Fatal Fantasy | 3. ‘One Big Oopsy’

Milsani Milchnek, 10 x 28 gram,

for 0.1, 0.71, or Dr. Etka Vitales-Mysli, up 516 gram, for 0.2, 0.2, 0.20. Aldi. Good for Alla.

“Listen to all episodes of Fadal Fantasy.”

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[MUSIC PLAYING] So last we left it.

Mike Foal and Katie Inglis were in separate interrogation rooms.

Each telling, loud and county detectives about the night in question. But they're also each harping on about something called the underworld. That's a live action role playing game, or a lot,

as they call it, that their friend, Clara Schwartz, created. For as much time as they hung out in real life,

“they spent online together acting out quests”

and being wrapped up totally in the underworld game. Live action role playing is a major past-time these days and was a fast-growing activity at the beginning of the 2000s, covering everything from dressing up as Star Trek characters at a sci-fi convention to getting intimate

in fuzzy animal costumes as part of a larp subculture called furries. But assuming that there's a kinky aspect to larp would be ignorant since most simply enjoyed dressing up as a fictional character from Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter

or some comic book character. Some larp practitioners like to add an old world magical and fantasy element aspect to it and it can get quite dark if they also have an interest in the occult. As investigators spoke to Mike and Katie,

they thought maybe both had perhaps

“taken these role playing games a bit more seriously”

than your average geek out there dressing up as their favorite anime character at a convention. And now, in the middle of these interviews, a bloodied medieval sword is found in Mike's bedroom, which would later turn out to have Dr. Robert Schwartz's DNA on it

so they know for certain Mike has a connection to the murder if he hadn't committed the crime himself. In addition to that, Mike's friend Kyle Hilbert was another person who might be connected to the crime or at least had knowledge of it.

When Loudon County investigator Greg Locke asked Mike about the sword, Mike told him he'd only met Kyle a few months ago. - September of 2001 that Katie Michael and Clara actually went to a Renaissance spirit in Maryland

and that's where they met Kyle Holbert. - We have all heard of civil war reenactments, where history buffs get together dressed as soldiers and reenact battles from the 1860s. Renaissance fairs are similar gatherings

where historically-minded dressing outfits from the medieval and Renaissance periods and act as if they were still back in those times, just like our friends, Mike, Katie, Clara, and Kyle. - I was able to reach Kyle Gilbert by phone

and he talked about how exciting it was for him going to this Renaissance fair

because he had never been to one before.

- It was everything I never wanted. Like this was, you know, everybody's walking around in character. - I had this really cool little cat mask on cover the top after your face give you like the bridge of the brow ridge and stuff

and the nose had my face painted black, had my hair dyed as we're in all black. (gentle music) On that September day, while roaming around the fair, Kyle met a pretty girl who was known as

the "Madam of the Maze." "Madam's real name is Brandy Dyer and he was struck by her immediately."

and she comes up, she's easy.

If I remember her, she didn't have to, she could scratch my ears. (laughing) And she's really cute, and she, and just slung just,

“I don't remember God just gonna sound so fucking melodramatic.”

I don't remember a word we said to each her, I just remember looking at her eyes you'd think bright blue eyes and just going, (laughing) through you, pretty.

- Kyle fell hard as did Brandy, so they exchanged phone numbers. From there, Kyle meets up with three other

role players of a similar age who love cosplay,

which is short for costume play. They had gone to many of these fairs in the past together and love the idea of people who thought like them. Inside of Vendor 10, Kyle runs into a bespeckled, Katie Inglis.

- I was hanging out the weapon shop, okay, it's played with actually make sorts,

“no costume age, you know what I'm saying, sort, these are handmade,”

knives, or metalware stuff like that. - And you're interested in this stuff because it's-- - I love the medieval period, and I love, you know what I'm saying, fantasy, so that just was a natural extension for me.

