What's the deal with Swiss neutrality?

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- Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I-Heart Radio. - Hey and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff You Should Know, everybody.

- That's right. - And we're talking about one of the two things with some of this number, what? - It's not a cheese. - Okay, then chocolate?

- Oh, that's true, three things. - Okay, kuku clocks? - Four things. - Beautiful mountains. - Five things, beautiful people.

- Roastie, six things, seven things. All right, let's just cut to the chase. And then there's a lot to switch on when everybody, and this is just one of myriad things we could talk about. And that is Swiss neutrality,

and I think this came to mind because of the recent talks between the United States and Iran, and a new Switzerland was had a role to play there, and I'm like, what the heck is up with that country? - Did you say that out loud?

“- I think I did, and Ruby was like, what country did?”

- It's a good idea, Chuck, I had no idea about this, and I'm not sure if I ever would have thought of doing one on this, but it's actually pretty interesting. - Yeah, and thanks to Libya, but I now understand it. - Yeah, and we should say that right before we started

according to Jerry announced that she is the Switzerland of stuff you should know. - Jerry likes to think she is. - Well, then who would be the Switzerland? - We have no Switzerland.

- Okay, who are you? - I don't know. - I'm a mix of Turkmenistan and Denmark. - Okay, all right, great, okay. - And that's what we're gonna leave this

because let's get back to talking about Switzerland, which is like you said known for many things. And this neutrality thing, I had no idea, but it is in stark contrast to how Switzerland used to be during the Middle Ages, or medieval times,

if you're one of those people who goes to medieval times. - Yeah, and we should point out to Switzerland is not the only neutral country. I think Libya found 20 to 25

basically neutral countries around the world,

but Switzerland, it's a real like, when you think of neutral countries,

“I think most people would say Switzerland”

because they've taken, not just neutrality's a stance, but like a really active neutrality, and like, hey, come and settle your worrying disputes, here in our friendly confines, or your financial disputes in our friendly confines.

- Yeah, as a matter of fact, Switzerland is the only country that comes to mind when I think of neutrality. I had honestly no idea that other countries were officially neutral.

- Yeah, like Ireland is, did you know that? - No, but I believe it. - Okay, well, at any rate, yes, they are the standard, the gold standard, the Nazi gold standard of neutral countries.

- What a tease. - So, like I said, the whole thing kind of,

- Yeah, and then 1851, I think,

when they formally became a country, but-- - Right. - But yeah, but you promised talk to the middle ages, and it is interesting that we can go back to the 13th century to kind of see the beginnings of this.

- Yeah, apparently this is where William Tell comes from, too. Did you know that? - Mm, no. - I know, shamefully little about William Tell,

“I was reading a, I think it's Swissimpho.ch,”

they're like the English-speaking outlet for Switzerland. And this article, this guy was writing, he's like, we all know the story of William Tell, blah, blah, blah, and I was like, actually, I don't know anything that you just mentioned.

- Yeah, agreed, he has a heck of an overture. That's all I know. - Yeah, apparently, so here in the United States, everybody, we're taught that William Tell, like, shot the apple off of his kid's head

to show off like his skills. Apparently, he was forced to do that by some evil Austrian, like overlords, who had taken over Switzerland. And William Tell is actually a resistance fighter

who helps Switzerland overthrow those Austrian overlords. Fantastic. But he comes out of this time, right? So Switzerland, like you said until the 1850s or 60s, was a confederation, it's still known

as the Swiss confederation of cantons, which would be like states, provinces, maybe counties, but their independent little municipalities that all together forms Switzerland or the Swiss confederation.

And that's where the whole thing starts. Back in 1291, there was an alliance between three of these cantons. Now, there's like 25. Uri Schwitz, Schweitz, maybe, in Uterwalden, Walden.

Walden, yeah. And they formed the Valdstadt alliance. Yeah, Stet. Stet?

“Valdstadt, a alliance, I would say, I think.”

I don't know if the East pronounce used to speak German. Well, I know that because you a certain thrill, but I think that Muma would make it a Stet, Stet. Say it again. Say the whole thing.

The Valdstadt alliance? Very nice.

These were basically free peasants at the time.

And they, partially the reason this all goes down is because of their location and the Alps, kind of isolated from a lot of Europe. And so they were isolated, these free peasants from a lot of the feudal hierarchies all over Europe.

And they were like in a good geographic position because they were there in those mountain passes with Italy to the south and German speaking peoples to the north. And so they were there as like, hey, we're kind of here

in the middle. So that kind of started the whole thing of like, hey, everyone wants to get along with them because they needed them. Yeah, they've, from time to time served

“is a very useful buffer, which has helped other outside”

nations support their bid for neutrality, right? And just to be left alone. At the same time, that isolation, like you said, from time to time, some of their neighbors would break it and try to basically take over Switzerland.

