South Beach Sessions - Governor Wes Moore

You're listening. (upbeat music) To draft games, not work. (upbeat music) - So if I take the W in West

and I make it an L, then I can have the campaign slogan of "Less is more." Less, do you like that? Less is more. I feel like you're just sort of.

“- Yeah, I think we're just taking a West.”

- Okay, we're gonna stick with West. It sounds like a list if I make it, "Wess is more, "Wess is more." He's West more, he's the governor of Maryland. And I'm thrilled to hear your sports fan.

I'm thrilled to hear that you're here. I was wondering why you'd be a part of this ram shackle operation. - It's because I'm a fan and I've been a fan for a long time.

The only thing I am mad about, I thought pipe would be here.

- Yeah, everyone's always disappointed

when one pipe is not around. I've always been surprised by the popularity of that television show and specifically the fact that my father stole it from him. I mean, he's doing it in his second language

and so many people love him and feel like they know him, just from watching him on television. - Well, we should know why.

“It's like, you know, I feel like for all of us,”

in particular, those of us who come from immigrant families, like we all have a poppy, right? There is that person in our life that really helps to lead us and mold us and guide us. And the thing I loved about what y'all did is,

you took two things I'm very passionate about and put them both on display, right? One is sports, I love sports. And I feel like in many ways, sports help to not just change my life

but just really help to give a set of direction to my life. And I love family. And as someone who comes from an immigrant family, someone who's grandmother was born in Cuba, raised much of her life in Jamaica,

came to this country, you know, with my grandfather, who she met in Jamaica and then they built a life here in the United States which also included helping to raise not just their kids but helped to raise me and my siblings.

It was, your show is really meaningful because it took a lot of passions and it put all into one. - Thank you for that, your, your, you lost your father when you were three.

Those so, was, did your grandfather sort of play that role? - Absolutely. - And you know it's, when my dad died in front of me at three, my mother called up her parents and my grandfather was a minister in the South Bronx.

My grandmother was a school teacher in the South Bronx. And you know, I say their house was barely big enough for them but they figured out a way to make it big enough for all of us. And when my mom said that she needed help,

you know, that house for a lot of us. You had that one house and your family that no matter what people were going through whether it was a breakup, whether it was losing a job, whether it was someone who was coming to the country,

that house was the healing bomb for the family. And that was my grandparents, you know, small home in the Bronx.

“And that's what we went, that's my grandfather really helped”

to take on that paternal role for me. And in fact, to show just how important he was, I was deployed in Afghanistan. I let soldiers with the 82nd Airborne when he died.

And usually they never let you leave theater unless

it's the death of a child, a sibling, a spouse, or a parent. But because he really did take on that paternal role for me, that was when the Red Cross got involved and made the exception to say, you know, that day. So that's how I got permission to go and bury my grandfather.

I have a lot of follow-up questions about everything you just said, but you said sports saved your life or changed the direction of your life? Absolutely. Well, because, you know, it was a few things, right?

One is when I first moved from Maryland to New York, I'm now in a new neighborhood, in a new place. And frankly, in a place that I was still getting to know, and this was the Bronx during the 1980s. And the place of refuge in for folks coming up in the Bronx

in the 1980s was the basketball court. That was where I learned so many life lessons, you know, about how folks interact with one another, about who it's trust and who not to trust, about all the rules and the laws of the neighborhood

and the community, a lot of them were built out from what happened on basketball courts. And so I saw the role that basketball played in my life, much through, you know, high school, et cetera. And then I found this passion for football,

which I never played in high school or anything like that.

The first time I ever played football was when I went to college.

It's a wide receiver. And the football coach came and watched me play basketball, a guy named Jam Margraff, who this year I'm very proud. He's getting inducted into the college football hall of fame. And he comes and he's like after, you know, after, you know,

“he comes out to me and he's like, have you ever played football?”

And I said, no sir, I haven't. And he's like, you know, you got good hands and good speed. And he's like, do me a favor. If it's okay, maybe after practicing tomorrow, once you come out and we'll have you run some patterns.

So I went out, I did the 40 R dash, I did a vertical league test, and I ran a couple of patterns. And then when I finished that up, he's like, what do you think about being a wide receiver? And that was my introduction to football, which really has now,

that's been my life long passion. - As a kid, what were you like as a kid like before you got, did the military sort of straightening you out? (laughs) - Oh yeah.

I mean, like I was a kid who I was a kid who had a lot of anger issues. I was, 'cause I was dealing with a lot. And I was trying to process a lot, right? It's like, you know, your dad dies in front of you when you're three.

Your mom has a really difficult time. You know, woman who's an immigrant from Jamaica, coming to this country, you're now living with, you know, with your grandparents and your siblings and your mom. And there's aunts and cousins and everybody all in the one roof.

There was a lot of anger that I was just dealing with. And I think it showed itself. And so my mom had been threatening me with military school,

“I think I was like eight years old, literally getting me like,”

you know, brochures and show me she was going to send me away and every year she didn't. But it wasn't 'cause she makes empty thrust. 'Cause my mother doesn't make empty thrusts. It was 'cause she couldn't afford it.

And finally, guess when I was 13 years old,

my mother thought once again, my son's having real challenges. I mean, I had handcuffs my wrist by the time I was 11. And finally, when she was like, I think it's gonna be another year, why I'm just not gonna be able to do it.

