War Crimes, Christian Nationalism, and the 25th Amendment

Since the nation's founding, the values of religious liberty and pluralism

“happen central to the American identity. Those values are now under accelerated attack.”

The government has no authority to pick and choose which religious beliefs to promote and which to marginalize. Religious freedom for only some is religious freedom for none. The Trump-Fansed administrations religious liberty commission is pursuing a culture of Christian nationalism that seeks to divide and isolate people across our nation. The fatally flawed way this commission was assembled makes clear that the predetermined outcome

isn't just an American, it's against the law. The Trump-Fansed administration has failed to uphold our country's proud religious freedom tradition and we need to hold them accountable. Be part of the movement that's pushing back and standing up for freedom. You can register today to

“attend the summit for religious freedom at the SRF.org.”

I am Charisa and my experience in all entrepreneurs starts a choppy fire attack. I have many problems but the platform is not a step from it. I have the feeling that choppy fire attacks can only be obtained. Everything is super simple, integrated and balanced. And the time and the money that I can't invest in there.

For all in Vaxtum, now the cost-lost test on choppy fire.de. They perform for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet or for my next. Hello and welcome back to strict scrutiny. You are a podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. I'm your loan regular host for today, Leo Littman.

Here to announce that I too have never been friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Indeed, I have also

never had a relationship with Epstein or his accomplice Maxwell. Of course, my I'm not friends with Epstein or Maxwell shirt has a lot of people asking questions answered by my "I'm not buddy buddy with sex traffickers shirt." Anyways, the Supreme Court did not hear oral arguments last week, which means this is just going to be a legal news episode. And with Kate and Melissa out, I am delighted to be joined by two repeat guests to help me break down WTF happen last week.

First, Katie Fang is going to talk with me about this week in the Unitary Executive, which, as far as I can tell, meant a lot of war crimes and Christian nationalism. We'll also talk about a bad decision out of the Supreme Court you probably haven't heard about and some goings on in the courts of appeal. Then Emily Amick will explain what all the 25th amendment talk is about and help me say goodbye to Justice Rebecca Bradley, aka Becky with the

bad takes of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. But first up, joining me in the co-host chair,

is the wonderful Katie Fang, independent journalist and trial lawyer who hosts a YouTube channel, the Katie Fang channel, that is part of the Midas Touch Network where she delivers must here daily news analysis. Welcome back to the show, Katie. Oh, I'm happy to be back. I do think this would have been a good week for some tailor news, but other than her planning her wedding,

“right now, we don't have any updates, but I feel like it would have the date?”

I mean, are we on like an NDA? Like we're not just talking about it, right? We're talking about what it is. Why are you outing us like this, I mean, hello. But I kind of feel like they would have taken the edge off of all, you know, the Christian nationalism genocide this week, but yes, I am thrilled to be here no matter what. I should also say you can find Katie on Substack, Katie Fang over at that platform as well. Okay, Katie, as you were kind of suggesting,

this last week felt at least to me, like one of the more unsettling, disorienting,

unreal weeks that I can remember in a year and a half that has always felt that way,

like with the president threatening war crimes, genocide, maybe using a nuclear weapon and giving us a weird deadline slash timeline for him, making a decision about whether to unleash all of this, it just felt surreal. How did you experience this past week? We didn't even have to make it

well, we started it on Sunday, did we not? Yes, Easter Sunday with explosive late and post

threatening the continuation. I will say of war crimes, because that is my opinion. I feel like the war crimes, it's not like they haven't started, they've been kind of ongoing. And then it kind of merged and kind of evolved into will we have an act of genocide by either by way of a nuclear warhead or maybe some huge ordinance, right, on Tuesday. But that became Taco Tuesday with them, maybe wonder are we going to have a war crime Wednesday? I mean, I don't see this tongue

in, you know, kind of see a tongue in cheek and I'm not trying to make light of it, but my biggest and it's so fun. I just had a conversation with our good friend, Ellie Mistal about it, not even an hour ago. I was like, we're going to wake up Wednesday morning and think like everything is back as business as usual, even in the legal perspective, right? Because I felt like we, we were so close to the edge of that precipice, we didn't have to go over it, Leah, for us to have really

crossed the rubicon. I firmly believe in every way. We have now crossed this line that we cannot go back to as a society and as a world and now we sit in in this midst of a ceasefire non-sees fire and and wonder what's next, sadly. Yeah. And so since you mentioned the posts, I just want to kind of recite them for our listeners who might have missed them because only the actual words can convey the nuttiness. So the Sunday one I think is what red quote Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge

day all wrapped up in one in Iran. There will be nothing like it multiple exclamation points. Open the fucking straight. You crazy bastards or you'll be living in hell. Just watch, praise be to Allah, President Donald J. Trump. That was Easter Sunday. I'm like, you know,

“sometimes when you have to laugh uncomfortable. Like, I'm laughing uncomfortably because”

I was in church, right? Like I was in church and you don't even have to be a Christian on Easter Sunday to be appalled by what it is. But it's just even the taunting at the end with the praise be Allah. It's just really was so beyond the pale, right? Oh yeah, completely. And then it was also Passover when he just kind of unleashed this as well. But then the Tuesday morning one,

the truth began quote a whole civilization will die tonight never to be brought back again. And

then it continued like with an all caps who knows maybe something revolutionarily wonderful can happen like teasing that maybe it will maybe it won't. So Katie, you are, as I mentioned in the intro, a wonderful independent journalist like how do you think about covering stuff like this because at least in my observations, it felt like there was a lot of singing washing of this in the media and coverage like people talking about Trump escalation or adopting hardline stances

“when this is just straight up violations of the laws of war, even the threats. Yes and yes, I think”

this was the quintessential moment of and it should have been appreciated as an inflection point for all people that participate in media, whether it's legacy mainstream or independent, to have that gut check on how you cover Trump and this regime. And it doesn't have to be a partisan coverage. It has to be the truth, which is why I'm grateful that you took the time to walk through those truth social posts because as we know in the law and in mission by a party

opponent is the most damning way to impeach someone, right? I mean and I would love impeachment and every sense of the legal idea of impeachment conviction removal of a president, but you know

to do so using someone's own words against them is oftentimes the most powerful way in front

of a judge or jury to be able to show that person's intent, like that's a big he admitted, energy like string or bell, are you true thing, a mother fucking criminal conspiracy because

