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“From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Ketro F. This is the Daily on Sunday.”
Right now, here in New York City, the greatest tennis players in the world are gearing up for the last and arguably biggest event of the year. The US Open. The tournament is played in Billie Jean King National Tennis Center, which is home of the biggest tennis arena on Earth, Arthur Ash City. It's where Pete Sampress ended his
career in an epic match with Andre Agassie. We're Venus and Serena Williams first
based off in a major championship final. John McEnroe, Bjorn Borg, Steffi Graf and Monica Celis, Novak Jokevich and everybody. Some of tennis's most iconic rivalries played out at the US Open. And that's happening again, but in a new era, with new stars jucking for their place in history. So on today's show, I'm talking with Matthew Futterman who covers tennis for the athletic,
a sports publication owned by the Times, and is the author of the new book, The Cruelest Game, Chasing Greatness and Professional Tennis. We're going to talk about those new stars chasing greenness. Their stories, their struggles, their friendships, and rivalries. Everything that makes tennis may be the most compelling and dramatic one-on-one competition anywhere in the world. It's Sunday, August 30th.
Welcome to the Sunday Daily. Thanks for being here in studio, taking time away from the grueling US Open schedule. Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
“So I want to start off with a bang. What to you? Is the greatest rivalry in tennis history?”
Hands down, Chris Everton, Martin and Everettalova. All you can think about is beating Chris Everett for the second time in three weeks. They played 80 times. We've seen back to back to Feats for Chrissy there with 60 of those times that they played were in finals. Wow. Martin is trying to defend her title and Chris is trying to win the title for the seventh. They were such a contrast in styles. Martin and
the smart play came right in as she's been doing. Chris Everettalova, Eastern European. Chris Everettalova, I will put this in quotes that all American girl next door. Are you getting hit all in all the time as well from men or do you just care the pants? Yeah, not that much. I mean, I really don't see a lot of men around the circuit today
the truth. This is a rivalry that had everything including an incredible personal relationship
between the two of them. They were friends. They were incredible friends. They were doubles partners. And then that was too hard for Chris Everettalova to be doubles partners with her big rival. Because I wasn't the kind of player that really liked to play my friends or my sister, people that I cared about. And she stopped playing doubles with her and that was like a real personal hurt to Martina. She had just defected to America. She was all
Alone and she really felt like her friend had broken up with her.
with with the people that I played against. I preferred that. Also then Martina started beating Chris like all the time and that became very hard. Then Chris kind of fought back but also they both had that cancer together and gone through treatment together. You know, she was
“in the trenches with me and she was comforting me in at very important times. We were always”
there for each other. It was pretty good. It's not only a completely fascinating sports rivalry,
it's a fascinating personal relationship and an amazing friendship.
Okay. This is precisely what I want to talk about today. The beautiful human drama of tennis. I think a lot of people who love tennis love it because of the characters. I fell in love with watching this sport in the Serena Williams era. The Roger Federer Rafael Nadal era. Those players were so important to me. You fall in love with these people. You do. You're up when they're up. You're crushed when they're crushed. But Matt, I have to admit that this time I'm going
into the US Open being like, who exactly am I supposed to be obsessed with here? I don't totally
“know. And so that's what I have you here for. I'm hoping you'll tell me. Help me. It was a little”
like music. They say that the music you fall in love with the rest of your life is the music you hear when you're a teenager. And so... The backstreet boys? I think I was a little more fortunate. They're good with that. Spring seeming around when I was a teenager. I think it's the same way
about tennis. You sort of fall in love with that first era for me. It was, you know,
pork, mac and row conners, violas. Right. Having said that, I would say you're in a little bit of a moment of transition. Although the transition has kind of already happened, but it hasn't quite sorted itself out yet into what the new world order is. What do you mean by that? You have these
“giants of the game that had dominated the sport for the last 20 years and, you know, no back to”
look of it. Roger Federer. Federer. Turns it up to where that's. I found the doll. That's his phenomenal doll. Dream of Williams.
Dream of Williams. Incredible, touched by Serena Williams. Dream of Exit and her sister, Venus Williams.
