Prime Minister Mark Carney has finally secured a majority for this liberal go...
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Hey everyone, Rachel Brown here. First of all, I want to give a massive thanks to our listeners.
This project was a labor of love and it's so cool to see it being received like this.
“If you listen to all of the cult queen of Canada, I think you'll appreciate my recent”
chat with Kathleen Goldtart on her podcast crime story. I tell her about all things romance including behind the scenes stories from the making of this project. And after this, consider checking out other episodes in the crime story feed. It's linked in the show notes. I think you'll like it. Now onto my interview with Kathleen. Thanks for listening. There's a lot of people who are struggling already financially who report on the telegram channel.
I've lost my home. I have CRA on my back because I'm not paying my taxes. I've had my power and utilities turned off because I paid my, I stopped paying my bills. Queen Romano helped me what's going on. So you see a lot of desperation, but then a lot of sort of blind loyalty and allegiance to her nonetheless. Rich Mount Saskatchewan is a tiny prairie town population 120. It doesn't have a restaurant or a
coffee shop. It doesn't even have a gas station. But what it does have is an abandoned school building. And for a brief surreal stretch of time, that school became the headquarters of the self-declared Queen of Canada. Her name is Romano, Dito Lowe, and she used conspiracy theories to gain hundreds of thousands of followers and to entice Canadians to join her in Saskatchewan. So when the residents of Rich Mount found out what she was doing, some immediately pushed back.
“While others quietly wondered, could this be the next wake-o?”
What happened next wasn't just a strange story from a small town in Canada. It was the beginning of a collision between online extremism and everyday life. In her new podcast, the "Queen of Canada" host Rachel Brown investigates what happened in Rich Mount. Rachel, welcome to crying story. Thanks Kathleen.
So you have been following this story four years. And you first wrote about it in 2024 in the walrus.
Tell me about this woman at the center of it. Romano Dito Lowe. Tell me about who she is and how she became the Queen of Canada. Well, we don't know too much about Romano's earlier years. We kind of know bits and pieces based on what she's said online and has said in her livestream and that sort of things. We can kind of piece together a little bit. What we do know is that she was born and raised in the
“Philippines. And she describes that she was raised in a the modern equivalent of the royal family”
and its own right in the Philippines. Okay. Whatever that means. And then as a teenager in the 90s, she immigrated with a family member to live in British Columbia raised by relatives there. And then as she became older and an adult, she started kind of being more entrepreneurial. So she would start different jobs like cleaning services, consulting services, at one point she was doing consulting for the oil and gas industry, looking to help businesses bring in foreign workers into
these types of industries in Alberta and elsewhere. And then sort of started other small businesses here and there that really didn't have much success. And then in 2020 is when she tries to
become a political leader. So she starts this federal political party called the Canada First
Party, which has a lot of slogans that are similar to what you hear with the American Republican Party like draining the swamp in Ottawa, that sort of thing. And she tries to get that off the ground but like her businesses, it doesn't really take off. So that sort of in the nutshell what we know about Romana pre the Queen of Canada. Okay. Do we have any sense that did trauma exist in her life? Does she talk about having any kind of issues like maybe why the family immigrated? Do we have
any idea of sort of like anything out of an ordinary life of hers? Not really. Her family hasn't
Spoken out publicly as far as I'm aware at this point about who she is.
comes from her and everything's kind of sugarcoded and she has very much an agenda of how she wants to portray herself and how she wants to portray her background. But it's very light on details. We're left to kind of figure out or at least kind of gas or surmise what mayor may not have
led to her becoming who she is. But it's clear that she was always driven by this desire to
“achieve something and become someone. And I think as time went on, it's clear that she was after”
a sense of power and control sort of in the business world and then in the political world. And she's always someone that is ready to pivot if the thing that she's working on doesn't pan out. What I found so interesting about the timing of her sort of bursting on to the weird sphere was that she sort of filled a void with a fall of Q and on and that she kind of snuck herself in there. Can you can you can you tell me more about that? Yeah, so after 2021, after January 6th
this anonymous figure Q, which is the anonymous leader of the Q and on movement, had stopped posting online on message boards and other online corners of the internet where Q was prominent. So as my former colleague at Vice Mac Lamaroo put it, there was this power vacuum that was created. And she as someone who had I think was clearly seeing that her political aspirations in a more
“traditional sense weren't going to pan out. She was very attuned to what was going on online.”
