How Worker Co-ops Works

Guaranteed human. - Two percent.

“That's the number of people who take the stairs”

when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Leister. And on my podcast, two percent, I break down the signs of Neville toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern worry. Put yourself through some hardships,

and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to two percent, that's TWO percent on the eye-heart radio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

- Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Noah Khan. The singer songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit, sticks season. I'm one of the biggest voices in music today.

- Talk about the mental illness stuff. It used to be the thing that I was ashamed of.

Getting the talk about this is not common for me.

- Right now, I need it more than ever. Listen to on-purpose, with Jay Shetty, on the eye-heart radio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Hey, it's Noah Jones, and my podcast playing along

is back with more of my favorite musicians. Check out my newest episode with Josh Grobin. - You even did the fan show at that point. - Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom of that. - That's so funny.

- ♪ Shall we stand with me tonight ♪ ♪ It's morning ♪ - Listen to Noah Jones is playing along on the eye-heart radio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

- Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of Eye-Heart Radio. - Hey, and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff You Should Know,

“and it turns out that this is Stuff You Should Know”

about worker cooperatives, which you might be more familiar with as co-ops. Not coops, that's why they put the hyphen in there because it can get pretty confusing. - Yeah, in fact, I went back

when I titled this episode for Jerry, and added that hyphen because Jerry would say, what is this thing about coops? - Yep, yep. - And I'm sure Aaron Cooper's like,

oh, but don't get your hopes up Aaron, we're not talking about you. Wait, we just did. - It's finally happened.

- So, Chuck, just let me leave the scene here for a second.

- Okay. - Because coops, especially for those of us in the United States, they are like, I can think of one, and that is in Atlanta, and it is called Sevenanda, and it is one of the few vegetarian grocery stores

in the entire country. That's my experience with a co-op, right? - Yeah, Sevenanda, legendary store. - It is in its great, great, great grocery store. So they're kind of like this almost like fringe thing,

especially in the US, and basically everywhere, they're not really mainstream. But there is a time where there are people who are like, this is the way to go. This is how industry should develop,

and it all just like most things they have to do with labor and capital, stemmed from the industrial revolution. And it was a path that people that we could have taken, and we so took the capitalist route.

- Yeah. - We don't even question the idea that people with money buy a mill and all the equipment, and they hire you and put you to work and in return for your work, they give you a wage,

and they manage things, and they say, go do this, do that faster, stop doing that, and do this instead. And again, we just don't even question it, 'cause it's so normal,

but there's an alternative, worker cooperatives, that it's just a different way of doing things, and the idea that it could have been the way things went, is really surprising and interesting. - Yeah, well, you forgot the last part

of that little descriptor, which is, they get the money, the profit from that set business, because that's your own owner, yeah. - That's true, yeah, and we don't really question that.

“Although, that's a little more easily questioned, you know?”

- Yeah, but that push co-ops now in the United States to this fringe area where you might have a, you kind of look at them as early as I do, is like these little hippie operations, like seven Honda, like this little vegetarian grocery store

that has been in little five points, since I mean, it's got to be since the 70s, don't you think? - It sure seems that way, yes. - Yeah, I mean, some of the stuff on the shelves looks like it's been there since the 70s.

- Yeah, for sure, it's definitely got that, that well-lived-in feel for sure. - Yeah, it's great, but yeah, it's a fringe thing for the United States, and I guess we could go back in time

where this idea was sort of born,

“and I know we've talked about onism before, haven't we?”

- I don't know if we've talked about onism, but we've definitely talked about the chartists, but I mean, we've talked about so many utopian societies for the 19th century who can keep track. - Yeah, I guess you're right,

or maybe I'm thinking of, I don't know, one of those other ones. But yeah, this was a utopian sort of philosophy. Owen is a named after a guy named Owen, Robert Owen, he was a Welsh mill owner.

And he had this vision that you were kind of talking about, like, hey, it's early on, it's in 1825, and there's a way forward that could be great for everyone. He tried this out in New Harmony, Indiana,

like I said, in 1825 for the first time.

- Yeah, it didn't really live very long. New Harmony, Indiana is still there. It's not a utopian society any longer, although it looks like a nice town based on its website. But his whole idea was like, what happens

if everybody kind of takes care of everybody else in this, again, mill, I think he was a mill owner, to where like your children are schooled and fed? And you have opportunities for education outside of your work.

And he found that productivity goes through the roof in those situations. So it wasn't like this is the first worker cooperative. He helped lay the groundwork for this. And he inspired a lot of other people through Owenism,

both in the United States and the UK. - Yeah, for sure. I don't know if they were using the S-word back then. I don't know how much we're gonna use the S-word,

“but it's impossible to, I think, not use the word socialism”

at some point when talking about, at least some of these early ideas, because they were very much sort of socialist ideas of let's take, like you said, let's take care of everyone. Let's have all boats rise and everyone ship in,

sort of in a hippie commune kind of way initially. - Yeah, and I was thinking about that.

