Episode #117 Featuring Michael Rubino! Air Quality and Environmental Wellness, The fatal truth about mold, HVAC systems and indoor air quality, Home testing solutions and more!

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“Welcome back to the dillin gemeli podcast, so my guest flew all the way in to see me from”

Tampa today.

And it's just, I swear, no matter how many people come and see me, I'm always just humbled

and flattered that anybody even cares to fly to come and see me. I don't care how long I do this. It is, it is really, really something man. And I just first before we even get going, I appreciate it because I know the flights suck and dealing with the airports and they're long.

And so the fact that you want to come see me share what you learn with me, it is just greatly appreciated. Now, I will say this, I've talked a lot of similar type topics in health and fitness and everything biohack in and I've covered a lot in all of these episodes, but you do some things a little bit different.

So I was extra extra looking forward to this today. So we're going to get into that. But my guest today is an air quality expert and he's an environmental wellness advocate. He's a founder. He's a speaker.

He's a podcast. He's an author, a father, a husband, I mean, he does it all. And I can't say enough about him, but he founded all American restoration in 2017, which ultimately became home plans. And I'm sure some of you have heard of that, but we're going to get into that.

We're going to get everything about air quality things that I don't know that I'm excited to learn about and some things I do know that I think that we need to expound upon. So my friends, it is with great pleasure that I introduce Michael Rubino. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

And by the way, I mean, the flight was very worth it to sit here with you today.

You have an amazing platform. I love how much you educate people.

“And I think that's it's a really important thing to do.”

I appreciate it, man. I really do. I try to bring people like you on here that already have a good audience that deserve more and that can make a significant impact in different than people's lives. Because that's what it's all about.

And that's why I take I connected with you right away when we talk, because I could tell right off the bat that that's what you're all about. And so we align quite well and I'm excited to get into some of the things that you do. Now, unfortunately, what you do is a big problem. And unfortunately, not enough people talk about it or realize it.

Yeah, it's actually a culmination of many different things. Starting off with when I was a kid, I actually had asthma and I had no idea why I had asthma. I went to the doctor and they just said, you had asthma and they said, I would probably have asthma for us in my life.

And I was in, I had an inhaler and I just kind of went about my day and I was really struggling to breathe. When I was eight, we moved from this crazy New York city apartment over to a single family home in New Jersey. And it was literally like date coincident.

The inhaler was gone. I mean, I went to the doctor again and they're like, there's a miracle. I mean, it's unheard of. And so in hindsight, like we were to pull up a picture of Google Maps right now and I gave you the address, 54 Oakville Street in Staten Island, New York and you took a look at where

I was living. You might get an understanding of exactly where I'm going with this. I could picture it. I was for sure exposed to mold as a kid and, you know, dealt with some health issues as a kid.

And I didn't know it at the time. Obviously, the doctors didn't know the time. None of us knew it. My parents didn't know the time. But that obviously stuck with me as I started to reflect back on why am I here doing this

I was actually after Hurricane Sandy hit the northeast where I'm originally from that

I started to really do this work. I mean, I was interested in design. I was interested in music. I wasn't really interested in, you know, mold remediation or doing something from this perspective of cleaning homes away I clean homes today.

I stumbled upon it. My dad had a restoration contract, you know, contracting companies as I'm five years old. So I've been around at my entire life. But it was after Hurricane Sandy hit the northeast that I saw these pattern of people getting sick inside their homes.

And it was, I mean, mesmerizing. I would go door to door, ring doorbells, be invited inside. And I would sit at the table and hear all these different stories of all these different

health challenges that people were going through.

And I didn't quite understand it, you know, I just, I was in my 20s. I didn't understand it at all. But I, but I understood that people were in pain.

“And I believe them, one of the stories was so miraculous because this woman, she had like”

EMF sensitivities. I couldn't bring a cell phone inside. I couldn't stand near her with anything that had any sort of radiation capabilities because her skin would actually burn. I sat at her kitchen table and she showed me Polaroid pictures of her skin like beat

red from just using a computer or being, you know, being around a microwave. I mean, and this is, in my 20s, I didn't understand EMFs. I didn't know, I just, I knew radiation obviously is not good. I was going to school, I understood that we, you know, set off bombs and that radioactive material, not very good, right?

But I didn't understand it from this, I mean, EMFs typically when we're talking about cell phone radiation or things like that, these are very low level, normal levels of radiation that the average person can withstand. This person couldn't withstand it and one of the things that she said was date coincident for her is this stuff started to happen to her after her arcane sanity.

