Right Now with Perry Bacon: We’re in the Midst of a Massive Attack on Black Political Power

Naturally, a caravan rast-chettel from Herways and Tankon rast.

Kids Eat Free! Now, let's get to the 9th of 2019 in our restaurant, and our kids will be coming to a Kids Box, with Panjetten, Henchen, Phileas, Pommes, Getrank and Möyberraschong. An online caravan rast-chettel, Infos, Hotel Name and rast-chettel D.E. Chicken, I'm the host of the New Republic Show right now. I'm joined by two great political scientists, Hakeem.

Jefferson is at Stanford University. Jake Grumbeck is the University of California, Berkeley.

It's happening for them just barely either on the west coast, but they're joining us today.

And you know, these are two people I really enjoyed talking to with it. We're talking to them at a time that's not that great, you know, literally about an hour ago. Tennessee voted to sort of eliminate their majority black, congressional district, or seeing Alabama, South Carolina, much of states talking about doing that after the Supreme Court really last week, further gutting, almost, you know, invalidating the voting rights sex.

We're going to talk about the fallout from that and what it means for black, or presentation. So thanks, guys, we're joining me. Thanks for having me, Perry.

So, Hakeem, just talk about that first of all, like we're talking about, I'm in the gate, man.

How did the gate go ahead?

“The, you know, watch, you know, I think the question I want to ask people is, oh, yes, you all,”

specifically is a Lito Robberist, the Supreme Court is basically saying that black people are Democrats. So, Jerry Mandarin is, is about partisanship and so it's fine if we give it all to black and racial districts. Those are just Democrats and the Republicans won the majority of those states. They get to draw the lines. So, why does it matter that black reputation goes down in these states?

I mean, thanks again for having us, Perry. I'm going to let Jake, because Jake had some insights that I thought were just right on the money and the PC wrote. So, I'll let Jake talk about the sort of foolishness of the courts thinking when it comes to partisanship and race, given what we political scientists.

“I think Anna brought public know about the overlapping nature of partisanship and race in the US.”

So, I'm going to let Jake set the groundwork for that, but at the top, you know, the money rights act is perhaps the most effective. It's not one of the most effective pieces of legislation and the country's history, right? It's sort of post- Civil War, amendments were meant to enshrine these rights for black folk, but we know across the American South in particular, there were these attempts to burn in the franchise for black people. The voting rights act comes along and helps to ensure that black people got to enjoy access to the ballot without the burdens that lots of local jurisdictions tried to put in front of them.

And so, it just so happens I've been reading this work by political scientists Katherine and tape. And she early on was thinking about what's the reason that we might care about a black political representation? What does it matter, right? And so, we have these expectations that black representatives who descriptively represent black constituents, the constituents might have preferences, might have priorities that differ from their white counterparts.

“And so, we might expect, for example, that if black representatives have experiences, life experiences that align with black constituents, they might prioritize issues related to criminal justice, right?”

We might remember, for example, the leadership that many black representatives had in the aftermath, this will solve a long ago, to trace our Martin's death. The hands of George Zimmerman, it was black representatives who really put out the clearing call about whether a young black man wearing a hoodie, should confront death in the way that Travelling did. We might have expectations that black members of Congress are going to be better advocates for issues like criminal justice or for various redistributive programs.

So, you see, and the Senate, for example, black women really holding Secretary Kennedy's feet to the fire when it comes to access to vaccines or maternal health, black maternal health. And so, we might expect that descriptive representation comes with some substantive purchase, right? And so, the decline of black representation not only is a slap in the face to, you know, the progress made for multiracial democracy,

And that matters to them, materially. We followed the one one question about, so today, the district that was eliminated is in the map of Syria.

“The representers name is Steve Cohen, he is not black. So, talk about that and that kind of is to help explain why that's a loss as well.”

Yeah, so when when Congress passed the voting rights act, and we talk about black folks having the right to select representatives of their choice. That choice needn't be a descriptive member of the group. It doesn't mean that it's often the case that black folks who are voting for members of Congress given residential segregation.

And the like perhaps that choice would be a black representative, but sometimes the choice is to have somebody who has substantive priorities and interests that are lined with theirs.

And the context of American politics is, I'm sure, Jake's going to lay out even more eloquently. And the context of American politics that means for many and most black folks having the opportunity to vote for a democratic politician. Having substantive numbers such that there's support for that candidate can get them over the finished line, but I think it's a really good opportunity for Jake to lay out even more clearly the way the partisanship and race are so intertwined and American life. Great to be with you guys. Thanks, Perry, for organizing this conversation.

I'm always great to be along with a friend and collaborator and unfortunately, you know, in serious school slightly to myself, how can you just otherwise excellent to see.

And I think that's right, and like just to continue on Steve Cohen and Tennessee as like a candidate of choice of a racial minority group, that is central to voting rights act section two, which just got cut in Calais on by the Supreme Court. If you have a candidate of choice, it can be like a proxy like it's more likely to be a member of that racial minority group, but Steve Cohen is a long serving popular representative with a majority black constituency. He's a central eastern European Jewish guy like in ethnic background.

