Why Siblings Turn Out So Different & Why Talking to Strangers Helps

a $5,000 bottle.

Not as much as you think, then navigating the complex world of sibling relationships.

Getting to know your siblings as adults, not just the roles and navel they had as kids, might stand you in good stead because the research shows if you get close and then stay close at an old age. It has a really great benefit if you're well-being a happiness. That seems like a good thing to aim for. Then what stress does to your body and how you confide it. And your interactions with strangers,

they may seem insignificant. But there's so many times when I've had a laugh or I've learned something that just seen a new perspective or a new way of living. And a few times, it's changed my career path more than once.

“All this today on something you should know.”

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at Shopify.com/aU. Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with my curothers.

When you look at why, you can buy a bottle of wine for $5 or $500. So what's the difference

“Well, not much. And that's what we're going to start with today. I'm my curothers and”

this is something you should know. In blind taste tests, average wine drinkers often cannot tell the difference between a very expensive wine and a very inexpensive wine. And sometimes they even prefer the cheaper wine. But here's where it gets really interesting. In one study, researchers scan people's brains while they drank the wine. And when participants were told that a wine was expensive,

the pleasure centers in their brain actually lit up more even when it was the exact same wine as the cheaper wine. In other words, the price didn't just change what they thought. It changed what they experienced. It doesn't mean expensive wine is a scam. High prices can reflect things like rarity, aging and craftsmanship. But for most of us, a big part of what makes wine taste better is what we believe about it. And that is something you should

know. Your sibling relationships are often the longest relationships you'll ever have. They can last a lifetime. And yet they can be complicated. Sometimes close, sometimes distant, sometimes completely silent. So how do those relationships shape who you become? Why do siblings raised in the same home often turn out so different? And is there something about

having siblings that only children miss out on? My guest has spent a lot of time exploring these questions. Katherine Carr is the middle of three sisters. She's host of a podcast called Relatively, which dives into sibling relationships. And she's author of a book called Who's the favorite? The loving, messy realities of sibling relationships. Hey, Katherine,

“welcome to something you should know. Thank you so much for having me. So where do we start”

to unpack this topic? Because some people have great sibling relationships. Some people have not so great sibling relationships. Some people have no siblings. So where's a good starting point to start this discussion? Well, I suppose 80% of us do have a sibling. And the other 20% are looking on a bit mystified about why their friends talk about their siblings in the way they do or their partners or their colleagues at work. So I think whether you have them or

you don't, 100% of us are sort of affected by them. And if I could tell you a story to start, it was during the pandemic that an ex colleague was on the phone with me. I was talking about my two sisters. And I'm the middle of three goals. And I was saying, you know, I should just make a podcast about them. Their lives are so full of drama. And she said, I wouldn't do that. It would be a bit strange. But you should make a podcast about siblings. Because did you know that it's

potentially the longest relationship of your life? And this is how I frame the whole way that I think about brothers and sisters? This idea that you can know someone for 80, 90, maybe 100 years before

Well, it is interesting that you do have that relationship for longer than any other. But

so many, I mean, I would put myself in this category. We kind of went our separate ways, not that we don't talk to each other and see each other occasionally, but we're not close, like I suspect, maybe you and your sisters are, you know, our family. We just were all in different parts of the country. We talk on the phone. But you know, there's not a lot of influence there,

“or doesn't seem to be. Yeah. No, and I think it's interesting when your adults, usually early”

adults, there's a leaner time for sibling relationships I've learned. You usually grow up with your siblings, although I didn't grow up with all of mine. And often in midlife, people are pulled back together for one big reason. And that's to look after their parents as they get older, or to consider how to provide care for their parents as they get older. And then to maybe grief of them when they die. And a large part of the research that I've read seems to suggest that if you have a

different progressed as adults, beyond the ways that you interacted as children, where you can be quite stuck in your roles, you might have labels about which one in the family or the funny one or the clever one. And it can be quite too dimensional. When you are pulled back together in midlife to deal with big and difficult things, that's when real arguments can happen and a strangement is a great risk. So it seems to me that maybe getting to know your siblings as adults,

full their full characters, if you like, not just the roles and labels they have had as kids. Before you get to that point, might stand you in good stead, because the research shows if you get close and manage that chapter and then stay closer into all the rage, it has a really great benefit for your well-being and happiness. So that seems like a good thing to aim for.