Like before that, she was like, I had a microwave, I used, you know, phones and computers. I didn't have to hardwire anything. And so, you know, that was one story, another story. I'm dealing with an older woman who was like, hey, I live life very normally. Today, I'm, I have deabilitating joint pain to the point where I'm, I need a walker to walk

around. And that, you know, she was probably in her 60s, but she was young. Like, I wouldn't consider someone in their 60s, all of a sudden, you know, someone who's too old and should be dealing with deabilitating joint pain. And she was showing me pictures from the year prior where she was like, on cruises with

her friends, no walker, all of a sudden she's like right after her arcane sanity, this is still deabilitating joint pain. All of these places, by the way, I found extraordinary levels of mold at them. I mean, extraordinary. All of these places had been, quote, unquote, remediated already, but yet there was still

extraordinary levels of mold counts inside these walls, pulling into the HVAC system. It was in the HVAC system. So when I looked at it from that perspective, I thought, wow, there's something here.

“And I think the thing that really crossed my mind wasn't just the fact that, okay, wait”

a second, we're getting sick from homes.

That's, that's extraordinarily a new concept for me. But it was also this fact that, but wait a second, these houses were, quote unquote, remediated. Like, they looked totally fine from, from and just walking through, like, freshly painted walls. It looked like it was totally repaired, but yet behind those walls, there was carpets of black

mold in those HVAC systems. There was extraordinary levels of mold and all of that was dispersing throughout the house. And I started to say, well, how could this be? And it was through this journey, the story started to repeat themselves over and over again. And I started to realize, we've got an epidemic here by had spinning because to see that

for you, I'm thinking about what you encounter where you're going, you're going through the process and going, wow, what is it? What is it from this hurricane that did this, right? And it's also chilling to me because on my way here, I had a call with a cardiologist who was interested in coming on the show and he, his whole thing was talking to me about mold

on the phone. I had it on my speak of phone. Is it a Jack? Jack. Yeah.

Okay. Yes. So, Jack Wilson. Yeah.

“I had a message room and it said, hey, have me on your podcast, I'm like, okay, you know, let's”

do a call. So, my wife was listening to it and I'm looking at her and I'm going, and it's, you know, I've had a lot of discussions on mold, man, he's quoting it to the Bible, which obviously hits me a certain way and I'll get into that. Yeah, absolutely.

He was talking about Moses talking about it in Leviticus. So then now I'm thinking in my head, wow, we had a brand new house in Iowa. We had this crazy water issue where all of a sudden that it was leaking out of the ceiling a couple years old and before I know what I've got this massive water issue in my basement,

I find plaque in my arteries.

“I happen ejection fraction issue and I'm wondering if there's a correlation now there in”

my mind, not to go off topic, but then that brings up what Jack was talking about about the heart and the correlation of everything with the mold. So we're going to talk about all that. Oh, yeah. Okay.

So let's talk about mold first.

Sure. Let's give us a nice synopsis here and understanding of what causes it and the dangers involved in it. So what causes mold is essentially water, you know, mold needs water, food and certain conditions in order to grow.

But essentially, a lot of our homes are made out of food that mold can feed upon. So that's problem number one, right? Problem number two is a lot of our homes aren't built properly, they're not maintained properly and then when they do add problems are not remediated properly. This creates a pretty big recipe for disasters.

“Why I think there's so many problems that we have today.”

And, you know, it just needs at least 60% relative humidity, which in most parts of the country you're going to get that good chunk of the year. It needs some level of water activity depending on the type of mold. So if we have leaks coming into the building and materials get wet, we're very likely to have mold, even if we don't see it on the surface.

So we give you a good example, if I have a window that leaks, if it leaks behind the drywall and into the insulation, which is very common, by the way, where it would typically leak, I might not notice it, but it, it's going to stay wet for at least 24 to 48 hours

because we're talking like basic third grade science at this point, we've got trap moisture.

If I take a wet sponge and I put it on the top of a counter for a second, I want you to visualize this. The area underneath that wet sponge is going to stay wet far longer than if it was wet around the sponge, right? That's because moisture gets trapped, there's no air flow, so it just stays wet.

We consider that trap moisture. When I have building materials sandwiched together, touching one another, and they get wet, they're going to stay wet far longer because there's not enough air movement to help the dry. And so we're going to have, when insulation gets wet, which most of our homes that have windows,

on those exterior walls, we're going to have insulation, when that gets wet, like a sponge in your wall, it's holding onto that moisture, creating enough moisture and enough time for that mold to then grow, all behind your wall and you don't even see it. So that is really part and parcel of the issue is many people have hidden problems, and they have no idea that these hidden problems are wreaking havoc inside these walls, which

are affecting the quality of air that they're breathing. And the average person takes about 20,000 breaths per day, or a great way to visualize that is you actually fill up in your lungs about 2,500 gallons of air every day. That's about enough air to fill up a normal-sized swimming pool, just to get some perspective, right?

So, you know, there's a lot, and if we have problems that we don't know about inside of our homes, unfortunately, statistically, it's many of these homes, the largest home survey ever done was in 1994 by John Spangler was a joint project with the EPA and HUD. And they found that 50% of homes at history of water damage, 50% of all the homes they went into at history of water damage, 80% of those homes had visible signs of mold.