“But he's sound like you should quickly YouTube. Yeah, yeah, that dude is like Memphis, you know, like, you could be like, oh yeah, like 90 eight bowling MJG and 36 Mafia and Steve Cohen, it like actually he's been time around some black people.”

Yeah, it's you. So he's a candidate of choice on in this way of the black community of the district, but taking a step back here, let's think about what the, you know, Hacking said spoke about the voting rights act as one of the most effective pieces of legislation in American history. It's also the culmination like Hacking mentioned it's the enforcement of the reconstruction amendments after the Civil War, the 1314 to 15th amendment 13th amendment ban on slavery 14th amendment equality under the law, which is really codified in the civil rights act of 1964.

That that goes on and then we're in the birth rights citizenship. Exactly. And birth rights citizenship, right? So the 14th amendment says, unlike the dread Scott decision of the Supreme Court before the Civil War that said black people can never be citizens. This says you're a citizen when you're born in the US, you are a citizen birth rights citizenship and citizens and all people on US soil are entitled to equality under the law right to do process during of your peers. Right? You, your people have to be able to serve on juries too. That sort of equality under the law, which is violated by Jim Crow eventually the civil rights act of 1964 and that and the 15th amendment is no ban on voting on the basis of race or previous condition of servitude.

And the Jim Crow voting laws violated that. It wasn't until the 1965 voting rights act, the crown jewel of the Civil Rights movement actually enforces the 15th amendment and to some extent the 14th amendment as well.

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That said, the voting rights act of 1965 has different sections section five of the voting rights act was the pre clearance section this said former Jim Crow areas counties and states.

“If you're going to change your voting laws or redistrict, you're going to have to like pass that through the US justice department and at the time under Obama when this is being litigated air colder as attorney general get to say.”

You know, you're thinking about changing your voting laws, is this going to suppress votes is this some sort of, you know, small version of Jim Crow yet to review this with us.

The Shelby county 2013 Supreme Court decision and section five with a similar logic John Roberts says like, you know, basically racist and over section five is done no more pre clearance.

We see a wave of election law changes by state legislatures and the changing of sort of voting procedures, purchase of voter rolls.

“The things you know as voter suppression in the 2010s comes after the Shelby county decision.”

But then section two what it says section two is the vote dilution provision that says that's mostly about redistricting and it's been sort of interpreted in subsequent judicial opinions there's a standard and that standard is what we talked about so it's that you. The racial groups and particular racial minority groups have the ability to select their candidates of choice and that they're not blocked from voting registering to vote and then voting for those candidates of choice. And then the district system is not set up in a way to constantly have a racial majority group usually white people, but it depends on the place block those candidates of choice through overwhelming voting against them.

Either at the primary or general elections such that those candidates of choice of the racial minority group.

Get to be an office that is the standard of section two the Supreme Court in Cala ended that. Now what are what's the long term ramifications of ending section two here and when we think about redistricting. Partisan Jerry Mandarin that is a state legislature who controls district and this is very unique in the U.S. system state governments draw districts and determine voting laws for the most part within the you know within the voting rights act whatever the Supreme Court says is. Something like the voting rights act which is congressional legislation in the constitution so that's unique around the world.

“As long Ben legal you can actually say we are setting up this map to maximize the seats from from my party and minimizes seats of the other party the only thing you couldn't do is racially Jeremy.”

In that partisan map racial minority groups that votes code better kill here at community able cohesively for candidates of choice they repeatedly choose candidates that they support in majority please right. You can only take office so you can only partisan and Jerry Mandarin so much is the point the racial voting rights act section two blocks like the extent to which you can Jerry Mandarin by saying no black Latino Asian American Native Americans in cohesive communities has to be able to elect their candidates of choice with that falling away what we now have is in the especially the U.S.

It's not that you can absolutely do republican gerrymanders without having to think about the many hundreds of thousands and millions of black voters electing their candidates of choice this allows more extreme republican gerrymanders and it's going to allow more extreme democratic gerrymanders in blue states. So that's the outcome in the biggest casualty is black representation for the parties it's going to mildly help republicans but democrats can gerrymander more effectively to now so it'll even out a little the big casualties black representation to some extent Latino representation in other parts of the country but mostly black representation in the south is the casualty here for the long term down to talk about it.

So many more of ex of this. The blues they're probably going to say explain the blue states could reduce black position I don't think I fully is what you're saying it's way that a little bit. Yeah, so in blue states you know there's less racially polarized voting because the racial groups tend to vote more similarly there's still racial differences in voting in blue states but in a state like Illinois black and white lives. More a bit more consistently there's still big differences like hockey and say different priorities but it's not as different as you go to a deep south state it'll be 90% of white people vote one way 90% of black people vote another way.

