Classical Music Is in Crisis. Gustavo Dudamel Is Here to Save It.

We changed articles, and so having read the same article, we can discuss it.

She sent you your long subscription so I have access to all the games. The New York Times contributes to our quality time together. It enriches our relationship. It was such a cool and thoughtful gift. We're reading the same stuff, we're making the same food, we're on the same page.

Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift. At NYTimes.com/gift. Hey, it's Michael. If you are not yet on New York Times subscriber, we have some news for you. You can get full access to the Times without a paywall for 30 days.

“All you have to do is download the New York Times app to get your first month completely free.”

And if you're already a Times subscriber, we'll then thank you.

Okay, here's today's show. From New York Times, I'm Michael Babaro. This is the daily on Sunday. Classical music in the United States has long been in trouble. And the orchestras that perform it have been battling for their survival.

The possibility of reinventing classical music has seemed out of reach, until... Gustavo Duda Mell. Came onto the sea. And took classical music by storm. The word on the street is that this guy is kind of a rocker in the world of conductors.

The it-man of the conducting well, the shaggy-haired prodigy from Venezuela, was become classical music's newest rock star. Now, Duda Mell is bringing his revolution to New York as the new musical director of the city's premier orchestra, opposed he officially begins this week. Today, my colleague, classical music writer Joshua Barroni, on the dawn of the Duda

Mell era, and exactly what's writing on his success. It's Sunday, September 6th. Joshua Barroni, welcome to the Sunday Daily. Thank you. So on the way to work this morning, I passed a poster on the subway with the face of the

man that will be the subject of the episode, Duda Mell. And a few days ago, I opened my mailbox, and I got a big brochure with Duda Mell's unmistakable head of hair on it. This man is kind of everywhere right now in New York, but for listeners who do not live

“in our fair city, let me begin with a very basic question, who is Duda Mell?”

Even for people who don't live in New York, they might be familiar with him, because we're talking about a man who might be the most famous conductor alive today. Gustavo Duda Mell is one of those musicians who transcends classical music as a genre, as an industry, and really is a star in the realm of pop culture. Because this is someone who works a lot outside of the concert hall, he's been in a

troll's movie. He has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, he does, he does, he does, yes. We now declare today, Gustavo Duda Mell Day in Hollywood. And even this old series on Amazon, Mozart in the jungle, the conductor character was inspired by him, Galegra Sabre now, had this wig, "Here the hair."

The slogan for this orchestra was "Here the hair," which was very much inspired by Gersault Duda Mell. "Where am I? Surrounded by this dramatic people all the time!" "Okay, I am very sorry for the mass we heard."

This is someone who has been, whether people realize it or not, seated in the pop culture world, and that was all before his biggest assignment, yet, which is to be the next music and artistic director of the New York Philharmonic.

And this season for the first time in its history, the orchestra will be led by a Latino

music director. This is the oldest orchestra in the country, it has a bit of a dusty reputation in recent years. In New York, that matters, this isn't just the start of a new tenure, it's the start of a new chapter for the Philharmonic.

And so Gustavo Duda Mell is bringing not only his reputation, but his whole ethos, which

“is a mixture of joy, celebrity, and honestly, a celebration of music and its potential to”

this orchestra to revitalize it, and in the process, perhaps if he's successful, this will be challenging, but if he's successful, prove that classical music really has a place in pop culture today.

Talk about the precise state of classical music now, because there's been open-handling

for years about shrinking audiences for the life performance of classical music in the very few times that I have been to here, the New York Philharmonic.

“I have observed the agedness of the crowd, how bad is the situation?”

Yeah, I think you're not wrong to notice an agedness, because I think the last time classical music really held the status of pop culture in America was when a lot of those people were children. And so it's been a half-century at least since this thing really mattered in the culture, but there was a time when it really did.

Starting in the 19th century, a lot of European music that had been imported to the United States was played in homes. It wasn't unusual for people to play Beethoven symphonies at the piano at that night. And then as you enter the 20th century, you have the dawn of recording.

And this was a big time, perhaps the first celebrity conductor, which was Arturo Toscanini.