“as you know, like for war crimes, you have to establish the actors intent and they're usually”

not just posting it, you know, in writing. So then you don't even have to question it. Was it a he said she said moment, oh no, it was in writing and you know, you don't even have to wonder if there's a mistaken attribution. This was not a, even if the idea sprung from the brain of Steven Miller and this very perverse Greek mythological way, you didn't have to wonder because at the end of the day, the way it was presented and rolled out on true social was epically Trump, right? And

all of the weird caps and syntax and lack of punctuation and run out shit. But it was the criminal intent that was so brazenly obvious. And you know, there was nothing strategic about it either, right? I mean, some people are like, oh, he's just pasturing. Yeah, posturing by the threat of the commission of a war crime is not posturing. It's threat of a commission of war

sobering cause for pause, which is, do you just shrug your shoulders and enjoy the breeze from the

overton window being moved so far into another country at this point that you would need a passport to live in it? Or do you actually say, we can't go back now. Like, this is where we are. And in the fact that it wasn't enough for some, some members of Congress to immediately put their

“bridges on and haul us back to DC was, I think, another galling take away from this week.”

One of the worst responses was, I don't agree with genocide, but like, that was a sentence that some people actually uttered. And it's like, no, no, no, no, there's no butt after that. Um, that's not that. There's just a full stop. Yes, full stop. Um, but, you know, I know in a rest of development, the father says I have the worst fucking attorneys, every lawyer for the federal government and Donald Trump personally has to be saying, I have the worst fucking client

with, uh, those posts. But, um, a bit on those lawyers because last week, deputy attorney general Todd Blanch assumed the role of acting slash interim attorney general, Katie, how did his premier go in your eyes? Thank you, sure may have another. Thank you, sure may have another. I was waiting for Todd to, to, in, in the, in the theme of religion, I was waiting for him to whip out something

“and be like the self-flagellation of, I'm so sorry, sir. I am here in Piety to be able to do what”

you're, well, anytime, I've never, and I've been on the surface for 51 years this year.

Well, yeah, I have never heard any iteration of an attorney general, either an assistant, you and I to state attorney and attorney general, deputy AG, whatever the hell you want to call them. I have never heard any of them say, I love you, sir. I love you. And since you introduced it, let's play our clip because he is Todd Blanch on the guy upstairs by which he means Donald Trump himself, not God. Yeah, I love working for President Trump. It's a greatest honor

of a lifetime, and if President Trump chooses to, um, keep me exacting, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate me, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and I go back to being the DAG, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and asks me to go do something else, I will say thank you very much. I love you, sir. So I don't, I don't have any goals or aspirations beyond that. That, he, he said that literally. It's funny because I actually

covered that presser in one of the episodes on my YouTube channel. The, the thrust of that was to talk about the hypocrisy of them and announcing this new fraud enforcement division when Trump himself has pardoned or given clemency to more than 70 of his allies, donors, friends, and people that have paid to play to get access, and they've all the convicted of fraud, and that more than

$700 million in restitution and fines is now gone by the wayside courtesy of Trump's clemency

by way of pardoned and commendations. That was the thrust of that episode I did. But of course, I played several clips from Blanche because it was a 24 minute press conference, and to give him credit, he took questions and yet the level of just, of sequiest, disgusting kind of like, let me grovel to say that I would love whatever you do to me was a little personally. I felt a little uncomfortable. It was a little like I'm watching something. I'm not in a cult of personality

shirts, you know, asking questions answered by that shirt. I also did want to highlight one other clip that came up in Todd Blanche's media kind of Benanza this past week, which we will play here, and this is his take on ethics. I mean, look, if you, if you were a prosecutor and you were trying to prosecute your boss, you have ethical duties as a lawyer that I think prevent you from continuing to work in that environment. Katie, is that ethics? Not the comment

I learned or that I got tested on to become a member of a bar. And you know what's crazy is, and dovetails with that with that clip is that he actually, if it's so funny, if you only heard some portions of what the man had to say, it sounded noble and with integrity, right? He's like,

“if you're going to work here, then you need to believe in things. But then, and then if you were”

to cut it there, you'd be like, oh, that sounds so great. But then he keeps on going and saying, because the only agenda here is the president's agenda. Yes. And I was like, bro, whatever happened to the rule of law and your oath to the Constitution. But that just goes to show anybody, Leah, who piped up and said, ooh, maybe Todd Blanche is a better pan bondy. You are full of shit. Because there is no way Blanche is going to sit there and allow bondy to outdo him when it

comes to the ass kissing. Blanche is like, I get the gold medal, even though I am the guy responsible with a male bobe for my client to get 34 convictions on felonies and the only drilling trial that Trump ever had. I have that claim to fame, but I will not allow Pammy Joe with the bad

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Or you can use code strict 50 at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at Sundaysfordogs.com/strict50 or use code strict 5050 at checkout. So another character in this clown show who had some things to say about the guy upstairs was Secretary of Defense/Secretary of War, crimes, Pete, Heggseth, I'm going to play you a series of clips that he delivered at one of his pressers and then asked you to react to the insanity. Here he is at one of them. Our troops, our American warriors deserve

the credit for this day. But God deserves all the glory. Tens of thousands of sordys, refuelings, and strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence, a massive effort with miraculous protection. It's been reported that Heggseth has held Christian worship services at the Pentagon and in one of the recent ones that post-dated the administrations war on Iran, here is some of

what he said. First of reading from the book of Psalms, chapter 18 verses 37 to 42, King David writes,

"I pursued my enemies and overtook them and did not turn back till they were consumed."

capture and kidnapping of Nicholas Maduro. Almighty God who trains our hands for war and our fingers

“for battle. You who stirred the nations from the north against Babylon of Old,”

making her land a desolation where non-dwell. behold now the wicked who rise against your justice and the peace of the righteous. Snap the rod of the oppressor, frustrate the wicked plans and break the teeth of the ungodly. By the blast of your anger let the evil perish, let their bulls go down to slaughter for their day has come. The time of their punishment, pour out your wrath upon those who plot vain things and blow them away like chaff before the wind.