If you want to maximize the number of blue seats in a state what you want to do is get every state to have 50% 1% blue voters and make the Republican voters like have no ability to set seats what that does is that does top up. Cohesive racial groups more than otherwise would so I would say it's not going to be a it's nothing like as significant as the hit to black representation in the south but we will see a little bit of an increased ability and we'll see how democrats play this and how the maps end up but the idea that now you don't have to worry about you know racial minority groups just opens up the types of maps you can draw on for the basis of partisan goals.

“So they're the Supreme Court is ignoring race or this are part has partisanship or I guess do you view that yeah I guess the question is like are they pretending race doesn't exist or are they saying party is the thing that divides us today.”

That's right so I can sort of alluded to this so a big part of the logic of the ruling is they're saying now to prove vote dilution under the voting rights act it's not going to be a really near impossible standards you're going to have to say. In places where it's just democrats or just republicans we have to find that the white and black people and Latinos and Asian Americans and Native Americans votes systematically differently right including in general elections like in the south. That's basically saying like you have to hold constant control for a party and find racial differences systematic racial differences in voting even within the same party in places that are very polarized by party also and by race like in the deep south.

That's basically going to say like you found the two white lives in the deep south some county that tend to vote with the black people in a democratic primary and because they're kind of voting with the black people that's like we have to ignore all the 90% of white people voting against the black candidates because they're from a different party.

“The logic is is is wacky but you can see where it comes from their theory is that like somebody votes on the basis of race or on the basis of party right.”

And that historically like there are partisan forces and their racial forces but that this is a like pretty common misconception so in people's own development and of their own politics like when you are growing up like I'll ask you guys when you're growing up in coming of age politically and deciding which party do like think represents you more which party do you take like maybe there's a lower level office you don't really know what to control but you see a deer or next to their name.

How did in adolescence you come to think of like which party represents you better.

“It has something to do with race civil rights, legacies of the parties representing different racial groups.”

Race and party are not the separate thing race drives how the parties organize themselves and how people identify with the parties. So it's not a control for party story it's actually that party is a mediator or an intermediate step for that reason this control for party thing sadly when I like other political sciences have really you know played into that that is a fundamentally.

You know problematic and.

Just fallacious way to think of the process of partisanship and race throughout history. And we and we I mean we see it in all the structural ways that Jake is Jake is laid out and in terms of vote choice but we also see it when we when we try to explain.

Party ID so I'm just thinking here if you were to run you know some attitude no models and you're just trying to explain variation you know and and black partisanship or white partisanship.

On either side you're going to see relationships between that partisan outcome and racial attitude so in the case of the case of white Americans for example and perfect though it may be.

White support say for the Republican party or for the Democratic party is what they think about black people.

And so what we scholars call their their racial resentment attitudes and on on on the side of a black folks.

“One of the consistent predictors of a black support for the Democratic party is identity centrality that is how important is being black to their identity.”

And it just provides some empirical support for this point that the that Jake was making which is that.

When black people think about you know people people sometimes try to try to oversimplify black support for the Democratic party is though black folks aren't making a real. Well a calculated choice here of course between two imperfect options but when when when when many black folks think about.

“There's a poor for the Democratic party it is because they perceive.”

The imperfect it is the party that most it vences black interest now we've seen declines and and the level of a black support for the Democratic party. But these black folks still aren't overwhelmingly running to identify as Republicans if anything they're putting the Democratic party ID on ice. And part because many of them perhaps especially some young people are concerned that the party is not advancing black interest so it's just to say that we can't think about. The party's in choice or outcomes related to parties in choice without thinking about race even as the Supreme Court and all of its decisions these days once to convince us that race doesn't matter all of the sort of.

Survey evidence and the likes that we have would suggest otherwise.

“And I think it's worth saying yeah I was just going to say that like in the Trump era like it's not like it wasn't surprising that Trump to got more Latino voting.”

And the Latino vote it's not not surprising that black support for the Democratic party in 2024 is like at 90% whereas for Obama was in the mid 90s you know there are some fluctuation and we it's not on like it is interesting that like white support for Trump is at 60% whereas like for at some elections white people supported Republicans if the high 60% but think about a 60 40 election. If a president won 60 40 that would be like that's the landslide of the century you know 20% gap you know and we're saying it's so direct like there's first like the levels of actual racial sorting and electorate are like just actually high and raw terms like even though it's interesting that the presidential candidate who said Mexicans aren't bringing their best the criminals and rapists got you know a solid you know 45.

45% of the Latino vote is very important to understand at the same time 55 to 45 is a big gap you know it's still very racially sorted electorate and furthermore what how can you said that so on point is even if there's a little bit of deracialization and the electorate with you know racial groups not being quite as sorted into the parties as before you know it's still very sorted racial attitudes are more predictive now. Then ever so Latinos who voted for the Republican party recently tend to be the racially conservative Latinos the most predictive think for naturalized immigrants.