Now I can tell you, I go to a lot of homes all the time, especially people dealing with chronic and complex health issues, they want to know what they need to do to fix their homes, and they look totally fine. Like, I have to really investigate to figure out what is happening behind these walls, behind ceilings, and I'm looking for the usual suspects of where water

“typically comes in. But when I say it's an epidemic, I mean, it is an epidemic, and I think”

that it's easy to become fearful of that. The problem is, I'm not trying to drive fear.

I want to empower people because if you stick your head in the sand, which I feel like is what we've been doing as a society. We've been painting over it, putting bleach on it, just ignoring it all together, thinking it's not that big of a deal. Well, then we're going to have these this declining health issue that we have here today. So I think we can't stick our head in the sand anymore. We can't be fearful of it. We have to take action, because if we don't

take action, we're going to continue to be a victim of this. And I think that's not the position that we want to be in. Well, it's fear or awareness. How do you write at it? And people people live in this like convoluted type of life where they just want everything to be one way. And because we were told this, and it's just a hell of a lot easier to listen to somebody say, this is it, and that's it, as opposed to looking and really dig in deep. It's easier to say something's

idiopathic, or that's just, that's just what happens as you age, or that's just what happens. It's a hell of a lot easier to do that than to do what you do. That's right. I mean,

but that's where the answers lie. We desperately need people like you, because you actually

“find the problem as opposed to, well, that medication didn't work, so maybe this one will. So”

that one's affected me negatively. So let's put you on a hundred of them to rob Peter to pay Paul over and over and over and over until we just ruin your quality of life to keep you alive. Literally, right? I mean, that's the process. Yeah. So let me ask you this. Is it more prevalent in like older homes, or is it potentially possible that newer homes can have this same sort of issue without you even knowing it and could that be potentially how it was built

something that was done? Obviously, time is a factor. Sure. So older buildings, obviously have more chance of having more problems, right? Because if, you know, there's leaks over the years and they weren't fixed properly, the odds of them having some problems are going to be a little bit greater than a newer building. However, that being said, unfortunately, a lot of the newer buildings that were building have their own set of issues. I'll give you an example. A lot of the homes

“back in the day, they were balloon framed. So they had gaps between the the extra while and the”

interior walls, all these pipes and electrical wires would run through them. And you would essentially have wall cavities that could travel have air traveling from all the way up to the roof. Yep. It's all the way down to the crawl space basement would have you. But we don't build homes like that anymore. There wasn't an advantage to those homes. And that was, if water did come in, it really didn't impact the interior of the space, right? Because it, it was probably going to

come in and travel down to the crawl space. Now, yes, one could argue that that can create mold and bacteria in the crawl space in the basement, which obviously would end up impacting the air quality of the home. So yes, that's true. But what I mean by that is like, we didn't have these kind of trap moisture issues that we have today. But all these building materials sandwiched together, being built on top of one another, right? So there's that aspect. The other aspect of older homes

is yet a lot more air exchange. It didn't really have insulation. They didn't have it, above the modern age of access to them. They were, they were designed to just have a little bit of temperature controls, just based upon the way in which the house was constructed with having a lot of airflow, so that you didn't really need age vak, right? When we started converting into age vak, that was, that was problem number one. Because now, we introduced temperature

differentials. So that, that's where the first, I would say, domino that started the fall fell.

Then when you get into this energy efficiency crisis, for those that don't know, basically in 70's Richard Nixon's president, we had a global energy crisis. Because we had a global energy crisis, we started to push towards energy efficiency. We wanted to make things more efficient, then it would be cheaper from an energy perspective to utilize and live in these homes and buildings. The big problem with that is in order to make homes more energy efficient. You basically take away

the air exchange from outside the inside. You insulate the crap out of these homes. You seal the crap out of them so you don't lose any heating or cooling. Because again, this all goes back to the comfort and the modern age vak system. All we're trying to do is make it cheaper to have more

comfortable air. So we go through all these hoops to achieve that. The problem is is that when we went

down that road, nobody thought about indoor air quality. I mean, it was just completely ignored. I would argue that it's still ignored today. And with that being said, when as of happening is, you've got these homes that are tighter and tighter and tighter. We're like in a snow globe.