I found out that it was my grandparents who, with that home in the Bronx that they had, were able to help my mom be able to, to be able to afford that first year military school. And in many ways, that sending me to military school

really helped to save my life. - You've mentioned a couple of times your father dying in front of you, I don't have any memories from that early in life.

“Is that your first memory 'cause you were three, right?”

- Yeah, I honestly like, I only really have two memories of him.

And the first was when my mother had always had the cardinal rule

about putting her hands on women. And I think part of it goes back to her past where she's been in abusive relationships. And I hit my sister, I've oldest sister, I've youngest sister, I hit my oldest sister.

And my mother just lost it. And it was my father who helped to come save me. And it was like, you know, kind of here. And I'm after now talking to my mom about it basically. He's saying he's like, you know, this and he doesn't,

he's too young, he doesn't understand. And but my father really was my protector in many ways. And the only other member that I have of him was was when my protector died. And so it was something that still very much sits with me.

It's sad with me 'cause even when he died, like my mother tells a story about how even had his funeral. I actually went up to the casket and asked him if he was going to come with us. 'Cause I didn't understand what was going on.

And so I think as I got older, it just got more, more confusing. And I think that confusion just turned to a lot of anger. - How was the anger manifesting itself? - It was manifesting itself in the ways I was with other people. Violent.

They amount of fights I just got into. And I think what I did was I heard a lot of people who didn't deserve it. I think there's a lot of people who I think ended up becoming the recipients of the fact

that I was not processing this well. And I think it showed itself in my grades. It showed itself in the fact that, you know, I started picking and choosing which days were worth a lot of good at school and which ones weren't.

And unfortunately, I had a lot of educators who were enablers to it where they weren't let my mom know and they weren't, you know, notifying anybody. Because as I had one teacher who told me that the class worked better when I wasn't there.

And so I think that that continued to watch this spiraling of bad behavior.

And then finally, when my mom said, you know,

I'm gonna send you away. I first thought she was kidding. I was like, I know I'm a work harder. And then she's like, now you're going next week.

- And you were very young.

What was the culture shock like how long before you became acclimated? That had to be fairly stunning. - It was crazy.

“I mean, I still remember like that first morning.”

It was like 535, 45 in the morning. And they were all in the barracks or the place where we all lived. And they started flicking lights on and off, on and off, on and off, and they're playing

welcome to the jungle by guns and roses. So I'm in the song, but it's like, it's like, I don't know, I don't know. - So it's an aggressive early morning. It's a good morning.

- Good morning. - Yes. - And this is where they're playing welcome to the jungle. They're flicking lights on and off. They're beating trash cans with sticks.

And they're just screaming. - Get out of your racks, get out of your racks, don't, don't, don't, don't. So I am on, I'm in a bunk bed. My roommate, who's from Brooklyn,

was on the bunk and I'm on the top bunk. And he jumps out of bed and his, I just remember his legs are shaking. And he looks at me and he's just like, we gotta go, we gotta go, we gotta go, we gotta go.

And so I look at my roommate and I look at the clock. And the clock says, you know, 545 in the morning. So I look back my roommate and I'm like, dude, it is 45 and I said, tell him to come and get me right eight o'clock.

- 'Cause that she's ready to go on bed. Like this was an optional wake up call. - You actually said that? Where did you think you were? - Like this is an option.

So I literally said we had the snooze alarm on the military academy. (laughing)

- This was my first morning.

So he thinks I'm crazy. He runs outside with all the other people. - He's scared, he's down to shaking your nose. - I'm annoyed. I'm like, oh, it is.

I was like, tell him to come and get me right eight. So we're out, so he's outside. I just curl back over and I put my pillow over my head so I'm blocking out the noise. 'Cause noise wasn't for me.

- Why didn't you think you were here? - This was my mindset. Y'all mean? And then, finally I hear someone yell, why is all the one person outside this door?

So then my door, then I hear the door slam open. So they must have kicked the door open.

“And then they come in the room and I think it's my first start”

who's screaming and yelling and cursing at me and like, I kind of got my back to him 'cause I was curled over to block the noise out. So then I slowly take the pillow off and I'm looking at him.

And I'm looking at him and I say, man, if you don't get out of my room. I'm like 13, 12, whatever I was. He's like a high school senior. So I just remember him looking at me and smiling.

And he walks out of the room. And so my first thought is, this thing's gonna be easier. - Yeah, then I got, I'll stick it in the box, get them off. And then next thing I know, probably 15 seconds later, boom, door slam is open again.

And the entire Shayna Command walk into my room, all of them. And they just pick up my mattress. And they take it off the rack and they just flip it over. And then I just slam to the ground.

That was my first morning. (laughs) - So how long before you get acclimated, does the slam on the ground alert you to? Now I know where I am, I'm not gonna do that.

- I'm not gonna do any of that again. Like how long did it take for you to? - It still took a little bit. I mean, I mean, I probably, I ran away five times in the first four days

'cause they would always tell us they're like,

you know, there's gates around the campus and they would always tell us they're a train station, right in Wayne, right in Pennsylvania, where the school's, there's a train station, right in Wayne, if you wanna go, you can go.