So, you know, you have these, you know, lions and lionesses of the sport who are kind of exiting the stage. Rather slowly, um, getting screaming. Yeah. So, a little bit kicking and screaming, but they still loom large. They still suck up a huge amount of oxygen in the tennis conversation. But then you have these, this whole generation of incredibly talented new players who have come along, Yannick Center, Kraus Outgrass, Coco Gough, Arunis Evelank, Egasch FianTech, and so there's this whole
new generation of terrific young players who are not only trying to win tennis matches, but also thrive for 15, 20 years. Because it's incredibly grueling, right, the schedule that these players maintain over the course of a year. It's grueling both mentally and physically. They're playing what seven months a year, eight months, how 11. That is, yeah, I mean, an NFL player. Yeah, it's a pretty tough sport. They do get six months of vacation. Right. And we should say,
though these players are playing most of the year, most viewers tune in to these four big tournaments. What we call the grand slam tournaments. This is one of four times when these players get in front of a global audience for the biggest prize in their sport. Yeah, the slams as they refer to starts in Australia in January, then French Open, Wimmelden, and then the U.S. Open. It all finishes up. They kind of drag themselves to New York. And a lot of them are pretty banged up by the time
they get here, which is one of the reasons it makes it sort of the most unpredictable of the grand slams. Yes, say what special about this tournament? The U.S. Open. I mean, it starts with just the New York of it off. This is where barrier breakers. We train chases. It's noisy. It's chaotic. I mean, it is intense. You can feel it when you're there. But I think you can feel it watching it on TV. The
Atmosphere, it feels different.
offer. And also, and I really highly recommend you don't miss this part of it. There are these people doing what I would argue is just about the hardest sport in the world. A sport that requires the lungs of a marathon or the speed and quickness of a world-class sprinter, ridiculous hand-eye coordination. They're sweating. They're out there. It's hot. They're given everything they have with their heart and soul to try and win that last point in a sport that reveals everything about them.
Their personalities and there's just no place to hide in this sport. It is human drama playing out in the most incredibly compelling form with balls and rackets and a lot of athleticism.
“All right. So, given that what I think we should do today is spend some time diving into those”
people who are going to be doing that amazing thing. The characters that we're going to be following
at the US Open sound good. That sounds great. Perfect. I'm Jonathan Knight and I'm the general manager of New York Times Games. If you play our games, you probably know there's something a bit different about them. Just like there are writers behind the articles you read in the times, there are creators behind our daily puzzles. Tracy Bennett curates the day's
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it should be time well spent, solving puzzles that are challenging, surprising, and joyful. Puzzles handcrafted for you. We think that's something worth investing in and something worth paying for. Subscribe now for a special offer on all of our games at nytimes.com/joingames. Okay Matt, let's start with a women's draw. Who should we be talking about? New faces, new
“era, I'm ready. Well, not so fast because I think we probably need to talk about a rather”
familiar name, Serena Williams. You might have heard of her. I love her so much. Rather a good tennis player turns out. One of the biggest tennis tournaments now set to featured defending champion Carlos Alcaraz and the goat Serena Williams. Serena announced a couple of weeks ago that she was going to come back and she was going to play mixed doubles with Carlos Alcaraz, which is one of the biggest things I would say that has happened
in tennis this year. The surprise announcement coming months into Williams come back campaign,
including sort of left reluctantly in 2022 because you wanted to have a second child and
really felt like she couldn't do that and also continue to play tennis. Just really missed the sport. It's interesting, because I've done it literally my entire life.
“And so when you stop something that you've done since honestly I can remember, I don't”
remember a start date. I think you kind of take it for granted and so now she has been very open about her use of the GOP1 drugs that have helped her lose weight post child birth. It has really changed her life. She said as she has put it, it has given her her body back. She played on Tuesday. The mixed doubles happens before the singles tournament now at the U.S. open and it was quite the scene. I mean you're witnessing a 44-year-old mother of
two play in a way that I think nobody really thought was possible. Second point of that match.
There's like a floater that comes to her and she rears back to stuff this overhead. I'm sitting like 20 rows up and I swear if I had had my eyes closed, I would have been able to say, "Oh, that's Serena Williams hitting a tennis ball." It's just classic. It makes your skin tingle.
