The Art of Conflict & The Surprising Power of Swearing-SYSK Choice

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“Something you should know? Why a bump on the head may be a bigger deal than you realize.”

Then a better way to handle disputes, negotiations and conflicts in everyday life from one of the leading experts. I was mediating in a big political dispute, I had a meeting with the President of Venezuela and what I learned then and there

was that the greatest power that we have in a negotiation and any conflict situation

is the power not to react. Also, what's the connection between watching TV as a kid and going to jail? And profanity, people swear a lot, and still it can be shocking. The reason we can cause shock has to do with a signal of disrespect that we give. Say, by uttering a swear word in a polite context,

the people that we're talking to know that we know it's an offensive word and we're using it anyway. All this today on something you should know.

“We're talking about your relationship with Shopify and business.”

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The check-out with the world's best conversation.

The legendary check-out from Shopify, is just the shop of your website, a bit to social media, and over to you. That's the music for your ears. How do you react when it comes to shopping?

You can choose a real hip. Start it on Test No. 2 to find an Euro Pomona of Shopify.de/record. You're head on something, or someone hits you by accident, or maybe not by accident, but we've all taken hits to the head. And we tend to brush off those mild head traumas as no big deal,

but it turns out they may be more serious than you realize. Some years ago, the Wall Street Journal did a story on how undiagnosed head trauma could be a factor in homelessness, drug addiction, depression, and other emotional problems. So if you notice a change in mood or behavior in yourself,

or someone you know, after a hit to the head, you really should see a doctor, because treatments are often available, and you could save yourself a whole lot of trouble. And that is something you should know. Maybe you've heard the saying, or some variation of it,

that life would be so much easier if it weren't for people. Every day, we have to deal with people, prod them, argue with them, work with them, negotiate, and try to get along with them. And it's often difficult, particularly now, when it seems like we live in a time when people seem less courteous and accommodating.

Wouldn't it be great to be better able to deal with the people and the conflicts and the negotiations of life? Well, here to help you do that is William Eury. William is considered one of the leading experts on negotiation and conflict. He's consulted for the White House, the State Department, the Pentagon,

dozens of Fortune 500 companies, and he is author of a book called "Possible." How we survive and thrive in an age of conflict. I will even welcome to something you should know. It's a pleasure, Vice. So you've been looking at conflict and negotiation from all levels from high up

on top at the government level, all the way down, what is your take on this? Are we more polarized and conflicted in it? Is it today just more difficult dealing with people than it used to be? We need to put it in perspective if you actually ask most Americans, for example, the polls show that most Americans still believe that most Americans agree more than they disagree.

Most Americans believe it's possible to actually have to disagree in a agreeable fashion, and without being disagreeable, in a healthy, conflictual fashion.

“So I think there's hope for us and that's why I'm a possibleist.”

People often ask me, you know, after 25 years of wandering around dealing with some of the toughest conflicts from strikes, to boardroom battles, to family feuds, to wars, you know, are you

And I like to say, actually, I'm a possibleist.

I actually believe in human potential to deal with our differences, because I've seen it happen with my own eyes. I've seen people rise to the occasion, and conflict can bring out the worst in us, but it can also bring out the best in us, and I really do believe it's possible. Well, it's interesting that you say that people think we can live with our differences, and that we agree more than we disagree, because it doesn't seem that way a lot of the time.

It seems very much the opposite. That's true. That's true.

