The Stoic Secrets Great Leaders Use | Daniel Coyle

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Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast.

“Designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.”

Hey, it's Ryan and welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast. Today we're going to be talking about leadership. Right, when we think of leaders, we picture that lone figure at the top. The emperor, the CEO, the head coach, the self-made billionaire. The person who got themselves there at a sheer willpower and strengths and brilliance and superiority.

But that's not how the stoic saw it, that's not how it is. And that's not what we're going to be talking about today. Dan Poel has spent years studying what actually makes great teams and organizations work. I was just down to the Chicago Cubs and I was talking to the GM actually, his name's Carter Hawkins. And he had previously been with the Cleveland Guardians.

And I asked him if he knew Dan Poel and he just went and raved about Dan, who happened to have stopped by the studio, not too long ago. You might know some of his books. You wrote the culture code, the talent code, the little book of talent. He has this new book called Flourish.

But basically, his is sort of thinking and writing on leadership is taking him inside some of the most successful groups in the world.

As I said, lead sports teams, military units, companies, hedge funds. We're all trying to create leaders and cultivate leader shit. So what we're going to focus on in today's episode is something that he and I talked about. Because leadership isn't about pulling levers and controlling outcomes. It's not about genius or superiority.

It's actually about relationships. It's about meaning. It's about building environments where people feel safe, feel connected like their contribution matters. These are the conditions where teams and groups and countries and communities flourish. So let's get into some of that.

When we talk about leader, there's a mental model that comes in all of our minds that we're kind of entrained on, which is like, Captain of the ship, right? I'm steering. I'm controlling. I'm in charge of things.

“And I think a lot of us start out with that model and a lot of our systems are built with that model.”

Yes. And what happens, at least as I've experienced it in the three books that I've written that connect with this, is that most leaders go through this process where they do that for a while, then they reach kind of a turning point and all of a sudden that they realize they have some insight. Some road to Damascus.

Yeah. That's at the correct road. Some road to Damascus moment where it's like, this is not working. I'm running it like it's a machine. I'm trying to put levers and get instructions and have measurable outcomes and absolutely push, push, push.

And what they do is they let go of the reins a little bit. And that's the time when they start cluing into how I would argue the world actually works, which is that it's not a machine, it's more like a garden that you can grow and cultivate and have moved in a certain way. And all the good organization is not a machine.

And organization is ultimately, it has machine-like functions, but ultimately like down super deep,

it's a living thing, right? And if you're going to beat entropy, if you're going to like keep surviving and adapting in this changing world, if you operate like it's a machine you can steer, you'll reach the end. Like it will stop working. So what these leaders do is they realize a couple things. The first is that they need to create a sense of meaning and mattering.

They need to really have people connect and build relationships. That adds up being area number one. Area number two is they need to design space for agency. They need to create spaces. Organizations aren't machines.

“They're function more like rivers, like you need to have clear boundaries.”

What we're not going to do? Yes, river banks can just stand strong. It's not going to do it where we're not going to do. We need to have a gradient, like a horizon. We're going toward, right? We're going that direction. And anything you do in that space, go do it.

Have some agency. And the good organization, when you look at the seals, when you look at Pixar, when you look at top performing organizations, what their leaders do inevitably, I think, is they create that sense of mattering and meaning, which you can think of as almost like that's the connective energy.

Like that's the cells that are alive that are connected. And now we're going to channel that energy into this direction, not here, not here in this space. And now it's up to you guys. Go do it.

We think of the leader as being the sort of the solitary figure.

As of the leader, it is not themselves being led and taught and coach. Hmm. Yeah. How do you think about that? I think it's changing.

Yeah.

“Now it's, you know, I work with the Cleveland Guardians a little bit.”

And a little bit, I mean, you've been in a long time. Twelve years, twelve years. Yeah. We have a coach, Stephen Vote. He's the best coach of baseball.

And somebody asked him then in a call. Like, who do you go to for advice? And he goes, well, I have a coach. Yeah. Right?

We think, oh, you need a coach to a certain point in life. Yeah.

As Dave F. Steen has pointed out, like, that point never stops.

