NTK: The Urgent Need for an Insurgent Media

Really? I think it's fun in my hometown.

“Steuere, how do you feel about the Steuere?”

Yeah, I've been coming to Europe for a while. Do you have any connections? No, just like Steuere. Wow, and that's easy. Of course, everything is automatic.

I really feel like I'm so exciting. Hold your money, take a look, and spend time with Visa Steuere with the best price. Wow, you're in the 3rd Staffer. A couple of years after the high school. I don't think I want to live like that.

Stream up to the 13th April, Parallel to the US, which is a new episode. That's a problem. And you're talking with your girlfriend. Give it a try.

Before I leave, I'll be in the second highlight as the House of the Dragon and Wicked.

All of the time, you're in the second highlight. Streaming, but not so, wow. This is Deep State Radio, coming to direct from our super secret studio in the 3rd Subbasement of the Ministry of Snark in Washington, D.C. And from other, undisclosed locations across America and around the world.

Hello. Welcome to Need to Know. I'm David Rothkopf. And this week is every week. We try to help you put make some sense of what's going on in the news.

And as you know, if you're a regular here, every couple of weeks, we like to get together with two friends who can put some perspective on how the media is covering everything. Because frankly, that's the lens through which most of us see it. Those friends are, of course, Jeff Jarvis and Dan Froemkin, who are prolific commentators

“on the media and social media and elsewhere, how are you guys?”

A massively depressed. Thank you. Massively depressed. Well, that's, that's new for you because you're usually the optimist here for again. So, good.

Good. Black. No, I just, you know. Why, why, why are you depressed? Let us help you.

I'm just, you know, the world is going to help.

Um, basically, but, I mean, that doesn't mean that there's an aren't some little, you know,

silver linings here there, which I will discuss just so I, this is your one, two, four. Yeah. Yeah, to stay positive. But let's, let's start with one story, which I find an interesting challenge for the media because almost every media outlet for the past few days has been talking about

a deal with Iran. Um, and this is interesting because as far as I can tell, there isn't actually a deal with Iran. Now, JD van said one was sign, no one has ever seen it. It's not supposed to go into effect for a few days.

What the US says is the deal is not what the Iranians say are in the deal. Um, and even the US version of what's in the deal is not really a deal. It's an MOU that's page and a half long.

It basically says we'll have a deal someday maybe or maybe not.

“And I'm just wondering, how do you think, uh, let me start with you, Dan?”

How do you, how do you think the media is doing in its coverage of this, uh, uh, ghost deal? Uh, not well, although, uh, some outlets are doing, you know, not quite as bad as others. Um, the, uh, the, the credulity with which this, this has been greeted has been really extonishing, the, the language, the, the, the, the piece deal language that, that the sense

that there is something, uh, really significant that has happened here, um, but, but, you know, the, the, any reporter with the sense of self respect is looking at this and alarms are going off because it's secret because they won't release the, this, this, this, whatever this thing is, they won't release it. And, uh, to me, that, that is such an alarm bell that I think some journalists are responding

to it. You are seeing some coverage in, in certain elite institutions like the New York Times, uh, while she general suggesting that this isn't really what it's cut out to be that, uh, that there, that there is, uh, that is, that is, it's, it's, if anything gets a surrender by Donald Trump, uh, to whatever extent it means anything at all. Um, so, so there, there

how they focus yesterday on the fact that it was stole secret and, uh, and, and now, especially

to this, we've seen a, you know, possible, alleged draft of it, uh, out on social media.

“It, it looks like, uh, it looks like a major surrender by Trump. And I think that's, that's”

going to eventually sort of merge in the media area. Yes. I quite agree. Um, and we'll come back to that and I want to stick a pin in your use of the word elite, uh, uh, Jeff. Jeff, how do you think the media is handling this? But David, David, it did its job. The mirror report of the mirror whispered the mirror hit it, but took the, and asked like a 3% yesterday. Hmm, job done, right? That's, that's the only point. Uh, I, I think, uh, yeah, you've

not done a good job with it. They've been credulous as this is their one these days. Um,

there's no deal. And, and even even the deal of deals would only be born negotiation for 60 days, uh, which, uh, Rand knows that they have them over the proverbial air, uh, oil barrel. And, uh, we're not going to have a deal nearly as good as what existed on, uh, nukes. And, uh, Rand now knows they can hold the role hostage at Hormuz. Good work, uh, good work. Um, yeah. It's, it's ridiculous. And then, then on the, on the important,

you know, pocketbook issues from Americans, I've seen warnings on TV where your gas prices won't come down right away. Uh, no, they won't. Little, little known fact about me when

I was buttoned nipper at an intern at Chicago today, paper that had no tomorrow on my

Chicago Tribune. Uh, I found myself by accident as the meat reporter on the 73 oil crisis.