You know, that's really something I'd never really considered, but we do kind of pitch and whole

our siblings, like, as you said, you know, he was the funny one and he was the, but we never let go of that, that we kind of still, we still carry those labels, even though they probably don't necessarily apply so much later in life. Yeah, and it's funny, isn't it? Because you're carrying a label around as somebody who's being compared to two or three or four other individuals in this great big world and you're identity as relative to those other people, your siblings,

somehow feels very deep and sometimes quite sharp and yet let's say, if you're at work and somebody said, you know, Mike, I'd really love you to present the company accounts this year and you thought yourself, I'm not very good at math, I'm not as good at math as my brother is. That comparison's sort of meaningless in the world because your boss at work has asked you to do this job, he thinks

“you're good enough, but I think we still do carry this strange relative comparative thing”

with our siblings that's quite hard to shake. And I also think it's quite interesting that often we don't exhibit the behaviors which show those labels until we're back together. So even if we might have these ideas secretly about ourselves and about our siblings and how we are compared to them out in the big world, let's say, usually it's not evident until or unless we go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving or Easter and whoa, you can really see it then, people slot back in

like into their parts. I think one of the big questions that people have about siblings is why children can grow up together in the same house with the same parents and turn out so differently. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? When you have your own children, you're so surprised by that, even though it's true of all children everywhere, they're all different each other. I suppose there's lots of different reasons. One is the way that DNA is shared and I'm not a biologist, but I know that the amount

of DNA you can share with the full sibling can vary. You can share as much DNA with a full sister

as you do with the first cousin and maybe less with another one of your sisters. That's just the

“way it works. And so sometimes I think if you don't gel or click with one of your siblings,”

maybe there's a really simple biological reason for that. That's number one. But then number two, there's a kind of shared, what's called shared environment theory. And I like to think that like a river, I like these pictures, which is, as if each child is born, they're sort of

the river. But it's a different body of water, it's a different day, the weather is different.

“And if you think about it in terms of the family, what that looks like is your parents might be older or”

tighter. You might have moved house, lost a family pet. The family may be richer or poorer. Someone may be sick. There's so many different things that can change the environment in which that child arrives and then grows up. Not to mention the fact that they may have no children above them. They may be in an adult environment when they're born, put in the river. Or there may be four other kids who welcome them when they come home from hospital. So really, it's impossible

for us to siblings, even though we share a lot and the paradoxes is no one else that can really go back there with you other than your siblings. Even when they do, they're not really going back to your childhood. We have such main character energy, we're all going back to our own individual childhoods. I know there's been a lot written and talked about regarding birth order. And I also know a lot of it has been debunked to that just because you're the oldest doesn't necessarily

“mean this and just because you're the youngest doesn't necessarily mean that. But what about birth order?”

What do we know is true? You're, I mean, you're totally right. There's nothing deterministic about it.

So if you are the first born it doesn't sort of mean therefore these things will happen in your

life or you'll be this kind of person. That said, I mean there are some studies that show that first borns and this is Western Central again tend to score slightly higher in IQ tests. And the reasons for that because I've described all of those other environmental things might simply be more resources, more time money and attention given to the first born. Or a greater expectation that that child as their first might sort of embody the family narrative or carry a flag for the

family and achieve on behalf of the family. If you see what I mean, kind of represent them in the

“world. And what's really interesting in studies where they look across lots of families are not just”

within one hierarchical family, is that if sadly the oldest child dies, often the next child who sort of becomes, although they might not describe themselves like that, the de facto only child, then goes on to score similarly in IQ tests and achieve similarly in their careers if you're taking certain markers as indicators of success, going to good jobs and earn good money.

So there does seem to be something about being the first born, for example. I will say another

culture, of course, if you're the first born boy in some parts of the world, you might not score highly on those IQ tests because you might be taken out of education early to go and work to contribute to the family. So it really is culturally dependent as well. I'm curious how gender the gender of siblings plays a role in how their relationship goes in just a moment. Hey, it's Hilary Frank from the Longest Shortest Time, an award-winning podcast

about parenthood and reproductive health. We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages, but you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships, and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app, or at Longest ShortestTime.com. I'm speaking with Katherine Carr, she's author of the book,

who's the favorite, the loving, messy realities of sibling relationships. So Katherine, what about the mix of boys and girls, sisters and brothers? Does it matter or are sibling siblings and they just do what they do? They just do what they do. There's a study at the University of Utah that looks at sort of rebellious teenage behaviour, and Dr. Sean Whitman, who's the guy who did that, he concluded that gender really does matter for a number of reasons. His overarching

conclusion is that sister sister relationships tend to be closer, generally and over time. And certainly, as I was saying at the beginning, like in old age, let's imagine we end up in a care home together with our siblings, sisters there tend to be closer. Followed by sister brother, relationships, and then brother brother relationships tend to be he finds more conflictual and less close. The really interesting thing about his study, which, as I said, looks at rebellious behaviour,

is that more than gender or age gap or anything like that, it's when kids hit puberty that matters.