“And I think it's actually accentuated, amplified by the way in which we're communicating a lot”

of it through social media these days, and the algorithms of social media, they're looking for engagement and conflict, negative conflict, destructive conflict, enhances engagement. So they amplify it. And so it's both true, and the perception is probably even more so

than the reality, because the reality is I think most Americans, most people, just, you know,

want to get along with their neighbors, and we're not going to get rid of conflicts. Nor should we, because we need actually healthy conflict. It's good for relationships, it helps us grow, it helps us evolve. It's at the heart of our democracy. It's at the heart of our economy. But we need the choices really, not about whether to get rid of conflict or not, it's a weathered, we handle the conflict destructively through fights, through lawsuits, through

vicious arguments, who are not talking with each other's invention, or whether we can do it constructively by listening to each other, by honest, open dialogue and through constructive,

“creative negotiation. So when people have conflict, the assumption I think generally for those of us who”

are not in the business like you, think that if you have a conflict, what you now must do is resolve

it, that conflict is something to fix, and very often the fix is a compromise. We're neither one of us are going to get what we want. I'll take a hit, if you'll take a hit, and then we'll be okay. Yeah, so there's a story about two sisters, we're quarreling about an orange, and they they quarrel about the orange, so they decide, okay, we'll divide the orange in half, and one sister takes her half, and uses, you know, eats half the fruit, and throws away the peel, and the

other one takes her half, throws away the fruit and uses half the peel for baking a cake. You know, that's a compromise, right? They compromise on dividing it in half, but in fact, through creative negotiation, if you'd ask a simple question, why do you want the orange? Well, I want it for cooking, I want it for eating. Then you can end up with a whole peel for one

“and a whole fruit for the other, and I think that's the, that's the promise of negotiation,”

is to really make it into a creative exercise of using our full, you know, potential to look for ways, not just to divide up a fixed pie, but how do we expand the pie before we divide it up? Well, there does seem to be a difference between that kind of negotiation, where you're negotiating about something rather than disagreeing about your philosophy on life or your political views, because it seems like that's going to go nowhere. The thing that's missing is we think of

negotiation, or we think of dealing with conflict as talking, right? And I think actually negotiation is much more about listening. There's a reason why we're given two years in one mouth for a reason, which is to listen twice as much as we talk, and the most successful negotiators I know, and everyone is a negotiator. By the way, it's not like that's a specialty. Every one of us negotiates every day. If you think about it, it's just back and forth communication,

trying to reach agreement. You've got some issue, and you might be negotiating with your kid or your coworker, your colleague, or your friend, or a customer, but we're, in that broad sense of the term when I ask people, they say, "Well, we're going to go shit all the time." You're going to go shit with yourself. So in that broad sense of the term, what's missing to me is something that again is inherent in us, which is the ability to listen, to listen to your neighbor, to listen,

for example, if someone has a different political view, just listen to them hear them out, and then be curious. I would say what the best motto is, meet animosity with curiosity. In other words, just ask them some questions. Why do you think that's so? And that's the key is to be open, to be curious, ask questions, and to listen. Because what might happen? If I disagree with you politically, and I say, "So tell me why you believe that." What's the, what's the

hope for outcome? For one thing, at the underlying all of this, is human beings want respect.

is to see again. They want to be seen. They want to be heard. And if you hear them, and you're curious,

what I find is, they relax. They feel respected. Even if you don't agree with them, they feel like, "Oh, okay, you acknowledge that they have a point of view, maybe a valid point of view." Even if you disagree with it, there's a difference between agreeing and acknowledging the validity. You can acknowledge it. Yeah, you've got a point. If you can understand how you see it that way, I happen to see it differently. And then suddenly you're at a better relationship with each other.

So you can disagree without being disagreeable. And the point of the exercise can be, let's see if we can agree about where we agree and where we disagree. In other words,

second order agreement. We don't have to agree on everything. That's not what life's about.

You know, I'm going to have to apologize by training. And conflict is natural. It's part of life.