“Yeah. That's the best way to describe it. I know. And we use chemicals in our house. You know,”

maybe not people like you and I. But the average person uses a lot of chemicals in the house. We have microplastics because our clothes are synthetic. We're shedding a lot of microplastics in the environment. We've got our own virus particles and bacteria particles that we produce as human beings. Because we are essentially gigantic human combos. Right. Right. And you know, then we have problems like mold and bacteria because of water damage that enters our house. We've got

microbial accumulation that occurs on the HVAC system. Because the way in which we've designed this beautiful thing to keep our house warm, when we wanted, and cold when we want it, is it, it has an evaporative coil, which constantly condensates. Right. So we talked about what is mold need to grow. What is bacteria need to grow? Well, it needs moisture. Well, it is a source of moisture in your in your HVAC system. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so now as mold and bacteria get to it,

which they're always getting to it. Unless you have a really high grade filter. But who knows

about that? That's another thing we need awareness on. Right. And so another story. Yeah. And so what happens is it starts to grow on the coil. Essentially turning that into a mold factory, a bacteria factory, and that's another part of the issue. So going back, just rewinding a little bit, you know,

50 years ago. And I think that's something that we want to take a look at. And it's not very expensive to course correct. Right. And I think, you know, a lot of the building about biologists communities, a lot of these really healthy building communities are doing a great job starting to say, well,

wait a second. We need, we need air exchange. We need fresh air coming in. You know, they're starting

to realize that that we've gone a little bit far down this road. We might have created some problems that were not intentional, but just happened in the course of things. And so it's, it's great, but it's such a small microcosm of where it needs to be. And I think, you know, as we have these types of conversations, and people start to think about this, a lot of change can happen because of that.

“Yeah, I wasn't sure, but I had a feeling. And that's why I asked you because the obvious thought would”

be, I got a new home. I don't have to worry about that. That would be the obvious thought, because when I was talking to you before, and I told you my cat was sneezing. And it was just weird that you keep sneezing. And I kept telling myself, but it's a new house, but it's a new house statement.

But then I thought, man, they must have done something or whatever. And then what did you recommend

me to do? Clean the ducks, right? Yep. So why would somebody need to look at those and how big of a problem is the duck itself in the house? Like, what would cause something like that in a brand new house for me that it could potentially be dirty and need cleaned? Yeah. So, you know, kind of the secret I gave you was when most houses are being constructed. They're running the HVAC system, because they want their workers to be comfortable. Sure, by the working. I have no harm in that. But when you're running

the HVAC system while you're creating dust, all that dust gets into the HVAC system. And it becomes food for mold, it becomes food for bacteria. Not to mention, it just recirculates. And so, if you think about your cat, your cat has a, you know, it's very low to the ground. And I mean, it's spending a lot of time walking around on the floor and horizontal surfaces. Well, where does our dust collect or dust collects on these horizontal surfaces? So, when you talk about, like,

how does indoor air quality affect our pets and our children? I would argue it affects them much more than it affects adults. And we're seeing how problematic it is for adults, right? And so, I think this is something that we want to be mindful of. And what's a solution for that? I said,

“you know, you should get your your HVAC system cleaned. Yeah. Because all that dust that's been”

accumulating that's still circulating around, that you can get rid of that. And problem solved, you know? And so, it's, there's solutions to everything. And that's the beauty of it.

But you have to know that there's a problem in the first place, or you're not going to go and

reach for a solution. Well, I, when I got off the phone with you, I told you, I'm putting that up on my screen. And I didn't do it. And then we went for a walk last night and went to get the mail. And I pulled those, like, monthly keep on selling for conduct cleaning. I said, right on the countertop. I said, and I said, okay, he told me to do this. And I didn't do it. This is the sign. Okay. Oh, it's sitting right there for me to do it. How often should one take that route clean

your ducts? Is that a once a year thing? Yeah. I would say it's a once a year thing. And I think timing also matters on that. I want to explain that a little bit. Please. And I also want to talk about

“filtration. I think filtration is really important for the HVAC system. There's something called”

call the "merve rating." I think we all have heard of HEPA. Yeah. You know, but there's something called the "merve rating." And essentially the "merve rating" is the higher the "merve rating." The smaller the particle could filter out at a specific efficiency. HEPA is essentially a 99.97 percent efficiency. And that's really what that means. And it gets to a certain particle at that efficiency, typically 0.3 microns, right? However, you want to look at it from this perspective of

sometimes you have higher filtration than just like what the HEPA standard is, which is just one particular size at one particular efficiency. Sometimes you can actually get better than that. You can get better than HEPA at a pretty high efficiency rate. That's worth looking into and investing into because you're really getting a smaller particle from getting into the system. Which is going to provide you more longevity and less maintenance costs. So you want to look at it from this

perspective of maybe I can invest a little bit up front and get a better filter, but actually I say more in the long run. And that's sort of the strategy that I like to look at because if we have better filtration, we're going to be breathing better air. We're going to be having less dust in our house because it's actually going to be sucking that dust up and trapping it into the filter. It's like almost like thinking about having an air purifier in your HVAC system.

