Messi Takes England Out of the World Cup, Plus Preparing for Christopher Nolan’s 'The Odyssey' With Ian Wright, Anthony Dabbundo, and Sean Fennessey

What's up?

I am filling in for Bill while he is away and today on the podcast, we are talking the

two things that matter most in the world to me, the world cup and the Odyssey. So the world cup, I talked to Ian Wright, former Arsenal legend, current UK media pundit for stick to football and our own podcast crossways over here at the ringer podcast network. Ian is a legend of the English game and was nice enough to join me to talk about England's

loss to Argentina in that incredibly thrilling semi final. We talked a little bit about Spain and France and the final that's coming up on Sunday between Spain and Argentina but I talked more in depth about the final with Anthony DeBundo joined me after Ian and then I wrap things up with a long chat with Sean Fennesey about the Odyssey.

There's no spoilers in that.

It's mostly a Christopher Nolan conversation but since that is sort of the movie event of the year, I thought what better, what better time to talk about it and who better to talk about it with than the coast of the big picture. You can also listen to me on the watch on Mondays and Thursdays and I'm going to be doing one more podcast with Adam Friedland on the beautiful pod on Friday.

We're going to be talking about the tournament as a whole and previewing Sunday's action. Bill will be back on Sunday.

“I think Anthony DeBundo and I are going to join him after the World Cup final.”

So we'll be coming to you probably live after that match. Hope everybody has a great weekend. Enjoy the Odyssey.

Enjoy the World Cup final.

Let's get into the show. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. You know, a clutch move when you see one, a no look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steel. Well, imagine if you're wallet can pull off moves like that. That my friends is PayPal right now.

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Save those offers. Start scoring rewards, terms and exclusions apply. See PayPal.com/rewardsterms, credit card points, subject to issuers, terms and conditions. . Alright guys, this is a really huge honor for me.

I'm joined by Ian Wright, my friend Ian Wright. One of the greatest strikers to ever play English football. Captain with 30 times for England, an arsenal legend. Now a plundit, you can see him in Hiram on stick to football with Gary Nevel, Jamie Carriger, Roy King, Jill Scott.

You can hear him with Steph Houten on crossways here, Ranger Spotify. He's also one of the best dudes out there. And Ian, thank you so much for taking time on what must be a heartbreaking late afternoon for you in New York.

“I guess I'll start here, two cool tribes to turn Atlanta into Aztecca, right?”

And he brings on cancer, he brings on Irioli, he brings on Burr, he takes off Gordon, Rice, Reach James, Rice and Reach James looked a little banged up. And then it was at the right strategy, but the wrong time or how did you feel about this decision of his to defend that lead that won't go lead? It was when you considered a two cool somebody, Chris, that we brought in for his bravery.

We've given him a lot of applause, it's on the fact that he's left a lot of people at home that people wanted to see in this squad that may be now in this game in a game where you looked at us and we looked like we were struggling with defending deep couldn't get out with enough no ball players to get us out and maybe get to the to the wings where we could have hurt Argentina.

I think to see us once we scored the goal to only have 12% possession after that until I think that the Taro Martinez scored says that it was a kind of a negative play from my point of view.

“From what I saw and I think that Chris you have to go back to, I'll go back to our final”

in the Euros in Wembley against Italy, we're in the game, you know, Luke Shaw, you know, then we we start defending, you know, the same with, you know, even Spain, final in the game, you know, we're doing well, Spain will come and then we start defending and

I thought we started the game very well today, Chris, we kind of went a man to man.

We really denied messy space, we had Anderson in and around him, Jude was in and around him. And I think that it was a very brave thing to do and I quite liked it because it was working, but Chris, you know, I was still disappointed that we weren't getting out and getting to the width, which Argentina are very narrow with the way they played it.

Want to play it through the middle. And this is why it was such an unbelievable move from messy at the end to completely like destroy us because they normally very narrow trying to play through the middle with the

“one, two, it's just crying and I thought that that space is on the flanks and that's how”

we scored.

Jude made the run, we got out the flank, the ball came in and Batman that was it.

But when you consider that in a semi final, we only have seven touches in the opposing box, it says that that's not enough and 12% after you score a goal, possession is no we're near enough to win a semi final. But from their point of view, even though I say and they started with their, a new at able to do with Jude and with the guys are going to try and intimidate Chris, they're going

to do this stuff, which you expect them to do. But when they started playing, especially when they went to go down Chris, this is a team that's scary, it's a scary team to play because they can play football and they're very dogged my friend. But my old colleagues at cram, he threw this setup on Twitter on X, here are Argentina's

winners in the knockout rounds.

Cape Verde, 111th minute, Egypt, 90 second minute, Switzerland, 112th minute, England, 90

second minute.

“You're not going to be Argentina won nothing, you know?”

And that's the thing, Chris, and this is why, when you mention about two cool and the guys he brought on, he seemed like he was bringing guys on to shore up a game with a team that you're giving the impetus to come at you and they've got arguably the greatest player that's ever lived, who then realized, listen, I'm not getting anything through the middle of this team.

So let me just ease myself out to the right-hand side and, you know, we didn't like whether it's Nico Riley, whoever it was on that side, dude coming across, whoever it was, no one got tight, so you can actually make people say, okay, he's marked, even though they might give it to Messi when he's tight, he's not going to have the time what we gave him to then get those crosses is because you look at McCallus, the shit of the squad, a couple,

shit of the squad of couple, and in the end it was still, it was the Tara Martinez, who did his score, but we can't, you can't just leave Messi on that side, just because you bought

“five players on and not have a game plan, okay, Messi is now not going through the middle,”

he's stopped trying to play his one-two's into the middle, play round people and getting to the box that way, he's come out to the right-hand side to put crosses in and they should have scored with two more and I'm very surprised that we didn't see that and again, I'm very surprised that we went so defensive so quickly, and then you look at somebody as well, Chris like a, maybe a Kobe mainer, you need, I'm not going to say we should be taking off

in this, I'm just like spitballing, but yeah, I know I know I need to ask you this, yeah, I'll just, you need somebody who's comfortable on the ball, wherever that's Kobe, whoever is going to be, that's it, and then maybe, maybe, you know, the way Harry was playing, you look at Harry, Harry wasn't really given us anything in the game and I thought, and I'll say, we've all due respect, he's our great score as our great score in our history,

but in the game and the last game, we didn't get a lot from him, so if we can play a different strategy, maybe we could have hit the ball long, got people around, someone like a Ivan Tony, you know, with Rashford next to him with the pace Chris and then at least we're giving the defenders some some breathing space to get their breath back and go again, but we just get, just coming back and I thought, he's strategy to bring on the defensive guys and

the 5, 4, 1, it obviously is not going to work, it's not going to work against Argentina, one meal down work, well champions who are trying to win another one, it's not going to work, right? The messy thing has been one of the magical storylines of this entire tournament and a watching him out there, you're just watching this super computer that can't get knocked

over. And I felt like at some point in this match, he was like, I'm not going to score. So what I'm going to do is have either the assist or the hockey assist for what's going to like he knew that they were dedicated to the idea, this guy is not going to beat us and he was like, I'm still going to beat you, it's just not going to be with a Chris.

Chris, this is just the game intelligence for the great is play out for me. I'm probably, you know, he looks like he's getting to two well cups, he could have two well cups on the spin, probably in respect of achievement, that will go down as a great achievement by any player for him to have two out of all the so called goats.

can see it Chris, even if if someone fouls him and they stand around him too long, people

“just come from everywhere from Argentina, don't you dare stand next to him like that, don't”

be there disrespecting the protection he's got, but the respect he has for that team as well, where he can say right, I am going to step out, I'm not going to go involved getting involved in there, I'm going to step out to this right hand side, they'll continually get the ball to mercy and this is where we made a massive mistake, we should have seen it, his game intelligence from his point of view, I'm going to stay out here and if someone

comes with me, okay, then I might have to take them on, if they don't, then I'll just keep crossing into that area and let's face it, to grab Messi at 39 my friend, still getting the ball, especially for the winning goal, getting on the outside of our players at 39 crossing with his weaker foot, pin point, guitar on Martinez scores, you know, just somebody that's knows he's great enough to know that I can cause my problems out here and his magnanimous

enough to give somebody else the credit, in respect of winning the game for them, so, you know, I'm disappointed with the manner in which we lost, you know, I'm not saying that

“we had the most difficult run to the semi-final, we didn't, but I think that when you”

look at our history and we get to these latter stages, I think the world cup in Qatar when we lost the France, Harry missed that penalty and we lost, we had, we played a much bit of game in this, I didn't mind going out like that because we went through, he missed the penalty, France went through and they beat us, but for us to go out like we did today, hanging on was a hard run to take, yeah, I mean, so two cool after the game, pretty characteristic

for him, he's pretty defensive, he's proud of the guys, but said this was not, it's not a structure problem, it was not a structure problem, we played maybe our best game, no regrets. Obviously, he's seen things from a different angle and from a different perspective and only he can answer why Saka was an out there and only he can answer why, I'd say, was an out there and Chris, yeah, go ahead, I mean, Chris, sorry to interrupt you, sorry, no,

