Epstein Blunders and Tossed Indictments: The Downfall of Pam Bondi

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Okay, here's today's show. From New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is the day we. Today, how Pam Bondi went from being the loyal attorney general of President Trump's dreams to a blundering figure whom he abruptly fired on Thursday afternoon.

I turned to the journalist who broke the story, the Bondi was about to be ousted. White House reporter, Tyler Pager. It's Friday, April 3rd. Well Tyler, here we go again. Another one.

It's the dust.

Yes, a second cabinet member fired by President Trump in four weeks.

“And arguably, this firing ends the career of a cabinet member who is even more important”

to the president than the last one, Kristi Nome, head of Homeland Security, because this is the attorney general. And this attorney general, until the very end, strikes me as a very paradoxical figure, because she is simultaneously as absolutely loyal of a soldier as you could fathom and yet somebody who keeps letting the president down.

You're absolutely right, Michael, Pam Bondi was executing on a wide-ranging agenda that the president outlined when he ran for president for a third time. He wanted to lead a retribution campaign against his political opponents and much of that depended on having an attorney general willing to shatter decades-long norms about how a Justice Department operates, which traditionally is independent from the White House.

In no way, shape or form did Pam Bondi even try to be independent. She bragged about how much she worked at the directive of Donald Trump, but even that wasn't enough for him. And on top of that, she created a political crisis of her own making in her handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files.

Right. And we will get to the Epstein files for sure. I want to though, keep digging into the specifics of Bondi's loyal service to Trump and what she gave the president within the DOJ, because it was a lot. Yeah, I mean, Michael, a good place to start is in March of 2025 at the Justice Department

headquarters. Welcome to the Department of Justice. She invited the president to come speak and before he speaks, Pam Bondi gives a speech. And we all work for the greatest president in the history of our country. And what she says is that she is working for the greatest president in the history of

our country. And we are so proud to work at the directive of Donald Trump that she works at the directive of Donald Trump. Now, that is unprecedented. In previous administrations, attorneys general would try to not even appear at certain White

House events, because they didn't want to seem too close or cozy with the president and his allies. Pam Bondi is taking it in the exact opposite direction, touting how much he takes direction from Donald Trump.

He will never stop fighting for us.

And we will never stop fighting for him and for our country.

to do.

He oversees a wide-scale purging of justice department prosecutors and FBI agents who worked

on cases investigating Donald Trump when he was out of office. And we should just say those FBI agents, those DOJ lawyers, they didn't necessarily seek to be on those cases. They were assigned to investigate Trump by their bosses. And suddenly, Pam Bondi is saying, "Doing your job," and upsetting the president means

that you are now out of a job. Right, she's immediately making clear that there is a loyalty test for anyone who works in the sprawling department of justice and FBI.

“And that, I think, is the blueprint for which she carried out her job.”

And then we saw the Department of Justice under Pam Bondi's leadership launch investigations into some of Trump's long-standing political opponents, Adam Schiff, the Senator from California, Jerome Powell, the Fred Reserve Chairman, who he wants to lower interest rates. We saw them try to secure indictments of James Komi, the former FBI director, the Tisha James, the New York Attorney General, and they even tried to indict six members of Congress

for the alleged crime of telling military officials they should not follow illegal orders. And many of these cases and investigations have collapsed or not move forward for various reasons mostly because there was not enough evidence to indict or to move forward. Right. Because we're so thin or legally dubious that they essentially collapse, right?

So Michael, she ultimately gets herself in a trap in which she makes it harder for her

to carry out the president's directives of politically motivated prosecutions because she's

“making it so clear publicly that she's doing so, that many judges and juries are just”

flat out rejecting any efforts to carry those cases or investigations forward. Right. And by making the mission of the Department of Justice under her, so narrow, I will go after your enemy's Mr. President, Bondi doesn't really leave herself much room for success because she knows at the end of the day that these aren't especially strong cases.

And even as she is devoting so many resources to investigating Donald Trump's political opponents, it's still not enough for him. He is complaining to AIDS and allies that she's moving too slowly. And we even saw some of this criticism spill out into the public when Donald Trump posted

on true social a message addressed to his attorney general, basically, castigating her

for not getting enough results and not prosecuting individuals that he thought were guilty of crimes.

“And so it's just this self-fulfilling cycle of her trying to prosecute more people, launch”

more investigations, fulfill his wide-ranging retribution promises and finding roadblocks after roadblocks because of the way our justice system in the country works. Right. So she's in some trouble here and her loyalty is not solving the problem. And Michael, as if that wasn't enough, there's a huge other scandal swirling with her

right at the center of it. And that, of course, is the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Very early on, she commits this enormous self-inflicted wound. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Well, that really happened.