“Uh, that's how old I am. Do you must have been at your child? I, I, I had no”

pubic here. Yes. I was very. Oh, uh, Chief, this place. And so, um, you know, I would call Plats oil Graham and, and understand how the oil industry worked in the gasoline market worked. And it's very complex. And this is going to take a long time to play out. And I only hope I think is that it remains screwed up, uh, into the midterms. Well, it it, it will remain screwed up into the intern midterms. Um, in fact, Trump doesn't really

understand how his math goes. He's like, well, we'll have this resolved in 60 days. He won't. And 60 days is the beginning, Rob Labor Day, the beginning of campaign season. And so, he'll then have to spend the rest of the campaign talking about how they haven't solved the deal. I mean, well, that young is going to keep bombing something. Well, yeah, well, this brings me to another interesting component of this story. Um, because among, I mean, we just

did a podcast, which I encourage everybody to go listen to, that has some nuclear weapons and other experts talking about what might be in part of a deal. And there's no way to analyze this where it is not as Dan said, uh, defeat the United States of Chief, not of its goals. And actually, in almost every single area that you can think of is worse off. And does now planning to pay a run to, uh, put a, put a bow on this thing, uh, in a way that's

going to benefit them and be harmful to us. But quite a part from the way this was fed out on, you know, over a weekend in the same way these stories are fed out. There was another story that was fed out. Um, and it's very interesting in me because this morning I got up. And as one does, started scrolling. And I noticed that there were three or four different stories about Trump falling out with Netanyahu. And I thought to myself, oh, how interesting.

Uh, I'm sure that's true. Every president falls out with Netanyahu. But, but, but, but, the, the, the White House obviously started calling people up and saying, you know, the president's not happy with Netanyahu. And, and, and, you know, I, you know, you guys are, are professionals at reading between the lines here. And, um, you know, yeah, the president blew up our relationship with Israel, uh, because Netanyahu won't go along with what he wants, uh, and

so what was supposed to strengthen that relationship and common goals may, may, may also be a casualty of this. But what about this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, the goal ability of the media to start saying Dan and Jeff, you know, you know, you know, here's your story. And they'll just line up and take it. Well, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a delicious story. I mean, uh, this has been one of the great, you know, buddy buddy

relationships of our time. And, uh, or, or slave master would have you, um, the, you know,

“I, I think, I think there's something to it. I think, I think we're going to be following”

the story a lot. I think you're talking about the, you know, what's going to affect the campaign,

to be significant. And, and then I also think that, uh, you know, the major takeaway from the Iran deal is eventually going to be that he made this country weaker, uh, that he, he, he's made

basically any threat of, of military action less credible, uh, any sense that that American

“power is dominant less, less believable. Uh, so I think all those, all those things will happen.”

I think it'll be, I'm, I, I, I, I think the Netanyahu drama's fabulous, like, I can't wait to see it. But you can't, couldn't happen to two nice or guys. There's no question about it. J, but Jeff, I guess I'm getting at something slightly different, um, or hoping to get it. Something slightly different, which is when I look at the media, and I see a story. I see somebody's finger prints on the story. Right. And so on a regular basis, you know, the past few weeks during this

war, Barack revealed a good reporter at Axios would run a story saying the White House has, you know, achieved this thing, a piece is at hand or the White House is going to do this or, or whatever. And it's clear to me on a regular basis, he's talking to them and then feeding a story. Yeah. And he's just parading it. And, and, and this is, this is what seems to have happened on this, on this thing. And I just don't think, Jeff, that people realize to agree to it,

the media's lazy. And they get fed stories and they run with them because that's easier than going and looking for something new. So the question then becomes, who does Axios invite to the,

had never should have been held in the first place, certainly never should have been rescheduled

White House correspondence dinner. Right. It's an access game. It's who gave Maggie Haverman tapes from the situation room. That's the way it operates. We know that's a way it operates. And, you know, people like Jay Rose and I have been through the time for years that we should just send interns to the White House press briefings because they're worthless. What fascinates me about this part of the story is where this is going to develop is that if anybody criticized Netanyahu

in the last year, you were immediately accused by the right of being anti-Semitic. And, uh,

