The Good, the Bad and the Good-Bad (Movie)

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The film Practical Magic 2 opened in theaters this week.

Here's the thing about magic.

It won't be silenced. If you weren't familiar with Practical Magic 1, it came out in 1998. Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman play sisters dealing with a pretty inconvenient generational curse that kills any man they fall in love with. And what the curse wasn't it? He died because I loved him so much.

Also, by the way, there witches.

“In Practical Magic 2, we learn that Sandra Bullock's character has passed the curse onto her daughters, who are also witches.”

Where rich is it in the curse's room? I won't ever do it again. The release of Practical Magic 2 has prompted a lot of conversation here at the Daily about a particular kind of movie. Not a good movie, not a bad movie, but movies that are good bad. Because for a lot of movie lovers, the movies that we love the most, they're not necessarily the movies we think are the best.

What to you is like a movie that you really love, even though you know that it is bad. Looneyton's back in action. And if you start asking people about their favorite good bad movies, you'll find they have a lot to say on the subject. Like, listen, 2003 Joe Dante made this movie because he hated Space Jam. So I'm going to make a proper movie and that's like Steve Martin was like a lot to say.

And it's like a subtle critique of capitalism where it's like, you kind of can't stop them. And then transport them back into people to buy the stuff. And it's like, oh yeah, it's like something. I would say something about Mary. I love that movie, but it's not in the, what's that dumb closet everybody goes into. The criteria for a night's tale.

And they do the dance to Golden Years by David Bowie. It's kind of like very going back to my childhood as like a young straight man, but Jack S.2. I mean, I love high school musical. Hey, live. Twilight.

Any classic Adam Sandler movie, like water boys. It's a spice world. I'm so glad that spice world made it to you friend. By a world, dude. These good bad movies occupy a special place in our hearts, despite the fact that they're probably not going to win any Oscars.

And so today, we are going to talk about good bad movies. And about what makes a bad movie so eminently watchable. I'm joined in my good bad movie deep dive by my colleague Maya Salam, who, for the last year, has been writing a column about good bad movies for the times. And later in this episode, I will gather a couple other of my esteemed colleagues, Cathy Brodester, Ackner and Gilbert Cruz, to tell me about their must see good bad movies.

It's Sunday, September 13th. Maya Salam, welcome to the Sunday Daily. Thank you so much Rachel. I'm thrilled to be here. So Maya, you have been working on this project, which seems very fun about good bad movies.

You have been naming good bad movies. You've been dissecting them. You've been trying to figure out the specific ingredients that make a good bad movie so beloved.

And I want to talk about all of those ingredients, but first, let's define what we are talking about what do we mean when we say good bad movie.

Well, first, let me say that everyone has their own rubric, their own parameters, their own boxes that need to be checked for a good bad movie.

And for me, it's a movie that has at least one element, but usually more that are completely over the top, are completely absurd. And the movie must be above all else highly watchable, highly rewatchable. And while it may not be great cinema so to speak, they are movies that are infectious or beloved that people return to again and again and often have a lot of feelings and memories tied up with them. Let's talk about an example of a good bad movie. You have written about all different sorts of good bad movies.

“Let's pick one Maya, which one should we talk about today?”

Let's pick volcano. Volcano. Excellent. Volcano is a 1997 disaster action movie starring Tommy Lee Jones and Anne Hayes. All right, let's get this guy out of here. You're going to get set to vote, we are dealing with care, this is the volcano.

All we can do is get out of this myth with an assist from Don Cheeto and a young Gabby Hoffman. But really, it's Tommy Lee Jones doing what he does best in the 90s, which is screaming directions under pressure to support it in while leading a team. Hey, he's going out of here now.

He's basically trying to save the city of Los Angeles from a volcano that is about to arrive.

Why are they right now spilling out on a wheelchair full of art? It's coming right out of the ground itself. So, okay, I know this movie for the uninitiated for people that did not have the pleasure of seeing this film. Tell us a little bit more about why it might qualify as a good bed movie. Some of the things that make volcano a good bad movie are the fact that the main cast while other people are catching fire,

exploding melting before eyes. The main cast barely breaks a sweat, even though they are the closest to the lava and Haitian Tommy Lee Jones are more or less just fine, even when they're hanging just near feet above a lava flow. It's like a lava tube.