Grant this task force, clear and righteous targets for violence, surround them as a shield, protect the innocent and blameless in their midst. Make their arrows like those of a skilled warrior who returned not empty handed. Let every round find its mark against the enemies of righteousness and our great nation. Give them wisdom in every decision, endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity and overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy.

So Katie I realize I am asking you some version of this question a lot but like how do you talk

“about or convey the enormity and gravity of this misuse of the military?”

You always have to start with the strong emphasis on the separation of church and state because

that has gone out the window. Trump term 1.0 by the way. Let's be clear. It's not just a novelty act that has jumped up right now and Trump term 2.0 but the separation of church estate is just the baseline where we start whenever we talk about this but then the thing about headset is that you know I was waiting for him to order everyone in that pressure to bow their head in prayer. I mean I was waiting for Trump to stand there with the collection plate at the end of the

row and he pockets the money from the collection plate from the offerings. I mean that's the type of thing I felt like was going to take place but when you blur these lines it's intentional. It is not number one it's not sincere because there's nothing about Pete Keg's breath that ever smacks of sincerity. That's good. Keg's breath. That's me. That's me. That's me. And then I'm going to credit you for it. I'm sure I cribbed it from somebody else. But number two, the nefarious and very insidious part about all of this is the allowance if not the overt pushing of this violation of church and state right. It ends up working towards their advantage for the narrative of this is a holy war. Yes. And when you reduce it into very basic

precepts of good versus evil and when you couch it in a way where we are leading a crusade against infidels which by the way he does have a tattoo that says infidels. If we also have the

has the book American Crusade in which he basically argued the crusades were justified and he also argued for war crimes that there's no such thing as a war crime. He's never

about a war crime. He didn't love. Right. And that he didn't think people should be prosecuted as soldiers for war crimes because there are no rules of engagement. Right. I mean, these are walking textbook like examples of illegal conduct. And then you just have him in an enabling role like Trump has all around him so that Trump can continue to post the insanity. He posts on truth social, which is I'm going to commit a war crime. Why? Because my secretary of defense commits war crimes on the daily based upon the fact that God has now told him and by the way the Pope has told both of them.

The Pope said no to all of this. Yeah, peace out, brothers, that is not how God works here. But it is amazing that the entire the base of maga, which likes to cloak itself even if they're evangelical about it. And these ideas of Christianity and good that they don't other than Tucker Carlson calling in the anti-Christ. But they don't actually say no, no, no, we don't live in this space. Because I think the evangelical, you know I talked about this before I'm lia.

“The evangelicals gave him a pass when they thought that he was going to get rid of a reproductive rights. And then when they lived when they delivered row being overturned, I was like, aren't you done?”

Like what else do you need from this man? Do you really do? Oh, I guess you want the infidel's now. Like you want the total eradication of the Middle East. I guess I don't understand why they're in a Christian nationalist country. And already you know, that's part of why headset is firing all the senior military officials right to work black or female or trans, right? I just think is a terrifying because it all seems in service of making the federal government, including the military, a Christian nationalist force.

But because you introduced it, because the administration basically manages to turn everything upside down civil rights and more, of course they're doing this with religion too.

Because all of this religious fervor is happening in the midst of reporting about this goulish war mongering, the administration has directed at the pope and the Vatican. Okay, so for listeners who might have missed this, the free press and other outlets reported that back in January, the undress secretary of defense policy summoned the pope's then ambassador to the United States and delivered some kind of threat late in lecture to him.

And then during the meeting, one of the U.S. officials invoked the so-called Avignon papacy, which for those of you who might not know is when the French crown used military force to coerce the bishop of Rome to do Francis bidding. They literally forced the pope the pope's multiple to reside in France rather than Rome, and it entailed using military force against the Holy See. So part of what was striking to me about this, Katie, is that these guys actually seem to have read some history, at least selectively, like they don't know shit about reconstruction.

“But they're all bone up on the Avignon papacy, like what other history might they have or not have in their back pocket or what do you make of this reporting?”

They initially pulled out mine comp and they were like, oh shit, well one, wrong one. Let me put that back into my pocket. What's in there?

You're going to make me recite the succession. So you read mine comp from multiple times. For what? For what? Yeah. And what's the name of your dog? For Shepherd? What's the name of your dog? And then I pull out, oh yeah, the Avignon papacy. Let me rely on this one, right? I mean, somebody just like Melania yesterday, somebody has given them talking points. And that is the reason why they feel comfortable using that, but it is remarkable because you know what they didn't bone up on.

“How about sovereignty? How about Vatican? How can having its own sovereign? How about it's the pope?”

Like it's like, I didn't have to tell you about Easter Sunday and not putting out an expeditive late and treat social posts.

But it's the pope. And it's our first American pope. I mean, you got to show some respect to the government Chicago.

And just with the bad guys in the Avignon papacy were the governments attacking the pope, but it's very much, it's very much. They look for the convenient historical precedent to bolster what they want. So when they look at, you know, France and you had, you know, the Sun King, right? And he literally lived under this premise that he was the closest thing to God on this earth.

“I mean, that was the justification among others for his royal presence. I mean, there is a reason why, you know, whenever all of these kingdoms and these empires,”

they were literally so kissing cousin adjacent to religion. And that is what we have here in the 20th century with Trump.

The problem is he is such a charlatan. And it is so obvious that he doesn't believe in what it is that that actually reduces any credibility on any of these claims that they make under the guys of Christianity. They do seem to have a weird fetishization for like the French monarchy for being America first, you know, given this, and then also the fact that like Donald Trump is partially inspired by the palace of Versailles and like making some aspects of like his home or whatever, but he's the satisfied with America in general, right, because he loves Victor Orban. He loves Vladimir Putin. He loves the talkersies as they live in international countries, and that's why he wants to bring them here. He's like, let's let's, there's no tariffs on a talkersie. Let's bring him on in, right, bring him on American soil.

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So the president had some thoughts on the birthright citizenship argument saying, "It's too bad that the Supreme Court can't watch and study the mark 11 show on the birthright citizenship scam."

No, I'm just not sure these guys need to pickle or marinate their brains even more in the right wing ecosystem, but then that truth continued. And in a rare moment of clarity, the president closed it with quote, "The country can only withstand so many bad decisions from a court that just doesn't seem to care and quote." Stop clocks, et cetera. So I mentioned at the top that I kind of wanted to get our listeners up to speed about a bad decision that you probably haven't heard about. And so I'm going to ask you for your take on this Katie.

