The Story of Starvation Heights

Guarantee the human.

“Hey guys, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, I'm Joe.”

I'm Kevin.

And I'm Nick, and guess what?

We created our own podcast. Oh, hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to our people to do podcasts.

We used to ask other people questions, because we're sick and tired of being an ask questions. Well, sick and tired of just a strong way to put it, but you know, tired and sick, tired and sick. Listen to hey, Jonas, on the "I Heart Radio App,"

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen, we don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, "Light Night Comedy Guy," not quite on humor me with Robert's "Michael" and "Friends." Me and hilarious guests from Bob Oden Creek

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Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was.

“Your identity is formed by a secret history.”

I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring the 14th season of "Family Secrets." He kind of showed me out of the way and said, "Move." And he went, "How could front door?"

And he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of "Family Secrets," on the "I Heart Radio App," Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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- Welcome to "Stuff You Should Know,"

a production of "I Heart Radio." (upbeat music) - Hey, welcome to "The Podcasts." I'm Josh, and Chuck's here too. Jerry's here too, and I'm here too that's me, Josh,

and this is "Stuff You Should Know." (upbeat music) - These were all three feeling weird edition. - Yeah, yeah, and that's strange. So, yeah, I said that I was just feeling kind of off today,

and you said, "Me too," and Jerry said, "Me three." - Yeah, what does that mean? - I don't know, but I mean, that is very, that's remarkable to me, that all three of us. I mean, we all have three different personalities.

We don't like, you know, we don't live together, despite what those people think. - Yeah, not anymore. - No, so, I don't know what it is, maybe some things in retrograde and something else,

or something like that. - That whole thing.

“- Stuff you should know is in retrograde, whatever that means.”

(laughs) - So, yeah, we'll do our best with this. I'll do my best not to break out on tears. - No, I think we'll be okay, and big thanks to Julia for helping us put together

this episode on one of the quacks of all quacks. I feel like we have covered quite a few quacks over the years. - Yeah, this one doesn't as bad as that one guy that we did though, but she's up there for sure. I mean, I think she still has her supporters,

like you can still buy her books online. - Yeah. - But most people who are familiar with their case are like, she was a serial killer. - Right, she just had a strange, strange method of murder.

- Yeah, of bleeding people of their money. - Yeah. - Yeah. - For sure, and their life force. - Yeah, as Toby Hooper might put it.

- That's right. - So, yeah, we're talking about a woman named Linda Burfield Perry Hazard. There's at least two hyphens in there. - Yeah.

- And she was born in the 19th century, but was doing most of her work in the late 19th or early 20th century. And she was a person who was vehemently opposed, like from what I could tell, like very seriously, like this was her personal philosophy,

against what would be called modern medicine today. But at the time, just starting out, as we'll see. - Yeah, for sure. She was a self-described fasting specialist. She had no medical degree.

She did have wealthy patients and I was about to say Patrons, but I guess they were patients. And she said she was the only fasting specialist in the world. And this was sort of the time of the Sanitarium Sanatorium world

where you could go off and practice some very questionable methods of healing people. - Yeah, like the Kellogg brothers, in Battle Creek. - Yeah, exactly, because we had not in the United States yet set up sort of rules around the medical world at this point.

- No, but it's common, it's like right around that time in part because of so much quackery that was going on. The same time, a lot of this stuff is what you would call alternative medicine today or just sensible stuff. Like, the Kellogg brothers had a bunch of weird stuff

and their whole jam was fairly weird,

a lot of it was like diet and exercise, which is just great advice today, as far as health is concerned.

The problem is, some people took this to terrible extremes.

Other people were peddling just outright fake and dangerous medicines, like, yeah, the outliers were so bad that they were ruining it for everybody who actually had some legitimate stuff that they were doing. And Linda Hazard was an outlier, although, again,

“I think she was a true believer in herself and her cure.”

- Yeah, for sure, but, you know, to be clear, she was not serving at Bols of Granula. She was killing people. Like, I think 15 patients starved to death under her watch. - Yes.

- And she would eventually go to trial for the murder of one. - Yeah, it was a sensation in 1912. - A real sensation. - Let's talk about Linda Burfield Perry Hazard,

who we're just gonna call Linda Hazard from here on out. But she was born Linda Burfield in Minnesota in 1867 as most people in 1867 were born. - What, really? - Really, and a lot of them in Minnesota,

I think something like 98% of births in 1867 took place in Minnesota. - That's incredible. - She actually had an experience. She wrote, again, a bunch of books 11 by my count.

- How well. - And so she said according to herself

“that she had been, she had run into modern medicine”

as a child and this doctor had given her some pills, blue mask pills, that are essentially mercury pills. And they were like fairly regularly used at the time, but they did not sit very well with her. - No, it made it really sick.

Like this, again, this is the day when they would, doctor would say, like, here take this thing because it'll cure basically anything you have.

