In search of the perfect lobster roll

It's also the source of the strangest Hollywood story you had ever heard.

“I'm Malcolm Godwell, and on my podcast revisionist history we're telling a story that invites”

so much absurd speculation that we're going to have to tell it across two episodes. You will almost certainly feel compelled to see Zutopia 2 for yourself. And if you already have you may need to see it again. This into our Bizarre 2 part series under vision history, wherever you get your podcasts. Support for the Big Dig comes from Boston ski antennas, helping you and your family get

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And also from revision energy, an employee owned renewable energy company with over 20 years

experience building and servicing solar systems for local homes and businesses. Learn how to revision your power at revisionenergy.com. We talked a lot this season about fish. Of course, the cod, the haddock, flounder, we heard about monkfish, graysoul, hake, halibut. But if you've ever spent a summer in New England, you know that there is one food we

take even more seriously than our fish, and that is our shellfish. When it comes to lobster rolls, people around here have very, very strong opinions. So today, I'm excited to bring you an episode from one of my personal favorite podcasts, The Sporkful, in which host Dan Pashman travels to Martha's Vineyard,

“to uncover the secret recipe of his favorite lobster roll.”

And believe me, when Dan Pashman says that a food is his favorite, he has a good reason for saying that. Plus, in the same episode, Daniel Gritzer from Sirius eats breaks down the science of why frozen lobster might be better than fresh.

As always, Dan and the team have a special knack for telling stories about food that also help you understand the world.

You can find all their work wherever you're listening right now, just search for the Sporkful. Now, please enjoy the secret to Grace Church's lobster rolls. Where are we today? What's going on here? Where are we today?

We are at Grace Church on the island of Martha's Vineyard. And we are preparing to do our weekly Friday night lobster roll extra begins. Every Friday night in the summer, this small, Episcopal Church on an island off the coast of Massachusetts, sells lobster rolls and their parish hall. This is not your typical church fundraiser.

Last week, we sold 1,400 lobster rolls out of this kitchen. Wow, I grew up coming to Martha's Vineyard every summer with my family. And we have been eating these lobster rolls for years. Now, in case you're not familiar, at its essence, a lobster roll is chunks of lobster meat mixed with mayo on a hot dog bun. And let me tell you, the ones at Grace Church are special.

Look at it, it's nothing but giant chunks of lobster with maybe enough mayonnaise to make the chunks stick together. You sink your teeth in it. It's so fresh, you can actually taste the brine. Have you had one? Oh absolutely, why are you asking me that?

These lobster rolls draw people from all walks of life on the vineyard. Not just the faithful members of Grace Church. Don't tell our Rabbi, we're going Friday nights. You haven't been to the vineyard unless you go to Grace Church on Fridays. This became more than just a fundraiser.

Churches have fundraisers, but what I saw was a community building. And anything that becomes a community builder is a ministry. This is the sport full, it's not for food, it's for eaters, I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. This week, as we kick off summertime, I'm traveling to New England.

Where a lobster roll is the perfect cheat to grab on your way to or from the beach. Now my mom's whole side of the family is from the Boston area. I went to college and lived there for six years. So hold my can of narrow against that log or while I stand up on my soapbox shape like a lobster trap.

“A lobster roll is the best way to eat lobster.”

It's also the most cost effective, as I'll explain. But the superior taste, I think, comes from two facts. Number one, lobster is better when it's cool. It makes it so it's thin skin snaps just a bit when you bite into it.

Butter turns lobster meat slimy.

Lobster goes better with mayo than butter. There, I said it. As I mentioned, to be a lobster roll, it's got to have lobster and mayo on a hot dog bun. Anything more is optional. Of course, if it's going to be remotely respectable, the bun must be a New England style top sliced hot dog bun,

which has the exposed bread on the sides instead of crust all around. In 1988, a group of six congregants at Grace Episcopal Church started selling lobster rolls and Friday evenings as a fundraiser. It was a small affair, but word of these lobster rolls started spreading and spreading. Today they've been voted best on Martha's Vineyard for 15 straight years.

One summer, a few years back, I was on Martha's Vineyard with my family because it and my parents who lived there year round now. I went over to Grace Church on a Friday. A couple hours where the lobster rolls would go on sale.

Talk with the folks who make them.

“How many lobster rolls do you eat in an average summer?”

In an average summer? One. You're kidding. No. Now, my girlfriend and I, the night of the fireworks, after working here,

we sit on her porch and oak gloves and we drink champagne and eat lobster rolls. And then fall asleep on the porch. [laughter] Last week, we were here for nine hours. So, yeah, lobster roll on a bottle of champagne is in order after that.