You are up to here, a concert in Carnegie Hall, New York, conducted by Arturo Toscanini, who founded a symphony orchestra for NBC, so he was on the radio, releasing countless recordings. And this was when people were starting to listen to classical music at home in a really widespread way for the first time.

“And then, in the next generation, another sort of face of classical music emerges, and”

that's Leonard Bernstein, of course, and what Toscanini did for recordings, Leonard Bernstein did for TV. Now, there are so many examples of this melodic technique. I almost don't know where to begin, but let's take, for one example, our good old standby Beethoven's fifth.

Here. One, on your mark. Two, get set. Three, go. He brought classical music to prime time television, also in a time when there were very few channels, so there were few options of what to watch. So imagine, you know, you have three choices of what to do if you're Thursday night. And one of them is to watch Leonard Bernstein, conducted in New York Philharmonic, regardless

of where you are in America. Right, must see TV was Leonard Bernstein, exactly, conducting, exactly, then New York Philharmonic. Yes. He paints the phrase with a slight change, a rising intensity. So this is the heyday, and then there's the loaded.

And there is a reputation that develops where classical music has seen as a leadist.

I, of course, would never claim that that's true.

“I don't, I don't believe it personally, and I think musicians don't believe that either,”

but there is this popular conception that classical music is a leadist. But regardless, over time, classical music, which started, let's say those people who you see in the audience who look older today, those people grew up with the idea that you would subscribe to an orchestra. So you would commit to say every Thursday or Friday night for a whole season of seeing

his orchestra, and that system of ticket buyers just doesn't exist anymore. So by a ticket to maybe one thing, and they might go once a year, once every three years. And some people are intimidated. I mean, there are these rules. You can't talk.

You can't be on your phone. You can't clap between movements of symphony. Right. And let's, extraordinary. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

And so all of all this is that it has become a niche art form. And so what all of that means for the New York Philharmonic, especially in the past half century, is that you had an audience that was not necessarily replenishing itself. The concert hall at Lincoln Center was pretty drab, it didn't have good acoustics, and the conductors who were coming through after Leonard Bernstein just didn't have the charisma

that he had. So you had this sort of old European guy at the podium, a lot of empty seats in this beige room that just did not encourage you to love classical music. And actually in recent years, all of that has been done away with. During the pandemic, the hall was gutted and renovated.

It's much more colorful now. The acoustics are fantastic, they're really crisp. And the last thing they needed to revitalize the orchestra was a new conductor. And that conductor, of course, is Duda Mal. Tell us the story of how he became the man upon whose shoulders, the New York Philharmonic

How did he come to represent all of that?

“So Gustavo Duda Mal is born in Venezuela in 1981, and both of his parents are musicians.”

He doesn't get born into a big city, he's not born in Caracas, but he is born into the system of music education that transformed music in Venezuela and really provided a model for the world that's considered the most successful music education system of the modern era. And that's called Elsie Stama, which on the surface looks a little bit like a pyramid scheme.

Basically, it's that anyone can arrive at the sort of, let's say, community center, pick up an instrument and learn it. And whoever learns it can then become a teacher and open up their own community center.

The idea is that it would then spread, and now we're talking about well over half a million

musicians. Wow, who are part of Elsie Stama, and that is Gustavo Duda Mal.

“My favorite game at home was to arrange my toys like an orchestra and conduct them.”

That for me was the most fun part of the day. When he was still quite young, you know, 11, 12 years older, so he is showing up from one of these sessions with his fellow musicians, people from around town, and the conductor is late. I was there, the conductor did an arrive.

And so as a bit of a joke, he gets up on the podium and he starts waving around and conducting his students.

I start as a game with the orchestra to conduct them.

And the thing is, his teacher did arrive in the middle of all that and just stayed back and watched him. And very cinematic. You were exactly exactly. And suddenly, everything became seduce.

“But seduce in the most funny way, because for me, still, he's like a game.”

He's totally unliked, qualified to be conducting. Yes, I mean, usually people come into conducting at a much later age, but Gustavo, like every child, his idea of conducting is you wave your arms. And if he's lucky, he has a sense of how to conduct a beat, which is actually a very specific sort of choreography in conducting.