And that's always the red flag, even if it's not pure snake oil,

this sort of cure all thing. - Yep. - And it made it really sick, very memorably so, like digestively for the most part. But after that, she was like, I'm done with doctors

and I'm gonna eventually be my own doctor and be a doctor to other people. She married a guy named Edwin Perry in 1886 had a couple of kids, got divorced. And apparently, I don't know if that led to her divorce

when she just sort of went center of left as far as her care goes, do you think that was it? - It's possible, that was the impression I have too, but I'm not sure there's so much just random stuff that people say about her that may or may not be true.

There's a lot of surmising. - I think it's a center of left too, by the way. - Yeah, the thing is, Chuck, is everyone new which you meant so that counts as a communication. You know, don't be such a prescriptionist.

- That's right, left of center. But she married Perry got divorced and then fell into the care of doctor Edwin Dewey, who was a faster, he preached fasting. He basically said that every disease that we have

comes from habitual eating and excess, basically, like you're out eating what your stomach and your gastric juices can handle. - Yeah, that was the sum total of Linda Hazard's whole thing. I mean, she had a three-prong approach

which was intense fasting, animal, animal. I've read that, that her animal's lasted for hours sometimes.

“- I think that was also the title of your second LP, right?”

- It was, it was my cover songs of William Shatt and her cover. - Correct. - That's right, yeah, that's actually appropriate title for that, or lobotomy lobotomy lobotomy. - Yeah.

- And then the other one was powerful massage

that I think calling a massage is fairly generous. She would pound on her patients and apparently show eliminate, eliminate, because again, she's trying to get undigested food and poop that's left over out of the body.

And by fasting, you're not introducing more food, you're letting the body rest while getting rid of the food that's been undigested, that's the source of all of your diseases. - Yeah, like you drank the colon cleanse

before your first colonoscopy kind of empty. - Yes, yeah. - Oh, she would have loved that stuff. - Yeah, probably so. She did take a few nursing classes.

You know, we have to mention that. I'm not trying to legitimize her anything, but she did take a few osteopathic nursing classes. She opened a fasting therapy practice in Minneapolis there.

This is when she went by Dr. Linda Burfield Perry, even though she was divorced from Edwin Perry. And yeah, she said, like, come on in, I'll beat on you.

like really not at all, as we'll see,

let's hold on to that little factoid, like how little these people are eating. - Right. - But she would find love again in 1903, or find something in the way of a swimler named Samuel Hazard,

who was a, he would go to jail for big of me, because he was already married, and I guess did not get divorced and also married Linda Burfield. And so he went to jail for a couple of years.

- Yeah. - And then got out of jail, and they're like, "All right, we're good to go, let's go to Seattle." - Yeah, and that's where her practice really started. The two of them together, like, really kind of established

this, well, they call it Wilderness Heights, and it was supposed to be like a Sanitarium or retreat where you went and got this fasting cure.

“And it's like you said, you have to be wary of cures”

that cure everything. - Yeah. - And that was very much the case with hers. - She apparently was saying like, once you go through the fasting cure

and you get all this crowd out, you're set. Like everything from you can go have a kid and have no pain during childbirth. You're not gonna get two things anymore. If you're an alcoholic, you won't be an alcoholic anymore.

If you're depressed, no more depression. Like it's a cure all from her stance.

That's how she basically advertised it, I guess.

- Yeah, so she's the main player here. Samuel, her husband is a little bit in the background, but he'll pop up here and there when it comes to the financials. And then our other couple of players

are Clare and Dora Williamson. They were English. They were daughters of an English military person. Evelyn Dorothy, her name was Dora, who she went by Dora Williamson.

She was born in India in 1873 and then her sister, Ined Lily and Clare Williamson was born in London in 1877. And they were basically from teenagers on had no parents. I think their father died after Clare was born and then their mom died about 16 years later.

So they were orphan teens who were really, really rich and really, really tight, very close with one another. - Yeah. - And seemed to be like adventurous, not in a hurry to get married,

which is what you would think for the time period, to get married right away. They kind of like to travel the world and go on adventures and not follow the prescribed method. - Yeah, they were independent women of the 90s.

- The 1890s. - That's right. So they also though, they weren't entirely orphaned. I mean, as far as biological parents may be your concern, but they had a governess who took care of them as well.

And I think kind of was part of their life long before their mother died, but I have the impression that she was like an additional mom or an additional grandmother or something to them, right?

“So I think that's how the rich you do it.”

- Yeah, for sure. So just keep that in mind that these women are slightly outside of the norm. They have no problem with being slightly outside of the norm. And they are very interesting and interested people

are very curious. And one of the things that they are focused on is natural health. Like they're just super into that kind of thing. And by the time they cross paths with Linda Hazard,

they've done all sorts of stuff. Like any kind of cure you can think of. They've traveled to some sanitarium or sanitarium. They've traveled to some health clinic. And they've just done this whole thing.

It's basically what they were interested in.