I read something that was basically like,

this is socialism in, like, its purest form. It's not like a planned central government or planned society. It's more just like, "Hey, let's all take care of each other, "let's all contribute, let's all benefit." That's about the extent of it.

And I was thinking about socialism too, the way that you just basically danced around it. Like we do in the United States here. - I know. - If you're trying to explain something to somebody,

that has a socialist change to a socialist in nature, look at how you can't, yeah, exactly. Like you can't use that word. And it occurred to me that, like, it's just basically approached, like, it's a brand.

You got socialism, you got capitalism. - Right. - And when you buy into socialism, it's like you're buying a kit, and here's your socialist society.

- Right. - Like you can't just kind of pick and choose what makes sense, and you don't have to go all socialism. You don't have to go all capitalism. You can take the best of everything and put it together,

if you want to, you know? - Yeah, here's your socialist kit. Here's mediocre everything. Just open it up and enjoy your mediocre life with mediocre things, because nothing is awesome

because capitalist art and charge of making things perfect or great. - Right. - All right, so we talked briefly about Robert Owen with this short-lived, sort of hippie commune in New Harmony.

And you mentioned that that inspired people, and at least overseas and England and here in America,

but the first real cooperative, a lot of people

talk about the Roastale Pioneers, which is your Manchester Roastale is, and they were final makers. They wove, flannel, it's a big seat of flannel manufacturing for like hundreds of years.

And they started staging, the workers there started staging strikes kind of when industrialization hit, because you mentioned that the beginnings of co-ops were kind of lockstep with the beginnings

of the industrial revolution. - Yes, for sure, because there was this idea that like, okay, you don't have to submit yourself to a wage labor, your work is valuable.

“You should own your own work and lease it out”

as you see fit. That was kind of the way that they were thinking. And so the weavers ended up forming, and I think 60 of them got together and formed the Roastale Friendly Cooperative Society.

- Sounds good. - I'm sure just based on experience we're mispronouncing, it's probably like Riddle, the UK, but it spelled ROCH-D-A-L-E. And it was a retail store, right?

It was basically you could get flour and butter and all this stuff, and this is where the basis of co-operatives come from. This is the first co-op store that existed in the world and the whole idea was,

you got all these people who make this stuff,

dividing the fruits of their labor up evenly, and then taking the profits and like reinvesting it and making this business better, but rather than one rich person, you have a bunch of non-rich people

who can conceivably come up with the same amount of money as a rich person. And if you do that, all of a sudden you own the factory, and it's just divided equally among all the people who put in for it and are working for it.

That's where that's the basis of all co-ops. - Yeah, this one, the friendly co-operative society didn't last long, that store was just a couple of years.

“I think it was 1830 when it opened in about 14 years later,”

they got together and they tried it again. There were some people from that original society. They got together with other people who were unemployed or facing poverty or hungry. So some of those Owenites and they said,

"Hey, let's give this another go." And this time it was called the Rushdale Society of Equitable Pioneers. And you'll see that this is kind of a,

it's not always 'cause all co-ops operate in their own way,

but they had to pay to be a part of it. So everybody chips in a little bit of money in this case for the Society of Equitable Pioneers. It was just one pound each and they got it going and said, "Hey, we're gonna do the same thing.

We're gonna have a general store basically." And we use the profits from that to build housing for people who are members of the co-op and we can buy up some land. And if you're not, if you are a co-op member and you're not working, you could farm there

and grow crops for everybody. And it was very much in that Owenite model. - Yeah, so they went from just being a co-op store to trying to get a whole utopian community formed. And again, that didn't go very far.

I don't know that there is any utopian community that's still around today. They don't seem to last very long. Maybe there's no such thing as utopia. - Yeah.

- But that store model became, like just, what all co-ops were based on after that. And in fact, the Rushdale Pioneers co-operative store mushroomed into what's now called today the co-operative group,

which is a multi-billion-pound operation,

a bunch of different co-ops and a bunch of different sectors that are all part of this larger co-op, the co-operative group in the UK. That it grew from the Rushdale Pioneers. Not like inspired from it.

“I believe it actually grew from that act.”

- I think so, yeah. - Group, yeah. - Yeah, and you'll see that as a comment saying too, where the largest co-ops in the world and we'll talk about some later on in Spain

and India are groups of co-ops that have formed larger co-ops 'cause it whole ideas that there's a lot more you can get done with a lot more people, obviously. - Yeah, a lot more companies, like a different companies can stand in

for different individual workers, you know? I think that's neat. - So in the United States, it was really post-civil war when things started to boom. And in particular, black Americans after the civil war

were the ones who kind of got this idea going because they were obviously, you know, post-civil war having a hard time with wide-owned businesses being treated poorly, obviously. And they're like, well, why don't we get our own thing going?