So I would just take them off in the rougher and I would just run out of the gates and they kept on catching me and bringing me back 'cause I know I do what the train station was. I was just gonna go run up on the train station.

Maybe three nights in or four or four nights in whatever my squad leader comes up to me. And we call it room two attention, I'm saying it attention. And my roommate, 'cause of me, my roommate together. And he tells my roommate he says, "Get out."

I gotta talk to more alone. So I'm like, damn, I was like, "Whatever about this say, he doesn't want witnesses." Or what he's about to do to me, he doesn't want witnesses. So my roommate grabs this stuff, he runs out of the room

and I'm saying it attention. And he tells me to sit down. And he says, "Listen more, it's obvious you don't wanna be here." And quite honestly, we, it's quite honestly, we don't want you here.

So I've drawn your map on how to get to the train station and he hands me a map, like handwritten with like a legend at the bottom, like, pace counts. I'm literally looking this thing, like, dude, just handing me a lottery ticket.

“And I'm like, "Yo, now, I'll never forget you."”

You know, when you get out, let me know, we'll grab lunch, something. And that night, I had this whole big, great escape. And I left and said, "Good, bottom, I'm a roommate

And the map was fake.

“The map literally took me to the middle of the woods.”

They just were cracking up watching me doing donuts.

And the woods, looking for the train station. And that's when they realized that, you know, what, you know, if we don't make an exception, we're gonna lose this kid. And so they let me make one phone call.

And I call my mom, and I was just begging her, just like, "Mom, can you please come get me?" Like, this is not, this is not cool. And I'll do whatever you want me to do. Just let me come home.

And she's just like, too many people have sacrificed nor did for you to be there. And too many people are rooting for you. And it's not all about you. And you gotta figure it out.

- How long before you sort of found the gratitude for any of that? - I feel like I really started to better understand the system.

Probably I would say a month in.

And it's because I started to develop this brotherhood in this bond, where we need each other. And we relied on each other.

“And then eventually they gave me a little bit”

of responsibility. And like, and that's when the military started kicking in in a way that the military normally does, which is, it's gonna break you down as the individual, because they're gonna build you up as a collective.

And it started to work. And I think that mattered. But I would honestly say, I don't know if I had a full appreciation for how tough a decision that was for my mom to make

and how she had to sacrifice in order for it to happen. It took years for me to really, like, to tell her thank you, because she helped save my life. - Drifting sportsbook, then I'm a one sportsbook for live betting is built for March.

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action, klein-pise, cross-royed. - When did you take to the discipline? Like when did you start to like it? - You know, actually, and this is maybe where sports comes back into it,

where you know, when the discipline when it started to feel a little better,

was, 'cause I was always on probation,

so I couldn't really play sports, when I was younger. This was the time when like, my grades were getting better. My military performance was actually pretty good, once I just gave into the system. And I could play sports,

'cause it wasn't on probation anymore. And when people ask my mom, they're like, 'How's West doing?' She could say, 'He's doing well.' And not be lying about it.

And so I got a chance to play, that was eighth grade, so I got a chance to play basketball. I was MVP of my basketball team. I got a chance to play baseball. I was the team captain.

- Oh, so you start to get confident. You start to feel like you belong. You start to, you're not just a bad kid anymore. - Exactly. You weren't, you weren't this consistent problem

that everybody was just attacking and blaming. And where every classroom you walked into, whatever like that, they knew you before you walked.

“- And it's the first thing that you feel like you're good at?”

- Yes. Like I feel like I'm like, oh, wow. Like when I get on a baseball field, like I'm actually, I'm the team captain, like I'm a leader on the team.

When I play basketball, I'm the leading score. And I'm like, the people, when the games on the line, they throw the ball to me. And that felt good. And I think it's just something that feeds into,

not just how you do sports. But also, I had just like, that was a good feeling for life. That is like when people, when you realize that people are relying on you, whether it's your family, whether it's your friends,

whether it's your community. Like when people are like, no, like, we need you to succeed because when you succeed, we're all gonna be better because of it. That's like, that's dopamine, you know what I mean?

That's addictive. And I think it's just something that you then continue to put in the work because you realize that your, your necessary, and that matters.

It's a very difficult time to be optimistic. Yeah. You know, honestly, for me, I think a lot of my optimism comes from my understanding of history. Where it's a difficult time,

but I know this country has been full of difficult times. I know this country has been full of difficult times for my family.

“Where, you know, my, I think about my grandfather, right?”

Where, you know, some of his earliest memories was watching this country reject him when he is just a child and his father, my great grandfather, leaves the country because the Ku Klux clan runs them out and they go back to Jamaica

and from much of my family who've always said,

they know that we won't go back to the country. It's a reason why I still have so many family members telling Jamaica right now. And my grandfather, though, decided to come back here and he comes back, he goes to Lincoln University

historically blackology university in Pennsylvania, gets becomes a minister like his father, becomes the first black minister in the history of the Dutch reform church. And the threats that we're coming to his father

start coming to him because it's not like everybody was happy that he was making history in this way. And he stuck and he spent his whole life devoted to family and God and community, also optimistic. And also optimistic, in fact, this is a man who had

a deep Jamaican accent, his entire life and is maybe the most patriotic American I've ever met.

“And so I'm like, so what right do I have to be bitter?”