“I'm like, can keep going, Chris, I'll ask, no, no, no, I mean, look, you know what Chris,”

when you listen to that, when you watch the game and again, it's like a, it's something that we just happened with us before, you know, the way that we kind of go into our show when we're winning, when we should be actually going to try and beat Argentina. And for him to say, he's got no regrets, he's happy to wait to pay one structure problem, it was a structure problem, if you ask me, because we couldn't get out, so if the structure

was to bring under big guys and just defend and then kick it out and let them come back in, if that was the structural game he has playing, then it still didn't work, but if the structure was to get on the ball and play out with nobody up front, I don't know, don't make sense, you know what I mean, it doesn't make sense that that worked because there's not an England plan, it's out there, Chris, that can say, they were comfortable

with the way we played once we scored. Not one, you won't find one, you know, I mean, what we trying to do, we're going to try and do a Mexico City with 10 men, which was an unbelievable feat, what we're talking about Mexico, yeah, we were able to keep them office. But at the same time, we're talking about Argentina and the semi-final of the World Cup, we're five minutes away and it is the extra time, you know, but we're like

five minutes away from 90 minutes in the extra time on top from getting to a World Cup final. And we were hanging on for dear life from the time we scored until the time

they scored. And then once they scored, like Roy said it, Gary said it because Gary never

was beating games with England where he said, this is what happens with us when I played when he managed, when we dropped back, we dropped back and the two schools meant to be the managers as brave. We saw him like I said, it started, it's he's made a brave decision by leaving some very, very talented players back home that may have been able to get on the ball and help us out. He had players on the bench with pace, he had a striker up front,

and I haven't told you that could have been up top, you know, to occupy a Romero and an automendi at the end there, give them that physical challenge, get the ball up there. Maybe we could get some fouls, get the pace of Marcus Rashford up there to maybe get

the balls that could, the second balls and we could play fervor up in the pitch. So it's

very difficult to, to, to digest him saying that it wasn't a structural problem and he has no regrets because if that's the case, then I don't know what we're looking forward to because if I'm really totally honest, if you look, like I mentioned the France in 2022, and if you look like that came out when I was happy, when you look at this one,

end of this tournament and we have probably the best team is in the final and the best

players in the final and they're different ways to have a winning kind of set up for your

“football in international football, I think. What Argentina does that's so remarkable, and”

maybe this is just the way it looks on television. I'm sure a lot goes into his de colonis got these guys where it's like, it's all in service of messy. He's got his body guards. He's got his runners. He's got his guys who have to get on to the end of the football. Everything is in service of a star player, and then with Spain, as Teary on Rea said, those guys are playing like that from eight years old on, you know, they're coming out of

club systems that produce that kind of one touch football, pass and move football. Then you kind of have England that's a little bit in between, right? Like, two cool tries to set these guys up, I think many people have noted that there are similarities between the way he's set them up, and maybe the way our tennis plays Arsenal. It was about control. It was about athleticism. It was about physicality. He left some really, really creative players behind

Adam Morton, Trent Alexander Arnold, Phil Foen, Cole Palmer, and Gives White. Gives White. Did this team almost need to be built more around Jude? You know, I mean, Jude obviously, he and Tucal have this kind of contentious relationship, but in some ways when I watched it,

it was like, Jude was a little bit absent in the first part of the game, and we tried to come

“and I think I think his head went a little bit at certain times, like he got into a messy”

that's frustration, you know? Me and forever, but if you're looking for a way forward, is it? We have to build something that isn't entirely about Jude here. Well, as some listen, Chris, you're saying it yourself, and the answer's there for everyone to see. Listen, we see it with messy. If you've got a player with that capability, and I'm not saying that Jude Berlin is messy by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm saying, Jude Berlin has something, he's got some

star quality, he's got the ability to have moments in games, depending on how he is serviced. You know, if we can get the ball wide, because it was Jude that made the run forward for the ball

to go forward, for the ball to come across into Morgan, what I just across into, and according to

Scott, it was Jude. Absolutely, we should be looking to say, listen, this is the main guy, and we want the main guy up there, we want to get him to ball as often as we can, we want to get the ball into him as often as we can, and we should start, we should start maybe playing through Jude, playing towards Jude, everything should be, you know, like our messes, everything's service, service Jude, so as an e-condance service everybody's because we've seen in the games,

and we're not saying that they're being unbelievable games and unbelievable opposition, but we've seen in those games that he's capable against anybody of grabbing a game by scrub of his neck and running with it, just like messy did today, just grabbing a game and just through his raw ability and just greatness, just be able to win a game for your country.

“And I think that we now have to start thinking about that, because you're looking at Harry,”

I think, you know, I think that Harry would, again, come in deep, you know, I mean, he's coming into an area where, you know, we're getting balls in the box and we're, you know, he's not in there. Yeah, we know that he's capable of dropping deep and then hitting people who are long, but we didn't have the people long, so if that's the case, if you haven't got the the wingers from when Harry drops deep, and then Jude may be filling into Harry's space. And if Harry's

dropping deep and he hasn't got Gordon, he hasn't got Rashford to hit, which we didn't have in the end. Then you may as well take Harry off, take Harry off, you keep Jude on, you put I haven't told the up top, you bring Marcus on, and then you start to get the ball into a situation where, okay, let's get it up top there, let's go and play up there and then we'll go from there. That would have been a better, better, better play. Can we get maybe copy, maybe anyone, maybe could have

maybe taken an anus and off, even though he's at a great world cup for me, behind Jude. You know, maybe you could have taken him off, got Kobe on who can play, if we could, if we could have got the ball down and play, we could then get the ball out to Jude, get the ball into Tony, get the ball in and around Rashford to Sprint. We could have got out of our offer, at least. We couldn't get out of our offer. So at some stage now, especially

with the players that you've mentioned there, we've trained, you know, with Morgan Givesworth, with Cole Palmer, we're folding real ball players. You've got to start thinking about these guys, maybe some of the guys you can serve as Jude. Yeah, you know, obviously Harry, Harry, Harry's still got a part to play. I don't get me wrong. He's still have a part to play, but not the part he's playing at the moment, and especially if you're going to take,

if you're going to take the winters off, for Harry's dropping deep, he hasn't got no one to hit,

different clubs being basically like modeled or emulated by the England national team. So like the way that came was playing is probably not altogether different than the way he plays a Bayern, where he's able to sort of like trade on and off with all these runners and kind of they, they obviously like the German German style football is so fast and everybody's, it's like up and down basketball. You know, and then there's a degree to which there was some very

arsenal-esque like we're going to keep it, we're going to keep it in control, we're going to muscle you that we're going to have midfielders who are pushing into the box. I don't know what

the answer is obviously, but I know that two years ago, Real Madrid looked like one of the best

teams in the world with Jude Bellingham playing essentially as like off the striker but being like primary goal score. And I don't think it's a bad model for them to emulate going forward. And we've got a place for it, Chris, you've got the place that could probably serve as that. When you were watching the beginning of this match and you see how hot it's getting, how early it is, you know, and you know, the ref is getting surrounded. Argentine is obviously trying to

“find the line and they are walking right up to it and they're saying, what's a yellow? What's a yellow?”

And there was one point, I think the announcer said, I think every Argentine player has been warned now. What's that like out there when it's one of those games where it's like we're going to find out how hot it can get out here? Well, that's when you hoping that the referee who knows because we all know what kind of game Argentina would have won. It would have tried to intimidate right from the start, you know, people were talking about, this is one of Messi's favorite referees,

he uses him in email asking these wins out. I don't know. But the thing is is that you know that they're going to do, you saw what they done to Jude first, the suit the first opportunity. You know, you saw what they done to Anderson. He saw everything that they were doing. I think Simione was only playing simply to try and rile somebody out. You know, because I couldn't understand why Simione is playing technically. I didn't think he was good enough to be playing in this team, the way

“this team were playing and I think we saw that in the first half and why he got taken off in the end.”

It's pickford was targeting him with one kick. They were just running right. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. But at the same time, you know, again, they do that to probably to test you, like you're like you're like you're saying their Chris and you're right, they're seeing it and I've far can we go because if we could keep doing this and I still haven't been booked yet, still haven't been booked yet, then you know what I mean? They're going to upset people. I think that

kind of like kind of put kind of got Jude off his off his game for a bit. You know, I kind of disappeared in the game for a little bit and I think that you could see people talking to him, people in his face and that and he was answering, you know, I mean it was and we won't get in a ball to him as often as we could. And anytime he did get the ball, you may try to, you watch them and there's two or three of them coming to try and tackle him and tackle him really hard.

So, you know, it was always going to be a tough game like that from Argentina's point of view and they

played well, they played brilliantly but what I will give them, the credit I will give them and it's a team and a country I've got, I've got a lot of love for but at the same time they are excellent footballers and they know their job, their job is to make sure that we do everything

“to get messy the ball and surround them protecting in every way we can. That's what you see with”

this Argentina's Argentina side because after a while they realized we actually don't need to wind these up and I think that, you know, I mean they're not creating enough, I think we had seven touches in the in the box in the game, I've something like that, it's crazy, I think Argentina 2728 or something. So after a while Argentina didn't need their shitheads or whatever it was, they didn't need to do it, they just needed to play and once they went and go down

we started to see what the world champions are about. Yeah, so maybe that's more of an indictment than anything, is that they were like oh we don't even need to mess with you. Don't need our nastiness. Yeah, I didn't need our shitheads. Oh man, I mean, I, I guess it's very early but do you think the same shit house reworks on Luminium All and Allmo and can they catch that ball? Can they catch up? So those

guys, you know what the thing is, is that I think the Argentina, depending on how the game, the game is flowing and I was playing, that's just naturally in their DNA for that side of them to come out. I think that because there's obviously the history of England. Yeah, I bet they would play that way against Peru, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's just the kind of

thing that is always going to be very frictionous and you know, against England. I think that

against Spain, Spain are going to have a lot of the ball and are very comfortable with the ball. You know, it's going to be a totally different game. But if there's any opportunity where they can,

they will target whoever your best player is and try and get you off your game without a shadow

of a doubt and you can watch that. I could say for for for definite right now that Luminium Allmo will get some form of rough, rough treatment. Sure. It just happens, you know, even though Messi's eyed one, Messi's got a lot of respect and love for him as well. He's a danger to Argentina. No, make sure that I'll try and, you know, try and stop that out. Was it strange? I wonder if you've ever had this experience before because this is the first time Messi's ever played

“England. Have you ever found yourself on the side of cheering against Messi before?”

No. Yeah. No. It's interesting. This is the same thing we had with Maradona. I don't remember too many times cheering against him. But today, even like, you know, see, Messi when Messi was getting angry some of the times. So first time I was angry with Messi. Yeah. Yeah. What are you doing? What are you? I got angry with Messi with some of the times. But yeah, I think that what we learned today is our great years and he's probably is the great

stever in respects of what he made going to achieve. You know, I always have a soft spot for Maradona

simply because I watched him do some amazing things Chris. But like, in watching Messi for the whole of his career, you know, like I did probably with like I watched the most of Maradona's. But watching Messi and the levels that he's continued to reach at 39, he's still doing it. It's special. It's something special. We're watching a real genius of the game. And I'll probably probably the greatest we'll ever see. I don't think anyone's going to eclipse what Messi's doing right now.