It was also during the height of the pandemic. So there were so many people online conspiracy theories were swirling. She really saw this as a moment to capture an audience and an audience that was
basically primed for someone like her and almost desperate for someone like her, like a leader to
come and start talking about ways that she was going to have control and ownership over this very chaotic time period that we were all living in. So it was this perfect storm for her to come in and kind of capitalize on it. You found a telegram channel that these guys were communicating on and you sort of looked around there. What were you reading? Like what were they talking to each other about? So in the early days of the telegram channel, so this is where Romana started
this, you know, giant group chat essentially where anyone, her followers could join at one point.
“It was over 70,000 people that were on this telegram channel. And there is where she would post”
her so-called royal decrees. So she would start making these proclamations like as the Queen of Canada, as the leader, the true leader of this country, I decree that you don't have to pay taxes anymore. You don't have to pay your hydro bills, your mortgage payments, your car payments. And she would make these big promises that would pertain to people's finances and health care as well over time. She started making promises pertaining to this fake technology called medbeds. She says,
"I'm rolling out medbeds across the country and anyone with physical ailment or a medical issue is going to become magically cured or maybe even you could anti-age or de-age in this so-called medical chamber." And so it would be royal decrees and it would be other promises she would make. Like, I will, you know, if you believe in me, if you donate to me, good things will come in your life. So it was also a place where people would beg for things that they wanted in their life
when it came to finances, medical issues, that sort of thing. They would say, you know, "Please, Ramana, I'm dealing with such and such an issue in my life. Can you help me?" So it was a place for her to have this back and forth with her followers who would ask her for these things. She would issue these royal decrees. And then it would be full of people praising her for these things that they believed she was doing. And at the height of COVID, she would also
spread a lot of conspiracy theories and misinformation about the vaccine, about the pandemic, about government restrictions. So it was a place for her to also preach essentially this belief system in these conspiracy theories. Did she ever help anybody? Not as far as I know. She's only ever caused harm. And the harm, I mean, it was really devastating to hear about some of the harm, especially with seniors, definitely. You know, we sort of have this sense that a lot of
Ramana's followers, which are part of the so-called kingdom of Canada, as they call themselves and she refers to them, are people who are older, people on fixed incomes. So a lot of her followers from what we can tell are pretty vulnerable and are not people who can afford to just give significant portions of their income to this person, this person who has no accountability, no track record does not deliver on what she says she's going to do. There's a couple
that lost their home because he's not paying taxes. That's right. Yes, we have a lot of reports
of there's that couple in Quebec even that lost their home that was worth over a million dollars.
That shows that it's not just people who are living paycheck to the jack on a...
There's a wider range of people, probably more than than we know. But there's a lot of people who
“are struggling already, financially, who report on the Telegram channel. I've lost my home.”
I've had the CRA on my back because I'm not paying my taxes. I've had my power and utilities turned off because I paid my, I stopped paying my bills. Queen Ramana helped me what's going on. So you see a lot of desperation, but then a lot of sort of blind loyalty and allegiance to her nonetheless. Devastating, how did she end up in Saskatchewan? So this was around 2022 and into 2023. Ramana, who was initially based in Victoria and B.C. that's where she lived and worked
for many, many years. She started this cross-cannota royal tour. She calls it in a fleet of RVs. So they went from Victoria. Her most loyal followers all banded together and traveled
on these RVs to Ottawa where the trucker professor first room ever hearing about her was during the
trucker. Yeah, and that was sort of like I put it like her kind of coming out or like kind of coronation in a way where she got up there on Parliament Hill with a megaphone and lit a Canadian flag on fire. So strange thing for the Queen to do. Very strange thing for the Queen to do and it also
“alienated her. I think from a lot of the more the broader movement, the trucker, convoy movement.”