- As Mike and Katie explained to detectives,

Kyle came across as this larger than life, boisterous, jovial person. He seemed older than his years. He was warm and eccentric, and the three of them hit it off. - Mike and I started talking, and he's the one that you say,

you know, he knives kind of gravitate to each other more than anything. - Mike was normally shy, but dressed like a scraggly 1970s game of thrones reject, he found it easy to relate to Kyle. With Mike and Katie that day is another young girl. Mike introduces her to Kyle.

Clara, she says, nice to meet you.

“Kyle is under the impression that Clara is their leader.”

She's dressed like a female Gandalf, wearing a large gray cloak and carrying a wooden staff. - She was the quietest one of the groups, just kind of seemed to be watching everything. And she was friendly, but quiet.

I mean, that's the word to describe her. It is quiet, very introverted. Within a few days of meeting, Kyle falls quickly into Clara's underworld game, which the others are already wrapped up in. Kyle takes on his role in the game with gusto.

Right away, he is deemed a protector and serves proudly as a knight for Clara, the game's queen, the Lord of Chaos. Her underworld is a complicated place, but all you need to know at this point

is she's got a lot of enemies in her fantasy world. But Kyle, the newest member of her underworld force, proves to be a dutiful warrior. There to enjoy and take on the virtual challenges she sets up for him.

- She finds the perfect guy, the perfect person who can take the roles and demands. And quests and valorization from the fantasy world into the real world. Clara has, in the fantasy world, found the solution

to what she perceived to be her real world problem. - In the land of fairy tales, happy endings are a must. But when the lines between fantasy and reality are blurred, the end of the story becomes anything but a happy one. (gentle music)

- My name is Em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times bestselling author of dozens of true crime books. From Sony, music, entertainment and Em William Phelps LLC,

you are listening to Fatal Fantasy. This is episode three. One big, oopsie. - Can't get enough of the story of Margo Freshwater. Do you need more than the episodes can provide?

Real quick, we just launched a free true crime newsletter and community page to go along with our binge shows, including the Crimes of Margo Freshwater. And you can access it at the link in our episode description or at patreon.com/thebinch.

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Loud and county investigator Greg Lock was now certain of one important fact. Although Mike and Katie knew Clara and hung around with her, she was nowhere near her father's house on the night Dr. Schwartz was murdered.

But this other dude, Kyle Eulbert, he was. In fact, they confirmed this by that photograph of a Yeri kid, Kyle, in the ATM video going back to the Kiosk to grab Mike's ATM card after Mike had forgotten it.

Kyle was also the one from the group having T and crumpets with the neighbor on that night while waiting for the tow truck driver to show up. Realizing now, they were all friends, detective Lock had questions, specifically centered around Clara Schwartz.

They were friends with her, they would have known she was away at school, I'm not at home. My red flags went up at that point. It made that statement that they had gone there to see Clara when, you know, being her friend, they knew she was at college.

Mike and Katie had told police so far that they went to the stone house that night to visit Clara. But Lock was seeing straight through that line of bullshit. They had been there, it was back in November.

I think it was November 9th, I believe, that they went to visit her at JMU. What I'm saying is that when we were interviewing and they said that they'd gone there to visit her, they should have known that she was away at school

and not back home. It's the little white lies that strangled you, not the big ones. The truth is inherent. You do not have to remember it. And smart, dialed in investigators are just waiting

for those little lies to creep into the conversation, which is exactly what Greg Lock heard in speaking to Mike and Katie. With the murder weapon found inside Mike's house and now forensic proof that both Mike and Katie's fingerprints

were found on the sword handle, things weren't looking so good for the role playing couple.

“I believe that one was a little less forthcoming”

than the other I believe Katie was a little more forthcoming

As I investigated this part of the case,

and got to know this couple and Kyle more directly, it became apparent that they all accepted and even enjoyed the darker aspects of role playing. Maybe not so much Clara, the author of it all, but certainly Mike, Katie, and Kyle.