This is Sandy Pratt. She joined the lobster roll committee 25 years ago. My next door neighbor was one of the original lobster roll ladies. And she got me roped into helping her on Friday night. So, every Friday night in the summertime, this is what I do.

So, you were not one of the original six who were here the very first year.

But you were a very early adopter. Very first year, the very first year, the first woman who came up with the idea, because she had a friend that did it at her, was a woman named Mary Tucker. She is now, I want to say a hundred, but I don't think she's quite a hundred. So, she doesn't come in and make lobster rolls anymore.

But if I see her around, I'll tell her you said she was a hundred. No, yeah, yeah, you can do that. You can probably be pleased. But so, what were those early years like? Well, I'll tell you, when I first started it, there were two couples that used to come in.

He was a coach at the high school and his wife. And the other was an FBI guy and his wife. And they would come with a cooler full of cocktails. So, at that point, we got those nights. We were only doing maybe a hundred, a hundred and fifty lobster rolls.

But you were having fun. We were having a great time. I didn't see any cocktails in the kitchen the night I was there.

“But one thing that hasn't changed, the recipe is lobster, right?”

Mayonnaise, right? And white pepper and tender loving care. This is Roger McGarry, another volunteer. As we spoke, he was mixing several pounds of lobster meat with mayo in a huge bowl. And what are the ratios of lobster meat to mayo to white pepper? Uh, you, it's a shake of the pepper.

Mix up the lobster shake a little more. Mix up some more. And then you put mayo in just to make it squish. That's the formula. Make it squish. Make it squish, you know you've got a mayo. Is there a sound that you listen for?

Absolutely. I'm going to put a microphone close. I want to hear the sound. You want to feel, I don't want to hear it. Let's try it. I'm cranking up the volume. All right, let's hear it. That's the squish.

That's the squish. What is the wrong squish sound like?

“The wrong squish is, you don't get the squish. It's very light.”

Or it's just too wet because you put too much mayo in it. So too much mayo, it's going to sound, I would think maybe it's going to sound kind of heavy and gloopy. Yeah, yes. There's literally no official recipe on any piece of paper somewhere. No.

You just have to listen for this squish. Yes. And one of the old times that taught me how to mix. Yes. When it's squishes, you've got enough mayo. And that's been my formula.

So that's Roger, or as I like to think of him, the keeper of this squish. The Grace Church recipe is most notable for what's not in it. No tarragon or dill. No scallions or paprika like these fancy places like to use. Not even any celery. And I'm actually okay with celery in a lobster roll.

As long as it's chop very small, I like the zesty crunch. Most importantly, though, at Grace Church, no lettuce. A lot of places use lettuce and lobster rolls to deceive you. A lobster roll arrives with the meat piled high over the top of the bun. And you look at it. You think, wow, that's a lot of lobster.

Then you bite into it and find out that hidden under all that meat is a bunch of lettuce.

A Grace Church, it's all lobster.

While Roger mixed, other folks reporting in the lobster meat into eight ounce containers. And this is another thoughtful element to the operation. They don't combine the meat and buns into the last second. And if you order it to go, they give them to you separately. This keeps the buns from getting soggy.

In my family, we take them home so we can griddle the buns in butter.

“That's a pretty crucial part of an idea lobster roll.”

Grace Church doesn't have the staff to individually griddle 1,400 buns to order. As Roger, Sandy, and several other crew members move around the kitchen, one man quietly keeps an eye on everything. Everybody around here knows me as a bow picker. Bow picker is originally from Worcester Mass.

He moved to the island 20 years ago. When we meet, he's wearing a hat made out of a giant plush lobster. Bow runs his own business, repairing propane gas lines and appliances.

He's almost always on call for his customers.

But for him, lobster roll nights are sacred. I don't mean I don't do my business on Fridays. Do it on a summer. My Friday's again. You've got a problem.

I've got to take extreme emergency. You can wait until tomorrow. Bow started volunteering at the lobster roll dinners in 2014. He liked it so much that he and his wife decided to join Grace Church. When the founding lobster roll ladies retired a few years ago,

Bow took over as chair of the lobster roll committee. The money raised each summer goes towards the church's ministries and mission projects, including local and overseas organizations. Last year, we got a late start. We've cleared 48.

48,000 dollars. Still, that's, I'm sure that makes a difference. Yeah. In this year, we've, we've taught that this year. Already in the winter when I done yet.