Immigrants that became U.S. citizens and now vote the most like predictive survey questions is the racial resentment index saying hello new Asian American voter naturalized Latino American. What is the most predictive attitude it's do you think black people are poorer than white people because they're lazier and don't work as hard or because of discrimination your answer to that question is the most correlated with your vote choice so racial attitudes more related to vote choice. Even as groups change and when people like are shocked by that and saying how put more Latinos voted Republican in 2024 than before so it's not about race I'm like you haven't met a lot of people of color if you've never heard people of color say other people of color lazy like especially a different group of color like that is.

I'm like you've never been in the barbershop. You have net like that is just so central to how people organize their total society like even people like color.

It is probably is life in the case will have a house majority that the Democrats control in in November will also have Tennessee have zero black representative South Carolina maybe have zero Alabama be down to one losing in the two so what does it look like. Because on some level it's better for Democrats you better for black people or black people support a Democratic house with that way. On the other hand black opposition will go down so okay I can talk about that effect is like if we have a Democratic Congress control Congress that has fewer black members.

“No James collaborating leadership, but it's still the Democratic Democratic majority Congress what is that house that everything is if the majority would have been of the pre VRA with the section five and in line so.”

Yeah, I mean one of the things that we know from the descriptive representation literature and again not to hot the book again, but I've been reading it so stop in mind, but it's a little data now and I don't have. I don't have evidence from more recent years about this, but one of the things that take observes in this work black faces in the mirror, which is I mean talk about relevant it's about black representation one of the things that she observes and the second part of the book where she's thinking about.

Black evaluations of of of Congress. Is it black people have slightly more positive views when they're represented by by black elected and again I want to have that by saying I don't know if this holds up in the contemporary era, but I mean I think that's the we know this from the descriptive representation literature is that people. I'll perceive institutions as more legitimate as Sarah as more likely to give them outcomes that they desire when they have descriptive representatives now I do want to do a caution and I know this is a group of us who likes some complexity nuance that.

The representation isn't the end of be all of of what people need right like it is not the case that mere descriptive representation gives good material outcomes you know I live in Palo Alto not too far from San Francisco with was a district attorney who is a black woman who very proudly supports you know tough on crime policies in the like. But I think what we will observe is a continued decline and black people's perception of the legitimacy of political institutions namely the Congress in this case as their representation declines and and I think at some level will observe this and the kind of levels of advocacy.

“That's what we observe that is your family in the Clyburn district.”

Yes, yeah, yeah, basically like is what does that look like when the when the whether you like Clyburn or not he is a black voice for that community what do you think that we think that's the impact of that is itself because he is he's likely to lose up until he has seen his gone as well eventually. You know, I have so many so many memories of of Jim Clyburn being very present his is his system law that for a small time was my piano teacher I quit piano though he was recently on campus and he and I took a photographs together and and and I mean you know.

The way that this stuff works on the ground is people just sort of know know the guy I mean you know I don't think that people are following.

“All the sort of machinations of what he's up to, but they perceive and I think they're right about it that they've got a powerful representative who has a draw that is familiar to them.”

Just by by sense of his similarity has their interest at heart and I think we forget that you know people contact their members of Congress for any number of things and the perception that.

You can be in touch that one can one can reach out when they're struggling with this sort of ordinary stuff of life.

I don't know that we have great evidence of this empirically but you might expect that that the clients when the person is different from you even if that person has otherwise similar.

A broader polity is impart a function of how much they see themselves represented and the sort of governing bodies of society and so I think you know.

A Congress that has fewer black representatives, fewer people who look like Jasmine Crocket or Jim Clyburn and the list goes on is a Congress that will have an even tougher time convincing black folks that it's so legitimate political institution that is advancing democratic goals.

“So we're in like Jerry Mandarin season right now Jacob you back.”

And I want to talk about black representation on how Kim's last answer.

Sorry my my iPhone overheated but I would love to jump in on black.

No, I just wanted to say so when we think about the congressional black caucus and black representation in Congress right now. We have to think about the triumphs and the serious limitations so the triumphs first when I think about you know so on my mom side of the family so my grandfather was out of the Chicago defender like the. Preeminent black newspaper in the mid century getting very good martial on to the Supreme Court under L. B. J. was the triumphs of this life like that reporting on it and being like a hack pounding. L. B. and the democratic party through the black press to get their good martial on the court.

Everything and then black congressional representation represented the end of American authoritarianism and apartheid in the south to have majority black era states that are 30 40 and above percent black.

“First black representation since reconstruction right like since the northern like union military under Lincoln occupied the south and said you have to allow black voting for those 12 years this is a triumph like and still to this day.”

That generation in my family is very interested in descriptive representation very and it is a Trump they remember the days before that where you know that's where things like even bill Clinton 1992 going on our scenarios a big deal like in terms of like it was so new. To be represented as your whole person in that way. culturally linguistically the idea that black people are human beings to deserve represent it like this was so basic such a triumph. And then I got to say the limitations though so let's say we see like how came said it's descriptive representation student representations not a perfect predictor clearance Thomas was a key figure behind.