And part of what they loved more than anything was the old pagan and wick a side of it. Not wanting to take Kyle's word for it. To learn more about this, I spoke to Joe Leicoc, who's specialty is alternative religions.

- Wicka is a attempt to reconstruct or revive pre-Christian traditions of Europe,

“and I think that a lot of the appeal of this”

is the Christianity says, "Well, the supernatural is in heaven. It's not in this world. You get to encounter God after you die." And paganism is saying, no, no, no, the spirit world

is all around us, right? Nature is magical. - Kyle told me that he believed the spirit world hovered around him like a cloud wherever he went and that he could even speak to some of those spirits.

- I call it myself a wickin', if I use a term to describe myself religiously, it's pagan. Practition of the witchcraft, a wicka, I believe in multiple God's and God'ses, but I believe that they are all the God's and God's discipline,

manifestation and aspects of the one-true source, the one God, so to speak.

“- When Wicka or the occult is mentioned here in this podcast,”

what it means to Kyle and Katie, Mike and Clara, is, as he says, witchcraft, dabbling and black magic and all things on the darker side of spirituality, but not every pagan or wickin' dabbles in the occult. I wanna be clear about that.

A month before meeting this new group of friends, Kyle had turned 18 and was emancipated from being a ward of the state. He'd had a difficult upbringing and a lot of troubles during his teenage years, and if that wasn't enough,

he was diagnosed with schizophrenia early in his life. For someone with this condition, freedom came with a lot more responsibility and accountability, and Kyle believed he was up to the task.

- My source of work, basically, said he's not done

in China.

“Like I said, he turned 18, we wanna release him,”

do climate adult, because that was the ward of the state. So, kind of well stood up to their little brick morale. We don't want him to leave, et cetera, et cetera. And Judge said, you're gone, you're an adult, and they gave me a bus to get in, sent me on my way.

- How did you feel about that? - I was at me, I was free. No more vicious, no more. I have to worry about institutions. I was free, but three words, it turned in my head.

I am free. Taking his medication fell on Kyle's shoulders, post emancipation, and his Kyle told me,

one of the first things he did after walking out

of the courthouse on what he referred to as his hatching day was tossed his meds in the trash. For DeBena, Datto and Locke, they were focused on what Kyle's role was in the car that night or if he could give them a better understanding

of Mike's involvement in the murder. Did Kyle even know that Mike had the sword, and that Mike had possibly killed someone. For all they knew at this point, Kyle was oblivious to what had happened

inside Dr. Schwartz's house. Then Mike told them who had asked him to hide the sword. - Me, later told us that he had taken it there on Kyle's request. So now Mike is saying that the sword used to kill Schwartz

belonged to Kyle and not him. Then he tells Locke that it was Kyle who told him to stash it in his closet, and before he did that, Kyle insisted that Mike wipe Schwartz's blood off of it without the haul.

Now the detectives had a problem. Who are they supposed to believe? Some unknown male, they have yet to speak to, or a role-playing stoner with a bloody sword found in his closet. As detective Locke got further into investigating the sword,

that the murder had little to do with him.

It was Kyle, Gilbert's sword he claimed. Then he kicks it up a notch, claiming that Kyle, his so-called buddy, had killed others. With Mike dropping a hammer on Kyle and playing games with investigators at the same time,

they needed to be certain he wasn't trying to protect himself and throw Kyle under a bus. They needed proof, specifically forensic evidence, tying Kyle directly to the murder. Also, where was the motive in all of this?

“Why had Mike or any of them murdered their friends, father?”

Locke decided to go with what he had in front of him, which was enough circumstantial evidence on Kyle to bring him in? - Based on information obtained from Katie English and Michael Foel,

along with having recovered the murder weapon, that a rest-mort was issued or Kyle Holberg. - Here it was, only day two of the investigation and they were can't during the long at breakneck speed. Within 48 hours, they had two people in custody,

the murder weapon, and were heading out

to pick up a third person of interest.