and hits puberty at exactly the same time as the girls, because that's what tends to happen with

boys and girls. So it's something about being at the same developmental stage, which helps with closeness, which might explain why so many twins, I mean, there's lots of other reasons, but feel particularly close. And it might also explain why in early adulthood, as I said, when we're going out into the world and trying to shed our childhood identities, we often go into different life stages, get married or get a job or buy a dog or find a partner, and you can sort of leave

each other behind at that stage in your twenties, you know, you can feel like you're catching up or dragging and siblings often then feel very distant, maybe for the same reason. So that

“research really fascinates me, but I will say one thing that I think sister sisters being close”

over time, my theory, is that that is partly to do with care, because all the studies show that

care for elderly parents is still really gendered and that women do the line share of it, daughters, sisters. So maybe there's something about the girls in a family and the emotional day, but they end up doing all the physical care in the end of doing, bringing them into intimacy, if you see what I mean. Yeah, well, that happened in my family. My sister, there are four boys in a girl and when my mother got very sick, it's not even like we talked about it much. My sister

just kind of assumed the role of caregiver. She just assumed it, and there's also that issue that that we had in our family, too, where my older brother and I were our year apart, and then

“there was a five-year gap and my parents had three more kids. And so we were never really that close”

with the younger three, because five years growing up is a big difference. To really big difference, even outside of sipping groups, people still say non-sensically, sometimes, until they're really quite old, about people they were at school with. Oh, they were in the grade below the year below. Like that matters when you're 28. People still say it, but you're right. I mean, the age gap thing is so interesting. A lot of the studies about it, cheeringly, as a woman who's had babies,

and do tend to focus on recovery and a good age gap for a woman to kind of get over one pregnancy before embarking on another. But if you're looking at the ways that siblings influence each other, you talked about that right at the beginning. And sibling relationships have been described to me as the

“missing part of psychanalysis. If you're looking at influence, then anything more than four years”

starts to be really tricky to sort of track influence according to research. The two and three year, quote unquote typical age gap, you can really see the modelling and the imitating that goes on between the little and the bigger. So it makes sense to me that you felt, I don't know if you did,

but it sounds like you might have felt like to you two groups. I have always remembered. I don't

know where it comes from, but that somehow that there's a stigma about only children that, you know, you really should have more than one because then they learn social skills or, I mean, I don't know what the arguments are. But what does the science say about families where there are siblings and versus families where there are only children? I knew all the stereotypes, I know all the stereotypes about only children and they're largely negative, right? And then when I looked into it and where

those stereotypes came from, it's almost like a joke, I couldn't believe it. It's this researcher in inverted commas and then he was a contemporary of Freud in the 19th century late Victorian era and he was in the states and he had a very free-ranging childhood growing up with cousins and siblings and animals and he concluded that was good, that's the way kids should grow up and then when he got a bit older he did a piece of investigating into it. He asked various schools around the

states to send cases of peculiar and exceptional children and these could be children with a whole load of different things going on and they sound very Victorian and old fashioned to us now like cleft palate may be or glutany or nervousness or I mean really a funny list of things and when these bits of evidence again in inverted commas came back this guy Granville Hall was his name. He concluded that a greater number than average of these peculiar or exceptional children

were only children and so he concluded if you were an only child you were more likely to be peculiar or exceptional. It's so far away from scientific research you can't even imagine but it's sort of

stuck and then because the great depression followed quite swiftly after he'd published his research