“So what's the all-time record for most lobster rolls in one night?”

Um, is it 15? I got the old, I got the old chart. Oh, you got a chart? Let's see the chart. Show me the chart. Oh, look at this. Lobster rolls sales.

Wow, 2015. There was a stretch in July and August 2015. What was happening then? 1213, 1400. You had, you had three weeks in a row of over 1,400 lobster rolls.

People were still on the island and they, they'd like them. Don't fall off to me. As Bow reels off these numbers, I'm looking at these huge mixing bowls filled with chunks of lobster. I'm starting to wonder, where does all this lobster come from?

I mean, I just always assumed the church had some set up with one of the fish markets on the island

to get fresh local lobster. But it started to hit me. Half a pound of lobster per roll. 1,400 rolls in a night. That's 700 pounds of lobster meat sold in one evening.

There are not many small local fish markets anywhere that can get you 700 pounds of fresh lobster meat all on the same day. I was nervous to ask Bow about it. I was afraid me, I was digging into some closely guarded secret. But he just told me.

I guess I get it through Cisco, okay.

“And I think it will come from Canada, I think.”

Okay. Casey didn't catch that. Bow said he gets the lobster from Cisco. That's the same huge food service company that supplies restaurants all over the country, as well as school cafeterias and hospitals.

You're probably seeing their trucks on the highway. The lobster meat comes frozen in two pound bags. This blew my mind. For as long as I can remember, it has been drilled into my head that if seafood is going to be any good, it's got to be fresh, not frozen.

I waited tables at a popular seafood restaurant in Boston and that's all they talked about. So how is it possible that the best lobster rolls I've ever had in my life are made with frozen lobster meat? I had come in search of lobster rolls.

But it would appear I had stumbled into a mystery. Coming up, the search for answers. Then later, the church doors open, lobster roll night begins. Stick around. Time to cook up some advertisement.

Welcome back to the sport full, I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, we talked about the other thing that goes in a hot dog bun. Hot dogs. And comedian Jamie Lough just knows what she wants when it comes to a hot dog bun. I prefer toasted.

I like steamed, but you can't do nothing. You can't do what my dad did and shake it out raw. And then slap in a boiled hot dog and be like, "This is how I express love." Jamie tells us about her cross country road trip, which he samples some of the finest dogs in America has to offer.

Plus we look at the dark history of the Nathan's hot dog eating contest, and we discuss what makes hot dogs so American. That ones up now, check it out. Now, back to the show. When we left off our heartwarming story about Grace Church's lobster roll night,

had turned into a mystery.

Conventional wisdom says fresh seafood is always better than frozen.

So how is it possible that the best lobster rolls have ever had in my life are made with frozen lobster meat? As soon as Beau told me the lobster was frozen, I told him, "I said, Beau, you've got to walk me through the whole process." All right, tell me exactly what you do with it.

He said, "It arrives on a Monday, and he thaws it out slowly over the course of the week." We drained the lobster meat and let it drain naturally. And I filled up the containers, we were special containers that I used that are like a square calendar.

And we put the lobster meat in the packages, and then drained down onto regular plastic can below that. We go down to Wednesday, we go down again on Thursday, and then I'm Friday morning to hear.

“Wait, so what's the liquid that's being drained from that?”

The natural water that comes from the lobster. That's interesting because one of the things that I've noticed is some other lobster rolls that I've eaten that were less good is that they're kind of watery. The meat tastes a little watery.

And I guess that must be because they're not draining the meat as much. That's very possible. Yeah, no, we just let it drain naturally.

So Beau basically made special giant strainers for thawing

and draining the lobster meat. Lobsters are especially wet creatures, so this process naturally removes a lot of water from the meat. Beau comes in every day throughout the week to empty the water from the trays.

So what exactly does that do? I reached out to my friend Daniel Gritzer. He's the Senior Culinary Director at Sirius Eats. And when I talked to him, he had just gotten back from Maine, so he'd been eating a lot of lobster rolls.

First things to know. I think the success of a lobster roll largely hinges on the texture of the lobster meat. And in particular, the tail,

“because the tail meat can become very chewy,”

very quickly. And if you think of sort of your ideal sandwich, and putting aside whether we consider a lobster roll a sandwich type situation,

we never want when we're eating any kind of sandwich,

to take a bite and you pull the sandwich away that you somehow accidentally pull the contents of the sandwich out with it. Bottom line, if the tail meat is tough, you can't bite all the way through it and you end up pulling it out in one big chunk.