And that's the Supreme Court's decision to deny surgery that is not to hear the case of Skinner versus Louisiana. So bear with me for a bit, the summary is going to take a little. The case stems from several convictions for the murder of a Mr. Walbert, no physical evidence tied the two defendants, Mr. Weary, and Mr. Skinner to the murder. Instead, their convictions relied on the testimony of two people, Sam Scott and Eric Brown. Scott had been incarcerated and he came forward. He claimed to be an eyewitness to the crime, although his statement messed up the year of the crime, how the victim was killed, and where the body was found.

Steven also didn't identify either defendant until later, and the other eyewitness Eric Brown gave it an initial statement that also didn't mention Mr. Skinner. Okay, so at the trial, the prosecution describes Scott as a quote hero, whose fit of conscience broke open a cold case, and they said that Brown was getting quote nothing in exchange for his testimony. "Slight problem." State withheld the fact that Scott was able to obtain a manslaughter plea that gave him credit for time serves such that he would be let out of prison after testifying.

And the state didn't disclose that Brown had attempted to get a deal for his testimony, and that police promised to talk to the district attorney about a sentence he was facing and additional charges.

“The state without other evidence, too, but you got the picture. Can he how bad of a Brady violation is even just that?”

It's like open the dictionary to Brady and see Skinner versus Louisiana, no? I mean, it's, you know, you don't even have, this is the miracle of this. You don't even have to be a lawyer to appreciate it, Leah, right?

It just in your gut doesn't sit right. You know, it's information that you would think would be necessary for a jury to make a decision as to the criminal culpability of a person.

And the fact that this was intentionally withheld on its face should be enough procedurally to say, this, this is not right. We can't before with us. And part of what is so appalling is that, indeed, it was bad enough for the Supreme Court to intervene about a decade ago. So back in 2016 in weary versus can. The court summarily reversed a Louisiana decision and vacated Mr. weary's murder conviction on the ground that the state withheld evidence that would have seriously impeached the state star witnesses.

“And the court said the conviction rests on a house of cards, but here's the thing, Mr. Skinner was convicted of the same crime as Mr. weary, the same murder on the basis of the same star witnesses testimony.”

Withheld the same evidence, and in Mr. Skinner's case, the Supreme Court just says, "Sert denied." And this is the kind of stuff the Supreme Court could have put on its docket rather than the birthright citizenship matter.

I mean, just this last week, the Washington Post ran a story saying that this court is the first since the 1950s to reject most civil rights claims involving women and minorities.

And I just think people need to understand that the Supreme Court is bad, not just because of the things they do, but because of the things they decline to do as well, like how they choose to spend their time. Yeah, and this is a great example of why elections have consequences. People often think of it more in the narrow lane of who's my senator, right, or who's my representative. I mean, and I always like to remind people that it is almost the tentacles of this are so far reaching that with a Senate win in a man like Mitch McConnell, who ends up being the architect of the stacking of the firm.

“The stacking of the federal bench, admittedly with the assistance and, at the behest of Leonard Leo and the whole federal society energy, but you create a stacked federal bench.”

And then you create almost like a nuclear arms race when it comes to presidential administrations, right, because then it's a being a race to see who can make the most appointments during the their presidential term on these federal appointments, right, because these are life and this is the opening.

These are lifetime appointments even on the district court level, the trial court level, and then of course you end up with like a meal boving on the third on the public court level, et cetera.

But the fact to the matter that this 10 years ago, that the countenance of the Supreme Court of the United States, 10 years ago in 2016, was materially different than what you have looked at now post trump term 1.0, so that you end up with identical claims, identical facts, identical issues, identical evidence that was suppressed for one man, but not for another, creates such an egregious inconsistent result that as you said, sometimes it's not what we know, it's a stuff that we don't know about. It's the stuff that's happening behind the scenes and I'm not talking shadow docket.

These types of decisions that are being rendered that are in good, you know, three words, not even are one sentences, you know, whatever, and that that has far reaching implications as well. And listen, I get it, it's Louisiana, which in and of itself, you know, is troubling, but I mean, how you have them on all fours. The exact same facts, the exact same issues, and you screw over Skinner in that way, well, you know, that there you go. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the distinction between 2016 and 2026 because another thing our listeners might not know is that it takes four votes on the Supreme Court to hear a case.

And what that means is the three democratic appointees couldn't force the issue today in a way they could have in 2016 before Justice Ginsburg passed away. And to think that this differential treatment might come down to that is just gutting, you know, it just defies the idea of equal justice under the law. Why, when we find out weeks after the fact that Alito ends up going to the hospital and stuff, right? And we don't know about it in real time.

“I think is a sign of the fact that they're fully cognizant with Alito and Thomas being the literal elders on the court, right? The oldest people on the court.”

And to the most conservative, if not the most conservative, just as on the Supreme Court we've had, like the fact that Alito goes to the hospital and it's kept silent for as long as it was. I think is a tell on their part that they know that there is something going on here, which is why we should be paying attention to these things.

So I mean, it's kind of interesting how we all are now it's almost like, you know.

Reminds me of like when the the emperor of China, somebody looked at his poop every day to see whether that's okay. Well, I mean, are we going to get there at that point now or the Supreme Court, just these guys at least Alito already make us look at his shit almost any time.

“I didn't film opinion. So yeah, no, you said me up for that one, but speaking of, you know, deciding whether to stay or whether to go, I wanted to note a notable retirement announcement that came out of the court of appeals for the a circuit.”

And it was this, Judge Erickson on the a circuit and now that he's taking senior status, not notable, although choosing to give the madman threatening nuclear war, the option to name your replacement is a choice, but the interesting thing is that Erickson was actually appointed to the a circuit by Donald Trump during his first term.

So the guy's been on the a circuit bench for less than eight years. What did you make of that or think when you kind of saw this guy was like quickly, you know, stepping down.

Well, he is one of several that are actually kind of running to the exits, but not in a way that we should find reassuring. Erickson's vacancy on the eighth will create the opportunity for Trump to appoint his sixth nominee Judge to this bench. And his four prior that have been the white men that the ABA deemed to be not qualified to serve. And by the way, we should still go by the ABA qualifications, even though the DOJ and the United States Senate have decided on the Republican side not to do it.