The role black of rollback of black represents so that's the first is it's not perfect predictor it's actually a quite imperfect predictor and the republican party has changed a lot where they know this and they've run increasing number of maga black candidates that black people do not vote for but it scrambles the brains of descriptive representation differently second young black Americans are not as interested in black representation they're not as interested in descriptive representation as the boomer and gen X generations.

“Generations were and beyond that the silent generation and returning better black veterans and so forth and that's in part because they see.”

The parody and representation now black representation in Congress is proportional to the black population it's a triumph but it has not delivered material equality the racial wealth gap is greater than it's been in. Centric you know this is. The the precarity of the black middle class the fact that the 2008 friends on this destroyed half a black family wealth. Things like war and imperialism that young black Americans see and they see a similar logic of racial hierarchy and imperialism and colonialism around the world like these are things that this is a reason why.

Age polarization and democratic party primaries is big among black voters black young black voters and older black voters very differently in democratic party primaries. We need to listen to these young black people who are very central in black class matter and had a different orientation. It's like a different wave of black politics.

That's the second thing the third thing is we have to be real about this the congressional black caucus.

Black representative in Congress are 10 of the 15 oldest members of Congress and have very serious health issues and they do not have successors even if the voting rights action to state and they have these black districts.

They there is not a generation lying in wait that they have cultivated and it's in some cases become a very personalistic.

We've been in a safe district that is not always aligned with the interests of the black community more broadly.

And black Americans are the most let this you'll get this twisted because people try to do this like bait and switch and planetary they'll say white liberals self described liberals or white democrats are sometimes to the left on some policy issues of black Americans but they do this it's only if you subset white people to like. If you pull off the left most white people they are like somehow to the left to all black people on average and it's like no but if you actually look at racial groups in the US black people are the left most on every issue criminal justice on downward and we have to remember this.

“Friamers book on holy alliances was about black because of this are captured constituency in the democratic party and if that's why swing voters are doubly valuable in these states but a black voter whose their choices democratic party or bust.”

And not a credible threat to the party in the same way and just saying here. This is a thing where we actually have to demand the most from black representatives and not give them a pass because of descriptive representation and this is a moment where.

With gerontocracy and with aging leadership and a new authoritarian moment we have to ask these representatives to really step up.

Okay so we've had we're in like a gearing mandarin festival right now where Virginia moved to make eight eight other nine districts democratic even though.

“There's a closely divided state I think Florida is going to be twenty four to four and now move it's a Tennessee will be eight to zero or nine is over again which one. Are we saying that. A gearing mandarin state.”

That is democratic and gearing minister to the republican are we saying that there's what happened in Tennessee is different than Florida or Virginia because they're killing off black districts specifically and targeting that is that qualitatively different for you all than was happening in. Well it's doesn't they might be gearing man to like Montana or not if they gearing man to all white and republican state or a democratic state is this is this is this is fundamentally different because of the majority black districts in the history we're talking about.

I think this is more in Jake's wheelhouse, but I'll just say this quickly that we signed on now what feels like a long time ago.

The public letters in fact we let public letters and support of legislation that was that was just we can this ability to do this kind of gearing mandarin period.

“I mean I think no one thinks that this is good for democracy to have this kind of you know gearing mandarin happening whether it's happening from democrats or whether it's happening from republicans.”

So I just want to put it on the record that my own politics and if I recall could Jake side on and help to leave the lead the letter writing campaign to convince democrats to advance his legislation. I think that we're in a we're in a bad equilibrium for democracy. I mean this kind of tip for that what games there is what is expected. I'll just put on the table. I don't think that the argument is that any form of this is good for democracy. But I'll let Jake take the particular particular of the question. No, that's right on we so HR1 that big democracy reform in the democratic congress the post ALC squad election 2018 comes in their first piece of legislation HR1 that's why it's called house resolution one was in you know democracy reform.

So the John Lewis voting rights act stuff and stopping voter suppression and and more resources for election security and blah, blah, blah and also a ban on partisan gerrymandering because congress can just say no state no state can ban or no state can just draw districts and a partisan way that's near the voters of both parties. That's obviously good but without that you don't want one sided warfare right like an arms race where both sides are doing it gives an incentive for both both sides to say let's both stop this with new rules on both of us so still support that that's coming back into the agenda.

The same time I will say yes, there's something different historically partisan gerrymandering is incredibly consequential some of those dobs decision that allowed states to ban abortion. Those abortion bands in some states are only sustainable because partisan gerrymandering gives a minority of voters typically in more rural areas the ability to set the majority of the state legislature over the will of a pro choice majority of voters in order to ban abortion.

At the same time, there is something given the long struggle over American democracy has been centrally about black representation and voting rights.