- Okay, we were running. I think I was there 72 hours, pretty much straight. That particular office there, we had a shower. So, you know, it was pretty much straight on work around the clock, cat nap at the desk,

type of thing. - That's all these things go, right?

“You know, you got to kind of hit, well, that's hot, right?”

- When you have leads that are starting to come in, you really have to run with them. - The detective Locke also wanted to talk to Clara Schwartz about her friends, but that could wait.

He needed to get to Kyle first. Kyle was staying at his girlfriend Brandy's house. Brandy and her mother, Anna Dyer, saw Kyle as a displaced young guy who had nobody in his life.

The state of Virginia had offered him little in the way of support. Here's Brandy's mother, Anna Dyer, who Kyle refers to as mom. That is how close they had gotten

in the weeks he'd stayed with the family. - He was like lost, he did some guidance. He was very friendly. I took him home that night, what I met him because he didn't have anywhere to go.

And it was cold.

“I didn't want him sleeping in the woods,”

so I gave him my couch to sleep on. - Kyle was upfront with them about how he recently been a ward of the state. - I was heartbroken for him. I felt that the state of Virginia

should not have just pushed him out the door without giving him resources, without preparing him, that nobody should be just at 18, just going, "Oh, here you go. You're free."

And no life skills given. - That's Brandy. She worked hard to help Kyle adapt to his new life. Actually, everyone in Kyle's new family did, including Brandy's mom and sister.

But it wasn't always easy.

- Seeing him just trying to be normal to do normal things. We tried to get him a job. And he was just turned down numerous times where I didn't think he went to try for.

I was always comfortable around Kyle. I know he's having his issues and he was trying hard to deal with them. - One particular quirk of Kyle's they noticed was his various ways of coping with stress or fear.

- When he could scare any internals in, so that would be the Disney music. He definitely would go with that Disney music and be in his own world. He just basically stayed into his part of the room.

- Kyle and Brandy are home on December 12th as armed officers surround the house, warrant in hand, preparing to bust through the front door and take Kyle into custody. They just had dinner and were relaxing together.

- We cut a lot when the bed and watched TV and that's when I told them it was all hill breaks loose in the house and all the police are there and they're there to arrest Kyle for the murder.

- And I am just shocked and I'm being told not to move to get on the floor but my hands behind my back. - Investigators have no idea if Brandy is involved. She and her mother have not even heard

- I know nothing they tell me that I need to put my hands up

“to come up with my knees and you're not to move”

and I said okay, I do so and then they pull me into my dining room and that's when they start to question me. Do I know Clara? Do I know Katie? Do I know Mike?

How do I know them? - Brandy's mother had just gotten home. - They said they were looking for Kyle. So they had me get on the floor and everybody in the house got on the floor

until they went for Kyle. Kyle did not hide from them. There was no struggle. - I asked Kyle, what he could recall from the moment the police showed up to arrest him.

- You have a familiar thoughts all at once and you categorize all of them all at once

“and it's not until later that you look back”

and how much you were thinking go. I was in, I was in a Beverly Brandy. I know we've gone out to, we've gone out to, we've gone out had sex in a little hideaway. You got your mama's home.

I just suddenly hear police freeze don't fucking move and I look up and there's this big fucking, anybody wasn't that big in real life

but in my brain it's always a huge fucking cannon

of a revolver pointed at my head. I remember looking at it going, while it's a big ass bearer. - Kyle was escorted outside by several armed officers. And they put me in the,

we put me in the cop car and the bomb came to saw me there and basically told me that she was not abandoning me. - Meanwhile, back at the police station, Detective Locke is still struggling to get a handle on why this group of pagans

would have had it in for Dr. Schwartz. You don't need motive to prosecute a case and court but motive is imperative in piecing together who is responsible. Locke had a nagging suspicion

that the murder is somehow tied into this game, the underworld.