“We're going to always have disagreements. In fact, that's what makes things work,”

because we have diversity of perspectives. And that's where we can have a rich conversation. So it can be stimulating. Some of the best conversations I've had are with people with whom I profound disagreements. And you resist the urge to say, well, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That's the thing. I'd say the lesson I've learned most is that the biggest obstacle to getting what I want in a negotiation and any conflict situation, however small home work, wherever

the biggest obstacle is not what I think it is. You know, I tend to think we tend to think it's

that difficult person, you know, that difficult person on the other side of the table. Well, guess what? It's the difficult person on this side of the table. It's me. It's the person I look at the mirror every morning. It's our own very human, very natural, very understandable tendency to react. In other words, to act without thinking, to react out of fear, to react out of anger, to react out of unbridged. You know, some kind, it's a quick reaction. And as the old saying goes,

when you're angry, you will make the best speech. You will ever regret. And you'll send the best

“email you'll ever regret. And the key, what I found is to step back from the situation,”

pause. You don't react in that moment. It's the ability to go to a balcony. It's almost like you're negotiating on a stage. And part of you goes to a mental and emotional balcony, which is a place of calm and perspective where you can keep your eyes on the prize and see the larger picture. balcony is the foundation of successful negotiation. When people hear about negotiation, you know, a lot of people run the other way. And they think that a good negotiator, somebody who's

good at it is slippery. You know, it's the use car guy that's like, you know, he's got tricks. He's it's a tricking thing. It's not what you're talking about. I know that's a common perception of negotiation. And the thing I have to tell you is that having been in this business effort for many, many decades, the most successful negotiators I know, interestingly, what they prize the most is their reputation for honesty and fair dealing. Now why would that be? Because

after all, you know, you could, of course, you know, manipulate or deceive or be slippery. And yeah, you're likely you might put something over on someone once. But the thing is the word gets around. You get a reputation for being slippery. And then as we know with, you know, you know, like use cars or whatever, you know, no one wants to deal with you or if they're going to deal with you, they're going to deal with you at arms length. And there's certainly not going to share

their interest with you. But if they trust you and you're honest and you deal fairly with each other, people will open up. They'll tell you what they actually want. You're more likely to get a a superior deal. And that sense you're more able to expand the pie. Come up with an optimum deal. And you're able to do it faster because you can operate at the speed of trust, which is a lot faster. So they're, and you set yourself up for the next one because there are hundreds, thousands

of negotiations that we're going to engage in the course of our lives. So paradoxically enough,

“the best negotiators I know, that's what they price. Honesty, fair dealing, be trustworthy,”

be trust-willing. We're discussing the art of dealing with people in conflict in negotiation and in everyday life. And my guest is William Eury, author of the book "Possible," how we survive and thrive in an age of conflict. Of the Regency era, you might know it as the time when Bridget and takes place.

The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst

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the gowns, and all the scandal. Listen to Volker history, Regency era, wherever you get podcasts. If Bravo drama pop culture chaos and honest takes our year-level language, you'll want all about Terry H. podcast in your feed. Hosted by Roxanne and Chantal, this show breaks down real housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about. Roxanne's been spilling Bravo T since 2010, and yes, we've interviewed housewives

royalty like Countess Luan and Theresa Judays. Smart recap, insider energy, and zero fluff. Listen to all about Terry's podcasts on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, new episodes weekly. So, William, we often hear in terms of negotiating. We hear things like, "Well, we need a win-win outcome here. We need a win-win. Is that what we need a win-win?" We do need a win-win in the sense of "It's not polyanish" in the sense of, "Okay, you get

everything you want, and they get everything that they want." But a win means that you get your interest, your basic interest satisfied. They get their basic interest satisfied. And certainly

better than the alternative, because in the negotiation, you always want to think through what we

call your batma, which is BATNA, which stands for your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. You know, what are you going to do to satisfy your interest if, for some reason, you cannot reach a agreement. If you can't reach a agreement on this particular salary, you know,

“with your with a perspective job, are you going to go for another job? What's your alternative?”

Having a good batma gives you confidence gives you power in that negotiation. So, a genuine win-win is something that satisfies your interest better than you could by not negotiating, and better than they could by not negotiating. And I would even be more audacious these days, because I think we need to go for what I would call a triple win, or a win-win win, which is a win for both parties, but also a win for the surrounding community, you know, win for the family,

or a win for the workplace, or work for the work team, a win for the society. We need to pay attention

to those around us, and we need that third win, otherwise it's not sustainable.