You hear the thump of the ball coming off the strings.
off any other players' racket and it's just an amazing spectacle to watch.
They lost their next match, unfortunately. But it was one of those moments where she was just like so back. We are just so lucky that we still get to see Serena Williams play tennis. I think it is one of life's great joys to watch this person play this sport and we should all treasure it. And it's not over, right? That wasn't the end of Serena Williams in this thing. No, it wasn't. She is coming back for another go at it. She announced a couple of days ago that
she is going to play doubles with her sister, Venus. They've won a lot before and who knows. We'll see what they can do.
Okay, so we still get to do this for a little bit longer, at least. Who else should I be keeping an eye
on that? And if you say Martina Neverchelova is coming back or something, I'm going to have to ask you to
“leave. Neverchelova is not coming back. I kind of think you should probably keep your eye”
on Coco Goff. Okay, that's what Goff can do. The great American hope. Well, I'd say at this point it's more than hope. I mean, you know, she's the real thing. She won her first grand same title at this U.S. Open three years ago. Get up, Coco Goff. You've just won the U.S. Open. Last year she won the French Open. Coco has conquered the clay. She's one of these people that is an athlete who could do just about anything.
She probably has world class, brainer speed. Just about you can't hit the ball pastor. She's that fast. You know, but the funny thing about tennis is God doesn't give anybody everything. She has a very active mind. And, you know, she can get in her head sometimes. And the last couple
years, she has really struggled with the most important shot in the game, which has her serve.
Every other shot you make. Someone's hit a ball at you. The serve is yours. It should be in some ways the easiest shot in the game. And in most cases, it's the hardest. And the easiest to get in your head about. And the easiest to get in your head about. She really had two double faults in this opening game. And it's gotten into her head. It also can be her biggest strength when Coco's serve is firing as it has been the last month. She is probably just about the most dangerous
player on the planet. Two fantastic serves from Coco Goff. And so important to watch her toss. She is on top of that, the bell of this ball. It's her tournament to win our loose. It sounds like. Well, it's not only her tournament, it's her party. Okay. I mean, you walk around the grounds of the US open and Coco is everywhere. You know, you walk around this city, you know, over the next few weeks, Coco is everywhere. There are billboards. There's posters. She's the most popular player
certainly in tennis in America right now. Okay. Well, I wouldn't want to play her on these
“courts. I don't think we want to play Coco on any. I think that would be for the best. Fair enough.”
Yeah. Who is standing in her way? Like who's her biggest competition? Probably Arena Sabolinka. In the finals three years ago, Sabolinka crumbled. I'm really starting to get under the skin of Sabolinka. They played each other in the finals of the French Open last year. Sabolinka crumbled. I mean, I'm forced to recount because they were accumulating quite a bit from Sabolinka and they weren't even at many bomb points. Long rally there. She's coming so
Arena Sabolinka world number one. She's wanted this so badly for so long in Arena Sabolinka. Has not won the U.S. Open. From Belarus superstar six feet tall, huge power,
“incredible fire. Again, greatest strength, also greatest weakness. So is that incredible fire?”
Sometimes she loses control of it. She's had a rough couple of months. She's lost a lot of close matches a lot earlier in tournaments than we would have anticipated. And tennis is a sport where you bring everything you have on to a tennis court. You're out there alone. You are your whole
Self and compartmentalization can be difficult sometimes.
feels resonant for me watching her is that she is seemingly completely open about her emotion. Just want to quit tennis right now, but we'll see. We'll see in a few days, hopefully I'll get back on track mentally. I mean, they are all on the court. You watch her crumble when she crumbles and you see her high per self up when she's hyping herself up. There's something very accessible about the kind of waves that she rides.