Amongst his first memories was his country rejecting him? What right do I have to be afraid when amongst his first memories was watching the clan, attack his family and then watching racist slurs thrown in him by members of the clergy

when he became a minister. And so I just think-- - These are all stories, right? You're not hearing them from him. - Yes, but you're not seeing it. - Oh, yeah, no. No, because all this happened before I was even an idea, right?

Before I was even a thought, like these are things that he had to deal with as a child. And then when he became a young man before, you know, as he was just having kids for good grandkids, that's when he had continually seized this bitter

and brutal face of racism that shows itself at him.

And he never lost his optimism.

And he never lost his belief in this country. And he always fought for this country and he fought for God and he fought for his family. And so these are the stories that I grew up with. These are the stories that were shared to us,

but they were shared not because they were looking for pity. They were shared to us because they wanted us

“to remember our strength and listen, life is not gonna be simple”

and it's not gonna be easy. And you're gonna have all the stuff that comes that life is going to bring you. But they'd God has prepared you for it. And that's the thing that I think my grandmother

and grandfather and everybody who came before me, that they wanted to make sure that we understood. Your story seems a bit impossible so when I give you that bit of history and I say, okay, he suffers that rejection

and then his grandson grows up to suffer both the indignity and the rejection of the president of the United States saying, you're not worthy of being invited to a White House dinner. How do you absorb that?

Do you absorb the insult in it? Does it make you furious? Do you look at the history and calm yourself? How do you manage all of that? - You know, I remember when the president

disinvited me from a national government as a association dinner where I serve as the vice chair. And I actually thought about my grandfather and what he would say. Where my grandfather always used to say,

never let someone take something away from you

when they never gave it to you in the first place.

And the president could not didn't make me a member of the National Government Association, the people of Maryland did. When they elected me with the highest vote count in the history of Maryland,

Governor-Torial Politics and made me the 63rd governor. The president didn't make me the vice chair of the National Government Association. The other governors did where Democratic and Republican governors pick into side and vote who should be the leaders

of the organization and they picked me. The president can't take my power.

And so, frankly, and I've told the people of my state

that there is nothing I will not do to fight for them. I will work with anybody. I will do anything in my power to make sure that my people are good and that they are protected and that their futures are secured.

And there is nobody who can take away a power that came from God or a worthiness that came from God. But it's meant to hurt you. It's meant to insult you. Does it not?

It's meant to insult me. But here's a thing. It's meant to hurt me and it doesn't because if it hurt me, it means that he won.

“I think that what he wanted more than anything else”

was for me to beg, was for me to feel slighted

and for me to attack and for me to, so I did the thing that not only comes naturally to me and the thing that comes from my family, my family's history, but also the thing that I know hurt him most, which is ignore it.

Which was understanding that, so when the idea is to go there and just to take these insults, the message that I sent to the presidents, very clearly, is, I don't have time for foolishness. And I'm not going to give you what you are looking for,

that if you know my family's history, you know we're built different. And we're not going to give you that one. - Do you believe he's racist? - I think it's a question for him.

I think it's something that he needs to answer to. And I think it's something that I would hope that the people who are close to him are asking him to be a little bit more self-reflective. I know his actions.

I know how his actions hit me and frankly, how many of his actions, especially when he did things like this and bite me, how it hit members of my community, how it hit many members of immigrant communities, how it hit many members of communities of color

all across this country and how they heard it and how they saw it, you know, I am the only black governor in this country. Not a title, frankly, that I'm proud of. I still find it wild that in the 250 year history

of this country, that I'm only the third African American

ever elected governor in the 250 year history of America. And I think there it is a bit troubling 'cause I know I'm not the third African American ever qualified. But I think the president has to answer that question

“because I think it's important for him to wrestle with it.”

And wrestle with the fact that why do so many people say the same thing? - But you can't just say yes he is right because then that gets aggregated. It becomes too absolute.

It's a tricky question for me. I don't think it's tricky. I think he is racist and I think he's also an opportunist about an opportunist above all else. And so he will take all the isms and use them

if they present him power, but you can't answer that question just yes or no, because it puts you in a bad spot. Like it puts you in impossible spot where now you're giving him some of what you just said you don't want to give him. - Yeah, and I think the weight of the questions

shouldn't sit on your back, it's just sit on his. The weight of the question shouldn't sit on my shoulders. I should be free of that weight, right? You should be free of that weight. All that weight belongs on his shoulders.

And he should be the one to be able to answer that. And I think that there are many members of our community and not just I'm not saying community of Americans and people who are here who they've got to wrestle with that question. I shouldn't have to wrestle with that question alone.

- You shouldn't have to wrestle with that question. - No, I get what you're saying there, I should wrestle with it. - I just don't understand how you come about summoning any respect for a man that not only is that, but also feels the way he does about military

or all of the things that has been reported about his disdain for the military. Like I don't know how it is that you summon, I don't know what your relationship is with this country at the moment.

- Yeah, you know, it's my relationship with this country

“is I love it, and that's why I'm willing to fight for it.”

And I know it needs healing. And I think that we all have a much shared responsibility to heal it. You know, if there's one thing I know about this country

You know, there's a great song by Donnie Hathaway where there's called a song for you, but there's a line where he says, I know your image of me is what I hope to be.

“And I feel like in many ways that's America, right?”