And one of the places that one of the earlier ones was started in Baltimore when black trade unionists, they were led by a guy named Isaac Meyers, founded what's called the Colored Caucus Trade Union and Society.

- Yeah, Caucus were the people who worked in shipyards that water proof the ships, make sure they didn't leak, right? And it was traditionally a black dominated profession but black people were starting to get edged out

in shipyards, so this colored Caucus trade union society just decided to buy a shipyard themselves so that they could employ black Caucus. And they did exactly that. They also bought railways and just started founding this huge,

essentially co-operative empire of black workers. And then the artisans. - Yeah, I think they're also the ones who coined the contractor's term Caucus paint will make it what it ain't.

- I've not heard that one.

- Have you never heard that?

- No, did you make it up? - Oh, no, no, no, that's really. - Yeah, there's two contractor terms that basically mean you're getting kind of shoty work. - Right, right.

- Caucus and paint, I'll make it what it ain't and my favorite one, which is, I can't see it from my house. - Oh, that's an app for that one. - That one really stinks.

- Yeah, especially when they're talking about your work. - Yeah, exactly. - Well, at any rate, yes.

“The Caucus did come up with that, I believe.”

- That's right, so under initial statement.

when farmers started banding together

“and in this case, post of award black farmers,”

were excluded from the Southern Farmers Alliance. And they formed the colored farmers National Alliance and Cooperative Society,

which had a million members or more by 1891.

And this wasn't sort of a strict, you know, definition of a co-op that was more like, hey, we're all farmers, so let's all sort of just cooperate with one another and share information and you know, lift each other up.

- Yeah, and because they were dealing with the Jim Crow South, posts of a war south and all of that, they were basically faced with an option, like just submit yourself to really bad treatment or figure out how to come together.

You don't have to know about co-ops throughout history to come up with your own co-op. It's actually like a general idea that any group would stumble upon, typically when they're being mistreated

or when they don't have the resources to improve their lives, they realize like, well, wait a minute, we're in the same boat. Let's just put our resources together and improve our lives that way together.

- Yeah, and this was like this was spreading as a philosophy more so than like all these concrete examples of like literal co-ops, that would come a little bit later. But one of those other sort of ideas that was spreading mixed in with this

was something called labor Republicanism. And that was just, you know, aligning with this sort of the idea that, hey, you know,

“if you want real freedom, then you need to be able”

to control your work and not just be a wage laborer. - Right, you own that work. This was what I was talking about earlier. You own that work, you've leased it out as you see fit. You're not submitting yourself to wage slavery.

Like that's what that's all about. Now, apparently there's a debate going on still today between labor Republicanism and just universal basic income, which one is actually the way to actual freedom from being dominated by some boss.

- Yeah, for sure. It's also tied into, you know, the rise of unions and unionism for sure, don't you think? - Yeah, there's the Knights of Labor, which were basically the first massive union

in the United States that came close to a million members

by the 1880s. Their whole thing was essentially setting up worker co-operatives, like creating an economy in the United States based around co-ops, collectives, things like labor, a public canism.

That's exactly what they were about. And they were pretty successful. To an extent, I think we can see today

“that they weren't actually successful at all.”

And instead, they were supplanted by a much more business friendly union, the American Federation of Labor, which became even more massive. - Yeah, and that was less like,

hey, let's get rid of these bosses and make a co-op, and it was like, let's try and find a way to work with them. - Right. - And, you know, in true union style,

like get fair pay and all that kind of stuff, which is great. But just sort of straight from that co-op idea, a little bit more, and I think in 1895,

was when finally the International Cooperative Alliance

was formed, and that was, you know, these are, this is like a worldwide organization, obviously international. - Sure. - What if they were just based in Topeka,

with no connection outside of Topeka, but they're shooting for the sky. - Yeah, that'd be fun. - You wanna take a break? - Yeah, we'll take a break,

and we'll talk a little bit just sort of how these things worked right after this. (upbeat music) - 2%, that is the number of people who take the stairs

when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, an on my podcast, 2%, I break down the signs of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. All be speaking with writers, researchers,

and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the in-practical, and a way to complex pseudo science that dominates the wellness industry. - We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory.

We got it wrong, many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world, are the result of stress. - Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side,

a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. - Listen to 2%, that's TWO% on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - 10, 10 shots, 5, City Hall building, a silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.

This is Worshack, Murder at City Hall.

“- Could this have happened in City Hall?”

Somebody tell me that! - July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons, and in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead.

And everybody in the chambers of dogs, a shocking public murder. - A scream, get down, get down. Those are shots, those are shots, get down. - A charismatic politician.