- Yeah, for sure. And they did some kind of brave things at the time for the time period. They were like, I don't wanna wear corsets anymore. They're super uncomfortable.

And I think they're probably bad for us. - Sure. - So they didn't wear corsets anymore. They gave up meat. Eating meat was being vegetarian, I guess,

at the very least was a pretty weird thing back then. - Yep. - So they were definitely following their own path. And then in 1910, they were in their 30s at this point. They were in the beautiful Empress Hotel

in Victoria, British Columbia.

“- You sounded like you're an announcer for the presses, right?”

- It looks really nice. I mean, it's still around for what I can tell, at least the pictures look modern. - Yeah, it's a fair amount now. - Oh, of course it is.

And that did mean that snarkly, like there's some very nice fair amounts. - Sure. - I'm glad you said that 'cause they're a huge sponsor, stuff you should know.

- Oh, they're not ready. - I don't think so. - It's like, why am I not getting any free juice there? - Right. - So at the time, it was like the nicest hotel in North America

and they saw an ad in the local paper from Dr. Hazard, and I guess we can call her a doctor, but mental easing scare quotes. And they wrote her a letter and said, "Hey, we're two sisters.

We'd like to visit wilderness Heights and work come into Seattle." - Nice. I think that's a great place to leave off for an ad break.

- Not much, man. - All right, we'll be right back. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers, and guess what?

We have some big news. - What's the news? - Which news? - We created our own podcast. - Oh, hey Jonas, we invented a podcast.

- Well, we didn't invent it, we just contributed to it.

- First people to do podcast.

- Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcast. - Podcasting and trend. - But this one's extra special. - So how do we actually come up with a name that I hate Jonas, guys?

- I honestly don't remember.

“- I think it was on a call about what we should call it.”

And, oh, we were thinking I originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. - Well, this is how you guys remember it going down. - Yes.

- I have a very different memory of this. - We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast. We put the call in and say, "Hey Jonas, "and then I broke down on my little note pad. "Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title."

- Oh, the fact that.

- But thanks for remembering that, guys.

Listen to hey Jonas on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen, we don't care where he hear it. - Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on humor me with Robert Smigle and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Oden Creek to David Letterman help make you funnier this week, my guest. SNL's Mikey Day and Headwriters, Streeter Side L. helped an Occupel a band with their between songs banter. - Where does your group perform?

- We do some retirement homes. - Those people are starving for banter.

“- Listen to humor me with Robert Smigle and friends”

on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the inner Cosmos podcast,

and for mental health awareness month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience.

We'll talk with singer-songwriter Joel about anxiety. - I started living in my car and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting, I was having panic attacks, I was a gorephobic, and making it through hardship. - To be present is a learned skill,

and it's hard to be present. - We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free.

- And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety,

“and John Hirschfield about obsessive compulsive disorder,”

and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course, and what we can do about it. - Listen to the inner Cosmos on the iHeart Radio App,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (dramatic music) - So, before we get back to Claire and Dora, and Linda Hazard, we should probably make like a little side note here that, like although Linda Hazard's stuff was bizarre,

like this, the extreme she took it to, like alternative medicine was still very much a thing. We did that whole episode on the Flexner Report,

which basically said, from now on,

and the United States and Europe, it's just like, medical science, that's it. Anything outside of that is Kuku Quackery and should be persecuted and run out of town on a rail, essentially. And so this was the time when you could still be

an alternative medicine practitioner, you could still be out or not, Quack. - Yeah. - And there was no blog against that yet, and this was definitely the gray area

that Linda Hazard fell in. - Yeah, and I think her case, and especially the case with these two sisters in particular, like it wasn't the leading reason, but it was definitely evidence as they move forward

with stuff like the Flexner Report, like changes is needed. Their fasting had been around for a long, long time, obviously people facet in the Bible, people facet in ancient Greece.

I think the Pockertes and Pythagoras, both were in defasting. So that was not a new thing, fasting is still a thing, and detoxes and cleanses. And we've done our fair share of podcasting

on that kind of stuff. So none of this is new or old. - No, we did one on course. It's too, I just remembered. - That's right.

- Yeah, one of the other things that is definitely

of undigested food being the source of all disease

that's eye-urvedic in nature too.

“Ancient Asian Indian medical practice basically says,”

if you have undigested food or build up a poop or whatever in your system, all disease emanates from that. So even Dr. Edward Dewey was not exactly like groundbreaking with that idea.

- Yeah, and people were like, it all comes from the poop, and they were like, have you smelled this stuff? (laughs) There's no way that's good.

- It's ghee roast. - What a poop, not, you know. I guess we're going there or I'm going there. - Okay. - What a poop didn't smell like that at all.

And I'm not saying, oh, what if it smelled like, you know, something great, like what if it just literally had no odor? And that was it, would the world be a really a better place? I say yes. - Yeah, I guess, sure.

