A Trump Dissenter Fights for His Political Life

authoritarian era, or are we on the brink of a technological golden age, or the apocalypse?

“No one really knows, but I'm trying to find out. From New York Times opinion, I'm”

lost out and on my show, interesting times, I'm exploring this strange new world order, the thinkers and leaders giving it shape. Follow it wherever you get your podcasts. From New York Times, I'm Michael Varo. This is the daily. You know what the name is? Is the worst person? His name is what the hell? How did he ever end up in Kentucky? In Kentucky on Tuesday, amid his own record-low approval ratings,

President Trump is asking Republican primary voters to reject a Republican congressman

that they've elected seven times before. His name is Thomas Messy.

Representative Thomas Messy. Messy's a complete and total disaster as a congressman and frankly as a human being. A fiercely proud conservative who is broken with Trump on just

“a handful of votes. "We got to get rid of this loser. This guy is bad. He's disroiled”

to the Republican party. He's disloyaled to the people of Kentucky, and most importantly, he's disloyaled to the United States of America. And he's got to be voted out of office as soon as possible." Instead, Trump wants Kentucky Republicans to elect his hand-picked challenger, Ed Gallerine,

and what has become the most expensive house primary in American history.

"On the other hand, Ed Gallerine has my complete and total endorsement. He's a true American hero and he's a great patriot." Today, Times political correspondent Robert Draper and Daily Producer Katelyn O'Keef travel to Kentucky to find out whether a popular congressman can still disset from an increasingly unpopular president.

It's Tuesday, May 19th. Robert, welcome back to the Daily. Thanks for having me, Barry. Anytime. We have established quite clearly on the show that President Trump has decided to use these mid-term primary elections to try to take out his rivals within the Republican

party and impose as much discipline on the party as humanly possible. And so far, he's largely succeeded in that goal, taking out Republicans who fought him in Indiana, and just a few days ago in Louisiana. And there's one last revenge race that remains and in your capacity as a chronicler of a Republican party and the fights within it, you decided that that race

“was the most important or at least the most interesting, which is why I'm talking to you”

from the place where that race is about to occur Kentucky. Why did you decide that that primary was so important? largely because Thomas Massey, the seven-term incumbent of Kentucky's fourth congressional district, has been more defiant, pretty much than all the other Republicans put together. Repeatedly, Massey has defied Trump's wishes and has seemed cheerfully uncaring about

what Trump wants him to do. Right, there's nothing nuanced or hedging about his brand of, I'm doing my own thing here. Not in the least, no. And as a result of this, Trump has endorsed an opponent against him and is encouraging big Republican donors to back that opponent. And tell us more about that opponent.

Sure. The man that Trump has hand picked to oppose Thomas Massey is Ed Galloway, a dairy farmer, navy seal, and Trump's stalwart who has pledged to stand alongside Trump and help get his agenda pass. This is a familiar landscape for Massey. Right. He's been through this before. In 2018, Trump wanted Massey taken down and it didn't bear any fruit. But this time, things were a great deal closer, where Massey has comfortably won his primaries

sometimes with 81% of the vote. This time around the polls suggest that the two candidates are dead even. And what's so interesting to me about this primary is that if ever there was a moment where

you've descended too much, it might be Massey in this moment because of the economy we're in with

“the inflation we have and the unpopularity of the war that the president started. Perhaps if ever”

there was a moment for someone to stand up to Trump and actually survive their repercussions, it might be this moment. If, in fact, Galloway does win, then this will suggest among other things that Trump's stranglehold over the Republican party remains pretty much absolute. If, on the other hand, Massey prevails, lives to fight another day, that it may well suggest that at a time when Trump has exerted so much in an effort to take down a candidate, but has failed to

do so, that perhaps Trump's grip is not what it once was and may in turn embolden not just Massey, but others like him to challenge a president who's unfavorable is around the rise. Well, Robert, remind us how Representative Massey came to be so defiant when it comes to Trump

“and why the president finds him to be so intolerable. I think that it's in keeping with”

the brand that Massey has held up from the outset of his political career as this individualist, a confirmed eccentric, a kind of fiscal absolutist person who is for individual rights that he would hold the line on things like no foreign aid and that includes no carve-out exemption for Israel, which almost all the rest of Republicans would find a carve-out form. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so Massey has been viewed really as a sort of darling within certain

elements of the Republican party for being a purist for basically saying what I say, no increase in

spending. I mean, no increase in spending for anybody, including our military, including our allies in the Middle East, such as Israel. He's opposed Trump's intervention in both Venezuela and Iran, saying they betray the idea of America first. And so he's gotten by on that for some time, and he doesn't mind being alone wolf, you know, attempts to sit by himself in the house chamber, you know, it's sort of this off-the-grid cattle farmer who drinks raw milk. And so there is a kind of

pulbonium aspect to him. Right. And of all the ways that Massey, the Maverick, the raw milk drinker,