I know your image of me is what I hope to be, where we have and fulfill the greatest promise

of what this country hoped for when it was first created,

that it's still a work in progress, that this country I still believe is the greatest experiment in world history, yet it's still an unfinished, experiment if we're gonna live up to all of our great ideals. But I do think a lot about my family,

like a family who's willing to fight for this country, even when this country wasn't willing to fight for it back, a family that was willing to sacrifice on behalf of the hope of what America could be, even though for many of them they knew

that they might not see it in their own lifetimes. But I stand here as the realization, the realization, of a promise that for generations who made far before us, that they fought for the hope of us.

I mean, like, could you imagine for your great grandparents

and great, great grandparents, if they could see you now? That's a realization of everything that they fought for. I am the real, I am my ancestors wildest dream. - Yeah, it's so mine, you know? And that's a beautiful thing that they were willing

to sacrifice for something that they wouldn't see themselves. But maybe their legacy's would.

“And I think that's what makes this country worth fighting for”

and that's what makes us unique. - In my particular case, though, right? So me and my brother make our lives in the arts, right? Which is not something they could have fathomed, coming from a place that didn't have freedom,

a place they had to escape in order to get freedom.

So the idea of that is just the starting point on that

is on that. But what I'm presently seeing happening in America are the stories my grandparents told about how cube of failed to communism, when it felt like the stories are similar.

Neighborhood watches, you give power to certain people who don't deserve power. Now they are, they're ice or whatever else. Like the stories are, this is how this creeps upon freedom. This is what you're fighting in the military,

risking your life. It's to protect us from what is presently happening. Like it's obvious if you have any sense of history. - Yes. And that's the thing I want everyone to wake up to.

I was talking with a member of our General Assembly and who's a Chinese immigrant. And she's saying, this is what we escaped from, the things that we are now seeing, this administration doing. And I want people to wake up to what's happening.

When we're talking about things like the nationalizing of elections, or when we're talking about things like taking control of the voting booths, or we're talking about things like telling certain states that they need to redistrict, or when we're talking about things

like the voting rights act, which is going to be the largest ability to be able to take away black political power

“that this country has seen, like we have to remember,”

this is all very intentional. And particularly for those of us who come from immigrant families, it's just deeply familiar. This country and the joy of the experiment of this country was to say that what could it look like

if we could have a representative democracy that doesn't behold to a king or a familial legacy structure that could actually have people who had a chance to vote every two or four or six years, depending on the office, that we actually had balance of power,

that the legislative branch was not the boss of the executive branch or the other way around, that the judicial branch wasn't the boss of any of them, all them have distinct powers, but also there's checks and balances.

What could it look like if we could have a country that does peaceful transitions of power and said let's try it all out. And by the way, have a country that doesn't exclude people from around the world, but welcome to them

because they say they will all be part of our larger, glory and all larger grace. This country is such a bold and wild experiment

and this creep against it, when we're watching the administration is using the Constitution like it's a suggestion box. When we're watching our highest courts make decisions and the executive branch, pretending like nothing even happened.

Unfortunately for a lot of immigrant families, this is looking deeply familiar. - Well, I'm beyond exhausted, I'm overwhelmed. I'm consistently overwhelmed by a useful transition of powers, one of the things you said.

“There's no way that's what's gonna happen in 2028”

if he's still alive. So I'm scared that this isn't more overt, more obvious to everybody that this is an infringement of almost all American ideals. And that for all these people who are just sitting on their hands

and just moving goal posts and being haters and a bettors of this and coming up with every single reason why we shouldn't act. You know, I tell people all the time.

Like I'm always gonna fight for our democracy

and I'm always gonna fight for this country. Always. - But have you not feel defeated? - Because I know our history reminds us not to. Like, you know, I think about it this way then

where if you look at our state of Maryland, we have probably arguably one of the most complex histories when it comes to race relations, for example, right? I mean, like the Mason Dixon line runs through the state of Maryland.

Maryland is the northernmost southern state in this country. The bloodiest battles of the Civil War were not fought in Alabama or Mississippi. They were fought in Maryland, right? And Tidam was the bloodiest battle of the Civil War.

It's a home of Harry Tubman. It's the home of Frederick Douglass, right? And I think about what our state loan had to endure. And you don't have American history if you don't have the history of Maryland.

Like the country needed Maryland in order to heal. That's why our state flag is actually, it's a literally a contradiction. It's two competing ideas being put together, right? Because it is a union symbol and a Confederate symbol

in one flag, right? But I think about that in context of this moment. Because it's a reminder to me that we've seen hard times before, guys.

“And the only thing that's got us through before”

have been God's grace and moral leadership. That's it. And I just think that that's what's going to be necessary and required right now. So the reason I don't feel defeated is

Harriet Tubman never felt defeated.

Frederick Douglass never felt defeated. They spent their entire lives fighting for a better future. And so what justification would I have to feel defeated when the people who came before us never gave up? And so if they didn't give up, not there am I?

I would imagine though that at no point has by leaps and bounds at no point is your optimism in as tested as it is right now. Like these last few years. If I go back 10 years ago and we're talking, there's no way you could have fathom

that this is where the country would be. - Well, and it's just, but I think that's where it takes the introspection to understand that after the first four years of this administration, what happened

“that we opened the window to allow them to crawl back in?”