“so now you have the presence pissed at Netanyahu. And I think that the golf is going to,”

no pun intended, is only going to grow a wider. And, um, so then what happens? Then the right

wing that has been so rabid in their defense of Netanyahu and Israel, uh, have to deal with a pissed off boss who doesn't like Netanyahu. And then I don't know what to say. And that in turn, I think has a dynamic on on the far left and in red races, uh, where criticism of Israel is now a vote getter. And I can, I can, I'll, I'll fear a part of that. I'll fear where that could go in the long run. But it's a really fascinating dynamic now as to how Israel plays into,

I think the midterms. Yeah, well, I mean, I think Netanyahu systematically alienated the democratic party for over many, many years. Yeah. And did so popular. Did, did, did, did, it's a pack, colleague. Yeah. But, but, but, but, but the Republicans managed to hold on to it. But now we might actually have them come together. And I would say, as a foreign policy guy, the, anybody who hopes that the U.S. relationship with Israel is going to look like what it

has looked like for the past several decades is, is going to be disappointed. So, so put yourself in the shoes of Barry Weiss, the greatest defender right now of Netanyahu and Israel, that firing anyone who dares criticize Israel, hiring everyone she can find who takes the side of Netanyahu and also against trans people. And, you know, it's going to be interesting to see the, the vice they get put in. Yeah. By the way, David, I mean, ask you, as a heterodox thinker yourself,

heterodox, as a heterodox, as a, as an orthogonal figure yourself, as Barry come after you for a job. Oh, I thought she wanted a diversity of thought. And that I don't think she's really

“interested in my kind of diversity. But anyway, you know, I think, you know, you bring up this”

White House correspondent center. When I saw that they were going to host this thing again, it made me want to borrow. And, and it's like, why are they doing this because Trump wants it, because Trump wants to be able to insult everybody he wants to show that he was strong because he was stood whatever that, that, that, what, I don't know what to even call what happened at that dinner was. And, to me, it's just ridiculous and offensive. But it's related to this broader

back to subject, we've talked about many times before, which is, there I was a book, the book has

revelations about meetings in the situation room. And these are substantially, you know,

“these are important revelations because they show a kind of recklessness with regard to the”

constitution, the United States, et cetera, et cetera. And they decided they weren't going to report it when it happened, they were going to save it for their book. And, you know, so again, you know, you've access journalism, and then you have, you know, self-interested journalism, and all of these things are impediments to regular people getting the news they need when they need to know it. No, that's exactly right. And, and access journalism also has another effect, which is that people

tend to favor whoever talks to them. You can almost read, you can almost see in a new story, like these, you know, Heyperman Swan pieces, who's talked to them because they're, they're more generous to those people. And that was obviously a, something that, you know, that Woodward did more than anybody, now Heyperman Swan has sort of inherited that, that mantle. I was stunned, you know, by the story of the other day, which led with, you know, actually what was a rehash of the fact

that that the White House had seriously thought about getting rid of Heyperman's corpus. And, and buried, what sort of in the headline, which is that, which is that vice president remains, actively wanted to impose the insurrection to call, you know, to get the insurrection act out, to to crush dissent in Minnesota after the Alex Predi killing. And, and he apparently acknowledged that, yeah, it would be a little ugly at first, but it would, but in the long run, it would, you know,

it would stop people from protesting anymore. And that would be a good thing. That, that, that, that is,

“that is pure, you know, pure fashion, authoritarian fashion. And, and I think they buried it in the”

story because I think France is one who's talking to them, but what anybody else. Well, that, this

is exactly the kind of analysis that I think these people need. I've always wanted to do like a podcast

to come, somebody called reading between the lines, where people who actually understand how this works, you know, when there's a, we talked about this, you know, when there is a, off the record quote at the top of a story, and then at the bottom of the story, there's some guy's name to they, then, flatter. And you go, oh, I wonder who it is. Or the people close to, so close it's the same person. Right. Right. Well, right. Well, exactly. And, and, and the, and the point is that, you know,

the, the, the, the, I mean, let me put it in the strong language, Jeff, and you can say you're