And it would to varying successes from time to time, like I said. But the isolation and the fact that they were mostly independent made Switzerland are still to the state that gave them this fiercely independent streak

as a nation, that they see themselves as like, it's a different thing. There's separate thing. They're nothing like a typical nation whatsoever. They're their own thing.

And one of the big things you can almost call it a brand is their neutrality. That's right. And when they formed that Balched Ed Alliance,

it wasn't the biggest deal because that had always

kind of been the deal with them. So it was really just renewing these ties that had already been around for a long time. But everyone later on would say, oh, actually, that's kind of when Switzerland started coming together

as what would later be a country. Yeah. And then more cancels came aboard the Alliance got a little bigger and started getting referred to as the old Swiss confederation,

not the new and that we have now. And that's when they started becoming like a real piece of the military puzzle that was going on all around them. I'm very certain when back in the 13th century, they were confused when people called it the old Swiss confederation,

because it was present to them. They're like, what are you talking about? So it was around this time that the Swiss actually became militarily mighty. The Swiss actually were known for their warlike tendencies

and their excellent fighting skills. So much so that as they kind of grew and started to take part in European wars during the medieval era and that very, very early modern era,

as the new Romans.

This conquering group of incredibly well-trained fighters

that were willing to take on the world essentially. That was the image of Switzerland. It's like that total opposite of how we view Switzerland. Yeah, yeah, totally. And they had some pretty decent military upsets leading up

to the beginning of the 16th century. And that's when they started to kind of move away from that idea because there were some really big countries and countries getting together in like forming larger alliances around them.

And they were, you know, they were still, even though they had some military might, they realized they were probably smallest compared to other places that were popping up around them. Sure.

Notably the Holy Roman Empire, of course, France, Spain, and Italy kind of all over the place over there trying to get at least control in the 16th century of the Duchy of Milan.

And that's when the Swiss came out,

and they were like, hey, the different cantons

“had different ideas on who they should support, right?”

Which would kind of become a recurring theme of like, who they should have allegiance to and not necessarily agreeing, so maybe remaining neutral is the best path of least resistance, I guess. But in this case at the time, they started out backing France

then switched to the Italians. And then at the Battle of Marignano in 1515, the French kind of kicked their butts, the French and Venetians. And they were like, all right,

we lost 10,000 infantry people. So maybe we need to really rethink putting our eggs and baskets of other countries. Yeah, 10,000 was half of the entire Swiss military force was killed at this one battle.

Yeah. It was a really big deal, so much so that they were like,

yeah, this whole war-like thing

is not really working out all of a sudden. Let's explore the idea of being neutral. And it wasn't just that, but from everything I've seen, that battle was a decisive turning point for the mentality among the Swiss

about taking part in European wars. But there were other things that kind of contributed to that decision. One was the Protestant Reformation because different cantons in different parts of the country

“supported or were Protestant or were Catholic, right?”

Yeah. And that's a very sticky situation when you're trying to keep these cantons part of a confederation, right? There's no central government that's telling the can'ts.

No, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. There are confederation essentially. So they're all still quite independent, but they're all still also Swiss.

So that in and of itself meant like, how can you participate in European wars when half of your can'tons want to go to war with one and none, you know, in the wars out in the rest of Europe

are about between Protestants and Catholics. Like you just can't do that. So the Swiss said, you know what? Let's just stay neutral. And this is a good example of how being neutral

has literally kept the country together many times over the years. Like where there are differences of opinion

“are too great right now among the canons.”

So we're just going to not have an opinion officially as a country. Yeah, for sure. Another thing that helped was they got a pretty sweet, financial deal out of the end of the conflict

with France in 1516 that peace treaty gave them access to French markets. They had it, that I think internally, they were like, I'm not sure if they noticed, but we can do business with France now

and we could already do business with other people. So let's just keep flying under the radar here financially speaking because we've got the best of both worlds. So they had no like financial incentive to bus stop, almost said bus that move,

but that wouldn't be the right term. I don't think. Bus to move on French markets? Yeah, sure. OK, yeah.

So yes, this is where their business image also started to. Yeah. This is where the three peace suit was invented in the peace treaty between France and Europe in 1516. In the sea, here's a great example.

I have no idea whether to believe you're not at this point in my life. I don't know whether to believe me or not, even. It's or at least we're aligned. So this is, I don't know if you're picking up on this check.

