The NBA Mega-Redraftables (2012 & 2013 Combined!) With J. Kyle Mann and Joe House, Plus Portland vs. “El Cheapo” for the Blazers With Justin Verrier

a new rewatch most coming on Monday, Calbrant and I did karate kid two.

“A way better movie than I think it gets credit for, but more importantly the gateway for us”

being able to do a karate kid three later in the year, which is the funniest movie of the 1980s when I became, I think it was late '80s. So, karate kid two, you can watch that Netflix. You can also watch speed on Netflix and August, and that's important because the next rewatchables will be the re-speed.

Speed was one of the first episodes we ever did on the rewatchables.

We'd four people and I think it was less than an hour, so we needed to redo this. We blew out speed. It's the OG crew of me, Sean Finishing, Chris Ryan. So that's a week away, and you can watch speed anytime you want. Coming up on this podcast, it's evergreen content time.

Let the hell else is going on, other than the baseball trade deadline, I've been watching a lot of red socks, I've been enjoying the red socks, but really nothing's going on. So it's the perfect time for the first time ever NBA redraftables. We combined two drafts, and we had a mega draft of 2012 and 2013.

“That's what being Jay Kyle Man and Joe House, and then I brought in just a barrier for a very”

special one question, mailbox segment about the Portland Trailblazers who are in flux all of the Southern Portland, we're going to explain what's going on there, and how El Chipo factors in to all this. That's all next. We'll take a break and our friends from ProJum.

This episode is brought to you by SAP. Hello, midsize business. We see your big ambitions, but how do you achieve the wins you want when your technology is holding it back? I wonder, well, how about SAP Grow?

As built to grow with your business no matter its size, with AI embedded at its core, working across every system, all ready to go from day one, so you can hit the ground running. With SAP Grow, AI Cloud ERP for any size business. All right, we have done some redraftables on the Bill Simmons podcast. We've done everything from 1997 through 2011.

We did a couple other ones as well. 18. We did the COVID draft 20. You can find a lot of these on the Book of Askable Podcasts as well.

We have never combined two drafts, and Joe House is here and Kyle Man is here.

Here, combining the 2012 and 2013 NBA drafts because both of them are terrible. Even when you combine them together, you get only six all NBA guys. You only get three guys who made my top 100 revised pyramid that nobody has seen, but me in House. Only nine guys want to title before them, where KCP is easily crowded or in snow.

You have some iconic bus. You have two of the three worst drafts of the 21st century back to back. You have 14 guys who put a combine 20k minutes. You're 20 guys who started 400 plus games and really House, the only major thing of this was the last draft diary ever was 2012, and then I was on the broadcast in 2013.

Wow. That's right. 2013. And you were in the 2012 draft diary. You and Jacobi watch with me, you're the Pina Gallery, my mom came over halfway through

the draft with meatballs and rigatoni and all this stuff.

“Did the writing, like, slow, can you chart the writing, getting sleepier?”

No, it's because I was smart enough not to eat until after I finished the diary. House was not. You could kind of see House started the diary. Yeah. House just started eating and that was it.

Anyway, Kyle, why didn't drafts not work? If you had to give one reason why we have a bad draft, would you say it's just bad luck with talent? Is there a cluster theory that all of these guys are moving up the ladder and playing together and just not getting better because the other guys aren't that good?

Is it situation? What is it in your opinion? Yeah. I honestly, it's probably just the wrong people were having sex, the 19 years prior as a right.

Honestly, due to the day you were talking about the guys, first bad as it is, I mean,

we have two guys by my account that made the NBA's top 75 and then another drafts, I mean, oh, nine had hardening curry, 84 had a team, MJ Barkley stocked in 96 at Kobe

just the incredible defensive talent that came in the league during these two drafts.

“I mean, with AD with Dramon Green, with Rudy Gobeir, so you know, is it deep?”

Absolutely not. My first order of business was just a huge cutting of the chaff of the field. I was like, all right, only these guys are draftable period and I just kind of went from there. Yeah, I remember.

So I did the TV for the 2013 one and my favorite player was Oladipo who went second. But when you go through 2013, it's probably the busiest other than the drug draft in 1986. It's the busiest you're going to get Anthony Bannicko's first, which if you go on YouTube, I screamed out woe twice, not knowing my mic was on, but it was just so stupifying because they already had a powerful, they're Tristan Thompson and then they took Bannick, who played

the same position though. You were going to play with small forward too. He was, he had been in college for a year, was nuts.

He went first to Cleveland, Oladipo second Orlando.

Joe Houses, Wizards took Auto Porter, Cody Zellar 4 to Charlotte, Alex Lynn 5, New Orleans though I'll drop to six. He was supposed to go first all the way down to New Orleans, got Trader Philly, Ben Macklemore 7. Ketavius called Wopop 8, who's the second best player I've mentioned, Trayberg 9 and then

CJ McComb 10 at House in all time, although you had Auto Porter stock for a while. Yeah, he ended up being a good role player and he's still in the league, isn't he a mentor on one of these teams or is he some capacity, I'm sure he's around the way out of you not playing. Yeah, I don't think he's playing.

So that one and then that one gets better later, which we'll cover. The other one was just your standard bad draft, where Davis goes one in New Orleans, kid go Chris 2 to Charlotte, Bradley Bill 3 to Washington, and then it goes down waiters Thomas Robinson back to back, Dame Lillard 6, Harrison Barnes, Terrence Ross, Andre Drummond, Austin Rivers, Myers Leonard, Jeremy Lamb, and you're like, oh, one of the good guys coming.

Kendall Marshall, John Hansen, Moharclus, Race White, Tyler Zoward, Terrence Jones, Andre Nick Andrew Nicholson, that's our top 19 Kyle, I don't know what our draft guide would look back back them, but it really, really gruesome.

“And I remember the Celtics had 21 and 22, and I was rooting for Jared Selenger to fall”

to them at 21, which he did, but he had bad back issues. And then they took Fab Mellow, the 22nd pick, who played a total of six games in the NBA. And was the center of your average, yeah, and a center who average less than six rebounds a game in college. So, so these two drafts together has, you remember a more for Janice and a D in Dame or

for all the busts? I mean, it's, it's very busty. The true recollection for me going through this exercise, looking at the players or whatever, didn't feel like, at the time, there was, I mean, Anthony Davis was humongous at the moment. And then he, he delivered, but otherwise, it was just a lot of oddity upon reflection.

I'm impressed by the defense out of these two classes combined. And that's the best sort of attribute out of all of it in my humble opinion. And some three and D guys as well.

“It's right as the league's shifting to, we're not sure what we want exactly, right?”

This is 2012, 13 curry takes off in the 13 playoffs, basically, and during that season, then next year, it goes even up a level. But this is right where, I mean, I got to be honest, I love Thomas Robinson in that 2012 draft. To me, it was like, oh, he's a power forward banger who can shoot a little bit.

But those type of guys just don't exist anymore, Kyle. These six eight guys who can't really shoot, they're not great rebounders. It's like, what are they? But for some reason, they made sense before this decade. I guess in one sense, you could say that the analytics movement, which was getting, it

had begun, it was getting ready to really explode and be driven by the tectonic kind of shift of the curry era kicking off and kind of, and I think analytics started to inform

archetypes of players that we just would never get taken there, like an energy big like

Thomas Robinson, just absolutely, there's no way the analytics hate those types of players. I was going to bring up the, the, the, I don't want to move on from the 2013 broadcast because you were right. You had a ton of wins on that broadcast. I did.

I had a good talk. Yes. People should just rewatch it because it's entertaining. There's, you got to scrub through because it's a long thing. But there were a couple of moments where there was a point in the draft, I guess it was

like implied that you should take a guard at that spot.

“And you mentioned that all the teams in that range all have guards, you know, it's like,”

well, I don't think that they, and Jay Bill is comes at you and says, like, well, if they're the best player available, don't you think that they should take them if they're a guard. And I cannot imagine a more perfect comedic behind the back alley you pass to you at that moment than a chance to dunk on David gone because you did not miss a beat. You were like, that got David gone fired.

There was so many good moments in that rock. I mean, it was, it was such a train wreck as it was happening. And it was also David Stern's last draft, which was the other thing. But it was, you know, and Jaylin, I did the interview stuff that year, we interviewed all those guys and that made us feel worse about the draft, not better.

Joe House was very prominent during this 12, 13 range for a different reason. This is about a conspiracy bill.

I don't know if we want to bring him in, you want to come in.

There was some interesting lottery results all in a row here. Oh, yeah. Okay. Now we're talking.

“It just, it happens in 2010 after the draft, after it's in 2010, 2000, 11 draft, which”

we covered Cleveland, who had lost the bronze, they got the number of pick. Mm-hmm, 2012 New Orleans, which was owned by the league, lockout ends. They have to trade Chris Paul. They traded in the lake. There's a fall through.

They have to do this Clippers deal instead, which, well, it didn't fall through. It turned out that he bought his own people for basketball reasons. Yeah. The legendary, he had basketball reasons. So they take this Clippers thing, which people at the time felt like wasn't as good

to a trade. I like the Clippers trade a little more, but whatever. And then they're trying to sell the team, and I'm pretty sure they sold it before the draft. They did.

And then it was to the Benson family. This is true. That's what happened. And then they got Anthony Davis. They did.

Yeah. They got the number one pick in the driveway, man. They number one pick in the draft. They did. It was just an amazing how it worked out.

Meanwhile, Charlotte was like minus 3 and 63 in the luck out season. I think that's about negative wins. 2013, who wins the lottery, the Cleveland Cavaliers, 2014, who wins the lottery, Cleveland Cavaliers, who goes back to Cleveland two weeks after 2014 draft. LeBron James, what do they do with the first pick that they just got, which was Andrew

I guess. They traded for Kevin Love. I'm just saying there was a lot of conspiracy talk on phone calls with the House and I they're in the stretch. It's just fun.

Like the result, always favored what the league would have wanted, I think would

be a winner. The best outcome for the league for the league for the league over and over again. I would argue, Anthony Davis going to Charlotte, probably in 2012 probably would have been a better outcome at him going to New Orleans. Even if you look at the, the, the, you Washington at three, think Davis going to Washington

would have been better for you too, right? You went up with Bradley Beale, which was, I think for the most part, a really good pick, especially when you consider what this draft was. But wall in Davis.

“Yeah, that's, that's, that's what would have been amazing.”

Though two Kentucky guys, yeah, you know, wall came in in 2010 and then Davis shortly, thereafter. And that was the run that propelled Washington into, you know, hey, we make, we're making the playoffs of handful of years in a row. That's needo.

Kyle, another thing that I loved about looking back at these drafts. And we talked about it when we all did the, the post draft podcast on this feed after the, uh, 2020, six draft. The arrow and teams just made terrible decisions with the draft, like really horrible. Where they were just, they had a power for an area.

They were just double up with another one. They would take the wrong guard over a guard that goes, you know, four picks later, who's much better. They would take guys who clearly weren't ready for the NBA and put them in the worst possible city.

Um, I gotta say going through all this stuff, it really made me nostalgic for an era when nobody knew what they were doing, right? Can you feel that as you went through it? Oh, definitely definitely, um, I mean, like Alex Lynn, there's some, there's some pretty painful ones.

Um, I, I noted to the, you know, Cody Zeller, which he was okay, but, um, I had this written down, um, let's see, in 20, because that chart of this for another project I did in 2011,

There were 68 guys in the league that were over 16 in way to over 250 pounds.

And by 22, 23, that number had dropped at 36. So the, so the, the type of bodies in the NBA were really starting to change because of the pace and the space movement. And you just, you're just not going to see a Zeller or that type of guy get taken in the top five, um, so I mean, that's, that's, that's part of it, um, but, yeah, you just, you

just don't see that anymore. I didn't even kick Gilchrist. I don't even know that he would, would go number two today, just because of the, the way the shooting issues are, it's just not as, it's like they just didn't see the movement coming at all.

You know, I like kid go crest heading into that draft and so did house. We thought he could do like this kind of monster defensive something. And it's like this, if he could ever learn how to sort of shoot, it was going to be a bonus. But I, I do feel like, now he had some injuries. He had some stuff happen.