But two people realize things in this moment, Gustavo Deudemau realizes he really likes what's happening. He likes this exchange of energy between him and his fellow musicians. And his teacher realizes that this kid has got a gift that's showing itself immediately. So eventually Gustavo gets the attention of the founder of Elsie Stamma, Jose Antonio

Abria, who takes him under his wing, teaches him conducting at this point Gustavo had been a violinist, and by the time he's 18, he is given the Simone Bolivar Youth Orchestra, which has since changed its name, but this was the sort of face of Elsie Stamma. The best of the best were put in this orchestra in Deudemau at 18 was given the baton. I mean, that is Mozartian, to be conducting a symphony.

And we're talking about a period of, you know, five, six years between him picking up a baton and taking over a national orchestra. Very impressive. And then from there, the successes came very quickly. In 2004, there's this new conducting competition called the Gustavo Moller International

Conducting Competition, and it's for young conductors, and young in the conducting world means under 35. But at this point, he's in his early 20s and he enters the competition, conducting Moller's fifth symphony, which is something that people well into their 70s struggle with conducting persuasively. Why is it so hard to conduct?

Yeah, I mean, just look at the fourth movement, which is this very famous movement called the Aduciado, it's been used in a lot of films, it's very romantic, it's lush, and it has just sort of a single flowing, lyrical expression. That's actually very hard to pull off in music, because if you think about that, I can say I love you for 10 minutes, which this piece of music does.

But to maintain a sense of, say, tension, of sincerity, of honestly discipline throughout

This is sort of the heart of what differentiates a competent music performance from a great one.

“And despite all of that, at 23, he is able to persuade all these judges, the musicians”

on stage and the people in the audience that he is better at conducting this music than anyone else there.

And he wins it, he wins the first competition, but crucially, at this competition, one

of the judges is a very famous conductor named Esapeka Salomon, who at that point was the music director of the LA Philharmonics and was looking to move on. So he gets on the phone while he's still there at this competition, and he calls the president that orchestra and says you've got to hear this guy. And then due to Mel gets booked, he conducts at the Hollywood Bowl, which is a massive amphitheater

that the LA Phil performs at every summer. And before you know it, he has a job in the US, and he is the new music director of the LA Philharmonics class.

For the second time in what must be either a stroke of luck or just a genuine measure of

“his talent, two very important figures are in a room with him and say you're the one.”

You're the one, exactly. And once he arrives in LA, he really takes the town by storm. We have the pleasure of watching a new chapter unfold. The evolution of Gustavo Duda Mel from young phenomenon to mature music director and interpreter, ever deeper and wider in the repertoire.

It is a good time to be a music lover and Los Angeles and in the world. He transforms the orchestra's reputation and its footprint in the city, and he really

truly becomes the superstar conductor he is today.

All right. Well, we're going to take a big break and when we come back, we're going to talk about how Duda Mel did all of that in Los Angeles, we'll be back. Hi, I'm Brian Chan, I'm a tech columnist for the New York Times, instead of just regurgitating the marketing brochures of a tech company.

I ask questions like, should I be buying a new phone or should I be replacing my battery?

“If that's really all you need to do to have a good experience again, I'm going to tell”

you to replace the battery. I am trying to protect you and prevent you from making a wasteful decision. A lot of companies don't like it when I say things like that, I'll get phone calls from tech companies who want me to change my stories, but because subscribers fund in New York Times, I'm able to be fearless in bringing you this information.

I don't mind having some of these tough conversations. My goal is to serve our subscribers, not the tech companies, that is a huge part of what you get when you subscribe to the New York Times. And Josh, when do you do the Miller Rives in LA? How is it that he becomes this rock star there in the city of Angels?