This is a time of frequent wars across Europe. And that's the problem. When you put authoritarian, despots and charged with limitless riches, they elites want to compete among themselves

because they want to have the biggest casseler. I want to have the most people at my command. I want to torture the most people, right? And they start competing with each other. And they send their own people off to war

with what another. It's a great lesson today. It was something to learn from. And it happened a lot during this era. Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of threats

The 30 years war was a big one in 1618. Because again, they were divided

“sympathies, I guess, within those cantons”

because what you talked about, but religion for the most part. And if you got involved in that war as Switzerland, that would have kind of torn apart this confederation that they had worked so hard to keep together. And so, again, they were like, hey,

let's, we got to keep a good thing going here. Let's remain neutral. And in 1646, the Swedes were sort of threatening them. And so they were like, well, we need to at least have an army

though for national defense, like we can be neutral, but we can't be, we can't be roofs. Sure. So each Canton had like quotas for troops that they had to supply. And that's when they were kind of formed that army

of for defense purposes, which still exists today. So yeah, they created an army in 1646. And then two years later, a really big thing happened. It's just enormous. I'm really impressed.

“There's this guy named Yohan Rudolf Vetscht-Dine.”

Yeah? Sounds great. He was the mayor of Basel, right? And the 30 years war came to an end in 1648 through the piece of Westphalia.

And Vetscht-Dine showed up to the piece of Westphalia treaty negotiations. He said, I'm glad you guys are doing this. This is fantastic. Keep up the good work.

Also, I want to talk to everybody about something. Even though I'm just the mayor of Basel, I want to make sure that Switzerland is represented here. Because we're just neutral. And we think that we should no longer be under the thumb

of the Holy Roman Empire. We think that we should have recognition as an independent nation and also we want to be neutral, too. And he got it passed through. Like he gained recognition from these major powers of Europe

that Switzerland was now at its own country. Holy Roman Empire, you just lost Switzerland. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how he pulled that off, actually, at the time, you know? With the lottery.

Chocolate, I'll tell you that. Yeah, it's Kukuklox. So about 100 years after that, there was another threat to their neutrality.

This was 1790s, late 1790s, when the French Revolutionary

Republic and Russia were going at it. And they kind of eat that battle into Switzerland, some, and I think after that victory, that was like 1798 close to 1800, the French government created the Helvetic Republic of Cisternation.

And that covered a lot of Switzerland. Yeah, they basically said, oh, we just happened to create this country that just is within the borders of Switzerland. Sorry, Switzerland.

Yeah, I think some overlap there, guys. Yeah, they basically turned it into a territory. And this is pretty much part of the course for Napoleon. He really kind of sealed the deal when he sent an army to occupy Switzerland.

I guess to protect his new made-up country of Helvetic. I want to say, Helvetic is so bad. But he essentially pondered Switzerland for the next decade in resources and humans. And he actually, when he invaded Russia in 1812,

he brought some Swiss troops with them. And they did not do very well there. Yeah, they sent 9,000 troops in 700, only 700 came home. Yeah.

You know, the tide finally turned against Napoleon.

And so they were like, all right, thank God. We got rid of this guy. Yeah.

“And so after the Battle of Leipzig and I believe 1813,”

they were like, all right, we're back to being neutral again. We do have our military force, but we're not going to fight anymore. And in fact, in December of 1813, when the Austrian Imperial Army was like, all right, we want to march through your country

to go to France, they're like, fine, go right ahead. We'll just let you do that. Yeah, they just turned their backs and whistled. So one other thing happened, there was another guy, and Charles picked that De Rochmont.

And also in 1813 during the peace treaty that ended well Napoleon's reign, I guess, essentially. He showed up, and he said, also, we want to make sure that we're still getting recognized. We're now the Swiss Confederation.

And everyone said, do you mean the old Swiss Confederation? And De Rochmont said, no, no, this is brand new. It's a new Swiss Confederation. You guys are going to love it.

And he was first just the mayor of Geneva,

which was actually a city state independent city state, part of a Canton now. And I guess he did such a good job that he ended up representing Switzerland as a whole. And this is where their perpetual neutrality

Yeah, that's right. And that was it. I mean, people generally look back to 1815 as like that's when everything really officially kind of started when they became a unified federal state in 1848

was when the final stamp was stamped. So now we reach the point where modern Switzerland is born, and it is officially neutral. It's a sovereign nation, but it's still a confederation. Don't forget that.

That's right. And that is where we're going to take a break. And we'll be right back with more Swiss neutrality right for this. [MUSIC PLAYING]

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- So, Chuck, we're in Switzerland now. It's a nice established country, and part of the, it is very lovely. Part of what you said it needs and should have is a military for, for defense,

and still today it has a military. In fact, I believe this month, the military assembled like 4,000 troops

along the border to basically just keep any of the,

near-do wells at the G7 summit, spilling over, 'cause the G7 summit's in France right now. That's right. But there, I guess military presence dates back, I mean, much further, obviously,

but the modern version of it is from like the 19th century, I think. - Yeah, and, you know, they have to abide by certain rules that have happened since then, like the Hague Convention of 1907,

if you're a neutral country,

Now that we've learned that,

they can't fight in a war.