I guess I don't smell enough poop in any given day that it really ruins the world for me. - Well, I mean, you have your outhouse. - Sure, but I steer yourself. - For yourself.

- I was just curious at the divorce rate, like what all would change. Airports, airport happiness. - Yeah, that was okay, yes, airports. That's a really good point right there.

- Yeah, that's the worst. - Yeah, it really is really bad. That's a good reason not to fly before like 10 a.m. - Like it's one thing to be married to somebody, but you don't want to smell the poop of 12 strangers.

- No, no, you don't.

“That's why it's not one chip poop in public bathrooms.”

They shouldn't even have toilets in there. All urinals all the time. - Yeah, they should have urinals and signs that say, hold it, right, just hold it. Have a poop, go to jail.

- All right, so, sorry to get to go off on a tangent there about poop, I'll just kind of,

you know, have never done that particular thought

experiment. - Okay. - Well, I'd like to. - All right, so she had her big book. I mean, she had 11 of them,

but I feel like the one as far as this goes, this most relevant is the one from 1908, it's called Fasting for the cure of disease. And that's where she laid out the program, which is just those three things, really.

Fast to get beaten on and get those, as Josh says, and Emma, and Emma, and Emma, and the first person to die from this treatment, she wrote the book after six years after this, which is pretty disturbing.

“But in 1902, at her Minneapolis practice,”

there was a woman who was partially paralyzed and very sadly she died on day 37 of a 40 day fast. And Linda Hazard, as the doctor, said, cause of death paralysis.

- Yeah, that would be a recurring theme, as we'll see. - Right. - Because she also, she was declaring the cause of death for her patients as a physician, even though she wasn't really a physician.

And I guess still, even at this time, under circumstances like this, the local coroner would still take a look at any dead body, solve the body of this woman, gurtured young, and was like,

I don't know that this was paralysis that did this, because she's pretty emaciated. Let's perform an autopsy and see what happens. Looked inside of poor gurtured young, and said, yep, she died of starvation,

just as I suspected. - That's right. And as we'll see later, Linda Hazard didn't think that was a viable way of dying.

She's basically like, you can't starve

some of the death, it's not possible. - Right. - So she's wrong about that. But she did not have a medical license. So she could not be like brought up on charges or anything.

- Mm-hmm. - She was telling this woman to fast and the woman was fasting. She didn't have her locked up and chained to a bed or anything like that.

She was just following the advice of the wrong person. - Exactly. And yeah, Linda Hazard could just like, shrug and be like, you know what are you gonna do? - Yeah.

- This was like years after when she and her husband Samuel moved to Seattle and started their practice together. So that's not why she moved. This was just the first body in her long body count, essentially.

- Yeah, I mean, bodies, people started dying at her practice in Washington as well. And there in Washington at the time, you could be grandfathered in as far as what kind of alternative medicine you were practicing.

So she was kind of all good there. In 1907 is when she started treating patients in Washington. And, you know, right away, again, this wasn't like the weirdest stuff at the time. So she had some of the elite of Washington,

like state legislators coming there. It was, it wasn't like, oh, that weird lady in the woods that's killing people. It was, you know, it was sort of the fashion of the day

- Yeah, also, there was a real difference

to her from the local population, which were typically Swedish immigrants, who were not necessarily formally educated. They didn't have a lot of money. So this was like, she made a lot of money, we should say,

multiple times throughout her career. So she was wealthy. She had a lot of land. She was a doctor, so she said. She was much more highly educated

than anyone else in the area that they knew. So she, she, like, she was popular and people just kind of respected her in this area too. So in addition to these wealthy and kind of elite, you know, alternative medicine, file patrons

and customers, just the local people who had nothing to do with this still thought fairly highly of her too. - Yeah, for sure. Even though people were dying,

“I think by the time the Williamson's sisters arrived”

in 1911, seven patients had died under her care at six from starvation. - Yeah. - What looked to be starvation. And what was also learned was, like you said,

she performed all the autopsy's herself. And it was also revealed that the states of these people were left to the sanatorium. So she was also taking their money, even though it was, you know, from the outside

under the guys of like they believed in her so much, they wanted her practice to continue. - Yes, exactly. And this is where it really becomes murdery, you know? - Yeah, it's like the super nefarious.

- Something else that was gross that I found was, so the wilderness heights was like a few, like a handful of primitive cabins and then her cottage. And her cottage still stood until like 2014, 2015.

- Oh, wow. - Yeah, and you could go into her cottage and it was still furnishings and including your bathtub and the bathtub of her cottage is where she was performing her autopsy's.

- Oh, geez. - So that to me kind of like really gets across like, this is not like a super polished outfit, you know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah, for sure.

“- And I think that's important to keep in mind”

to she basically built some ruffian cabins

in the woods in Washington and called this like her sanitarium. - Yeah, and this is, by the way, in a lot of woods, Washington. - Yes, so close to walla walla. - So close.