“I think he had some bad luck, but, um, I don't know, I, I, I thought that was either”

him or Bill was a really good argument for the two versus the three of that year. You mentioned the white guys and the, and the big guys. So in 2013, Sarah goes for Lengo's five in Noelgo's six. And the Noel thing was a big deal at the time. And I talked about it when I did the telecast because he was going to go one and maybe, maybe

two, it seemed inconceivable he's going to drop out. And after Phoenix passed him up for Len, it was like an official what is going on. Like is there some injury, we don't know about this ended up being the, um, Philly took Michael Carter Williams 11th and then traded Drew Holiday for the Noel pick and another pick with New Orleans and officially started the process, which is now, by the way, guys, uh,

done full circle. We are now at the end of the process with the LeBron signing. This is it. The first, the first day of the process was 2013, the end of it was, uh, when they got LeBron.

So that was weird.

“Then we had this Ionis element to the, to the draft, which I've talked about on a bunch”

of pods before that he, you know, he was, first of all, he was three inches shorter than it up being. It was six nine. And just seemed like little team Akish, a wiff of Kevin Durant, crazy athlete, but you're also watching these videos of him playing in Greece and these weird places.

And he always seemed like five years older than everyone who is playing against.

And I remember Fran for Shella was the foreign draft pick analyst at that point. And was was bullish on him, but nobody was like, this guy's going to be amazing. Um, Milwaukee takes him and the rest is history. Not only was he immediately like, oh, there's something here, but then he grew. And once he grew to seven feet.

So Kyle, if he's seven feet heading into this draft, is he the first pick? Is he the second pick? What is he? I don't know, I don't know if it would, would it be that much different really? I mean, was it that he, I'm forgetting the timeline here was he that he come to the combine

and he measured shorter than they had claimed because he was shorter. He was six nine. And so the feeling was like, he was going to be this perimeter, really athletic, like scoring,

“you know, and that's why all of these like best case scenarios are being thrown around.”

But nobody kind of really knew what it was. Didn't seem like he could shoot. But seemed like he had this up and down, crazy up and down. He was a good passer. He was athletic.

So there was something there, which is when we did the draft, we thought he was going to be somewhere between 12 and like 16, which is where he ended up. But, um, him growing was, I think one of the biggest things. One guy I really liked in the draft has been Mac Lamar, who, um, just had all the prototypes, but was a classic couldn't handle it off the court.

And then go bear was 27th house, one of your favorites. And came out of the stands to shake David Sternsand, my memory of that. I remember that. Yeah. That was really fun.

It was kind of the era when all the sudden guys started doing that if they weren't invited in the green room. And Denver gets them, but immediately trades him to Utah for the 46-pick and cash. They didn't have them very high on their board. Tough one.

Really not. That was the big one from, go bear was the big later guy from that draft.

And then 2012, Drey Mond ended up being the guy who fell out of the first round.

And that one was weird. I got to be honest. That one was weird as it was happening, because we'd watched him in college. And he was just an excellent college partner was clearly something, um, goal and state he falls to 35.

It's an, and goal and state takes them. They look like geniuses, right? Well, they passed them up at 30 and took festivities. I said, they didn't know. Right.

And even the stuff that he was known for in college, he didn't, that he reinvented himself

And it just clicked.

I mean, to, he deserves all the credit for being a brilliant, we can get into that

more later. But yeah, even the stuff that he, he was a back to the basket like crafty big in college, you know. He had a lot of weight to him that he kind of shed. He looked.

This is the Patriots took Tom Brady in the six round. And I was like, what a pick. That's a past on him in the fourth round in the fifth round, um, that Jay Crowder was the other one from that draft who went right before him at 34, which was another one. And I was like, wow, that feels a little late.

“But that's what happens when you're taking five mellow.”

I remember at Grantland, we had Grantland that year for the 2012 draft. So, a lot of Perry Jones people at Grantland. We had a lot of stock and it was like crypto in 2019 and it just completely fall apart. But that was when okay, see took him, it was like, oh, that's an interesting one. But in retrospect, they could have easily just taken drama on it.

They were picking 28th with, you know, coming off the finals, that would have been a fast thing pick. And how is any other things you want to hit before we hit the mega draft? No, um, I am glad that we combine these two drafts so that we can get to ten good players.

Okay. We're going to ask a question, really. Yeah. Well, just a quick, a quick sliding doors thing, what happens if Cleveland doesn't screw up that pick?

What if they, because on the broadcast, you suggested they take Oladipo, Oladipo has an all star peak at one point. What is that, what ripple effect does that have?

“Because I'm like, they probably still include him in a trade for Kevin Love, right?”

I would imagine. Because, you know, been it ends up in that swap with Minnesota. And I'm just like, it probably ends up like a brighter timeline for Minnesota, I guess. But then they did they get Carl Towns. I just was kind of like working through the, because the fact that he wasn't, you know,

a glowing prospect at that point made it easier to get off of them so quickly like they did. Yes. So I'm going back and looking at the calves, that would have been the 2013, 14 calves, the year that they got LeBron.

I thought, I was pretty adamant on every show and all the prep and on the telecast.

I couldn't believe Oladipo was in the first pick, because to me, he only felt, he felt like

the only sure thing in the draft, like he, he was clearly, he was good in college in Indiana. The team was good. He was a little castle-ish where it was like, I feel like he could maybe there was, there's more there with him on the ball, but he was a good defensive guard, super athletic. They finished 33 and 49 in the next year and got nothing from Bennett.

“So you could argue maybe he would have knocked their pick, like it wouldn't have been as”

good. Maybe their records, like a couple wins better than they don't get the number on pick, then they're not able to get Kevin love it. That there is somewhat every percussion, right? That would be the only thing I said it.

I thought it was weird. The Bennett thing was nuts, we, we thought Bennett was going to fall heading into the draft, like we're for real. That he was going to fall into the 8 to 10 range, which was the reason I did the, the world thing.

We're going to take a break during the break. Our producers go out on Eduardo, we figured out this number system because we're making this draft competitive. We're trying to win this draft. We're going to have people going on social media, we're going to draft eight guys each

from these two drafts and try to put together the best possible team. So this won't necessarily be a traditional redraft. There may be some low, I need a center, I got to, I got to take so and so here. So when we come back, we're going to do the mega draft. This episode is brought to you by search light pictures, more than ever American needs

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Feel your leader of Cole and roll up to the multiplex with super troopers three, only in theaters, August 7th, get tickets. Meow. All right, during the break, we figured out a convoluted way to forget the draft order. How it's numbers, we shot it out numbers and miraculous, I got the number one pick.

House's second. Jay Kyle. Weird how the draft order is favoring the host of the show. Yeah, how often. How often.

How often have you laid out here, but you have snake snake, you get three and four of, which is key for this draft. All right, so with the first pick of the 2012, 2013, two draft mega draft, Bill Simmons

will select Janis and Tettacupo, one of the single most amazing draft stores in the history

of the NBA, falls out of the lottery.

And I think it was probably the right move back then. I think if he went 11, we would have been like, what the, he went 11th, Jesus. Okay, see, passes them in 12th. Took Steven Adams instead. Can you say to Jets to have hardened, derand, and Westbrook and Janis?

They still had hard time in the team, and Westbrook. They could have just said fucking greatest what ifs of all time.

“Well, they took Adams, which was, I think the right pick, right?”

Because they needed one more big guy, but Dallas is at 13, two years removed from winning the title. It was one of those things where the articles that stuff after were like, we really like them. And it's like, well, if you like to me to take them, they end up trading, doing some convoluted

trade trading back, um, Utah is at 14, they pass on him, they take Shabbaz Muhammad, which everybody should be fired for that. And Milwaukee takes him at 15. Now, what's interesting is Dallas took Olinic at 13, Boston, treated up to 13 for Kelly Olinic, and not Janis, who they could have put with Kevin Garnett and the Paul

Pierce and the Ray on team. Anyway, um, and you know the rest, he's 10 all start teams, 21 finals MVP, two time MVP, seven times top four, seven all NBAs, um, has only made the conference finals twice House, um, traded to, um, Miami last month, and then, uh, and then LeBron didn't sign with them, and Dan Levitar tried to do a fanatics conspiracy thing.

That was the single most ridiculous thing I've watched on social media this month. I'm just saying, okay, like a ribbon. So the six or state four years ago, good track, um, Janis first, you agree with that comment, because you don't have the second pick. Yeah, thanks for reminding me of that.

Uh, yeah, Janis probably the best handling big guy of all time, I would say, uh, best

“driving big guy of all time, I think is fair to say, uh, four players have had NBA seasons”

of over 30 points for game over 10 rebounds, over five assists at over 60% true shooting, and he did it three consecutive seasons, um, NBA is the other one, um, yeah, you're just

talking about a pretty incredible story about just kind of where he came from his first

rookie deal, total was worth 8.6 million, and his current five year deal is at almost $230 million. So yeah, and he deserves it, man, I mean, he's just an incredible, he's an incredible plot when I was revisiting the stats, it was making me be like, man, I mean, it was, it definitely made me think like, I should probably go check this Miami thing out a little

bit more on a granular level again, because God damn he's good, man, I mean, it's, it's a simple thing to say, but it's the right thing to say. Yeah, and you figure who have two more, and this was the case, so I was trying to talk myself of Boston, God, and to two more really high level seasons if he's healthy, and then after that history will say, he's going to drop has one of the things I was looking

at, I was looking at my pyramid, which only you have seen the list, of the top 25 guys, of which you honest is one of them. And so many of those top 25 guys are just pedigree guys that we would have bet the ceiling

of this was top 25, right, if you go through top 25, Kobe's the first one, where if you

had said it 96 to 17 year old kid coming out of high school, and you would just said, he is going to be one of the 12 best players of all time, that would have been insane, but he did have the pedigree, he was the number on guy in high school, but then you go through the rest of them, Moses, somebody like Moses was the single biggest high school recruited in 1970s, like everybody was trying to go after him, he had an up going right to the

ABA, Dirk, I would say is one, and Yokage is the other one, is Yokage or Janice more unbelievable to you, Yokage was the 37th pick in 2014, what's a more unbelievable, I can't believe this

“guy was a final ZMPP in his now top 25 story for me for when you remember them in the”

draft, it's Yokage, and the reason for that, part of the reason for that, is do you remember

what he used to look like, right, because he's always been a freak, and then freak got

freakier because he got more muscular and he got taller, but yeah, there was nothing when you looked at the Joker to suggest that the career are that we've all enjoyed, some people

of Joker love, and I think he'll tell the served, yeah, we're weird for that, sorry, I like awesome basketball, but yeah, just throwing a match on that one, the Joker feels a little less

“likely, that's it, yeah, even if I go through the top 30, you know, like Kauai, who I think”

is a top 30 all-time guy, and he fell to 15, and that one's a surprising one, because nobody saw the offensive side of him coming the way it did, but he was still a lot, like

Yokage, I think is the right answer, but I think Yana's the second, even I look at a guy

like Barclay, you know, Barclay was a top five lottery pick was the most famous cut from the 1984 Olympic team was awesome in college and was the only question on him was he's gonna stay in shape, so yeah, anyway, Yana, you mentioned, you mentioned something interesting though, but the pedigree thing, because in 2012, Anthony Davis was coming off of one of the best American prospect years in history, where he comes out as the number one player

wins every player of the year award in college, gets a gold medal, goes number one, and if you'd said in the next decade, there's going to be a lanky power forward that dominates the NBA and gets, you know, gets an MVP and wins a title, he did end up getting one, but he didn't, Yana's had the career, I think that we thought AD was gonna have at the end of the day.

I couldn't agree more. I think out of the last 15 years, I think the two guys, I would have better anything on where Davis and Cooper flag, like just like, I know those guys are gonna be good, but Davis, I remember how soon I had watching Kentucky that year, and we're just like, holy shit, this guy's like, my kale crossed with, I don't even know what, but it just seemed like

“the only way that things stopping him was gonna be an injury.”

And if anything, I think it's weird because he's won a title, it's like mildly disappointing, he's not first on this list, I think he's a top 75 guy all time that had top 25 potential

laughs, and he never got there.

That's fair and reasonable, I might as well just go ahead and take him right now, since we're talking about him, I am gonna take him second overall on this draft, I'm not going out on a limb. He did arrive with the highest pedigree, we did love watching him immensely in college. He was definitely a can't miss, and yet he's on his 14, now, of course, this was a long time ago when he was drafted, but that tells you something, right, Yana's only one team

for his career until this most recent trade. I do wonder if some number of years removed, just to finish the thought on Yana's, we'll look back and be like, why tell me again, why Milwaukee had trade, Yana's, can somebody explain to me why they felt like, because the thing is, he's only 31, Yana's. Now for sure, you've done the work, the legwork in terms of window guys of this size,

and tend to fall off when does, you know, and it's often a cliff, but that kind of also will apply to Anthony Davis potentially, and he's two years old, or he's 33, the thing that Davis has going for him, that makes him, it's a no-brainer, obviously, for him to be number two. But the all defense stuff was really meaningful, for him to make that his calling card,

because when he arrived, I thought that the inside outside game was gonna be the thing. I thought he might be a prolific score. He faced the basket and shot the ball in a way that was confident, and, you know, his three points shooting, I don't know if the number support this, I'm telling you the eye test, his three points shooting early in his career was excellent, I thought.