Does it? Like, the best leaders are always trying to, because it's a challenging job. And because you've got to create a space where you can get insight. Yes. So they're intentionally.

And I guess this goes back to the basic principles we're talking about. They're intentionally creating space where they can connect to that meaning. And also experiment. In directions, it's kind of revering their way toward an insight. Like, oh, wow, that works.

I didn't think that would work, but that does work. And also just someone who has more reps than you in the thing.

“Not that they, not even necessarily that they've done it.”

Because some of the coaches aren't actually good at the thing they're doing. Yes. Right? Like, your swing coach might not actually be a great golfer. Oh, man. But they've worked with hundreds and hundreds of other people.

So they've seen all the different swings. And they've studied it a thousand. You need your own experience to not have enough breath to sustain and help you in all the different contingencies that you're going to bump into. One of the big elements for me with this, with looking at this stuff, has been the difference between complicated and complex.

Hmm. We use that as the least synonyms, right? Sure. It ain't complicated things come together the same way every time. A set of Legos.

Instructions to build a Ferrari. Oh, watch. Oh, watch. Same. Every single time.

Right? You put it together. You'll get a watch. Complex things change as you interact with them. Hmm.

So the question asked, is it more like building a watch? Is it more like raising a teenager? Yeah. There's no set of instructions. There's no 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Right. And so yet we walk through life because of the way our brains are built.

Always sort of seeing machines.

And the way we're also kind of trained. Yeah. I think. We're always looking from machines. Always assuming things are machines.

We're always looking for that straight line solution. Yeah. There will fix it. Like they will allow us that sense of control that we want. And I think leaders especially who realize it's not complicated.

It's actually complex. We're on this journey of experimenting that's going to take us left and right and around. And they'll be new stuff. And when that new stuff appears, I need to be ready for it. If it's complex, you want as much information as you could possibly have.

And you want to learn by experience.

“The best way to mathematician would say is.”

And complex systems dynamic theory would say is the best way to learn when it's complicated is find the expert. Like find the expert who's a watchmaker. When it's complex, you have to learn to experience. Probe is the word. So do an experiment.

Yeah. Don't experiment. See what happens. And then you'll get what they would call attractors like patterns will come up that you notice. And you're like, oh, that's cool.

Oh, that sucks. And then you kind of follow where that takes you. Yeah. And that's kind of how we live our lives actually when you zoom way out. Well, it's funny, maybe we're some of this stuff intersects with what I write about.

I'm fascinated by this sort of brief period of Roman history aware. Hey, Drins, the emperor. And he is having to choose a successor. There's a handful of Roman emperors who don't have sons. And they have to choose their successor.

So he's having to choose, you know, somebody for a job. They're only like 15 other people have ever had. And so, you know, who does he pick? And for some reason, he picks this kid who would become Marcus Aurelius. You know, a privilege, but otherwise, you know, unremarkable person.

And he decides to groom him for power. But he understands he doesn't have enough time left. So he adopts this older Roman senator named Antoninus. On the condition that Antoninus in turn adopt Marcus Aurelius. So this sort of, she's not just choosing his successor.

He's choosing his successor's successor. And he probably thinks that Antoninus is going to live for, I don't know, five years or something. Or maybe he even thinks like at some point, Marcus Aurelius kill him. And then he'll take over, like, just the brutality of the, of the, the ancient world is going to handle this problem. But instead, Antoninus is for two decades.

And these two men, Mark's realist in Antoninus who have no affiliation other than they were just thrown together by this guy who they're also not related to. They develop an incredible affinity for each other. So, so Antoninus rules, he takes seriously that he's going to tutor this kid. And at some point, Marcus becomes co-emperer.

Again, like this never happened before in human history.

So Antoninus ruling and teaching, then, then they're co-ruling together. But it's basically this, this two decade apprenticeship. And then eventually Marcus really becomes emperor. And then this, where the story gets interesting, he has a son. His son is comedist. So, one version is comedist.

It's a 15 year head start of, on the job training.

Like, it's, it's as bad as what King Phoenix's character portrays him in body. And so, you know, what goes wrong. So, it's, it's rare that you, because history is not a science experiment. You don't get to control for your variables. But here you have, like, this sort of compare and contrast. It works in one case.