So he arrives incredibly ambitious and the great thing is he arrives at an orchestra that's willing to match his ambition with a lot of money. The LA Philharmonic is one of the wealthiest orchestras in the country. The musicians are happy and well-paid. The orchestra makes money from both its fancy, frank, Gary concert hall as well as the Hollywood

Bowl where they book Pop-Ax and because of this, due to Mel who is at heart a populist is able to spread his message far and wide throughout the city. So a big part of that is that he wants to replicate L.C. Stema in Los Angeles by providing music education for young, often under-privileged kids. And so he found the youth orchestra of Los Angeles better known as Yola and he has that

based in Inglewood far from downtown where the frank area concert hall is. But it also has outreach throughout the city and he's able to develop that cultivate a sort of music culture and he's able to be in neighborhoods in a way that other conductors might not be able to because he's also a Spanish speaker and an immigrant. And he really gets the people on his side early on.

So right away, he seeks to and it sounds like succeeds in establishing himself as the people's conductors in LA.

At the same time, he is an LA which is the land of Hollywood and that is a reality that anyone

“who is going to be a luminary of Los Angeles, but more importantly, a fundraiser in Los”

Angeles. They need to ingratiate themselves in the Hollywood community. And this is something Dutemell does quite naturally. In fact, over the years when he's in Los Angeles, he books a lot of celebrities for concerts, which is something you don't see how does that work.

For example, last season, he did a performance of Beethoven's Music for Eggmont, which was this play from Beethoven's lifetime that isn't really performed, but Beethoven wrote incidental music for it. And he wanted a sort of narration throughout the entire thing. So he had Kate Blanchett do it.

He recently had a program with Anthony Hopkins around music and Dutemell makes himself available for Hollywood soundtracks. And so if he gets the orchestra in the studio, he's performing music by the likes of John Williams, the famous cinematic composer of works for Star Wars. And St. Louis, his work is indelible.

When it comes to symphonic, movie music, it's John Williams or no one else. He is the guy and Dutemell becomes a friend of his.

Basically, he is turning the Los Angeles Philharmonic into an orchestra that's not too good

“or too self-important to be above Hollywood.”

Right. Which makes a lot of sense because Hollywood produces movies that are watched globally by tens of millions of people. And it's not unusual to see celebrities in the audience at Disney Hall. OK, so Dutemell is achieving populism.

He is flirting with celebrity, what else? He's really making a case for classical music as a vital art form. He is sort of flattening music as a culture of saying there isn't high art and low art.

He's saying all of these things are the same thing.

We are here to hear in orchestra play music. That can be with a pop star that can be with the violinist. It doesn't really matter, it's all the same and it's all there for your enjoyment. So he's really sort of offering this to the people. And at the same time, he clearly wants to and becomes a champion of new music, new

symphonic music. So he works with John Adams, for example, who is the greatest symphonic composer of live in America. He discovers, if you will, or puts on the map, a composer like Gabriel Ortiz, who's good for LA because she's from Mexico City and she has a really exciting sound.

And he is able to use his celebrity platform to elevate her and when the LA Philharmonic turned 100 in 2018-19, they commissioned 15 new pieces and he was there conducting a lot of them. That's extraordinary. So he's very much ensuring the future of this genre by commissioning all this work.

But what about what many people would probably see as the main reason for him getting this job, the main event, the entrée of the meal, which is him standing there conducting the classics, the canon. People buy ticket for Beethoven. What is regardless of everything we're saying?

Yeah. So this is where Du Damelle distinguished himself early on when he was still in Venezuela, when he was conducting in Europe, and what he shows to people in Los Angeles and as he continues to rise, he's just extremely lively. There's a kind of choreography to conducting that's really mysterious and that's the reason

why not everyone is able to do it. I mean, people think that a conductor is there to tell people, this is beat one, beat two, beat three, et cetera, but that's really anyone can do that quite easily.

“But Du Damelle does really well is I think he embodies scores.”

He embodies music in a way that he's able to channel very specific moments across an orchestra to say the percussion in the back or the French horn or something, and he is able to anticipate moments in the music that he wants the orchestra to play, and he's able to redirect them.