“and having an only child was could be a symbol of not having enough money to have any more children”

so there was another stigma to add on to his silly research. These stereotypes are so deeply embedded even though research after research after research paper has proven almost the opposite that only children while they might struggle a little bit socially to begin with because they've not been in an environment all the time with other children like siblings might be. By the age of 12 it's all even doubt and the scores are pretty much equal and more than that were as siblings

can take each other for granted that they're always going to be there and they can be you know

play a bit faster and lose to each other's feelings and be a bit unkind and just think well they're blood that they're not going anywhere. Only children don't take relationships with friends that they make for company for granted at all so they can actually be better at nurturing and keeping and respecting friendships than kids with siblings. It's so interesting that it's almost the reverse of what you might assume. What about sibling relationships that we haven't

“talked about yet do you think is important because it's a subject we don't talk about a lot in”

general and I'm sure I've missed something so so what have I missed? I don't want to be bleak at the

end but I would like to talk about bereavement as the real big one because if 80% of us have a sibling then you can do the maths on how many of us will lose a sibling and they call those people who've lost a brother or a sister that forgotten mourners and my looking into that took me to the poetry of words for earth and to all other sorts of places and it made me really really really think because and here's the takeaway that I'd love people to think about. These relationships are

so unusual, they're unique. No other relationship in our life really goes from vertical to horizontal from hierarchical to peer. We don't generally sort of do that in life. They evolve so much and if we lose our sibling as adults let's say when we've become equal and yet we have this hinterland, this kind of huge shared, complicated past. You might lose a big chunk of your history or a big bucket of your memories and this horizontal grief people just don't allow for it. They

ask the sibling to take care of the parent who's lost the child or the child who's lost the parent and they don't look left and right at this person and it's just described in one of the books I read as if Africa's vanished off the map overnight. Your whole landscape completely changes and it's seismic and I don't think we think about it enough and it is a bit downbeat so I don't

“want to make people feel depressed with that but I think it's important as well. Well this whole”

topic of sibling dynamics and relationships over time, it affects so many of us yet we don't talk about it much so I appreciate you sharing all you know about it. Katherine Car's been my guest. She is Katherine Car's been my guest and she's author of the book Who's the Favorite, the loving, messy realities of sibling relationships and there is a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Katherine this was really interesting thank you for sharing it. Thank you so much. My I really

enjoyed talking about that and I thought your questions were spot on. Growing up you were probably told don't talk to strangers and that idea tends to stick even as adults when we interact with strangers we often treat those conversations as trivial just small talk that doesn't really matter but what a satisfaction is wrong. There's growing research showing that even brief interactions with strangers can have measurable effects boosting your mood reducing feelings of loneliness and even improving

your overall sense of well-being. In other words those quick casual exchanges may be doing far more than you realize. My guest has spent years studying this. Jillian Sandstrom is a professor in the psychology of kindness at the University of Sussex. Her research has been featured in the New York Times the Wall Street Journal in the Washington Post and she is author of a book called "Once Upon a Stranger," the science of how small talk can add up to a big life.

Hi Jillian welcome to something you should know. Hi thanks so much for having me. Sure.

through the day and part of that is to interact with strangers but sometimes they're fun but oftentimes they're very simple and they're very quick and they're over with and you don't think about them again

“and that's kind of how I think about it is that I don't think a lot about them but you clearly do so”

explain that. Yes I do. Gosh there's so many places to start an answering that question. I guess one place to start is to say I think you're right that most conversations with strangers are nothing special maybe just sort of average but there's so many times when I've had a laugh or I've learned something someone has recommended something. I've found out about new opportunities. I've just seen a new perspective or a new way of living and yeah every once in a while a few times

it's changed the course of my life. It's changed my career path more than once. So I think

there's a whole range of things and you know there doesn't always have to be something that comes

from it. I think it's a shared moment of humanity regardless of whatever else happens and that and itself is meaningful. Okay well that's a good answer but when you say it's valuable and meaningful you mean sometimes it's valuable and meaningful because sometimes it seems pretty valueless and meaning less. I guess fair enough like like I said not you know most probably the average conversation is average right but I actually think it still matters because I think the cumulative

effect of it speaking from my personal experience now having talked to hundreds and hundreds of strangers now I feel like the cumulative value just knowing that I could talk to pretty much anyone and have a decent conversation that adds up to me walking around the world differently feeling a little safer more trusting and more positive about humanity. So even though most of what's contributing to that is just sort of average conversations that cumulative effect requires all those average conversations.