So, you know, easy pick for me at number two.

“I think during the 1718 season when they made the playoffs and upset somebody, I think”

that's a little bit more important, but I remember during that year on pods, and I can't remember if I was writing or not, there was like a moment when it seemed like he was becoming the best part in the week. During the basically post all star in 2018, it was like LeBron was in his last Cleveland year, and was he had missed some games, and he was trying to push them to get traded.

And then LeBron took that title back, like mother fucker in the playoffs. He's like no actually, I'm still the best guy in the week, but I don't ever, like if you told me in 2012, Davis is only going to have two top five MVP finishes in his entire career. I would have assumed he had some dramatic major injury, because he, it just seemed like

he was so talented, it seemed inconceivable that he wasn't going to be an MVP, and he never

made it. Highest he ever got, he was 2018, he was third in the MVP, and there was that other moment he had in the 2020 playoffs, when it felt like he was going to win finals MVP, halfway through that series, right?

net game.

“He was probably going to win finals MVP legitimately, but he wasn't good in that game, and”

LeBron ended up winning and had a better series, but he never went to fence and poor

the year. His four-year peak was 27-11. Now he's played at 877 games and missed over 300. I mean, there's a reason we've called him every other Davis, and it has been, you know, now he's on your team.

Of course, with the playoffs, I welcome him with open arms. I do, this is the situation on thing, like sometimes when we, we all know people with with kids that we like and families that the kids, but in sometimes you, you're like, oh, man, I wish that kid didn't have that mom, I feel like that kid would have better chance.

You're like, oh, man, that kid's dad sucks, and I do think that, yeah, there's sometimes you're like, oh, I'm not sure how much of a chance these parents are going to allow this kid. I do feel that way with NBA teams sometimes, like Davis goes to New Orleans.

“What's a worse fucking team to go to the New Orleans in 2012?”

Like, you're changing owners that are owned by the football team, they had more weird injury, medical stuff than just about any team, and, you know, this is a good, put two drinks in barrier and barrier as some good stories about New Orleans during that time. But yeah, I just feel like if you do his career 50 times, this isn't the worst version of it, but I don't think it's in the upper echelon of what I would have said.

All right, yawness one, Davis 2, Kyle Manneau on the clock with two picks in a row.

We know who the first pick's going to be, but I don't know who the second pick's going to

be. Uh, you could probably know him, you guess who it's going to be, but, uh, my nerdy ass. Uh, my, my pick is going to, my first pick is going to be Damian Lillard, um, Damian Lillard top 75 all-time guy. Um, I think in this era of dribble shooting that kind of changed basketball in the way that

we were talking earlier, was it just shooting? It was ball handler shooting the ball changing, picking roll coverage is changing the way bigs need to perform, uh, Lillard just kind of has the misfortune of playing in the same era as Curry because he's just one of the best shooters of all time. Uh, he's a winner, um, I'll, I'll go ahead and spoil.

I kind of had this between these two classes, I had written down like the best moments in the worst moments. And the best moments. I mean, it's hard to argue against Dames, uh, he's got two series game winners, you know, we as we talked about before, you know, he put out, uh, the thunder, and then he put out,

uh, he, uh, blanking on it, but he's done it twice now, um, it was the thunder twice. Um, it, well, it was, uh, Chandler Parsons was guarding him on the first one, and I was thinking, well, that might've been the grizzly. Maybe it's a rock either way. Yeah.

Um, never made a finals, never went around three game.

Well, the conference finals once got swept, um, all NBA first team once, second, fourth, 13 twice, fourth MVP in 2018, five year P cast, 28, five and seven, 30, a percent from three. Um, I thought it was the right pick. He's also, there's a chance, and we're going to talk to Barry, or I'm going to talk

to Barry later about the trailblazers. There's a chance these Portland's last great player, like if something bad happens to that franchise, this was their last thing, um, I'm just going to read you some highlights from my draft diary, because I've got this about as wrong as you can get, I still feel like I had a winning percentage in the draft diary, but, um, forgot to mention, the blazers

picked aim six, because of the Gerald Wallace trade, which might have been the worst trade of the, of the, of the 2010s, all things considered Brooklyn trading a top three protected pick to Portland for Gerald Wallace, who was about to become a free agent. And this was, I killed Billy King over and over again, and he deserved every bit of it. It's, it's like pound for pound, the worst trade of the decade.

So they end up getting six. They have to give Damian Lillard that pick to the blazers, and it's like one of the all time, of course, even if it had been a top 10 lottery protected, they're probably doing that. What are you guys doing?

Um, but anyway, I wrote after the pick, we're watching highlights, it's me house in Jakobi, and I wrote, these are jokes ahead. What conferences Damian Lillard firm again, has any top 10 pick ever had more highlights that happen against white people? Is it weaver or Weber?

“Has anyone ever picked a backup link card this high?”

But they just picked Jared Bayless again, or am I crazy? Are these highlights from division one games? These are all quotes that I wrote down that one of the three of us said. And then, uh, and then I wrote later, I was saying, Brissard was saying how they needed someone to stretch a floor for Lillard for all drugs.

And I said, Lillard can shoot. I might talk myself into this pick by midnight at least, I need at least two more drinks.

rivers than a 22 year old Damian Lillard, tough, tough draft IRA for me in Damian. Everybody was excited about Austin Rivers pairing with AD, though. I mean, to be fair to you, I recall a lot of excitement about that combo. And I think, and Austin Rivers goes back to what I said about Davis before, like, that's just, he went to the wrong franchise.

That guy was the best part in high school, and I think you end up just, you go down a road and then New Orleans, quit on them, and I don't know. I, I feel like his, there's another version of his career that's more interesting.

“But anyway, what did you think of Damed Do you remember back then Kyle, as a proud guy?”

I was, I was working for Zappos.com back then. I was just kind of, I just had some dude who liked to talk to you about basketball. Um, I liked him. I mean, you hear stories about him that he had, like, one of the best workouts, the people acted like they saw Christ when they came away from that workout, where they were like,

this is, this guy has it. Um, yeah, I mean, he's an interesting developmental story. You know, we were state, I guess he was Mount West. I'm sure I remember what conference they're in. Anyway, yeah.

I remember going to see him as rookie year, and he was going against Chris Paul, it was peak. And I had really good seats and Chris Paul just destroyed him for two and a half hours. And I was like, yeah. No, that's what Chris Paul did.

I don't know about this thing. Lord guy. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, he just went to Chris Paul College and a couple years later, he's flipping it on Chris Paul.

All right. Now, get exciting. So we, the top three went how we thought, but the fourth pick, there's some good options on the table. Who do you have?

I'm taking Drayman Green. Yes. I knew you would. I had him on my board and the fourth spot as well. Okay.

Make the case. Uh, Drayman Green is one of the more interesting, um, we were talking about, like, a player having a silver sense of who they are.

“I think he realized what he needed to be in the situation that he was in.”

He's one of the best screeners.

He's an incredible passer.

He happened to play with, he's high, high level processor on both ends of the floor. He's been, he had one of the best defensive stretches for any player in the league, starting from like, 14, 15 to 2019, the run that he put together, I think he might be one of the best post defenders of all time, one on one, again, really difficult to score on, um, yeah, I just think Drayman's one of the smartest players, one of the smartest players that we've had in

NBA history, honestly. I don't have him in my 100 for the pyramid house, but he came closer than the next guy who I think is going to get taken in this. I did write down the five best non-centered defenders ever, Scotty Pippin house, okay, then it's Rodman, sure, could I Leonard, no argument, Andre Goudala, interesting, okay, Drayman

Green, speaks for itself in my opinion, would you put Gary Peyton above any of those? Probably have probably have the globe ahead of Big with Alla. That's the spot. I think Drayman has has to be one of the first four, and Steve Kerr has, it's been

interesting, he's, he kind of dances around it because he's always been very pro-pippin,

like, installing his virtues all the time, talking about what an unbelievable defense

“support, but he's had a couple of moments where he's like, I think Drayman might be one”

of the best defense of the perimeter guy ever. He's in the conversation, so I think, I think that's the right pick. What are you going to say? These are these are different species of defenders, though. You're talking about Peyton, he's a point of attack guy.

You're talking about Iguadala and Kauai, those are like a sign-mits, switchable perimeter score match-up dudes, what's interesting about Drayman is he's not a rim protector, but he's a rim deterrent to a certain level that he doesn't really have to be because he doesn't block a ton of shots, he's like a deflection machine, he displays middle line backer better than hardly any player that I've ever seen, like he's so smart, I made

a video about this one time, his timing, he could snuff out plays, he had really incredible discipline about, like, I'm going to stay completely still so that this guy doesn't know that I'm about to make a play on the ball, and then make a play on the ball at the last possible second. He's one of the best ever at that, so I'd say he's a little different to those guys,

just that he guards up the food chain a little more than the pippins in the Iguadala types. No question. Made a second team, third team on BA, 2017 defense and part of the year, five first team all defenses.

In the playoffs, five year stretch, that incredible, five year warrior stretch they had,

he played 104 playoff games, got suspended famously for one of them, 13 10 and 7, 3.2

year, I love winning streaks as anyone who follows this podcast notes, I love the Miami 27 gamer, I love that 25, you need somebody like him on the team to win that many games in a row, he's just a maniac, he's a absolute competitive maniac, and sometimes it

“tilts over the line, and I think it's had real repercussions for them.”

It had repercussions when he punched the brown on the balls, did the flick up. It had repercussions when he punched Jordan pool, it's had he's gotten dumb technicals in games, but that's just how he's wired. I'm a huge historical dream on defender. I think he's right on the cost by being one of the hundred best guys.

I couldn't get in there just because we've had almost 80 years of great players at this point, but when you think like, okay, see Pascal and then Cleveland passed on him at 33 and 34, and when LeBron came back to years later, he could have already been on the team. So all right, Kyle has Dame and Dremon, that's a pretty good start. I'll be really interested to see what House does here at five because two of his least

favorite players the last 15 years are on the board. I'm dying. This is going to be gross. So that House is in this spot. What do you have, House? This is going to come as a surprise in this sense. I actually have come around on this guy. Oh, what is going to happen?

Oh my god. I like Rudy go bear. I'm a really go bear fan coming all the way around. Guess how many conference finals. This is the Tateroma D. You have been well answered. He's played in two Western conference

finals. You know who else only has two Western conference finals Anthony Davis. Rudy go bear.

Eight times all defensive first team member, four time defensive player of the year.

“Would you say he's the best defensive center of the Steph career?”

Think you would. Yes, I would. I would say that. I think I think since it's been joking, Noah, he's been the best defensive center sense.

I think in a certain sense, Minnesota and Tim Connelly have been vindicated in terms of, you know, that the trade that they made and what it did in terms of propelling Anthony Edwards forward, I do think that there was a role that that go bear played there. And he's the face of COVID. So of course, he's the number one pick in the United States of America, who announced

COVID to America, Rudy fucking go bear in the Rudy go bear game. Yeah, you're right. One second team to 30 mom be is in the playoffs. 96 games is average in the three.

Three, third teams, three, third teams, three, third team three.

There's been all NBA four times in the playoffs, 12 and 10, one and out blocks again, 96 games, two conference finals. So your team right now has Anthony Davis with Rudy go bear. So you're going to die cheese. Yep, not great.

What do you think of that guy? I mean, go bear is one of the, he's a great elite. We're in protector for most situations. And I think just the thing that he's run up against in his playoff history is that when you're trying to paint a masterpiece, you just kind of need to iterate one step further

than Rudy go bear because he just is problematic and 80 doesn't have the same issues. Like he can't get played off the floor in the same way. He's offensively super challenged. Yeah, you mentioned, you mentioned, just him as a team made. He's running into that at different times over his career.

I had the best moments in worst moments. We've mentioned two of the worst moments for these two classes. Dream on punching Jordan pool, go bear touches all the mics right before COVID. The other one is Kelli Olenic, Andrew's Kevin Love, let's see other one. Yeah.

That's a good one. I rewatched that one. That was brutal. So yeah, that's go bear. I appreciate him, but he wouldn't be somebody I would reach for.