“very not, but I, I think the process by which journalists work, particularly in Washington,”

but not just in Washington, is actually pretty corrupt. And it produces a pretty crappy product. And this is included in, I'm going to go back to take the pin out of what Dan referred to earlier, elite publications. Right. Um, you took the word that I was going to say is corrupt. I think it's corrupting. Um, we know that for years, my, my, my ray of sunshine is it's all dying. Yeah, the best media are dying, and they matter less and less and less. You are, you are, you are a,

a starry eye document. I am indeed. Uh, and, and so the, the death of mass media opens the door for, I think truly independent journalism that doesn't have access, that doesn't count on that access,

and that also is out here among the people. Um, so I, I, I got the first time ever, I've been,

I've been using my broken times hashtag now for probably two years. I'm constantly complaining about the times the post and the, and the Murdoch journal for the first time ever, the time is responded to me yesterday. Oh, wow, because the times be art department, so it's a flag, um, because I had dared to say to criticize the times the elite times the non-sweddy non-jockey polo playing times for not playing the nicks victory, a top at home page, uh, the morning after. And, um,

I found out, I discovered later why they came to respond to me, it was because the New York Post was doing a story quoting me out of this. Well, the time is said, well, we had it on the middle of the night. I, I want to say one thing though, just just to add to it, because, yeah, this, this is how you, how you covered it, and I thought it was good. This is, this is a giant

in the street, and what you said was, if you're supposed to be a New York newspaper,

“then you're supposed to cover this stuff, and this says the times is not a New York. Yeah,”

that's been the case for years. They, they, they first had the ambition to be a national

patent newspaper, then an international newspaper, then a galactic newspaper, other too big for us. But the fact that New York is still in the title says that the elite had some obligation to recognize the story that's literally outside under, out there window. And, and to not cover that, is just bad news judgment. The cover of the New Yorker, the cover of a time, national publications are the New Yorker is even if it's named New Yorker. It's about the next. The next story was

everywhere. The next is a joyous story when we need it, and it was a great story to cover,

and they didn't, because their elites snob, it's not all stop there. Well, they, they are,

and, and we all know that from personal experience one way or another. But, let me sort of twist this a little bit, because I saw something else, Dan, which was some roundtable show, and I don't want to get into who would, but, but, but some people will know, who, I mean, when I said, this is some, some roundtable show there was talking about how Trump gets regular Americans, and the elite liberals don't. And, you know, this is this word elite

getting used again, and, and I was thinking, no, now wait just one minute here. Trump, Ivy League educated billionaire, surrounded by Ivy League educated billionaires, working for the billionaires, trying to take care of the business of the rich, is, is anti-elite, but Democrats who are trying to provide for average people to get healthcare or to get fundamental, certain basic services. There the elites, this is obviously a fabrication of Republicans

who want to hide their country club agenda, and are projecting, as they do with everything, onto the Democrats. You know, it's like saying the Democrats are fecteless economically, but every recession we've seen is under a public. The Democrats are fecteless in terms of national security, but every major military adventuring catastrophe we've seen has been under a Republican. They just do this, but this word elite is one that is a took trigger word to me,

“because it's, you know, it's, it's abused so often, and by the way, it was, I think it was a trigger”

for me, because I was writing a lot of stuff about how I thought the display in the south lawn of the White House was disgusting. And they're like, oh, you're an elite. Real Americans love, you know, events for billionaires where people kick the shit out of each other, and I was like, anyway, how about it? Our empfielder for your podcast, Frisches Obst and Knackiges Gemüse from Aldi, immer good, immer günstig, immer vielfältig, kurz gesagt, frische für alle,

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for listening. Now, back to the show. Well, I think Trump is not, I mean, yes, he himself isn't

elite, but he is so vulgar and racist that he has inspired this incredible undying support from

America and basically took the wrong lesson from Trump's victory. As you recall, I mean back

“back in 2016, or 2017, when he took office, I think the news industry should have responded”

by declaring a state of emergency if you're run by somebody who's absolutely incompetent and unfit. But instead, they spent all their time interviewing Trump voters to sort of humiliated themselves by saying, "Don't listen to us, listen to these Trump voters." And I think that continues to this day. I think that they really do feel like there is some integrity to this vulgarity. The good news is that the polls are showing this base of Trump's shrinking and shrinking and

I think that at some point, they're going to have to recognize that real America is the people

in New York City who were the incredible diverse, you know, positive crowd there rather than

rather than these these struggle diets. Yeah, when they don't ever get it, you know, they're like, "Well, you know, elite equals socialist. Look at Mom Donnie. What is Mom Donnie doing?" He's like trying to provide pre-cave for people and cheaper bus fares and more affordable rent. That's not the elite agenda he's taxing them. Oh, but David, that New York Times gave him a bucket of crap because he paid a thousand dollars for a standing room only, nosebleed ticket in the

rafters of the garden, which other people didn't have access to. Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly.