Especially if they're gone to witness. You know, and I don't want to say, you know, unfortunately, we couldn't deal with him to therefore we dealt with him in the first half. But it's going to take

a lot to try and curtail someone like Messi when you've got the backup that he's got in Argentina.

It's the whole excellent place. How has this tournament been for you? You've been in New York for the entirety of it pretty much. You've been broadcasting and podcasting out there. And I don't

“have you gotten too many matches at each other for it or has it been mostly studio stuff for you?”

No, no, no. I've gotten into it. I went to a couple of the the Walmart games at the start and I started to I went to France and Iraq. But that was as rained out for a couple of hours and I had to leave. But I've been to a couple of Yankees games. Okay. I went to see New York Liberty, basketball, women WMBA. I've been having a good time doing that kind of stuff really. But I didn't get to see any I didn't get to see any any any football matches. I was meant to go to the

World Cup final in England got there. It would have been a final that we would have went to because ITV was just doing it from the studio that we've got here in Brooklyn. And if England got to the final then we would have we'd have went to the we would have went to the stadium. But like it's been it's been brilliant, man. Yeah. Brooklyn's being great. I mean, I've had a great time around here. It's been like, you know, this tournament definitely has some blackouts. There there has been

some real shames of of when it's refereeing, whether it's everything that has happened with the Iran team or whether it's, you know, like, but as a sporting event and as a moment for people to kind of come together and enjoy sports together, it's been pretty heartwarming. You know, like I was into Philadelphia over the weekend and my friends have a bar there and they were like, it's unbelievable,

“man. Like we would just on a random Wednesday night have 50 Brazilians take over the bar. Honestly,”

only football does that Chris Chris, you know, football in a world cup. This is why when people talking about, oh, they need to bring the world cup every two years, every three years. No, there's such a celebration of football around the world. And obviously everything that was happening at the start with with America, the visas, the tickets, the money, everything was going on, you know, you know, all the negativity in a discourse that's going on around it. You know,

that once the game starts, once the games start, it's going to be unbelievable. Once the fans come, once the fans start to mix, obviously, once we get down to the nitty gritty like with semi-finals, it gets really deep in respects of like the fans and the rivalry becomes really intense. But in the main, you know, I mean, it's just brilliant. Being in and around Brooklyn with all the fans, because we're right closer to added us like fan park right there and everybody's coming there. And

it's just been, it's just been a joy. Yeah, because everybody's just celebrating football and everybody's out there moment. I think that obviously Kate Verdy, what Kate Verdy done, you know, people talking about the expansion and I was diluted it, diluted it, no. What Kate Verdy showed in

if you're given the chance. And that is all, the world cup can give you that. Yeah.

“Well, cup gave us that because I think that if we're going to talk about the beautiful moments”

in the World Cup on the football pitch, then it would be probably Kate Verdy's, Kate Verdy's time in this World Cup, which was magnificent and a joy and it was a credit that they want to credit to the game and this World Cup. Yeah, when you could really tell when that match ended, the way the Argentinian players reacted to the Kate Verdy players, which was almost just like, well, thank you. Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was just like, I love Chris,

can I just say something, I'll just just create investments. I wish that we could have played with the same bravery that we've already played with. If I'm going to tell you honestly, it's an England fan because they pushed the World Cup champions to their limits. It needed everything, it needed all of Messi. Even though, yeah, Messi came to the games, came to the fore today as well. But Kate Verdy, they were breaking and still trying to school.

“You know, again, we could take something from them. You have to be brave. You have to be brave,”

and they were brave. And that's again, well-cup gave them that opportunity and I loved that. And there's plenty of matches that happened over the course of the knockouts, where teams try to play defensive shells and play for extra time or play for pens or what have you, but we're going to remember Kate Verdy. And if that's just about like, I was, I was watching that on my phone, my wife, it was like, is this important? And I was like, it would be the greatest upset

in the history of sports. Yeah, because it was, it was easily, easily, because, you know, Kate Verdy can defeat the World Champions after, you know, after drawing with Spain, you know, I mean, again, playing against Spain and giving Spain the kind of game we've been thinking, oh, my gosh, they're holding Spain out. You saw what Spain done to France, sort of favorites. You know, they held them out and then they nearly beat the World Champions.

We've done that game and it was the easily the best game of the World Cup. Yeah, I was going to ask you if you have like a memory, you think you're going to take it. If it's Kate Verdy or you think it's going to be as techer or what what your favorite moment from this would be, but it sounds like another. Obviously, obviously, because England, England done at any end and they beat them with a 10 man, it was a real, like, tin hats,

kind of like performance from us, you know, dig out, get the boots on and dig in. But Kate Verdy's, Kate Verdy's game against Argentina for me is the best game of this World Cup for me so far. All right, now, let you go, I just want to get your pick for Sunday. You know, something I'm probably going to go with, I'm probably going to go with, with Argentina. Simply because I just feel that they just, they just can't be beat.

“It's something I've seen. If I do it, and you're free, you know, yeah, honestly,”

you just don't just look like they can't be beat and never beat. And if there's going to be a

team that can do it because they can hold on to the ball and maybe create something, then it might be Spain, but I can't look for it in Argentina, Chris. Ian, thank you so much for giving me your time tonight, man. No, it's wonderful. Great scene. You hope to see you again soon over in England. Enjoy some time off after this World Cup. Thank you very much. Chris, thanks for having me on man. I love you.

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FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry entry deadlines prizes and details. All right, Anthony DiBundo is here. Wringer gambling show very often. The Wringer's Philly special. Just watched England versus Argentina. I obviously just talked to the Ian about that, but Anthony and I are going to talk a little bit about the World Cup final. Anthony, did I want to let you get your takes off though about about that England match,

which felt like England thought that match was going to rule last 70 minutes and not 90 minutes and paid for. What did you think, man? I mean, England where we're doing what they wanted to do

It descended into chaos for a good amount of it. Sure. But once you go up one goal, England in the first match of this tournament had a situation where they took a three, two lead and Tuckel said, we are not going to bunker. We are not going to go out playing the old way of England. We're going to go out playing our way and then he fell right back into it. I thought that when he brought on Rashford and Tony at the end,

it was such an interesting, you know, like last ditch gambit to win the match, but showed the kind of attacking creativity and, okay, let's try a different option up front with Kane and Tony and

“use a battering ram kind of. It was sort of absent from earlier in the match. I think they were”

so excited to get that goal. It was such a physical game out there that they just slammed on the brakes and like I've said to Ian, it was just like it felt like he tried to recapture the as tech a magic, but that's not Mexico out there, man. That's the reigning world champions and messy with Leo messy. Yeah, and if you're going to, if you're going to mob messy, he's not going to look to score. He's going to look to find the open man or the man who can get it to the open man and they had

so many chances in that second half. If you, what did you think of Spain and France because I, on one hand, want to do a little bit of back padding because I picked Spain to win the tournament, but I was like, not like that. I didn't, I didn't think that they were going to decisively walk over the tournament favorites in France. The team that everybody had assumed was like a cut above the competition and Spain made them made them look pretty pedestrian and pretty ordinary and

ended to shopps rain in France. Where are you at with this spain team? Is this actually been the favorites all along for you or what do you think about what you're seeing? So the one thing I'll say specifically about this game is that I thought and under discussed topic going in was just how much France had to play in extreme heat the entire tournament. They played all their games outdoors almost all of them in the Northeast and the last three were New Jersey, Filly, Boston, all 90

plus degree get days. Spain meanwhile got to enjoy the air conditioning and indoors, their hottest game was in Los Angeles, so they didn't have to do all of the extreme heat. I do think that definitely made France look a little legier, but ultimately it comes down to the same thing that Spain's been doing to beat France for the last three years. It's like when teams keep the ball

and are daring to possess the ball against France, the shop has never ever coordinated a press,

never ever coordinated a counter press, the sum of the talent has never actually lived up to what they actually are when you watch them play. Like this team is way more talented than Spain,

“if you go down the list, but I think it's kind of a mark on the shop because he won the World”

Cup in 2018 and then said, okay, this is how we do it. We're going to change basically nothing and how our strategy is and the last four international tournaments you could make the case France was the most talented at all four of them and they didn't win any of them in large part because when they went up against Spain a couple of times or against Argentina and the first, you know, hour of that World Cup final, the team that had better structure, better pressing,

better team play, kind of just walked them. Yeah. And that's exactly what when I felt and

look, I went back and forth a lot of people on this. I always had Spain as my favorite. I never cared

that France was running up big scores on vastly inferior teams because of this one matchup, this one thing that Spain had proven and France hadn't proven they could beat. So I was happy to ride with Spain. It was happy that, you know, our friends at Fandel made them an underdog and

“that it was a great day. You know, it's interesting. I think management in this World Cup”

specifically, but an international football in general is such a complicated thing. These guys don't get a ton of time. They're under, which have worked with their players. They're under an incredible amount of scrutiny for every single decision that they make and in a lot of times, a lot of those cases context is kind of removed. You know, like, even some of Tukel's decisions today, while strategically, I didn't agree with what he did when he did it. You know, he had limited

options in terms of guys had injuries. Guys, maybe we're on a yellow card. He was his consa after in the Mexico match. There's all sorts of mitigating factors for why he had to do what he did. And I don't know what was wrong with Bacayosaka. We'll find out, like, in a couple of hours, like, was he not able to play for today or what? But when you look at what Dishamp has done over the last few years, I think, you know, Jonathan Wilson wrote about this in the Guardian. Everybody

is always regarded to him as somebody who's holding France back. And in this Spain match,

you know, Mbappe comes out afterwards and is like, we just, we got it wrong. Like, he put two guys in the center midfield instead of three. And we were outnumbered. He played two

Rabio. I mean, whatever the sort of hindsight that you want to apply to this, Dishamp just

“kind of got it taken out by Dela Fuente. And I think you could probably, you know, I don't think”