It's sometimes, I don't know, you've ever been in that situation where when negotiations get difficult, and so it becomes more about just getting the other guy, like you just want to walk away and say screw you, and then if you do that, you oftentimes regret it, you know, it felt good in the moment, but it turned out to be not such a great strategy. That's exactly right. You know, it's kind of like, you know, they say about a marriage,

you know, you can be happy or you can be right, but you can't be both. And, and yeah, you can win, you know, you can win a battle, you know, and maybe feel good in the moment. But then

in the long term, these people, we have ongoing relationships, and even if we never see them again,

we have reputations, and they affect our other negotiations. So, yeah, in the end, it may feel

“temporarily more satisfied to say screw you. That's your initial reaction. That's why it's so important”

to be able to go to the balcony. That's why it's so important to kind of pause for a moment, because on the balcony, ask yourself, what's in my real interest here? You know, once, you know, I was engaged in a, I was mediating in a, in a big political dispute down in Venezuela, and I had a meeting with the President of Venezuela, and he got, I rated me, because for something he started shouting at me, shouting and shouting and shouting. And of course, I felt embarrassed,

I was flustered in front of his entire cabinet, and I felt like, you know, reacting, it's saying screw you, just like you're saying, whatever, but then I caught myself and I said, wait a minute, why am I here? I'm here to kind of calm the situation down here. I pinch the palm of my hand, which gave me a little temporary pain and the alert, just help me go to the balcony. And I realized, is it going to get me do any good to get into an argument with the President of

Venezuela? Is that going to help things? And I realized it wouldn't, so I just bit my thumb and I listened. And he proceeded to shout at me for, you know, 30 minutes, but I was just listening to him from that balcony perspective. And then, because I wasn't feeding him fuel, he kind of started to kind of whine down and I watched his shoulder sink his body language. And then he finally said, "Do me so, Yuri, what should I do?" And that is the sound of a human mind opening. And then I said,

you know, Mr. President, it's Christmas. Everyone's, you know, the family, you know,

country go to the balcony as it were. And proposed a truth. And he said, he looked at me from

when he said, you know what? That's a great idea. I'm going to propose that my next speech. And he clapped me on the back. His mood had completely shifted. And what I learned then and there was that the greatest power that we have in an negotiation, in any conflict situation, is the power not to react. But to go to the balcony instead, to stop, pause, ask what you really want. What's in your real interest? Yeah. Hard to do in the moment, but, but, you know, and that's

“it, you know, I think people have this sense that someone like you, someone who's an experienced”

negotiator has some special quality that you can do, you can get yelled at by the President of Venezuela for half an hour and and keep your cool. And most of us probably couldn't. And that there is some special, you know, say, "quad that you have." Well, and this is what I would say. I would say, I understand that, but we all have it. This is the secret. It's in every one of us. You can all think, you know, if you think about it, every one of us has our favorite ways of going to the balcony.

Some people, you know, just take a deep breath. You know, some people pinch the bottom of their hands, some people count to ten. Some people, you know, take a break. You know, I love to go for walks, walks in nature. They kind of like settle my nervous system. Some people like to go work out, go for a run, have a cup of coffee with a friend. Whatever it takes, just brings you back into a clear, calmer mood, where you can actually ask yourself the question of, "What do I really want

here? What's in my long-term interest? Is it really going to give me good if I get into an argument with my spouse or my business partner? What's really, what do I really want here? And what's going

“to get me there?" And that, I think, is essential. And that's in every one of us. It's our”

birthright. We're born with it. We just need to develop it. But in an negotiation where it's more like friends, husband, wife, lovers, that kind of thing where you go to the balcony because you're

upset and you don't want to say anything. And then there's often that tendency to never say anything,

to let it just kind of go. But it's still there. It's simmering, but it's so it's not right in the forefront anymore. And if you keep going to the balcony with all these things that are building up in the resentments building up, and you never say anything, it seems like a recipe for trouble. That's a great point. So this is the thing. When we are in conflict, we often fall into what I would call the 3A trap. The first day is a void. And that's, I'm not talking about a void in this here.