And then it does it work in this other case. I'm just endlessly fascinated with, first off, the idea of, like, actually saying, "Hey, I want to learn everything I can about this job I'm about to take." Yeah. And then, you know, how somebody else who decides not to do it, because so terribly.

“It makes me think of so much, the NFL coaching trees, right?”

Well, sometimes they do not, right? You're a apprenticeship of the Renaissance, right? These long periods where it was just, this is craft. Yeah. You might be painting the 16 chapel, but, you know what? You got to get your reps. You think you're ready? You're not even close.

You're not even close to 20 years. Yeah, let's hang out. Like, you're going to mix some paints for a while. Yeah. Right? It's that. And so, that ends up being, I think it gives you a clear vision on how talent is actually grown. And also, especially that motivational piece.

Yes. You know, the kid who's born into, hey, I've got this great mentor. And I've spent 20 years in the versus the kid who's just born thinking, hey, silver spoon. I've got it. I'm next in line. I'm good. It's like potential could be biological or genetic. Yep.

Because you're born in this position or not, you're this height or this height. You have this fast twitch muscle fiber or you don't. But then everything from there, the swing vote is, do you cultivate it? Do you do the work? Do you have the teachers? Right.

Do you follow the tradition? Which ends up looking not like a machine, but like an ecosystem.

“And you have to have a source of energy for it.”

Yes. Commitus maybe wasn't psyched to do that role. Maybe he was psyched about something else. Well, we're told by this one ancient historian that that Mark is sort of aware of this. One of the interesting things about Mark's role is his meditations is the first like ten pages

or just him thinking all his teachers and mentors.

And he says one of the things he learned from Antonyne is to always see the flirt experts to learn from other people.

We're told by a historian who lives through communist's reign that Mark is selects a group of people, not just one senator, but he says the best men in the empire to teach this person. And at some point very early on, communist goes, you know, I don't want to listen to the old guys anymore.

Yeah. And that is to me probably that that's the critical divergence. Isn't that crazy to think about like one morning he gets up and he's kind of sick of it? Yeah.

“And that emotion ends up changing the course of human history.”

I mean, that is the decline in fall of Rome begins there. It begins with that mass Romana ends with comedists. Yep. And you know, the end of the empire you could argue ends with him too, because yeah, you know, one guy decides he's a note all and therefore knows all there is to know.

One of the things that Dan and I were talking about is how Mark's really is thanks his mentors and meditations. But that's actually read what some of Mark's things those mentors for. I'm getting out this my leather mound copy of Meditations. It's actually the one if you've ever seen me do my talks is the one I tend to bring on stage.

Here's what Mark has really thanks rusticous for.

The recognition that I needed to train and discipline my character, not to be side track by my interest in rhetoric. He says to read attentively and not be satisfied with just getting the gist of things and not fall for every smooth talker. Here's what he thinks.

Here's what he thinks apolonious for independence and unvarying reliability to pay attention to nothing. No matter how fleeting, accept the logos. And to be the same in all circumstances intense pain, loss of a child chronic illness. And to see clearly from his example that a man can show both strength and flexibility. He thinks sexist for teaching him kindness to display gravity without errors.

He thinks his wretter teacher fronto for teaching him how to recognize the malice cunning and hypocrisy that power produces. And of course, from Antonyne's greatest teacher he learns compassion, unwavering adherence to decisions, indifference to superficial honors, hard work, persistence. Listening to anyone who could contribute to the public good, a sense of when depression went to back off.

His search in questions at meetings, kind of single-mindedness almost never contend with first impressions

or breaking off the discussion prematurely. His constancy to his friends never getting fed up with them or playing favorites, self-fulliance always, and to cheerfulness. His constant devotion to the empire's needs, his stewardship of the treasury, is willingness to take responsibility and blame. The way he handled the material comforts that fortune supplied to him in such abundance, without arrogance and without apology. If they were there, he took advantage of them, if not, he didn't miss them.