Yeah. I am up with two picks. And there are two picks that I actually wrote.

This is a great argument and didn't know who should go first.

I'm not going to cop out and just take them together. And I'm wavering. Well, I'm going to end up with both of them anyway. I'm going to take Bradley Beale with the six pick. OK.

Might be another. I wish he'd gone to a different franchise guy. I got to see a few of those wizard Celtics 2017 playoff games. And he didn't shoot well in that playoffs. But I really liked the competitive spirit he had.

And I remember talking to House about that after.

“I think House, if you go to game seven, did I bring you to that?”

No, I did not go to game Boston.

He was really comfortable in this game, in this atmosphere. And if anything, the wizards, I thought, made the mistake, which I talked about at the time of like the Celtics just weren't quite in John Wilde or letting him shoot threes. And I actually thought if they had run stuff through Beale, they would beat us. That was also the Kelly Olympic game, which we'll get to later.

But that kind of turned out to be the peak for him as like a competitive player.

He's never made it to round three, he's only played 49 playoff games.

His individual peak, he averaged 31 a game and 20 and 21 combined. He's made almost 350 million year. And my friend, Joe House, during the draft Irish said, when he got picked third, right player right spot, who's a very unwizard like pick, we needed a guy who could shoot at the basket and not at his teammates was a Joe House joke.

Good joke. Oh, really, that's how that's a really good joke. I wrote, hey, now, after I quoted you on the joke, um, look, you pay these guys sometimes, you know what's going to happen.

“And I think that contract ended up being the worst thing that happened to him, unfortunately.”

But, um, there's feels like there should have been more here at Kyle. Uh, the arc of how this has gone down for him, you know, some of this has happened. I know since I've been working at the ringer where, you know, in the post John Wall injury wake that we had, he put together a four season stretch that was pretty incredible. You mentioned that the, I mean, overall 27 points, over five assists, 1.3 steals, you know,

35 point eight percent from three gets the line a ton, um, where it was looking like, okay, this guy, we need to get him find a way for him to play serious basketball and he'd send that huge contract and he had the no trade clause and he had a no trade clause in there as well. That just directly, yes, on and on and, uh, it's, I just remember thinking about that.

I'm like, this guy's developing and improving, but he's just, do, it's wasteful just because he's in such a bad situation and then the injury stuff starts. So he's kind of had a sad arc, I mean, you know, he'll cry all the way to the mansion. Yeah. Wife is tears with $100 bills, but how's he got to an odd arc for him?

How's he watched them a lot? He really was like an absolutely high level lead score for years. Yes. Yes. Really hard to finish.

Really excited. Yeah.

“Let just, could get 30 basically any time he wanted it and I think could have been a score”

on a really good team.

Just never had the right team.

Um, I'm, I'm appreciate your restraint though, House. I thought you'd be a lot meaner right now. No, I mean, in terms of this exercise that we're doing, I have him lower because what was revealed in my own experience with him was that he couldn't drag winning basketball out of a situation, right, you know, as soon as John Wall got hurt and, you know, the franchise

was in disarray because directionally, uh, the owner and the general manager were, were kind of stuck about what was the right thing to do. Right. So they gave him a once in a lifetime contract, we'll never see a contract like that again, the combination of you was a slumber of a car crash.

Yeah. You knew when it was happening. It was like, yes.

“You have to do this, but you shouldn't do it.”

Which we, we see in football sometimes, too, with the quarterbacks. Yeah. It's like, I don't want to give this guy a 50 million year, but what am I going to do?

Just fine, the no trade is, will never be forgivable.

Yeah. It will never be, they'll, they'll never be an explanation that makes sense. Um, I'm taking Chris Middleton with the other pick. I almost took him six 39 pick in 2012, um, went to Milwaukee and played there for a while. His career like if you go back about reference, his career is a little better than I even

realized that I was always a fan, 2021 and be a champ, he was the go to score on that team. I know Yana said more points, but when they needed baskets, they ran through Middleton. 2021 playoffs Kyle 24, 7 and 6 for Chris Middleton, 44% shooting. He average 20 a game for basically five years from 18 to 22 and was, you know, a good defense

up where a two before his body started breakdown, I just thought he was a winning player and improved it because they won the finals with him. So I really did think about him over Beale, but I couldn't get there because of the talent of Beale. So anyway, that's you swapped places, if you put Middleton, if you put Beale in Middleton

situation, it does make you wonder if he made it any place next to a Yana suit, because he was the perfect archetype of player to play next, Yana's collapse is the, you know, the defense and everybody's, you know, for he can out as he drops the ball, Middleton just had this incredible, he was one of the best isolation pull up scores in the league for two

I think I honestly feel like people forget kind of how nasty of a scoring bag he had. People forget it's a Twitter video. Chris Middleton was a problem. You want to go into another award, I have a team USA selection tells you, I really like this game.

The Celtics made the 22 finals partly because Middleton was injured in that playoff series, and that was probably the push of the top. All right, I already won the draft, so we're going to take a break. I have Yana's Bradley Bill Chris Middleton. You guys aren't winning.

It's over. We're going to take a break. Come back with House has next pick. All right, House is on the clock. He has Anthony Davis and Rudy Gobeir trying to figure out how to play them together.

And Anthony Davis wants to be out of the pain anyway, I feel great about that.

“Are we going to the Patriot League for this next pick?”

You know, I gave that a nice hard look, and that is one of the things on CJ McCollum's resume that does commend him, but surprisingly, the career of CJ McCollum will outpace the guy that I'm actually going to take. But the high of this guy, if this poor guy didn't get hurt, yeah, was superior to any high that that CJ McCollum experienced, and so I'm taking Victor Aladepo.

It was going to be a question of where he went. Underrated. Yeah. Underrated injury. What if guy?

Right. Exactly. The defense is the thing with him, especially. All defense of first team, lead the league and steals, made one, all NBA, third team, one, most improved player, all rookie first team, so like he came in with that at that

number one, I mean, number two overall pick in the draft, and I think he kind of validated it. He showed us, he did lead a team in scoring in a playoff series.

So, it just was, you know, never promised fulfilled because of the injury situation.

2019, 23, 5 and 5, lead the league and steals, 37% from 3. So he gets picked by Orlando, okay, he ends up stealing him in the abacca trade, and then takes him with subonence and flips him for Paul George, and Odebo goes to Indiana and becomes a star. I actually, deep, I wouldn't have rabbit hole with the Pacer's cab series from 2018.

“You guys remember the series, round one, seven, didn't it?”

He was having games. When seven, there's a game five that's on the last five minutes of it on YouTube. It's in Cleveland, series tied to two. They get a LeBron turnover with like 26 seconds left, and they call time out, and it's basically Odebo to win the game.

Odebo is at the top. They've been trapping him the whole fourth quarter, but it's just LeBron and Odebo. He beats LeBron, goes to the basket, and LeBron fucking stuff set off and blocks it, gets the ball. This was like, I think LeBron in that 2018 playoffs was the greatest version of him.

Time out comes down, LeBron hits the game winning three, block three, and then it goes to seven, and they hung around in seven, too, but Cleveland won in seven, but he went toe to toe with LeBron, that whole series, I think he had 30 in game seven, but you left that series thinking like, wouldn't incredible trade, they got Odebo and Sebonus for Paul George, like that was in everybody wins trade, but he made the All Star team in the next

year, and then he got hurt, and it started having new problems.

They fucked up the surgery on it, and he was never, never the same.

Where'd you have them, Kyle? Jim Iran. Thor's, Thor's, Patelorton, and too, didn't he? Yeah, just because of the arc in the body of work, yeah, I ended up with him at 13, but I'm kind of, it's, I guess it's something about the spirit of this exercise, is are we,

“are we doing this like a battle world type scenario where the peak version of this person?”

It's whatever he's on a team? No, you get the clear head, you can't, it's the career that the career he had, you're basically saying this is probably what would have happened. Now in his case, bad luck with the injury, but, you know, what's interesting is we were talking about, like how many guys are left from this class, like still active, it's crazy

you go back like 2011, six guys, still active.

It was amazing to me as I was going back the years, you mentioned LeBron, and I got to

2011, I was like, Jesus Christ, we get to go all the way back in LeBron, it's still, it just really hammered home, you were talking about all the different, and like, whether or not AD was the best player in the world, there's so many different years where we would argue about like, oh yeah, this guy's the best player in the world, it's like LeBron, it just further cemented it to me, it's just like, God damn LeBron's unbelievable, man,

He has so many, I'm, for me, letting a LeBron's ag case further, there is a case that

career dwarfs the peak of Jordan. Did you make what I wrote? No, I wrote. Yeah. I had the same revelation recently, because you go through, and it's just so many crazy games.

So I was like, through his advanced metrics, and there's just, there's years where he's just like, plus 21 on off, you know, like crazy, crazy shit and a lot of play up moments. So many play up moments that I literally forgot about the 2018 Pacer series, like, a block to save the game, and then a game winning buzzer beating three in the other end, and an

app in a row, Kyle, you have two picks. Well, let's see, I have good bookings here with Drainmond and Lillard. I don't really know what we're going to do with Yana, so if we're imagining these teams literally play each other, maybe Drainmond can take that assignment. I mean, I feel like I have to take CJ though, I feel like the reunion of David CJ, they're

back. I'm trying to trade them already. Oh, Patrick, look at the house. Run. Hey, here will be my argument for this, is that if you look at the way that CJ Dame played

with Nirkage, you'd get a better defensive player than Nirkage at the same kind of full from playmaker, you just, because they talked about trading for Drainmond at one point right, or he thought about going there, there was some conversation about that.

“Yeah, I think if you paired Lillard and CJ with Dame, that would be a good offensive start.”

I've got other questions to answer, but he's too good to pass up here for me. So I'll go ahead and since house took a little deeper, I'll go ahead and take CJ. House, I was surprised with CJ, just steady 20 for like 13 years, but he's 19.5 points a game regular season 20 in the playoffs, like that's, he's on the court is getting 20 basically.

Yeah, no all star appearances, no all NBA teams, a most improved player award, which is not nothing, but, you know, the coming from the Patriot League, it's a hell of a career plus, you know, the esteem that his peers hold him in and what he did with the basketball, you know, the player's association, and you can see him going from, you know, at these end of career moments, he was awesome in Washington.

Not only was he good for the young guys, he was tremendously complementary of the organization in a way that really, you know, built up excitement in Washington for what Washington was was doing. CJ McCollum did that. I like the place.

I don't like them as I should. We have a second apron or not vote, because, you know, he was more than that second apron thing, which is really bad. Okay.

“So you took CJ McCollum with one pick, Kyle, man, who's the other pick?”

Oh, I'll go, but we can't think of another non shooter. I think I'm going to go with Harrison Barnes with my pick. I had a mixed, all right, some really solid career Harrison Barts, right place right time, too, in the cap spike, 2016, where the Warriors decide they're going to go up for Durant

and Dallas is scrambling there, like, we'll give you 90 million for four years or whatever

they gave up. I think it was a sign-in trade, too, but, but, yeah, still around now on San Antonio trying to get a ring. Can I read you with Joe, with Joe House, said Durant the draft, Iri? Absolutely.

Harrison Barnes gets taken seventh, so we make a bunch of, he's got to be a static, you didn't go to Sacramento Jokes. This is what I wrote. Jacobi and I both noticed that Golden State starting five, Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Barnes, David Lee and Andrew Bogot, look sneaky, good on paper.

Right until House says, quote, you left out the part that Curry and Bogot will get hurt.

They're paying 25 million per year to Richard Jefferson and Andrew's beadrants, and their

coach was just involved in a sex extension scandal with a stripper, that was Mark Jackson. And then I wrote, yeah, but still. So, House, you were not a Golden State believer in 2012, but I stood on it, put it on your

“resume, you stand by it, okay, well, how about this?”

Did I know that they were going to acquire Steve Curry and make him the head coach immediately on the heels? He didn't believe the record states for itself. I didn't believe in Mark Jackson, I could tell you that much. You have the next pick, and I'm going to guess you're not taking Andre Drummond.

I kind of want to, because pedigree wise, he's impactful, like two all star appearances,

He has an all NBA team.

I was stunned looking at his four rebounding titles, yeah, he's four rebounding titles.

“Yeah, four rebounding titles, I want to say the good thing about it, I think the problem”

is, I'm immediately conceding, I have the worst team in this, and the reason is because the number two spot in this draft format that we have is a dead man. Here come the excuse. You guys are good. Here they go.