So what is freezing do? Any kind of seafood that has a tendency towards toughness can sometimes be better after freezing, because the freezing itself can act as a tenderizing process, sort of like, you know,

some people like to beat their octopus before they cook it, to tenderize it. The ice crystals kind of do the same thing. When you freeze meat, ice crystals form in that meat, and those ice crystals can puncture

and break open the cells that the meat itself is built out of. By cutting through the cells and cutting through the tissue, you've got this tenderizing effect, and maybe the tail meat in the lobster benefits from that. But what about this idea I've heard?

The frozen seafood isn't as good. Daniel says there is some merit to that. He says typically those ice crystals hurt a lobster's more delicate claw meat. They tear up the cells and leave tiny holes,

making the claw meat spongy. Not so good. But that's where the Grace Church's draining process comes to the rescue. Maybe the prolonged draining

allows that to collapse down on itself a little bit, so that you're not only getting a concentration of flavor, but maybe you're also sort of fixing some of those textual issues that the claw can really suffer from. Daniel says this all seems very plausible to him,

but he adds that to be sure we'd have to do a proper study. Guess we're going to have to eat more lobster rolls. There is one more bit of science that I have to reference

“that I think helps explain why these lobster rolls are so good.”

There's a researcher at Oxford named Charles Spence. We've had him here on the podcast before, and he has shown that the setting for a meal influences how the food tastes to us. Spence has worked in Spire's chef,

Heston Blumenthal to serve a seafood dish with headphones at his restaurant in London. As you eat your seafood, you hear sounds of the ocean and sea goals. Research shows that actually makes you think the fish tastes

fresher, better. At Grace Church, you don't need headphones. You can smell the salt water from the front door. It does taste better when you're sitting near the ocean. 100% like the only other lobster rolls that I've ever had

that I enjoy nearly as much as at Grace Church ones come from Kelly's on a Revere Beach. Oh, okay. Just north of Boston. This is Susan Eibner.

She's the interim priest at Grace Church.

How do you feel about that?

No. No. That's too bad. Yeah. Yeah.

But when I find the ones nowadays that have like, the tarragon is about the dill or they want to put it. It's just like where they fill it. They do the filler with the lettuce. Oh.

Unacceptable. Yeah. We literally did they show you how they weigh out every single container or lobster roll gets the same amount. Absolutely eight ounces.

Right. Which is a lot. Yeah.

“It's interesting to me, Susan, because I think that a lot of people perceive”

lobster rolls as expensive because they're on a menu they're often like in the sandwich

section. Right. And so if you're looking at roast beef sandwich, eight dollars, turkey sandwich, nine dollars and then you see lobster roll, twenty dollars. You're like, whoa, that's an expensive sandwich.

But that's, I don't think that's the right economic way to think about it. Okay. Because eight ounces of lobster meat. I actually researched this today before coming here because I was curious. On average, a one pound lobster in the shell yields three to three and a half ounces.

Yeah. Yeah. So you're doing eight ounces. That means that it is more meat than you would get from a two pound lobster, which is big.

Yeah. If you were to go into a nice restaurant in order to pound lobster with the drawn butter and all that, the whole big lobster in the plate, it would cost way more than twenty dollars. Yes. Yeah.

Say what? You're absolutely right. Yeah.

“Susan clearly knows her way around a lobster roll.”

She was born and raised and made. And she's seen her share of church fundraisers. She's been up past her all over the country. In fact, that's her job. She works with churches when they're in between priests.

Sometimes she stays a few months. Sometimes a few years. She's been at Grace Church since 2016. I got the job here because I have dealt with community grief. And their last priest died.

And they were heartbroken. And so this has been a time of of helping them to really come back to their own. Susan says these lobster rolls dinners at Grace Church are the most ambitious church fundraiser. She has ever encountered. But they're special in another way too.

People come in and it's like old home week. It's like everybody comes in and they're glad to see each other. And they've seen each other. They're other summers and people meet people here and remember people here and go and sit at tables together that they only do here on Friday nights. And anything that becomes a community builder in this day and age is a ministry.

Another thing that brings new people into Grace Church, the stained glass windows that depict two black priests who were early leaders in the Episcopal Church. Those windows are part of Martha's vineyards African American heritage trail.

“People are coming in and going so where are the windows?”

Can we take a look? We left the parish hall and went into the church sanctuary. So this is the window for the first African American Episcopal priest is Absalom Jones. Reverend Jones is depicted in a black robe holding a communion cup and a wafer. The other window features the right Reverend John M. Burgess.