“They can't support any other country's warring parties,”

they can't send them weapons, like most other countries do, they can't send money to help out in a war. They can't say, "Hey, we'll host a base here." Or, "You're foreign troops can stay here for a little while."

So, you know, they have to remain truly neutral under the Hague Convention, which they were, I'm sure they were quite delighted to make it official. But they, again, they've maintained that army

because they have to have their own defense. And also, we should point out that the Swiss army knife, it kind of came around in the 19th century, the 1880s. It's like a literal, you know, if you didn't think the Swiss had an army,

they had a knife named after them. - Yeah, of course they had an army. - For sure. - And it really is the Swiss army knife. They just call it the army knife,

I'm guessing in Switzerland, but every little army knife. - Swiss army knife. - Yeah, like the cake roll. - God, I forgot about the cake roll, that's another thing. - Yeah, well, I don't know that they know

that little Debbie is putting their name on its cake rolls.

“- 'Cause I think they would have a problem with that.”

- Yeah. - Yeah, look it up, Switzerland, you're not gonna be happy. So World War I was a threat, obviously, all of Europe was fighting, but I don't believe Switzerland

was drawn into it much. World War II was a much greater threat. They had to work much harder to stay neutral and to keep the other countries out. And when Germany occupied France,

all of the sudden Switzerland was surrounded by the Axis, and it was a very nervous time, and they managed to amass an army of, I think 400,000 troops in the Alps, and they let everybody know, or staying neutral,

but if you come here, we're going to beat you badly. And it generally worked. So that they were accidentally bombed several times that other powers basically said, "Oh, we didn't mean to bomb you, sorry,

"but we killed a bunch of your people." But for the most part, it worked in that,

they were never invaded by anyone.

- Yeah, for sure, just because your neutral doesn't mean that you're not taking part in anything to do with the war. So as you'll see, we'll talk about a little later, they have a long tradition of receiving refugees, like war refugees, but kind of shamefully,

like the US and a lot of other places, during the aftermath, or during World War II, they prevented a lot of Jewish people from the Holocaust, from finding refuge there. So that's one of the sort of dark spots.

- Sure. And then still today, if you are a man between ages 18 and 34, you have to enlist in the military, or if you're a conscientious objecter, and say, "I'm not carrying a gun around,

"you can also, there's civilian services you can enlist in." And then if you're a woman, you can also do it, but it's voluntary, you're not required to.

“And so I think today, they have 150,000 active”

and reserved troops, and just like back in the day, each can't has to fulfill a quota, and they have their own civilian defense forces. - That's right, which is, you know, would be foolish not to, at this point, in the World History.

- First, sure. - So, yeah, there's still a military, despite the fact that they're neutral. I feel like we've managed to drive that point home. - That's the stuff you should know, I.

So, this whole idea that we mentioned kind of early on as Switzerland taking an active role in neutrality, and not just being like, "Hey, just leave us alone." - Sure. - We will host your dealings with one another,

and we become a center of arbitration for the world, basically.

That started out basically in like the mid-19th century.

The Geneva and Basel Chambers of Commerce said, "Hey, let's get a system together." And let's make this, like, let's get serious about this and put some structure around what we wanna do, and they got their first stab at that, I guess, in 1872,

when, around the Civil War, when negotiators from the United States and Great Britain, went to Geneva and worked out, we were called the Alabama Claims, which were about losses caused by these British built

Confederate ships, one of which was the Alabama. During the Civil War, Britain ended up having to pay damages there, and that started the whole system of like San, "Hey, Geneva is pretty nice, you guys." We're pretty chill, and why don't you just come here

to settle your disputes in our courtroom, the People's Court? - Right, and then the Bongo job started. - I did not see Alabama coming up in an episode

- I did not either.

So since then, I'd like you said they'd literally

wrote the rules on arbitration. And since then, like, they have had some pretty high profile arbitration meetings so much so that they eventually worked, what are called the good offices,

which are everything from a meeting place to mediation services for arbitration. It's worked into the Swiss Federal Constitution. So they, like, that's a huge part of Switzerland maintaining its neutrality as it's saying.

Like, come, take advantage of our neutral territory. Like, this is a place where you can meet and work out your differences. Let's all just work out our differences guy. And I saw Chuck one other thing that they do,

which is really surprising, they represent the interests of countries who are not speaking to each other.

“So I think that they represent Iran in Canada.”

So let's take Iran's, like, we're not even talking to you, Canada anymore. We're gonna get Switzerland to meet with you. We're not even going to be in the same room with you. They do that for several different countries.

- Yeah, I mean, it's, they provide a service. I wonder what kind of, like, do they charge a fee for this? - Oh, I'm sure that there's fees involved. - Sure, even if it's just, like, the hotels in Geneva very overpriced.