Two guys at a time. Here they go. And it makes no sense whatsoever for this team, except for Andre Drummond is a three point shooter at this stage is career pretty, look at man, he's standing in the corner. So you're taking up and down three, I'm taking out, I'm taking Andre Drummond.

You went, now he just, yeah, go ahead. He went 19, 2012 to Detroit, and he's going to house his team right now, and in my draft Ier that I wrote, he was dropping a little bit, and they showed him it's really funny. They, the camera just stayed on him, and he kind of looked at the camera and had this sad smile and all of us liked him after, where he had this smile like, I'm a nice guy,

I can't somebody draft me, everybody likes him, and we were all kind of on him, and from my draft Ierie, Billis mentioned that Drummond shot 29% on free throws last year.

“What Jacobi Yups with the mouthball, meatballs, mouthball, meatballs, amount on Drummond?”

How 29% in college, it's like he, he was on a U-Con team that should have been a lot better that had Jeremy Lam, that was, that was not a great sign, but yeah, I was going to say, do we get that youthful athleticism of Andre Drummond with the same wisdom of the corner threes, but then house, I was going to say it's going to be a crowded elevator, I mean, it's kind of a crowded phone booth, you got going there with Rudy Gobert, and

you better hope eight he's shooting, development comes around under your watch. I got all three levels, because I got 80 in the mid range, gobert's there for office of rebounding, and Drummond's my corner three guy with Oletippo kick and shoot. Yeah, plus there's a lot of perimeter guys left, how still might be in this, I don't think how's it's done.

I'm taking Katavius Caldwell Pope with my pick. He went number eight in the 2013 draft, um, two rings, 2020 lakeers, 2023 nuggets in those,

“the stats for him and those series in the playoffs combined 11 points again, 38% from three,”

and basically played like 32 minutes again, played real minutes.

And we know for a fact, this is a guy who can be the three and the guy on a championship team, because he did twice, um, six year stretchers, 11 points, again, for 39% and somebody that I thought, I thought clutch and the ringer's rich Paul did a masterful job, just continuing to get him money and leverage in the lakeers and other people, um, but I know I can compete with him.

And then, I'm just going to do, can I do this? Well, that may be, oh, yeah, yeah, uh, can I just, uh, you know what, I need, yeah, I'm going to take Dennis shooter here, oh, interesting, okay, only because I need one more guard for my team, and there's a couple of swings left, but I have swings. Um, Dennis shooter, 17th pick in 2013, he's been on 11 teams that any of them ever end

up like in the experience after the fact, we're going to find out on mine, uh, two okay see years, 17 points again for them and pretty good shooting stats. I was kind of the peak for him and a really great international guard, um, somebody that

anytime we were playing German internationally, he was always just terrifying.

I've always kind of liked them. And even in the playoffs, he's at knowing like he's got a lot of confidence and he's going to fit in perfect with my team. So, called well-pubbed shooter, two guys have been in a lot of playoff games house. Yeah, I don't mind shooter at all.

I thought that he was, um, one of the, the more fearless guys on Cleveland in that playoff front just last year, like yeah, those, those, um, shooter-struced minutes were kind of vital for them competitive-wise, because those guys were like out there getting after it. Uh, and I, I always hold him in high regard for what he did for Germany. I'm not, I know it's kind of a silly thing, but he's a dog.

We both, like, a dog for Germany. We both care about that stuff. Your thoughts come in. I just love the house being happy for Germany, I didn't expect that. And no, me, shooter, shooter has, like, the, uh, the Rod Strictland Robert Pack thing going

show where he leaves town at the end of every episode.

It's like, that was fun. And then somebody else talks himself into him. You're right. He's like, it's like, it's like the 10th and again, they think. Even Sacramento is like, I look good under Troy.

Here's a weird contract and almost immediately, they're trying to get out of it. Um, all right. How's your up again? I have absolutely no idea what to do here because all that's left in terms of pedigree guys that I like are all big guys and I can't, I can't take it.

What are you talking about? There's some other perimeter guys. I know, but, but, I mean, in terms of who, who, which should be, and who I'm stepping over. I don't know.

Do I really want to do this? Do it.

Do the dumbest thing possible.

So you can definitely lose the draft. I don't think I know what's going to happen, but yeah, I mean, it's all big guys. You do have another big guy? No, I'm not.

“But I think that there's two or three big guys I have ahead of who I'm about to take.”

I can't do that. There's no way. I didn't realize how soon it's going to take so much time trying to figure this out. This is hard. And I'm the insights point.

Yeah. Here we go. Well, I, I put myself into a corner with this one, because you might as well lean to the bit. It's the same guy.

Like, it's either Robert Covington or J. Crowder. That's where I'm at. I have to choose between one of those two. That's not what I thought you were going to say. Yeah, go ahead.

Go ahead. I guess I'll take Crowder, I guess I'll take Crowder. That's where I'm going to land. You need a guy who can hit three, he's in guard some wings and there are some on answer questions.

No, yeah. I like Dave Crowder. Yeah. He's got a crazy playoff. I had it written down here, he's 115 playoff games in 11 seasons and over 3,200 playoff

minutes. That's that's near the highest in these two classes. He was just on competitive teams over and over and over again. Another giant defensive impact guy, too. Like I love the defense on my team so far, so I have a great defensive.

See to Crowder. I did. That's a Crowder. Listen, I had him close. We saw him in four seasons be a legitimate 3 and D guy for good teams.

2016, 17 Boston, Boston made the conference finals in 17. He was 14 and 5, 37% three point and he could guard a bunch of different guys. I liked him when he was on the Celtics and then he was on teams that lost the finals back to back years. Miami 2020, Sun's 21 and played big minute.

He played 32 minutes a game for those teams, hit 3s and you know, it was very similar to called well Pope. I thought him and called well Pope, I had trouble trying to figure out who to take between those guys. All right.

Kyle, you have the, you don't have a starting 5 after this pick, so you're out next. I'm going to take Steven Adams. Yep.

“That's why I wanted to take, but I didn't think it was my team.”

I almost took him. You should have, how she should have just done it, because that would have just been a whole year. Your team would have been a rugby team that would have been not fun to play. Well, it's not too late.

They're still trying. They're still trying. No, I think with the shooters that I have, especially with Dramon and Steven Adams, it'll be a little interesting. But he's like one of the best offensive rebounders alive, so I think he's going to be a good

fit with those with those guards 17 through 20 was 13 and 9. Somehow he's still only 33 years old, I don't, when he came into the league when he was like 17. All right.

So here are our starting 5s now as we head toward the bench as Kyle has the first pick

of the next round. I have Janis, Bill, Middleton, called well Pope and Schroeder. It's a team that actually makes sense together. Now it says, go bare, Davis, old Adepo, Drummond and Crowder. So needs needs we're perimeter and Kyle has Adams and Dramon, CJ and Dame and Barnes.

So that looks like a basketball team, but this is a big pick right here. Are you taking Kyle? Uh, I feel like I need a wing, so I am going to take you to Crowder. I really hope you take somebody that I don't want to take when I'm up.

There's a guy I just don't want to end up with.

“Uh, I think I'm picking between two dudes here.”

I based on this guy's peak, how good he was. That is best. Do it. I think I'm going to take Robert Covington. Oh, wasn't expecting that.

Yeah, that's pretty good pick.

“Uh, he's going to, I think defensively I'm going to have a pretty good team too.”

Granted. He fell off a cliff. Yeah, but Robert Covington somehow undrafted in 2013, even though we had a slew of bus. So he, I didn't remember this. He was fourth in the defensive player of the year voting in 2016.

Somehow I didn't make an all defense team, but then made first all defense in 2017. From 15 to 19 was 13 a game, 36% from three, and was a little jit defensive guy. I remember on the Celtics played the sixers in 18. That was kind of the unraveling of the Roko was a really big guy for like the basketball block community and the events, but, and then we just left him open for the entire series

in 18 and he could have made anything. Um, and I thought that was where I was like, ah, we sure this guy's good.

He ends up being in the Jimmy Butler trade the next year, never really got it back.

But his peak is defensively, he was a, he was a little jit and immediacy there for a couple years. I, I'm having a little remorse as you were saying all that, but I, I, I, I still like him. There's not a lot left, House, please take the guy I don't want to take. Do we, we're still going with this thing?

Yeah, we have more pit.

“We're taking eight, each, like there's 24 good points for these two, two drafts because,”

you know, I'm not, I can't do it. I'm not going to take that guy. It would be super funny though. Anthony Bennett, definitely not Anthony Bennett. Just take your guy out of Porter.

I know. I just looked at it. The problem is that, um, coming to and presents better than than Porter over the, the, the body of work.

Um, and Porter's best straight is a high three point average and the percent for his career.

I was shocked. Very good. He's good. That was a good one. Those were the two I was picking between, yeah, the leaving, leaving open thing.

Maybe feel queasy like I made a mistake, but yeah, he stuck around a long time. What, I don't have it handy in front of me. How many playoff games do you play in? It wasn't very many. It wasn't very many.

127 games total. Yeah, so that's, that's the issue. Had a really good one season on the bulls after the wizard straighted him. Yes. And then they kind of died after that. Who you taking out?

Out of Porter. Oh, that's you is your pick. You seem so begrudging about it. Okay. I think that was a fair pick.

Um. Got this sucks. I'm just not happy about this. Oh, crying on the yacht over here with your yannas. Number one pick and come on.

No, I just hate this guy. I don't hate him. I hate him. I'm, man. God damn it.

I don't even know who you, who you are. I'm going to take him and have a guess. I'm going to take Evan for me. Yeah, okay. I looked at him for a minute.

What's there to hate? He played 19 playoff games and won three in his entire careers, 3 and 16 in the playoffs. Just was a classic from 17 to 21, 17 points a game, 37% from three. And another guy who when you watched him internationally seemed way more dangerous than he

“did in the NBA, who was the next GM that gave him that contract?”

The Nick, uh, who was it? It was before Leon and, and yeah, whoever that was it, wall, Scott Perry. Oh, Perry. Yeah, that was bad. Well, anyway, we're, we're, we're just only asking him for some six man stuff.

I had the, I've never been down to.

He had a few years in a row there where you look at the numbers and if you didn't know about him, you know, I feel like, you know, years from now, we'll have to contextualize that for the younger generation. Look, this 40. He got seems pretty good.

And then, uh, there's another guy who should go over this guy, but I'm going to take only because I need, I need another big guy. I've seen him in big games. He killed Joe House's team once. Kelly Oleneck.

He did do that. From 2015 to 23, he was a 10 and 5, 37% from 3 and 22 minutes a game. And he was basically the seventh man on a conference finalist in 2017. So you could win with him. Um, I, my daughter, one of, one of, uh, her first favorite players used to come father Kelly,

thought he looked like a priest in a, in a kid's show. Um, and then he tried to break Kevin loves Obo for some reason in 2015, which is pretty weird. And probably changed the course of the finals, but, um, I forgot that he signed with Miami as a fridge and two.

He called church, tried to step in on him.

Left the 2017 Celtics.

He called church came flying in on top rope farm.

Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In fact, I had him on House of Carbs, you did when he was playing for for Miami. Yeah.

And he was there. Oh, no, it was just after he left Miami. He really liked playing for Spau. He really liked playing for Spau. He's like, that guy is smart.

Everyone loves Spau. All right. House, you're up again, Bo. You have Davis, Go Bear, Odebo, Drum and Crowder, and Porter. Well, I have a couple of guys that have a tendency to call it some games.

I have, I'm not going to do it. Nope. I need, I need some front court fill in. Oh. And I'm looking up my list.

The guy that's played the most games of anybody on here remaining is your mom said ran. Oh, yeah. What? What?

He was in the 11th round. He was in the 11th round. He was in the 11th round. Oh, okay. I knew I fucking knew House was going to cheat. And that's like, no, you have him on this, this, this, this, this, more clearly.

And now he took a year. He took a year. He was in the 11th draft. We, okay. He was drafted.

This is the 11th draft we did. Yeah. I wanted to do that team, but yeah, can't do it. Um, okay. Then I'll just take Patrick Beverly.

That's fine. I have a certain key counts either. Does it count either? Wait. I need to look at who's in these drafts.

He, there was his first year.

House, just take Tim Hardaway Jr. Okay. He's the best guy in the board. I'll take him. Another shooter for you.

Weirdest team. Tim Hardaway Jr. Career 14 points again. 37% from three. Your team needed to see the shooting.

He's there to help Miami. Now, he's the shooter for Miami. But how did he get to Miami?

“I'm just asking, just ask and how did he get there?”