And I think that there needs to be a certain level of introspection that has to happen amongst society, amongst the Democratic Party, where again, I don't come from a political background.

And this is, this is literally the first elected officer

I ever held in my life. I don't come from a political family. So I'm not one of these, you know, like, oh, the Democrats this or the Republicans that because it's like that's not who I am.

- Your party is sort of preachers and teachers. - preachers and teachers, that has been my life. That's been my background for many members of my family. They don't, they are not die hard, anything. They are people who are like, you know what?

You got to convince them to vote because they're just not into this stuff. And that's very much my background, right? So I think that the Democratic Party honestly needs to have a bit of introspection about for all these people

who've been doing this for their whole life and the career folks who just go from job to job to job to job to job. Like, what was happening when you guys are in charge that allowed this to happen again?

That allowed us to have to go through this again. And now to have to think about what does the aftermath look like, but to somehow think that you can just wash your hands over the fact that we're here in the first place is just absolutely wild to me.

But I think even with that though, I know that we are gonna be tested. I'm a very faithful person. I think about things like, you know, the book of Job.

There was a natural testing that happened all

throughout the entire book. We're God tested Job. Not because God pushed him away, but God tested Job because he loved him. I think about, you know, the book of Matthew,

where Jesus, for 40 days and 40 nights, was sent into the wilderness. And was sent into the wilderness the entire time because he was gonna be tested. And when there were rocks there

and then Satan said that Jesus and he said,

“well, you should just turn the rocks into bread”

'cause you're hungry. And then Jesus said back and he said, well, you know, a man cannot survive on bread alone. And then by the end of the book, by the end of the book, you look at the fourth chapter,

where Jesus says to Satan, he says, "Be gone." And Satan left. And then God surrounded Jesus with angels. We know we're gonna be tested. Like as a person of faith, like that's part of our background

are training that God doesn't promise us simple. He promises us salvation as long as we stay faithful. - You said, "Be gone and they came back and turned the mattress over and threw you on the floor."

That was where angels, but how do we go? What were you dreaming about when you were in the military? It wasn't this, right? It wasn't like, what were you gonna come out and do? - Make it home, make it home.

And that's the thing, it's like when you're deployed, the only thing you care about is, am I gonna make it home and I don't make sure that my folks make it home? That's the only thing on your mind.

And I remember when, so when I came back, I was a White House fella.

And so it was basically it's a year opportunity

for you to serve as a senior level advisor to a cabinet secretary or agency in the federal government by partisan. And actually, nonpartisan. And I remember when I was deployed in Afghanistan,

my deputy brigade commander was a former White House fellow. And he came out to me and he's like, listen,

“I think you should apply for this White House fellowship”

when you're done out of this, because you're now spending a year seeing how policy is made. You should spend your next year seeing how, sorry, seeing how policy implemented.

You should spend the next year seeing how policy is made. See, you can at times understand, where's the disconnect between the policy we hope for and what actually gets implemented on the ground. And I remember kind of going back

and I kind of listened, but I didn't really fully process because we're in the middle of a deployment. And the deadline was coming up for the fellowship. And he calls it back and he's like, "Have you started working on it?"

And I said, "No sir, I haven't." And he's like, "Get working on it." Like, director, or get working on it. This is what you need to do. I ended up applying for it and...

- So it was no longer a suggestion. - It was like, this is a director. Get it done. So I got, oh, my essays done. I literally go on missions, come back,

start working on essays.

Finally got the application sent off.

And I ended up having my finalist interview probably weeks after I redeployed weeks after I came home, which was a total, that was an experience. Just trying to prepare as you're still very much emotionally and intellectually and transitioning back home.

But I'm really glad that I did it. And I'm really glad that my, you know, at that time, major, major friends, and then just retired as Lieutenant General. Why he made that suggestion?

- Because it was right. - Yeah, no, no. - No, no, no, no, no. - It was a suggestion. - This is what you're doing.

- This is what you're doing. - You very much ignored a suggestion. It stopped being a suggestion. - And then it stopped being a suggestion. This is what you're going to do, Captain.

I like, yes, sir, I got it. This is what I'm gonna do. - I have a number of followups on all of that. You've written a number of books. Does it start in there?

Does it start with the writing there? Were you writing before then? Like, taking up writing is not for everybody. - Nah, that's a good question.

“You know, it's not, and honestly, it's not my background”

because I really am more of a quantitative thinker than qualitative numbers come very easy to me. Words don't. I got to work a lot harder on words than I do numbers. - There's no proof of that.

(laughing) - There's not, I mean, you gotta be kidding me. Nobody watching this would say that you had trouble with words. - Words are, I mean, I really have difficulty with getting, I, these are thoughts and questions.

And also the thing about, for me, why numbers are easy, easier for me. Numbers don't have opinions, right? Numbers don't have a partisan band.

It's like, what is the data say?

“And the data can very clearly let you know”

whether you're on the right track or wrong track, whether you've got it right or wrong. Words can be fudged. Numbers don't lie, right?

And so I never had any background in writing.

I ironically, because like my mom was actually a writer. My dad was, and so when I first started writing and my first book was called The Other West More, and when I first started writing this book, in fact, you story, I was talking with my, with my editor.

