“Is it okay if…” Appropriation vs. Appreciation of First Nations’ culture

Hi, I'm Michelle Kelly, editor of Cottage Life Magazine.

“I'm delighted to welcome you to the Cottage Life podcast.”

[MUSIC] In this episode, we speak with Graphic Novelist and writer David Robertson,

about appreciating rather than appropriating First Nations culture.

Also, we take a magical winter walk in the woods. And we offer an easy cure for a creepy Cottage problem. What to do when leeches find you in the water? This is the Cottage Life podcast where every day is the weekend. [MUSIC]

Hey, Cottage Coach Adam Holman here. If you know me, you know I spend a lot of time outdoors.

“Whether I'm camping with my family or phishing in my top secret spot,”

there's nowhere I'd rather be than in the wild. But we all have to head home at some point. And I'm pretty sure that the mosquitoes have put a homing device on me. Because sometimes they can be just as annoying in my backyard. So when I'm back in the city, I use the backyard mosquito lamp from off.

Whether I'm barbecuing my breakfast or having a backyard dinner with my family, I know I'll be safe from mosquitoes for up to six hours.

Which means I may never have to go inside again.

[MUSIC] David Robertson is in Winnipeg-based award-winning graphic novelist and writer. He's also a member of Noray House Creenation. In our recent June July issue of Cottage Life, David wrote a thought provoking essay on a topic that's on the mind of many cottagers these days.

The difference between appreciating versus appropriating first nation's culture

“is it okay to put in a nook shook on your shoreline?”

What about a totem pool on your property? I spoke to David to help us better understand how to navigate some of our nervousness about these complex issue. I should let you know that the interview took place before the news broke about the discovery of unmarked graves of indigenous children who attended residential school across Canada. While we don't directly address these discoveries and their massive ramifications in this conversation,

it's clear that understanding and appreciating first nation's culture has never been more urgent.

With that in mind, here is our conversation. Thanks for joining me on the podcast, David. Oh, thanks for having me. I didn't want to start by asking you and this is kind of a heart of your piece in the magazine. What is the difference? You can sum it up between appropriation and appreciation.

Right, so appropriation is when we borrow elements from another culture. And typically it's like a dominant culture borrowing elements from a marginalized culture. So like, you know, a non-indigenous community, for example, a person borrowing elements from an indigenous culture. And then the other part of it is that you're not only borrowing from that culture, but you're also using it for some kind of gain, whether it's a monetary gain or even personal attention.

Those elements all need to be in place for something to be an act of appropriation. So it could even be just, you know, posting on social media, something without permission, like someone in Regalia, for example, without giving credit or without any context. And just because you want to get likes or something like that, that's something that's an appropriate of act. The appreciation is really when we look at these cultures and the things

that we're doing and we are seeking to understand it, where we know that what we are, you know, displaying, for example, is something that belongs to the history traditions of another culture. And we do the work to understand the roots of it, where it's from, what it means. And then we are able to articulate that to somebody else so that we can explain what it is. And it's kind of, at some point, it can be a little bit of a tricky line.

learn, I learned about this and then actually just doing the research to understand it.

“Okay, so let me put that idea in practice. So say I go to a powwow in cottage country,”

which, which there are quite a few. And then I take photos and I post on social media. Is that appropriation or is that appreciation? That's a tough one for me. Yeah, you know, I think that for me, if I were to see that, and there was no context to it. So, you know, you have the opportunity on social media to, to write some sort of description. And if you're, if you're posting a picture like that from a powwow that you have attended

and you're explaining the significance of the powwow, you're explaining, you know, where you were, you know, what it's about, even the specific regalia or dads that you're showing, then, you know, I think that kind of gets you out of kind of a problematic area. And also where you can, and this is the other important part, is seeking permission. So you're asking permission to post the picture and then giving credit. And that's something

“that I think is also very important. And it can, it can kind of cross you over either line”

of appreciation or appropriation.

Right. I guess even asking to take the picture in the first place.