Well, if you think about what an air purifier is, it's just a motor and a filter, right? And fancy piece of plastic, typically. But that's what it is. So just draws air in traps, particles in the filter blows cleaner air out at the top. So it's essentially cleaning the air so that your lungs aren't the ones doing that. But when you take it to this perspective of like with the HVAC system, everybody should be cleaning their system in their ducks, even if they have good filtration.

time that I want people to clean their HVAC system is in the fall. Okay. And the reason being,

“it's a very simple reason. And you know, people can argue with me all they want and just”

understand this one thing. The thought process that I have on this is, in the winter time, people are typically putting their heat on. Their heat is typically a dry heat produced by their HVAC system. That dry heat can break apart the microbes that are growing on the coil. All right. Because they become brittle, they become smaller fragments. And they circulate around the house a lot easier. And it's past the filter already. Right. So whatever is past the filter,

the filter's not going to unfortunately do anything with. It's just, it's got free rain to kind of circulate across your house. And the reason that I, that I came up with this one, I've seen

so many HVAC systems get tested out thousands of HVAC systems. But I've seen this first hand where

I get the most calls actually over the winter time dealing with symptoms. And the reason is, it's very simple. In the summertime, you're outside a lot. It's nice out. You're getting dinner outside.

“You're not, you know, yes, the mold's probably starting to grow. And the bacteria's probably starting”

to grow in the summertime. You know, but you're outside more. You're not experiencing it more. You got these nice cool breezy nights. You open the windows more. Things like that, right? You just don't see it. Then in the winter time, right? You get that dry heat. It starts breaking it. Those those particles apart. Now all of the sudden they're traveling through the duckwork. Think of it. They HVACs some like the lungs of the home. And now you're breathing that in.

And now you're inside more because it's cold. We don't want to go outside in the winter time.

Right? See where she live here. Unless you live here. Sure, or where I live right. But, you know, the rest of the the planet typically is old and sheltered inside. They don't want to leave. And they're going from 90% indoors to maybe 99% indoors. And guess what? Right? They start to feel those effects. Right. And so if you do it in the fall, then you can remove all of those microbes and particles before you turn on the heat. So that when you turn on that heat, there's nothing they

“get brittle and break apart and travel across the house. So I think the secret to that is get”

better filtration, clean your system every fall. And you'll avoid those, you know, I mean, think about the flu season. It's like every winter, right? Yeah. Well, if you're immune systems weakened because you've got a ton of molder bacteria in your environment, don't you think you're going to get sick more frequently from viruses and other things more than likely. Yeah. Okay. So I'm we're going to do a break down here. But for the for and all seriousness now for the people that

live in places like here or Hawaii or whatever, does it matter the time of year when they do the cleaning, can they do it anytime or do you still stay fall? I was still saying when the weather's getting cooler. You know, even if you don't have heat, you know, you're not going to use heat. Yes, fine. I was still saying when the weather's getting cooler because you're going to have a sort of sort of a reset. Yeah. Like, if you can do it after the humid season, I think you're going to

provide a lot of value in longevity and how long that system stays clean. Okay. So let's do this then for everybody. Let's make it really simple and easy to the process. And what you recommend. So we're going to clean the HVAC system. Yep. And is that also proportionate with the ducks that you were talking about is that totally different. So HVAC, duck cleaning. Yeah. So they're different pieces, but they're tied together. Right. So like if you, there's going to be a closet somewhere

or a crawl space somewhere or an attic somewhere where you're going to have an HVAC system. Right. And that's usually that big tin, hunk of metal that you see somewhere. And it's usually got one or two lids that you could pull off and you could see the unit. And then it's got the duck work that attaches to that. Sure. So that's where the motor is. That's where the coil typically is. That is blowing the air through the ducks that then connect to the rooms in your house. So you want to

find that hunk of metal because in there is the evaporative coil that you're going to want to clean. For sure, that it think of that as like the source of where it would grow. It doesn't mean that it can't grow in the ducks. It can, but it needs moisture. So it's going to grow either closer to the coil like that main trunk line that comes up and connects to that big hunk of metal or there has to be something wrong with a duck somewhere where like maybe it's leaking. The air is leaking.

And so you've got temperature differentials hot air outside, cold air blowing through the duct. And there's a split in the ducks somewhere. And so boom, it creates condensation that you start to get mold growth in there. If you don't have that problem, though, then you're really just looking to clean the dust out inside the duck work. Because within that dust, you could have mold them bacteria. Right. Coffee gives you a moment of energy. Not to could gives you

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intentional wellness journey today at peaklife.com/dillon. That's PIQUELife.com/dillon. Okay, so we got the A's fact. We got the ducks now. We brought up filtration. Okay, so here's the question. In terms of filtration, like my house has, man, I don't even know,

“70 filters that they told me to change every 30 to 60 days. Is that what you're talking about?”