They've all been white male. There have been no women. There have no been women of color that have come from Trump. And so there have been other circuit, a pelicort judges that have also said, I think I'm going to take retirement now, or I'm going to go to senior status because they know that this creates another opportunity for Trump to put someone on the bench, which again, elections have consequences.

“If you have people that are elected to either the Oval Office and where you get a Katonji Brown Jackson courtesy of former president Joe Biden, or if you end up with a Donald Trump, where you end up with a Brett Kavanaugh, right?”

I mean, these are material things that impact your life. And you know, if there's any silver lining to all this Leah, and I think you of all people would agree, especially on this pod. If anything, the Trump turns, as horrific as they have been, have actually brought, I think, more knowledge and interest in the Supreme Court of the United States that we've ever had in the history of that court, so much so that people are understanding that these Supreme Court justices of nine have so much power over us as Americans that we should be paying attention to our elections and who gets in positions to vote these unqualified people through a United States Senate.

So since you mentioned unqualified, I wanted to note one other development in the Court of Appeals and that's out of the Ninth Circuit. So a two judge panel of the Ninth Circuit, both judges Trump appointees, including one, rated unqualified, wrote down a California law that sought to limit the amount of profits that dialysis providers could get from patients who receive assistance from non-profit charities in paying their health insurance. So the law essentially imposed a rate cap, had a disclosure requirement, and whatnot, and the thinking was like, this package of requirements would remove financial incentives to steer patients to specific health care coverage, and you know, by reimbursing dialysis, clinics at Medicare rates.

“Katie, want to guess why these two geniuses said this statute attempting to rate cap dialysis provision was unconstitutional?”

I'm going to guess that it's the sliver de jure lately, which is the first amendment. It's so sad because that amendment has become like a punchline, like if you wish to crash.

I feel like we need a first amendment for freaks segment because this is what they're doing. That they've weaponized and bastardized the first up. I mean, you don't have to look very far from what was it a week ago that we have the conversion therapy decision from school. I mean, and that was under the guise of the first amendment as well, right? I mean, the first amendment has now been weaponized and bastardized in a way that I found to be remarkable, especially for the Republicans to be deployed in this way.

Yeah. No points for guessing one member of the panel, who, of course, was Judge Lawrence Van Dyke, the creator of the homosexual porn video and the author of the opinion that contained swinging dicks who also managed to be the speaker at the National Federal Society Convention about you guessed it, the proper role for the judiciary. The jokes write themselves. So Katie, do you want to share with our listeners your favorite things over the last week?

It has been an incredibly trying week and I will say if there's one thing that always comes from spending time with my dog, it is a reminder that unconditional love does exist

“to that we should aspire to be as amazing people as our dogs think we are, which I think anybody could believe in and understand.”

I think the other kind of favorite thing that I had from this week is I felt like I went to this this conference, Leah in Boston, and it was around a whole bunch of very smart like-minded pro-democracy people. And I left that conference understanding that we are not limited in geography in terms of our desires to make our country a better place. Like sometimes we feel like I, for example, feel like a blue dot and a red sea. It's been kind of like a one to punch in a good way of leaving no Kings Day 3.0 and Minneapolis Saint Paul in going to this event in Boston. Like it reminds me that there are these pockets that are growing of sane, very, very motivated people that understand what's that stake.

And so no snark just genuine love affection and appreciation for the idea that we are here to sustain each other in all the right ways. And that is exactly how I managed to get through the insanity of this week.

Well, I love that. Thank you so much for joining as always. We truly love having you here. I'm always speechless at the end of spending time with you.

So like I live in the minutia and then it's been time with you and I'm like, I really don't live in this level of my personality is based on it in the footnotes in the footnotes.

“No, listen, caroling products right footnotes.”

That's interesting. I remember discrete insular minority. Yeah, listen, all kidding aside, like I know it's a win when I leave feeling smarter and I've also got to spend time with one of my favorite people who's a fellow dog lover and a fellow Taylor Swift fan and so I'm always grateful. Well, thank you so much again, Katie. Listeners again, please check out and subscribe to Katie's YouTube channel as well as her sub-stack. She manages to kind of thread that needle between keeping you informed without making you insane.

A true gift. So coming up next Emily Amick will join to talk the 25th Amendment and what shouting into the void does. Thanks to home serve for sponsoring this episode. Back in the day when I lived in California, I was a homeowner and I have to say there are a lot of great things about California, but all of the maintenance of home ownership was not one of them. One minute, you're sitting in your beautiful kitchen, sipping some tea and then all of a sudden a pipe is burst and you've got to go figure out how to fix it.

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Let's test out Shopify.de. Before we get to my interview with Emily Amick, a point of personal privilege, where I get to talk about estate race here in Michigan with pretty big national implications. So right now, there is a competitive primary in Michigan to be the Democratic candidate for Attorney General of Michigan. And at the end of last week, the Trump administration sued one of the people running to be the Democratic candidate for Attorney General of Michigan.

And that's Ellie Savitt, the current Washington County prosecutor. You scared Donald? Seriously. We know Trump target the fighters. People challenge him, like Representative Le Manica McIver. Jim Comey, New York Attorney General, which is James. Now he's targeting Ellie Savitt, who is running to be Michigan's next Attorney General. Our listeners know we've had Ellie on the show before when he talked about how he would protect LGBT rights as Michigan's next Attorney General. The disclosure, he's also a law school classmate of mine. And the lawsuit against Ellie is unhinged. It's about immigration policies.

And it faults Ellie as Washington County prosecutor forget this enforcing the fourth amendment saying it's a problem that Washington County requires judicial boards for some immigration enforcement. When did it become unconstitutional to enforce the Constitution, inquiring minds, would like to know. The lawsuit also complains that Ellie isn't handing over information to ICE to help them in their drag net immigration enforcement when we have all seen what federal immigration enforcement looks like.

Including people out of cars, pepper spraying children, zip time children and shooting and killing civilians. So basically, they are also saying it is illegal to stand up for public safety.

“Again, we've had Ellie on the show. He's talked about protecting rights from the lingering specter of fascism. And seriously, now it makes me wonder, Donald, you scared?”