Black Americans have been the Vanguard like any push for democracy in the US has been the Vanguard has been a black democracy movement had that has provided the voting rights exception to benefits all types of groups right just like the civil rights benefits weight women and all types of things like that. Black American movements on this and black Americans if you survey Americans the only constituency who place a priority over things like voting rights and the rules of the game of democracy as an issue in and of itself.

Not just to get better tax gas prices and stuff it's black Americans so there is something really special and really consequential about ending that voting rights act.

The first thing that I'm trying to do is to try out of black representation that paid off to this is no ordinary love shot day was like it to you know basically these black movements were really about you know it's not an ordinary movement it's actually a movement that translates into.

“The democracy and equality for everyone and that's that kind of unique thing in world history and that's why every movement around the world emulates the black American civil rights movement of the mid 20th century.”

I want to say very quickly as Jake was talking I was thinking about a conversation that Jake and I had just this past Friday and person where it was thinking about you know just the magnitude of the efforts. And we know it's targeted at weakening black political power and you know we're in an industry and a discipline that at times is seem to lose focus on on that is the objective and so you know our discipline is often political scientists. Often you know all in prey to these arguments about you know well this is what our idea to do this thing is affected out of that thing and and the bigger goal has always been to undermine black political power and we of course we hear some scholars often scholars of color and black scholars in particular.

“Using that language to describe these efforts small though they sometimes seem these efforts but I think what this moment really you know forces me to think about.”

What it is we're observing and I think Jake is exactly right like this is such a clear attempt to undermine black political power and we think about it that way right.

Asking does the voter does voter ID law impact turnout it just seems like the question because it's like the attempt to suppress black turnout in the first place is part of a larger package of a long standing attempt to undermine black political power and so if anything. I hope the moment gives to scholars and practitioners a different vocabulary or maybe an old vocabulary to describe what these folks are up to.

“Let me close with this subject is that you all both talked about this idea of black political power and we are watching a.”

Supreme Court a administration and really we've had like five years but I guess the question I'm getting at is it's not that I don't view that as a partisan project is going to be the only because I watched so many universities eagerly you know. Kill off any diversity initiatives they had and they seem like they almost wanted to on some level I watched how many you know liberal columnists were eager to attack in from kindi you know in a sort of pile on so in some ways like. If you all are saying we're not we're seeing black political power up a push back against black political power.

Isn't that one going to win because it includes white democrats and all white republicans and most white democrats any are a lot of white doing is I'm concerned that. All racial conscious policy is being eliminated and I don't see that ending because it seems like that is supported by all republicans and many democrats. I think we're in a long winter I mean I think this is a long winter of racial backlash at all levels across any number of institutions.

In other ways liberal white people and white conservatives when it comes to race so often in the language of of racial preference or racial advantage or the perception or the perception that.

“I think what it demonstrates is what black people and people of color broadly sort of know if only by way of experience which is that.”

Race is one of these peculiar areas where things like liberalism can fall to the wayside and it does mean it does mean that you got this sort of weird coalition of folks who are at least on the fence about how explicit. And that does make me nervous I mean you know I think if we were to if we were to advance legislation and the Congress most white democrats would support legislation that protected blocks civil rights and black folding rights but I think it is telling that among the white public race is this area.

Race is this area where you see some degrees of compromise that might worry us. I would say you know thinking about the ups and downs in history of this including students the voting rights act is very instructive and the civil rights act where in the seventies we know the stories of the attempt to actually integrate schools including in the north. And through that implementation was different then just to ensure the civil rights act in private theory black people can join the schools right that's one then we had actual affirmative action and affirmative action debates including.

Quotas and like actual saved speech spots like the equivalent of like any cat parking spots but for black people are for women you know or for native American individual like. That was battled over then it wasn't quotas that was ruled on constitutional then it became about can you have take into account. Things like racial experiment experience and things like that identity miss experience and a setting you know getting into schools or jobs or things like that a preferential contracting.

“In public contracts all of these things have been battled over the thing that I think we missed look is that there's some things that won't back slide that far right.”

Yeah sure affirmative action can try that that'll fall back that whatever the basics of the voting rights act especially section two is not something I had on my bingo card where as we had seen a lot of back lashes to. The equivalent of much more like materially substantive di essentially like real affirmative action so what I'm saying in this racial backlash that we're in this sort of anti-wokeness and all this.

You know stuff within firms within law schools and every you know all types of institutions the first thing is that that was like you know.

Whether racial progress in 2020 is rolled back like that's one thing and I think that's a big thing we didn't know.

“Or I didn't think it would back slide this far.”

Yeah I was about to say who's included in this we I mean yes yes yes I mean this is once clear that you can break like once. I mean he's in John Robert's in a leader like oh good since white liberals no luck about diversity anyway we can go a little further I mean I know they would. They should try to break voting rights down their entire lives or they're not denying yes. I would I will say.

But Jake you don't know Jake you take one second one second.