That even was a step too far for them. But yeah, so it was this cross-cannota tour where she was really trying to raise awareness about the group. Maybe attract some more followers in the process gets some more financial donations from followers. So really going from city to city from the convoy she went out east and then to Peterborough where there was a major flare-up where she encouraged her followers to arrest Peterborough police officers for enforcing COVID restrictions
and COVID rules. They got charged with assault a lot of them quite a few of them left, but I mean it's all absurd. It is absurd. So that was the the cross-cannota tour is what eventually led her to kind of be kicked out from town to town. So while she would often arrive in these places, the more and more
“she gained notoriety, media coverage and awareness so too did that bring out people who would”
oppose her. So there'd be these protesters or people coming out filming her trying to get law enforcement or whoever to encourage them to leave. So that started happening more and more and more. She kicked out of these towns in the maritimes, come back through Ontario so she's kind of moving back west towards the end of 2023 and then where she ends up in campsack which is at the border of Saskatchewan and Manitoba. They were there for a day that really caused a big outcry by the
people of campsack and the mayor came out, other people in town said you're not welcome here, they tried to host a meeting where they were going to talk one-on-one with Ramana,
Ramana never showed. And so they kicked out of campsack and they really are left without a place to land.
And so they essentially the queen gets an invite by someone who lives in the town of rich mound and that's where they end up because it's the place where it's really the only place left they have to go. Who invited her? What we later found out, we later find out is that it's a man named Ricky Manns who lives in rich mound and owns the school property, the building and the grounds of this abandoned school that hadn't been in a hadn't been in use since 2008. So he owned
the property and he said, I'm sort of speculating what the other said is hey I have this property in this building, you guys need a place to land, come here and I will let you live on my private property in this town. It's kind of like the ideal spot for you. And do you know from Ricky why he offered it
to them? What he saw in Ramana? Ricky's never talked to me, I've tried reaching out to him.
I've never heard from him but he's appeared on the group's livestream and he said, you know, I invited them here, he doesn't really go into so much detail about why but I was told by people in town that over the course of the pandemic, you know, he kind of was someone who believed in the the QAnon conspiracy theories kind of aligned with what Ramana was talking about. So it kind of made sense from what people knew of him that he he was believing in this kind of stuff and maybe saw
her as someone he wanted to socialize with someone he wanted to genuinely help out. He saw maybe these people needed somewhere to go and he was like I have a spot and you guys look kind of cool. So I think that's probably along the lines of what happened. And from what I'm told as well he has a bit
Of a tense relationship with a lot of people in town.
bit of a middle finger to those that he doesn't get along with in town.
“Prime Minister Mark Carney has finally secured a majority for this liberal government.”
What are his plans and how does it all affect you? The power and politics podcast answers these questions and more six days a week. We have you covered from all angles. A reporter roundtable joins us every Friday and you can get caught up with the weekly wrap every Saturday follow and listen to power and politics wherever you get your podcasts. You end up going to rich man more than once, right? Yes. But the town that you find
is tiny town, 120 people. Everyone's going to know everybody. In turmoil, right? They are just tossed up. Talk to me about this town and what having Romana and her followers living in this school does like why it just rips this town apart. From the minute that people in town heard
that Romana and her RVs were coming in, a lot of people in town had never heard of her before.
And so when they arrive, they started looking online and they see what happened in Peter Burrow, you know chaos there. They're staging these citizen arrests of police officers. They see that Romana has a history of issuing death threats for people who are enforcing COVID restrictions and vaccine restrictions. So they wonder is this group dangerous? There are also such a small town and the school is probably the biggest building in town. And so they're going to have a major presence
in this town. This pretty, you know, people can kind of keep themselves if they want. If there's tensions in town, it can kind of be behind closed doors a little bit. But when this group arrived in town, it brought so much attention and fear and fear of the unknown that it really got people angry and they wanted to know if the mayor, the town council could do anything to get them out.