“You know, that's what you're talking about. Like you never bring it up. It's stews with you.”

It doesn't solve anything. The second day is a tack. You know, we go on the attack and you know,

and then we regret it because like an eye for an eye, we all go blind. Or, and the third day is for

accommodator of peas. We give in, which also doesn't, is not satisfying. So what's the way out of the 3A trap? It's actually to engage. It's actually lean into the situation. It's the exact opposite of avoiding. You just go to the balcony at first to think about what you want. But then you come off the balcony. You go back right on the stage, right? It's not like you stay on the balcony. You go back to the stage, but go back to the stage with your better self, knowing exactly what you want. You're going

to be much better able to achieve what you want. So it's about leaning into conflict with curiosity. It's about actually embracing conflict with creativity. It's about transforming conflict, changing the form of from destructive to constructive with collaboration. Well, you have such an interesting and distinctive and different view of conflict and negotiation and how to resolve all that. I really enjoy talking to you. William Yuris, been my guest.

He's considered one of the leading experts on negotiation and conflict resolution. He is consulted the White House, the State Department, the Pentagon, and he's author of a book called "Possible, How We Survive and Thrive in an Age of Conflict." And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks, William. Thanks, Mike. It's been a great pleasure.

Thank you for watching. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from the Longest Shortest Time, an award-winning

control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a

parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longer shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at Longest ShortestTime.com. Certainly, swearing today is much more acceptable than it used to be, almost to the point of it being mainstream. Is that a good thing? Doesn't swearing lose some of its value and effect if everybody does it and fewer people are offended by it? Or maybe the purpose of swearing has changed.

Well, here to take a look at why we swear and how swearing has changed and what the future holds for it

is Rebecca Roach. She is a senior lecturer in philosophy at Royal Holloway at the University of London

and author of a book for F. Sake. Why swearing is shocking, rude, and fun? I Rebecca welcome to

“something you should know. Hi, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So I would imagine that swearing”

has been around for as long as people have been talking. As long as there have been words, there have probably been swear words. There's a great book by Melissa Moore on swearing and she tells us in her book that there's instances of swearing on Roman toilet walls. So it has been around for quite a while. And swearing is only swearing if generally everybody agrees you shouldn't say it and that it's wrong. It's naughty, it's got something bad about it because if it isn't,

then it isn't swearing. Yeah, yeah, I think there's a few things that contribute to a word being a swear word. All cultures have taboos which are words or topics or behaviors that are sort of maybe not actually formally illegal but which are sort of frowned upon. People prefer you don't utter them or engage in them or whatever. And swearing is a form of taboos. In that we're not supposed to swear in polite company. Swear words themselves tend to focus on taboos topics. So around

the world, swear words tend to be words to do with toilet matters, sex, blasphemy, a few other things. It also tends to be language that we use to express emotion. You know when we're really angry or when we're surprised we might utter a swear word or when we're in pain as well. So there's this little cluster of, I can't have it gone through the whole lot but there's there's a cluster of

“features. I think that that make a word a swear word. In my lifetime, I have seen”

swear words become less shocking that over the last several decades it does seem. I can remember as a kid if if somebody had spray painted the f word on a wall, it would be a new story. It would be like people would be outraged. I see that all the time now. Nobody cares. It's like we've been desensitized to it. And the other example, I was talking the other day because your book had arrived and you know, if you can see the swear words on the cover of your book even though there's

asterisks. But there was a time where no book would ever do that but there's lots of books now that do that in their title. So it's not as shocking anymore to see it. It's just that there's