“I definitely feel that way. I honestly find watching a reading Sabolinka a kind of a painful”
experience. Why? Well, because of those waves, there are some players where you feel like you're the copilot with them. They kind of strap you in for the ride. And Sabolinka, sometimes she brings you in to the car with her. But sometimes that can be a kind of bumpy and uncomfortable ride and you don't necessarily want to be in the car with her. Arina Sabolinka, when she is losing and she is on the ropes, you can feel that in a very visceral way. Okay, so lots emotionally at stake with both
Coco Gough and Arina Sabolinka, who else? Who else could contend? Egaschviantex, best player
the last five years, seven grandson titles, incredible talent. And what the forehand is cooking?
“It's so dangerous. She can hit it hard down the line or roll her deep cross-court or short.”
Brittle mentally. A very, very tough opening match for Egaschviantex. And you can see what it's taken out of her. She's visibly emotional. Feels her feelings. Self-consciousness and self-awareness. Sometimes you're not great things. In sports. Yeah. Better to be the robot, better to be the goldfish. She's not the goldfish. That was scary for Egaschviantex. Miran Drava, 19 years old.
A teenage dream has come true. From Russia, huge new talent broke through with her first grandson
title at French Open earlier this year. It's Miss Malfex on the right line. She's a kid, though still. Fair enough. She's a young woman, 19 years old, but she is a kid. Her coach the
“last couple of years can cheat on Martinez is essentially Obi-Wan Kenobi. She's Luke Skywalker.”
That's the relationship here. Sometimes it works. Sometimes Mirac can hold it together. Sometimes she's a teenager on the court. What a remarkable recovery from this 21 year old. Linda Nazgava, women with champion, huge talent. Only going to get better. The
she is the latest Vanguard of this Czech women's tennis machine. This is a country of 11 million
people. They have like nine players in the top 50. What an advert for Czech tennis. What an advert for women's tennis. I mean, there was, yeah, kind of an incredible thing. So keep an eye on her. Okay, not that I needed more excitement, but you have persuaded me that the women's side of this tournament is very exciting. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and talk about the men. Matt, the men feel a little more clear to me because there's a proven star in the mix,
Carlos Alcarez, who just played mixed doubles with Serena, just tell me about him, where he's at right now, how he arrived here and where we encounter him in this moment. It Carlos is the goal in child of this tennis generation. Carlos Alcarez wins his first major and in doing so becomes the youngest ever. Well, number one. And for the most part, Carlos is just about the most joyful tennis player. People since he came on the scene five years ago.
They love to watch him. Oh, no way. But they love to watch him. Love how much he loves to play. You know, he pulls off these shots that it seems like he's just sort of the ultimate like jazz musician who's improvising and riffing and doing things that he didn't even know he was capable of. For the ball was behind him and he still somehow being able to find the winner.
They looked as though he completely overrun this ball.
You know, one of the fun things about being a sports writer is there are some athletes that you meet when they're pretty young and you sort of get to see them evolve. And I remember in 2021, I went to one of his early matches. His first match in a singles grand slam draw. After that match, I sort of went for a little walk with him around the Australian open and no one has any idea who he is. Or who he's going to become. And who he's going to become. And in many ways,
he is still that kid on the tennis court. I mean, he's,
“yeah, life is going to take its toll on him. It probably already has in terms of his been suffering”
from a wrist injury. Probably the most serious injury a tennis player can have. But for the most part, he is, you know, that kid who is still full of joy. And I hope for his sake and for all of our
stakes. That's who he always is on the tennis court because it's a beautiful thing to watch.
Beautiful rainbow from Calito. You know, so much of the conversation around men's tennis has orbited. It feels like around Carlos Alcarez and his main rival, Janik Center from Italy. But center is not playing at the U.S. Open because of an injury. So my question is, who is Alcarez's big competition here? Well, I think if you're asking about his competitors,
“the first one you have to talk about is no fact joke of it's the goat. He still is tennis's”
nervous version, the superman. Still around and still hoping that it might all come together. And he can find a way to a 25th grand slam title. He's back in business. He is 39 years old. He is still right just about at the top of the sport which is just an astounding thing to consider given that he's 39 years old. Can you explain it? How is it that we are still seeing him compete at this level when Carlos Alcarez is 23? So a few years ago, I had dinner with
no that joke of it right before the U.S. Open. And it's two big salmon steaks, two big sweet potatoes, some rice, some gluten-free pasta with vegetables and a fruit cup. There's no sauce on the salmon.