Skaloni has like a system that you can really perceive. But he certainly has, like, that Argentina team playing in a very coordinated fashion and among, they share a spirit, you know? And so, there's this ineffable thing with, with international management. It's not like Artetta with Arsenal or, you know, Guardian Ola with Manchester City where you can be like, oh, obviously he's having them do this. And then they do that. And then they do this. It's a lot of it is vibes. A lot of

it is, is keeping those guys in a bubble and, and make sure the noises turn down in the locker room and trying to get everybody rowing in the same direction and all those cliches. But then you, you wind up coming into these high, high leverage matches and one decision or two decisions can really, can really send things the wrong way. And to the credit, like Spain probably plays the most like a club team. If that, you can make that a compliment because club teams get the

“drilled together. They have patterns. I mean, the second goal that they scored against France was a”

textbook definition of, here's, we're going to pass, and we're going to move. We're going to create these triangles. We're going to progress the ball steadily throughout the pitch. We're going to go backwards, to go sideways, to go forwards, to go backwards, to go forwards. We're going to play that one big through ball that breaks the lines. We're going to get the second ball then a little given go, we're in behind Pedro Poros, scores two nil and I was out of my seat, like, holy shit,

what a goal, right? And it was nice because you didn't want them to win with just the one when the, you know, it was a, obviously, a penalty, but a little bit cheap in the way that let me drew it to start the match. So that kind of combination stuff, you rarely saw that from from France in this tournament, as much as they were dominating people, as much as they were playing at an elite

level, you never saw that, but also, it's hard to be critical of to Sean, because it has

worked to such a large extent. I mean, when they're beating everybody so badly, it's like, who do you drop? Do you take out duet? Do you take out them ballet from your team? Do you drop all you say? I mean, all three of those guys and bark a lot, they've all been great players. So it's very hard when you don't really have quote unquote tactics to then invent some on the fly and change it and then play a midfield three. So they played a midfield three and got an

outplayed. We would have come on and said, oh, you put the handbrake on on it. Yeah, but I'm cool.

“I was working so well. Yeah, I mean, I don't think them losing saliva really hurt. I think”

you know, he is widely regarded as if not the best one of the best centerbacks in the world. And, you know, it's funny. It's like the the vibes in a team and in a camp will be so good

until the very last second when they when the season or the run ends and then everybody's like,

the manager was wrong. Yeah. I want to see. I cannot wait to see the post match quotes about to cool. It was the same thing. Repotroutino was the savior of U.S. soccer until he wasn't. And they shot was this sort of, you know, wizard of French football and and finally had learned from his mistakes until he hadn't. Right. And with two cool, at least we could see it unfolding in real time and you're like, this is not going to work. Like, the one issue Argentina has had in this

tournament is they're actually not good at winning the ball anymore without without hacking people and committing murder ball. If you just give them the ball, they're pretty good. Yeah. You know, Messi went out to the white wing and he was just standing all alone out there and they even made a point. Stu hold and made the point on the broadcast. He's like, you know, Messi's not really involved. He's waiting for his moment. And he's just jogging in and jogging in. He gets the ball,

draws two defenders, plays one simple pass, one one. And you're like, wait a minute. Why are we just letting them have the ball? We should at least make them fight to have the ball and whereas with, you know, France, it's like, we can't get the ball off speed. That's a big problem. Yeah. And

then it feels like with France, they never had that answer with England. It feels like they at least knew

what the answer was and it was kind of working. And then they stopped doing it in the name of like this defense of strategy. When the the whole complaint about England pre-tournament was are their center backs and defense good enough to hold up. Then they said, we're going to double down on our defense. Yeah. It makes sense. You have 10 men in the Azteca. It doesn't make sense. When you have 11 men against Argentina. Yeah. And it was, it was strange. It was a strange match.

Like it must have felt a little bit like Azteca to them because that seemed like a almost 70% Argentina. Yeah. That seemed like they were in the Bombanera in Buenos Aires or something like that. That was wild. Maybe that was just the Fox broadcast because they kept cutting to a wall of Argentina fans. And there was not a lot of England fans. It would be Mick Jagger and David Beckham. But they were not showing like a huge amount of England's port. I wonder whether that, I don't

really know how how that's going to translate to East Rutherford and whether like Argentina fans

very corporate and very filled out with people who have had that ticket for however long. And

“I don't know if they can get that kind of support in East Rutherford. But let's talk a little bit”

about Sunday to the extent that we're able to since we only just found out who the contestants are going to be in a couple of minutes ago. This is obviously a like a style make fights thing where if it's a kicking contest and and the refs let Argentina play the way they did today in England up until you know somehow both center backs are on yellows and multiple players are in massive mail-as and then like this they escape. If they let them kick Spain you know I can see this being tight.

And then even if Spain isn't control of the match I am now done doubting Argentina. You know like you know I I I feel like call it a refereeing FIFA conspiracy to give Messi another roll cup on a back-to-back year call it pixie dust that's been sprinkled on this on the side. I don't know

but they find a way to win. They find a way to come back. They're never dead. They seem to play

their best football in the last 20 minutes of the match in an extra time. It's it seems like it should be Spain in a cakewalk but I I don't I feel weird saying that. The thing though is even Spain when they cakewalk people is not like oh wow three four goals look at Spain. You know like Spain wants to control the game to a level that they are not taking a ton of risk and like not creating a ton of chances. I mean let me know all still only has one goal contribution in this tournament.

It's kind of a question every time Pedro Poro chips in Fabian Ruiz chips in against Belgium. Macau Marino comes off the bat I mean they're getting more goals when they're midfielders and their defenders than they are from their actual attackers at this tournament. So you're like okay Spain can keep the ball and can make life really difficult for Argentina to get the ball off them. Like England did today for for large stretches but they can definitely do that. I have more faith

if Spain is playing with a lead that Spain is not going to do what England did today and they're going to keep keeping the ball. Yeah and they're not going to drop and they're going to continue to try to play their brand. Their brand is so established and so effective that it can work. Argentina is a funny team because they've been so bad with leads too. We have this tournament and oh well they play so bad going back to the last World Cup the Copa

like they are bad with a lead. So I feel like this is always setting up for either Argentina's

defending a lead and struggling or Spain is barely holding on to their lead. So either way it's almost guaranteed to be compelling in the last 20 minutes. Yeah I mean with Argentina like all the all the sort of observations I would have and I bet any metrics I could look at like every match they end they end I'm like all these guys are dead. All these guys seem to be crying and praying and sweating they're all they are all in their 30s you know like they all have just been running

for 110 minutes and yet they show up at the next match and start the clock at zero and like they're they're just incredible. They're not at a rumble to be like carrying the previous match into the new one. Spain is giving up one goal in the knockouts. One goal to Belgium otherwise have been an absolute fortress and the fortress is built on possession like you said. There was an amazing clip of Teary Henri on the Fox broadcast after the France match where he

“broke down that I think a passage of play that you were describing earlier and he's like these”

guys have been playing like this since they were eight and they've been playing together since they

were eight. One of the things you always look for when a World Cup comes around when a Euro's comes

around is you're like what is the footballing identity of this country you know like what are these guys want to do how do they want to play. Argentina is going to be physical they're going to be aggressive and then they are going to wait for their moment and then they're going to turn it on and they have the best player of all time to do that with. Spain is going to play largely like I would identify it with Barcelona style of possession football pass and move one touch stuff

and it really is like I've had like all of these semi finals and now this finals I'm like you could tell me so many different variations I'm going to go Spain because it's been Spain for me since before the tournament but it's going to be a fascinating match if they pull out a yellow because bread is brix a guy in the first minute then you know we're going to know it'll be it'll be aluminum on some way shape like he's getting hacked down yes within the first

“that minute yeah tell me if you go it's just going to like absolutely close line um but yeah I just I think”

you're I think I have to be Spain in my head but in my in my experience over these last two weeks

and vibes to what the Argentine's are doing it's like late winds close comebacks one score

“victories kind of thing like the whole bit and and they keep pulling it off they keep pulling it”

off you're like they can't keep getting away with this yeah and then sometimes sometimes you get like an Eagles you know shout out see Eagles are busy but sometimes you know you get a 49ers

have a third down and three to win the Super Bowl they don't convert and now the chief somehow in the

game and you're like well they did it again so I will not cut out Argentina certainly however I do think Spain should is and will be the favorite going in the Sunday we still haven't seen you know like the best of aluminum all yet I keep saying this every game and then we don't see the best of aluminum all and then it doesn't matter but Argentina's wide defenders look really bad today I thought they got lucky a little bit uh in a couple of different sequences where they got away

like they had a note where it was like pickford was like going long to spend and guys going down that right wing and trying to get into one-on-one to the full-backs and draw fowls and golden

“throw-ins yeah and it was just it was obviously a point of emphasis for them and it was working”

for a little while but then the game got too chaotic I you you mentioned Barcelona yeah and I think that's that's actually a good point like you know so yamol, umo, kubarsi, so many of the top players at Spain also play club together Pedro hasn't been starting but like he's in the mix they all play club together and with the with like the identity the La Fuente kind of came out of nowhere when they hired him it was like who's this guy it's like oh he's actually been the Spanish

U-19 U-21 and U-23 games for a while and they've won their entire career yeah yeah you know at the same international level so the symbiotic nature of it all is very simple in a way where you don't get a lot of time to train together but these guys actually kind of do because they play the same style the same brand the same coach for a lot of the youth guys that have come up through the team they the semi finals felt like the right four teams

and if you look at it in a certain way the final feels like the right last two teams because we've

“got the reigning world champions who have also I believe one back to back copo america's right”

yep and then you've got the reigning European champions and I believe holders of the nation's league Spain they lost a Portugal but yeah but yeah these teams actually did play because they have a tournament they have a game every year I don't think anybody ever watches it but the phenolissima or whatever it is where the winner of the euros plays the winner of the copa I think our container won but I also don't think anybody watched the game so did that take place in the

counter to buy or something like that or probably yeah all right well you and I are both edging Spain um I think we're gonna be on bill show on sunday after the roll cup final I think bill's interest might be diminished now that that uh England's not anyway but I'm sure

like seeing messy go for a this age go for a back-to-back roll cup his second roll cup would be

it would be pretty it's musty tv and I think like the world's the biggest accomplishments and sport history if they pull it off yeah yeah I mean like I was trying to like think of cops for this and is it like I mean for messy it was like 2019 masters or something for for tiger but it's like that's it almost feels like that's so much bigger than that yes a way bigger yeah the you've seen the photo right yeah let me know of messy