But most of all, I am struck by what he learns from Maximus. I should just read this one on stage the other day, says from Maximus he learned self-control and resistance to distractions, optimism in adversity, especially illness,

Other people's certainty that what he said was what he thought, and that what he did was done with how malice.

“Never taken a back or apprehensive, either rash nor hesitant or bewildered or at a loss, not obsequious, but not aggressive or paranoid either.”

Generosity, charity, honesty, the sense he gave of staying on the path rather than being kept on it. And those are just a couple of the things he thinks, but back to me and damn. Springsteen has been the news lately, and it's like he talks about the moment he saw Elvis on the television. Yeah. Like the moment, right, these moments of ignition, and they're not about information.

They're not about like learning some fact or seeing some person.

It is about this energized relationship where you are, you find yourself mattering. You find this sense that you're seeing some immense value, some enchanted circle.

“And those moments, I think, they happen all the time and they end up driving these big things that happened both in history and in our lives individually.”

And, cluing into them as a parent, I think about that a lot. As a community member, I think about that a lot as somebody using in a high performing organization.

It's like, how do we cultivate those? Like, where did that happen?

I can't help but wonder, like, where did that happen for you? Can you get lit up at a pretty young age? I did. I mean, someone handed me the ideas from the Stokes and I was like, oh, where's this band? I meant, yeah, I'm in. Go back and inch, but like, what led you to be in? What led me to see it or what led you to be? Why were you craving it? Why were you craving it? What inch did it scratch for you or where did it?

Where did it go? Why one thing lights this up and another doesn't, I think there is, I do think there's something sort of other worldly about. I don't know how much choice we have over that. You saw Elvis through the TV. Yeah, I think there's just some, sometimes it lines up. Like why this person loves physics and this person loves physical education, you know, who knows? But like the decision to me that's interesting is what do you do next? Like, because how many people go, oh, that's impossible or, oh, but that seems like a lot of work or that's not for people like me.

“Or, you know, it's one of the barriers. What I do with it, that's what ultimately matters. Right. Right. It's true. You get your reps, right?”

Or do the reps or not. Yeah. Right. I think you see this a lot with athletes that you've seen come in through the organizations or you see someone who has all the raw materials, but it just doesn't happen. And the reverse, someone who's like, yeah, they're too short, just slow, don't, don't, don't, don't, but they can absolutely do it. And it is this, you know, it's a combination of things, but it is any system is a good way to look at it because look, you're going to need to need to have be plugged into some big source of energy. Yeah. My favorite example of this is Jose Ramirez. He's five foot seven. He was signed for $50,000. He walks like, do you ever watch Joy of the Jefferson's George Jefferson?

He's the most swagger walk, he's the most swagger guy on the planet Jose is. And when he got to the major leagues, there was another player who was brought up with him. And the other player was getting autographs of the other major leagueers in the clubhouse. And they were in Jose, he said, Jose should you want to get some autographs and he goes, they should ask me for my autograph. Like, I'm Jose Ramirez. Is that confidence or is that, do you go? I think it's earned at some level. It's it's deeply earned, but in a sport, it's a unique context.

It's a sport where you fail a lot and having that kind of crazy self belief can be helpful to a point. And then man, that guy gets his reps that guy pays every swing matters. He knows what he is up to with every rep and he gets more out of each rep. So from the distance, oh yeah, he's just super confident. That helped from from depth. He's absolutely it's based deeply on something. So I told you I was at this Airbnb here in Maui on the strictly took and, oh man, the mattresses were not good. I did not sleep well. The kids did not sleep well.

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That he thought would explain him as the leader he is today. So let me put that in here. How fearless he was. How he walked in and felt like instantly he was not intimidated by the major league environment.

“And the question is when you dig into that, is like, where does that fearlessness come from? Where does that confidence come from?”

And when you look into that, you go back to when he was 13 years old in Bonnie in the Dominican Republic and Jose was playing for an adult league. And it was some tough guys and there was some gambling and he has said that behind home play, they kept a machete kind of for, I guess, inspiration you might say. So that's the kind of background that he came out. And when you come out playing game after game with that kind of pressure, the big leagues maybe isn't intimidating to him as it would be to some other folks.