- You know, he just bent the rules all the time. - I still have a weapon, and I could shoot you. - And an outsider with a secret. - The alleged human effect of flat-down. - That may have been not have been political,

that may have been about six. - Listen to Worshack, Murder at City Hall, on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on-purpose podcast.

My latest episode is with Noah Khan. The singer songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit, sticks season, and one of the biggest voices in music today.

“Noah opens up about the pressure that followed his rapist success.”

His struggles with mental health and body image, and the fear of starting again after such a defining moment in his career. - It's easy to look at somebody and be like, "Your life must be so sick."

Man, you have no (beep) clue. Talking about the mental illness stuff. It used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically

or in pain and some emotional way in my life to create good music. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm good." Someone says that I suck, I'm like, (beep)

"I suck." (laughs) Getting the talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever. - Listen to on-purpose, with Jay Shetty,

on the I-Haw Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)

“- All right, we're back to talk, this is Libby, I think,”

and she called this section nuts and bolts 'cause that's exactly what it is. - Sure. - This is, these are all sort of listed under the Roastale Principles of Cooperation,

which the ICA, the International Cooperative Alliance adopted in 1995.

And it's a series of bullet points basically

of generally how co-ops can work. But like I said, they're all, they all have their own nuances, but the first one is probably true across all cases. You have a membership that is voluntary,

and anyone can join as long as they fit the bill like you can't discriminate. - Yeah, there are some slight differences among co-ops that, as these bullet points start to spread out, that one seems to be like, that's a common

a universality, you know? - Yeah. - There's also another one, they need to be run democratically with one vote per member.

There's another way to do it that some co-ops choose where the more shares you have, the more votes you have. So one share equals one vote rather than one worker equals one vote. So one worker can amass 10 shares,

and they'll have 10 votes, the pose to the other workers who just have one share each. - For sure, and that capital that you have is also controlled democratically,

and should serve the organization's goals and not just the CEO or whatever. - Right, like if you're honey makers, you wouldn't want to use your profits to invest in like an up-and-coming B extermination on it.

- Right. - It'd be worth it. - It makes sense. - Yeah, you also want to be autonomous. I love this one too, like it doesn't matter who you sign a contract with, whether it's a government

contractor with another business, a corporate vulture who cares. There's nothing in that contract

that can basically undermine any of this,

the worker's democratic voice, the sharing of profits. It being opened to all, nothing can undermine that. I love that one, because they're autonomous. They're like, "We don't need you."

- Yeah, that's great. Another thing that you have to do is you got to train up your folks, got to coach 'em up, so they can all be contributors,

and then another part of that is, just letting people know what's going on that you're not some weird fringe group, but educate the people on what sort of the benefits of cooperative work.

- You're right. And then they're like, "All co-op smells like this." - Yeah. (laughs) - And then you want to work with other co-operatives. That's a big one too, I mean, supporting one another,

because even in societies where they really support co-ops, they still have the decks stacked against them.

the better off each co-ops going to be, you know? - Yeah, for sure.

And they always give back to the community,

it seems like, that's part of getting the word out is doing good work in the community, and so people see, like, "Oh, this is that co-op that's doing the part cleanup," or anything sort of like that.

And here's the deal, we said there's a lot of different ways you can structure these. Not, if you see there's a co-op, it doesn't mean every single person that's working there that day is a member owner,

“because a lot of times you have to kind of prove your”

in it for the long haul, like there's a probationary period. Sometimes you have to buy into it financially, but not always. And also sometimes you're either buying in financially and/or being voted in by existing members.

- Yes, by BIF. - That's right.

And the sort of the final thing is how it works,

the structure at the top, because even though it's a co-op, you still need to have kind of people near the top in charge of the higher upper management sort of decisions, especially if they're larger co-ops.

'Cause you can have some smaller co-ops that are a little more like, you know, probably like seven on to where you have workers that are voting directly on just about everything that happens with a co-op.

But the bigger you get, the more you might see a structure where those workers aren't voting on everything directly, but they're electing some of their own to sort of act as the executive branch, or maybe who, you know, go out and hire leadership staff

or form a board or something like that. But they're voting on the people that do that.

“And, you know, ideally, and I think usually,”

in most cases, they're bringing in the people that are gonna want to serve the co-op well. It's not like all of a sudden, they're like, oh no, we got this board in there that's now taking over and changing it to a more capitalist structure.

Right, we're gonna bring in a young hot shot fresh out of a private equity firm to take over. Not a good idea. And again, it's like some co-ops face easier goes of it and depending on the country you're in,

and depending even on the state, it can be easier than others. If you're in the Pacific Northwest, you can turn to the Northwest Cooperative Development Center and cooperative fund of the Northeast.