“It's things like this that are good bad gold, honestly.”

Okay, so it's very watchable. It's highly unrealistic. What makes it bad? What makes it the bad part of the good bad of volcano? Yeah, usually try to kind of identify one element in all these movies that really is bad.

And in volcano, that is the fact that they try to tie in this metaphor of racial tension and loss and loss in the 1990s. Make the volcano a metaphor for that. There's a mention of Rodney King. There's a child who is at the end while everyone is covered in ash. Realizes that he's, you know, color blind because everyone's the same color.

Extremely cringy. Woof, they definitely not necessary to the plot.

So basically, this film decided it had to be about more than just a volcano erupting in Los Angeles.

And in your estimation, did not pull that off particularly well. Exactly that. The elephant in the room here, I feel like, is also the fact that, you know, who gets to define what is good.

“If a movie is broadly popular, does that not mean that it's good?”

Does it, is it only good if it wins an Oscar? Is it only good if the crit, I mean, this is like an argument is all this time a little bit. So it's sort of interesting to think about who gets to define what even makes a movie good to begin with. I think what I love about these choices and getting to kind of elevate these movies is because when we talk about a lot of movies that are obviously wonderful cinema, great films. You know, they get a lot of attention and as they should.

And then, you know, we give a lot of attention to movies that flop apically. But there's this really rich middle and this series kind of does service to that middle because whether these movies were blockbusters and some of them were and whether where they were complete flops in every sense of the word. They've managed to remain relevant and a lot of them have like universal name recognition.

So even if you've never watched them, you're aware of it.

They really worked their way into the pop cultures, I guess. And also people still want to talk about them, right? I have to confess to you when we were even discussing your series here on the daily inevitably every single discussion we had turned into. Producers editors host, everybody wanted to talk about their favorite movie that might not necessarily be considered good, but that they loved. I wonder what you make of that that that reaction that your series has instilled. I love that question and I love that this has done that.

You know, we're living in a time where there's really no monoculture. So there is something really nostalgic and satisfying about getting to have sort of these watercolor conversations that were common once upon a time. How often these days do we talk to somebody and they ask have you seen the show? Have you seen this film? And not only haven't you seen it, you may be have never even heard of it, you know?

But I think with these good bad movies, I think what they are is the opportunity to banter the opportunity to have these debates, low stakes debates because these movies are low stakes.

“It is fun to get the opportunity to do that and it's also fun to say why don't you fight me on it a little bit? Why don't we have this push and pull for something that doesn't really matter all that much?”

Okay, I really want to lean into that idea that we should all be having sort of low stakes fights with other people that somehow that is identifying to our souls. So after the break, that's exactly what we're going to do. We've grabbed a couple more of our esteemed colleagues, both culture writers. We've asked each of them to pick their most beloved good, bad movie of all time and we'll have some good, bad low stakes debate about it. Let's do that. That sounds so fun. 33 presidents. I called the president at 430 in the morning and he answered seven decades in space. We want to see what's beyond the next star.

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Subscribe now for a special offer at nytimes.com/subscribe. Okay, we are back. Maya, welcome back. I have assembled all of you here today for a low stakes debate. We have Maya Salam ready to fight playfully. I've also got Gilbert Cruz, the Times' new canon editor, which means that Gilbert is in charge of thinking about great books, great TV shows, great movies,

also former books and culture editor.

Rachel, thanks for having me. And we have Taffy Brodesser Actner, a novelist and a writer for The Times magazine. Taffy, thank you for being here. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. How's everybody feeling today?

Good, bad. Great, I'm confused by you calling it low stakes. I agree. This is pretty high stakes. Okay, okay, Maya, you're the one that came up with the low stakes debate I did. Do you want to explain what I mean about that is what makes a lot of these good, bad movies.

Fun is that they are meant to be watched and to be bantered about, to have funny comments, to watch not so quietly. Taffy, does that satisfy your question? I guess so. The reasonable people can disagree.

“I think the thing with Taffy is it's impossible for her to ever talk about movies in a low stakes way,”

even if she's talking about a good, bad movie, a good movie, a bad movie. Well, that is slightly terrifying because, okay, okay, Gilbert and Taffy, you are both movie lovers. Are you good, bad movie lovers? Are they part of your diet? Is this, is this a topic that you have thought about before? Taffy, let's start with you.