I'm a short deal. That's weird. I'm excited for the response to this. Kyle, man. You're up.

Well, Tim Hardaway's off the board. I'm so crestfallen. I don't know if I can continue. Um, I have five draftable guys left. So this is perfect.

Hmm. There's a sneaky one that we haven't mentioned. That is on here. I don't think I'm going to take him. I don't think I should take a big.

I should probably just go BPA here. I'll go with. I'm going to go with the microwave guy. You would not have expected me to do this. I don't think I'm going to take Terence Ross.

I just stole him from me. I'd like that. Damn it. I thought that I was going to get away with it. Terence Ross.

This is one of my words. Yeah. This is most likely to resurface with a social media clip. It was a problem. Oh, yeah.

I was going back. That's true. And I actually actually started making the highlight real. So I'm going to put that out here soon. He had some, he was just a lather score man.

He could get going. I'm not going to lean on him hard. Come in and score some points. You know, spackle for me. That's all I need.

He played 11 years in average 11 a game and was a good 36 points percentage from three.

“But I think is most famously was just thrown into every fake trade rummer for like four years.”

When he was in Toronto, it was always like, and Terence Ross and if they, and just always seemed

to be floating around as contract was he's making 10 million year for like five years and his contract always fit with other contracts. Now, this is the right time to take him. Who's your other pick? Oh, with my other pick.

This is going to be your last pick. You have a game, drama and CJ Barnes, Adams, Coventin and Terence Ross, one more. I wanted to take set curry. Do you have a Kentucky guy yet? No.

I'm not that biased. If it's the right pick, it's the right pick. Oh, it's a nerlin. You've taken nerlins? No.

No, I'm saying. You were talking about the draft footage. It was the nerlin sad face draft footage was pretty brutal during that broadcast. I got to say I was not a fan heading into that draft. I didn't even know I knew the town was there.

I didn't, I just don't like skinny big guys like that. And it didn't seem like he could shoot at all. He was a shop block or not a real check. He just chased everything. It's like, "Will Barton?"

I don't think so. Let's see. It's a shit sandwich here. I'll take Mason plumbly as my backup. Oh, man.

Thank God. I was going to take him. No interest whatsoever. I was going to have, because then Kelly Olinic would add somebody a little bit. Mason plumbly.

“I think we had both plumblies were available in the mega draft.”

Because they were in the, one was in 2012.

He was in 2013. Drafted by Brooklyn.

First 10 years, nine and seven house, 23 minutes again.

Yeah. He would have fit in on your team. All right. How's your, your last pick is what? Good.

Seth Curry. I like the character. I like his golf game. He's the worst carrot curry at golf. That makes me feel better.

I know that he and I would get along great. His three point shooting percentage is effing phenomenal. I mean, this guy had a, you know, a single elite skill. Yeah. It was making mostly open three pointers.

Yeah.

That's a really important role.

And he played it for, you know, he turned that into a lengthy career for himself. Seth Curry. I feel good about that as a lot. Really good pick. Married to our beloved Kelly Curry.

Beloved. Sun and law of our beloved DAC Rivers. Beloved. Brother love Austin Rivers. So we also love, but yeah, that's great spot for him.

“And I honestly, I couldn't be happier because I liked the team that I have.”

I was really hoping I could take this guy as the last pick. He's lived on beyond his basketball career. In other ways. On the rewatchables, we have a category named after him. The fanwaders for best he check.

He was a beloved Grandland guy. And a beloved ringer guy for a couple years, too. 13 points of game in eight years. The only played four and a 19 games. And one of ring on the lakers as a bench guy.

Deonwaders, I thought it would be great if he was the last pick in the draft and somehow this worked out. I wrote my draft IRA. Cleveland took him forth. I wrote, they just tapped explosive Syracuse guard. Deonwaders said in themselves up for an easy.

Anytime you could take the biggest six man in the year with the fourth pick in the NBA draft, you have to do it, joke. That was kind of it.

He was always destined to be a six man.

And I still like his game. I actually think his career should have been better, Kyle. I like physical scoring guard. I remember when I was doing all the pods with KD, we talked about him for like five minutes. And one of the pods where I was like, because he played with him.

Okay, see, it was like, why isn't Deonwaders?

“Why aren't we talking about him as like an all-star?”

I think he was one of those guys all the other players really respected, but could just never put it together. There's like that Chuck Yackins award where you talked to other players. And I'm dropping some random 90s names on this show. But like, you listen to other players talk and they'd be like, yeah, Chuck, a play. And here in the NBA players, we like, came reddish as another dude like that.

And then they just don't stick for whatever reason. I feel like the ultimate culmination of all of this for the ringer is if we could get some film director out there that that listens to this show to put Deonwaders in a movie and one scene. To be the Deonwaders? Yeah.

Maybe you really goes for it. Yeah, I think it might tear a hole in the space time continuum. But this is like, yeah, it seems like a good idea to me. I honestly, that's a great idea. So the two guys that didn't get drafted that I thought might were Jeremy Lamb and will Barton. And will Barton probably should have been drafted, but it was more fun to take.

Except Aaron Baines role player. Oh, it's just saying, yeah, if we gone 10 man rosters. All right, here are the final rosters. Kyle Mann, Dame, Drainman, McCallum, Barnes, Adams, Coveington, Terrence Ross, Mason plumbly. So you have, you have size, you have shooting.

I guess you're turning the team around the two, the two Portland guards. Coveington as a shut down guy. I kind of like that team. House has, Anthony Davis and go bear, Ola Deepo, Drummond, Jake Crowder, Otto Porter, Hardaway Junior and Seth Curry.

“I think he's tanking for the 2014 draft.”

I'm playing, I want to be in the relegation zone like Brooklyn. Oh, wait, they can't, they can't get the pick. All right, go ahead. I have Yannis, my team is Yannis, Bill, Middleton, KCP, Schroeder, Forty-A, Olinic, and then Dianne Waders, that's my eighth man.

So we're going to have to, we'll do a social media graphic. We're going to open up to the people and we'll have both. My team can beat your team. I like Jake Kyle Mann's team is the best team. It's a pretty good team.

And my team is definitely the worst. We'll see if people agree. I think we don't get you guys. That's a very good. You're good.

I have a very good deep sense of team. This is fun. I mean, how sad is it that we had two drafts together. And by the end of it, the last round was plumbly, Seth Curry and Dianne Waders. It's like we couldn't even get the 25 guys.

But then Jeremy Lam, we forgot to mention, was the Linchpan of the James Harden trade. He's Jeremy Lam, Kevin Martin, and the 12th pick.

Did I screw that up before?

Yeah, Harden was gone already. I screwed that up.

“When we were talking Kyle about the 2012 Thunder.”

Yeah. No, he was on the 12th team. He was traded in 13, right? Adams was in the 12th. Adams was in the 12th.

I didn't screw that up then. No, Adams, I did screw that up. Adams was in the 13. Yes, they had already made that trade. Because they made that trade in the 2012 final.

It was going into the 12th 13th. Yeah, that 12 pick was one of the things they got in the history. I'll clarify that. Any last thoughts, House? No, I'm glad to be done with this.

But he didn't have a good time. Jesus Christ. Huh? You didn't have fun? No, I had a great time.

I'm just saying, we got to a point in this draft. You just spread the names off. Like, whatever. Honestly, it could have been. Just guys, name and dudes.

There is. It's right. You're the gang. Can't believe you didn't get taken. I can believe it.

Michael Carter Wames won the rookie of the year. Didn't get taken in a 24 hour pick draft. Incredible. I'd rather have Mo-Harkless. Anthony Mo-Harkless didn't get taken.

Rob. Roberson didn't get taken. Austin Rivers didn't get taken. John Hanson. Michael Scala.

Yeah. Tomas Santoranski. Yeah. Kid Gilgrass. Had a million people.

All right. I don't remember. Guys, a true pleasure. Thank you.

It's always for being on the mega draft.

We're going to take a break. Come back with just a bear right after this. This meal bag is brought to you by chat GPT. The Bill Simmons podcast AI sponsor. Yeah.

You heard me. Chat GPT. He helped me very recently. Sift through this Portland Trailblazer situation that we're about to talk about with just a barrier.

And I was going to do a meal bag segment just all the way through for this. But I'm going to read one Portland email. And then we'll talk to barrier. This is from Fred. Huge kudos for continuing to call attention to Tom Dundins, extremely transparent

plants to cheap out on the blazers. Piss off the good people, Portland, and eventually move them somewhere else. But there's a lingering big question for you.

“What happened to your regular use of El Chipo when referring to Dundin?”

This is one of the most elite nicknames we've ever had for a sports team owner. And every time you see made a laugh, why did you retire it? Did Dundin send you a cease and the list? Only it was a low budget lower amount of cease and the list printed on a square of single plaid Sharmin just keeps going going.

I did not retire El Chipo. I actually forgot to keep calling them El Chipo. So we're going to bring barrier. And I'm going to make a bunch of El Chipo comments. But so this was, this is a one question mail bag because we're covering the blazers and

El Chipo. I just embarrassed here. You can hear him on the ringer and BA show. He pops on the ringer website for fun time. We've been working together for a long time.

And a couple years ago, barrier moved to Portland, Oregon. And I talked about it on a mail bag recently. I'm really horrified by this trailblazers situation. I'm not against relocation. If basketball just doesn't and hasn't worked in an NBA city and if the history is messed up

or there's real reasons to do it. Portland, I used to call them the soccer moms, it was the only team in town. They generally love them.

“They won the 1977 title, which I think once you win a title, you should never have to leave.”

And they get this new owner, Tom Dundin, aka El Chipo, buys the team. Just had a lot of success with Carolina hurricanes, wins the Stanley Cup. At the same time, he is seemingly torpedoing his relationship with the city of Portland

and trying to get out of a lease that ends basically right before the season would start in

2030. And we could talk about some ramifications. Before we get in anything, just give me the mood and pour them right now because I know this is a big topic. Yeah, I mean, the blazers are obviously a huge deal here.

And I think there would be more excitement about the upcoming season if Dundin started to serve dead cat and the concessions. And that was the only option because he is just taken what was a pretty good momentum going in off of last postseason, going into this season with a team is really competitive. We'll see about long-term ceiling.

But there was like clearly something brewing after a couple of years of just going through the tanking process. And all of that is gone to the point where like on a daily basis, at this point, everyone

that he can get a good deal and if he doesn't get it, he's going to go wherever he can get it. And he's done all kinds of money cutting stuff, which if we did case by case, some of it,

it's like, all right, yeah, maybe coaches should make 30 billion for five years and you

fire them after one. But he's agged the other way and it's like, I'm going to pay my coach for one year. We're not going to have a lot of assistance. I'm going to, I don't really want to pay a lot for my broadcasters. Why do we have this many salespeople and just goes through and just chops it, which is what

he did in Carolina. The difference here is the arena and the language that he's been using. And the phrase first class experience is the phrase we're using where it seems like they're latching on to that as a way to get out of this. And there's a backstory with it where the Allen family, that owned it, they gave the arena

to the city of Portland. They sold it to them for one dollar. It's Portland, owns the arena. It's allegedly not a state of the art arena anymore. It's you've been there a bunch of times.

I've been there since 2010. You can see if you see the arena itself, their sweets are pretty high. I don't know.

“Do they need, do they that badly need a new arena, which you take on that?”

I think it depends on who you talk to. If you're talking to MBA players and people throughout the league who are used to a certain metropolitan lifestyle and just a sort of class of like new stuff going on, I do think it probably pales and compares into that. I'm on the same mindset as you probably.

I actually think the Zag in modern sports is actually to go something with a little bit more history and just like you could feel the way of previous teams that have gone by because they put new big screens in there last year. And certainly that adds a little bit of lustre to it, but like it's fine as an arena, I just don't know what people expect from an arena experience.

You're going there to see the game not to see all these flashing lights and these big screens there. But if you were to talk to people who are used to going to other arenas, they would say like, "All right. It hasn't hasn't been renovated since I think it was built originally and it probably

is behind sort of where things have been moving." Mid-90s, there's a whole new wave of arenas that are better and more sweet friendly.