By going on Fox News and announcing it's sitting on my desk right now to review that's been a directive by President Trump I'm reviewing. Jeffrey Epstein's client list is sitting on her desk ready for her review. And then the next day. So this morning, I was at the White House meeting with President Trump and Vice President

JD Vance and Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI director, Cash Patel. And they presented us with, let me show you. She joins a meeting of conservative influencers at the White House. And they presented us with this binder. And gives them a binder.

It says in the front, the Epstein files phase one by order of Attorney General Pamela Bondi and FBI director, Cash Patel. Label of Epstein files that they walk out of the White House waving for the cameras. It's a lot. And a lot of this has already been seen before.

But very quickly, they become disenchanted with this release. Don't sit there and tell me there's nothing when you told me there was something. That's the issue for the A.G. Knowing that they haven't actually learned anything new from it.

show, making big promises and not delivering.

“And this causes more agita within the conservative base and on Capitol Hill.”

And ultimately leads to Republicans and Democrats joining together through legislation

to force the Department of Justice to release all of the Epstein files. This is a problem for President Trump politically indeed. And it's also Michael, one of the first times Republicans on Capitol Hill really stand up to the president and disobey his demands to not support this legislation. And what's so striking about what Bondi did with those self-inflicted wounds is that

she didn't have to do it. The president wasn't asking her to do it. It wasn't likely indictments. This was something she kind of did on her own initiative and it really, really backfired spectacularly.

Right. And Michael this entire episode around Epstein has really put Pembondi in the hot seat. So much so that Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of Staff, and a long time ally of Pembondi from their time in Florida, told Vanity Fair in an interview that Bondi completely whiffed in her handling of the Epstein files.

And the pressure never relented from Capitol Hill and culminated in a hearing a few weeks

ago where lawmakers from both parties grilled her on her handling of the investigation and overall Michael, it did not go very well for Pembondi. I'm Emily Badger, I'm a reporter with the New York Times. Since the pandemic, empty office buildings have become much more common in many cities, why can't we just turn them into housing? It's actually a really complicated question.

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So Tyler remind us about this congressional hearing, in which things go from not so good already for Pembondi to worse. Thank you, Chairman Jordan, ranking member Raskin and distinguished members of this committee. In this hearing, it's on full display how much animosity there is toward her in her handling of this investigation.

“How many of Epstein's co-conspirators have you indicted?”

How many perpetrators are you even investigating? She's getting blasted by Democrats. I find out. How many have you indicted? It's used me.

I'm going to answer the question. I answer my question. No, I'm going to answer the question away. I want to answer the question. Oh, you can answer the question away.

Chairman Jordan, I'm not going to get in the gutter with these people, but I'm going to answer the question. How many of you indicted? You can let her feel the bus draw day long, but not on the hour watch. Not on our time.

No way. And I told you about that attorney general before you started. You don't tell me. No, I didn't tell you because we saw what you did in the Senate. Not even a lawyer.

Maybe we'll be in order. As Trump has trained his officials, she gives no inch. You know, why? Because Donald Trump, the Dow, the Dow right now, is over. The Dow is over 50,000.

I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader. As I hear, Raskin, the Dow is-- She talks about the Dow being at 5,000, which quickly becomes an internet meme, because it's unrelated to her job, has a attorney general, and definitely unrelated to the

Epstein investigation. Totally. She offered few detailed answers. She had no admission of fault. You apologize to the survivors in your opening statement for what they went through

with the hands of Jeffrey Epstein. Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your department of justice has put them

Congresswoman, Merritt Garland, set in this chair, twice.

Attorney General Bonneau, I can come and finish my answer. And even refuses a request to turn around and apologize to survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, who are in the hearing room, and then as the hearing goes on. The gentleman from Kentucky is recognized. It's becoming increasingly clear that Republicans, too, are really pressing her to my right

as an email that was sent by the victim's lawyers to the DOJ. It was a list of names not to release. What did the DOJ do with this email? They released this email in the document production.

“Literally the worst thing you could do to the survivors.”

You did.

And I think what it illustrates is just how much the Epstein issue and the outrage around

it is a bipartisan one. And with that we're going to stand in recess, we will go as quickly as we can and vote. We have two quick votes on the floor, and we will go back without objection, we stand in recess. Right.

I actually ended up watching that hearing and I was struck by how many pretty demonstrably partisan Republicans just did not seem eager to lend her a helping hand. Yeah. And then last month, five Republicans on that very committee blindsided their own leadership and Pambandi joining Democrats to vote to subpoena her to testify under oath behind closed

doors about the Epstein case. Right.

“And just to say the obvious, if you're president Trump and you know your own party controls”

Congress, having that Congress subpoena your attorney general and have them forced to testify under oath about a scandal swirling around your presidency, Jeffrey Epstein, his emails in which Trump himself has named a lot. That is not ideal. Definitely not.