“just a like there. Well, he's swearing people seem to accept it more now, right? I think, well, I think”

there's a couple of things to say. So one is that the offensiveness of individual swear words,

rises and falls over time and it tracks what's most important culturally. So gone with the wind,

which, you know, the movie of gone with the wind, which was released in 1939. It contains that famous line, frankly, my dear. I don't give a damn. And at the time that was really shocking, you know, there was a discussion about whether that line should even be included in the movie and there was, you know, suggestions that maybe maybe rep but look at say, frankly, my dear, I don't give a hoot. So that was really regarded as quite powerful language. Whereas today,

that just sounds super tame. If you were going to remake that movie, you would have him say a different word. So I mean, you might view that as, you know, damn, it's obviously a blasphemy term and perhaps

like the US and the UK, we've become more secular over the years, not wholly secular, but more so. I mean, I'll read this swear words now, as you say, the F word and I guess generally words that have a sexual theme. But actually, before Victorian times, those words were less shocking. I mean,

they were still vulgar, but they weren't the powerful swear words that we think of them today.

“So I think that's one point. You know, the word, the individual words that shock us the most change”

changes over time. And I think today, if you, if you really wanted to cause a fence, then you would, you would utter sort of racist language or homophobic language, you know, what we'd call slurs. So the sort of language that denigrates an entire group of people. Whereas a few decades ago, you could sort of drop a bit of casual racist into conversation, even polite conversation. Do you know if there have been recent surveys to gauge people's temperature about whether they

like to hear other people swear? Because I, it really seems situational to me like, if I'm with people

or if I'm with my wife and where somewhere where people are just swearing like crazy,

it's offensive and really unnecessary. But I sometimes swear too. So, but I do it with certain

“people and I don't, but strangers hear me and, but I just wonder how do people generally feel about it?”

So there's an organization in the UK called Offcom, which is sort of a broadcasting regulator. So they will, they will find TV stations for broadcasting swearing inappropriately, things like that. And once every decade or so, they do a public survey to find out what people's attitudes are towards different words. And it's really interesting to go and look at these, you know, the different reports over the years, because you can see that people's tolerance for slurs,

you know, racist, sexist, orthophobic, ablist language, has, you know, people much less tolerant of that than they would have been a few decades ago. People in these surveys that Offcom conduct say that they are, they're more tolerant of swearing when it's sort of unplanned, you know, like if somebody hits their thumb with a hammer by accident and swears, they're sort of unthinkingly, that that's more acceptable to people than when they're sort of choosing their words consciously.

So, you know, there's a bit of tolerance for just as sort of impulsive swearing. People are, some of it's just common sense, people are less tolerant of repeated swearing than, you know, sort of one-off instances. It is not uncommon to hear people swear a lot. And an example I go to a gym and there's, it's often these two guys in there. Every other word, as they're talking to each other, is the F word.

And it has two effects on me. One is, these guys must not be that bright that they can't think of other words to say besides the F word. But also, it loses, the swearing loses some of it's pizzazz because if you swear so much that every other word is a swear word, it has no, it look, the impact has gone. There is evidence for what you've just said there. The thought that the more you swear, the less power the swear words have.

A psychologist in the UK called Richard Stevens and his colleagues ran a few experiments, which found that swearing helps us with stand pain. So, they had their subjects, hold a hand in a bucket of icy water, which apparently is painful. If you keep your hand there for long enough. And they had people either, remain silent, see how long they could hold a hand there, or they could say benign words like table, or they could swear. And what they found is that

when people were allowed to swear, they were able to hold a hand in the icy water for longer. And the thought was that swearing, there's some sort of chemical explanation to do with,

“I think it's to do with the release of adrenaline when we swear that can help us with stand pain.”

But they did found that this only works if people are fairly selected about when they swear in, you know, in their day-to-day lives. So, people, it's where all the time don't enjoy this benefit. It's just, it's just too, I guess, it just becomes another part of language, right? The words, as you say, don't have the power anymore.