So Claire and Dora get there in February of 1911 and she was like, hey, we're not gonna stay here in wilderness heights. I'm not sure why she did this. I have a feeling that she knew that she had some big fish

on the line. - Yeah, that's what I mean. - So she took them to Seattle instead and she basically lied to him and said that the Allalla woods retreat

wasn't completed yet, even though I think it clearly was. So they put them up in some apartments in downtown Seattle, started their fasting treatment and the vigorous massage and they were eating two cups of vegetable broth.

Sounds like basically canned tomato juice a day.

- I also saw, I think Dora later said that they were made from asparagus, tips, spinach and lettuce, a broth made from that. - Yeah, veggie broth. - Yeah, so not anything that you could possibly

even remotely get full off of.

“Yeah, like you said, I think a cup twice a day.”

- Yeah. - That's just, yeah. So you're going to lose weight very quickly and this was like 40 plus days of fasting that hazard was prescribing to her patients, right?

And so I think both of the Williamson sisters made it to 50 days before they were transferred to wilderness heights. They didn't walk, they were on stretchers so tell they got to wilderness heights

from their apartments downtown Seattle. - Yeah, and from what I can tell, they weren't screaming on the way, like, get me help. Like, it feels like they were either all in still on this or just so out of it at this point,

they didn't know any better, you know? - Yes, or they were asking for help, but they were asking for it like Stevie from Malcolm in the middle where they were like, get help, this is pretty good Stevie, thanks.

Did you watch the reboot of that? - No. - Reboot, I can't, give me one reboot that was as good as the original or even close. - Yeah, I can't bring any reboots to mine at all,

so I don't know, but you're pretty much right. Like, even the great kids in the hall, like, it was just okay. - Right. - I don't wanna watch the Malcolm in the middle one now.

- Oh, you haven't seen it either? - No, but I heard it was pretty good, actually. - All right. - This is Frankie Munis, has his voice changed?

What was his name, Stevie?

- Stevie, yeah. - Yeah, I couldn't remember, I just remember Cranston, was so great. - Yeah, and his daughter's great too. We've said it before, we'll say it again.

On the pit, Dr. Mel is Brian Cranston's daughter, and she does a great job.

“- Yeah, I think we said that live on stage,”

and I don't think the listening public knows that you are now on the pit. - Yeah, but apparently it just stopped. Like, they just stopped putting out episodes, but that last episode does not end in any way

that anyone would ever end a season of TV. - Oh, you think? - Yeah. - Like, Noah Wiley didn't leave yet. I don't even think his buddy fully agreed

to getting the treatment he's supposed to get. - What's going on with Alice Shimi? Like, the last thing we saw, she just kind of had a meltdown in her car, there's just all the stuff's up in the air.

- Oh, I think that was the purpose, I think it just was cliffhanger after cliffhanger. - Okay, yes, I can get cliffhangers, but it's almost like it just petered out rather than cut it like they just cut.

All right, disagree. - All right. - Well, I was surprised that that was how they ended it. - I hope that we just spoiled some stuff by the way. - Oh, yeah, we should probably--

- Well, we didn't say any huge. - No. - Like Wiley didn't leave, big deal. - Okay, all right. - Does he ever leave?

- I don't know, that's what I--

“- I don't know, I just think he didn't get a Wiley.”

Like, he never leased, he comes over,

he overstays as well, everyone's like, once he's kind of going to get on the smoke and he's going to drive out of here. - It's true. - All right, I feel like we're really off the rails now,

we should take a break and come back, yes? - Yeah. - All right, we'll be right back. [MUSIC PLAYING] - Hey, it's us, the Jonas brothers,

and guess what? We have some big news. - What's the news, the news? - We created our own podcast. - Oh, hey, Jonas.

- We invented a podcast. - Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. - First people to do podcast. - Pretty.

- Yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts.

- Starting is trend. - But this one's extra special. - So how do we--

“how do we actually come up with a name, hey, Jonas, guys?”

- I honestly don't remember. - I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And, oh, we were thinking, originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers.

- Well, this is how you guys remember it going down. - Yes, I have a very different memory of this. - We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas, and then I broke down on my little note pad.

Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title. - The podcast. - But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to hey, Jonas, on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen, we don't care where you hear it. - Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guide, not quite on humor, me, with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Oden, Kirk, to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and Headwriters, Streeter Side L, helped an occupile band with their Between Songs Banner. - Where does your group perform? - We do some retirement homes.

- Those people are starving for banter. - Listen to humor, me, with Robert Smigel and friends, on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. - There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place

to live. This is David Eagleman with the inner Cosmos podcast, and for mental health awareness month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles.

I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Joel about anxiety. - I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting, I was having panic attacks,

I was a chorephobic. - And making it through hardship. - To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. - We'll talk with John Nelson

about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy, but because I'm disease-free. - And we'll talk with leading experts

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and what we can do about it. Listen to the inner Cosmos on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - All right, where we left you,

no whiley had not left yet the pit. No, I'm sorry.