“And I think a lot of people had a bit of friction with Ricky Manz anyway. So it just sort of ignited”
further, any tensions that already existed and just made people scared that they have this cult living in their backyard. They shouldn't have to, you know, put up with this. And, you know, the cult didn't make themselves, didn't make friends the minute that they arrived in town. They came out. There were security folks with the group that would come and be out on the perimeter of the school filming anyone in Richmond who came by. There's a playground next to the school where
a lot of people would bring their kids. And so they would, these parents would be like, I don't want these random people filming my children as they're playing on the playground. That's creepy. That's potentially, that's frightening. Yeah. So it just, it was a recipe for disaster. People in town were freaked out and then the cult didn't do themselves any favors by kind of antagonizing the locals. It leads eventually to a really big protest. But what can you tell me about some of the
incidences that got to the point where they were like, okay, we're not just bitching about it on Facebook. We're not talking to our neighbors about it. We're actually going to come out
“and show ourselves as upset about this. Yeah. I think there was just a build up people in town”
getting really nervous and scared about this group. We want to do something and a lot of people
who've never even protested before. We're like, we're going to have a protest. We're going to go around
the school building with our truck horns. You know, we're true Saskatchewans. We're just going to lay on our truck horns and bring out our farm equipment and just make so much noise and make it known to them and the world because media outlets from all over descended on the town because they're following Queen Romana in general and then there's this protest. They want to show the world that they're against, they don't stand for what this group stands for. And then people in surrounding towns
as well came and showed their support for the locals who wanted the cult out. So it kind of became this rallying cry against this group, against what they stood for against, you know, conspiracy theories and the harms that they've been perpetuating for many months now. Were there any practical things that happened in town like that actually like it's one thing to have a group of people living there. But if they stick stuck to themselves and I'm not saying it's not creepy to have these
guys with cameras. Yeah. But did they interact at all with the town? Was there any of that? Well a big inciting incident for the outrage was when people in town, very specific people, started getting including the mayor and others got addressed to them by name, email death threats from the cult. It appeared to be from the cult in Queen Romana and it was just sort of these long pages,
Long rambling death threats including, you know, I will kill you, execute you...
of your grandchildren, that kind of specific language and that was the breaking point for a lot of
people saying we have to show these people that we will not stand for this and we're not going to
“be threatened or lives are not going to be threatened in our own town. And so I think it's, you know,”
at least that they could do, which is just kind of rallying the street and focalize their discuss. Yeah. Any benefit to that? Did anything happen? I think in terms of a benefit, it did not get the school, it did not get the people out of the school, it did not get the cult out of town. It is not illegal to be part of a cult. A cult existing is not a crime. They were on private property that they had been invited to. They weren't committing any crimes when it came to
trespassing. So they weren't, the protests and the vocalizing of their, um, being appalled
at their presence did not result in any actual results of the cult leaving, but it did kind of bring, you know, bring people together and I think the people in town found a bit of a sense of community it kind of confirmed. Like we, we love our town, we don't want to see this happen. This is a disgrace.
“So that was sort of a benefit from the, from that side. But I think it also created further divisions”
in town. There were people who asked, like, I mean, they don't support sort of these death threats, but they'd said as time went on, the cult's folks are staying in the school. They're not out here and taginizing us in the streets. They're not, we don't even see them. So really, what's the harm
that they're causing us if we just leave them alone, maybe they'll keep leaving us alone.
So it created this division in town between the people who were kind of more neutral when it came to the cult. Some people were arguably supportive of the cult in general, but open, but there was a division between people who were more neutral. And those people that were just vehemently wanting the cults out by any means necessary. It kind of all comes to a big head during
“an election. Yes. Which I thought was so interesting. So tell me about it's more than just the”
election before that there was a deal made where somehow some of the members were given the right vote. Yes. So again, when I'm mentioning that there's some people in town that were more neutral towards the cult, there were a couple of people. There's Ricky and there's a woman in town named Melinda, who were more supportive of the cult. They would appear on the cult's live streams. They were given ministerial titles in Romana's cabinet. So they were there talking about how much they thought
the cult was doing good work. They didn't. They shouldn't be villainised in this way. And so over time this woman named Melinda added 12 members of the cult, including Romana, Deetalow herself, to the land title of one of her plots of land in town. It was kind of like more like this junkyard, but she added them to the land title. And so people in town got really freaked out when they learned about this because they were like, okay, we have this election coming up at the end of
2024. It's a mayoral election, town council. And what if this means that 12 people in a town of 120 people, fewer than that, can actually vote. But that's like 10% of the voting population at least. Maybe they could really swing this election and get the current mayor who was quite liked by a lot of people in town and was really against the cult being against the cult living there. They could swing this election. So that just again, it was this other whole dimension to this story where
someone locally was putting them on land title and it just people were freaked right out. Why are you doing this and what could this mean for the future of our town? And it was another one of the quote unquote neutral community members that ran against the mayor. That's right, a man named Jodi Smith was someone who told me he feared some of the locals more than the cult because as weeks went on, some people in town would go up to the fence of the school, scream at them,
in the middle of the night, yell for them to leave beyond Facebook groups, kind of just, very worked up about the presence of the cults. There was this video circulating online showing people wearing dead of night, people wearing clown costumes, lighting, Romana's kingdom of Canada flag on fire and just kind of standing there in clown suits lighting something on fire. Great creepy. It's a bit creepy. So people were alarmed by that. There were other altercations
in town between people who were deemed cult sympathizers because they weren't out there protesting
Against the cult.