And I said, listen, my mom 'cause she was real questioning whether I can do this. And I told my son, my mom doesn't think I can do this. She says she doesn't think I'm a good enough writer. That was unique for me because it was the first time

that I ever had done writing before. In that, in that way. But I found out that I loved it, and I really enjoyed it. And now even still to this day, I'm constantly writing and journaling, and because I feel like it's very therapeutic

for me, and I just, I also love the fact that outside of like academic work, the ability to tell your story, and the ability to have something to share with your family about the way you saw the world through your lens

and your eyes. I actually think it's a very, very powerful tool.

“- What did your mother say when you sent that to her?”

What did she have to, what was her assessment thing? - I said, I don't think she believed it, but I think she's, you know, she said when I first got the whole book out, and she read it, and she saw the response that it got.

I mean, it did well. I remember once she said to me, she said, well, you got it honestly, because she was like, again, this was not your academic training, but you got it honestly.

- What are the scars you wear from, from more? - You know, I think the thing about, I think one of the reasons that I am so skeptical of war is because I've seen it up close. I'm very clear of its limitations.

I'm very clear of what it can accomplish in a long term. It's the reason that I'm also very skeptical of things like regime change operations, and all that, I just think war is messy. And unfortunately, the people who have to execute it

are the ones who were never thought about

when the decisions are being made. I just really believe when a lot of these decisions are being made about Afghanistan and what was going to happen, they weren't thinking about me. They weren't thinking about the soldiers that I had to lead.

They weren't thinking about the corporals and the sergeants and the private first classes and how this could turn around and impact them and their families and their hopes that it felt like a bigger chess game.

And it's part of the reason because I've seen it up close. I think it's one of the reasons that I'm so, that I'm so cautious of it and skeptical of it. And I think that those scars, though,

are scars that I have, not just in terms of the things that we had to see and endure and the sounds and the smells. But also it reminded me that we have some pretty remarkable men and women who are willing to raise their hand

because this country asked, we have some pretty remarkable public servants who would be willing to give their life on behalf of this country if the country requested them to, that we do have the most amazing military

in the history of the world. There's not an assignment that our military couldn't execute. There's not if there is a person that our U.S. military wanted out, there's nothing that could save them, nothing.

“I also though think that's why we should be very careful”

about how we're using that tool and about what the impact is gonna be on the people whose job it is to actually to execute the operations because oftentimes the people who are executing the operations are not the ones who are making the decisions.

- How introspective are you about what might be,

must be, could be, and always should be PTSD

with life or death situations, or do you just, don't look there, move on, gotta get to the next thing if I spend too much time looking at that. What my trauma is, what am I doing? I don't know how you cope.

- I actually think that in many ways is one of the symptoms of it, is the people who don't take the time of the process.

and think that you came back unchanged. I just don't think it's, I mean, I could be wrong and I'm sure some psychologists could tell me

you're wrong and here's why you're just never gonna convince me

“that, I think that everybody who I served with”

we've come back changed. Now I'm not saying we've come back, it rapidly damaged. And even for those who have come back, I think that that's the reason that we want to overindex on the healing, because I do think people can be healed

and I've seen this firsthand. I just don't think you can ask people to go through what we went through and think that they just like, and everything's okay. And particularly where I think you'll find

soldier sailors, airmen, marine, co-scars, and etc. it marines, who will go overseas and because they come back with no physical injury, that everyone thinks it's okay. Like, oh, thank God you're back.

Without having a full appreciation of sometimes

the most damaging injuries are the ones that people can't see. Like when I came back, I spent time with doctors and I needed to. When I came back, I had, for example, I problems with white lights.

And like, anyone else that kind of would make sense, but I'm like, when you're an environment where white lights were essentially prohibited, because, you know, the reason that we use the red or the green, chemo lights, 'cause you can't see those from far.

A white light, I can see a white light from miles away. And so if you are in a, if you're in your fob, you're, you're forward operating base, and you've got white lights all the place, guess what? It's going, yeah, you have underneath everything

in your life anywhere you would go. So what I would imagine still is the undercurrent of white lights, the white lights are danger, like it's just embedded in there. I don't know how you bet that out of there.

That's right. And when you come back and you spend your time deployed, and then a week later, you're in a downtown area or you're in Times Square. And I remember, and I remember one specifically

Dr. Settis to me, he actually phrased it well, probably better than I am or phrased it.

“What he said, you have to give your brain grace.”

And he's like, you have to understand why this is difficult for your brain to process it. And you have to give your brain grace why going from coast to Afghanistan to Times Square in the process of a week might be a little bit a lot for your brain

to be able to ease back in. Well, I, I added a question because I thought it might be stupid to ask you, but as you talked about it, I feel a little safer asking this because you say you were changed.

So I don't know if the man who was changed got so good at the disciplines that his life and death situation became so normal that somehow, when you talk about the challenges of getting out, oh, now what am I going to do with my life, that somehow that would be scarier in any way.

I thought there was a stupid question. That's because, because how could it possibly be scarier than what he was doing? But the way you framed it made me think, maybe he did think that now he had to use his mind, his futures out front of him,

and now what does he do with his life? He's just been protecting it the entire time. And it's one of the reasons why when people talk about things like PTSD, people think, well, let me just

watch them for the first couple months.

And if things like that, okay, the first couple months and things are fine.

“He's like, no, guys, you have to understand.”