It was about 50 days into their treatment. They were obviously in really, really bad shape, having traveled by stretcher to a lollawoods. And Claire died 17 days after they got to the compound there in the forest.

And this is like very triggering and super upsetting. So I'm assuming the warning here, but she weighed less than 50 pounds when she passed. And Hazard's own autopsy, once again, determined she died of a liver disease

that came from a childhood medical treatment that caused her organs to shrink. And when her, the governor showed up, Margaret Conway,

you know, finally arrived, she told her that.

And she was like, I basically raised these kids and she didn't have any childhood medical treatment that caused her organs to shrink. - Yeah, and we should just say that Margaret Conway, her governor's who we talked about earlier,

she got a cable from one of them. I can't remember if it was door or Claire, probably Dora, I think it was Doria. - It just basically saying like please come, here's the ship you wanna take, here's where we are,

just get here, and Margaret Conway just dropped everything. And within a month, she had traveled from Australia to Seattle. That's how long it took. - Yeah, but I mean, she was welcomed.

I mean, Samuel met her in Seattle and said, all right, let's get on the train.

We're gonna show you this operation.

Like it's pretty sad what's happening, but like we have a top-notch practice here. And they brought her to the mortuary to see Claire, and she was like, that's not Claire. Whoever this body is, and I get the impression

that it wasn't like she's so amaciated,

“I didn't recognize her, like I think they tried”

to pull the fast one on her. - Yeah, there was rumors, I guess, that the local mortuary was in Kahuts with the hazards and that they would switch out bodies that weren't amaciated who had nothing to do

with wilderness heights, the amaciated bodies of their victims, so that family wouldn't be like, I think you starved my mom to death, right. So Margaret Kahme was not in any way shape to perform put off by Samuel Hazard's charm

or Linda Hazard's authority, like she realized

that they had killed Claire. One of the dead giveaways was that Linda Hazard was wearing one of Claire's robes in her favorite hat when she received Margaret Kahneway at the wilderness heights at their cottage,

and that I think immediately rubbed Margaret Kahneway the wrong way, and she was like, I give me Dora, I'm taking Dora home in Linda and Samuel said, not so fast. - Yeah, well, Dora was in the same shape,

she weighed about 50 pounds, was barely alive at this point. And so, yeah, she asked for it and the Hazard's are like, actually, where the executor of her estate, she is under our legal guardianship forever, and my husband Samuel has power of attorney

over all of the her and the family's financial matters. And not only that, you've got a medical bill, you need to pay, you owe us two grand. - It's about 70K today. - Yeah.

- Margaret Kahneway is like, well, I don't have 70 grand. I have no idea how to overturn a legal guardianship, but it just so happened that Claire and Dora's uncle, John Herbert, was just up in Portland, not very far away, even back in 1911, 1910.

- Down in Portland. - Yeah, I don't wanna, oh, yeah, it's gotta be right. - No, 100% it is, okay. I have which show we did backwards.

“Usually you see Adel first of them Portland, right?”

- Yeah, okay. So anyway, John Herbert was down in Portland and Margaret Kahneway got on touch of them and was like, I need your help. Like these Claire's been killed and Dora was in big trouble.

She's about to die and these two hooksters have like all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo going on. And John Herbert got involved, he's like, I'm a man and this is the Edwardian era. So everybody listen to me and that's when things started moving.

- Yeah, for sure. Samuel has her did produce a document. It was a type written statement that he said, Claire dictated this to us on her deathbed, but she didn't sign it 'cause she was too weak to sign it

because of the whole liver issue. - True. - It said to my relatives and friends, I'm writing the statement to say that Dora and I entered on this course of treatment, only after thorough investigation

that we have continued it voluntarily

“and that if death occurs, I believe that it is inevitable”

that it would have come in any circumstances, which is like, I mean, it sounds like a child wrote that to get out of being in trouble, you know? - Right, exactly, so, and I mean, just that last line about if she dies, it was inevitable anyway,

just so smacks of Linda Hazard's philosophy

this is very clearly fake.

“So John Herbert gets involved thanks to Margaret Conway.”

They find, get this, the vice counsel of the British embassy in Tacoma.

Let all that sink in for a second.

- Yeah. - They get them involved and they get the guardianship overturned, Herbert gets the $2,000 on paid bill and negotiated down to $1,000 and essentially pays a ransom for Dora to be released.

- Yeah. - And in the meantime, once he has Dora back, he starts looking into some of these other patients and finds like, Dora and Claire were far from the only victims who essentially had been exploited financially

while they were out of their minds from starvation. - Yeah, for sure, so it's just like the movie scene is starting to sort of add up in his head. And he brings this evidence into the authorities there in the county and they investigate, obviously.

And Linda Hazard was arrested for murder

“for, I think, murder in the first degree”

of Claire Williamson and for obvious financial fraud. And it was a, you know, you said earlier the sensational, it was a big deal.