It just keeps going. And they'll essentially tell you how to convert your business into a co-op, which you can do if you have an existing business, how to start a co-op from scratch,

all the ins and outs that kind of thing. And again, this is highly necessary to have somebody who has expertise in understanding on how to navigate co-op operations in the United States, or in other countries too.

Co-op ops. Yeah, so, you know, there are definitely some efforts in the United States to assist people that have these ideas. It's just not as robust as, like in other countries. And speaking of other countries,

I know we talked about Spain early on, and that is the home of the largest,

the most prominent co-op in the world basically,

which is the, I'm gonna say, Mondragon. That's what I would say too. Not the Mondragon, even though that's way cooler.

“So it is, and that's how I want to put it to.”

Yeah, but the Mondragon corporation is a collective of, again, this is one of those, it's a bunch of co-ops that got together to make a larger co-op in the basque region of Spain, and it's named for the town of Mondragon.

Yes, and it was founded by Jose Maria, a Rizmendia Rietta, that is quite a name. Nice. Believe me, I know. He is a priest, or he was a priest,

who was actually started out as a journalist writing against the fascists, against the Franco regime, in the Spanish Civil War in the '30s, after the war became a priest, and he was assigned to the town of Mondragon in 1941,

and he said, "Hey, Mondragon, "we are going to go capital S word all the way in this town." Yeah, he, you know, doing good stuff, like, "Hey, let's create a medical clinic. "Let's get some housing going for these people.

"What about technical schools and education "to like lift everybody up?" And in 1956, there were five workers who had been part of this, you know, planned with him, and they created a cooperative company

to make care of seniors. That's how they got their start. The biggest one in the world started out making care of seniors initially. Yeah, for sure, and then it just started to grow from there.

They created their own pension and healthcare systems. Essentially, every time the town faced a problem, they needed something like funding for a new co-op, and they couldn't get it from the outside world. They just did it themselves.

So each new problem, each new obstacle,

and it just kept growing and growing from there. And eventually, it became the Mondragon Corporation, which is enormous, it employs something like 80,000 people today. And it's made up of again, like you said, 95 different co-ops, coming together as a co-op themselves.

Yeah, and how it works for them, they are one of the ones that has one of those probationary periods before you can become a member. And once you've done that, you are a shareholder. You are a worker and a shareholder in that company.

And you're voting on all the stuff it takes to run a corporation. Your business strategies, what kind of money people make. Everyone gets an equal vote. They do have a governing council,

and that one, because it's a big, unwieldy one. So they need sort of a higher up council. There's a managing director, and they sort of act as like a CEO. But, and this is super awesome,

and kind of one of the keys, is the highest paid person there.

They have like a wage cap, basically,

for what you would call a CEO. And the highest paid wage earner can be paid. No more than six times the salary of the lowest paid. If you look at a regular capitalist American corporation, that number is about 350 to one, rather than six to one.

- Yeah, this is pretty impressive. They also share the co-ops profits, the member owners. And they have to make difficult choices. This is something that co-ops are good at. This is why co-ops are pro-worker.

Like if there's a hard time and economic downturn or something like that, and sales are down, profits are down. Most capitalist companies just lay people off. They ramp up a lot of workers in like fat times, and then they just cut them in lean times.

Co-ops don't tend to do that. Instead, they tend to all agree to take a pay cut to spread the pain around so that no one person has to take the brunt of it, or no one group of people have to take the brunt of it and lose their job.

- Yeah, for sure. And they've had to change things a little bit over the years.

“That ratio, I think, that I said was six to one.”

That's an increase that used to be a three to one ratio of the highest paid to the lowest paid worker. So they've had to roll with the times a little bit, but six to one is still way different than 351. - For sure.

So this is the far and away the largest.

There's the second largest is nothing to sneeze at either.

The Earl Lungle Labor Contract Cooperative Society founded in Corolla, India has about 18,000 employees. And it was founded back in 1925, while the brits were still ruling India as a colony. And some of the workers from the lower cast,

I think 16 of 'em, got together to pull their money and said, hey, we're gonna start repairing roads, government, give us some contracts, and that's where the whole thing started. - Yeah, for sure.

Then you know, the first prime minister of India, Nairu was basically very much into the idea of these workers co-ops and farmers co-ops. And, you know, did a lot to encourage and incentivize these, popping up over there.

“I think there are a ton of Indian cooperatives,”

and this is just the biggest one. At like 18,000 employees. - Right, yeah. - Yeah, Nairu also encouraged people to rethink their jackets.

- Right, oh man, those are good looking. I can't get away with those, but those are good. - Well, okay, so that's India.

I guess that's kind of second to Spain,

like we said, at least as far as the largest co-ops go. But Italy, I would say, is possibly the country that supports co-ops, the most on a societal level. - It seems like there's that S word streak

still running through Italy to a large degree. - Sure, yeah. - Yeah, so the Italian government gives financial incentives to start and run a co-op. There's laws that say if you don't run a co-op,

you have to give up one of your kids. They're really pro-co-op. They also, this is another thing, too, that co-op, some co-ops come out of, where a company will be failing.