“Remember, there were specific wounds left on Schwartz's body,”

a cult aspects to the crime and the murder weapon was assort. By then, Mike and Katie had told Locke, the underworld was a kind of medieval board game, except the story lines in language were created by the game's architect and acted out in the real world.

- So in this particular game, Clara was the Lord of Chaos and the Queen, if you will, and she pretty much dulled out orders to different people who participated in the game. - Well, if I can simply, you're telling a story

and all the people playing are actually playing their characters, they're acting as part of the story. Whoever's running the game is the person who's writing the story and setting the adventure set in the obstacle for everybody.

- Had these three, Mike, Katie and Kyle, took it upon themselves to murder Dr. Schwartz as part of the game. Did they have some sort of beef with Clara? It seemed unfathomable, unimaginable.

But then again, seasoned cops know that people will kill one another over just about anything, so nothing can be taken off the table. What role, in fact, did the game play? Can you imagine waking up one morning

and three of your best friends are in custody for the murder of your father? And they are talking about a game, you not only created, but turned them on to. Clara Schwartz must have been devastated

by this alarming turn of events. Right around the same time, Clara, her grandparents, and sister arrive at the station house to speak with investigators.

One of the first questions they ask Clara is,

do you think there is any possibility your new friend, Kyle, whom Mike and now Katie were saying could have committed the murder, might have killed your father? - The information that Clara provided,

she did and believed that Kyle would really do this. - Well, that's true. I don't know how to do it. - Do you know what? - Save.

for the early, for the next, for the next quality, and for the next price, in hand. For example, for the mini-cettin' Seagun, only 24, 18, or the garden-touch garden-sharing, only 21, and 18.

Now, all garden products are produced in our field, and in the next, for the next little price, great joy. - At this stage, based on what they knew about him, Kyle, you'll birth, didn't seem like the type of person who could commit such a vicious crime.

Jennifer Miller met Kyle when the two were teenagers. They shared a lot of the same interests and have remained close friends. - He was a really nice guy. I mean, he didn't put on any airs about himself.

It was this is what you get. Jennifer was also into live action role play.

- Kyle always wanted to be the hero.

He usually played the night, or he played, especially the magician, he loved playing the magician. I always say he has the night and training on our central. Kyle's personality is, if I know something bad's going on, I wanna help, how can I help?

How can I protect my friends and who I consider family from whatever bad is going on? - Was Kyle just the fall guy and Mike the more likely suspect playing a game of his own

“with investigators or perhaps they killed Dr. Schwartz together?”

While investigators prepared to speak with Kyle about his potential role in the murder, Katie suddenly sees the light and decides to cooperate fully. No more bullshit, the truth, she promises. Immediately, Katie reveals it was Kyle

who walked up to the Schwartz house on his own just before Mike got the car stuck in the mud. When Kyle came back 20 minutes later, he was a completely different person, Katie said. After Mike asked, Kyle said there was no one at the house.

Katie was now placing the blame on Kyle, which made me want to understand him better. I was able to track down Kyle's sister Natasha Yulberg. She's only 10 months younger than Kyle and has found memories of his love and protection.

Regarding Kyle, Natasha says, "If he was my world, he was everything to me. I was bullied at school and was bullied at home and Kyle just, Kyle made everything better. He was just my best friend.

And when he left, it devastated me. And I didn't know if anything would ever be okay again." She then recalled the day, Kyle left the Yulberg household for good. The reason I was told he was leaving was,

and this was from Kyle, he said he was leaving because he couldn't stand bad anymore. And he just couldn't put up with dad and he just had to go. I was like, "Well, I want to go with you.

I don't want to be here anymore either. If you're not here, I don't want to be here without you."

“And he said, "No, you have to stay here.”

You can't go where I'm going. You can't go with me." She wondered for years where Kyle had gone. Then the truth finally came out. I didn't know he was under an out of foster care.

I never knew he was in a lot of mental institutions.