International press, you know, first they had to find out

where the O'Lala Woods was. And then they came there and started covering this case. And she was known as the starvation doctor. I think they started calling her place starvation heights instead of, what was it, a wilderness height?

- Yeah, wilderness height. - Quite a burn. - Yeah, it's pretty good, man. And they, you know, there's a lot of speculation flying around like, you know, that she had this holdover people

there was rumors that she may have been hypnotizing them to keep them under her hold. But like you mentioned earlier, there still are and certainly back then had people either former patients or wealthy benefactors or other natural paths

that were like, hey, you know, she's a woman practicing outside the box of medicine. And that's why she's being prosecuted. - Yes, we should say that it actually took a lot of leaning on the Kitsup County Prosecutor

where wilderness heights was located to actually prosecute this crime. Because again, she had a lot of local support and there were a lot of people who were like, she's being persecuted by these brits

who are like total out of towners and they're being supported by vocal people from the American Medical Association who want only doctors to practice their way.

And basically, this woman's being, yeah, persecuted

as a witch, essentially. So she did have a lot of supporters, but she had a lot of detractors too. It seems like on balance, at least as far as the press is concerned, she was generally viewed as a murderer and a grifter, I guess.

A grifting murderer, terrible combination.

“- Yeah, I think the first thing she said was,”

the first guy that came at me was an ambassador stationed in Tacoma, Tacoma, everyone. Does that sound remotely believable? - Right, it does sound kind of made out. - So January 15th, 1912, the trial starts,

they lay out their evidence basically, which was all pretty obvious like they're she's trying to fleece these people of money when they have no control over their own senses. And I think I had about 100 people testify

for the prosecution, there were lots of doctors, being paraded up there as expert witnesses. And Dora even took the stand and talked about the scene basically near the end where she was bedside and Claire is trying to whisper

Stevie style, something to Dora, like her sister, as she's passing essentially. And every time she tried to speak, Ms. Hazard is, or Mrs. Hazard is how she called them. She kept talking on a couldn't hear,

like she would lean in and she'd say Dora, and she would interrupt and say, "How did you spell that name again?" And like she would not let her, I mean, this is one of the most upsetting parts,

like she wouldn't even let her sister, perhaps even say goodbye, who knows what she was trying to say. - Yeah, and apparently also, I guess Dr. Hazard cut in and was like, "I'm gonna give Claire one of my famous messages

"and press down so hard that Claire lost consciousness." And shortly after that, Dora was told that Claire had died. And so yeah, those probably would have been her last words to her that Linda Hazard basically interrupted on purpose. - Yeah, I think she actually died.

Dora found out she died the next morning, so she didn't get that chance later either. The defensive course comes in and said that, you know, it wasn't the treatment, she didn't die of starvation.

you know, it's not possible to starve someone to death. And, you know, trots out her book in the middle of court and says, "Here, read this." And this is the quote from the book, "Death in the fast,

"never results from deprivation of food,

"but is the inevitable consequence of vitality "sapped to the last degree by organic imperfection." - I mean, that's quackery, like 19th century quackery, if you've either heard it, you know? - For sure, but I mean, it is technically true,

like you die from your organs failing, but your organs get their vitality from the food that you're not getting. So it's kind of like potato potato, essentially, yes. - It is very, it's a pretty good work around, I guess.

But she stood by that. She was like, "No, you can't die from starvation." That's why she said Claire died from liver disease.

“That's why her first patient gurtured young,”

first patient to die. She died from paralysis. It's whatever was wrong with you ahead of time. That's what killed you, not starvation. I don't know if Lynn has or truly believed that.

There's actually some evidence at the very end that we'll see, but that's just so dumb that and I have the impression that Lynn has or was not a dumb person at all. - I just can't believe that she believed that. - I feel like, given the financial piece,

I feel like she knew what she was doing. - Okay, that's just my, you know, take on it. - Right. So again, there was some supporters who were like, "Hey, you know, she's being persecuted

"and the jury said, "You know what? "We're gonna split the middle here. "We're going to find her guilty "on a charge of manslaughter, not murder." So everybody can be unhappy.

- Yeah, basically she was sentenced to two to 20 hard labor

at Walla Walla, penitentiary. - Yeah. - And that wasn't it though, because she appealed the case and appealed it all the way up to the United States or was it the States Supreme Court?

- No, the US Supreme Court from what I am saying. - US Supreme Court took about 18 months to get there. And, you know, she had supporters sending and letters the whole time, saying to release her, the state of Washington did revoke her licensed

to practice medicine, but she did continue to practice to more deaths happen after Claire Williamson. And then she finally goes to prison eventually at Walla Walla. - Yeah, so while she's appealing and is out and about on bail, two more people die, she kills two more people.

That's just crazy.

She finally gets to Walla Walla, like you said.