Meanwhile, Trump is in the owner's box following his sleep, paying not a thing, causing absolute hell

and havoc. The Times loves to go after Mom Donnie, Mom Donnie, in the return.

“Well, they go after Mom Donnie all the time. And you know, why they go after Mom Donnie?”

Because the New York Times is a vehicle for the interest of the elite against everybody else. Yes. No, I think the Mom Donnie coverage shows you what a new organization can do if it finds someone, you know, suspect and unfit for office. And that's the way they should be treating the whole Trump who, who instead, they they normalize, they they quote without cabinets. And mean, the way that they're not saying that the way they treat Mom Donnie is is really a model,

but it's an example. Well, yeah, I mean, except it's unfair. But Jeff, I see Jeff as reach for a book. And usually what that means is Jeff wrote a book 30 years ago saying this was going to happen. And this is the segment of our show called, I told you so, by Jeff Sharp. Well, no, this is the, this is the Jeff quotes, Honour Errant, of quoting from the book in which he quoted her, so I couldn't plug the book.

Orgents of the militaryness, it has the lessons for the age. Yes. So in the Gutenberg front, this is on sale now, including audio book. The name of the book. Well, that one is the Gutenberg front, but since you asked my new book, hot type is available now for pre-order. I just recorded the audio book. A fun book, I'll send you a copy. Hot or goodbye.

My most people don't know, but hot type is Jeff's nickname in high school. Anyway, a public high school, I want to quick to add. So, Errant, I'm reading from my own book here, was careful to observe that it wasn't just the masses who followed Hitler and Stalin. But it was also the elites. There was senators and judges in business like this, who, and I quote her, did not object at all to pay any price, the destruction of civilization,

for the fun of seeing how those who had been excluded unjustly in the past forced their way into it. It is a spectator sport. And no, it's not an analogy to what happened on the White House law.

“As I think it was the Washington Post tried to argue, that's an analogy for nothing.”

A metaphor for nothing, I mean, but it is the elites who see the destruction of democracy as something they can view from the mountain top. Well, but there's another component of it, Dan. And I think that the component of it is actually with links, Donald Trump, and Mom Donnie, and links the 2016 campaign, the 2020, 2024, it will link 2018. And that is this. Most Americans feel our system is rigged. The reason they feel it

system is rigged so the people who have the most can protect their interests and have the most power,

it's not a fair system anymore, it's not a equal opportunity system. And so what do you do

“if you're saying the system is rigged? Because that's what people respond to. Trump said that,”

you know, and they said, "Well, he's an outsider. He'll fix that." And Mom Donnie, they said, "Well, he's an outsider. He'll fix that." Well, who do you blame it, Emily, that there's only one person peak group. You can blame it up. And it's the elites. Now, you can call it a variety of different things. And John Ossoff, the senator from Georgia, has been pretty smart and calling it the Epstein class. And I think that's, you know, but it's going to be the dividing line. And so

media organizations that play fast and loose with terminology like this are playing fast and loose with what will be a core issue in the public debate around which the future of our democracy is going to turn. -This does to the elite, is what you're saying? -Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can't take it face value, Republican or Washington or Wall Street assertions of who's in elite or, you know,

“or, you know, and that's why there was this reaction to this UFC thing where people are like,”

"This is Trump connecting with real Americans." -Hey, pay per view, by the way. -And by pay per view, you know, for the Ellipsen billionaires who are his billionaire friends, for Dana White has sent a millionaire friend. For, you know, I mean, it was completely run. By the way, there was a poll that showed only 16% of Americans thought it was an appropriate use of the White House property, but elites are not the proper ones to judge who's in elite. Right, that's the

irony of this, is that I turn a list don't see you. -I went to Ivy League school. -I think I could tell. -And I grew up in suburban New Jersey and I'm going to lead and I'm telling you, I'm not in the lead. -Well, look, I think the, the, the, the, the journalists against it this is, is, is to follow the