“I remember, and I think I remember this correctly, they built it so the seats are closer”

to the court because I don't have hockey. So it's tight and I like that they weren't, I just thought like you're surrounded by fans and because the sweets are higher, I thought the experience itself was going there was great, but obviously he's not going to care about that. There's been a lot of good stuff written about this and I've tried to read as much of

it as possible, basically can they relocate and what are the rules to that and could

he just do it and basically be like, "Come sue me like, I'll David's basically in the Raiders." The biggest thing that seems to be working against him is that that least expires literally right before the 2030 seasons start, '231, the least expires on October 11th, but you have to file for a relocation before that if you're going to switch teams and there's all

this stuff in the least that's like, if you file for a relocation huge penalties, we can sue you all this stuff. So he'd almost have to figure it out and I remember Seattle, no, Oklahoma City, we're in a little bit of a situation somewhere where you had the limbo year in the arena, but

“everybody knows you're leaving and if he's going to leave, I think that would be one outcome.”

The other one is he could just be like, "Make up shit, just be like, we're moving." And then test the NBA, which nobody has done for a long time. No, they just been like, "We're moving. This is my franchise. It's a free country.

I'll do it. I want. We haven't seen that in forever." Yeah, that's where I wonder where the NBA's position in all of this is.

I don't think that they can come out publicly because Adam Silver basically answers to

the owners. They are basically his boss and come out and basically undercut Dundins leverage and negotiations and basically put out there that he's not going to let them go to Seattle or Vegas. I think the assumption is that those are off the market and then the other options just don't seem all that attractive, but I don't think Silver can come out and say that.

I'm curious how much soft power he's wielding behind the scenes, how much other owners are saying things to perhaps chill the situation. In a weird way, I think the most optimism I feel is that Dundin has proven to be such a transparent cut throat maniac because ultimately he's looking for the best deal. I think that Portland isn't in a position.

They really don't have any leverage to not give him that. There's been a lot of bluster suggesting that they're going to try to push back on certain things you've seen in recent days. This first class contingency that became a big sticking point, it was in the previous

It really doesn't hold much bearing on things going forward. As you mentioned, it's part of the bridge agreement that they signed in 2024 under the Allen ownership trust in order to just get them to the next deal. But if anything, it seems like Dundin is just causing a stir over anything because he just wants them to be commit to the deal that he thought that they had a handshake agreement

with to begin with. It's tough to really reconcile because on the one hand, your logic reigns like,

well, Portland's going to concede and give him $573 million to renovate in arena that

by the way, he said, wasn't first class, which is why he needed the renovations to begin with. But on the other hand, he keeps bringing up these nuts, so things just to throw them off like kilter and to just sort of make things messy and chaotic in order to get his way. And maybe his way is just to go out of town.

So it's hard to really reconcile the logic of it and just his general approach to things. That's tough because ultimately he has the nuclear bomb card. Yeah, if I leave, go look at Seattle. Seattle hasn't had a team since 2008. What is Portland if we don't have the blazers, right?

This happened to the wailers in the NHL, where the wailers left Hartford, they moved Carolina ironically. And then Hartford, it's like, well, now you have AAA baseball in your kind of an area

“SPN and that's, that's what Hartford is.”

Like, you need these teams, like they give you this credit. Look who would happen on the OKC, just getting the thunder, like it completely transformed that city. So Portland has that piece. They also have a ton of history.

They've had the team since 1970, the greatest sportsbook of all time was about to show a wazers.

They've always had moments of relevancy, they made the finals in 1992.

They had some fun stuff that happened, like during the day, Mara, that's Brandon Roy, cup of coffee, maybe something happened, and pretty famously, a lot of bad luck with, you know, but Walt and Sam Bowie, Greg Oden, like, they've just been in the mix in all these ways. If I was a wazer fan, I'd be really nervous because there's two things that conspiracy

bill is noted.

“One is that you said the word chaotic, which I think is a good way to frame it.”

He also hasn't said anything or done anything, like, literally not one thing that would endure himself to anybody in the city, right? It almost seems like he's, it's like watching, like, marriage story with Adam Driver and Scarlet Johansson, where they're just, both of them want to break up and are just being as mean as possible to each other, except in this case, it's only him.

He doesn't seem to care about perception and repercussions of anything, and then I think you said the NBA had to stay quiet. I don't know if I agree, like, I, like, where's Adam sober being, like, look, we don't want the team to move out of Portland. We've had the, a team there since 1970, and they have awesome fans, like, that is not

going to be an acceptable solution for me. He just hasn't said anything, and it's very similar to the stern thing. You could see where he was thinking in the mid-2000s, and I was talking about it in the moment, writing about it, where it felt like he almost wanted to make Seattle an example. Like, if you don't invest in, in your arena and your team, they might leave.

That might be how this goes, like, they kind of did that in Sacramento too. They brought this, but that came in and committed to building a new arena, or else they would have left, and it just feels to me, like, a little bit of a hostage situation. How badly do you love your kid?

“Here's, here's what it will cost, or you might never see your kid again, right?”

Like, that, this is, like, really brutal stuff, I think. Yeah, one of my favorite things about sports is just kind of the, the relationship between the community and the sports team itself. Yeah. Like, it's one thing if the Grizzlies are successful.

It's another team when that team, like, embodies the spirit of the city and the grit and grind thing, and they're basically have this almost symbiotic nature where they're playing off of each other. Like, that's a special thing, and especially in modern times, where like, community is pretty fragmented at this point, really only is internet, sort of community and culture,

and, like, some of the particular quirks of food and just the way dialect and everything else have almost been sanded down to, like, you don't really have anything. Like, I honestly believe in this might sound polyanish, like, sports are really the only thing that we have left, and that matters everywhere, and matters particularly important than where the blazer is really the only game in town, no offense to, like, the timbers

or the thorns or the fire who just started playing this year. It's like, this is a blazer's town and it courses through the vein of this city, especially when they're good.

Like, Dame has a relationship with Portland, and, like, I've never seen it before.

It's more a small market Kobe that is, a typical superstar with your team, and Dundin has proven that he does not give a shit about any of this stuff.

base that he's going to have to even, he does decide to stay, try to get them to buy back into the team when he's proven that he doesn't want anything to do with it. He's just pissed off everyone and pissed over all of the history and everything that anybody cares about.

And he brought the wailers before the first day after they ratified his agreement.

He has the team in his possession. He goes down to LA to watch them play against the clippers in his first game as the go-to owner. He's wearing a wailer's hat, which is just like a such a fuck you symbol to everybody. He wasn't the one to move the wailers, but anybody who knows as you just laid out, that

was such like a craven pull of a team from a city that got left in the dust and hasn't been able to recover ever since. I was asking around trying to figure out, why would he even buy this team, like a question, like he's rich, right? He has a bunch of money.

Obviously, he's a competitive guy and he's done, it seems like a good job of the hurricanes,

“which is a completely different league, or all these leagues are different, right?”

The w, the challenges of owning a W MBA team versus an MBA team versus an NHL team. We're just dealing with completely different things. I don't understand why you would buy this team if you weren't buying into the community around the team in this city.

It's basically like, it's like somebody buying a house on a street because you like

the street, not the house, it's like, ah, right, as soon as I move in, I'm knocking that thing down. But as you're buying, you're like, no, no, I love it. I love the upstairs. The back yard's great, but in the back yard, I'm going to fucking take this thing down.

And my fear for people in Portland is that he looked at what the expansion numbers would be, which everybody's saying between seven and eight. And he's like, ah, I could just steal Portland for 4.25, whatever it ended up being. And then I'll just move them somewhere else. And yeah, I think Kansas City is, I mentioned them a couple weeks ago, and I think I was

the first one to mention it. First of all, Kansas City can make an argument, they maybe should have a team. Like, they're, they've really grown, they have a state of the art arena, they've hosted big events.

“I think the city's grown, they're in a part of the country that they don't really have.”

Like, you know, I think they would help, they'd help with conference alignment, but I wouldn't wouldn't be Portland. And what's dangerous about Kansas City is they'll take any team, right? Seattle, Portland's not moving the Seattle. Seattle doesn't want the trailblazers.

They have a long rivalry in a history, and they know what it's like when you lose the team. I don't think they're going to want that. They didn't really want Sacramento either. They want, like, an expansion team. But I think Kansas City would be the one I'd be worried about, especially one of the minority

owners is the St. Louis guy. Dundance from Dallas, that's another thing that doesn't add up. You're from Dallas, you own Carolina, why are you buying the trailblazers, right? So that conspiracy bill, there's just a lot to work with with this, and none of it is really that good for the city.

Yeah, I would always be like if they were only 30 houses in existence, and you just

wanted one of those houses, no matter where it was, and he's just decided that like I just want one of these, and I will take it wherever best suits my preferences. That was just really good. That's what they did to the Sonics. They were like, we're able to get in and we'll move them back to this is our master plan

all up. Yeah, and it just like really brings up a really chilling proposition for the NBA, where everything is gotten, the money has become so big now where everything is bigger business than it even was when I first started covering the league almost 20 years ago. Yeah.

It just, it just feels like we're getting with, especially with all this VC money coming in, all the salty money slowly trickling into the league and some of this other stuff happening, where it's just becoming more for profit, nakedly, in a way that I wasn't really ever

“familiar with in sports, and it's almost like, what do you want from our franchise?”

Maybe Kansas City deserves a team, maybe Austin deserves a team. I know that they've been mentioned. I don't see how that would work with San Antonio being like, Austin's not getting a team. I think the spurs are more likely they expand in Austin and play games there. They're not putting a team 75 miles from the spurs.

It makes no sense. And so like I get that there might be slightly more attractive markets, but what does the NBA ultimately want? Portland has driven revenue when the team is good. Is there, like, diehard fans that support the team?

This isn't somewhere like New Orleans where I was for two years covering that team, where they had to try so hard just to drive interest to get people out there. When the team is good in Portland, people show up. It matters here. And so like, maybe if Seattle is coming, they're just like, oh, we don't need to Pacific

North West teams. That's the really only case I can make for it. Otherwise, this is a shining example of a small market franchise. And as we've seen with the new CBA coming in, Adam's whole position is like, I want to make it so everybody can win, how can you strip out a small market team and go to your

It's not for everybody. It's actually then just becomes about the biggest market in the biggest profit. Yeah. I've had people ask me over the last couple of weeks because they could tell I was kind of mad about this Portland thing.

“Like, well, why don't you stick up for New Orleans the same way?”

And I think the difference is we still don't have evidence that the NBA works in New Orleans. And you could blame the owners, you could blame the city, it's not a big enough market.

Whatever you want to say, but it's just never worked.

And despite the fact that they have, you know, a good handful, I don't know how many 1000 fans, um, I don't think that franchise has ever been successful there. And we're going back to the 70s. They moved there already. You covered the team and we've talked about this on pods before together.

There's no nothing you can point to and be like, see, no, no, for those three years, that's when it was kicking ass. It's just never worked. And I'm not sure they should have an NBA team. I feel way differently about Portland.

Even Memphis, you mentioned earlier, like, Memphis, if you're doing this over again, Memphis isn't getting into the team. That team's in Nashville. That's just the way it's going to go. But Memphis is proven that they can be a really awesome, small market franchise.

And that team is ingrained with that city in a really unique way. I don't, I don't, I don't, wouldn't say they should move either.

“New Orleans would be the one I think you have to look at, unfortunately.”

Yeah, New Orleans has the pride, but it never really had the bones and basketball or any

of the success needed to drive any sort of energy in that city. There have been, like, flirtations with being a good team, but the best they've done is that team with Brandon Ingram were they, they've like, they challenged the sons and the first round. And they were fun and scrappy and young, but then that quickly petered out.

And so they really never hit the, the stretch of success that they would need in order to get people engaged regularly. And so there've just been a lot of teases that haven't amounted to anything. Also, anything. It's a football.

It's Pearl and College football is what they care about in the world. Which is fine. Yeah. But when I was there, like, LSU gymnastics sometimes would rate better than the pelicans. Right.

It was brutal. Right.

One thing I did here was that, um, because I, one of the things I was fastened

by is like, why did they let the sky by the team? Why, why, why, let L cheapo get in there. And apparently they only had two offers because, um, because the price of these teams in general have gone up. And then the arena deal was dicey and it's a smaller, smaller market.

And then the city is definitely, you know, it's been a little topsy turbid there for the last 10 years. And I just don't think there are a lot of people that wanted to buy it. Yeah. And that gets into the whole conspiracy theory about how much the real villain in the situation is really Jody Allen who took over for Paul Allen after he died because she was

kind of the steward of the trust here. And there was an offer years ago from Phil Knight, obviously, a local guy who wanted to invest in the area. And he's getting up in the age and as you've seen with Oregon really wants to inject money into the area.

Yeah. It's really, all he cares about seemingly. And it petered out quickly because the trust viewed it as a low ball. And it was also leaked to media and they didn't like the approach that he took. And that was kind of the end of the story.