Yeah well I've always thought of it more this way that you know in order to make a friend you

have to walk the path which starts with that kind of stranger interaction thing nobody can be a friend until you talk to him first as a stranger so you kind of have to go through that but that that in itself is not all that meaningful it's just it's a chapter in the book that you have to get through. That's kind of a cynical way to think of I mean that's definitely true because you know putting everyone that you know unless you're related to them they start it off as a stranger so

you're right that any friend that we have started as a stranger but I don't think we have to think about it in that kind of instrumental way like I think most strangers are not going to turn into friends and that's okay that just having the small human moments of connection is valuable they don't have to turn into anything else. Yeah well I didn't mean to be cynical because I

“share your view I just but I think that that's how a lot of people look at it it's a it's a kind”

of a transactional thing that you kind of have to do and I was thinking about this because I knew we were going to talk because I this weekend was in a situation where I went to a funeral and then

the party after the funeral for someone I've never met didn't know my wife my wife knew the

knew the daughter of this woman but not really well we kind of went in place of someone else who couldn't go they were out of town so we said well we'll go kind of go in your on your behalf and that's kind literally did not know a single person at this party after the funeral and everyone's talking about Peggy oh my gosh Peggy was so great and I wouldn't know Peggy if I tripped over her and so I had nothing to contribute to the conversation I still got along fine

and talk to some people but it was it was it was a weird situation because I had nothing in common and and as we were talking before we started you know I can talk to anybody for 20

“minutes that's what I do for a living and I'm very comfortable doing it but it sometimes feels a”

little weird and I think everybody has those weird stranger interactions where like you're just not in sync you're not like it doesn't work and you still get me out of here so absolutely and what you're describing sounds like probably the hardest like that that sounds like in a particularly difficult situation because you can't you don't want to change the topic right everyone's there to talk about Peggy so you can't be like so what do you do for fun you know like it's just it's a

even if they've never met so they probably were able to connect much more easily but yeah I mean

I've had situations like that you know I've talked to so many strangers now I'm like I can I I've got this and I went to a party for you know someone that I didn't know that well I didn't know anybody else who was there and I was put at a table with some people and I thought no problem but I could not could not figure out how to connect with them and I thought you know I've lost I've lost it like what's going on here and then the person who invited me to the party

introduced me to someone at another table and we instantly connected and hit it off and I was like okay

“sometimes you know it's two people right so it's I think that's why it's tricky right”

you know it's both people have to be willing to put in the effort and you know

and what they usually are because no one wants an awkward conversation right so both people are trying but sometimes it just doesn't work that's okay yeah sometimes it just doesn't work but why do you suppose it is because I think this is true that people like you know how you go to a party where like you did you don't really know anybody a lot of us feel like nobody really wants to talk to me or like I have nothing to contribute and yet people wouldn't be

there unless they were willing to talk I mean why would you go to a party and sit in the corner by yourself and not want to talk to anybody but there is this reluctance to strike up a conversation and I wonder why psychologists have done a lot of research that seems to suggest that humans just have this fundamental need to belong right like it's really really important to us that we feel valued and seen and accepted and all that kind of stuff so it feels really

high stakes any kind of social thing and and research suggests like we actually

“most of us think that we're worse than average when it comes to chatting with people so I think”

there's a lot of fear involved right we fear that we don't know how to do this and that that matters because belonging matters so much but the good news is that that we we do worry way too much so there's more and more research my colleagues and I have done some research on something

called the liking gap and what we found is we asked people to talk to people that they'd never

met before and afterwards they thought that they they liked their conversation partner more than they thought their conversation partner liked them so basically what we found is people like you more than you think yeah that's nice to know that's nice to know and there's lots of lots of similar research showing you know we worry more about giving someone a compliment or doing something kind for someone or offering advice so most of the time these kind of things are more

appreciated and less awkward than we think they're going to be so it feels like we have this sort of general sort of distrust of our own competence when it comes to these kind of social things

“I think one of the things people struggle with is that first hi I'm Bob how are you”

that that like breaking the ice I guess is the hardest part because once you're in a conversation you're in a conversation and and theoretically you couldn't maneuver in that but it's starting it off that seems to be a problem do you have some suggestions or advice on how to do that better yeah I mean I think you're I think you're right and I think it's just not the norm at least not in many places to talk to people that you don't know and so when we do it I think there's that

moment at the beginning where people are a bit confused and maybe even concerned right they're like who are you do I know you what do you want what is happening right now and so there's that moment of just the other person trying to figure out what's going on and I think to some extent if you sort of accept that that's going to happen and just keep going a little bit usually you end of getting to a point where people realize you're just being friendly and then everything's okay