- Dude, I'll bet you they're, like, like, coffee service at these meetings

and companies are amazing.

- Yeah, I mean, because they gotta get something out of it besides neutrality. - Sure, so I, you know, I knew, like, this Swiss were known for being very business, like, I did not realize the extent that that is true.

I believe that the Swiss mentality is generally, like, yes, it's business. We conduct our business appropriately, fairly. Like, we are really good at it. We have good contracts, like, we are really business-like.

And that that is, like, yes, that they're probably getting something for all of the services that they're providing because that's business. - Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I bet you're absolutely right.

- But they're also known for their real push toward humanitarian aid all around the world, especially during times of conflict. - Yeah. - Like, no less than the bread cross.

Still based in Geneva. And if you look at their symbol, it's the inverse of the Swiss flag, and that's no accident, but that all started out because of a Geneva businessman named Henry De Nantes.

- San Henry? - Yeah, for real. - In 1859, he was in Solferino, a town in the north of Italy. He was there for work, and he saw the aftermath of a battle

between French and Austria, and saw, like, 40,000 dead and wounded soldiers all about him. And it really, really moved him and put a dent in a psyche,

“I think, because he got, like, personally involved,”

started helping out locals, started providing medical assistance, stressing wounds, like, you know, literally himself doing this. And spoke to French officials, was like, hey, you got a bunch of Austrian surgeons who were POWs, like, let them out and let them help their own people

and let them help your people. And it moved him to the point where he kind of dedicated his life to it. He wrote a book called a Memory of Solferino, and talked about these experiences in the creation

of these committees that would train volunteers, and that's the stuff that would become

the first national red cross society.

- Yeah. - If you're like, okay, that's pretty impressive. We'll prepare for this one too. You've heard of the Geneva convention of the treatment of prisoners of war.

- Oh, yeah. - Well, that was his work. He started arguing and lobbying for some sort of international agreements on how to treat the sick and the wounded in the prisoners of war,

and that became the first Geneva convention in 1864. - Pretty great. And the YMCA that you know in love, he didn't create the YMCA, but do not really made it a global movement

in the world alliance of the YMCA is also still in Geneva. - So two things, when I hear YMCA obviously, think village people, but I also think of this great moment from a Simpson's episode

where Lionel Hut is staying there at the YMCA. And he's asleep, sitting down with his back up against the wall, his knees pulled up to his chest and his elbows on his knees and his head down so you can imagine.

“And I think Barton Lisa walk up and wake him up.”

And he suddenly comes awake and he brandishes at night and he says, "Don't touch my stuff." He was staying at the YMCA. That was his experience there. - That's pretty good.

I love it. Oh man, Lionel Hut's was the best.

So if you're like, okay, still, do nights impressive,

“but he was probably also just some crazy billionaire”

who just wanted to make a good name for himself wrong. As a matter of fact, all of this humanitarian work that he focused on led to him becoming bankrupt. He wasn't paying enough attention to his business. And so he lost his business, became bankrupt,

and essentially unknown for a couple of decades. Until 1895, there was a journalist who was like, "Oh my God, this guy, I know this guy and he's living like obscurely in poverty. I need to let everybody know about him."

And he was one of the co-recipients

of the first Nobel Peace Prize in 1921.

- No, one. - Quite rightfully so, but this guy was seriously legitimately a good person. - Yeah, we've seen this kind of one of my favorite things. We've seen it happen quite a bit in history

where someone has done great things, but we're sort of lost to history and then some journalist or somebody in history or historian dug him up. Well, not literally.

But dug up their legacy and brushed it off and said, "Hey, how about this awesome person "that we kind of forgot about?" - Yeah, it's nice when they're still alive too, so they can get the recognition.

And maybe you're like, "Okay, I'll bet he own slaves "or something like that." Nope, he was agitating for the abolition of slavery. Or he was a gun nut. No, agitating for disarmament.

Like he was humanitarian as if there was ever a humanitarian.

“- Yeah, all right, that's why we take another break.”

Is that good? - Yeah, I think we're at a good break. - Let's all just think about how great Henry do not is. - All right, let's spend a few moments doing that and we'll be right back.

(upbeat music) - What's up fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. - Hey, what's up, y'all? Is she girl Sam J?

- And we're the host of everyone watches women's sports, a new podcast from Together and I Heart Women's Sports. - Because let's be real. - Women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days.

- So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo

rover to go from California to Hawaii. - My first thoughts is like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what do we eat eat? - The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline.

- In the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week, every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. Namely Osaka, showing out she beat, sublinka. - Shout out to you, Namely.

- You get the palm Naomi, you get the palm for that. - Because we're not just interested in what happened, we're interested in why everyone's talking about it. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. - Hey, Portlandia fans. - Carrie Brown seen in Fred Armison here. - You know what, so rather, you know them.