“decided to go against the president. I think it's safe to say that the one he's going to be best”

known for and the one that is probably the most personally upsetting to President Trump is the way he decided to fight the president on Jeffrey Epstein. That's right. And this has been, I think,

particularly vexing for Trump because he was never wholeheartedly for the release of the Epstein files,

but his electoral base certainly was. Right. And Massey took those desires literally and became the champion of releasing the files. And at a time when Speaker Mike Johnson was being very, very deferential to Trump, if Trump doesn't want them release, that's fine. We'll recess the Congress rather than allow for a vote on the subject. Massey remained insistent began to work with a coalition that included the Democrat, Rokana, as well as a handful of other Republicans

that all happened to be women. And convened hearings held press conferences with some of the women who were survivors of Epstein and it really became the public face of it. Massey's determination

was so great that Trump ultimately had to read the T-Leaves and throw his own reluctant support

behind the legislation and the Epstein file transparency act that in turn forced the Department of Justice to release those files. That was Massey and Rokana's legislation. Trump was against it then he was for it. But that Trump essentially had to declare defeat was a moment that he clearly did not forget nor forgive Massey for. So you go to Kentucky to try to figure out what that version of being a maverick within Donald Trump's Republican Party looks like to Republican primary

voters who are being told by the president to turn out Congressman Massey. That's right. And I did so because it's really difficult to obtain ground truth in any congressional primary from behind one's desk in Washington, D.C. But particularly it's a complicated endeavor here because this is Trump country after all. These are people who really, really love the president. And the idea

from time to time look bad is not generally speaking what voters have in mind. And it's the voters

who now are faced with a choice. Right. Their party leader has said, I want you to vote against

“Massey. I want you to vote for Ed Galerine. And now the question is, how important is that dictate”

from a president they so admire. So as the press is getting set, this is a training for all of us here at Boom County. So about a week before the primary Katelyn O'Keefe and I went to a Massey event in Boom County in the town of Burlington. This is the northern part of the district. We love that Mr. Massey was struggling. It was an extremely well attended event in the courthouse standing or remotely. At least 150 or so, folks there. I'm going to start out by saying,

tell me what I have got done in the last six months of life. And Massey began it with a presentation

of his affirmative version of why a person should vote for him. First of all, I got a bill

passed that has caused Prince Andrew to no longer be a prince. The British ambassador is no one of the ambassador to the United States. And the CEO of the World Economic Forum, that I had to use on because of the Epstein file's transparency. If he very quickly moved into his advocacy of the release of the Epstein files. And he emphasized that while he is a try and trigger republican who has voted with a republican 91% of the time, that those areas in which he has distance himself,

or opposed republican legislative matters, he makes no apologies for. If you're covering matters

with pedophiles, if you are trying to smile on Americans without a warrant, if you are bankrupting

this country, then I'm not voting for that. And so there were a few times I've had this hand up,

“and that's why I'm in a race here where it's the most expensive race in a republican primary”

and a country. It's a most expensive race in the history you can talk for a congressional race. Massey made a point also of talking about his opponent at Gowrine. I respect that my opponent has a military service, but I've seen some congressmen get this wrong when they get elected. They get to talk to D.C. and they ask who do I report to? Do I report to the speaker? Do I report to the president now? He said that the Gowrine is essentially a rubber stamp

for President Trump, and if that's what people want, an unflagging supporter, who will do whatever Trump wants, then fine, but that's not who Massey ever was, or ever will be. Well, when you're in the legislative branch, you don't report to the executive branch. I report to 750,000 of you, I'm a director report to you, here in Kentucky, you are my bosses, and he spoke probably for about 15 minutes or so. And then he immediately opened it up to the audience.

And what kind of a reception does Massey get there? Well, many of the comments and questions came from people who are really adoring of Massey. You know, these were people who were really applauding his principles and are very much in lockstep and appreciative of his independence. The people complain that his new politicians to Washington and their new principal, you stand for your principal's, and that's going to be.