And now I am delighted to be joined by Emily Amick, the Emily behind Emily in your phone, former counsel to send it minority leader Chuck Schumer. And the co-author of the recent New York Times bestseller Democracy in Retrograde, the paperback version of which is coming out this month. Welcome back to the show, Emily. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. I am very excited to have you because this past week there's been a lot of talk about the 25th amendment and you wrote a great piece on it. I was hoping we could walk through what the 25th amendment is, why it's come up and why we should be talking about it. So I guess let's just start with the basics. So what is the 25th amendment?

Yeah, so after JFK was assassinated, everyone was like, wait, what's he doodle? What's going to happen? What's going to happen if the president is incapacitated? And we don't have anyone leading country, maybe there should be some procedures that we should have. And the one thing is that there were actually assassinations in what not before that point and it's like they didn't realize it then, right? Like, you know, Garfield, Grover Cleveland and no, no, no, no, no, no, but it's okay. And BD, you know, we're just fine. So there's a man there, someone will do it.

And so they were like, let's do a thing, let's do an amendment and set up a procedure. And the procedure is the vice president has to start this. And he has to get a group of buddies together. So he has to get either part of the cabinet or as Jamie Rasklin is now circulating. And then the president could be like, actually, I'm fine. And stop it. And then the group can, once again, be like, no Congress, we think our buddy is doing poorly. We really need you to see the truth post.

And then Congress has to vote on it, and it's two-third majority. And then the vice president is the president.

“And so, you know, invoking the 20th Amendment as never actually happened when Reagan had the attempted assassination. There was discussions about it, but it is, you know, my posture on this.”

Is that talking about the 25th of, like, cut to the chase, which is my posture is that, like, talking about the 25th Amendment isn't really about invoking the 25th Amendment. It's about talking about it. Okay. So, so then I think you've begun to answer the question that I wanted to ask, which is, you know, as you kind of laid out, of course, invoking the 25th Amendment requires the actions of JD Vance.

And, the cabinet, which is a cabinet of lawyers and hacks. It's not like going against Trump. I don't think. Exactly. Exactly.

Neither is, like, Pete Kegse, neither is, like, all of the other weirdos in the cabinet. I mean, Todd Blanch is acting attorney general now, right? Like, that's not happening.

“So, then, like, if the actual 25th Amendment, Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, the process you laid out is not going to materialize, like, why is talking about the 25th Amendment still important?”

Well, and, you know, the other thing to point out is the other available option is impeachment, which you have discussed probably for hours and hours and hours of your life at this point. Which, again, requires majority of the House, two-thirds of the Senate, a number that is unattainable, even if it could be started, which functionally it can't be, because Republicans control both chambers.

And, and so, because a lot of people are saying, like, don't talk about the 25th talk about impeachment, and it's like, I seem same. You know what I mean?

Yeah, same thing. And, and, and to a significant degree, Democrats have not been talking about impeachment or 25th because they want to focus on the issues in affordability and sort of Trump's actual actions.

“But what the 25th allows you to talk about impeachment requires, like, specific actions that are bad. And what we saw from the first two impeachments was, none of that really pierced the public consciousness in a really significant way.”

But 25th is just like, the students incompetent. The students? Yeah, none of that. And that does pierce the public consciousness and gets to a general feeling of the zeitgeist, which is like, I don't like having this guy. We have a man case. Yeah, right. Right. He is literally threatening nuclear war. Right. And he vaculates back and forth between, oh, the straightest open, the straightest not open, charging rates, not charging rates. And that sort of erratic behavior, you would think, might cause people some concern.

I mean, we spent months and endless new cycles and media cycles talking about Joe Biden's mental acuity. So we know this is a potential topic of interest. And that's interesting with the 25th Amendment opens that door in a way that impeachment might not. Yeah, I mean, one of the things Republican can do really well is make something like sleepy Joe happen. Right. Whereas, like, the Democratic base is like, no, we want something policy. We want procedure. We want actionable things. Like, we want to see reality.

They won't just participate in the sort of narrative building that is the foundation for any action and any political change, right, which is one of our problems. Yeah. No. And also, like, these things are just inextricably related, right. The fact that we have a mad king, right, starting baseless wars and causing problems is part of why the economy is going to shit, right? And gas prices are up at all of these things are more difficult. So, I guess, like, another part of me was thinking about the 25th Amendment as a almost stocking horse for the underlying issues, like talking about the 25th Amendment isn't some ways, an opening to discussing all of the ways that Donald Trump just makes things and our lives worse by being a mad king.

And, you know, the other thing about 25th Amendment is it sort of algorithmically optimized. There are certain types of conversations that work really well on social media. And it's hard to articulate what those things are. If, you know, I spend an egregious amount of time on the internet and I sort of have this feel for it at this point. And it is something that has legs. And there's sort of a reticence to participate in these campaigns. I think amongst people, because they can feel that that's what it is. But it works. And which is why I sort of like, let's lean. Let's do it. Let's do it. This is a good idea.

Yeah. No. That's so interesting. And I don't know if it's because it's, you know, partially a legalistic culture. If it's partially the promise of a solution. If it's partially as you were saying, a way of talking about Trump's unfitness,

Yeah. People love like singers. You know what I mean? Yeah. They love terms that again.

“Again, that's why they like sleepy Joe. You know what I mean? It's somehow really gets at the heart of the emotional resonance of an issue, less so the like precise nature of it.”

And I think for a lot of people 20 for the amendment feels, it feels validating to their pre-existing belief that he's a mad king. And then it feels hopeful that there is a solution to a problem. Yeah. And I should say, I feel like we have been trapped in this. I don't know 18 months of new stories about how Democrats are looking for people who can help with messaging. Yeah. And influencers and whatnot, and I just want to point out, I'm talking to one right here, and that like her ideas are spelled out into democracy and retrograde, so maybe like send it to your congressional representatives and tell them right.

It's right here. I in fact have been writing about this right this every day for eight years.

Yes. And begging Democrats to invest in the influencer infrastructure for eight years. And they say, you're a middle-aged woman who knows exactly. Therefore relevant, you're irrelevant.

“You're just going to be the most important voting block in 2028, but who gives it up?”