I mean, I feel I have been fighting my whole life to say that if it's good, it's good. And it doesn't matter what its profanence or its vintage is. And it doesn't matter, I don't care where a movie went to school. I care that it made me feel something and that it's memorable, and that it sort of changes my metabolism and that it locks me in.

You don't care that a movie had a good pedigree. Yeah. Gilbert, would you agree with that?

“Not really. I think there are good things in this world. I think there are bad movies.”

The way in which those two things come together and the good bad movie is, it's something, I think, to my point, that you find yourself drawn to again and again, even as you're able to identify parts of it that are bad, whether it's script or the cinematography or the music or various performances, can be genuinely bad in my opinion.

However, those are balanced out by other parts of the movie that are so compelling to you, that you find yourself, whether because of nostalgia reasons or what heavy watching something over and over again. There are many movies that I love and I love them because I think they're genuinely good. There are several, some of the movies we're going to talk about today are in a different category. I think it's okay for them to be in a different category.

You guys are making the distinction, the distinction as old as Hollywood itself, between a movie that is good because we can appreciate that it is good on paper,

Are we allowed to call movies good just because they are enjoyable and perhaps even popular?

I say yes, but it seems like Gilbert says no.

“I think, Taffy, if I said to you, what is the difference between Michael Clayton,”

one of your favorite movies, which is a good movie, capital G, good movie, and one or two of the movies that you're going to talk about in a few minutes, I think you would put them in different categories, perhaps. You know what, that's a very good question. When we started talking about this, us thinking again about the prominence of even the discussion,

and I wondered how everybody else shows their movies, since in the vast canon, lower case C, of movies, to me, this was a crushing assignment. You're raising a good point, which is, we should talk about the criteria that you guys are using to define good, bad, and Maya, since this is your project, you want to, let's run your theory of the case by Gilbert and Taffy and see what they think.

Okay, and there are no wrong answers to this question in my opinion. We'll tell you if that's true. We'll see about that.

“And I do think this conversation about the philosophy of what good means, what bad means,”

and what good bad means, this is really the point, the conversation that's happening right now. So while they are called, good, bad, and the way that we break it down is what makes us movie good, it's actual redeemable qualities. What makes it bad, it's irreduvable qualities, and what makes it good bad, which is the silly, the fun, the completely over the top, you know, maybe it's the corny special effects, the cringy puns, the overacting,

it gets to a point where they all loop back into virtues, and make the movie what it is. Gilbert, can an editor, what do you think? I, you know, I agree more with Maya than I disagree. I mean, I recently was on vacation and we threw on point break because the end of the film was filmed near where we were vacationing in Oregon. And I love that movie.

I've seen it many times. It has some of the best action scenes that were filmed in the 90s. And then you have Keanu Reeves' line deliveries that are not good. You cannot look at Keanu Reeves and I am FBI agent. And feel like that was the right take, like surely there were a couple more takes.

Yet, the movie is emanately rewatchable, quite amazing in certain parts, even though there are these elements that you can identify is just not great. I can watch a great movie, a Chinatown, a there will be blood and say, I actually know notes. I don't see a lot that I would quibble with.

Go with God.

But you can always find something in a good bad movie.

They can make fun of. And when you're watching it in the group, everyone laughs at the same time because it's so dumb. Exactly that. I think there's something to be teased out about for each individual person, how much their idea of a good bad movie.

It's attached to nostalgia in some way. I encountered this when I was younger, when I was a teenager, what have you? I've seen it many, many, many times, whether because for those of a certain age, it was on cable or I had played the DVD over and over again in college. There's a way in which familiarity sort of breeds that affection for a film.

I think a lot of people when they think of their favorite good bad movie, there's a good chance that it might be something that they watched.

I don't know, as a teenager on their first date at the summer that they met their first love.

Like something that just reminds you of a period of time that maybe is frozen in amber in your mind along with the feeling. And that to me is a key ingredient when a lot of people try to think of like what their favorite good bad movie is, is how it makes them feel or how they remember it making them feel.