That is how you get a good sound out of an orchestra, but there's another element to this,

“which is how you get an audience to follow along, because when you go to an orchestra”

concert, you are buying a ticket to sit in a chair and watch people sit in chairs and absorb a sound, and I'm not saying that he's a ham, he's not up there flailing on the podium, but he in the same way that he subtly communicates with every musician on stage, he does the same thing with the audience. And so if you're watching him from the front, you might be able to read his face, you might

be able to see a bit of excitement and anticipation, if you're seeing him from behind, you might see a little bit of a looseness in his body as he communicates that moment to the orchestra. And if you're seeing a moment of absolute excitement, he is matching that in his body, which makes him actually very exciting to watch. Do you want to move your body? I'm just swinging my push around in the seat, yes.

You know, it's interesting, the role of a conductor has always been to me, and I suspect

to many a little bit mysterious, right? The old joke is that it's basically air guitar. And let's be honest, due to Mel, as a very young conductor does go up and kind of fake it. In front of his classmates, peers, and it kind of works. And I'm being a little bit teasing. But from what you're saying, no, there is a real art and kind of magic to what he's up to. I guess my question for you, because you were many hats at the times, one of them as critic is

“is what he's doing technically speaking good, or is it just extremely lively?”

I think it's extremely lively and technically uneven. So we've been describing a lot of things like art, magic, energy, but music is also a craft. And it is a lot of rehearsal time, it's a lot of practice, it's a lot of discipline, really. And this is where I think Gustavo Du Domino struggles the most, because especially in the classics, pieces that people have in their heads and know very well, you can hear the ways in which he keeps

you interested, he keeps you excited, but maybe misses some of the details, some of the nuances of the score. I sometimes think of him, you know Mickey Mouse and the Sorcerer is a apprentice, like sort of at the cliff sculpting big waves. And less someone who's interested in the fine details of what every instrument in your orchestra is playing. But I guess the counter argument to that would be that it's a very small and specific

group of people in an audience who are listening for that level of technical fidelity, you can just say me. No, I think that's a really smart observation, actually. And I think it's why, although I have

reservations about Du Domino's conducting, I see him ultimately as a force for good in music.

“And I think it's important to note that he's getting better as a conductor. He actually”

has recorded a few of the Beethoven symphonies twice, once in the mid 2000s and once in 2017. And you can really hear, even if you're not a musician or trained ear, you can hear the difference. All right, well, I will bite. Let's play the older Du Domino and the newer. Yes, this is the opening of Beethoven's fifth symphony. People recognize at the moment they hear it. Okay, we'll start with the older version. Okay, now let's play Du Domino years later. Okay, I can hear a difference, but yours are the

trained ear. So tell me what I'm hearing. Let's start with the old one again. This you can almost hear as a young person's idea of what this symphony should sound like. It's big, it's dramatic, but it's also rushing a little bit. It's pummeling this theme. Okay, so now let's hear the newer one one more time.

Right. This is Beethoven being allowed to breathe. Let's go on to the next bit first with the earlier version.

You can hear it's still pretty dramatic, but also a little undisciplined, especially in the violins that they almost slur their way through these phrases. I can hear that. Now let's play the newer version of that same moment. We'll pause. I'm going to have a thought. Okay. I know I should be letting you describe this, but I'm even noticing that the violins, they're more consistent. They feel a bit crisper. I don't quite

have the right words for this, but there is something different. Exactly. This is the same orchestra

across years, of course, but this is the same orchestra that he's working with. And as you're

describing, the violins are so much more articulate here. And as I was saying earlier, there's a lot more patience. In fact, over the course of the entire movement, it's about a minute longer than that earlier recording. And you're not just racing to the next kind of volcano, exactly a mountain moment.

“And I think conversely more tension in that, I think this is ultimately a recording that has”

more conviction, more confidence, even though he was a course-very confident in his mid-20s, you can hear someone who has like maybe a touch of wisdom. I don't want to read his mind, but you can hear someone who trusts the music a little bit more this time. That's fascinating. And I think that growth combined with everything that we've been talking about is part of why he's been such a huge success in LA. Okay, well, we are going to take one more break.

And afterward, try to understand why someone who was such an astonishing success in LA would risk trying to replicate that success in New York. Okay, back. [Music] So Josh, we just heard about all the ways "Dudemell" succeeded in LA. And we integrated classical music there.