Is there some sort of special filter with the H-back and particular in that area that you're talking about? I mean, I have a special filter, but what you're talking about is true. You could, you probably have these filter grills throughout your house. Oh, yeah, everywhere. That are in

your ceilings, and you're always what I require, a big ass ladder, and every, yeah, my handyman

to do, because I don't do that type of thing. Listen, listen, that's the last one way to do it. You could just abandon all that and get a really good filter installed at the unit, if you've got the room for it, and that would be much better quality, so think about it from this perspective. If I've got filter grills all over my house, and I put filters in there, I'm really not going to be able to do better than a Murr 13 filter in there. And even that could be questionable. It's going

to restrict a lot of airflow, because you're basically, you're, you're, you're, you're trying to suck air through a straw here. The duck work is the straw, but you've got your hand partially covering it. Right? So you're restricting a lot of airflow. You're not going to be able to put like a Murr 16 filter in this area throughout every returning your house, or you're going to probably choke your system, and then it's just going to fruit the coil freeze. That'll be its own

nightmare. Right? So you would benefit from installing something at the unit, because you can go way higher, because it's obviously a builder, a bigger chamber, so you can disperse the airflow through it without having to worry about choking the system essentially, and you could actually benefit from getting a smaller particle removed from that. And then you nice thing is, like,

“if you went with a filter, I like, you would change it every two to three years. That's how long”

it lasts. And then you would build the ditch, all those things, and the ladders, and just leave your ladders in your garage, and not have to worry about it anymore. It is ridiculous. How many there are I, when we were walking through, because it's a new house, and I was on what? Like, since when? You know what I mean? Like, I'm used to it, like, because I lived in Iowa, and it's like you changed it very infrequently. Yeah, I know right downstairs with the heater and the the air

casters, and that's it. But you know, here, it's like you got two air conditioners, and they're two different parts of the house that, like, our bedroom function separately than the rest of the house.

Right. So many things there that I think people wouldn't be clueless about, that would never even

think twice about, that are just wrecking health, just damaging lives. So when it comes to mold, and then I'm going to shift to like a detection of mold, what do you recommend it ways of going about that and what you exactly do? But can you talk about different problems that mold will cause

“a person, a child, a pet, like, tell, tell signs, and then how bad it could potentially get?”

I want to say one thing really importantly first, please, before I get into that. If we look at America and our systems, our government systems, they're all disjoined and discombobulated. The CDC is telling people to still use bleach. The EPA is telling people, please don't use bleach. And all the different state, the part, health department websites are all saying different things, and so it makes it very difficult for people to wrap their head around like, what do I do?

Right. And you know, I feel like today more than ever, we're starting to wake up like, hey, our government might be slow to regulate things for our benefit. And there might be some problems there, right? And the big thing about this is, is that, unfortunately, this science has been really slow to evolve, mainly because the government hasn't been appropriating a whole lot of

wow, there's something that can travel through the air that could be smaller than what I can see,

that could potentially harm me, right? It was like sort of the first big idea in that direction.

Now we're, we're appropriating more funds. Now we're starting to see things, we're starting the research is starting to come out. I mean, there's a lot of beneficial things happening.

“The NIH didn't update, I think it was September of 2025. And it's not a complete list of”

the dangers of what mold can do. But it's a step in the right direction. See, previous to that that paper, you know, really from a government perspective, the best data that we really had was mold causes asthma, right? And that was sort of all they were willing to sort of say, right? Even though there were so many medical journals and papers out there that we're really talking about, like, Otoxins and the toxic genetic effects of those and how that's problematic,

we know, or maybe maybe we don't know, maybe we're finding this out right now for the first time

on this podcast, but the FDA regulates, or I don't know how they regulate this, but they know Mike Otoxins are bad and they're trying to regulate it in the food supply. I say, try because I don't see how they could possibly enforce this in all in all particular areas. But no, at least they know about it and they set some some guidelines to prevent like Otoxins and our food supply as best as possible. We know it's a problem in coffee still. We know it's a problem in peanuts and peanut butter

and not some things of that nature. But you know, we're there at least, you know, have some different angles of which they've been working at it. But from an air quality perspective, it's like, you know, it was like completely missing. The data on these government websites was even still to this day. It's very disjointed, discombobulated. The NIH came out and said, hey, it can cause cancer. I mean, just the big C word is something that really nobody

would have ever wanted to admit, right? Finally, they're like, this can cause cancer. Now, why did they, why did they come out and say that? Well, because we already had the evidence that Micotoxins can cause cancer. Mold produces Micotoxins. That's one of the big problems with regulating in our food supply. However, we haven't been talking about Micotoxin exposure from an air quality perspective in our homes because, unfortunately, if we have mold in our walls

and that mold is a Micotoxin producing mold, then there is a potential that it could produce Micotoxins. And that is a potential that we could be exposed to that. Now, again, not to cause fear or panic, but we want to be able to control that. And we want to have our Micotoxin exposure to be within normal ranges. We don't want to go out and have too much exposure. We want this to be something that we can be in control of. Well, how could we be in control of it if we

haven't been given the information? So I was so appreciative and quite honestly, I was shocked when it first happened because I've been fighting this for 13 years. And you know, finally, you know, it kind of felt like the information was seen the light of day. In the name of being able to help people, right? Because I'll tell you, over the past 14 years, if you wanted to know how many skeptics I've been in front of, I mean, quite a few. Because I would sit down at people's kitchen

“counters and being like, hey, based upon your levels, I think you should probably take some action.”