like Jodi Smith comes in and he's like, you know, maybe I'm going to run for mayor. He also
had his own grievances with the town of sort of small town politics. For instance, he was someone who wanted to be able to have a chicken coop in his backyard and was like, why can't we have chicken coop? That should be a bylaw that that we're allowed to have chicken coop in our backyard. And so that was sort of the cult issue became something that was part of a broader campaign that he wanted to really change the town. And so he ran against Brad Miller, the incumbent mayor,
very much against the cult. And so it really became this very tense election. I was also unfolding as the U.S. election was unfolding, but I was much more focused. Now that's the same. The only version of the world. Exactly. So, you know, and there was just up until the polls
“had closed, there was just will they won't they? Will the cult come out and vote? Won't they?”
Maybe they won't. Yeah. In the end, they didn't spoil earlier. But yeah, it was a bad one. And Brad won. Yeah. And it was just a very tense election that was like centered around this cult in a way. You keep saying cult very comfortably. You're comfortable with what I calling it a cult.
I mean, that is like a, I have my own opinions about it, but I know people always like
really mash hands trying to make the decision. But you call it a cult. Here you call it a cult during the podcast. That's something you're good with. Yeah. I think from the reporting that's been done by myself and a lot of other people, a lot of academic work that's been done and researched on this group. I think it's clear that it checks a lot of boxes for criteria of what counts as a cult. I mean, there's this adherence to extreme ideology perpetuated by a leader who has
great power over a number of people. There's, if people are in the group, they're often alienated from their family and community supports. We see that in this group for sure. Financial dependence,
financial extortion to an extent. I would say, so there's just a lot of characteristics of this
“group that I think makes myself and a lot of people comfortable calling it a cult. Do you have any”
idea of what the living conditions were for the people living in the school? We can see based on live stream, as well as reports from family members of some people who had been living in the school. They were very concerned that, again, it seemed to be a lot of people who were older, who needed medical care and medication. A lot of family members were concerned that in the school, they were living without heat, without proper cooling. So in Saskatchewan, it gets really, really
cold in the entire and hot. Yeah. So they're worried about the conditions in the school. They're worried about their loved ones having access to medication, medical care. There was an instance where someone was taken to the hospital, very mysterious circumstances. We don't know what happened with that. And concerns that they were being forced to work for Romanda and various capacities around the clock, whether that was security around the perimeter of the school, being online on telegram and
other online channels, communicating with potential followers, asking for money, that sort of thing.
“So there was just a concern that they were being run into the ground. Are they getting fed properly?”
There's just a lot of questions. So we can tell that it's this abandoned school that really wasn't up to code. And so when you have a group of people living in a place that's not supposed to be a residence, it raised a lot of concerns for people. But there's still a lot that we don't know about what exactly we were dealing with in terms of the conditions in the school. We do know that after the arrest of Romanda and after everyone who was living there was forced to leave Saskatchewan health authorities
deemed it uninhabitable and it's been closed off ever since. So that gives us an indication that the conditions were obviously a problem. Yeah. You mentioned her arrest. All told how long did they live there? About two years they lived there. And how did it end? Do you indicate there was an arrest? There was an arrest. So in September of last year, as September 2025, the RCMP conducted an early morning raid on the school based on what they ended up talking about at the press conference was
there was reports of imitation or replica guns in the school. So they went in and arrested Romanda. They arrested the followers living inside the school. Romanda and others were charged. Ricky Manz was also eventually charged. I'm fast forwarding through a few things here. That's okay. But it then came to be that part of Romanda's bail conditions was she wasn't allowed back in the school, had to live in Regina. And so that raid and arrest of Romanda and her followers was the
End of their time in Richmond.