Then came a few audience members who were a little more skeptical. One of them was a woman named Elizabeth Smith. Who said, quite plainly, I'm not sure who to vote for, I support the president, more than any other

“time ever in my life. And I truly believe that President Trump is really working tirelessly”

tirelessly if I didn't hear it. She had supported Massey in the past, but really was an unsorving devotee of President Trump. And people who've been saying on these awful things, and oh, you know, it's a poor Trump, and you don't this, please give me a reason to vote for you this time.

when Trump wants me to vote the other way. She's basically saying, "Help me reconcile a dynamic

“of me liking you and me liking Trump." That's right.”

Massey began his reply by reminding Ms. Smith that President Trump is not on the ballot. "I truly do have respect for his effort and the job he's trying to do. But if I win this rest, I guarantee he will come right back around." And when he defies the president, it isn't for defiance a sake, but instead to uphold the kind of America first principles that Trump himself ran on. But towards the very end of the Q&A session,

another gentleman stood up who represented an all-together different point of view from the ones we'd been hearing. As I see in the big picture, is that all things went on the patient. I ran the economy, politics, and DEI, which is the reason. What person in the whole United States, maybe the world that understands everything, because input to receive is Donald Trump. He gets more information, or he needs more everything. He knows more about all of this

than public, safety, France, where everybody in Congress, anywhere. He does it at all. The man's basic point was the president knows more than you do. So why aren't you deferring

“to this man's obvious superiority in the knowledge and intelligence that he has?”

It's like that's about four or five bills, but you voted no one that were really important to me representing me, and you voted no one, though, is that I was really furious. I didn't get any kidding. He said that, "Look, you turned on Trump. Trump is my guy." I voted for you if you run seven times right. First six times, I vote for you, because I wanted to. Sometimes, because you didn't have anybody parking or you, this time you got somebody running

against you. Yes, that thing. I really don't know a lot about the guy, but Trump has a dorsity, and that means to me that he will help Trump pay us the things that I want done, okay, that you aren't doing. And some of these... This exchange lasted for a full 14 minutes. Wow.

It's amazing. I mean, it was really long, and at times kind of boring, certain people in the

audience got up and left, but Massey stood there very patiently, letting the guy have his say, and occasionally interrupting him, not with his own statements, but with questions, post kind of sequratically, you're aware, aren't you, that I'm the one who got the Epstein files released, and that Trump considered this a borderline act of treason. What do you think he learned about the Epstein Focusing to give a 180 to make sense, Mark,

and then people in this room, that they shouldn't make it. I agree with Postery the Epstein Focusing. I want to release too, but to me, he said I was a hostile act for me to do that. I don't know, but to me, he knows the big picture. There might be things that you don't understand why he said that he's not even revealing to us. Mark said that he had no problem with the release of the files, but seemed to be suggesting that perhaps the president had good

reason for resisting the release of them. There were over 1,000 girls that got molested, raped, drawn into sex trafficking, recruited at 15 years old, recruited other girls to get raped,

so that they wouldn't. They never knew if I have done that, knowing the purpose of what

you did, as if I was a boy I don't think, but I've been against Trump for a set of the one thing he cared about the most. What he was doing in essence was trying to reconcile his basic view that Massey was in the right with his larger faith in Trump, and reconcile in Trump we trust with America first principles.

“I believe if you get there was a reason that he did that he could not tell you or tell the public.”

I don't give it back. I don't give it back. I don't give it back. I don't give it back. I don't give it back. I don't give it back. God, that kind of trust. And by the end of it, I would join this on the TV. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Massey shook the guy's hand and said that he enjoyed it. I wonder, Robert, what you took from this exchange and really from this entire town hall by the time it was over.

Yeah, Michael, what became clear to me is that for his popular, his Thomas Massey has been here in the past and really still is with many people. The split with the president is clearly

president Trump or deciding they aren't going to vote for Massey, they do understand the stakes

of this race, which is you are either with Trump or you are against him and there is no room for independence. What I later learned was that the guy running against Massey, the one who's got Trump's support, he understands that. And in fact, he's Beth's entire campaign on it. We'll do a back. I'm Peter Baker. I'm Chief White House correspondent for the New York Times.

I've covered the president of the United States and I've covered every president since 1996. The pressure on an independent press today feels greater than any time I've seen it in four decades as journalists. All that pressure, though, is just a reminder of why journalism matters.

Our job is to bring home facts, help our readers understand what's happening,

regardless of what the consequences may be to us. And if they punish us so be it, we will still

“go out there and report as honestly and aggressively and fairly and truthfully as we can.”

I mean, if the New York Times were not at the White House asking the hard questions, looking for stories behind the stories, trying to understand what's going on, it's possible these questions don't get asked. Independent reporting requires resources. You can support it by subscribing to the New York Times at nytimes.com/subscribe.