Well, I've always wanted to go up to someone like that and say, do you guys realize what you're,

because language like that, there's kind of a connection, but people who swear like that might hit

you, you know, that they're not dainty people. Yeah, this is something that as an American, a late American philosopher Joel Feinberg, a curator, a huge book on offense and how the law should get involved in situations of where people are offended. And one thing he says is that, you know, any breach of etiquette, which includes swearing in a polite context, can alarm us, right? Because we have this fear that, "Oh God, if this person is going to break this rule, what else might

“they do?" So there's this sort of anything goes attitude, right? But I think also, I mean,”

it is quite complex. I think especially when it comes to younger people teenagers, they all reach an age where they want to sort of, they want to push boundaries and show that they're willing to break rules and signal this about themselves and, and swearing can be a fairly benign way to do that, you know, it's probably, if a 13-year-old wants to show that they're not baby anymore, then checking a few swears into conversation is probably preferable to some of the things that

they could do to show that they don't care about the rules, right? Well, and what you were saying

about, you know, people who swear less often might, my dad never swore. Except, maybe I can maybe

think of three times in his life that he said something, the S word or something. And boy, did you notice? Because he never swore his whole life. But so if he actually resorted to swearing, you know, you better pay attention to something strong. And it worked. Yeah, yeah. And that, you're reminding me of an anecdote in the army where swearing was apparently very common. The command to get your rifles would generally be, as part of a drill, a company by the F word.

And then on one occasion, when it wasn't a drill, there were actually an actual need to get their rifles. The command was given without the F word. So it was just get your rifles. And that mission of the swear word had the same effect that you're describing when hearing your father swearing. So it's just, wow, there's something, there's something going on, right? It's a diversion from the norm. So it's going to interesting. It's almost the reverse. But in both cases, there's a signal

that something strange is going on, right? One of the interesting things I find about swear words is what they have in common with Christmas carols. In the sense that there are hardly ever any

nuance. And I've always assumed that the reason that is is, you know, you can come up with a new word

for anything. But it's very hard to come up with a new word and create a taboo around it.

“Like, it's hard to build that up. So that's why you don't get many new ones.”

Yeah. Yeah. And that reveals something really interesting. I think about what does give swearing it's power that it's not about the words. It's not about those particular sounds in that particular order or those particular letters in that particular order. I think what we, the reason we can cause shock when we utter a swear words inappropriately has to do with a signal of disrespect that we give. Say, by uttering a swear word and a polite context, the people that we're talking

to whom know that we know it's an offensive word and we're using it anyway, regardless of what they might think about it. And so the message they receive from that is that we don't respect them very much. We might even be contemptuous of them. And we signal all that just from our choice of using a particular word. Now you can invent a new word and say, let's make this into a swear word. But in order for that to happen, you would have to, you know, do quite a bit of social engineering.

You'd have to get everybody on board with, okay, like, whenever anyone says this word, they don't respect you, which is one thing to recognize rationally, but to have that emotional connection with it, you know, when somebody utteres a swear word unexpectedly in a completely inappropriate context, it's not that just it, we rationally say that they've said something that we shouldn't, that they shouldn't have said. We also respond emotionally, right? This is sort of hell clutching response,

you know, like, oh my god, what did they just say? You know, it's sort of respond emotionally

“and there's, and that's much more immediate. So I think that's quite difficult to engineer.”

Well, it's interesting, too, that when you say a swear word, like if you're mad at somebody, you throw out the F word or the S word or whatever it is, you're not referencing the actual meaning

sound of the word that's expressing anger or whatever, but it has nothing to do with the actual

“meaning of the word. Yeah, yeah, that's true. There was a pay per written a few decades ago by a”

linguist called James McCorley and he was writing under a pseudonym, which I'm not going to say, because it will sound like a swear word. But he wrote this whole paper about the F word and his

argument was that it basically, there's two ways of using it. There's one way in which you can use

it sort of more or less like a regular verb. And then there's another way of using it where it's just it's kind of like a screen. It's just your sort of letting off steam and he analyzed that use of it and and showed that it has all these weird properties. It just doesn't behave linguistically like other words. So yeah, I mean, they have this double life because they do have it. They are in a sense words that refer to to be topics. But as you say, they're also the way that we use them

is often non-sensical in that the linguist Jeffrey Nunberg has said swear words are more like screens than utterances. Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. You're just

making a sound and everyone has come to agree that that sound has this taboo meaning to it that