Tonyan Candace, Nina and Lance, spike, and yes, the chicken. - We've played a lot of iconic characters over the years, but today we're showing up other cells to tell you about Podlandia, AO rewatch, our brand new podcast.

- Each week we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia from the very beginning, breaking down the sketches, exploring the back stories of our most iconic characters, revisiting the Portland locations you know and love,

and opening up about our creative process. - How did any of this get made? Why do anything that was a good idea? We're ready to talk about it. - And we'll also be joined by the people

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- Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvise, not just words, but a song about it. - I thought he was gonna write, I thought you were all gonna write a song.

- I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia, AO rewatch on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - My first guest is Harry Sultan, Shakira, Luke, and Yerin.

Samira E, Gracie. - I'm so excited! - On the bounce, you bet. - You have surprises? - I see.

- Many surprises. - Welcome to Sweet 305, where the good chat comes to life. - What the f***! It's like you're going to tell me how.

- Look, I've never been to talk to anyone.

“- That's what I'm telling you, I'm going to tell you.”

(upbeat music) - Yes. - Yes, my hand. - Woof! - Woof! - Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

- I don't only personally know the love story of Star Wars, but I'm not an admirer. I'm not an admirer. I'm not an admirer. Like you said, I would like to collaborate with this person.

- This is Sweet 305. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Ponce as part of My Toludah Parkest Network. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Parkest,

(upbeat music)

“- All right, I dwelled on the life of Henry, do not,”

and I feel even better than I did a few minutes ago. Same, but we're gonna move on and talk a little bit about some of the, it's not all, I talked about one sort of darkness and that they didn't allow Jewish refugees

on mass during World War II. There's some other stuff that they have on their record that's not the greatest in the world. I guess we should talk about Nazi gold a little bit, but in order to talk about that,

we should probably talk a little bit about just there. You talked about them being brilliant business people in a center for business around the world. That happened because after they became formally neutral in 1815, they said, you know what?

This is probably a good place for people to put their money because we're neutral, it's safe. Anytime there's a lot of chaos around the world, like with world wars, everyone knows that they can come here and do some banking, we may not be like a world banking

center with, like, by the likes of London or Berlin,

but we can become pretty quietly powerful in our own way

especially if we tell everyone that all their business will be super private if you know what I'm saying. - Yeah, they put an emphasis on that kind of thing where like if you open an account in Switzerland for decades and take most of the 20th century in fact,

if not longer, you could have a secret bank account where nobody could really figure it out. And that's not fully true, like I think, if say the US government came with a subpoena to find out what the owner was of a specific account,

this was we'd cooperate with them,

“but for the most part, this was secret stuff, right?”

And that was how they made their name as an international banking center, but also because, again, they are really, really good at business. So you do that this was like your money was safe, not just because Switzerland was stable,

but because their banking system was incredibly stable. So a lot of people took advantage of that. Dictators, money launders, eventually drug dealers, terrorists, basically anyone, Jackie Changin, anyone you can think of, who wanted to evade taxes, laundry money,

or just wanted to have their money stashed away, you know, quietly, and weren't really breaking any laws, though you went to Switzerland. Like it's almost a trope. I think it is just the secret Swiss bank account

that you would have money transferred to. - Oh yeah, that officially became official with the Federal Banking Act of 1934 to the utter delight of screenwriters everywhere, then into come.

But that unfortunately dried up in the 1990s

“when they were like, all right, no more secret accounts.”

I guess we got a pretty bad provision. But yeah, it worked this way into a lot of movies over the years. Just like a numbered Swiss bank account, that's growing up with especially cold war movies

and stuff like that, spy thrillers.

It was always like a secret Swiss bank account,

I feel like it played. - They ended up removing that ability from the Swiss banking system because it started to come out just how many bad guys were using it,

where in Switzerland was allowing it to happen. So if their banking system took a hit, it's image did and they're like, we can't afford to do that. We're not making enough money off of drug dealers and terrorists.

We need to brush our image back up. So that's when they got rid of that. - Yeah, and their image probably needed a little brushing up because I mentioned something about Nazi gold, or if I didn't, I'm mentioning it for the first time now.

But they, because of World War II, they, the Swiss National Bank ended up buying

about $440 million in Nazi gold,

which was basically laundering that gold, that was plundered that we talked about a lot of times like the plundering of World War II of the Germans from different countries, brutally from Holocaust victims.

I know we've mentioned stuff like gold, dental fillings, and stuff. - Yeah, that was real. - Yeah, from Jewish concentration camp victims. And so it's not a good look for the Swiss National Bank to be holding onto this stuff.