That wouldn't be, you know, it wouldn't be a tough thing to do or, you know, when we wrong to do that, I think actually would be, you know, really appreciated. And the thing is with, like, you know, indigenous people and not to, you know, again, I guess not to black it ever, all, them all into one group because there's, there's many different distinct indigenous cultures across Canada. But, you know, indigenous peoples are, you know, very understanding, very welcoming,

very warm and and willing and and and actually oftentimes excited to be able to talk about these things to talk about their culture, to talk about their language, to talk about their traditions,

because we understand the importance of sharing this knowledge. So that's so that people understand.

Because, you know, a lot of the problems that we've seen historically in Canada is because there hasn't been an understanding. There's been, there's been, you know, assumptions that have led to, you know, really kind of a difficult times in our history. So we, so we really

“appreciate that, you know, and so I, I think there's all, sometimes in nervousness that people have,”

you don't need to have that nervousness. I think that it's, it's, we understand people make mistakes and I don't think anybody I know would ever guilt anybody for making a mistake either. And all this is so new that we're all, we're all learning. And learning is part of the growth process, to get us to where we eventually want to be. Yeah, I mean, it's the, it's so true for so many things, understanding equals acceptance, you know, and sometimes people do just want to understand things

before they can really understand, accept them for, you know, better or worse. I just want to pick up on something you said earlier that I think is also, you know, can can be challenging in this situation. And I find it personally challenging is that what, what is offensive to one person, nation's person isn't offensive to another perhaps. And as you said, it's, you know, a very, you know, everyone is different. Indigenous culture across Canada is varied, which is wonderful,

but I also wonder if that, that can be confusing for people. And so what would you say to someone who asked about that? You know, I would say, even though there's a distinct difference between many Indigenous cultures that the, the act of appropriation is universally acceptable, accepted, accepted as, you know, like a defined, a defined act, a defined term. So whether, whether you're dealing with, you know, elements from the intimate culture, which is very common, you know,

'cause the, the inkshuk, the kayak, even, is from the intimate culture, or the pre-culture, or, you know, the height of culture, which is one of the west, north-west specific cultures, that, where the total originates from, you know, there's, there's all these different elements from all these different Indigenous cultures. But the, the act of appropriation, and how I, I have come to understand it, is, is universally the same thing. So, um, no matter what culture,

where it's, no, no matter what culture, um, and so, and it, it's not, also, I should say, too, it's not, it's not just relegated to only Indigenous culture, um, you know, I think that's, that's an important point, is that, you know, we've seen appropriation occur from, you know, the, the black community, the Asian community, um, you know, all these different marginalized groups, that have these really beautiful traditions, um, you know, beautiful, um, regalia,

whatever it might be, um, you know, just borrowed, um, without thought, just kind of, as though they are,

“they're for free use, and, um, you know, I think that, that's, that's an important point too,”

and I, I, I, I, I, I, I talk about that as well with my, with my books and when I try to accomplish with them as well in terms of representation, you know, it's not just representing Indigenous people, um, when we talk about these things, it's representing, um, any marginalized group. Yeah. So, another thing you said in the article, and I was kind of surprised in a sense, is that people actually ask you, you know, what's the big deal about this? And I mean, I guess it's hard

to always think about it as a white woman. I have been so shielded from the realities and the

extensive racism in our country for so long. So, I'm kind of learning as I dig into this more that this takes are are high, and I'm surprised to hear people say to you, you know, what's the big, what's the big deal? Can you say a little bit more about that experience? Well, you know,

“I think that, like, for me, um, I, I found that over time, I, I, I don't get upset or angry about”

these things anymore, because I understand that, um, there's just needs to be some education that takes place, and then hasn't obviously taken place in, in these cases. You know, one of the things I tried to explain is that even though it seems like it's a small thing, um, like it's not that significant, because it's just, you know, someone's just saying of as pogo-honus or, um, you know, someone's wearing a blate baseball cap from the Cleveland baseball team, um, you know, I explained

that these things are seeds that are planted, um, that grow, and they create, um, an environment where, these, either shapes perceptions that we have of indigenous people, um, or expectations, um, that are grounded in, um, you know, falsities, and it can lead to, beyond problematic things, but, you know, it can lead to dangerous things, um, you know, one of