“money. I think that that money is is the way that the elites corrupt everything else. And so I think that”

it is very relevant to look at, you know, to explore the absolutely mind-boggling extent of the corruption of the Trump administration and by extension the Republican Party. And at the same time, realize that the, that the, the Democratic Party's establishment is supported by an awful lot of corporate money. And I think you're going to see the rise of, you know, these outsider Democrats running in primaries and, and, and becoming, you know, the candidates. -Well, or outside or anybody,

I mean, I was listening today and Brian Camp was seeking an outsider to run for the Senate seat in Georgia because he felt only an outsider could, you know, have a chance because outsiders tend to do pretty well. -But I do think, like, people like Osloff and Chris Murphy are, are doing a pretty good job of, of criticizing the, the, the system from the inside as absolutely. -Yeah. No, I think, I think, I think, look, I think that's absolutely right, but I love

particularly given the substance of our conversation. Then you said follow the money because as I believe I've told you, I attended the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism for one semester before I dropped out. -There was the hardest semester, though, they all say, that's the hardest semester. -Yeah, the hardest semester. -The hardest one. I had written my thesis already, so the fact that I left to take a job was profoundly stupid because it's only two semester school.

But the very first day I showed up into class, I had this professor who was like the name,

the one guy you wanted to have as your professor, a Melvin Mentcher, and Melvin Mentcher was kind of the guru of the school. He scared a lot of people. There's a short little bat. And the first words out of his mouth were follow the money. And he said, "What you do is a journalist, whether you're covering a school board of the president or a corporation or whatever, is you follow the money." And I have to tell you something. I could have dropped out of the second

day of journalisms because he had delivered the core message in the first five minutes of the first class.

And the reality is most journalists don't, or alternatively, in the case of Maggie Averman

journalists. -A lot of them chase the money. -Right, look at Barry Weiss, look at all of those people, right?

“-Well, I also think that's follow the money right now. And we have the obscene IPO of the”

apparently worthless in my few SpaceX built on government contracts for rockets and government subsidies for the cars and the satellite services subsidized by the government paying for said rockets, right? One point, one trillion dollars, supposedly. You have IPOs from

ethyropic SpaceX, OpenAI, Google, and reportedly meta, each going after 80 billion dollars.

So you have an incredible concentration of wealth there. I'm going to show off again here. -As I read the other day in deep sight, a really good essay by Gary Diaz about progress. -After 80 minutes? -Well, I'm a little helpful Google. I'm a doucheous light as the ash left. So I got a little help when I wrote a whole post about it. So when I translated sections, I said Google, how am I doing here? -Yeah, okay. -All right.

So, but it was an excellent essay arguing that looking back to the industrial revolution, the progress and our no-to-progressivism came out of the industrial revolution and the gilded age. All of the inequity that existed then led to the progressivism as a movement, led to the eight-hour workday, led to the welfare society, led to health and welfare and work.

And so on. And the problem is, who's defining progress today? It's the AI assholes and we can't

leave it to them. And by we, I mean, people on the left, I mean journalists, I mean academics, I mean podcastblathers, we're down kind of in the weeds. And I'm not talking about how, well, the Democrats have to have a mission to speak to the working man. I'm not talking about that.

“I'm talking about a higher level thing of saying, what do we want to be as a country again?”

It's been torn apart. We have to rebuild it. We have to rebuild it for a vision and that vision has something to do with a notion of progress. The progress is not just having mythos being able to find security holes in code. And Dan, it goes further. Each one of those public offerings that Jeff just enumerated is something that is, you know, basically a triumphant of marketing, not a triumphant of revealing underlying value. SpaceX is a money losing company.

That has one of the great con artists of all time running it. And because so many people are going to make money off of the public offering, including big investment banks and then the people who depend on them for advertising in the media and so forth, that this is somehow come off without a hitch, a plus trillion dollar offering. And a company that's losing money, that it is an entire

promise is based on things that not only have not happened, but never happened. And it's now worth

more than Amazon. SpaceX is worth more than Amazon. And you know, you talk about failures of the media and by the way, these rich guys were able to rig it so that everybody with a 401(k) is investing in these companies and is dependent on it. And so, you know, like if we go and tell the truth about SpaceX or these other offerings and they blow up our retirements disappear.

“Don't because so that, you know, they've like got us by the balls. That's how the system is written.”

And the journalists who write for the Wall Street Journal and the right for these other places, frankly, aren't really telling the truth? No, I think the biggest story is that in this new gilded age of ours, the rich people have so much cash. They don't know what to do with it. And so they're looking for, you know, that's why the stock market is in the same territory, despite the fact that the economy is in terrible shape. That's why these ideas are taking off.