Yeah because you know Jake and I agree on about 98% of everything so you know we need a little bit of friction here and so I'll I'll Jen up some friction only to say. I agree only to say only to say that this is the natural this is the natural logical in state I mean all of this is about power which I know my brother Jake understands that. But that that the D I walk back the fight so we're all this stuff and places like the ones we have at universities.

About discursive power they're about social power they're about the power and the board rooms I mean and and the voting right side is and the like are just about a different domain of power but for me the the through line is that this is always a question of who gets the wheel power and the given domain and so we see all these white folks you know including some.

“White Liberals saying that yeah get rid of get rid of all this talk about diversity and and all this stuff about black people and all this you know.”

It's a logical next step that they are not as on board as we might want them to be with the essential and a black political power and there is nothing that in shrines the right of black people to wheel political power in this country more than the voting right that and so this is just a natural in state of this housecape.

And so I'm trying to advance white political power at the expense of black political power that was my genning up a fight with with my brother Jay agrees with everything I just said of course.

Yeah I would say to this like.

“I like that take I think one is to you know I do think in will 2.0 under like a couple advancements are one understanding that people call it like I think you know this is a conversation we've also had.”

You can define like you know sort of white politics as including of non white people to like in this way that's a one way to square that circle.

Like white like in my travels around the country I've started to know so we all know that like the white liberal in mind I think you're painting is the one that symbolically what was kind of supportive of some stuff that you know doesn't actually want any material changes anything. You know and has a signaling sort of thing and a sign of like in this house blah blah blah but doesn't actually want to live next to black people doesn't want to go at their kids go to school blah blah blah blah blah I also think.

When we think this through that is taking over where I see an actually somewhat like when you go to different parts of the country those places that are much more racially sorted like I talked about the blue areas. We are viewers and listeners tend to be in metro areas when you get outside there I saw what it was when you go to places in the deep south where if it's not maga and it's political it's all black people and you see a white person some like that white person is in a different place like it's so it's just really interesting and I think.

Some of them to more recently think how different it is I'm you know from the bay and live in the bay area and how different that politics is where it's like no white politics is very clear in those areas and like you're betraying white politics by you know going there in a way in these sort of liberal metros it's not the same so it's just a broader context of where we're at now.

I think that's right. And build in these how these coalitions are built and things like that and like how we understand.

“These racial coalitions I think that's just important and I think right now like racial politics you know.”

The real thing is like racial politics just incredibly predictive like there's just some ironies of this time you're in racial and index you talked about that the democratic party got more. Left on a lot of things over the 2010 race being one of them and civil rights but also to some extent like Biden was more pro labor and. And an affluent white liberals like voted in larger numbers in the suburbs like it's a very interesting thing that like. And you know we saw a lot of stuff and not substantive depths to this but also like just we're in a fascinating uncertain moment this isn't to push back on anything.

Yeah, much as to just say like the future is that can't be very interesting like I agree on a very volatile and we don't even know how to the extent they'll send. They'll do some real backsliding on these next elections and going forward and we don't know the district yet and Louisiana like Perry said earlier Louisiana is canceling an ongoing election with. Tens of thousands of votes already cast to draw its district to eliminate a black district and redo early election with less black representation.

It's like this is so volatile like I want to send that message to we have.

White folks you know marching I believe it was up the state house steps and that sort of thing.

“I think this point about volatility is so key Jake that we just don't know how this stuff is going to play out.”

One of the things that I will say is it's so interesting to observe. You're talking about some of this older leadership in the like in these different periods of American history. It is so interesting if we think about the march that got us, you know, at least played an important role in getting us the the voting rights act of 1965. I mean, another feature of the black politics cannon that we both alluded to is just the way that political incorporation has changed the nature of how black politics is expressed.

And so you know, I already talked to Katherine Tates, black places in the mirror, but the other books that I'm looking at on my desk is our book from protest to politics. What it means that black people and black political elites have been so incorporated into party politics and how just changes the nature of the way that black people demand rights. So that's all to say like the Supreme Court just undermined, just defamed the crown jewel of the civil rights movement of the 1960s by voting rights act.

“If we were in a different period of time, black political elites would have responded, I think differently you would have seen or much more animated response.”

And I think one of the things that is really stood out to me is that. And of course, I'm exaggerating, perhaps for a fact, but what stood out to me and the aftermath of this. The very consequential decision from the court that is so about race and black political power is just the weakness of black political elites in this moment.

Like you just don't, and maybe I'm looking for something that mirrors, I mean, like here's what I mean, Perry, and maybe I'm looking for something that mirrors more.

The moment out of which the voting rights act came and maybe that's a foolish thing to look for. But I think I'm looking for something, and I'm just at my court, just an ordinary person out in this political world, I think I do want greater expressions of of of anger and and calls for for mass political organizing and for a political project. And maybe I'm looking for that from the wrong people, perhaps this is the role of ground level activists and not the not the the work of a team Jeffries or the black of the black caucus, but I think I'm looking for something, Perry, that just sounds different, that sounds more urgent, that sounds like it understands how critical this is.