So Robert, you end up spending time with Massey's rival in this race at Gowrine. Tell us about that time. Yes, Caitlin and I, a couple of days after the Massey event, attended at Gowrine event. And it was kind of an odd event. I had to say it wasn't attended by voters, but instead took place in a manufacturing plant. It's stated purpose was to have the U.S. Chamber of Commerce announced its official endorsement

of Gowrine in the presence of a handful of members of the press. Please welcome Ed Gowrine. So the U.S. Chamber guy gave a very quick speech.

“Well, thank you for that. Can y'all hear me back back there? Can you hear me, okay?”

I want to thank you for those kind of remarks, but Gowrine then gave his own 10 or 15 minute talk. And how is he making his case about this candidate's office? I was 26 years old for I left Kentucky to go off to the Navy SEALs as an officer. I want you to hold that thought. I grew up on the largest dairy farm in the state of Kentucky. Anybody out there knowing anything about dairy farm?

The first thing that Gowrine did was introduce himself by saying that he's not a politician, that he is from a multi-generation role farming family, that he won a multitude of broad stars serving his country as a Navy SEAL. And then finally, more recently, was pressed into service again by President Trump. I'm proud to stand with President Trump, the Republican Party, his American first,

and Kentucky always agenda. I added that the President said he liked it.

When I said that, I told y'all, it said, "America first, we took y'all, we thought like that." And right away, it became clear that his support for Trump, and for them had a Trump support for him, is really the message that he's running on. He didn't talk about what committee assignments he would like to have, he didn't talk about America's place in the world, he didn't talk about specific spending bills, or really any legislation at all.

The President Trump needed to conserve this in Congress to deliver for the American people and what they voted for, what? What he talked about was Trump. If I remember, nearly 78 million Americans voted for President Trump.

“One, 31 states, is that right, including the swing states and 312 electoral votes?”

That is significant, that's a message. And then after that, Thomas Massey stood in the way, not just against President Trump, but against the party in America. He described how Massey was the person who was standing in the way of the decision of being passed. "Contecate deserves in America, Congressmen who stand with President

Trump, the Republican Party, and conserved as not against him." And that the fourth district deserved someone who was more in keeping with the man that they had voted for Donald Trump, and that he would be that man. So thank you all for coming here. God bless President Trump, the Republican Party, God bless Kentucky, God bless the United States of America. And I'll take a few questions. Thank you all for coming.

Thank you. And after that, he took about four questions from members of the press.

Freeform, anything goes in counter that we'd had a couple of days earlier.

“And what do you think explains that decision making?”

Well, it's that there's a paradoxical element of his campaign that while Trump desperately wants Massey to be crushed with overwhelming force, this campaign is kind of doing so with a very, very light footprint. And I think also is very careful about saying anything that could possibly offend the President who has endorsed him, which was why when I had an opportunity during the Q&A, you know, I asked him, "You did say a couple of minutes ago that you stand with

President Trump." And Thomas Massey has said that that's 10 amount to you being a yes man, a rubber stamp. Are you going to be Trump's rubber stamp? And I wonder if you could comment on that. If you see yourself as someone who would be unsorveningly with a President or someone who would be independent. And what is he saying? So first of all, I want to give you a scene set. I guess I should have got five broad stars to demonstrate my personal courage and independence

to act on my own. I guess I should have served the three times a Seal Team six instead of two. But they have rules about that and you don't do so. There's no point of importance about that. I'm going to get thanks to other folks I did that. But there's a long way from a dairy farm and they'll all river to Seal Team six. And I'm not talking to you. Beyond describing his resume, he was essentially conflating individual courage with

political independence, which struck me as two different things. The president knows who I am. He knows what I stand for. He knows exactly who he was talking to.

I am no rubber stamp. We'll never have. And said that being a rubber stamp was never who he was

nor who he would ever be. No cerebral, I'll put it by one of with this. I represent these folks here. I'm their servant leader of the president knows that. You can count on it. But I wanted to push on that idea just to learn a little more from the candidate as to really just

“what he'd like to be as a congressman. So I paid him a call. Robert Draper?”

Hey Robert, where you at now? And what exactly did you ask him? What did he say? And were you able to fully resolve this question of whether he was capable of being anything other than a Trump teammate? Yeah, I started in our brief phone interview by asking him the most basic of questions. I'm just curious to know what house committees you'd like to serve on. You're a man of varied

interests. And you could go in a bunch of different directions. So what do you have in mind? What's on your wish list? What house committees would he like to serve on? Great. I'm going to go to Speaker Johnson and the president and JD. I must say where you need me coach. Just like while I played ball at Franklin Simpson, when I played ball at center college, when I played ball at Murray, that is a team sport.