And the owners would be like, well, that's it for me. I'm ruined, and the employees will be like, well, we still have some money that we can put together, let us buy the company from you, and the owner will sell the company to the employees,

and the government of Italy helps facilitate this kind of thing to make it more likely, and that makes so much more sense than just letting a company fail, let the workers buy it if they want to,

and run it as a co-op, let them all in the company. - Yeah, that's a big thing that happened in Argentina,

“and I sort of remember this in the early 2000s,”

when Argentina was having such a rough time,

and they were just talking about,

they were like, well, hey, this factory is going out of business, so let's as employees get together and buy these things, and it became known as the National Movement of Recovered Companies, and they're about 400 of these, still going strong.

- Yeah, what's cool about the Argentinian model, too,

“is I think they actually took over these companies,”

they were all laid off, and they're like, oh, yeah, watch this, I think that's pretty neat. - Yeah, Mexico is well known for fishing cooperatives. This happens around the world, but Mexico has some pretty strong ones.

One of the cool things is that there's often lacks enforcement of things like sustainability and catch quotas among fishermen and in Mexico. So these co-ops tend to support sustainability themselves. By essentially paying attention to one another

and making sure everybody's acting fairly, sustainability just grows out of that. - So, you want to take another break? - Oh, yeah, I didn't see that coming. - All right, we'll come back right after this

and Josh will speak first

because that's how we do things. (upbeat music) - Two percent, that is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

“I'm Michael Ecer, an on my podcast, two percent.”

I've worked on the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. All be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts and more, to look past the in-practical

and the way to complex pseudo science that dominates the wellness industry. - We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong, many of the problems that we are freaked out

about in the world are the result of stress. - Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. - Listen to 2%, that's TWO percent

on the I-Hart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - 10-10 shots, five city oil building. - A silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene. - From I-Hart Podcasts and best case studios.

This is Worshack, murder at City Hall.

“- Could this have happened at City Hall?”

Somebody tell me that! - July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons. Hand in less than 30 minutes.

Both of them will be dead. - And have everybody in the chambers of dogs, a shocking public murder. - A scream, get down, get down. Those are shots, those are shots, get down.

- A charismatic politician. - You know, he just bent the rules all the time. - I still have a weapon. - And I could shoot you. - And an outsider with a secret.

- He alleged he was effective flat-down. - That may have been not have been political. That may have been about six. - Listen to Worshack, murder at City Hall on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you could get your podcasts. - Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Noah Kahn. The singer songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit, stick season, and one of the biggest voices in music today.

Noah opens up about the pressure that followed his rapist success. His struggles with mental health and body image, and the fear of starting again after such a defining moment in his career. - It's easy to look at somebody

and be like, "Your life must be so sick." Man, you have no (beep) clue. Talking about the mental illness stuff. It used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea

that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain and some emotional way in my life to create good music. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm good."

Someone says that I suck, I'm like, "B*tch, I suck." (laughs) Getting the talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever. - Listen to on-purpose, with Jay Shetty,

on the I-Haw Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - So Chuck, it's probably not a surprise as we've seen compared to other countries.

The United States is not exactly up to speed as far as co-ops are concerned. There's potentially seven to 10,000 Americans

out of what 360 something million

That's not a very significant number,

“but there are the people who are employed there”

are happier than you will ever be in your entire life. - Yeah, probably so. The largest one in the United States is the cooperative home care associates who started in the Bronx in 1985

when 12 home health aids came together. It said, "Hey, there's gotta be a better way." And they started recruiting people, and they've got, wow, out of that seven to 10,000, 2000 of them work for the UCHCA.

- Yeah, and then they also typically hire women of color and immigrants, usually low income, and train them to be home health aids, and then eventually with a thousand dollar payment, you can buy in and become a worker member owner.

And they tend to have people have compared this model to actually this company, to other home health aid companies, and the workers tend to have greater job satisfaction. They trust management more because they're talking about

themselves in a lot of cases, but even the workers who aren't member owners tend to have a higher trust in management. And this is where people are like, "I don't get it."

Like, "Why would you do this?" Because what you're doing is creating a social good. Like, it's not just about maximizing profits, and I believe cooperative home care associates, it's a for-profit company, and co-ops can be for-profit,

they don't have to be on profit, but they're proving that you can still promote a social good. You can still make society a better place, and still turn a profit. It's just not, you know,

you're not gonna ever set the stock market on fire. That's not a point. The point is more to create the social good, and that's one of the things that the cooperative home care associates does. - Yeah, for sure.