The first African American diosis in Bishop. He's in a white robe holding a candle lighter and a Bible. Seeing people come in and seeing those windows, one woman said to me, "There's only other one other church in my entire life that I ever saw." And African American depicted somebody who looked like me in a stained glass window.

And it was just one of those moments where as a white woman of privilege, I think it is the way I would describe myself. I was stunned by that.

I had never thought about the fact that Jesus wasn't white.

Thank you very much, but he was never depicted that way the way he really was. He's usually depicted as a white man. But I never really thought about the fact that African Americans didn't see stained glass windows, where the faces of people looked like them. And so there was the learning for me and there was a pride in the people who go in and look at the two windows.

After getting a good look at the stained glass windows, Susan and I returned to the parish hall, where the doors were just about to open for lobster roll night. Everyone was moving around the room faster now, there was less joking around. People had their game faces on. It was time to ask, "Pastor Susan, one last question."

How do you like your lobster roll? They pretty much have it. I grew up in Down East, Maine. Oh, yes. You're like New England to the core.

I am. Yeah. And lobster roll to the core. You don't mess with lobster. I'm a purist.

Yeah. I fit in here.

I love this huge griber self as a purist in terms of lobster rolls,

“because you're like, "Jesus wasn't white,”

but don't you dare put tarragon on my lobster roll." That's great. That's right. You know? Right.

That's the fiscal church in a nutshell. We can take one more quick break, but coming up, Grace Church opens its doors to the Martha's Vineyard masses, and my mom reveals her tricks for assembling the perfect lobster roll.

Stick around. Welcome back to the sportable. I'm Dan Pashman. And today I'm at Grace Church. This has been where it's lobster roll.

I am. Sandy can't check in with you. Yeah. It's just a few minutes before 4 p.m.

What were the things to stand?

Where do things to stand? Well, we are ready. We've got all our stations man. The pie cable is full of pies. And we're ready.

Hopefully we can move the men and move them out. And what are the emotions like over the course of the day of Friday, building up to this moment when the door is open? Let's repeat a long line. There you go.

That's it. That's a one. Let's let it be a good night. Let it be a good night, and let nobody yell at anybody in the kitchen. Sometimes it gets a little tense in the kitchen.

These guys will get backed up, and we won't have enough containers for them, and we'll be trying to make them as fast as we can, and they're standing there. I need three more. And we say, you know,

you'll get 'em when we're ready. At four o'clock, the door is open. Ten minutes later, they had sold a hundred lobster rolls, and there was a line out the door. The hall is a pretty typical church function room,

wood ceilings, simple decorations. It has three or four big round tables with red and white checkered tablecloths. The tables are communal, so different groups end up sitting together. There was the college student here working for the summer,

having her first grace church experience.

“I think the amount of lobster that came on the rolls,”

a little shocking when the first came out. The husband and wife pilots were on the island for the season. We know people that fly in from Connecticut on Fridays to come here, because first of all, the lobster rolls with delicious, and secondly, the charity is wonderful.

And a woman who's been coming to Martha's vineyard for 40 years, since she was a baby. The lobster is big and juicy. I mean, they have the biggest lobster pieces that I've seen, the chunks. And it's nice and sweet.

And it just tastes really good, and everybody's friendly, so I guess that makes it special too. Then there was this guy. Can you tell your name please? I am Captain Ralph Joseph.

Hey, Captain. Oh, here's your business card, okay. I advertise lobster rolled charters. You guys are my biggest star out in New Bedford. People stand in line at the docks to come out here,

and have these lobster rolls. Wait, seriously? Yeah. Lops are old charters. Yeah.

In New Bedford? Nice and juicy. People, you will hire you to take them in a boat from New Bedford to Martha's vineyard just eat these lobster rolls. I talked them into it.

They do some shopping. They mingle with the locals. I mean, they enjoy the island, but the highlight that I advertise is the lobster rolls. These lobster rolls.

Absolutely. I spotted Beau in the corner of the kitchen, surveying the scene. His plush lobster hat had gotten turned a little crooked, and all the craziness. All right, Beau.

You'll feel like you're taking a minute to yourself. How are things going? How's the night proceeding so far? Good. Here we go.

“Can you tell at this point where we're about 30 minutes in now?”

Can you tell how big of a night it's going to be? Nope. No way. So, like, in 10 minutes, a thousand people may show up. Or what time it could stop dead?