“There's no butter on the sweet potatoes. The only thing on the pasta is olive oil and he's drinking water.”
Okay. Well, yeah. So that gives you an idea of how he is living. He gets out of bed every morning and he stretches for 45 minutes. I mean, I'm painting the picture of a monk, but he takes real joy in this lifestyle. He's really into wellness. You know, he treats his body like a formula and race car. Every little screw, every drop of oil that is in that car is thought about. He doesn't just accidentally be 39 years old and still be at the top of his game. So he is
intent on continuing to compete at this level. And it sounds like he has a real shot at still, potentially winning it all. Maybe if his body can hold up. You know, you have to win seven of these matches in order to win the tournament. He's come close. He's won six. Plus one set. He had Carlos Outgrass on the ropes in January at the Australian Open.
So it is potentially possible. It's at least intellectually possible. Never count no
back took of its out. I've been burned too many times for doing that. I will never do it again. He's still there. He's still doing it in real time. Okay. I have to confess that I really wanted your answer to that question to be an American because there are many American men in this tournament can we? It is the US Open. And it is the US Open. Can we talk about them? Like who, if you're rooting for an American, should you be getting excited about? Well, there's a lot of them
to get excited about. The two players people get most excited about these days who are Americans are probably Ben Shelton and Francis Tiaffa. Ben Shelton, he takes out his fellow American Francis Tiaffa. Ben Shelton, he's the best athlete I've ever seen on a tennis court. What a full hands. There's this age old question in American tennis because America has so many
sports that compete for the best young athletes, football, baseball, basketball. So we've always
Wondered what would have happened if Michael Jordan had a tennis racket in hi...
eight years old. What about Steph Curry? What about Patrick Mahomes? In Ben Shelton, you kind of have
“somebody who may have been one of those people. He was a really good teenage quarterback.”
I've seen him on this big grass field at Indian Wells throwing 60 yard passes into two of his fitness trainer. So he could have done that thing. But instead Ben realized pretty early on that he could miss more school. He didn't really like school very much. That he could miss like Mondays and Fridays if he was a good tennis player because he would be able to travel to some tournaments. So he decided when he was 14 years old that he would get serious about tennis and
try and play tennis for his father who was the coach of the University of Florida. And so in some sense Ben Shelton is the opportunity to see the answer to that experiment of when this great athletic specimen ends up with a tennis rack in his hand. Oh no, but it's ridiculous. Now, unfortunately,
“he got that tennis rack in his hand a little late. He's probably about eight years behind Carlos”
Alcaras in terms of how much practice he's had. Carlos Alcaras got serious at six. You know,
I tried to do like a rough calculation. It's probably on the order of like 10 to 15 million balls.
Meaning Carlos Alcaras has hit 10 to 15 million more balls than Shelton has. Probably why something like that having said that in addition, you know, Shelton is one of those players where all the emotions are on his sleeves. He loves that. The crowd's love it too. Lots of noise, very rowdy, very in your face. He has brought that onto the tour, ruffled some feathers early on for doing that. Oh, that's magnificent. But if there's a place that eats that up,
it's in New York. He has like open great celebrations, right? A huge serve. He's really fond of
it. It's the ball 150 miles an hour. He's arm nearly fell out of his shoulders. I'll get last year
at the US Open. Fortunately, it wasn't too serious of an injury. It's worth saying there's a lot writing on the possibility of an American victory because an American man hasn't won a grand slam one of those big four tournaments since 2003 when Andy Roddick did it. So we have been waiting for a while. Right. It looked like it was going to happen in 2022 when Francis Tiafo, another great talent terrific athlete who's an American got really close.
The son of African immigrants and his father was the maintenance guy at a tennis center. I have no idea. Yeah. And his mother would sometimes work nights. And so sometimes he and his brother would sleep at the tennis center. And when they were really little, you know, to busy themselves, they would grab a racket and hit balls against the wall. So the tennis pros notice that the maintenance
“guy's kids were pretty good at tennis. And that's how Francis got his start in the game.”