There's some other cool examples here. I'm gonna jump to, I know you know where I'm going, because Livia included the podcast company, Maximum Fund. - Yeah.

“- Long time supporters of stuff you should know,”

Maximum Fund was a single soul owner in Jesse Thorn. - Yeah. - Yeah, he was a mogul very early on. He's a guy that set up Mark Marin initially in his garage with equipment, and it was like here's how you do podcasting.

So Jesse's a pioneer in the business itself, obviously does Judge John Hodgman with our pal, and Jordan Jesse Go, and Bullseye with Jesse Thorn, a great interview show, but Maximum Fund was his. He started it as a very sort of forward-thinking young guy.

She's, I don't even know how many years ago, it had to be 20-ish years ago at this point. And three years ago, Jesse was like, you know what? I don't wanna run the show anymore, and I think Maximum Fund could transition to a co-op.

We've got these great employees, who are heavily invested, and why not see if they'll go all in, and they did, and Maximum Fund became a worker-owned co-op. - Yeah, which is pretty cool. I mean, even before that,

he had basically transferred ownership

of the individual shows to the show creators. And then, so it was a, I guess, kind of an easy, easy-ish leap into a co-op from there. So hats off, Jesse Thorn, and all the peeps at Maximum Fund.

The right. If you happen to be up in Maine, along the coast, in your island hopper, I could not find exactly what islands, but there is a trio of stores, the galley, a VNS variety and burnt co-op market,

and all three of them are worker-owned and operated. And they were, it was one of those situations. We're all three stores, we're being sold, and the owners couldn't find any buyers, and the workers were like, "Well, buy it."

So now 70 people off the coast of Maine are part of the island employee cooperative, which is, again, pretty cool. - Totally. - I don't think Maine has many islands,

so I'm surprised you didn't find out what the deal was. - I saw that the thing was headquartered, and I think stoning to Maine, but I didn't see what island that was on, who knows could be the mainland for all I know.

- So I'm not a, a, a, a, a noor Easter, an up Easter. - A Maineer? - Yeah, I'm from across the pond.

“- You're from away, I think, 'cause what they say.”

- Yeah, I know, I cannot tell you how much murder she wrote, I've seen in my life, and I still, I mean, picked up the lingo. Oh, yeah, cab it killed Maine.

- Yeah, I never saw, as you know,

never saw a single episode of murder she wrote, very sad about that. - I didn't know that, and I, you see you differently now. (laughing) - I need to, I need to check it out, I know it's a classic.

- It's an invite to the show. - I think my delivery might have been so dry that we're gonna get Germany's landlocked emails. I know there are thousands of islands off of Maine by the way. - Oh, okay, you got me, you fooled me, Chuck.

just at least mention E-SOPs or employee stock ownership plans.

- Yeah. - This isn't the same as a co-op, because you're, you're generally not getting, like, a vote on things and how things run. - Yeah, but it's, it's employees owning the business

and our beloved public supermarket chain is easily the largest employee owned company in the United States.

“I think if they own about employees of public zone”

about 80% of the company, which is a lot. - Yeah, it's like they have stock, but rather than being publicly traded, you have to be in a public employee to buy an own public stock and pretty cool.

- A lot of people retire pretty well to do because of the public stock that they have accrued over their career. - And it's, it's great for sure. - Yeah, Ace Hardware, that's another kind of cool,

and that's, you know, they're independent retailers,

and I think most people know that,

because your local Ace Hardware is owned and operated by somebody who lives there, which is kind of a cool model. - Yeah, like try buying something in one ace and then taking it back at the other ace, you're going to be sorely disappointed by my friend.

- Is that true? - Oh, yeah. They, oh, I didn't know that. I bought something, or I should say you me bought something at an ace, and I took it to the other ace,

owned by the same company, and because we bought it online, they could not, they could not return it. - Oh, interesting, I don't think I knew that, okay. - Yeah, be careful.

You have to go back to the same ace. It says it like on the sign. - Yeah, Ace is the place. - And the only place. - The helpful hardware folks, and that is it?

- Yeah, it is. - Should we end on that a few pros and cons? - Oh, well, I just real quick one to shout out a couple of co-ops that are non-profits. Subvert is an alternative to band camp.

It's a musician owned, and then fair,

“which I think is a clever use of the term,”

it's F-A-R-E. They're an alternative to Uber and Lyft and their co-ops. - Oh, okay. Yeah, there you go. - Yeah, I mean, that's, I gotta check out

and see fairs in Atlanta. - Okay. Okay. - I don't use Uber, I use Lyft, but I've heard they're bad now too.

So it's, I just don't even know who to get rides from. When I've had too much to drink anymore. - Yeah, I used to do Lyft, because supposedly they treated their people better, and I was talking to Lyft driver once, he's like, "No, Lyft is terrible."