Yeah. You know, the 25th amendment kind of keeping it in the conversation also reminded me of something that happened this past week, which was just a social minority continuing to drag Brett Kavanaugh for Kavanaugh. So she said it was an appearance. Yeah. I know, quote, I had a colleague in that case who wrote, you know, these are only temporary stops. This is from a man whose parents were professionals and probably doesn't really know any person who works by the hour and quote.

Like, it's a way of keeping something in the conversation.

And I want to love that. But then a party was also terrified. Like, why is she making these statements now? What did Brett Kavanaugh do this time? Did that cross your mind? What did he say to her at last week's dinner party? Exactly. What did he say to the conference? What crazy about did he guess? I don't know.

“But I think that, you know, the other thing that this is doing, that she is doing and the 20th amendment is doing is setting a foundation, right?”

So future clerks drafting a decision on that matter will see her comment and think about it, right? It affects the overton window. I like to talk about a lot. Public conversations do directly relate to policy and law. We see that in judicial decision making, right? Like, in a very literal sense and in a figurative sense, figuratively things change. I mean, Obergefell is like the greatest example I think of a decision that says, like, actually society has changed. And we are going to decide the law differently. Of course, we have now a Supreme Court conservative maturity that doesn't agree that life should change and they think,

Actually, let's go back to the time when most of you people had nothing. No rights. But putting that aside, you know, I think that that is one of the things that Justice Sotomayor is doing there is saying, like, I want to make sure next time this comes up. People take note of this one very specific thing and maybe feel a little bit guilty, but not understand the absurdity of it. Right, not that Kavanaugh would ever take a moment to think about hourly wage workers in his life, no. But maybe someone else would. That would also require a Kavanaugh taking a moment to think.

It's my baby on the path of heart for him. Right. Speaking of scary things, though, Emily, when you joined us at a live show, we play a game with you. And I wanted to close this episode with a little game of helping us take a buy to Rebecca Bradley Becky with the bad takes. Soon to be the former Justice of the Wisconsin Supreme Court, because Chris Taylor won the election, meaning there is now a five to two progressive majority on that Wisconsin Supreme Court. And I don't know. Are you up for this? I'm so excited. And I'm so excited for Wisco.

And every time I hear the nihilism of the Democratic base, nothing can change. Everything is broken. No one will ever do anything. I'm like, false, incorrect. Like, look at what we've been doing with the Wisconsin Supreme Court, Elon has had invested millions, tens of millions of dollars, and we're still winning. You know, like, in we're doing on good issues running good people, it's very, very possible if you run good races with good people. Yeah. And on that note, I mean, the Wisconsin Supreme Court was the only court in the country that actually cast any vote in support of Donald Trump's theories in the aftermath of the 2020 presidential election to try to throw out votes.

They actually came within one vote, one single vote of doing so. And now that court has whip sod, right, shifted so dramatically in favor of this progressive direction.

Yeah, it's, you know, and democracy and retrograde. It's so in talking about these Wisconsin Supreme Court elections. I wrote that book and one of the people who I've, you know, seen develop her investment in her community over these years, her name's Kate Duffy.

“And she started supporting Mandela Barnes Senate race, doing moms from Mandela in Wisconsin and has now gotten involved in all of these Supreme Court races, making political content on Instagram and working on the ground organizing in length.”

I have seen democracy and retrograde in action with everything that Kate is doing. She got involved in her community on issues she cared about. She spoke out, she found community.

One of my big, like, premises of the book is like, there's actually a lot of joy to find in this work and Kate and I are, like, really good friends now and we have a lot of joy in everything we do together. And so I think it's the perfect example and she's now working like they're winning. Yes, what a pleasure that is. Right. And so speaking of finding joy and finding joy and winning, let's shift to dancing on the judicial, I don't know, office, grave of one and backup. Okay. So Emily, true or false. In a 1992 column, Rebecca Bradley argued that under a Clinton presidency, one would be better off contracting aids than developing cancer because those afflicted with the politically correct disease will get all of the funding.

“So her false true. Oh, yeah, true. Although when she ran for the Wisconsin Supreme Court, she indicated that since that column, she began a process of change in her life.”

She's like, I can't say these thoughts out loud. I have to keep them inside. Exactly. That was the process of change.

Okay. Next one, true or false. Rebecca Bradley once called the progressive members of the Wisconsin Supreme Court, quote, hand made ends of the democratic party false true. Oh, she did that. She did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a work. Oh, yeah. Okay. Next one, true or false. In an opinion Rebecca Bradley wrote, quote, D-E-I-A is a disguise for dangerous identity politics.

I mean, the thing is, I wouldn't put anything past this woman. So I'll go with true. True. She did. Yep. She did that one, sure.

Okay. Sure. It's not even funny. You know what? I mean, make a good joke, girl. Okay. Well, maybe this one will be a joke, but true or false. Rebecca Bradley edited her own Wikipedia page. True. True. She did that one too. She's a busy, busy lady. Okay. That's pathetic. I know. I hate. I'm like always so happy to win, especially when it's against these freaking losers. I'm also so happy to be reminded that they truly can't handle criticism, right? Like she edited her own Wikipedia page. She decided not to run for reelection rather than be in the minority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court. So yeah, it has that going for me.

She's barely, she was mostly appointed. She only ran one time, right? Exactly. She was appointed by Scott Walker. Yep. Okay. Next one, true or false. In a single opinion, Rebecca Bradley cited Charles Love Race Crazy, BLM-1619 and Progressive Racism Movement, said we live in a quote increasingly racist society. And and cited Ben Shapiro. How did debate leftists and destroy them? True. True. Single opinion. All of that and more. Think about that fact as you listen to her takes in a recentish interview here.

As a justice, I do not share my personal beliefs about anything that is political. I'm dismayed that issues are being talked about under the guise of values. Did that hit for you? So hard. Every accusation is a confession. And now our own little montage to say goodbye to Becky with the bad takes. Also, think the way Judge Crawford ran her race was disgusting. She slandered a good man, Judge Schimmel. We saw this last time against Justice Kelly. It's really sickening.

“How are you feeling about working with Susan Crawford on the Wisconsin Supreme Court?”

I'm not looking forward to working with her.

I'm not falling argument.

Isn't it the fact that I'd like to answer to my question, Justice first?

“I think it's because the legislature was a priority. Are you arguing the case?”