Lumineum all is a baby it's insane it's gonna be like the photo and I've said this like this could go down if you a Lumineum all has the career that we think he's gonna have it could go down as like the hardest and craziest sports photo in history it's off the field it's so hard to believe it's not AI but it's not I thought it was AI for like a month and then somebody was like brought it up to me and said oh this is a real photo I was like no it's AI they're like no no no it's a real

photo and I like searched it red like four articles and was like okay actually this is a real photo yeah last the couple years ago and I'm like holy you know because they obviously both won the euro and the copo on the same day two years ago and this was Lumineum all's big break out he had just turned 17 now he's you know at the whole age of 19 gonna try to lead Spain to a world cup alongside his teammate Kbarcy who's also 19 yeah they pull this off you know if if

if you're all after getting baptized by messy has like a big game in the world cup final

and then they like topple the champions no matter what happens it's an incredible

incredible story we'll be here on Sunday with Bill to break it all down to bundle thanks so much for joining me man thanks for having me and sorry again CR that's okay a couple years it's been a couple weeks when we start the premier league okay Sean Fantasy is here the big picture podcast the projections newsletter my close personal friend and a guy who has seen the Odyssey twice I've seen

Odyssey on mass this evening I guess if they haven't already made plans they probably should because it sounds like this is going to be a very popular film that's hard to get into if you want to see it in the iMac 70 millimeter that no one wants you to see it in the we both saw it yes and I thought maybe we could you know we're gonna talk a little bit around the movie

“because I think part of the part of the joy of it and the thrill of it is is going in and not”

knowing exactly what's going to happen next even if you're broadly familiar with the Odyssey which I know most of Bill's listeners are like classes yeah I mean usually literate obviously looked at all the translations ahead of time as you have I yeah but I want people to be like holy shit the way we were like holy shit are you podcasting for different listeners right now are you just doing what you do have you given this thought because you just you mentioned bill's

listeners well they are bill's listeners yeah I mean like I think that I think that there's a good venn diagram crossover I don't get a lot of people who are like and who's your boss like

you know good point good point but the Odyssey I wanted to ask you first about the format

actually since we just made a little bit of a of a side about it you know this is something that shook brought up on bill's pot when he went on over the weekend and I thought it was an interesting conversation to have with you about whether or not movie going will increasingly become an eventized as Chuck's word sort of a luxury experience but this idea that to save movies are to keep the theatrical experience propped up we're going to need to continue to

iterate technology and also iterate on the movie going experience I max in 70 especially the

“way we saw it at Universal City Walkout here in Los Angeles but I think broadly speaking for a lot”

of the I max experiences is a very specific kind of like movie going experience are you a fan of it broadly yes just because I like the idea of a filmmaker dictating how you see a movie yeah so in the case of somebody like Nolan or last year of Paul Thomas Anderson or Brie Corbe with the brutalist there were there've been movies in the last three or four years that have been really driven by the filmmaker dictating how you see a movie it's is it on film what format is being used is a

dead format being revived in some way I just think it's good for directors and producers to be driving the technology as opposed to the corporation driving the technology which kind of intersects with like I think a lot of the discomfort around stuff like AI right now so I do

think that it's cool I think Nolan is capable of scaling away that basically no other director

alive is so it's effective but I did listen to what Chuck had to say and I thought there was something interesting in that and Bill has been talking about this for a long time about like how how how much of a premium would you pay to say get a film earlier than everybody else in this case they were talking about you know will there be a limited number of opportunities to see a movie and will be more like going to a concert when I sat down to watch this movie the second time

I was sitting between um Mallory and her husband Adam and Amanda Dobbins from the picture and we were talking about the seating in city walk city walk has jammed a lot of seats into their iMac's 70 room and so it's like going to park leaves for something yeah it's steep and there's not a lot of like room and felicit in front of me was leaning back a little bit he was trying to get the full picture of the odds here what's the most comfortable viewing experience it was very happy to be there

the movie is really special but I thought to myself what I pay 50 bucks to sit in a room like this with one third the number of seats yes because now what you have is you have these really cool iMac's rooms and like regal and an AMC theaters where there's a lot fewer seats and much more comfortable chairs and they all recline and they all have your cup holder and it's a bit more like watching at home i do think this is an under-reported component of why movies are back

a little bit and so that theater in particular which is one of only like 40 in the country that you can see the movie in the form and yeah and it's one of the great screens in America if not the world and it is Christopher Nolan's home court this is his favorite movie theater to go see movies it's still not the best place to sit and watch a movie it's one of those funny things it's like if filmmakers have their like their personal favorites they have their sentimental favorites and

it's like in the same way that Tarantino has a movie theater here the new Beverly which was you used to be a gum on the floor kind of grindhouse exploitation type movie theater and still

has that architecture it's it's narrow the bathrooms are small it's an amazing movie theater but

people fall in love with the places that are special to them obviously city walk technologically is on another level and when you're in it you're immersed in it i've seen i saw obviously the Odyssey and i saw one battle there and both times it took me a little while to get like oriented

“you know and i think that both first acts of these movies i was like struggling maybe to keep up”

to hear a sort of orient myself and there's a lot of it depends on where you sit like there is

you are looking up at tiana Taylor or mad Damon or whoever you're looking at and it's going to be hard to get the frame inside of your like iron and that's pretty different i think from just going to your regular run on the movie theater where most people don't want to sit in the front row

“but you can get away with it you can understand the movie i think in a that's how i saw Malcolm X”

tough beat did you saw Malcolm X in the first row yeah i was less close the last row where you

delayed because it wasn't as big of a deal to you okay um i'm just checking the same bad Rick's yeah yeah it's not an ideal way to watch a movie it's you'll find i think in cities around the country if you're trying to get tickets to go see the movie there are still usually tickets in the first three rows and these theaters because they're not super comfortable i also watched one battle on the third row and it was it's a tough set from that vantage point i would try to get

a good seat and that just seems like a strange thing to have to worry about tag you know because we have this pre-reserved seating we have this sense of like everybody has their favorite place to sit and the movie is being eventized in a way we're seeing it in the right format in the right room

yeah matters so much or at least is being marketed to you as mattering so much that

it's like am i missing out should i not go if i can't get that this thing i want i was kind of curious about is you know will people be like well i'll go see the Odyssey and made August when all of this is died down and i can go see it in in iMac 70 i think most people who are not movie freaks are already living that way you know they're just like i have a very busy life and i'm taking care of my kids or i'm busy at work and i go to three movies a year this if you're a three

movie a year person this is probably one of the movies or short i had a conversation last night with my dad who doesn't go to the movies very often and he was like y'all see tell me everything how was it and again there's usually about one movie a year that we have that conversation what was it last year last year it was um uh bugonia it was probably one battle but because he knows how much i care about these okay um and it was

Leo and you know it felt like more of an event but that movie you know is not nearly as big as the Odyssey the Odyssey is cultural waterfall this very rarely happens where something comes in and

“it's just like this is the only thing that's happening right now i think for the next seven days”

this is the only thing in pop culture that feels like it's going to be happening yeah that's the thing is like today's pot is is Odyssey and World Cup because it feels like that's the two things and it was like you know i there's some relief there's like little things peppering like the ether but like this is these are two really big monocultural events that are happening and it does feel like this is one that just has broken through to like to the people who watch

one two three movies in theaters a year i also think that for those people perhaps they're like not really part of the online discourse about like what is the exact right format i should be going to see the Odyssey in and are happy to go see it unlike a good screen at their AMC or whatever and i think honestly the movie will play that way i mean you and i have been watching movies for all of our lives and we've watched them on bad TVs phones various like

vHS is that weren't good you know like i was rewatching very linden recently and i was you know it's

on a really good disk and so i was like damn this is the first time i seen this movie because i

probably watched like crappy vHS or crappy DVD masters of it um i wanted to talk to you a little bit

“about knowing um you have like a kind of mixed relationship with him and that i think you were”

a little bit skeptical of him earlier and now of kind of like come to the if not good conclusion that he is like in fact obviously very talented filmmaker but is also now kind of the biggest game in town for sure no question would you do you think it's fair to say that he's the definitive filmmaker of this century yes i don't even think it's controversial i don't think it's controversial either i was looking for a more exciting way of describing it beyond that but because this is just like

he is uh he usher's in and in some ways legitimizes superhero movies in OA with Batman begins then he makes the dark night trilogy prints money everybody is sort of on board and it also along with i think ironman but i think more i would say the dark night trilogy introduces this idea that you know you can be like a very serious actor who comes to these things and and between bail and ledger and hearty and everybody would participate in that you know make really good work

while still working in this world he does three wildly ambitious original genre films in ception interstellar and tenet he does two award magnet historical epics and he's shown us a bunch of stuff on screen a black hole a city folding in on itself the sacking of Troy i guess this spoiler for obviously the evacuation of Dunkirk assassins moving backwards through time and space

an indelible moment film history they expect to find one of us in the wreckage brother is an

indelible but it's like lord d_lorn's blowing out the max the sea or just popped out in the b_s_ podcast there and uh and you know our our buddies over at the blank check podcast like to talk about this idea that a filmmaker at some point in his career like he's been building up equity with with Hollywood he makes a movie it's successful and then he has a blank check to do his dream project next wildly the Odyssey kind of is his dream projects because up and high and we're such a runaway

“success maybe against some odds i wouldn't say all you're in a detonator nuclear weapon i think”

people are going to probably check it out but this is his blank check movie uh the Odyssey is yeah and i mean i he's had five blank check movie yeah he's done this over and over

again inception was a blank check movie he made the the Batman films i think in part

to give himself the equity inside the industry to take on more challenging original ideas and has proven over and over and over again that people want these ideas his movies don't lose money he doesn't have a movie that most people consider to be bad i think they've actually been like sort of increasingly going up in box office although give it a tenies kind of go and then tenic came out during covid but i don't know what do you think it says about our film

going moment and our movie making moment that he has kind of emerged as this figure ahead of of what remains of Hollywood i think he is it's all related to what you were asking about with formats because he is an event filmmaker he's a grand stage director and we're at a time of fractured attentions and a lot of alternatives to movies and there are fewer tickets sold to movies now than there were ten years ago fifty years ago a hundred years ago and so in order