but I think there are some shortcuts that get you past that so and I think you know there's if you provide people if your conversation starter provides people with a reason why you're talking to them then you get to skip that awkwardness so I talk in my book about three different ways that I've I've reflected on how I tend to start conversations and there's three different kind of main strategies so they spell the word quick so the QU is for question that I see is for incoming

and the K is for kindness so asking someone a question about you know they're tattoo or they're airplane earrings or you know the t-shirt for the race that they've just run in or that kind of they people are generally happy to tell you about themselves and that can sort of skip the awkwardness

about the weather but you know comment or commenting on you know their t-shirt which is you know

for a band that you are a fan of or you know making comment on what they're reading those kind of things you know people understand why you've reached out or giving someone a compliment offering them some help or directions all those kind of things might help you get past that little awkward moment that often starts the conversation and sometimes I mean it just seems that people don't want to put in the effort I mean not in a selfish way it's just like it's just you're not in the mood

you don't maybe you're tired you just don't want to put in the effort to have a conversation you just rather stay by yourself you know I get that reluctance to not want to reach out but sometimes it helps past the time you know like if you're standing in a line somewhere and it's really boring and you're getting frustrated if you just turn and talk to the person standing next to you it helps past the time it helps you not get so frustrated right or if you're in a waiting room

at the doctor's office and you're feeling a bit anxious because you're getting a test results or something you chat with someone else in the room past the time flies and you don't think so much

“about your anxiety so I think it helps get you out of your own head yeah well that brings up an”

interesting point because that makes a lot of sense but what a lot of people do now is whip out their phone and don't look at anybody or talk to anybody and they're in their own little bubble yeah and I enemy obviously that makes sense because the phone is a full of entertainment right I had someone asked me that once they said why would I talk why would my daughter talk to a stranger when she can pull it her phone and watch the most interesting people on the world in the

world on TikTok and that's a hard thing to to counteract but the thing that I think about is there's more than one thing because I've come to enjoy it so much that it's just fun for me like I know if I push past the little bit of you know reluctance that's still there or you know must are a little bit of energy that I'm likely to enjoy it but also I feel like it's doing something it's putting something positive into the world because we have fewer touch points we have

fewer opportunities to engage in these kind of interactions because we're doing more things online we're working from home you know we can go to the self checkout at the grocery store so we don't have as many human touch points and I think that that like if you multiply that and you think of what that means long term I don't like where that's heading you know I don't know how we work together to solve the world's problems if we're too scared to talk to our colleague because we've

never had practice talking to a stranger we've never had practice you know finding our way to

conversation so I feel like having these kind of conversations is really important to sort of build our social skills so that we can use them in other places where they're really important like you want to find you know thinking of young people who want a date or you know find a romantic part or get married someday how are you going to go on a date if you can't talk to someone you know

“like so you need to have ways to practice those skills so that when you're in the kind of situation”

that really matters that you don't feel so uncomfortable and I just think it's a really human meaningful thing to do for our world you know I think it it it makes people feel more trusting of each other and that feels really really important right now. I think there just is this default thing in fact I just made I think it was in an interview not long ago someone was talking about

some research where people who were on a commuter train who never looked or talked to each other

were asked to do that and pretty much everybody came away thinking this was great and and but yet nobody ever thought to do that they thought I'm just going to bury my head in my newspaper or my telephone or whatever but when they were actually in conversations with people that they've seen every day they actually liked it. Yeah that's worked by Nick Appley and Julianne Schroeder and I did a similar study at at Starbucks where I had people go into the coffee shop and and

either I instructed them to act really efficiently to have their money ready and avoid talking as

“much as they could you have to talk a little bit to place your order or ask them to go in and”

and turn that interaction that could have just been up you know I give you money you give me coffee but to turn it into something more social and when people came out with their coffee I got them to fill out some questions and you know people who had who taken advantage of that moment and turn it into something a bit more social we're just in a better mood and felt more connected to other people more more satisfied with their experience. Yeah well and it makes sense when you say it

was fun you know it wasn't necessary life changing but it was it it put a little spark in the day and yet