And I'm not saying that they hasn't expressed anger, disappointment, disbelief, but I think I am looking for something that sounds the alarm a bit more than what I've heard and perhaps I've just missed it.

“But I think I am looking for something that sounds a little more like this is a five alarm fire emergency and we should all be in the streets like yesterday, I think that's what I am looking.”

And the response to that a little bit which is the first one is, and I think jiggas earlier is that the black politicians are now embedded fully in democratic party hierarchy and the democratic party decided last five years that talking about race is bad.

I think that's the first time I started there was a backlash to be on BLM, not sure if they're they decided to come along and probably because he's black so I think they're called for action, yeah.

Yeah, and I do I would just think it's like fair fight action black there are groups Charlotte, I mean, if you if you just think it's being when I look for black leadership today, I don't. So listen to Campbell Harrison, Barack Obama, I'm not sure that there was maybe two blood, but I mean in a certain sense or collaborate in a certain sense, the people who can speak. And black interest in a more direct way are often not prominent black members of the democratic party.

We think of Martin Luther King in his 30s, but also that's pretty young, but also it's student group, it's snick. You know students, you know whether it's freedom writers from the north or southern students who went to rural black schools, you know, and rose and world schools in the world.

“Like these, this is a different youth led movement. And now the relationship between youth and protest politics is very different. There was a youth less lead movement that passed few years.”

The democratic party in liberal institutions joined in crushing it. It is a signal that that style of youth politics that may be unwieldy and is not incorporated into these institutions.

It's not friendly. And the movie Selma makes LBJ seem like such a like hard ass anti like just damn Martin Luther King again, but like, and that's like partially true, but it is this it's a symbiotic relationship where Obama said it to pressure me, right?

“Politics is a different role than movement leaders. And I think we're in a moment of social media, nationalized politics and a different relationship between youth and social and institutional trust that really needs to be rectified.”

I think older generations in institutions need to think hard about, you know, you want to come down on this protest because you don't like it here, but you'll need youth protest very soon to protect institutions like the voting rights act.

And then the last thing I'll say in this new era of nationalized politics and social media where people do not think in terms of their district representative in the same way.

The older ones like Hakeem's point about Clyburn being around, that's true. Like I'm from San Francisco where Nancy Pelosi is like, yeah, like I guess you don't really think it's not like for me Nancy Pelosi is not like, you have like she's like frisco like me, like, I really think it's been to the I've been to the Clyburn fist shot. And I'm saying what I'm saying is like there's a different relationship to district representation across the board now, which demands new institutions. So the voting rights act section two going down is a absolutely the biggest deal tragedy period for black representation.

We also there already was writing on the wall that we needed a new model of represented coalition's not your individual district representative. And that's because in national parties where when you're in the minor I talk about Katanji Brown Jackson as this this is the Katanji Brown Jackson theory here that she is probably the most brilliant Supreme Court justice maybe ever like certainly in my lifetime like reading these dissents does her role on the court like actually matter compared to some role.

You know, in the sixth three minority like yeah her dissents are so fire, but it's like really if it would be different if you had the majority of five for majority shoes on. So it's become more true where it's not about the individual representative.

“I'm saying she's an inspiration to win in and second wave feminism that's not a big deal if you actually lose row and you actually just lose right it's the same in state legislatures and in Congress.”

And for that reason we need a new model that will be faithful to all coalitions one person one vote standard like the voting rights act is about but in this new era.

The voting rights act was in a different depolarized era where there were Northern pro civil rights Republicans this is not the era anymore a new model will look about the one person one vote standard and coalitions something like proportional representation. That says you know it's not about just being represented by an individual right we need to think about percentages of Americans Americans want this direction that direction that would actually make black people not a captured constituency within the democratic party.

But actually pivotal in coalition states you know we actually on this issue can coalition here on this issue coalition here that would be a different model that would match the times we're inside encourage everybody to think about reforms Congress can do like multi member districts for proportional representation to break out of this idea that your personal representative is the main thing when actually what matters is who controls the level of government right now. We're in there is a great conversation that I have like three threads of other conversation that when it could in people we're going to stop here we need to give a wood leaf first here it's an inch to you and get inside and we're talking about here.

Hakeem is at Stanford he is on blue sky though if you want to see here some great insights about politics and race and the connections I think Jake is on both x and and blue sky and also writing a lot for the atom Bonica blog with the call.

Thanks so much may I just slide one thing per year for your audience is that on May 18 I've been talking a lot about Katherine Tate's work on May 18th it'll be available for streaming on zoom while it happens for PM Pacific time I'll be in conversation with Katherine Tate who literally wrote the book on block representation. And so it's a lot more than a lot of people are interested in it and I'm sure it's easy to find black politics and American democracy stands for it you should be able to find it I'll send the link to Perry so that you can you can add it to the comments all right.

Thanks very be well good easy.