And all of this just continues to reinforce doubts in the president's mind about whether Pambandi is the right person to continue to serve in this job. And on Monday, I got a tip that the president was on the verge of firing her. So the last several days reporting that out, eventually getting enough sources to feel confident that the president was discussing making that move.

And the biggest tell that this was imminent was on Wednesday when I reached out to the White House for formal comment.

“Our story was going to publish to say the president had discussed firing Pambandi and”

the comment they gave me was directly from President Trump. Not Caroline Levitt, the White House Press Secretary, or someone else in the communication shop. It was from the president directly and this is what it said. "A attorney general, Pambandi is a wonderful person and she is doing a good job."

Translate that in Trumpology. Trump is somebody who uses a lot of adjectives saying his attorney general is doing a good job is the biggest tell that he is not satisfied with her job performance. I mean, this really makes me wonder how you guys do your job because even the word "good" doesn't really mean good in this administration.

Trump is an expressive politician and it's rare to see a statement without all caps, exclamation points. You can tell how Trump feels about something based on the language he's using and this was an obvious one for us.

Right in this case, good basically meant your days are numbered.

I'm curious if you're reporting Tyler suggests that there was any kind of a final straw here or just a logical culmination of all of the things that you have been laying out here. Bondi's inability to put the president's enemies in jail. Her blunders around Epstein and ultimately her failure to be the kind of communicator perhaps that he needs in the role of attorney general.

Michael, my understanding based on the reporting we have at this point is that there was not one final thing, but rather as you just laid out the culmination of many things. And over the last several weeks and months, many of Trump's allies and aides were whispering in his ear, encouraging him, prodding him to pull the plug, arguing there were people better positioned to accomplish his agenda at the Department of Justice.

Well, let's talk about who those people might be and who we think is likely to be the next attorney general for Trump. So the search is ongoing, but for the time being, the president has announced that Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general will serve as acting attorney general.

Blanche, before he joined the administration, was the president's personal lawyer and represented

him in multiple criminal trials, including sitting with him at the New York trial over the hush money payment to a porn star. And so he deeply understands the president's desire for revenge

“and he's been a key part of the effort to run this retribution campaign from the Justice Department”

since day one. So he is in theory a logical candidate for the job, but he hasn't been nominated and we don't know exactly who will be. Right, we reported before Pam Bondi was fired that Trump had been interested in elevating Lee Zeldin, the administrator of the EPA for the job, but it's telling that Trump has not announced a permanent replacement. When he fired Kristi Known, he was teed up with Mark Wayne Mullen,

the senator. This time he's clearly still thinking about who he wants as her replacement. Well, whoever ends up getting nominated, I wonder what you think the lesson of Pam Bondi, the very painful lesson of Pam Bondi will be for the next Attorney General. I mean, they are going to face the same challenge, which is Trump hasn't enormous appetite for retribution and many of the people he wants to see and die to it or the cases he wants to see

brought, the evidence just isn't there and judges and juries are not coming along. So even as the president puts in someone new, they're going to face the enormous task of satisfying him in ways that are sometimes beyond their control. Right. And that sense, the Attorney General

“of Trump term, too, is in a lot of ways set up to fail. That's how it seems.”

Well, Tyler, thank you very much, we appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me, Michael. We'll do it back.

Here's what else you need to know today. Growing frustration from American allies over President

Trump's approach to Iran, boiled over on Thursday, when French President Emmanuel Macron lashed out at Trump, when he was at Syria, he said, "The contrary of what we say to him, "and he didn't talk about it all the time." Speaking to reporters, Macron mocked Trump for seemingly contradicting himself on his goals for the war on a daily basis and suggested that one solution was for Trump to simply talk less about the war. Meanwhile, in the latest

headache for President Trump, Iran signaled that it intends to keep overseeing shipping

“traffic through the crucial stray of her moves, even after the war ends. The United States”

insists that Iran has no legal right to do so. Finally, as the war rages on, US defense secretary

Pete Hegsev has fired the army's highest ranking official, four-star general Randy George, over a variety of disagreements. One of them was Hegsev's unusual decision to block the promotion of four army officials, a move that General George strongly opposed. To these episode was produced by Nina Feldman and Katelyn O'Keefe. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Maria Burke, contains music by Alicia Baitu, Dan Powell, and Mary Elizano.

Our theme music is by Wonderland. This episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. The daily's engineering team is Alyssa Moxley, Chris Wood, Maddie Messiello, Nick Pippman, Kyle Grandillo, and a female superhero. Our radio team is Jodie Becker, Roney Misto, Diane Wong, and Katherine Anderson. Alexander Lee Young is our deputy executive producer. Michael Benoit is our deputy editor. Paige Coward is the editor of the daily. Ben Kauhan is our executive

producer. Special thanks to Paul Asumen, Larissa Anderson, Sam Dolnik, and to the founding editor of the daily, Lisa Tobin. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael Barrow. See you on Sunday.