And that two to 20 years is what's known

“as an indeterminate sentence, like you have to serve”

at least a minimum, but you're not gonna serve beyond 20, right? So she was in there for, I think, less than two years before she was paroled. She very famously knitted ponchos for the other inmates. And when she did get out, I think within six months,

she had been pardoned by the governor of Washington. - Yeah, and, you know, it's kind of hard to get super accurate and information for this old-time stuff, but I did see in the Washington Archives, there was a stipulation that she had to leave the country,

if they were gonna let her out. So regardless of whether or not that's true, she did leave the country. We'll get to that in a second. Dora also left the country.

She went back to England and settled down and glousster. And, you know, lived a, sounds like a pretty great full life after that. She got married in 1914 to Reverend Windham Allen, Chaplin, and lived to be 71 years old, died in 1945,

so she fully recovered from her quote-unquote treatment. - Right. - And Linda Hazard went to New Zealand to hawkerwares. - Yeah, and was very well received there. During the trial, one of her focal supporters

was the Sydney Morning Herald, I think, or at least some colonists in there. And she made a ton of money again when she showed up in New Zealand, like people just flocked to her for her treatment.

“And I think she long said, like, hey, yeah,”

15 people died on in my care from the fasting, but, you know, I've had hundreds of other patients, so is that really that bad? And people are like, yeah, it is kind of bad, but also, you know, most doctors who lose patients

don't also fleece them of their estate. Like, that's really what took it. Like, murder is bad, murder for profit is really bad. - Yeah, I agree, we're gonna rank murder. - Sure, let's just face it, murder for profit is really bad.

- I agree, I think the piece that you were talking about,

that maybe she did believe,

fully believe this stuff, is that she herself died from her own treatment, June 24th, 1938, self-administering of fasting cure. So, you know, I don't think it was pure Hokem in her mind.

“I think she probably did believe it to a certain degree,”

but I think she took it to extremes to fleece people. - Yeah, sure. - Yeah, let's lend a hazard. - Yeah, there's a book that a lot has came from, from 1997, it's called Starvation Heights,

by a local named Greg Olson. So shout out to Greg Olson in that book. If you can't find it, at a sec or a third G, I guess to the end of Greg Olson's name and it should come up.

- That was G-R-E-G-G. - Yeah, probably won't come up on a search that's just G-R-E-G Olson in Starvation Heights, 1997. But if you had that extra G, it will definitely come up. - Yeah, and if you just Google Greg Olson,

you'll probably come up with the Atlanta Braves Ketcher from the 19th, 19th or 19th of the time. - Yeah, here's the Ketcher, huh? - Yeah, okay. - You got anything else about Greg Olson,

whether you're talking about the author of the Ketcher? - I know he was not a belly scratcher. - You a belly itcher?

“- I think scratcher, a pitcher not a belly itcher,”

a Ketcher or not a belly scratcher.

- Oh, okay, I've never heard that second part.

He's a blue line, buddy. - Well, since we started talking about Braves Pictures in childhood brimed, I think it's time for this in our meal. (bell ringing) - That's right, this is from Daniel.

Hey guys, love the episode of Maple Surup and all your episodes. I think you wanna let you know something similar in Australia. There's a tree called the Side Agum

or the Eucalyptus Gunny. - Nice. - And it produces a similar sweet sap guys. I couldn't find any evidence of it being eaten as is, but the local Paoloa people of Tasmania

would let it naturally ferment to turn it into a cider, like drink, called Wioena. Of course, the tree is now incredibly rare. Most of it can find a one-value in Tasmania due to all the usual good things,

since sarcasm there. As a white Australian, I would love for you to do an episode on Bush Tucker. So much knowledge was lost due to colonization

in genocide, but there's still so much amazing

information out there, and that is from Daniel. - Nice. - Thank you. Have not heard of cider gum tree? - No, or Bush Tucker.

- No, so those are really great ideas, and thanks a lot for that. We cannot wait till we get back to Australia so we can try that cider. - Bush Tucker is a food apparently.

“- Oh, I think Bush Tucker is like knowledge.”

That was the impression I have. - Why does look it up, and it's called, it's a food. - So, you know. - But thanks for that. - You just gave me the rope, didn't you?

- Well, I tried to tell you those food. - I hadn't realized that you looked anything up. I thought we'd just discussed before we looked things up. - Oh, sorry. - Click any click type type, here you go.

Now I know, if you wanna be like Daniel and send us a great email, we would love that. You can send it off to [email protected]. (upbeat music) - Stuff you should know is a production

by heart radio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the I Heart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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- Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on humor me with Robert's Michael and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Oden Creek to David Letterman help make you funny this week, my guess. SNL's Mikey Day and Headwriters, Streeter Side L.

Help an Occupel aband with their between songs banter. - Where does your group perform? - We do some retirement homes. - Those people are starving for banter. - Listen to humor me with Robert's Michael and friends

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.

I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring. - The 14th season of Family Secrets. - He kind of showed me out of the way and said move,

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“- Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets,”

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