People are desperate to put their money somewhere, rich people. No, that's why art markets are high. It's why a signed copy of hot-type by Jeff Jarvis will soon be going for many multiples of its real inheritance. Anyway, yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

is the big story of SpaceX and of Elon Musk. And of America.

“And America, right now. The big, I'll tell you, I'll give you one last question. I'm writing”

something about this now. But the big story in America right now is that American capitalism has practiced for the past 50 years. It's failed terribly. But some place our civic debate has taken on theological qualities and their variety of places. Like you can't say

the military fucks up all the time because that's unpatriotic. It's almost never seen article.

Even though once again, the military, the richest in the world, is just attacked another small country and failed. In Iran, as it did in Iraq, as it did in Afghanistan, as it did in Vietnam, as it has for 50 years. But we can't write about that. And the same is true with capitalism, which is driven in equality to record levels and concentrated power in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And so I've seen like two weeks ago, I saw the economist with a cover story.

The kids today like this socialism thing. These crazy kids. And it was just one of these cooked up hit jobs from a bunch of, you know, that originated in some country club conversation,

which was like, we've got to go after these bomb donies and these others. Because they're,

you know, the socialism threatens us because they want to use the product of the shared economy, the help ordinary people and not make us trillionaires like Elon. And you can't, you can't write about it. You can't write an article that says American capitalism has failed and socialism is better. You just can't. Well, especially if you spend your whole life writing the opposite. And that, that, to me, is the big drama of the elite media, which is that they, they can't

ever change their mind. They can't, they, they, they can't change their tone. And they should have went to office, nothing else. But they, economically, that's their brand. And if they change their mind or change their tone, they sell out their brain. Right? I mean, that's part of the problem. Or that's where the access journalism comes from. Yes, no. I mean, I think the readers of elite journalism are nevertheless, you know, not, not that, I don't think they necessarily

subscribe to that, that theory. I think there's, there's, there's fed it. I think, I think New York

“times readers are very aggressive and liberal by a little by a large. Well, that's, that's what”

I've written about a year ago on the Columbia Journal's review. The point is the times once to say to those readers, you don't own us. See, we can piss you off regularly. Right? That's, that's how they, that's how they define their, their, their honor is by attacking the left. Yes. So, pardon me, this is not intended as a plug, but I am going to go to a story that that I write about in hot type. The great New York tribute. Oh, an early, early background. I'm doing a

shit. Always be so. I'm a capitalist man. I'm always selling. Oh, I was, I was be selling.

Oh, so the, the great New York tribute in other Horace Greeley was a progressive newspaper. And along came the villain of my tale with law read, who could this, really to run for president, he lost and lost so badly that he died a few days after his defeat. And he stole Greeley's paper out from underneath him. Greeley is that his dying words, and some stories yelled you, you robbed me of my paper. Um, and who, uh, kick, uh,

I'm our work of the dollar out of the company he started, uh, work of the dollar all the time. My point is that what, what, what, what law read saw was that come the mechanization and industrialization of print and media, come scale, that you had to have capital and equity to win. Before you could have the equivalent of a podcast, you have a circulation of a daily paper in the US was 4,000. You could have a printing press. You could be Ben Franklin

for, for two centuries afterwards. But come the industrial revolution then come its entry into, into our business of media, capital one. And the same thing is happening today with AI right now. The note, Coach Love said in that essay I quoted that the capital is going, the money is going

“to go to capital instead of labor now. And so that's why we have to reconsider where we are”

as progressives in this society, uh, and we need a new progressive movement. Yeah. And by the way, you know, you're absolutely right to point out the progressive movement was born at the

were born before that. And Karl Marx marks. There you go. We knew you were a colleague,

“Rothcom. Well, you know, that that I think Karl Marx is going to enjoy a big combat. Absolutely right.”

Absolutely. Because the reality is what he said when you just said, yeah, which is he was talking

about the marriage of capital with, uh, the means of production. And today, you have the marriage of capital with technology. And those people will have more ability to create more wealth, more rapidly than anybody else. And because our society is set up to give them more political power, more power in the judiciary, more social power, it's up for it. They will gain an ever tighter chokehold on the way things work. And the rest of society will ultimately be enslaved. So

hair Marx, do we need a revolution to counter that? Is that what it's going to take? What of one sort or another? I mean, the reality is the system as it is set up now in the United States is bad

for the vast majority of Americans. And the number of people who benefit from it is shrinking.