And now we're going to turn to the whole reason why we're talking about "Dudemell" in the first place,

which is that in the coming days, he is going to be taking over as the conductor of the New York Philharmonic, where Leonard Bernstein once stood. And I'm wondering how did the New York Philharmonic

“get "Dudemell" to come here? What was their pitch to him? So do you remember when I mentioned”

that conducting competition in the president on the phone, who immediately booked him in LA, fast forward, let's say 15 years, and she is now the president of the New York Philharmonic course she is. And she is overseeing this glamorous renovation of the hall that's going to fix its acoustics, fix its sort of unfriendly appearance, and the last thing, the sort of capstone or the president's seat, will be a conductor. And so she described her according of "Dudemell"

as a heat-seeking missile. She did not see any other possibility other than "Dudemell." But the challenge is that this guy had a pretty good gig in Los Angeles. So in order to tell you what they have for any Hopkins. Exactly exactly, who wouldn't want to hang out with Hannibal Leather and so she spends multiple years trying to talk him into taking this job and making promises

“and it's all done in secret because "Dudemell" for optics doesn't want to be seen as, you know,”

shopping around and he wasn't shopping around. But she was following him to different locations around the world. And she would find ways to sort of not be seen entering his hotels so they could meet. There was a time when she gave him a tour of the new hall while it was under construction. And they almost got away with it, but they bumped into Lin-Man-Welmore and outside. She wanted to know what they were doing there. And so there's this multi-year

courting process. Well, eventually she talks him into it, making promises of not necessarily replicating Yola, the Yurthark Australia. In New York, but doing something similar, saying he can have whatever community programs he wants. He can have something similar to the Hollywood bowl of a summer season somewhere in the tri-state area. He has this new hall, which is very similar to entering LA and having Disney hall. Right. And so there are parallels. And there's the fact that

he had been in LA for like 15 years at that point and might be ready for, it might be ready for

assured to him millions as compensation. What is the response? Once he says yes from the musicians

“in the New York Philharmonic. So I was actually on the stage of David Giffin Hall when the musicians”

learned that what was I happen to be there in the room when the orchestra learned, they were just wrapping up a rehearsal and actually they were wrapping up a rehearsal with Especa Saladin who's the conductor who discovered him. It's all cosmic. And at the very end, this president, her name is Deborah Borda, gets on stage and tells the musicians that she has news. And a few of them sort of slouch their nervous, they're worried at something bad. Right. I'm cutting for it. Exactly. And then she

just says very calmly our next music director is going to be Gustavo Duda Mal and they immediately cheer. Wow. It's the reaction that you would expect of fans, not colleagues. It's as if you have poached Jalen Brunson from the next to your team. It's as if you have persuaded Steven Spielberg to direct your next movie. You're saying everyone in that room suddenly feels like their future is quite bright. Right. And I would say freshly energized. Hmm. Well, given the Philharmonics less than

perfect reputation in this moment, I have to imagine everyone understands including the players in it that Duda Mal has his work cut out for him. So what does he start to do right away to signal how he's going

“to try to revive the Philharmonic. So I think in this moment, I need to tell you how classical music”

works scheduling wise, which is quite funny. So Duda Mal has hired in 2023 and he doesn't start until September, 2026, which is a long lead time. Everything in classical music tomorrow means five years from now. And so Gustavo Duda Mal has a lot of time to prepare for this job, but he also has a lot of impatience. So what happens is before he even has the job officially, he starts programming these wild concerts that the Philharmonic would not have done and have not done ever. So for example,

he took the Philharmonic to radio city music hall for the first time ever last season. And other place

he goes to is the United Palace Theatre in Washington Heights. And this is not a concert hall by any means, but he does as he takes musicians from the New York Philharmonic and pairs them with the Spanish

“Harlem Orchestra. And does music that is really exciting and sophisticated but never on the stage of the”

New York Philharmonic. And so before he even arrives, he is signaling to New York, this is not going to be businesses usual. Once again, there will be a kind of populism. Exactly. To this. And now that he's actually arriving, he's laid out his opening concerts. And he has somehow accomplishing seven different programs. So seven different types of concerts in three weeks in September. And part of what makes him so distinct is because the venues will be distinct. So he is returning to radio city on September 10th

for his first concert. But again, you're not really going to hear Beethoven there. He's going to have

Lizzo on stage with him. It's going to be hosted by Lee of Schreiber. And the next afternoon, he's going to be at the World Trade Center on September 11th at the Pearlman Arts Center to present a 25th anniversary 9/11 concert, which is of course a very different mood. But even then, he's incorporating musicians from the military band, and putting himself and the Philharmonic very much at the heart and the soul of New York City at this 25th anniversary of this trauma.