And it's like, well, is this illness really that or is it something else or, and I always said,

you know what, you don't have to take my word for it, right? I want you to go leave your house. And I want you to go away for the weekend. And if you notice you feel better when you're out of your house, then you feel worse when you're in your house and your symptoms flare up when you're in your house, you might want to start thinking that maybe the trigger is in your house. Or maybe this is triggering your symptoms. Am I going to say it's causing your symptoms? Because causation and

triggering and correlation, right? These are, these are words that I would, as someone who's not a doctor, it's not something I get into. But if you feel better outside your house and you come back into your house and you get triggered by these symptoms, well, then maybe you might want to do something with your house. And that's sort of been the guiding light. But when this paper came out in September of 2025, and it said it can cause cancer, neurodegenerative disease, right, neurodegenerative

issues like brain fog when it said that it can cause inflammation and asthma. And it started to talk about the multi systemic issues that mold can have on the human body. That was a huge win.

“Yeah. And it was a huge win for the public because now they could do something about that, right?”

And when the NIH comes out and says this, now doctors who have been unsure of like, is this real

a credible body of information. But I think that is so important. And you know, a colleague of mine, Brandon Chapo, he's a director of public policy for change the air foundation. He was, he was telling me that he met with the CDC and the EPA recently about, you know, trying to get some change going on the websites because, you know, that's where these people go for information. We've got to have good accurate information. And, you know, he called me all excited and was like, hey, you know,

look, I don't know what they're going to do. But they did realize that their information's a bit

“archaic. And they, they are looking into, you know, updating it and stuff like that. And I think”

to me that that's a, it's a really beautiful and powerful thing because, you know, it's, um,

I think it's, it's one of those sad things that people rely so much on the government to, to be this maker of change. But when you understand how the government works, it's 20 years behind the change. It's pioneers and platforms like yours where people actually get to learn things because it's the people that care that see things with their own eyes that can observe. Let's say, there's a problem here. And it's that that, that really creates that change. Not the government. Look what Elon Musk is

done with with SpaceX and all the technologies he's built. He has inspired change. The government didn't develop these rockets that could take off and land themselves behind the government didn't develop the electric vehicle. We cannot expect the government to innovate for us or to have our

“back, especially when these massive companies, they paid millions of dollars to choose who they want”

to win. These elections, it's rough and being dependent on people that, like you said, they've got

three different websites with three different things when it would take one call to an IT person to make a simple sentence change. I mean, seriously, it's, they act like when you ask of something like that, like it is just the most difficult thing on the planet to make happen to change something factual. And that is the most disturbing thing that I can even imagine that lack of care and the things that they actually worry about and talk about in bigger about amongst each other. They're

not role models. They're not anything of any kind whatsoever that anybody should model their life after. And this is not a government attack. This is a fact. This is why I've done what I do because everybody's got to roll. Your role clearly is what you're doing. It is helping people to

“see and realize an aspect of their lives that is detrimental that you're trying to fix. My role”

is to get people like you and front of people and to be able to convey the message properly,

going back and forth with you and teaching and asking the right questions. What's everybody's problem? What are they saying that's the problem? Not the personal taxing. What is the main problem? You know what the main problem is? Confusion. It's simple. They try confusion. The people that are actually asking genuine questions that aren't bitching and running their mouth online, they're confused. Oh yeah. And what did you just say? The place where you're supposed to

get your information, it's confusing. And then they turn everybody against each other and see, you can't listen to this person or that person. When you can't even update your website for 20 years. That's right. Who do you listen to then? I would listen to the guy like you that's in the trenches every single day and I spent their life to work doing it. So I just, I don't want to go off topic, but I want to spot like that. So anybody that attacks anybody that comes on here's

credibility, because we don't have 75 letters after our name that's bought and paid for, that doesn't mean anything because they're getting taught what they're, the people above them are telling them to teach and what they're paid to teach them. It's not the fault of the person in school. It's not the fault of the person that genuinely want to be a doctor to save lives. It's the school and the people that are learning from. So what you've done is so commendable

because you do it every day and you talk with real people and you see it and you learn it and that's what I want to get into next because I know how to lead into something. What you do? What exactly is the home plans, the dust kit, these tests? What is it that you actually do? And is it something that you feel like every single home should do at least once or what's just explained it? Not from this is my business and whatever, like for the perspective of actually what's the

purpose and the reason for this and why is it imperative? So the purpose is to create an N10 solution to end the suffering of chronic illness created by porn to air quality. That's the purpose. It's a very simple purpose and it's of what the business offering has evolved over time. Because every time I would hit a wall in being able to help somebody, I realized that the wall was created by the word that you said earlier, confusion. A lot of people

and I can show you how you should do something about that and you could even go to the modern

medicines amazing by the way because we can actually correlate specific molds in a home and the

specific toxins that those molds produce in your body to show you, hey, you may want to take action. You still have to be the one to take the action. I can't force you to take action, but I want to

“educate you on taking action and taking the right action. And I think that's really important.”