“to get people interested in going out to the movies you need to do something special and it seems”

like every time he steps up to the plate his intention is to do something special i'm mixed on some of his most beloved movies and there are some of his movies that are not as popular that i think are among his best but it's not only worth paying attention to like he demands deep attention oh my god he didn't have a scholarship yeah and i think that his super fans find that rewarding and his casual fans are at least willing to have a conversation about what they just

watch yeah and that says a lot i think that you can't underestimate how willing and quickly we how how willing we're quickly able to pivot away from what we've just done right now yeah you know what i mean like the minute a movie is over people take out their phones and they're like oh who do i have to text there's something about the movie yes and his movies just insist that you just sit there for a minute think about what you just saw

respect the scale i i really have liked the last few movies and i've been trying to think about why the the that you know don't practice some extent but really ten it up and hammer and this film

“have resonated so deeply with me and i think it's because he changed editors in general for”

lame as his editor now and with Jennifer lame he's changed his filmmaking style it's not a subtle change he's using images from all different parts of the timeline of the movie earlier and later in the film and he's using this kind of recall style that i think is i don't know if it's some

it's not revolutionary it's something you can find in experimental filmmaking in the 1960s it's

something that you can find in european cinema in the 70s but it is a very sophisticated idea of filmmaking that he's putting in blockbusters and i really really like how he's doing it and he's doing it again in the Odyssey in a really audacious way and like this is something also that great filmmakers do is that like they keep stacking on top of their style over time yes so you get more and more out of every movie and then you think about how they're all connected to each other

over time and whether he's improving or not improving and he is right now in that sweet spot so one of the things i didn't really think about was that don't Kirk is his tenth film and it's like since done Kirk i think he is sort of moved into this you know i know that the introduction of gentlemanly and happens on i think on tenet on tenet tenet certainly introduces this cutting style that is essentially i don't even know how to describe it because one of the

things that i don't think he gets enough credit for is how unconventional his movies are um even in the Odyssey one of the things that struck me is how little breathing room there is like there isn't a lot of like guy goes over to a window and stairs out and says well the Spartans may come one day he doesn't hold a shot for more than fifteen seconds and some of that is form in function right because the i-max camera the magazine doesn't run that long so he doesn't get these

long takes that maybe you know we're accustomed to and maybe our tv watching brain especially is accustomed to like watching people in interiors and a very conventional kind of like master one or one or cutting style and you're right like gentlemanly him and christopher no one

scenes seem to be already in media res when we're joining them you know like which is not that

different than like how Michael bay cuts but it is given this almost avant-garde polish to the way no one doesn't and the material is just much more serious yeah you know it's not like boom boom explosion onto the next thing like like like you don't think revenge of the fall in his series it is to me yeah and i take it seriously but uh it's just if you're making up and highmer yeah you and even if you're using a a frenetic cutting style it doesn't change the

fact that it's a story about one of the most consequential people that's 20th century and so using tools that are best understood as like action movie making tools for Homer

“it it this is a new thing um it is it is an evolution i think of filmmaking style”

in a way that i find really exciting and then i think something is being overlooked i think people have cited that something has changed a little bit in recent years um but for something like the Odyssey you know you talk about how it's kind of compressed because there's just so much incident in the store sure you just kind of have to go from place to place but what makes it exciting is not just that feeling of like oh the cyclops sila and corribous the sirens these are

things that if you know even just a little bit about the Odyssey you know this stuff is coming in the movie it's what he puts in between all that stuff it's all the spackle it's all the you know all the the binding of the story which is all the stuff that is unexpected it's going into the past it's shifting the perspective of how the story's being told flashes of the future yes also the past

“but you know but it doesn't have the kind of what i think people maybe rejected a little bit about”

Dunkirk which is the discombobulation of time and how like it was people maybe felt manipulated like by certain elements of the way that he plays with the timelines and Dunkirk although it's you know certainly like i think it's pretty legible once you've seen the film to go back and be like oh yes that's him flying over but you know that day um i think it really works with the Odyssey we're sort of obviously staying away from getting to into the weeds with Odyssey but like this is almost an

inversion of what happens with Oppenheimer I understood why Oppenheimer was made the way it was because that is essentially with the exception of the explosion the tab the Trinity test is going to be this like super dry um procedural kind of dense you know story about a guy who has an idea who's running across the globe to try and chase this idea and then is drafted into service of his you know nation do so and it almost suits it because you're like okay let's pop all this up let's

prop all this up and make it a legal thriller and make it a military you know like Tik Tok the Odyssey you would think is like well this is this is the story right this is the greatest action

story ever told this is the most amazing adventure ever told this is what all the stories are based on

“all you have to do is get out of the way but he actually is like no because of all the context around”

it because it's like classical because it's confusing because people aren't going to know Spartans versus the Trojan versus the Greeks and everything they could they're going to have to like get pushed into this like white water rapids of this story and I think it actually really works in Odyssey but it is like you're watching and you're like as move is going to make a billion dollars probably and be the biggest film of the year probably and it's kind of weird it's a weird movie it's very weird I mean

there's other choices that he makes it is an adaptation I mean there are things that are left out there are things that are changed yeah there's a lot of time spent in the in the story of the Odyssey kind of pointing out what a sort of arrogant figure that that Odysseus is and sort of like what a flawed character he is and you know rereading it in over the last few months like I've come away feeling like he's kind of the original flawed protagonist yeah and the original draper yeah

on the 60 he is like he's a he's a bad TV character and but no one cast Matt Damon who's kind of fundamentally decent and just one of the easiest people to root for in all of movies and he's played shit heels he memorably played a shit heel in interstellar but you're just kind of with Matt Damon it's part of what makes him a good star is you're rooting for him and so like even that kind of complicates the character of the movie where it feels like a more

traditional adventure hero story but he's doing all this avant-garde work around it so you're like

you feel safe even when he's taking chances yeah and the same is true of Oppenheimer like the first

20 minutes of Oppenheimer I remember seeing it with you and Andy and then the first 20 minutes I was like oh this is something different this and special like this is very special because he's just dispensing with the most boring part of the movie where you have to like show him as a child and show a

the first 25 years of of Oppenheimer's life with this dramatic score and this flashcutting style

that he was doing and he was just like that stuff's boring I'm gonna make it as exciting as I can and then I'm gonna go to the next thing yeah and the same thing is happening in the Odyssey you know you do get this kind of extended prologue where you're you know back on um back in Homer's politics and in Odyssey's palace and Ethica and then after that it's just like you're off to the races and we're going through all these crazy incidents so yeah it's like it's a gutsy adaptation

if you don't think about it too hard it's it's just an exciting action movie it back to the tenet pieces of like just don't think about it feel it you can watch his movies and be like oh I didn't actually hear much of the dialogue or like only picked up every other line or something like that

“which I think people with extensive live music experience will probably have that experience”

you know Odyssey just like made you with every one of his movies but you can also just sort of marvel at what he's doing you can just look at the landscapes and you can look at the sequences and the set pieces and you can also just get the feeling from like when you see Berenthal or when you see repeating yongo like you're like I know what's happening right broadly speaking I know what's happening who do you think are the his forebearers because you ask that really provocative question about

like who's the director of the century so it's like probably the previous 25 years is probably Steven Spielberg yeah I was actually like kind of looking at this because there's the argument that we could have about like who has had the most significant contribution to filmmaking in the 21st century

and you know you get into PTA I finally enough you know Dunkirk was no one's 10th movie

one battle is PTA's 10th movie I think PTA has a little bit of a harder time putting these movies together you know one battle obviously had to caprio and Warner Brothers behind it and that was his most expensive film it doesn't seem like he's going to make something even bigger next

“but who knows I'm not sure uh Squarespace he's had a remarkable 21st century but I think”

he almost exists in the same way that Spielberg does to me of this sort of like you've already been minted you know and like we're just so happy you're you're grinding these out but you know between shutter elevator shutter island departed wolf of Wall Street silence Irishman killers of the fly remote and that's his 21st century and and critically claimed almost all the way down the line but it doesn't command audiences the way the Nolan does I mean that's really the thing the

Nolan does maybe you could say didn't even know it was coming up behind him a little bit that is that would be the sort of most obvious contender in this in this arena and it's interesting to watch those guys do things that feel more like Cecile be the Miller John Ford than like Martin Scorsese or even like Steven Spielberg you know Steven Spielberg and it in his prime was a tremendously personal filmmaker you know like most encounters of the third kind that's a

deeply personal movie yeah I do think the Christopher Nolan sees a lot of himself in the protagonist of the portrays there's a reading of the Odyssey that it is straight up about a Christopher Nolan I think it's a reading of the Odyssey that people are going to see when they get to the end of it that is like oh this is about the world's right now a very much 100% we can we can talk about that after people have seen yeah but I I'm kind of fascinated by those two directors

have been they'll move as well deciding to take on a bond movie a really spending a lot of time thinking about not just how the audience will react but what we'll get the audience interested and I don't think that's Corsese and Spielberg and some of those guys who came to came to fame in the 70s you know Copa as among that cohort you know a lot of that generation is is is is dying off honestly but those guys who are still making those films they're thinking about themselves

I think first yeah I wonder whether or not that Spielberg era where it's Jurassic Schiller saving private Ryan and AI is probably the sweet spot of what is something that's going to bring everybody here but also will give me an opportunity to express myself about my own personal kind of passion points right and for Spielberg that season roughly in his early 50s which is the time the Christopher Nolan is right now yeah that we should do like a larger thing about like

how old these guys are how much juice they have what they decide to do once they're like no one's gonna take this away for me so what I would but I still want to be relevant yeah it's weird like obviously I've I've gotten a lot of shit perhaps rightfully so for my inception takes over the years

but one of the things I always felt watching it I was like this is a little bit of an immature movie

like it's a movie made by like a filmmaker who has incredible skill but like maybe hasn't fully like baked their stuff and one of the reasons why I've gotten so interested in what he's doing lately is I feel like he isn't total command like he is the the absolute mystro of movies right now