So later with the Washington Agreement of 1946, they were made to return, well, at least some of that Nazi gold, not much of it, only about 12% of it supposedly to its rightful owners. And they ended up using it for other stuff too,

of Switzerland who had seized property by communist regimes in Europe, so they were like, hey, maybe we'll use some of this Nazi gold to repay our own coffers.

- Yeah, and you said that they basically laundered it,

they 100% laundered this. So they, the Nazis showed up with literally tons and tons of gold, hundreds of tons of gold, that was stolen from other countries, gave it to Switzerland, Switzerland gave the Nazi regime money.

Lots and lots of money in return. And then Switzerland turned around and took that gold and sold it to Spain and Portugal. So they fenced stolen gold for the Nazis and gave the Nazis money in return.

It's as simple as that. People didn't know this until the 1990s when Switzerland was sued by a few organizations including the World Jewish Congress. - Yeah.

- That was bad enough. So this is coming out at the same time

“that the secret account stuff is coming out too.”

So Switzerland's taking like one, two punches. Hey, makers, rope adopes even left and right. And then on top of that, even worse, you said that they were returning 12% of the Nazi gold to its rightful owners

as part of the Washington Agreement in 1946. Well, a lot of people who were fleeing Germany or fleeing the Nazi regime or fleeing the Holocaust, but wanted to kind of keep their valuables

in the safe place. Went to Switzerland to put money in bank accounts to put a valuable items in safe deposit boxes. And after the war ended, their errors would show up and say,

you know, my grandpa or my dad or somebody put this, you know, this family heirloom, this hope diamond in a safe deposit box in your bank. And I'm here to claim it. Here's all the documentation

that I'm the rightful heir. And they would say all of your papers look like they're in order. But I don't see a death certificate and the heir would say, well, my father or grandpa

or whatever died in a concentration camp, the Nazis didn't issue death certificates for that. They kind of wanted to keep it secret. And the Swiss would say, sorry, can't help you. And they did that across the board.

So they basically kept hundreds of millions of dollars as the accusation of legitimate deposits from legitimate heirs of victims of the Holocaust. Yeah. Well, in a lot of times they didn't even have documentation

at all, much less death certificates because that stuff was destroyed in the war. Finally, 1946, they promised to say, all right, we're going to find these assets of Holocaust victims from people who have no identifiable heirs.

And we're going to at least transfer them to a Jewish reconstruction organization. And decades later, they basically concluded that that didn't really happen.

“And then 1990, I think, was when you said, finally,”

like fully was exposed. And there was a suit from the world Jewish Congress

that got a $1.25 billion settlement, finally, 1998.

Yeah. And again, since then, the Swiss have been doing everything they can to kind of rehabilitate their image. But at the same time, they have also shown like they're not ones that just immediately

bow to international pressure. The way that you get them is to hit them in their pocketbooks, like threaten their business or their entire banking industry. That's kind of what the pressure from the outside world was doing.

So for sure, they seem to have rebounded largely. There are some other things that make Switzerland peculiar, too, that are much less evil or dark. One is that they really are in a kind of a weird position as far as international groups go.

Like in some ways, it makes a lot of sense that they're the host of the international red cross headquarters, Geneva is, right? But what about the UN? Should they be members of the UN?

The UN does, they have peacekeeping troops with guns and stuff like that.

“What are the ramifications of Switzerland joining the UN?”

And they debated that for decades?

Yeah, they finally, I mean, it wasn't until 2002

that they even joined the UN. And like you said, it took a long time to kind of work out internally whether or not that's something they wanted to do or that would kind of ruin all of those decades and decades of neutrality that they had become known for.

There was a referendum that they eventually voted on, whether or not to become a member. And advocates said, you know what? If we get involved with them, we can get involved and still be committed to mediation and humanitarian aid.

Like that will be our role within the UN. Right. And it was a pretty close vote. It was 54.6 in favor. And 12, yeah, almost like right at half,

12 out of the 23 cantons voted yes. And then finally in 2023, it became a non-permanent member

That's those peacekeeping troops. That's right.

“And that was another, you know, it wasn't,”

it was pretty evenly split as well. So like even within the country,

they've always sort of hedged like whether or not

they wanted to support joining up with these world groups, you know? Right, exactly. And for good reason, too. I mean, it's tricky stuff.

One of the places or one of the groups that they are just roundly rejecting so much so that they basically told the EU, like we're not negotiating anymore, we're not joining the European Union. And the reason why they actually have pretty legitimate reasons

why, especially if you come at life from a business like attitude, but one is that they would immediately be a net contributor. They would be paying out way more than they were benefiting from being a member of the EU.

And the reason why is because they basically have cherry treaties with all of the European countries to do business with them, which is like a attractive thing for a rich country to join the EU.

“So they had that without being part of the EU,”

without having to pay into the EU right now. So they have the best of both worlds and a really negative incentive, a number of negative incentives to join the EU. Yeah, another is they really love taking care of their own business.