And there are other better systems. And this is, this is all that Mab'Dani and, and, and, and and other, uh, let's say democratic socialists and others realize that if you go to Europe, your health care is paid for your education is paid for, you have a retirement, you know, the streets are clean, people are happier, and all the budgets are balanced. And, and, and, you know, that there are other ways to do this and sort of this American exceptionalist

view that we're special because our system is better. Is something we've got to toss over, but for, for literally the past 150 years of US history, if you say anything, I just said,

you're called a communist anti-American and, um, you, you are not just shut down, but in some

cases prosecuted. I'm, I'm actually thinking about sort of changing my journalistic focus to the question of, uh, sort of political discussion for the next two and a half years about about how,

“what is progress? How do we, how do we fix Trumpism? How do we get beyond it?”

And, and that would inevitably address these issues that are so significant like in community quality. I think a lot of smart people are, are thinking about this. They're, they're various think tanks and groups and so on. Uh, they're, they're quite a few, uh, political leaders who are not, not the leaders of the Democratic Party, but, but who are, who are starting to say really interesting stuff. And I think there is an alternate vision that could exist. I think that, uh, if you see a huge,

anti-Trump turnout at the midterms, um, if you see a rejection of Trumpism, you know, in the next presidential election. And if there is an intellectual sort of, uh, backbone for, for what, what would come next. And I, I think we could start turning things around. Yeah, but Dan, you know what we're going to see from media, I think, through what, but, when you go, when, when, for the last time you get invited on a, on a network, um, you know,

CNN before it became a state media or whatever. And you say that, you're, the argument, you're going to get not from the crazy, right? The argument from the media people is, oh, don't, don't, don't know, that's kind of being extreme. And people really want the middle. They want the center. Where is what's going to win? And by the way, so then you have Congressman, like Tom Swazzy, who two weeks ago, as mentioned in the Washington Post said,

he and one other guy, that he wants centers to all sign onto a pledge, that they are capitalists,

“and that they are against socialism. But I think Dan, you know, you should write about this.”

Yeah, you should, because that, that relationship between the media and progress is not a simple one. And that the establishment media is a reactionary force, a force to impede progress in maintaining the status quo. Exactly. And the insurgent media, the grassroots media, the kind that Jeff was talking about, can be a force for, for change. And frankly, if, if, if the founding fathers had existed in a time where required that much capital to dominate the public debate,

we probably wouldn't live in the United States of America today. And so that tension. King had the capital. Is a big, is a big thing. And, you know, I want to continue this conversation in the future. But I also look forward, Dan, to you getting equal time, you know, Jeff is holding

But, but I expect in a year you to be holding up the Froomekin manifesto.

Yeah. And, and, and, and talking us about this because Capitile 2.0. Well, yeah, but, you know,

“I think there is a huge media part of the story. It is this, what is the role of independent”

media, and promoting progress? Even, I would now, Dan, and this is part of me back, insurgent media. Well, Dan, I think, and I think there's also insurgent technology. By the way, I did translate much of that Diaz column, Dan, which he will enjoy. You can read about it in my places. Um, because I think, I think it's looking, a lot of the messages,

“I think, I think, the messages within the Pobes and Cyclical about technology was also about media.”

Was also about forgetting the sense of humanity. And, and I think that, uh, amazing figure right now.

Yeah, and an amazing document, a really amazing document, uh, about being progressive. And so, I think it starts to come together around the, you know, these empires of media and technology, which, which are the lines between them are fuzzier than they were. And, um, the power is to the media is losing his power. Technology is gained that power,

“but we need insurgency on both. Yeah, and I've got that. It's super interesting because I think,”

you know, you go back to Gutenberg, and it's related, weight of fuck. The Gutenberg versus the Gutenberg parentheses. Well, you know, but Gutenberg is clearly related to the rise of the middle class, because all of a sudden full formation could be distributed more broadly.

Well, literacy itself, right? Yeah. Um, got to finally somebody had written about that.

Anyway, look, um, you guys are great, and I find these conversations stimulating. And I know our listeners will, and so we'll continue them across, uh, time and space. And I look forward to talking again and again. Thank you for having us. For now, Jeff and Dan, thank you for everybody else. Thank you very much. And we'll be back with more of this here. It need to know and also across the way at the DSR network. So join us for all that until then. Bye bye.

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