Otherwise, it was just this most recent patch here where it was the Dundin group and Raj sports was also owns, I believe the thunder, excuse me, the thorns and the fire. And I think there might be orders for the kings as well.

“And they went with, with Dundin and you have to wonder if the bridge agreement lease,”

didn't have any protections in it to keep the team in Portland to make sure that next owners would still be in Portland in Portland was set up so that someone could do exactly what Dundin is doing. And you have to start to wonder what was really in it for Jody or the trust because all that money is just going to go to charity.

And so why did she set this up so that the team wouldn't just be here and provide? Well, they haven't said that. They got snuckered a little bit. And this is so somewhere to me to Howard Schultz and Seattle in the mid 2000s when he just decided he had to sell the team and he was frustrated with the city.

And he sold it to this group that clearly was a dangerous threat to move it to Oklahoma city. And he said, fuck it, I'll do it. Anyway, I just want to get out of this. And when we did the sonic boom podcast, he was the secret villain of the sonic's leaving

because he kind of knew what he was doing. It's like, if you're selling your house or your condo to somebody who's clearly going to knock down the house, you're going to have a moment where you're like, do it. How much do I love my house? Like, this guy's going to come in and knock it down.

I conspiracy bill also enjoys the Dallas piece of this with Dundin. And is wondering if there's the any possibility to have a franchise swap, which we had not had for a long time with Dallas and that whole situation, which has been terrible.

the Vegas expansion team. But I just I just wonder if he bought this team partly as like a chess piece for some bigger move, whether it's moving at Kansas City or St. Louis. I don't see NBA and St. Louis make zero sense to me, um, Paul, just people and say, Louis, sorry, but I don't see it.

But Dallas is that's that's the one that I'm like, huh, this guy's from Dallas.

“This is Dallas is I also why didn't he just buy Dallas?”

Well, does that mean that we in Portland get Cooper flagged, I can tell you the one things swap for us? Yeah, because one thing that would energize the local economy would be the great white hope coming to Portland. They'll go like the long 50 years later.

Yeah, it's right. Happen and yeah, so only two people wanted the team apparently and and the arena thing is the biggest obstacle you mentioned something earlier though about the new types of owners that are coming into the league. And this is this happen in soccer, football is a little different because it's almost

like it seems like these super rich families are moving in because it's but in basketball you, if you have the most money, you could basically make this party arson. This is something the Fenway sports group did where they bought the penguin, they had the red socks, they bought the penguins, they bought Liverpool and they're just kind of these rich stewards of the team.

You saw the Premier League almost get upended by all the money came in of people who weren't like traditional owners. And what you said earlier like I do wonder is that we're heading in the NBA, people who they want to sit courtside and seem like a big shot and they just had a shitload of money

to spend and they know the one thing that always goes up is the sports franchise.

And this is just who we're looking at next 20 years. People that don't care about a connection to the city. It's also in direct contrast with what silver is proclaiming he wants the league to be about, which is these small markets we're putting in the second apron so that you don't have to spend over a certain limit.

And that's the thing I don't really understand about this whole dungeon scenario because they keep proclaiming like if they can't make money here, the areas dealing with economic

“struggles, which is very true and like not something that I think anyone here would dispute.”

But one, the team has always done reasonably well considering its market size and the passion of its fan. And two, they're not spending money on the team. They brought in John Moran and a cash neutral deal. They didn't spend their mid-level exception, he's not going above and beyond, they're not

even at the tax.

It's not the first apron in the second apron, he's not even at the luxury tax at this

point. And so it's just like his whole thing was coming into subprime money and like that's his business. He's operating it more like someone that needs to really ring everything out of assets, which is why they went and swung the John Moran trade. They saw someone they can get for cheap hopefully that he could turn into something down

the road. This isn't like big money coming in and we're just going to muscle everybody around. If anything, there were real concerns and rumors about whether or not this guy actually had the money to buy into the first place because I believe he had to sell peace of his NHL franchise in order to do it.

And so it's just really all over the place. And I just don't know who this serves other than done it. All of this goes back to him getting what he wants and getting the best deal for himself. I don't see how anybody else the NBA Portland fans add himself or actually benefits for him being in this position.

It's one of the most perplexing things about professional sports is when people buy a team. And either don't take care of it, don't have the proper TLC or don't seem like they seem like they care how they're perceived by the fan base.

And the answer is what we said before, like he probably thought this was a good asset.

Probably leverage himself to buy it. And now is trying to bring out all the fat costs so that he can try to make a more profitable. This is something somebody said to me when the media deal happened, that knows shit about like these rich guy circles is like these teams are becoming so prohibitively expensive

to purchase. And this person was telling me, I think we're going to see stuff. We haven't seen in the league in a long time, like the almost like back to the 70s and 80s with some of the cost cutting and weird trades. And by the way, we've been seeing it.

“And I honestly don't think that's why the Celtics traded Jayland because if you look”

at the money standpoint, it didn't save the money for two of the three years, right? It's just they get out of that money in your three. But it was weird, you know, and the stuff with the lake or even what they just did and the stuff they put together, and the Wall Street Journal reports at Mark Walter are definitely

wondering, and that's like a heavy leverage team, I just, I don't know who's coming into the league.

And so we're just time for owners since like the 70s, when basically you and I could

have about a team in the 70s, people like I meant this guy at the antennas, he has money, I think we bought the Quippers. But now it's, I don't know, I don't know who these owners are going to be. And then those are the guys who are on the committees, they're on the relocation committee, they're on the media committee, they're on the expansion committee, they're on the rules

committee. And in the old days, they were people that really cared about the league and the sport.

“And I don't, are we still going to have that next generation of owners?”

I don't know. Yeah, it was like, it was stark when Parabot the Grizzlies originally, because that was

like one of the first instances of tech money, really filtering in beyond the big markets.

And I think people took note of that, like, oh, things are changing here, this isn't a mom and pop shop, but I think the Walter deal with the Lakers was like the clears indication of a family run business, one of the last few we have in this league, feeding it to a guy who is just ungodly wealthy and also backed by other money where we have to really start to question the source of it.

And that's the whole thing, things have been nipping at the fringes of this for a very long time, just kind of under the shot of darkness. And like the league has like restrictions in place, and so that VC money can't be a certain percentage of this and all other stuff. But it's clearly eating away at things.

And I do have to wonder if we're reaching a tipping point where we have an owner coming in without the money in order to really, perhaps, do this. And then just completely strip mining it in order to run it as if it is a bare minimum proposition. And then complaining about not getting enough money to run an arena or else he'll just go wherever he wants.

“Like this is a pretty bad black eye for the NBA and honestly, this is a pretty troubling”

stretch for the NBA pretty much this entire year with the tanking and everything like that. Honestly, Adam Silver has been in a crossroads for a while. I think this is really the moment where we really figure out if he's long for this position and like really what the rest of his legacy is going to be like, because he came into this with a lot of fanfare by kicking out, kicking out Sterling and doing a couple things that I think a lot of people

celebrated, which were in retrospect pretty easy wins. Yeah, he's had a lot of big problems and frankly, I've disagreed with practically all of them and this one more than any of them. Yeah, and it's as a commissioner, the bigger legacy here is, what do you stand for and who do you want to be?

Right, Gaddell and the NFL is pretty clear from day one, he's like, we are, you know, the most unstoppable business in America and everything is going to be about profits. And if we have to add games and, you know, jeopardize our players that we're doing it, if it's 17 games, 18 games, we're going, and that's worked for him and that's, at least we know who he is and what he cares about silver, the first five years, I really thought was more

in the, I'm not stern, I'm not like David Stern, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be more of a connector to the players and the owners and, um, here's my phone number and so yeah, I'm going to go, I'm going to do, I did the song conference thing with him in 2018, he was talking about, you know, really being concerned about the player's mental health and, um, and lately the last couple years, it just seems like finance revenue, money, finance driven is the job and I don't know

“if that's the job, I think the job's a whole bunch of things. In this case, you should care about Portland,”

a team that's about to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the title and, um, and a city, honestly, that kind of needs the team. You mentioned some of the stuff that's happened the last 10, 12 years, like, uh, I don't know, this would, this would be a really bad one and I, I don't have a good feeling

about it. I don't have like an incredible amount of insight info, but I, everything that's happened

this doesn't feel like posturing to me. This feels like somebody who's already decided, I either want to get the team out of here or, or bend them over a barrel and get them to pay all this stuff to basically make me want to stay. And those are the two, those are his two moves and neither move is good for Portland. Yeah, I think the, the only case for optimism is that he's just like sort of a Craven carpet bagger who only wants a good deal. Right. I do think that the Portland will ultimately

can see because I just don't see where they have any points of leverage because as you mentioned, like what is Portland without the players, I can say? Yeah, they are. There's, there are, are companies just leaving left and right. Things just haven't been great. Downtown is kind of a ghost town. I still love Portland's why I moved here to begin with, but it just seems like that is going to be the inevitable case. And so if they do end up signing the 20 year lease, that will be something.

I wonder like what the relationship with the city and the team will be from that point forward.

around the, along the way because it's one thing if in five years they can be sued for going out. But if he managed to wrangle provisions in this next deal, let's say they sign a 20 year lease, but there are outs and there's no longer a threat of litigation and he can leave in 15 years or

10 years and it's just easier for him. I am starting to worry that that is ultimately his long-term

goal because ultimately he just wants the best financial product. And if he doesn't think that's

“going to happen in Portland, then I think he's going to find his way in order to get that.”

Now, I hate to say it, but just fundamentally for your life, it doesn't make sense to him, teams in Carolina in Portland and be based in Dallas. That's right. Whereas like if you move the blazers to a place like Kansas City, um, everything's a little closer to the stuff I care about. So I don't know, just it feels like he bought the team because the price was you're buying in four, four billions around a good price for just buying into the league with the media deal,

with the expansion fees coming. You're buying up in a league that the arrow still seems to be pointing up and he just he got in and probably fooled some people. We'll see how it goes. We're staying on this one because and if you if you go and you Google the stories about it, there's like new stories basically every two or three days of like some new revelation or something. We'll see how it

“goes. All right, what was your favorite move of the NBA move of the summer?”

Oh, um, I mean LeBron for the minimum probably not counting LeBron for four billion dollars.

Everything that's happened, I haven't been like whoa, it's more I minor stuff like the clippers just getting really much more for two for 14 as I got solid deal. I like that one, but nothing like life balltering. I mean am I allowed to mention jail and brown going to the six or six also? Yeah, I would say that I would say that what the sixers did is pretty an impeachable considering they paid virtually nothing and went from last year. We were wondering

whether or not VJ and Maxi would just be cool together like that would be a fun product to watch as we waited for and be to come back onto the court to what could possibly be the best team in Eastern Conference. So I probably check that box. Yeah, there's been it's really been more of like I don't understand why that team is playing it this way. I don't understand what that team just did. Like there's been way more of those than whoa, I see the vision. I liked what it landed it

I thought just kind of building around the fringes and bringing everybody back, but grabbing people from okay C. And now we're in the stage now as we head into into the iads of August.

“What's the what's the dog days of August? What do we say for August dog days of August?”

It's a barge of March. Yeah. We're now in Benethan, Mathur and Benethan, Mathur and Peyton Watson territory. Update, Mathurans met with. So yeah, it's it's time for the NBA to go away for a little bit. All right. Camingo zone. Yeah, Camingo. Can we get Camingo in the minimum? We'll see how it goes. All right. Varier. We can listen to you on the ringer NBA show with the crew. How did I have the first year with Kyle Mango new guy? It's pretty good. Yeah. I thought everything worked out really well.

Learned a lot about synergy stats that I never would have been able to understand. How many stats?

Kyle's right on it. Yeah. All right. Sad everybody important them for us. Thanks, Varier. Thanks for coming on, Varier. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Today's meal bag, which we will have another good run next week was brought to by chat GPT work. Chat GPT work helps you work even harder. Well, chat GPT works on your projects. You still call the plays so you're always in control. Put chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Try chat GPT work in chat GPT today available in plus and pro plans.

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to house and Kyle and Varier and Eduardo and Gahal. Don't forget, new rewatchables coming on Monday, Karate Kid 2. 40th anniversary, by the way. I forgot to mention that part as well. How has it been 40 years since we wondered what the hell was going on with Miyagi and Daniel Son for real for the first time? That's it for the pot. I'm definitely going to have one midweek. So stay tuned for that and we'll slowly ease back into

with this start to end some NFL. My prep's feeling really good. If you miss me, I mean it times as podcast. That was fun. And I'll be back midweek with one more season.

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