What they would call direct democracy and deciding for them what's best for them. And if you're part of the EU, then obviously you're a part of a larger collective. And you don't like just individual citizens' ability

to decide things for themselves and hold those referendums that would go away. And so they're not into that. And also just, they built up this neutral brand over the years and it's not like branding branding, but it kind of is.

And that they don't want to just throw that all the way after, again, more than 100 years, more than that, actually, of being known. When you think neutral, and you think chocolate, and you think kuku glocks, and army knives,

you think of Switzerland. And they don't want that to go away. Yeah, when you think thirst, you think sprite, when you think neutral, you think of Switzerland. That's right.

There's another thing, too, that being a member of the EU means that any member nation or the residents of any member nation of the EU can move to your place unrestricted as far as I know. So immigration is free throughout the European Union.

And Switzerland is like, we actually are pretty strict on immigration, and we're worried that if we get a lot of people migrating to Switzerland, the wages in Switzerland are going to start to be decompressed, because a lot of people migrating here are willing to accept

far less than what the average Swiss person has paid. So yeah, essentially, they have all these incentives, you know, morally upstanding or not, to not join the EU. And it does not look like they are ever going to join the EU.

Yeah, or NATO, obviously, that's a worrying organization. For sure, or not a worrying organization, but a military alliance. For sure. And for all of its blemishes in rough spots and all that,

I hope Switzerland stays Switzerland, you know? It would be a-- I think everyone does. I think the world would kind of lose something if Switzerland just became like any other country, you know?

Agreed. Well, that's Switzerland, Chuck. Swiss neutrality, I should say. That's right.

“If you want to know more about Swiss neutrality,”

travel of Switzerland, or watch a documentary on Switzerland. And in the meantime, it's time for listening or mail. [PHONE RINGING] This is another Mashbolo up. Hey, guys, a huge Mashman.

I'm a bit older than Chuck, and still only 12, when it debuted. It was a perfect blend of comedy and poignant drama, showing the horrors of war.

I always thought the writing was brilliant.

And did take characters on a great growth arc, being a closeted gay kid now openly and very happy gay man. It was one of the first times that a TV show dealt with the subject of homosexuality in a sympathetic way, even if only on one episode.

I was such a fan that I developed a Mash trivia game, similar to trivial pursuit. And a number of details you mentioned in your episode were part of the game, like Toledo and Tony Pactos. So great job, guys.

You always do a great job, and you're so pleasant to listen to on my daily walks. And whenever you guys touch on LG, TVQ, plus topics, you do an amazing job as to straight guys. So thank you for that.

And that is from Dave and Vancouver. Dave, I hope you're coming to see our live show in Vancouver. Yeah. We can't wait. There's still tickets available for all of the--

well, I guess the first leg will be over by this time.

But that second leg in July, I believe, is probably somewhere around this time. Yeah, we'd love to see everyone. Coming up quick, Dave. So yeah, we'd love to see you too.

You can watch us be two straight guys live and in person.

If you want to be like Dave and let us know

how much you'd like us. We'd really appreciate those kind of emails, or you can say whatever you like.

“Whatever you have to say, send it off to [email protected].”

Stuff you should know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the I Heart Radio app. Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carry Brown seen in Fred Armison here.

The dream of the 90s is a live in podcast form.

We're launching Pod Landia, A-O-R-Watch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together. Breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters, and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made.

And we'll also be joined by the people who helped to bring it all to life.

“guest stars, collaborators, and friends,”

including director Jonathan Chrysler,

the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician,

Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvise not just words, but a song about it. I thought you were all gonna write a song about it. I remember you thinking about it.

Listen to Pod Landia, A-O-R-Watch on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nick Tutorial. Probably know me from NYU PD Blue, the longest shot, or Spike Lee's Black Plansman.

And on my no podcast, the Livering Happiness with Nick Tutorial, I deliver pizza to a new guest. I've shared a slice with everyone from Seth Rollins, where you're doing my belt. To Bill Burr.

I don't think I've ever met somebody, so exactly out of the mind is I am. And now we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Tutorial. Let's go with happiness, the Livering Happiness.

And many, many more. Open your free, high-hot radio app, search, delivering happiness, with Nick Tutorial. And listen now. This is Chelsea Hamlet from Dear Chelsea.

Every week, the news gets worse. The world gets crazier. And Yamunaika is here to tell whoever's responsible, you're the problem.

“Do you know I've just found out who Sydney Sweetie was?”

If he got a bunch of women, then I shall have a bunch of men. Do better, or do less, so I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamunaika, and I'm out. Listen to you, the problem with Yamunaika, on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. (upbeat music) This isn't I-Heart Podcast. Guarantee to you, man.