Right. No clue. Right. Right. I'm hoping I'm hoping for $1,000.

All right. All right. That's a good goal. Good goal. At this point, I was starving. It was time to place my order.

All right. Well, Louise, I would like four lobster rolls, please. You would like four lobster rolls. As they put my food together, I chatted with Simone Pratt. She's been coming to Martha's vineyard every summer for more than 20 years, since she was in college.

I'm kind of a traditionalist. I like tradition. I like passing on traditions in my family, so I think also the mistake of coming here and doing this. I only come once a year here. So, I think it adds to the fandom.

You don't seem to be eating a lobster roll. Because I have it in a container, because I'm going out to watch the sunset in Minemcha, so I'm going to eat it while I'm watching the sunset. So, lobster rolls and sunsets for you tonight? Yeah. Yeah, lobster rolls and sunsets, kind of perfect. Yeah.

back to my parents' house.

After Janey and I put the kids to bed, my mom and I griddled up the buns in butter.

“Remember, these are New England style hot dog buns,”

so pictures slice of white bread, fold it in half, so you have open bread on the sides, bread that you can butter and griddle. My mom's got it down to a science. Oh, look at them. It smells so good.

It smells very butter right now. Yeah. Yeah. I brush melted butter, salted melted butter. On each side of the roll, and then I put it in the skillet, and they get really crispy and buttery and warm,

and you stuff the lobster meat until the roll almost splits. If the roll splits, you've not done it correctly. The roll has to be warm, and the lobster meat has to be cold, and you have that contrast of warm and not ice cold, but cool. That's what it's about.

I agree. I agree. But I agree, I agree about something again. That's really good. I didn't record the actual eating of the lobster rolls,

because I was on vacation, and I just wanted to enjoy my food.

So if I sit to say, they were as amazing as always.

The claws, tender, plump, the tail meat, meaty, but not tough, and like my mom said, that contrast with the warm buttery bun. I mean, that is all you need. A few final notes. First, I am aware of the Connecticut lobster roll,

which is warm lobster meat in butter on a bun, but that is an abomination, which is why it was omitted from this episode. Moving on. Remember, Beau said he was hoping to sell 1,000 lobster rolls that night I was there?

They ended up selling 852. Solid show it. Also Grace Church now has a permanent record to replace interim priest Susan Eibner. His name's Stephen Harding, and Lake Susan is knowing the native.

“So I think Grace Church's lobster rolls will be safe”

under his leadership. He's not going to try to sneak any lettuce in there. My thanks to Beau, Sandy, Susan, Roger, and to Karen Huff of the Grace Church lobster roll committee for being part of this episode.

For pictures of the lobster rolls and other stuff I'm eating, please follow me on Instagram at The Sportful.

Finally, some related Martha's Vineyard News.

I'm going to be moderating a panel at a food history symposium called Martha's Vineyard Flavors happening this weekend. The first weekend in June at the Martha's Vineyard Museum. The panel I'm moderating will feature author Joan Nathan, restaurateur Hugh Taylor, chef Austin Ressine,

and most lunch, and Rebecca Miller of North Taver Farm. And this is part of a weekend of festivities, demonstrations, talks, and delicious meals. You can get it ticket for the whole weekend, or you can get tickets for just part of the weekend.

So if you get Saturday afternoon, June 3rd, that will include the event that I'm moderating.

“Hope to see you there, get more info and tickets”

at mvmuseum.org. We'll also put a link in the show notes. Next week ahead of the top chef finale, I talk with Gale Simmons about her 20 seasons as a judge on the show. The latest season was filmed in London,

so she tells me that her favorite chocolate bars across the pond. Plus, we hear why she resented that her mother was a food writer and cooking teacher. Why wait for that one? Check out my conversation with Jamie Loftis about hot dogs,

and much more, that's available now. This episode was originally produced by me along with... ...and Santa. And... ...and...

...and... ...and put it well there. It was edited by Peter Clownie. The sportful team now is Senior Producer. I'm a Morgan Stern.

...and producer. And Drace O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The sportful is a production of

Stitchers, studios, our executive producers are Colin Anderson and Nora Richie. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And I'm Liz Wing from some of your Massachusetts. Reminding you to eat more, eat better,

and eat more better. I really hope you're enjoying the show. And before I let you go, I just want to drop in with that constant podcast of reminder to please rate the show,

leave us a review, subscribe, and of course, tell a friend. All that stuff really, really does help us keep the show going. Thank you so much. From PRX.