“makes it all the more powerful. But it's just a sound. Well, yes and no. So I think it's not just the sound”

of it. It's something else. It's the intention, the the signal of disrespect that we give out when we use it. Which is actually, I mean, it's more complicated than that because I think it's it's not that the sound is irrelevant. You know, swear words have to be well suited for the way that we use them. So they have to be things that's kind of reasonably satisfying to utter when you're in pain or when you're angry or whatever. So that's probably not going to be

a need that is satisfied by a word that is eight syllables long and contains lots of sort of soft consonant sounds. I mean, that's just not going to be very satisfying to say. So I think the sound is not irrelevant, but also it's not it's not simply that we object to certain sounds. Yeah, but a lot of I mean, I don't know if a lot, if you say if you're mad at somebody and you say FU, I don't even know what that means. When you take it literally, it has really no meaning and yet

you know exactly what it means in the context that you're not just used. Well, one theory here is that that expression evolved from religious language. You might want at one time have said, I mean, this is what we were talking about, the gone with a wind example, saying something like damn you does make sense. You could explain what is meant by that, but you know, the thought is at some point, that sort of language became less offensive and so it sort of saying that expression

was just less satisfying. So the way that people responded is to say, okay, well, you know, the word damn is not very powerful anymore. So let's replace it with something that is so you then end up with the expression, as you say, FU, which means no sense, but we kind of know, you know, somebody says that to you, you're not left scratching ahead wondering what they mean. You know,

there's a sense in which we know exactly what it means. Okay, but but but I'm always dumbfounded.

I have no idea when you take the F word and put the word mother in front of it. I have no idea what that means. People use it all the time, but what is what is that? There is an explanation of what that means, which I'm not going to give because I don't know if I can remember it correctly.

“There are people that write on this very interestingly, though. But yeah, I think what you're saying”

there illustrates a really interesting point about taboos, which is that it often doesn't matter if you don't know what it means. There's a book by a couple of, I think there's a collegeist, Alan and Baridge, who wrote a book about taboos and one thing they say is this, they use the example of the taboos of throwing salt, if you spill salt throwing a pinch of salt over your shoulder. And you know, they make the point that plenty of people do this having no idea why, you know,

what's the story there? And the story is that it's, you know, they used to be this spiritual significance to salt. And it was also sort of super expensive. And when you spill it, you used to throw it over your shoulder to land in the eye of the devil. Which kind of makes sense? I mean, it invokes questionable beliefs about what's going on behind you. But it makes sense, you know, you can tell a story about what's going on. But that's still that taboos, or that ritual, still has meaning to people. Even though the original story about it is long forgotten. And the same is true of swear words, I think. We care about the power that they give us to express certain things. But in plenty of cases, we don't know, even, as the example you've just mentioned illustrates. We might not even know what they mean.

because swearing is what people do. I've been speaking with Rebecca Roach, who is a senior lecturer in philosophy at Royal Holloway at the University of London and author of the book for F-sake.

Why swearing is shocking, rude, and fun. And if you'd like to read it and like to know what the real title is, you can click on the link to Amazon in the show note. Thank you, Rebecca.

Thank you. It's been great talking to you.

“If you want to keep your kids out of jail, turn off the TV. Researchers in New Zealand say they found a direct correlation between too much TV and childhood and criminal convictions in adulthood.”

They followed a group of 1,000 children and tracked their TV habits. The more TV they watched between the ages of 5 and 15,

the more likely they were to develop anti-social behavior and wind up with a criminal record.

And their odds increased by 30%, with every additional hour of TV watched per weeknight.

“And that is something you should know. We need your help to grow our audience. It is the best thing you can do to help support this podcast,”

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