And here she is, the very beginning of the oral argument concerning Wisconsin State Legislative Jerry Mander. Good morning, and may it please the court. The Wisconsin Constitution's redistricting requirements are not optional. Yes, council, where were you? Where were your clients two years ago? Because we've already been through this redistricting happens once every ten years. Just frothing at the mouth to get in there. Emily, final words on Wisconsin, 25th Amendment, Democracy and Retrograde, or anything else?

I guess the thing that I have to say, and the reason I wrote Democracy and Retrograde, which is all about the fact that, like, Unfortunately, it has continued to become more true as the book has been out over the last couple years. Is that, like, it doesn't, we don't have to stay in Retrograde. We can change things, and it is very, very possible. And it just requires everyone to do something. Everyone doesn't have to do everything. It just will need everyone to do something.

And those things can be things that bring your joy and make you happy and add, like, incredible value to your life.

And enrich our communities. And I very much have hope and faith that we will get there, which is a weird thing to say for someone who's been a practicing lawyer for 20 years. We are the most negative, it's like us and dentists, we're like the most negative people. But, you know, friends with my dentist. But, you know, I feel confident that we are on the right side of history and we will prevail. And I, I just, the question is how quickly that will happen. Well, that is a terrific place to end and actually a perfect segue to ending the episode with our favorite things.

So, I'll go first and share my favorite things over the last week. So, one, of course, is Emily's co-written book, which is co-written with Sammy Sage, Democracy and Retrograde. Again, get the paper back version. I feel like it's the perfect thing and the lead up to the midterms to really like, like the fire under your butt and whatnot. And now that it's a paper back, there's like a personality quiz and lots of worksheet, so it's going to be really easy to fill out. And if you have someone in your life who has been struggling politically, it's the perfect gift.

I like that struggling politically, it's a nice way of putting it. Also, I wanted to recommend a post from a friend of the show, Professor Steve Vladik over at one first, Drunks Lampost and the birthright citizenship case, which kind of talks about the role of academics and normalizing the administrations on his theories about birthright citizenship.

Some other favorites would be the news, Chiron's. As Melania said, she never had a relationship or friendship with Epstein or Maxwell, some of them were truly next level.

“Also, Levine, they agree. I don't even know if you, that's how you say it, but they released a seasonal carrot cake cookie.”

What? Yeah, I know. Public service announcement. Get on that. And last but not least, please vote for us in the Webby Awards. Just a few days left to vote and we will include a link in the show. No, it's moved for them. So Emily, how about your favorite case? Have four things. Okay, I wrote on a post-it note in preparation for this event. Number one. The book that I have called Book Club Final Boss. Have you read strangers by Bellburden? Yes. Yeah, I mean, everyone I know they pick it up. They said they read it in one sitting. Yes. And then the book takes seven hours to read and then you spend seven hours talking about it with your friends.

And there's so much to discuss and that makes it all the more delicious. So that is thing number one. Thing number two is it's of spring, which means I get to have my favorite recipe, which is the Smith and kitchen zucchini butter spaghetti. Are you, are you a Smith and kitchen? I love Smith and kitchen and I also love zucchini squash and making recipes without my partner doesn't like it and it's so fresh. Your partner made like this because it doesn't like zucchini. I put in extra zucchini. You like caramelize the zucchini.

“I do recommend using a fresh pasta like a freshly goeney. I think it really makes it taste better to have that bite.”

Highly recommend everyone try out that recipe. Third thing is I probably said this last time I was here because it's always on my list. I'm picking my needle point back up and I'm always putting it down and then being like, you know what would bring me joy. Continuing to work on this project that I've been working on for seven years.

And the fourth and final thing is I have started to do meetups with my community, my EIP community.

Okay. And we're doing one in San Francisco in a couple days. And like over 80 people have RSVP and the point is, there's no point. We're just like, hang out and meet and everyone's going to make a new friends, but it's energizing.

“And I think that people are really, they want, I are, you know, I am so terminally online.”

But we want third places. You want time to be with other people and have fun and talk about your interests. You know, I'm going to force 17 different people to talk about my needle point. That's fine. And your dog or whatever it is, you know what I mean? And I think people are really yearning for that. And that is part of the social fabric that makes us like politically potent and viable. And there's a real value to it. And there's a real value into finding like joy and happiness points in our lives, especially when the world is so hard right now.

So I'm super excited. I'm going to do what I'm going to do, what I'm going to do, what I'm posting. To get to do these things, which I haven't been doing last couple years. And so it's bringing me incredible joy that I get to do them now. That's great.

Emily, thank you so much for joining again. We always love having you.

Happy to be here. And finally, some housekeeping before we go.

“One, why does it seem like the Supreme Court always saves its worst decisions for June?”

Maybe the first gentle breezes of summer fill them within explicable rage. We can't say for short. In any case, this June, the three of us with strict scrutiny are headed to New York City to break down all the cases in question and whatever horrors the Roberts Court hasn't store for us with judicial expertise. And those petty jokes Samuel Alito's expense in equal measure. Honestly, maybe more of the second. But you can catch strict scrutiny live at the historic Grammarcy Theatre on June 20th as part of the Bad Decisions Tour.

tickets are on sale now, grab them at crooked.com/events. Also, if you've been following the latest headlines around policing, ice and immigration enforcement, the Empire City Podcast Club from crooked ideas is a place to fully unpack it. Each week, host Changerai, Kuminika, and special guests dig into the systems behind those stories. How this power was built, who it serves, and what it means for public safety right now. Every session focuses on a new theme with space to connect the dots and ask bigger questions.

Whether you've been tracking every headline or just starting to tune in, you can be part of the conversation. We'll send a reminder before we kick things off. The next session is tomorrow. The Club will send a reminder before they kick things off. The next session is tomorrow, April 14th at 5 p.m. Pacific 8 p.m. Eastern. Sign up at crookedideas.org/empirecity.

Strict scrutiny is a crooked media production hosted and executive produced by me, Lea Lippon, Melissa Murray, and K-Shok. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rauh. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Music by Eddie Cooper, production support from Katie Long and Adrienne Hill. Matthew Groot is our head of production, and thanks to our digital team.

Ben Hathcoe, Johanna Case, Kenny Mothit, and Eric Shoot. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the writer's guild of America, East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict scrutiny in your favorite podcast app

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