proceedings on going against her pertaining to have to look up the exact charges obstruction of justice
imitation of a justice system participant. Don't quote me on that. You can fill that in. And she is out on bail representing herself. She is not hiring a lawyer. It doesn't have a lawyer representing her because she goes by natural law and she's the leader of the country. So she's going to defend herself. And she is awaiting her preliminary inquiry proceedings and sort of in this back and forth right now with the Crown Prosecutor over disclosure in her case that she's fighting for. So she's
representing herself. We'll see how that goes. But it's sort of keeps getting delayed due to like procedural things in the case. I understand the fall of Q and on the coming of COVID, all of us
living online, the rise of conspiracy theories, the need to find somebody who can kind of help you
figure out your way through the fear of that time. But what I wouldn't, it's because she's not really
“out there. But did you see a charismatic leader and do you understand what people found in her?”
And especially now that a lot of that stuff is gone. I mean, I'm not saying conspiracy is an online or is gone. But the tension and the build up is lessened. She's kind of made her way through Canada sort of probably, a lot of people have decided that they're uninterested. But tell me about her. What is it about her or is that faltering that brings people to her in the way that they have? It's a good question. I think whether or not someone is a charismatic leader or not,
I think there's figures, leaders of cults who are objectively charismatic. I don't think that applies to her. She kind of bucks a lot of the stereotypes and notions that we think of when it comes to a charismatic leader or a cult leader. But I do think genuinely for those who follow her, they do find her charismatic. And maybe it's in line with a lot of the reasons that you said she was saying the right things at the right time. She also has a sense of humor. She kind of,
she makes fun of political leaders. She can kind of have this snarky, sarcastic side to her. So I could see why people are drawn to that more humor aside of her. She also loves to dance. She is someone and she loves to rest of you. She loves Boniems, Rasput. Yeah, loves play. On every livestream, she has her own kind of like rendition of it. Pressure is a queen of Canada or something. Wow. So she likes to dance. She has this kind of quirky
“side that I could see people. She's fun. She's fun. I think for some people to an extent. So I can”
see why people would be drawn to her. And she kind of, because we don't know a lot about her background as we're talking about before. She's kind of able to create this mystery and this mythology around her. She talks about, you know, communing with aliens and being appointed by or supported by Putin and Trump. And she in her early days presented herself as the shapeshifter who could infiltrate your dreams. Like, there's just sort of these things that she talks about that are,
I think if you're into that, stuff could be appealing. And she's saying the right things like, who doesn't, who, you know, not paying taxes, not paying your bills. I could see that being appealing to some people. So she's saying the right things. And I think there's parts of her that people latch on to. I've talked to you before the last time you were on the show. We talked about another leader who, you know, more tragically ended up with his followers being dead.
What have you learned about with all of your research and your time looking into these
charismatic leaders? Because I've done it too. I finally get every project you do that's like this.
You start to sort of put pieces together more and more about what makes these people take and more so what makes people want to follow them. Like, what, where do you think Romanna, if you said she's not quite, she bucks a bit of the trend. But what are you starting to kind of put together in your own journalistic mind about why or how or who she is? You know what I mean? Yeah, there are, I think quite a few similarities between our last conversation, the leader
“of Smith, was COVID conspiracies, the end times were coming and that's what drew a lot of”
people in because he was picking up on a lot of these ideas that people were feeling generally like as this, you know, mistrust of the government, mistrust of society. I think those are bigger themes that play into Romanna as well. So Romanna is someone who, you know, picks up on the very zeitgeisty moments, this mistrust of health authorities, this mistrust of science and education, very against, she's very against education. And at this moment, we're so polarized
In the types of information and news and content that we consume online.
about her that picks up on that and capitalizes on this polarization that's becoming more and
“more apparent. Certainly was apparent in rich man and I think it's that polarization, this”
unwillingness to see nuance and kind of engage with uncomfortable truths or the gray areas of our
lives and institutions that give rise to someone like her. Yeah. If that makes sense. It does. It does.
“Yes. It's fascinating. Thank you. Great work. And it was really nice to see you again. Thank you,”
too.
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You can also find us on YouTube. Just search and subscribe to CBC True Crime. The show is hosted by me Kathleen Goldhardt. Our producers are Nicki Manfretty and Hedil Abdel Navi. Sound design and video production by Julie Euselli, Reza Daya and Evan Aigart. Our digital producer is Emily Canal and our YouTube producer is John Lee. Our senior producer is Kate Evans. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager of CBC
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