Okay, back to Dan and I chatting with the studio. I bet you see people who everyone is trying to get to put in the work, trying to give them the things they need to realize that potential. And it's just not getting through. And I suspect that at some level, that's the story of Communists. There's also this fascinating statue of Senika in Nero and you know, Senika is like trying to teach Nero and Nero just kind of sit. It's just your classic, no way.

So in petulant teenager that could not give two shits less, you know, that unreachability is probably what keeps coaches up at night. Like, I know if I could reach this kid, they could do it. Absolutely, they're so defended. Yeah. And they're so defended by what got them there.

Yeah. I've always been the best player, they're very well defended. And what ends up working in some cases is,

well, works in every, every case, really, is a moment of vulnerability. Sometimes with an injury, sometimes with getting sent down, you'll have a window where they're kind of reachable.

“And vulnerability, I think we often, we sometimes think of vulnerability the wrong way.”

Like moments of shared vulnerability are what create relationships. They're not that you don't have to like build up trust before you can be vulnerable. Like, it's the vulnerability that makes it happen. And so having conversations during that time and creating a space where they can reflect and maybe find some new mental models and some new meaning and a new type of strength. Like, there's the brittle strength. I'll show you on the best player.

I've always been the best player. That's, that's brittle in the end.

But then you've got something softer, something stronger, something that's more oriented often around service. Around being good teammate. Yes.

“Around realizing that, hey, if you go over for foreign, the team wins, that's a good day, right?”

So finding that, that level of, it's sort of a growing up process for them many times. And these days, if you're 19 year grade athlete, you haven't had that many reps at growing up. Yes. So approaching them with the ton of patience and understanding because the easiest thing to do is to say, Right. Right. Right. Really, really tempting. And that's true to a point.

Yeah. But if you continue to create that space and continue to give them opportunities to get those reps growing up, you end up with a better outcome. Actual, actual growth, which is painful, but worth it. Yeah. The coach that's able to sort of wait for the opportunity or the way in, like they know this person needs to hear this thing. But they also know they're not ready to hear that thing. Yep. And they're willing to give them the latitude, yep, and the time till they're ready to come around.

In a way, like it is, because that's what it kind of takes. It's a gift. It's like, give them that space. So yeah, you're thinking about, it's that 20 years of day-to-day instruction. Right. Like, you think about, that's why you need that time.

“And you could argue that I think a lot of organizations and industries fail. I mean, even our industry, like in publishing, like, how many authors do more than one book with the same publisher?”

Yeah. Is extremely rare. And then publishers wonder why, you know, they have to miss so many times. It's because you don't cultivate or develop talent. You've decided to be a one-off transactional relationship industry. And then you don't cultivate talent. How many coaches stay with the same team? How many players, you know, get shipped it? Like, because, because everyone is looking, you have to have that short-term success.

It prevents you from developing long-term leaders and long-term talent. It's so true. And then the deeper irony that is, we're so terrible at predicting who's going to be good. Yes. You think we'd have to be serious about it. You think we would? You think we don't get that person of the chance. Like, really, people, there is. I mean, Sam Darrell.

Yeah. Oh, my God. You're right. Right. That's perfect. Yes. That's perfect. Right. Yeah.

I mean, and weirdly, that story is more common than Drake May, who was leading a team to a Super Bowl, like in his first season or second season or whatever.

Like, it's much more common that people struggle and fail and eventually come around and then surprise us, somehow that's surprising. Right. Even though it's the most common story, but instead we go number one draft pick should be good, out of the gate, and then they're not. And we get rid of them. Right. And then you go, you know, even one layer deeper there and you always find that community of people. There's so many, you know, there's a lot of science on this too, but it's just like it's, you know,

Donald is not an individual, actually. Right. There is this whole dance that's going on with information and with movement on the field, and he's a part of that. And as a whole, they're quite effective. And you could pull them out of that and he would stop being effective. But we can't stop focusing on the individual and celebrating the individual and every time, especially with this latest project, it's just like, man, the power of community. It's like, you always see the solitary genius in the lone hero and then you go, well, kind of, let's go a little deeper there. What about that moment when, you know, you had the mentor.