“That's how I feel that when I was telling my family why I was watching this movie,”

I didn't tell them why I was watching the movie. I told them that when I was 17 and had a driver's license, the first thing I did, the first time I drove alone, was I went to the the UA and sheep's head bay because they were playing this movie. And I, and I was maybe there were three other people in the theater,

and I couldn't believe it. I loved it and you can't take that away. When I was just watching it again this morning, I was, I wasn't sheep's head bay again. And the way I think is funny is despite all the playful headbutting,

we do agree at the end of the day. We do pretty much agree. You're such a peacemaker, Maya. Okay, and on that lovely and civilized note,

When we come back, we are going to talk about the good bad movies

“that each of you brought here today for our low stakes,”

maybe to some high stakes debate. We'll be right back. All right, now, I want to hear everybody's pick for their favorite good bad movie, Maya.

This is your project, so why don't you go first?

It is actually quite difficult to pick my favorite good bad movie. I decided that I'm going to go with Greece too. Michelle Fiverr, chomping on a piece of gum, in so many different ways, and probably the gum deserved an end credit to be honest.

Here she is, well, I'm going to be late, let's go. Okay, so give us a brief synopsis of Greece too, for those of us who might have only seen Greece one. Yeah, so in Greece too, had first of all twice the budget of Greece one. What?

It came out in 1982, about four years after the original, which was a blockbuster, cultural phenomenon, critical darling. Greece too comes out, at least the same day as ET. So, you can see how that probably went for Greece too,

but it has become truly a camp classic.

Michelle Fiverr's first lead role,

and she is the disenchanted leader of the pink ladies. She meets this babe and a half on a motorcycle, Maxwell, coffee, also giving us a little Superman as half-dork, half superhero. You're a really smart guy, you know that?

“You must think I'm so kind of dummy, huh?”

Actually, I think you'll kind of terrific. Get out of here. But there are musical numbers you couldn't believe, it's extremely rungy, so many sexual in you and those, and just shaped the lives of millions by promissio.

Okay, let's split, I mean, this just sounds like a good movie to me, but now what are we doing here?

Why don't we drill down what makes this movie

specifically a good bad movie to you, Maya? This trust me, this is not just a good movie, I can, I need to watch it. It is the cornyest, the cheesiest. Is there like a specific scene or a line that really kind of encapsulates

the good bad quality of Greece too? What's the final score? Final score happens later tonight. The most rebellious thing that these kids and Greece to do is go bowling.

That's so quaint. And they are so excited about this bowling alley. Come on, everybody, gather round. I'm gonna show you how to knock them down. So this is a big number, not only do you have the entire main cast.

The bowling alley is filled with quote-unquote teenagers who all look like they're about for it. This is an airworm, the movie is full of airworms. But they are so corny and cheesy and horny. I didn't understand how horny this movie was, actually.

It is so horny that somehow they make bowling, the Olympic-ly unsextyous sport, the sexy. They certainly try. The bowling contains multiple stars. I don't know. It is so horny that somehow they make bowling.

The Olympic-ly unsextyous sport, the sexy. They certainly try. The bowling contains multiple suits. There are a lot of puns with pins, again. It is over the top in every conceivable way, which is, again, good-bad gold.

But also imagine that you're trying to make Greece too. It's already so iconic. It's possible you just freeze and you can't do it. It's very true. I have sympathy.

I have sympathy.

“I think it's earnestness, but I think it's also desperation.”

Can I just tell you this before we go to Taffy, I assume it's next. The weekend it came out. The movies that were also out this weekend. The movie theater were E.T. Star Trek II, Rocky III, and Poltergeist.

Greece too had no chance. No chance. No chance. Gilbert, let's go to UNIX. I want to know about your favorite good-bad movie.

What did you bring us here to chew on today? Boy, I really was on the knife said here. Not sure which of the two movies that I watched last night when I definitely

I was going to talk about here.

“The first movie I watched, which is not the movie I'm going to talk about,”

is 1995's Congo, which I look forward to doing an entire separate podcast, Rachel with you about. Yep, great. So that's why Solomon's done. Let's one never found.

The myth of the killer is true. I can't believe it. But the actual movie is 1995's Hackers. There's a new virus in the database. What's happening?