“and the thing that you should we should probably just say with the honesty too is like I can't”

remember the last time a movie like this was even attempted like that it's it's seven countries

and every single actor is in and this has just been like this is the craziest thing I've ever done and will ever do and you know Damon's done basically a five month press toward this point you know that this trailer came out late last year they have more less been on the road promoting this on and off since then and Damon's stories about making this movie in about like no one walking up to him with an iMac's camera with uh wait then Hoytima and being like

okay you're gonna walk over there and turn and you're gonna look and he's like I look and the the fleet is there like they he's got four boats going across and he's like there was no signal that that was gonna happen he's just like in control of like the entire game it's pretty remarkable

“like you have to doff your cap to him just demanding that this this be what the movies are”

like that that that is what is really special to me about is like we're in a time where it's been a very cool movie year and there's been a lot of talk about that on bill show on our shows about house you know movies have juice this year I don't know if they're like back back back the way that they were in 1997 but they have juice and the only way that that continues is if you have

powerful people demanding this kind of thing yeah like you have to say I want to do the biggest

thing you're willing to attempt and I know that most studios my talk to the people who work at studios they're like we do want a filmmaker we want a visionary we want a person who we can use to sell and market the movie and who also is capable of going to the heavens with anything they try to make yeah I do think Kubrick is is basically the closest comparison point we have where it's somebody who is working at the forefront of camera technology and is so obsessed with

how the movie is being made and the way it which it's going to be seen he

“perhaps perhaps even perhaps he's certainly a more I think complicated and intellectually stimulating”

and probably unknowable filmmaker the known as but that that's the comparison point like Spielberg had it has people kind of in his pocket at a couple of points in his career but almost sometimes like feels like I feel like we're doing the book of basketball pyramid right now well I just try to find like I'm trying to like appreciate the moment we're in because I don't think it's going to last forever for a variety of reasons and and so this guy going on this run doing a superhero

trilogy and then being like I'm going to do like I'm going to bring a regional genre movies back I'm going to do I'm going to orchestrate massive historical world historical and important moments and then I'm going to do like the Odyssey is it feels Kubrickian yeah well you know Kubrick

one of the great sadnesses of his career and for those of us who love his movies was he never

got to make Napoleon yeah right and this is kind of Nolan's Napoleon it is like the most epic scale story that he could possibly tell given the circumstances in the industry at the time and that movie falling apart there's an amazing book that is just the entirely about the failed production that features the screenplay and all the story boards and everything that he prepared to do that the reason he made Barry Lyndon is because he wanted to make a film of that era

in the aftermath of Napoleon falling apart there are some differences between Kubrick and Nolan though like Kubrick to me is much more psychologically probing and daring about what it means

“to be human like his representation of violence and sex is way beyond I think anything known”

is no I mean that was sort of funny I was rewatching segments of Nolan's movies last night and it's it's remarkable how little blood is in Dunkirk you know it's for all the shooting in tenet very little viscera like he it's why I say it says it'll be the million john four because more of a classic system that way he's like he's a very old school thinker and filmmaker

and you know he has his uniform whenever you see him he's always sipping tea he has like he has

personified himself in a very smart way he casts actors kind of dressed like him and look like him he does and I'm you know you can also say hitchcock is probably a clear kind of inspiration in terms of like what does it mean to be a Christopher Nolan movie yeah like a Stanley Kubrick movie means a lot of different kinds of things one of the great things when you watch his like highlight reals of his movies is like they all look different all the protagonists are kind of different

there's a kind of an intensity and a meaner but they all are different in a specific way they're all different mill use um Nolan no one is working for the masses like and not in a bad way um Kubrick was successful commercially but not like Nolan I mean Nolan engineered up and hammer to a billion dollars that's the craziest fucking thing that's happened and this is he I'm trying to think of like you know Nolan is obviously a huge fan of Michael man dark night is hugely influenced by heat

and man has this period where he's doing lastimo heekins is very successful romantic epic a certain colonial times um then you have you know heat you have uh the procedural courtroom

camera you know cinemat cinematography wise collateral and you have Ali all kind of in this mix

but those films are not making those were not like the central movies of the year that they were released you know largely you know they were very well regarded and and had it obvious converts like me among them but like they're not like stop everything else we have to talk about the Odyssey for a month I feel like also um movie culture has mostly been behind man where you know heat was a popular movie upon its release but it was not identified as what would

“become one of the most influential films than the 1990s it just it just was not and I think the”

good works that you and Bill Simmons have been doing contributed to that but um there's just been a slow and steady movement toward it's overwhelming power this is something that like Chuck joke to out with Bill on Sunday as well the idea of it being overrated now after being underrated for

so many years I don't think there's no like waiting to talk about Nolan's influence you know there's

no like we don't have to wait around to think about the depth and and reach of interstellar like interstellar was a massive hit upon release people who were 11 years old who saw it when it came out it became one of their most favorite influential movies still like the most significant like thing I noticed about modern movie culture is that like it's not all about us and going when we we had a chance to go to this movie theater in London the Prince Charles where we got to

post the screening of a fan and thread but I believe like after fan and thread they were doing a midnight screening of interstellar this a couple years ago but I think this is still the case and the line was down the block and it was all young people and part of it was like we're gonna bring like drinks in and like we're gonna have like a great night watching interstellar take a gummy in like whatever but I think that has become like what we think of Jurassic Park.

I think yeah the historic part thing it's ET I think it's those movies that when we were kids that like Kate Frazier thinks interstellar is like one of the best movies ever made and he's

“you know he's right like for for for tape or him that's what the matters you know what I mean like”

and that that that's something that like I guess Kubrick did have that you know like as he did have well I saw Clockwork Orange and it changed my taste forever and I thought about movies differently forever but it's interesting to have now three generations of Nolan fans I mean that's really what we're aware of well ever start to see or if we've already started to see and I just have picked up on it like people making movies in his style because they're very hard to imitate

they're very difficult to finance if you're not him so it's it's I wonder when there will be something that we'll see I suppose you could try to mimic the Jennifer Lame Nolan cutting style I wouldn't try I would I would also imagine you would get noted to death by the studio if you're like hey it's my second movie but I've decided to cut it the way Christopher Nolan cut opnheimer it could I mean it can be done it's just it needs to be the right material and the right

skill set um Jennifer Lame you know she's an Oscar winner because of her work on on a Nolan film quite a bunch of on Høytsima is an Oscar winner because of his work on a Nolan film Ludwig Ernst and we have mentioned him he's now the composer of the last few films that he's made his

work on the obviously is incredible yeah and those people are best in class and they're all

working with the director who's at the absolute forefront of the industry and the form so you could try to imitate it I guess it's not you're not going to have $250 million you're not going to have his vision and you're not going to have all these people who know how to execute

“yeah so it's challenging I think it's really more like feel like what feeling does a Kubrick”

movie give you or what feeling does a Kubrick or Nolan movie give you and then what do you do with that and how does that inform and and influence people 20 years from now I think that the differences is that you can still watch Kubrick movies and it makes you question things about existence and when you watch Nolan movies I think you think about the Nolan movie you just watched yeah I feel like it's a little bit I this is no knock against Nolan but like I was watching

we we did an event where we presented ten it up in Toronto last week and so I watched ten it like in pieces a few times and I started to just realize like all I was thinking about was ten it and trying to solve ten it and trying to figure out what he meant to do here with ten it and not time that's kind of weird what if we could go backwards what would we do and what if the past was trying to kill us and what does that mean it was a very like when you take your head out of

the like the visor you're like oh okay like there's a whole world around here I agree with you I do think that the Odyssey is is a movie that does this really I think it's one of it's one of his only movies that I immediately was like what is this really about um and not how does it fit together because I already knew the story and so that's one of the advantages of this movie is because you are likely to know the story or at least parts of the story and because of the conclusion

which is thrilling is so classical you don't have to worry about like how it all fits together or whether it makes sense or not you have to think about why he wanted to make it and what it means

in there for sure and I think Oppenheimer had that and I think Dunkirk was more of like a

“love letter to a dream of collective responsibility and I think honestly he's probably been”

that is echoed in the Odyssey the idea of what we have and what we could lose and all these things are occurring motif in conversation during the Odyssey's civilization yeah how do we get back to civilization how do we rebuild how do we become human to each other again and what do you do if you break the golden rule exactly I wanted to ask you a little bit about you know we we

grew up reading William Goldman and he was so amazing writing about movie stars and what they

can do for movies and what movies can do for movie stars and you know tragically I think Heath Ledger would have been the greatest example of somebody who's worked with Nolan then set his career on a completely different trajectory think about just him appearing in other Nolan yeah I mean you can you can fantasy cast him into almost every movie he's made sense probably would have been Odysseus no question yeah or could have been Odysseus absolutely I I did you know this cast is

incredible several people stand out in it but it does feel like he is kind of got almost a close circuit now and I don't know that like when I see somebody in a Nolan movie they're their career changes necessarily I suppose I suppose patents and intent like I started looking at him a little bit differently after that film but what do you think about what happens to actors when they go through no one's school well there's this great story in her buddy Zach Baron's profile of

sort of the making of the Odyssey and GQ where he talks to Patinson and Zach had had written a piece about patents and before and they clearly have a comfort with each other and patents and was like he recounted getting the phone call from Nolan about making the movie and patents and was like wow you're making the Odyssey that sounds awesome I can't wait to read the script and Nolan said you're the only person that has to read the script everybody agreed right away yeah and you know

it says something funny about patents and who seems like a bit of an odd ball in a very charming way