Francis TFO punching every ball down. Fast forward to 2022. The US Open, he beats the doll in the fourth round. And people are like, wow, an American is really going places and this draw is pretty open. The times they are a change in. Problem is, he faced off against Carlos Alcaras, who was just about two days away from becoming the Carlos Alcaras that we know today. But yeah. I mean, Tiafo is just one of those players that he has, but I would call tennis charisma.
See if I'm putting on a shot. You want to feel like you're the copilot and a tennis match? Go watch Francis Tiafo play. You will be there with him. And, you know, he is there for the show. Okay. Anybody else that we need to know about that we should be talking about here? It will certainly out of the end of his vera. Uh, German player who's been the best grand slam player this season. Nearly beat
alcohol as the Australian Open won the French Open and then he lost in the final teionic center at Wemmelden. He's had some off court problems. Yeah, there were allegations of domestic abuse with former girlfriends. There have been lots of issues around Alexander's there. There's also Arthur Fees who is a French player. Absolutely a rising star.
One his first big tournament last week in Cincinnati.
He's a similar athletic specimen to Ben Shelton, not quite as tall, but seriously powerful. Only issue is he's had this stress fracture and is back the last year or so and even he doesn't know when it might crop up again. You know, it seems as though there are ifs hanging over all of them and I'm wondering you have studied this sport so closely for so long, Matt. What do you think makes the difference? What determines how you get from that question mark
“to actually achieving the kind of victory that you need to be an enduring figure in this sport?”
That's a great question. Of course, if we knew the answer to it, you know, you and I would
be grand slam champions probably. That's why I'm asking you. I'm looking never know, right? You
never know. So, you know, in talking to these players, especially the great ones, there's a couple of key factors. One of them is understanding that your results are not your identity and that works to live by. Yeah, right? For all of us. Yeah, for all of us. Like, you are so much more of a person than you are on the tennis court. I mean, that's an incredibly hard thing to do when it's the only thing you've done since your eight years old and then you wake up in your 22 and you wonder,
wait a minute, haven't really done anything else. Like, who am I? How did I get here? What do I want to do with the rest of my life? So, yeah, results and identity can't be the same thing. There's a has to be a great focus on what's coming next. The shot you just hit is over. If you're
still thinking about it, you're going to miss the next ball. There's always another ball coming at you.
There's always another point to play. There's always another set to play a match, like another tournament, next week. You have to have this incredible focus on what comes next. We talked about arenas Evelyn, like a crumbling like that and her emotion getting the best of her. What she's gotten really good at in the last couple of years is breathing. And I think that's one thing to watch when you're watching the US open is watch what these players do in between points. Do they turn around
and yell at their box and kick themselves or do they close their mouth and breathe quietly through
“their nose? Because that's a whole key to the sport. Like, in some ways, it's the key to all of”
our lives. The only thing that really should matter is what you do next. Because the thing that just
happened, it's gone. You can't change it. You can't change it. And that is never more true than
on a tennis court. So what I really believe in and what I see from the great players and what they tell me and what they've told me that they've tried to do is to commit themselves to intentions, commit themselves to showing up as a certain kind of person on the tennis court. And to understand that you're going to lose half the points or nearly half the points. And you just got to win the right ones and win enough of them to win the match and move on to the next one.
Well, I do think there is something in there for all of us, inquiring the ifs. I had a tennis
“coach growing up who always used to say when any of us got in our heads to just smile and remember,”
tennis is fun. So I am going to be watching this tennis mat. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks so much for having me. It's really great to be here. Today's episode was produced by Alex Baron with help from Tina Antelini and Laina Richards. It was edited by Wendy Dorr. Production assistance in fact checking from Dalia Hadad. And original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lasano. It was engineered by Rowan Nina Stowe.
That's it for the Sunday Daily. I'm Natalie Ketrowa. See you tomorrow. This week on the wire cutter show, we hate to break it to you but you've probably been using
Your hair conditioner wrong.
Oh wait, okay. I'm so sorry. Say that one more time. Don't put it on your scalp. Gel put it on your scalp. Why not what conditioner is really for and how to apply it the right way. Tune in to the wire cutter show on the near times app or wherever you like to listen.