It's replicating eating up memory. Hackers is a film about a group of teenagers who are living in New York. And they are hackers. They are trying to break into mainframes and mess around with the film company. And there's too many garbage files.

And even more time.

And in doing all this, they get on the wrong side of a corporation

who sort of sticks the law on them. Games over. Last chance to get out of this without a prison sentence. You're not good enough. So that's the plot of the film.

But that's not why I love this movie. Gilbert, why do you love this movie? It is. And this is a word that is overused. So I'm sorry.

I'm using it.

“But it's the definition to me of like a vibes forward movie.”

It's a compilation tape. It's my own make. I call this great juxtap. Featuring artists like.

I guess some Hendrix on there.

Some job with mama cast. Blue sheet. All great artists that have fixated on their own vomit. The vibes come at you very frontally. And the movie ends up being about the costumes.

It ends up being about the music. It ends up being about all of the rollerblading scenes. It just ends up being about all of the things that make the feel of the movie as opposed to the actual detail like the plot details of the movie. That's a nice score for a girl.

Are you better? I cannot adequately describe. Maybe my can. The way the kids dress in this movie. The cyberpunk fashion really holds up.

I feel like you can see it on her runway now. Or it burning around me on. Or burning on. Absolutely. There's all shades of lame and all metallics.

The fits are, I mean, the actual fit. They fit well. They are so cool. And feel like kind of the future even now. I don't know.

There's all these movies are often time capsules. But none are really time capsules like hackers. It is like, series show me 19. Like just all the components of it. Just build it.

There is a scene when Matthew Lillard who's performance in this film. I think it's a number one for me. I could just watch his scenes and be happy. There's a YouTube super cut that exists of just his stuff in this film. And he's sitting in Washington Square Park watching some old guys play chess.

And something beeps and he looks down and says beeper. Yo, I'm blowing up. It's Kate, Grand Central. Let's hit it. And then he starts to rollerblade up towards Grand Central Station.

While a song by the prodigy place. And it is at this moment when I just, you know, I leave my body as they say. And I am, I am a good bandervana. [laughter]

There's a lot of stuff that is so dumb. The way that we thought about quote hacking. And the way we thought about presenting computers on film was visualizations of like math equations. And you see a person just typing frantically at a computer.

And then flashes of electricity are going before their eyes. It was this way in which we didn't really understand yet what the internet was going to be. And therefore did not know how to represent it. And therefore could only represent it in the dumbest looking way possible.

I call it flying through cyberspace visual arts. Definitely, there's so much swooping through like towers of cobe. [laughter] Are you saying that that's not how computers work? Rachel's definitely how computers work.

I don't know why suggested otherwise. When this one hackers came out,

“do you remember was it considered instantly good bad?”

Or was it considered instantly bad bad? I think it was considered bad at the time. And one of the things that maybe we haven't discussed is how it's possible that there needs to be some distance for something to reach this state of film

that we are generally talking about here. A lot of times something can come out

and yet given a little time or a little distance,

“it grows a fandom, it grows a cult or people just understand.”

Actually, this is just a good time. And I can just have a good time with it. Or you look back and realize that it had something that you took for granted in the moment. Like hackers now stands as a sort of museum piece

to show my teenage shell trim and say, "This is what we thought computers would do." This is like, "This is what we thought it was going to be like." This is what we thought it was going to be like. This is the end, my friend.

Thank you for calling. "Hack the planet!" "Hack the planet!" Okay, last but not least, Taffy, you are up. Okay, here were the contenders.

Okay. Armageddon? Limitless? Conair.

Put the bunny back in the box.

Bring it on. And the answer was, is that we're ready? I'm ready. I went with face-off.

“"I'd like to take his face off off off off off off off off off."”

Face-off decides that if it commits to the bit enough, you will go with it. This is so crazy. And yet, it doesn't take itself seriously exactly. It's more than it takes itself

as legitimate. But you were in a coma. Nothing I can having your face cut off to disturb your sleep. Tell us what it's about.

Tell us what it's about. I will tell you what face-off is in as much as I can because it's a look confusing. Archer and FBI agents

are very uptight and played by John Travolta. We opened up his on a carousel and a sniper played by Nicholas Cage. Shoot him, bullet goes right through John Travolta and hits his son, his son dies.