Kyle was nine years old when he left. And Natasha discovered the reason for him being essentially taken away from the family. - Every summer growing up for several years, I would go and spend the summer with this couple.

I remember these two summers, my dad came and picked me up early. And he was like, "We have to go home." And I'm like, "Well, why?" And he said, " Kyle tried to kill Chris." - Chris is Kyle and Natasha's younger brother.

- And I'm like, "What happened?" Well, he tried to kill him with a butcher knife. He was chasing Chris around with dad's freshly sharpened butcher knife around the yard.

“And the only thing that saved Chris was the fact”

that my dad had heard him yelling from his office and came out and got the knife away from Kyle.

- That was the first time.

The next had the potential to be far more violent. - And the second time, kind of the same scenario, but it was gasoline cannon a lighter. Kyle was asked why he was doing it.

"Do you want to see what would happen?"

- After Katie told investigators,

“Kyle was the only one who gone into Dr. Schwartz's house.”

They went back to Mike and asked him about this. And Mike cracked. He told cops that he and Katie knew when they arrived at the Schwartz house that Kyle was going there to kill him.

This was a breakthrough. Katie hadn't admitted that. Detective Locke asked Mike to tell them how he knew this. Mike explained, Kyle said he's done other jobs,

which we knew to be homicide. And he said he had buried one victim behind the victim's house. "Is there anything else you can tell us about that night "at the Schwartz residence, Locke asked?"

The murder, getting stuck in the mud, keeping this secret, Mike said, "It's one big oopsie." I've heard murder described in a lot of ways,

but never in almost three decades of reporting,

have I heard taking someone's life oiled down to a childish, idiotic, ignorant, faux pas like spilling a glass of milk. With that information, they go to Kyle and tell him they have witnesses willing to testify against him.

In fact, Katie had already cut a deal with investigators. After Kyle heard that, he told investigators he was ready to tell them the truth about what happened at that night.

“Have I got a story for you about what really happened?”

He told them. For investigators, it sounds like there's not only a confession in the air, but also more secrets to be revealed. (dramatic music)

Next time, on Fatal Fantasy. A new suspect is in jail and very angry. - Because of the way she talked and the way she made out, why she didn't do everything, so as you got the incentives, you come up with whatever bullshit

in the mouth, you've done to them to secure their case. - Meanwhile, investigators find a witness who sends the case in an entirely new direction. - Young man came forward that he had been a participant in this underworld game

“and that one of the tasks that was assigned was to kill the old user.”

- And a voice with a deadly plan is soon discovered. - Someone should put a gun to him, tell him to write the note, then put it in the drawer of the desk and point a gun at him while he pours the violin his milk and drinks it, watches him die in the leaves.

(dramatic music) - Don't wanna wait for that next episode. You don't have to. Unlock all episodes of Fatal Fantasy. Add free right now by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel.

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Check out the Binge channel page on Apple Podcasts or getthebinge.com to learn more. Fatal Fantasy is production by Sony, music, entertainment, and M William Phelps LLC. Written and executive produced by me.

From Sony Music Entertainment, the executive producers are Jonathan Hirsch and Catherine St. Louis. And our production manager is Samantha Allison. Jeremy Adair is my senior producer

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from the Binge called Fatal Fantasy.

I am obsessed. Wait, I need to know more, telling you. Tell me everything. I will. It's a very shocking.

It's this like ultra weird crime story

of a murder for a higher plot that, yeah, wait for it. Leverage the dynamics of the underworld

“and underworld being a medieval fantasy game.”

Wait, so it's live action, role playing gone wrong,

horribly wrong. And you can binge all episodes now. Oh my, that sounds so good. I know what I'm doing on my drive home today. Search for Fatal Fantasy and subscribe

“to the Binge Podcast channel on Apple Podcasts”

or at getthebinge.com. And then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait

for the next month's drop. I really need to know what happens.

“Selfishly you do so that we can talk about it.”

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