Folks are going to be wrestling with this for the remainder of their life. I saw, I saw people who seem fine. Years after the plymance and then took their own life in your four, where it's just like,

'cause you don't, it just, it just looks like we're not hurting. Without a full appreciation understanding of what it's like and then for particularly for people who are coming back into a world and coming back into a situation where the dynamics are just

different, your family needs are different. What how your kids respond to you is going to be different. How your spouse responds to you is going to be different. How your friends respond to you is going to be different. And for a lot of people also, when we,

and I think I see a lot within plymance, you're in a job while you're deployed, oftentimes. You know, depending on what your MOS, your specialization was, where every single day, you ramp up, ramp down, every single day,

every single day when you put on your gear and you leave the wire, it's like, and then when you get back, that's dopamine. That is essentially a human production of an adrenaline accelerant.

That you just, that was kind of the optempo for how you do your life, right?

spikes.

You don't have it anymore.

You don't need it. Every, when you go to when we're deployed and we're driving in a convoy, once the convoy's moving, you're just moving. We're not following stop signs or whatever like that.

No, it's like once you're once we go, we go, right? And then you come back home and now you're stopping your red lights. When we're instructed why you don't stop it red lights, when you go under an underpass and the place you enter

“the underpass that you have to exit the underpass”

in a different part. So no one is dropping things under like, and then but you're now you're driving on I-95 and you just keep going. For a lot of people, that is an addiction

that dopamine kick, it's an addiction, right? And if you can't find that addiction naturally, you're quitting cold turkey. You're finding it someplace else. And so I do think that's why for a lot of veterans

and why it's an issue that we've been very involved and I was very involved in this before I became decide for our side of run for office a couple years ago. And with now our administration and Maryland, while we've been so involved in supporting veterans

and making sure veterans are getting what they need and veterans and their families are getting what they need is because this is not a short term thing. This is a lifelong commitment we gotta make. - So how do you do this one

because it sounds like your environment, okay? When you talk about, well it just looks like we're not hurting.

Okay, the military's always wearing that disguise.

Men are always wearing that disguise. Black men are always wearing that disguise. So how do you manage when you're hurt? Is it yours and yours alone who gets it? Who are you capable of vulnerability, obviously?

But are you aware and introspective about being vulnerable given that you're entire training? You're in every thing that's always surrounded you, makes you hide her feelings. - What's that poem?

We wear the mask by Paul Lohn's Dumbar, who says we wear the mask that grins and lies and it hides our teeth and it shades our eyes.

“This I think this dead we pay for a human gole”

with bleeding and broken hearts, we smile. I think part of the way that I've dealt with it is I know what my triggers are, and I know what my healing needs, and I'm on a apologetic about it.

So like for example, you know people think part of the reason I'm pretty obsessive when it comes to my workout schedule. - Right, well knowing what you need is huge. Like knowing yourself enough to know

how you can self love yourself is enormous. - It's enormous and honestly it's like when you gotta make sure you protect it because if you don't protect it, other people will take it. And they're not being malicious.

They just don't know any better. And so when I say okay, listen, at 530, zero, six every morning, I head to go workout. That's because it's much mental health for me, and this is much healing as anything else.

Like you know, yeah, it feels good to go a lot of weights up and when they're like that. But it's my healing that when I say like listen, when I like kicking back and traveling or I like,

I'm always a fan of a good Cuban cigar.

It's not, it's not because it's a fun thing. It's like for me, it's my healing, right? When I, you know, there are things that I have and I do that I know I need and has helped me throughout my journey.

And I'm okay with that. And I'm gonna apologize about it because I know that if you were to continue to take those things away from me, you're not allowing me to heal.

And if I'm not doing that consistently, then I'm no good to anyone else, either. - I have to let you go unfortunately. I've got a million more questions married by an Elvis impersonator.

Like I've got a bunch of questions.

“If you want to, if you want to just tell us”

that you're gonna run for president in 2028, it would help the pod, anything on the way out that you want to give us is a gift. It was lovely talking to you though. Thank you for the time.

- I'll tell you what, man. I'm really inspired by you and I'm inspired by your family. I'm inspired by your commitment to your family. You guys are, you're the American dream. And for a lot of families like mine,

and then you know and you've inspired more families.

- That's very kind of you.

“I try to remind my father of that all the time”

that he doesn't know, even though we were on airport televisions and the sound might have been down, that he doesn't know where he connected with people if it was just a father, adult father and son

loving each other, clearly loving each other

on television. I will have no greater professional blessing than having done that with him,

“given where he came from and given what,”

given the opportunities that he provided for me because they made all the sacrifices.

It's not unlike, it's not unlike,

you don't get here, you can be tough. You can be somebody who can be a military leader. You just don't get here if those people weren't an uncommon kind of tough, tougher than you were.

- That's right. - That's exactly right. - Thank you, sir. - That's all, Papia. - Wonderful.

- I will. - Thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - It's almost over the stage,

also this school-flashback, just over the street and then, hopefully this is stimmt. - Paul, no, garney. This stage is my safe space.

- Mm, do you have anything to say? - Yeah, exactly. This stage is the stage of the stage which I just understand. Egalobstudium, job, or music.

- Caste. - Cras. - I don't really feel like it. - Steuern elected. - Safe.

- With visa steuern.