And so in my life anyway, earning to even though I'm singleing out those individuals, learning to like actually squint my eyes a little bit and look for the lattice work of relationships and those moments that helped form them through time.

And those reps where nothing happened and then finally things came together. It's like, it's always way more complex than you think.

Yeah, it's like a successful president has a cabinet, which is the official relationships. Then they have what we call the kitchen cabinet, which is the unofficial advisors and teachers. And then maybe they have a spouse and you know, like there's there is this huge network of people that are involved. And if they don't have it, they are the solitary figures. Those are usually not just the most miserable of the leaders, but ultimately they make some catastrophic, unforced error. You know, I'm sure there are a lot of people that could have told Putin exactly how invading your crane would go.

“Yeah, right, right, not a secret, except for there are no people who could tell them that because that is a Kamikaze mission.”

That's right. And that is the sort of trap that dictators in sort of imperial CEOs and whatever, you know, whatever the less sort of violent authoritarian version of it is is the more isolated you are the worse. You are because you're just getting less information and insights. The group range really pretty good. You know, we call a group thing, but like sometimes yeah, that can hold you back, but most of the time it also holds you back from plunging off a cliff. Yes, with genuine curiosity, and I keep seeing, you know, I talked to a guy named Dave Cooper one time who headed up the people who got been locked and maybe sealed team six commander.

And he said, the most foremost important words that a leader can say are, "I screwed that up." Right. And they go, it goes two directions. You are fallible. You have wrong instincts. You screwed things up, sure. But to everybody around you, it creates that space where they can step in and say, "Oh, I can help you. They can help you before you screw it up." Because they know you're interested in, you're okay with being wrong.

You got to talk to me. He would stand next to a window and kind of do it on purpose and then there'd be someone new in the room. He would say, "Hey, you got to tell me to move away from the window. I didn't realize I was standing by the window. That's a dangerous place for me to stand."

“Grab me. If you have to grab me, grab me. Creating that space where you're saying, "Hey, you have a voice.”

This is not just safe for you to speak up, but it's you have a role here. It's really important that you speak up." There's a story about Hadrian who was actually not that great of a leader. He was a problem at, and I ironically, not the model that Mark's really wants to model himself after it.

It's ultimately not tonight, but there's a story about Hadrian arguing with one of his advisors over some philosophical question or mathematical questions.

Some thing that they're arguing over and they go back and forth and eventually the advisor says, "You know, actually, you know what you're right.

You're like objectively right here. There's no, let me show you, you know, why you're actually correct.

“And the advisor goes, "I think you're mistaken." He says, "The man who commands 40 legions is always correct."”

And that is the problem with being the leader or the person, especially if you are intimidating or vindictive or, you know, with holding or any of those things that can serve as a sort of, not just to deterrent, but then also a punishment to people who correct you or you end up not getting the thing you desperately want. And so to do that, that jujitsu that is required of do that, of constantly humbling yourself, of constantly asking the least powerful person what they think of, of constantly invoking stories where you screwed up, is like ends up being like the stoic practice, maybe, of like this sucks,

but God it creates conditions for this, for this group, brain to light up a little bit and knocks us out of our reflexive hierarchical kind of wince that we all do around power. And so these, the leaders that I've been around have got those jujitsu moves down.

They always are saying, "I'm probably off on this. I don't know how we, what do you think Bob?"

And they're constantly deflecting, they're constantly walking around and saying, "Hey, if you could change one thing about what we do here, what would it be?" Yeah. One thing, change one thing. They're like a little fire hose of little signals that are like, "I'm an idiot. It's kind of what all of them say, you know, help me." What they're not doing is what leaders think works, they go like, "My door is always open." Nope.

“And then they think that's what's going to create a culture of feedback and criticism and, you know, sharing.”

No, right, exactly. It doesn't come close. You have to actually build spaces, platforms, support people to get in that room and say those things, because we don't typically want to. There's a story, I think I told him, "Wism takes work about Elon Musk or someone." He just shared something horrendously offensive and stupid on Twitter and one of his employees was like, "Hey, I got genuinely worried that you shared this." You know, like, 1% of the population would fall for this thing and you fell for, you know, he's like sort of laying into him.