“this this reluctance to do it this feeling like oh this is just not worth it. You know since I've”

started talking about this research doing this research and talking about it I really have this strong feeling that so many people want to do this but feel like they're not allowed or feel like they don't have the skills to do it so it seems to me that when I say this people are like oh I kind I want to do that I'm going to give that a try I don't feel like it's the same as you know trying to encourage people to go to the gym and get some more exercise something that we know

is good for us but we a lot of us are like we don't really don't want to do that I don't feel like talking to strangers the same I feel like a lot of people can sort of sense that there might be something worthwhile here and just need a bit of a nudge. Well sometimes those stranger interactions can be fun and and there's something to them but sometimes there's not so you just have to I guess

“decide whether it's worth the effort. Ash well I've heard so many fun stories so I've had a lot of”

laughs which to me is a lot more fun than you know sitting on the bus or sitting on the train in silence. I've had recommendations for restaurants and walking trails and theater and you know places I should visit. I had people give me free vegetables when I talk to them outside the community garden. I've had I've had a lift from people I've had gone over to someone's house because they might have me over to have a drink so like I feel like there you know there there are some tangible

things but also I I like the idea of doing it just for the humanity of it and not because there might be instrumental benefits. But what's interesting is I bet everybody could say that that everybody who who who thanks back to their interactions with strangers have gotten those benefits in retrospect you see what they were but going into what you think in there's nothing going to happen here so why bother I think it's but I think you're right everybody's had those benefit. I think

about your own life I mean some of the biggest changes in your life good and bad but we're because you ran into somebody or you met somebody on a plane or you you know somebody introduced you to them

“that person gave you a job. I mean that's how that's how everything starts. I think life”

is unpredictable. I think a lot of things you know you just one moment that you never expected

leads to something else which leads to something else like we can't predict what's going to happen and so these little moments are the big moments sometimes. Well I think all of us can search our memories and find a time when one of those stranger interactions has been something special something delightful something wonderful. And I think it's just such a source of novelty right and I think that's what makes it scary is that it feels like every single interaction you don't know

what's going to happen. You don't know this person you know you have there's it's not possible and to be able to predict what's going to happen but that's also the joy of it you know that these magical moments can happen where you know someone connects with you over something or you know I've met so many interesting people you know I met a sperm bank manager I met someone who

does bat bat first aid I've met something called a lookerer which seems like a very English thing

it's a volunteer who who takes keeps an eye on cows and she she knew exactly which cows like to have their heads scratched I've met a children's book author you know it's just it's just a way that opens up your world and makes your life a little bit richer. Did you say you met someone who does bat first aid? Yes. I met that person at a cathedral at Durham Cathedral in England and there's bats that live at the cathedral and they get dehydrated and they actually fall

and land on the ground so in the morning the volunteers come in and they scoop up all the bats that have fallen down and they take them home and administer first aid. The bats are okay. Right. You didn't need to know that but that's like I had no idea that that was a thing and I learned that just because I asked someone what are you doing? Well it's so much fun to talk about because we've all had these stranger interactions we can all relate to this and the good ones

the bad ones and the ones that we're surprising and I like to hear about your research it's great. Jillian Sandstrom's been my guest she is a professor at the University of Sussex in the UK and she's author of the book once upon a stranger the science of how small talk can add up to a

Have you heard of telomeres? They're these protective little caps on your DNA

“kind of like the plastic tips on a shoelace. Every time your cells divide those caps get a little”

shorter and when they get too short cell stop functioning properly. Here's where it gets interesting. Research has found that chronic stress is linked to faster telomere shortening meaning the

wear and tear of stress may actually show up at the cellular level. Some studies have found

“a link between personality traits like impatience and shorter telomeres but scientists aren't”

sure what is the cause and what is the effect? Does having shorter telomeres make you impatient or does impatience shorten your telomeres? What they do know is this lifestyle factors like stress,

sleep, exercise and diet all appear to influence how quickly your telomeres shorten.

So aging isn't just about time it may also be about how you live that time and that is something

“you should know and if this episode made you think or smile or you learn something new I hope”

you'll share it with someone you know just hit the share button and help us spread the word. I'm my currothers thanks for listening today to something you should know. Hey it's Hillary Frank from the longest shortest time and award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health and we're covering it all. Birth control, pregnancy, gender, bodily autonomy,

menopause, consent, sperm, so many stories about sperm and of course the joys and absurdities of raising kids of all ages. If you're new to the show check out an episode called The Staircase. It's a personal story of mine about trying to get my kids school to teach sex head. Spoiler I get it to happen but not at all in the way that I wanted. We also talked to plenty of non-parents so you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising funny poignant

stories about human relationships and you know periods the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longass shortest time.com