“yeah and it says something I think about what Nolan means to actors that it's not just that”

that they know the materials gonna be good and they want to work with him but that being in a Christopher Nolan movie is the biggest thing you can do it's the biggest thing you can do and you know Matt Damon's already appeared in in his films and half the way he's already appeared in his films and you've got this long himish Patel plays a big part in this movie he was intent it yeah there's a series of actors he's got a little bit of a company going a wrap absolutely and you've got all these

actors who want to step up but then you have a couple of new people who were very big you know you've got Shirley's there and you've got Tom Holland you've got people who haven't worked with him before who are you'd be stupid to turn down the part in the movie even though like Shirley's part is not in that big that's pivotal but it's not that big even though she's one of the five biggest female stars certainly over the age of 30 and Holly right now sort of the funny thing about the way his

movies are are working these days is that obviously killing Murphy and Downey or huge parts of Oppenheimer but so it's been he's after he but only for part of it and so is Matt Damon but only for part of it and so it's Josh Hart and it but only for part of it you don't get the usual like I started here and I ended here with no one usually I you're like I'm here you know yeah there's usually one handsome white guy sometimes it's John David Washington but it's

mostly one handsome white guy and then everybody else around them are just much more famous than the actor you would expect to find in that part sure there are some exceptions like I love John like was on my own this movie yeah such an inspired choice to cast him in this part but that's that's not

common you know like Tom Hardy's playing the third lead in a section Michael Kane part of this movie

right like was on yeah it's a very good call I am I am veteran steady whatever I need to do here you I'm off book you're not gonna have to worry about exactly point the camera at me it works and and have gravitas you know and and and I and I fit it and even though you wouldn't think Tom like was on the immediately for the Odyssey as soon as he's on screen you're like oh yes you were in Baz Lerman's Romeo and Juliet yeah you you know exactly how to do it's a modern

telling in the ancient tale qualified actors you know like whatever stage it is like you could do this

“yes yeah I think obviously this question is leading to Tom Hardy because”

he will probably be the performance people debate the most I've imagined I thought it's quite good not at least the fact of part of the movie for me yeah telemicus is

the character he's playing and it is a it's a tough role because you're just like basically like

asking people what to do for two hours and 45 minutes um but it'll be fascinating to see if this puts him on Matt Damon from age 30 to 55 trajectory or if he's like you know they don't

conversation is about the choices that people are making and that no one keeps making interesting

“choices for himself he keeps pushing himself to do bigger things and more interesting material”

even if it's the oldest material in the world and in that same Zach Barron story there's a lot of conversation with Tom Holland about how his eyes were opened to what a movie career could be by working on a Christmas movie and that he demanded that the production of the new spider man movie not only be pushed back but work differently because of how he watched Nolan work and now the big thing is just will Tom Holland make better choices. I love the idea of him

hanging out with Robert Pattinson. Robert Pattinson makes the drama yeah and and good time Robert Pattinson's fearless for an actor as as handsome with the origins and finally he's like a guy like this is a fucking mark yes I want to just do interesting stuff like and once I have a good time you want to be now crucially he's playing Batman and he's like yeah that'll pay for everything for the time. Well Tom Holland already has that he has spider man and it sounds like

he wants to keep being spider man so if he does what are you doing with your your calling

“when you're not spider man right and that's what makes great stars now because you do have to”

have this kind of linchpin thing and the Odyssey doesn't come around very often in fact it almost

never comes around in fact you know this has really never been adapted before parts of the

Odyssey adapted but it's crazy to think I mean Nolan described it as a stunning gap in movie history that this story has never at scale been fully adapted. I think we could do it I think that's what it was I think this is now is the only time that it could have happened but as far as the actors go yeah I mean I hope Tom Holland makes good films I'm not I think we just need Tom Holland to be engaged with the with the idea of making good movies because Hollywood essentially functions when

Brad Pitt and George Clooney and Matt Damon and Tom Cruise are like I want to work with the best filmmakers and I want to give them what they need and I'll I'll put my name up there to do it and we don't have a ton of new movie stars you know I mean there's a lot of people people like a lot but one of the things I really like about Zendaya and I hope Tom Holland falls suit is that she's like I may be Matt wildly famous and and vaguely unknowable but just absolutely adored and have like

up complete 100% approval rating but I'm gonna do you for a season three and I'm gonna do the drama and it's gonna be it's gonna push up against like the kind of edges of what people expect from me they serve each other taking on audacious memorable stuff makes film makers more successful and makes actors more interesting so you know we can bang the drum all day and who's listening at this point you think Zendaya's listening to this episode I hope she's doing right now Zendaya is she

in the past it was the episode you know she's doing the dishes well she's probably at various audacious premiere do you think she has her AirPods in during Wimbledon matches while listening to you she's like when they're gonna talk about it so really see ours hosting the bill Simmons podcast what the I was hoping for a deep dive on the bird feeling um last couple of questions one is that you know you're gonna do a pod about this we're the manda we're gonna pod about it on the big picture I'm

sure that won't be the last two pods you do about the odyssey yep you did you know an extensive amount of potting about like one battle like their movies that come along every once in a while that feel like you can't talk about them enough does this as it text feel like one of those I that's a great question I've been turning that over in my mind just thinking about what we're gonna do on the show for the next few months um it didn't intoxicate me in the same way that one battle there but one battle

was very personal for me not just as somebody who um it was obsessed with PTA's movies for so long but what's in the movie hit at a very specific time in my life and that's specific to me and I'm

“just only talking about what what kind of touches me what moves me I think the Odyssey is a more”

universal film will be seen by way more people will have a bigger box office I don't know

having seen it a second time where it improved as a movie for me but I don't know if it has that same

like you gotta go again feeling some of it but I think I I can't wait to go again because almost all no one movies when I first get out I'm like okay now I can breathe maybe a better way to put it is like you'll go twice but will you go three times sure and and most films that become mega mega successes you know your Barbies that means it's like it's a party and people are going two three four times right um Marvel movies were like that two three four times you got to see it two

three four times apparently obsession was like apparently what um the Odyssey isn't a party it's quite a serious movie it's quite an intense one yes and at the end of it you're like oh I went through the ringer on that so I don't know I mean it's it's it's it's an awards contender for sure um it's fascinating to think about him pulling the copula and going back to

and then does the exact same thing that's in play it's not it's not impossible to imagine a world where

the collective Hollywood and international filmmaking world says like well you're just a guy right now yeah you know you're at the absolute top of the mountain then you decided not to come down after hop and hop and hop. In fact you you somehow built more mountain on top of the mountain and so I could see that being like a nine month runaway of discussion well it's going to be interesting too because there you know the Oscars have I mean they expanded to 10 films because of dark night right and

since then there has usually been you get your token kind of blockbuster that gets nominated but then the really like the conversation is between these three or usually two films that everybody has kind of decided it's between these two and I'm not really like as well verson like what the Oscar films might be but you know it's going to be weird if it's like the Odyssey versus Fjord you know I mean it will be yeah you know you've also got to consider it

it'll also be projectile marion do part three and there will be big movies that will be sitting

“alongside of it and I think that actually helps the artist oh for sure well because doing part three”

is probably going to rock but from what I've heard it's not as epic as part two and projectile marion which is a very good movie but feels small compared to the artist for sure like the tomato yeah so that the the it's Titanic nature and it's it's cosmic significance you know it's all about the gods and fate power and choice huge ideas I think it's going to stand up pretty well now whether I'm just Chris Nolan want to do the Oscar campaign in the same way for another six

months and taking away from working another project I don't know well that's yet to be seen well thanks for doing this with me so is this a permanent thing I don't think so no yeah I think that we've gotten some like already activated bill vacation texts okay hey like let's do this in the coming weeks so I think he's he's back it's coming back are you what is this making you think about for your long-term future um well it's pretty fun to have like any topic beyond on the board right

wow what it is right so does that will this will this auger the CR show no I could never I could never

“I think the streets want it yeah but like I I like to see our show is all the shows right”

that is the business model right yeah yeah I am I'm so fascinated by bill's decision to do this and he he he told us a few weeks ago that this was something he had been thinking about yeah and bill's a student of late night television he really understands his history and he's very influenced by it and some people install guest hosts with confidence and some do it with anxiety you know speaking of Odysseus the ultimate act of hubris on the reapex is to say like I'm flying so high

that I could start looking for a little sunlight on the baby birds yeah who do who would you from the ringer universe most want to see in the guest hosting chair here yeah twenty buns yeah yeah very buns it's time I do want honestly like one of the most sincere and genuine sports lovers I've ever come across and a delightfully human being like love sports the way like a 1987 sports illustrator right or who's just like I like the world cup and tennis yeah well around it well

it loves baseball yeah yeah I do really really really want one cousin salad so without him yeah yeah just to see what kind of I think that would be mayhem he may cause his gives him in their relationship if that happened okay but he's the one true true like salad would be the one who planned

“for weeks to just do stuff that drove bill insane that's what I want and epic pack all his”

holy cross roommates on to like talk about him boy wow that was your first blue boy big dream you know

I did have a couple of of select guests ask out that got you want to make sure I asked you I remember I'm to come on this podcast not personally but we made in treaties okay and he just has not you know he is was was available and what would you guys have discussed um wellness I think and uh fill it off your restaurants I would recommend some spots you might have some spots to and then we asked so you thought but birth all was not able to make the schedule when is it going to happen

I don't know mental ass come come through is he ducking you no I think I think it'll I think all happened eventually but like you know I do think that the the the guessing is titillating you know when you're just like I just call anybody right well apparently not anybody do you think you're here oh so I see fucking all that time do you think deep down burnthals mad no did you think he was mad like

wing Jenkins thing and he's like love those guys do you think he was I don't want to get into

“thing here but what do you think I think I think he probably likes the pod okay okay I don't know”

what context he's heard it is somebody send him that and he's like huh okay that's pretty funny

what's his favorite episode jaws too yeah probably he likes it what is a trim star um all right

we'll get out of here I got to let you go um thanks to Sean Finiss so you can hear him talking more about the Odyssey on tomorrow's episode of the big picture I'm gonna go on Monday's episode

“we'll talk um let's rank those Nolan movies where does the Odyssey fit in that's what I want to do”

yeah it's hard to say right now but I think top five for me well let's not spoil that podcast

let's just give me a broad idea thanks for coming man thanks buddy all right thank you so much to Ian right thank you so much to Anthony DiBundo and of course thank you so much to Sean Finissie

“you can listen to Ian on stick to football and crossways you can listen to Anthony DiBundo”

on the ringer gambling show and you can course listen to Sean Finissie on the big picture I've been Chris Ryan I still am Chris Ryan I will be back here on Sunday night with Bill and with DiBundo to talk about the world cup final uh and thanks to Gahal and Chris and everybody who made the show today talk to you guys soon have a great weekend [Music]

must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus in president DC Kentucky or well and game problem caught 100 gambler 1-800 by reset call 88-77777 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland hope is here visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support mess chusets or call 877-8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 877-770-787-867