“the things that I think, um, we're still dealing with today at a very significant level is”

the epidemic of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, and so oftentimes you'll see still today, and throughout history, this sexualization of indigenous women, um, and it, it, it has led to, um, in areas and in times in history and today, um, this perception of indigenous women that leads to violence, um, no, and when you lay it out, the A to B, how you get from one spot to the other, actually becomes pretty easy to see when you lay it out so clearly the way that you just

did. And, and I think to, um, you know, we say this all the time when we're talking at the magazine about how we move forward in a world that's, you know, more focused on diversity and inclusion,

a world that we very much want to be a part of, we always say, you know, we're going to make mistakes,

but when you know better, you do better, and I think that's part of what you're saying here too, is that education is so important. So I wanted to ask you on that point, um, what are some of the steps that codgers can take, you know, the, to rectify some of these sins that, that have come, from the past and, and to move into the future in a more respectful and appreciative place, when it comes to, um, cultures that are not their own, like, for example, the obvious question,

can you put up that in a shook on your shoreline that you have always, that you have always put out there in your quite fond of? Right. It's a great question, and I love that that's saying, if you know better, you do better. A great example of what I feel the process looks like is is that a restaurant in Clear Lake, which is a cottage area that I've been to every year since I was a kid and an owner of a restaurant called the wigway, I'm which I mentioned in the article,

you know, she, when she bought out, uh, the, the business from her parents, um, immediately changed

the name because she, it always had bothered her, and that, that's the question part of it, right?

So, um, we talked about, you know, people just having these lingering questions or doubts about

educated herself about it, and, and when she realized that, um, the name was appropriating from

Indigenous culture, she, um, made the switch, um, to change the restaurant's name, um, and, and then also asked me, um, if it was okay, if she referenced the history of the restaurant on the wall that she was planning this kind of heritage wall, um, with pictures of it. So, she did all the right things, and she even incorporated land acknowledgements in her menu and on the website. And so, you know,

“I think what we need to do is, when you have those questions, is first of all, to do some research,”

and just, um, it could be as simple as going on onto the right sites on Google, um, and in reading up about, um, the, the things that you have a question about is not hard to find information about, for example, the in-upshook. Um, it's not hard to find out questions about the history of the kayak, um, and, and when we do that, and we educate ourselves, then, um, you know, that's really a, a good

first step. Yeah, well, and, and it's interesting because I think, uh, I know that the vast majority

of codagers, um, they are trying to be, uh, respectful, and they do appreciate, and they just sometimes don't know how to go about it. So it's kind of a good place to end actually with, with what you're saying here is, you know, ask the questions, don't be afraid to get it wrong, but keep asking the questions because when you know about it, you do better, and, um, and that's really the solution. Yeah, you know what, and, and don't be afraid of making mistakes, um, everybody makes mistakes,

you know, if you're, if you're, if you're doing things with it, and with a good heart, and we're doing things in a good way, um, then, you know, a mistake is part of the learning process. Mm-hmm. I wanted to say thank you for not just coming on our podcast, but thank you for all the work that you do, um, in educating people, um, I know it must be very difficult at times, but, you know, it's working. It's working for the team at Cottage Life, and, and for our readers too,

“I think. So thank you very much for coming on the podcast today, David. All thanks for having me. I appreciate it.”

[Music] For the June July 2019 issue of Cottage Life, we asked several of our favorite contributors to share their thoughts on going wild at the Cottage. A award-winning writer, Clive Thompson, had this experience to share about a magical journey into the woods. Walk into the midnight light is read by Pedro Mendez. The image of the moonlight in the trees still haunts me.