And then a few days later, he'll take them back to a place they know well, which is Lincoln Center. So he is opening this program with a piece by John Adams, the California composer.

Right. Champion there. He has a world premiere, which is very due to Mel. And then in the second half,

he'll conduct a symphony from the classical canon that people will be familiar with. And so outside the box is the message. Exitably outside the box of Lincoln Center for the first concert, and even within the box of Lincoln Center, something unexpected. Right. And I just described the first week. Like this is, he is quite literally just getting started. And it's interesting because a lot of

conductors have come through the New York Philharmonic with a lot of ambition, with things that they want to conduct, or if they want to be champions of contemporary music, and they just haven't had success. And already, they have this leader whom they respect a lot, whom they like a lot, and whom they're willing to do a lot of new things for. And let's see where that goes.

and you will know that this experiment of due to Mel and the New York Philharmonic is working?

“And if this man can really not just do what he did in LA in New York,”

but deliver on this larger promise that really wherever he goes, classical music is remade. I think there will be two things to look out for. One will be if you go to a New York Philharmonic concert, and you start to see less gray hair. Because in LA, the age range is pretty wide at all of his concerts. And his concerts in New York have already sold out, really, as a norm, if you see the same kind of audience diversity in New York, that will be a huge success.

Because that will, I wouldn't say, solve this generational crisis of classical music, but it would bridge it exactly. And another will be, if you just start to see the Philharmonic,

“more period. Because I think, I remember a time when you really wouldn't see New York Philharmonic”

ads outside of Lincoln Center. There might be banners on the street, things like that. Right now, I can't ride the subway without seeing Gustavo Duda. And I realize that's a marketing push, and that's their job to promote him as he arrives. But I will also say that in Los Angeles,

that never ended. And the question is, away from Hollywood, then can he take this

local success and make it big again? Can he make the New York Philharmonic an orchestra that you might see on prime time? He already took one step for that. The New York Philharmonic musicians were on the field at the World Cup this summer. They were sharing the stage with methods, but they were there. Right. And a lot of cameras were there, and a lot of eyeballs were there. So the project of making this transcendent is already underway. Yeah. And I think, frankly,

classical music people might scoff at someone playing with muppets or being in a troll's movie, but this isn't so different from what Leonard Bernstein was doing in this heyday of classical music pop culture. He's presenting classical music to the whole country, but he was also talking about it. He was saying, you know, when you hear this thing, it means this. And he was cultivating a kind of

“literacy, but also normalcy of music. And that's why even though he might not be the most”

perfect conductor, and there are plenty of talented conductors out there to fill that gap,

I think Gustavo Dutamol is ultimately, and I keep saying this, but it's true. I think he really is

a force for good in music, and there is no downside to that. I do have one last question. Is there a piece conducted by Dutamol that we should end this episode on? At the risk of making yet another connection to Leonard Bernstein, I think it would be delight to listen to Dutamol conduct west side story. Well, Josh, thank you so much for being here today. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. See you at Lincoln Center. See you there.

Today's episode was produced by Tina Antelene. It was edited by Wendy Dore, fact check by Alex Baron, engineer by Sofeo Lamman, and contains music by Dan Powell. That's it for the Sunday Daily. I'm Mike Babaro, see you on Tuesday after the holiday. This week's episode of The Wirecutta Show is for the bidet curious. There is clearly a bidet for every budget. You can get a cold water model for maybe $25, or you could get something like

the Toto Nio rest, and there's one of those models that costs $25,000, $25,000. Is it time to upgrade your bathroom situation? Find out on the Wirecutta Show in the near Times App, or wherever you like to listen.