Right. And Elon Musk, like, "You're a fucking fire." You know, he fires him, kicks him out of the room, and then later in that same meeting, he says, "Why is anyone else talking?" Okay. You know, it's like, because you just executed someone and they're in front of them. Yeah. Like, they're not only not going to share in this meeting, they're not going to share some safety concern or some legal concern.

Nine months from now or nine years from now, they could prove catastrophic because you just gave them a very powerful demonstration of what you do when people criticize you to your face.

It's unbelievable. The lack of awareness of some of that stuff is almost hard to believe. Our capacity for self-deception is. And the time was this of it. Right. This is what? This is mythic. Kings were doing 10,000 years ago and, you know, it's also what, you know, parents do.

We go, like, "I want you to come to me with anything." Right. And then the last time they came to you, you grounded them and then you wondered why they, they're not opening up to you. And underneath it all, like, I'm so fast away at that moment, those moments because another sort of big unlock for me. This idea that we've got two attention systems, like we have kind of a task attention system that likes to do that kind of stuff,

that likes control, that it feels like people, "No one rid me of this priest." You know, that says bold things and that sees the world through a very, very narrow tube. And that is built, the evolutionary part is fascinating, that is built to grab food, is built to spot something valuable, control it. When the, quickly, when the interaction you're currently in task attention, when it, right? And then there's this other form of attention, you know, relational attention, where it's like, "Oh, evolutionarily, I need to pay attention to the sky, to the social fabric, I need to be nuanced, I need to really connect to what's going on."

And the unlock was that they compete. You can't have both on at the same time, sure. And in all these moments, there are all, like, examples of people who are feeling super strong.

“Because that's how you feel when you're controlling, it feels great to say that.”

Musk felt awesome when he said it. Yeah, yeah, he was reveling in his power. So much control. Yeah. And the move, over and over again, is to, like, surrender that and say, "Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, I really can't control it."

I'm really not the center of everything, I can't control everything. I'm just a person in this space, what's going, what is this, what's actually going on here? And the leaders who have the ability to make that move, yeah, where they got to be a leader, something, because they like control a lot of times. But to have that move where they can actually sort of, like, go or parents who can have that move and actually sort of let go.

It's like endlessly powerful.

The flipping between short-term long-term. Do I want to write about the couch or do I want to stay married? Yeah. Do I want to decide my kids major? Do I want them to bring their grandkids around 20 years old? You know, like, like, how do you think about the, are you in the trap of the present moment?

It's funny because we think, like, we go, they're philosophical.

It's not like they know Aristotle. Right.

“It's like the lowercase philosophical, I think to me, it's like, can you see the big picture?”

Can you go to what really matters? Right.

And then you're in these exchanges where the thing you're trying to win doesn't fucking matter at all.

Right. And our societies sort of increasingly built around those types of exchanges. And as we wrap up here, one thing that stands out to me from this conversation is how simple some of these ideas are, but how easy they are to overlook. And of course, how difficult they are to put into practice.

Culture isn't built through big speeches or strategies. Leadership isn't this performative thing. It's built through small signals repeated over and over again.

“And I think that's what Dan's work reminds us of.”

If leadership is more like 10 in a garden than running a machine, and the job isn't control, it's about creating the conditions, making the example,

so that people feel safe enough to contribute to grow and ultimately to flourish.

Thanks again to Dan for coming out to the pain and push to have this conversation in person. If you're looking to become a better leader in your personal or professional life, I think you should check out the culture code, the talent code, the little book of talent. If course is new book, flourish. I'll link to those in today's show notes.

You can go to his website, Danielcoil.com. And then we also have a big course.

“We did here at DailyStoke all about leadership that I think you like,”

but DailyStoke leadership challenge. To a long discourse, to our most involved course, a bunch of in-depth interviews like this one in there, and you can find all that at DailyStoke.com/leadorship. Or if you join us in DailyStoke Life at DailyStokeLife.com, you get that course and all of our courses for free as part of it.

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. [MUSIC PLAYING]