“The governing is a team sport. Now I got my desires. I got places I think I fit.”

But he knows what the whole ball team looks like. Does that make sense? Sure. And the answer that he gave me was whatever the coach says. Speaker Johnson and President Trump would be the ones to make that decision for him and that he would happily abide by it. I mean, to say the obvious, this is quite different than Thomas Massey's vision of Congress,

where independence is essential and the prerogatives of the Congress are to do what individual

members think is necessary regardless of the team they're on, regardless of what the president wants. That's right. Yeah. And I pressed him later on whether he would have done his Massey did on the release of the Epstein files. And he basically said, well, I'm four transparency, but I'm for transparency in a way that doesn't cause any conflict with the president. And I asked him, would you be in favor of the overthrowing the Cuban regime, for example,

and he said, I'm in favor of liberating the Cubans, but in whatever way the president wants to achieve that, I'm fine. So in our brief conversation that no point was there any suggestion that he would assert himself as an individual instead he would be in an abler of whatever the Trump administration had in mind. And look, to be fair, this is the calculation he's making that if he's going to have a shot in this race, he's got to present himself as an alternative

to Massey. And right now, Massey's biggest vulnerability is that he's lost the support of the president and a state where the president is very popular. So Gal Ryan is running as the alternative

to that. And Gal Ryan has an incredible financial war chest supporting him and by supporting him

what I really mean is attacking Massey. You had said earlier that this race remains quite close. And so it's tempting to ponder all the implications of Massey surviving this, all the implications

so far apart. If Massey loses, Trump will have clearly shown that there's no tolerance for opposing him, even when somebody like Massey is taking out positions that are really grounded in what Trump claims his political movement is all about. But even if Massey wins, the message to everyone else in the Republican Party is, do you really want to go through what I just went through in the

name of independence from Trump and the answer is probably no. So either way, I might argue,

“Trump achieves his goal of imposing a very high degree of ideological conformity, right?”

That's right. It's definitely the case. But it also comes with a certain risk, right? I mean, because we've just come out with this poll, the New York Times has showing how on the generic ballot Democrats are up by 10 or something. So to basically, you know, web yourself to Trump is really to be rolling the dice that this fidelity to the president is not going to prove damaging to the entire party. And so, yeah, I mean, Trump has basically sent this message,

which I believe, when or lose by Massey is still going to be present. But meanwhile, a Republican cannot be indebted to this greater electoral message. The storm clouds that are gathering

“is suggesting that when it comes to general elections, it's a deeply problematic thing,”

citing with the president. Right. I mean, if the midterms were held today, according to the New York Times poll that came out of money, the one you just referenced, it's very clear that Republicans would almost certainly lose the house, based on all the factors you just described. They wouldn't lose Massey. Whether it's Massey or Galerine, it's going to be held by a Republican. But nationally, these polls suggest swing districts are going to swing democratic.

And what Trump is saying to every Republican in this very expensive Massey race is do not dare trying to break with me, even if I am steering this car off the midterm cliff. Well, if Trump

understands nothing else, he understands leverage. And he has always shown a willingness to use that

leverage. And that leverage includes no small element of fear. It does send a formidable message that you don't want to tangle with this guy. And we have not seen any president, I think, in modern history, perhaps in the history of American politics, who has such command over his party, even in defiance of public opinion polls that would suggest that people be a little bit wary of that fidelity of the Trump. Well, Robert, thank you very much. My pleasure, Michael.

We'll do it back.

“Here's what else you need to know today. On Monday, a jury rejected Elon Musk's lawsuit”

claiming that OpenAI, the artificial intelligence company he co-founded, had violated its original mission by putting commercial interests over the good of humanity. Dures did not roll on the merits of Musk's argument. Instead, they found that Musk brought his lawsuit against OpenAI and its chief executive, Sam Alman, after the statute of limitations, had expired. And the Trump administration

has created an unusual $1.8 billion fund, overseen by the president's allies to compensate those

who claimed they were politically targeted by the Justice Department under President Biden. Democratic officials called it a taxpayer-financed slush fund that would enrich Trump's supporters, and they predicted it would make payouts to, among others, those convicted of participating in a January 6 riots at the U.S. Capitol. Today's episode was produced by Kailyn O'Keef, Anna Foley, and Olivia Nat, with help from Chris Benderiff.

It was edited by Devon Taylor and Rachel Kruster, and contains music by Pat McCusker, Marion Lezano, and Dan Powell. Our theme music is by Wonderley. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the day. I'm Michael Bobo. See you tomorrow.