Archer, the FBI agent, years later, he has a chance at getting back the assassin with the character.

We still got no sign of casting. The thing to know is that he's just a 90s era bad guy. You don't even need to explain it that arched.

You're not having any fun, aren't you, Sean? Watch, come with us. Try terrorism for harm? This only solution years later

is for Nicholas Cage to have his face. His face removed. For nonsense on Travolta's face which of course has been preemptively removed.

And he's such face. Face off. They actually do that in the movie. That's where the name comes from. It's stuck.

The outside exactly like force then we fit his face on top. Not a replica, but the real thing. Then we simply connect the muscles to your doctor.

They're science, they're science. The procedure is completely reversible. You think that I want to do this? I know I'm not being coherent. But if I promise the listener

I'm being 20 times more coherent than the movie. That's what I do. If you can't, the bomb will blow and cast a Troy will win.

There is so much slow motion in this movie. There are so many operatic sequences, including opera sequences. There is

it is shot like a music video in the style of the action that plays out on a monitor during karaoke. This is not a good bad movie.

This is a great bad movie. Face off is just whack-a-do. It stars one of the prime movers in the good bad movie space. Nicholas Cage, giving

quite a ball to the wall performance. It is directed by John Woo who's a genuinely good director who somehow has still made some incredibly good bad movies.

I agree with Taffy.

I don't always agree with Taffy.

I make it a point to disagree with her as much possible, but I think in this case she's right.

“The thing I remember most about face off”

I was ten years old when it came out.

It was rated, I was not allowed to see it.

Oh my god. I just ran home and watched it.

“I really wanted to walk away from this episode”

with at least one good bad movie that I must watch tonight. That might have to be it. Do we all agree that this is a great restaurant?

Nice try. I'm sorry. I didn't realize Gilbert was going to get to keep again. I think it's face off because I think

it's face off even more than hackers is a time capsule of not just what the 90s looked like and not just whatever our point of view was.

But what we are missing now

which is bonkers movies. This came out within days of Con Air, which was another candidate for this episode. Guys, we used to make movies.

We used to make movies hoping we could make something for everyone and it's sort of like a tragedy that we don't anymore.

“And that's why you should watch face off.”

I made my case. She rests ladies and gentlemen. She rests her case. I have to definitely say face off as the one for you to watch tonight.

And so that the word "piche"

is used as a sexual euphemism.

Not once, not twice, by three times my necklace cage. And also it has multiple endings. You've reached a climax. You think this movie is ended

while what a big shootout scene. But it is not the end. There are at least three endings that any one of them would have made

a fine ending, but we get all three. Two faces, three endings. Who can ask for anything more? Watch face off. What do you think I should watch?

Now I just said that to be contrary because I'm annoying.

“I think the interneter is going to keep saying that.”

Taffy. Taffy is correct. Face off. And I'm going to go watch that tonight. So thank you.

All three of you. Gilbert Cruz. Taffy Borders are actor. And Maya Salam for doing this with me today. I speak for all of us when I say it was our privilege.

Except for Gilbert who speaks for himself. And for everyone else. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you, Rachel. Hold you, and it's locked in ready.

Follow, or just leave. They took the switch. It's like looking at a mirror only. Not. Plan B.

This is kill each other. Listeners, I did watch it. I watched face off. I watched as much of it as I could stomach. My visual take is that it is just bad.

What a predicament. We hope you enjoyed this conversation. But maybe you think we are wrong about these movies. Maybe you think face off is a good, good movie. Well, arguing is half the fun.

And you can argue with us in the comments of this episode. Tell us your favorite good bed movie. Find us at NYTimes.com/TheDaily. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Tina Antelini, and Lane of Richards. And was edited by Wendy Dorr, an engineered by Rowan Nemisto.

Production assistance from Dahlia Hadad. It features original music by Dan Powell and Mary and Lesano. That's it for the Sunday Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.

I'm Gilbert Cruz. This week on the Book Review podcast. When I start this book, I go into a trance. Jonathan Franson's "The Corrections" is turning 25. It was written in a hyperverbal fever.

We discuss its staying power and its place on the New York Times's 100 Best Books of the 21st Century List. Pretty good work. Pretty good work. Listen to the book review wherever you get your podcasts.