It was 1982. I was 13, and I was having a miserable time winter camping in the Boy Scouts. I'd been scouting since I was six, and our troop would frequently head out for a weekend at a wooded piece of land owned by a friendly farmer near Lake Skugag Ontario. But winter camping was a

“dodgy affair, because our troop had wretched gear, a rag-tag collection of moldy canvas tents,”

a tent heater that looked like it predated the first world war. I had a phone snoopy branded

sleeping bag that probably wasn't rated for a cool summer evening, let alone sub-zero knee-deep snow. It'll toughen you up. My dad said cheerly. That was debatable. But we tried. We pitched the tent and at bedtime huddled in the dark, shivering, and trying to ignore our chattering teeth. After a couple of hours, we realized it was delusional to believe sleep would come. "Man, we're gonna be awake until dawn," said one of my friends of the side. To kill time,

we put our snow suits back on, and went for a midnight hike. The moon was full, so bright we didn't need flashlights. We plunged into a thick stand of fur trees, crunching quietly along the bed of dry needles for 10 minutes, until we reached the edge of the furs, and stumbled, suddenly into the open. We'd reached a huge field, blanketed with snow, and across from us stood a stand of hundreds of white birch trees. That sight was supernatural, so eerie it sticks with me even today.

The slender bear birch shone in the night like dry bones. The moon loomed low over the forest, the bed of snow, a pale piece of paper, criss-crossed with the ink-block moon shadows of the birch. It was as if we'd stepped into one of Lauren Harris's luminous and unsettling paintings. The landscape aglow with a weird and radiant spirit, like the idea of cold itself, white, on white, on white. It's not easy to strike dumb a group of jaded teens, but we stood there,

staring for so long our feet went numb, utterly silent. These days, I live in Brooklyn, New York,

I like it that way. I'm an urban creature, and big cities are just collections of small

neighborhood villages, a riot of society. But whenever I get a chance to dive back into the forest of Ontario, I take it, greedily, instantly. I go for long hikes, plunging into the woods, even in the freezing depths of winter. I think that almost 40 years later, I'm still chasing this spooky, almost alien beauty of that midnight scene. I want to be dragged out of myself

“in the way wilderness drags you. That's why it's so important to have these encounters with the”

woods when you're young. Even when, perhaps, especially when you're physically miserable and just

trying to endure it, the forest enters you like a ghost and never leaves.

Hey, Cottage Coach Adam Holman here. You know, some cottagers are all about the view. Me? I embrace the smells, whether it's the scent of conifers after a good rain, the Canadian bacon on my cast iron skillet, or the mist off the lake when I'm out for an early morning paddle. That's why I like to use off deep free mosquito repellent during my outings. It isn't greasy or oily like some other repellents, and it's odor free, so I can enjoy

every breath when I'm outdoors. Plus, it works well over my clothes, and because it's safe to use around plastics, I don't have to worry about my gear, so I can focus on the smells of nature, without here in the sounds of mosquitoes when I'm in the woods.

“Cottage Life is well known for offering our readers little tips and hacks that make life at the lake”

a little bit easier. In this episode of the podcast, we help you out of a particularly sticky situation,

what to do when you find a leech on your body after a swim. So the first thing that most

cottagers will do is they'll douse the leech in salt. This will indeed work because a leech of zorps chemicals through its body, so coating it almost anything will irritate it enough to make it like go. But this strategy isn't really much fun for the leech, and it can even kill it, and you don't want to do that, because many of the 60 species in Canada love to eat mosquito larvae

“in substantial quantities. So try this equally effective in much kinder solution.”

Submerge your limb in water, and then use your fingernail to gently break the suction of each sucker. This method is a bit more hands-on than using the salt, and a bit more growths, but you won't have to work too hard to make the leech let go. It really won't take much, and then you're good. And the leech is good. So everyone wins, except for the mosquitoes. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. Please subscribe to the Cottage Life

Podcast for free wherever you get your podcast. We'll have new episodes every Thursday throughout the summer, just in time for your drive to the lake. This episode is sponsored by our Cottage Life paid subscribers. I want to thank them for making this series possible. For new listeners, I invite you to check out our free email newsletters, visit CottageLife.com/Newsletter to sign up. We'd love to hear from you. Post a review or email us at CottageLife.com. To find out more about

our magazine or television shows and our live events, visit CottageLife.com. This podcast is produced by Catherine Junt and me, Michelle Kelly. I'll see you on the dock.