Now, Uber's nice to their drivers, and it's like, "Well, who can keep up with this?" So I guess, yeah, I just take fair. - All right, I'm gonna check that out. pros and cons now?

- Yes. - All right, well, we've mentioned some of these along the way, but one pro is,

“you know, when we touched on, which was that ratio”

between the highest paid worker and the lowest paid worker. They're definitely, you know, the co-ops, you're not gonna see things just so out of whack in terms of wage earning. - No, that's huge.

Another one that's a pro in favor of co-ops, not all of them are pros and favor of co-ops. There are some cons too, like you said, pros and cons. But if you work for a co-op, the chances of you getting laid off are pretty low,

which you would think like, "Oh, okay, well, does our co-ops just run and work a staff by lazy people?" Turns out, no, because as an owner, a par owner of this co-op of this company that you're working for, you are a manager.

So if everybody's a manager, they feel emboldened and empowered to police other workers. Everybody's just kind of keeping one another honest because they all have such a stake in this

that co-op workers tend to actually be more productive and happier and less slack than workers who are essentially just wage labor. - Yeah, or what do they call it, quiet quitting? - Oh, I haven't heard that, but they make sense.

- Yeah, quiet quitting is when you're like phoning it in and just doing the bare minimum to not get fired. - Yeah, for sure. - Which is, yeah, not good, everybody. One con is, or I guess you would say it's a pro

for a non-co-op, is they tend to be able to move a little quicker and add quicker on stuff, if there's a crisis, or if there's anything that needs like really fast attention, they don't have to sweat, you know, taking boats and asking everyone and debating what they think.

So that can definitely sort of slow down in times of crisis if you're in a co-op. - Yes, but that said, you can make quick decisions and be more agile as a traditional capitalist company, but you can also make the wrong decision

and go down the wrong road. So with a co-op, because it's moving slower, it's not trying to be on the Fortune 500 or anything like that, they can take their time a little more. And so they actually tend to outlast a lot of other companies,

I guess, compared to other startups, co-ops tend to last

beyond the first five years, say against a tech startup

or something like that, because you can take your time

- Yeah, for sure. - And yeah, just jobs satisfaction, and we talked about this a few times,

“but overall, people that work for co-ops”

tend to report much happier lives, basically,

and in terms of their jobs. - That's right, I guess that's it for co-ops, Chuck. - I think so. - Well, we both agree that that's it for co-ops,

which means it's time for listen or move. (bell ringing) (bell ringing) - Yeah, there's a follow-up on the West Cow loon walled city episode, which I thoroughly enjoyed personally.

- Yeah, me too. - Hey guys, just listen to the episode or reminded me of the Panta, I guess, P-O-N-T, or Pante City Tower and Johannesburg. Pante City was completed in 1975 and originally intended

to be a luxury development for the city's rich white folks, however, it quickly descended into decay

“for various reasons and is widely regarded”

as becoming the world's first, quote, vertical slum

in quote by the late '80s. It said that at its worst, the vast central core of the building was filled with trash, including human remains, all the way up to the fifth or sixth floor.

When I was visiting friends in Johannesburg back in 2013, I did a tour of the Tower with one of the residents to truly astonishing building with a super interesting story of Grandor and rapid descent into chaos and looks to be coming back again.

Pante has been used for sets of several sci-fi films, Neil Blom Camp is a big fan, and was also the inspiration for the tower setting of the questionable 2012 dread reboot. Hmm, thanks for the great stuff.

That is from Bobby Bobbyson and a picture from the interior of the city tower

“and it is indeed super sci-fi and interesting looking.”

- I gotta check that out, man. - Yeah. - And heard of that at all. - That was Bobby? - Yeah, Bobby.

- Well, thanks a lot, Bobby. That was a great email, we appreciate it. And if you want to be like Bobby and tell us about something that we didn't know about,

we're always welcoming those.

You can send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. - Stuff you should know is a production of sci-hat radio. For more podcasts to my heart radio,

visit the iheartradio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. - Two percent. That's the number of people who take the stairs

when there is also an escalator available. On Michael Easter, and on my podcast, two percent, I break down the signs of mevel toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern worry. You're self-through some hardships.

And you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. - Listen to two percent. That's TWO percent on the iheartradio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

- Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Noah Khan. The singer songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit, sticks season. I'm one of the biggest voices in music today.

- Talk about the mental illness stuff. It used to be the thing that I was ashamed of. Getting the talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever. - Listen to on-purpose DJ Shetty

on the iheartradio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Hey, it's Noah Jones, and my podcast playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians. Check out my newest episode with Josh Grobin.

- You even did the Phantom at that point. - Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom at that. - That's so funny. ♪ Shall we stand with me tonight ♪ ♪ Each morning ♪

- Listen to Noah Jones is playing along on the iheartradio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - This is an iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.