One of the problems that we ran into is I would leave your kitchen counter and most people that call a few people and get some opinions, I think is a really important thing. However, in this industry, if you call three different people, you're going to get three wildly different opinions. And that is definitely part of the problem. I'll give you an example. You've got a leaking window. I'm going to tell you, hey, you've got to open up around this window.

We've got to pull out that contaminated insulation that contaminated drywall. We're going to have mold growing on the lumber behind it. We have to remove the mold from the lumber. We have to

see why the window is leaking in the first place that poor flashing, something is occurring.

That's allowing the water to come in. We have to make sure that's corrected. It's a bit of a elbow grease type process. There's no, unfortunately, magic solution. I'm going to tell you that you're going to say it makes sense. I'm going to tell you

“when I think it's going to cost. You're going to be like, okay, I think that makes sense.”

I'm going to leave. You're going to have somebody else come in. They're going to say, well, that guy's crazy. You don't have to do that. I got a fog. We could just fog it away, man. We could just, for like a third of the price, we could just fog it away. And I'd say, you know, you could spend a third of that price. But you won't even get a third of the value, right? Because

that mold is not going to just disappear. The conditions that allowed it to grow in the first

place are still present. This fog is not perpetuating walls and insulation and removing and eradicating mold from those services. It's not. This is the living organism. I just want you to think about, like, you've got weeds growing in your walls. You think spring some weed killer on it's going to kill it. Think it's really going to take care of the problem or your weed's going to come right back. Raise your hand if you've used weed killer in the backyard and if the weeds came back, come on,

guys. This is not the solution. All right. Solution is just to remove it and solve the problem. But if you're a guy sitting at a kitchen counter and one guy's telling you, it's three X to price. Another guy's telling you it's a third of the price. That's going to cost confusion. And you know what that guy's going to say? He's going to tell you that guy, Michael Robina was trying to take advantage of you. Well, it's very easy for you to be convinced of that.

When you've got a solution, that's a third of the price. Except when it doesn't work and then you call me back and you apologize and you say, I'm really sorry. I spent a third of that guy and he didn't work. But these situations happen all the time. Sure. And you've got all these different people trying to sell some product or solution, but they're missing the actual point of what we need to do. And it's to remove the issue, the source of the problem and then correct it. Like we have to

unfortunately do surgery in the home. You know, like you've got a bleeding artery. We can't just give you a pain pillar and just hope for the best. We've got to fix it, right? And so that's sort of the situation. So in realizing all of that, I realized a couple of different things, which is why I started to evolve the end-end solution. So we've got the skepticism and the competitive nature of the industry itself on trying to sell their solution or product. You've got the other side of

the issue as well is the inspection side is absolutely terrible in terms of like having a standard. I'm going to explain why. If I let somebody come into my house and do an inspection, more often than not, they're going to rely on a technology called air sampling. Now, I'm not suggesting we throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I just want people to understand from a screening tool perspective. It's the worst screening tool you could possibly use and it is used

as a screening tool incorrectly all the time to give you an example. They'll set up a tripod and they'll be a pump and they'll be a little air cassette on that pump. They'll usually do it in the center of a room.

“Let's just say the average size room is 10 by 10 with eight foot ceilings. Would you agree with that?”

Yeah, or do you match that? So 10 by 10 room with eight foot ceilings. This machine collects 75 liters of air. Well, 75 liters of air passed through it. It collects the particles within that 75 liters of air. Particles of a very specific size because it has to fit inside the hole and it has to then get into the slide so it can be analyzed in a lab.

foot ceilings. How many liters of air do you think are in there? No idea. I only know it because I looked it up. Over 22,000 liters of air. All right. Now, if you're listening to this, I want you to get out of calculator and I want you to do 75 divided by 22,000. It is less than 1%. So we are

basically with that technology and by the way, what a lot of these guys do, they charge you like

2,500 bucks. I'm going to tell you the business model. They do like four or five or six of these air samples across the house. Okay. Maybe the bedroom, maybe the bathroom, the living room, wherever, wherever they just do this. A lot of them don't do a really good job inspecting. They just kind of

“set this up. It's profitable for them. That's why they do it. And air testing has been the gold”

standard for as long as the technology really came out. And so what we're doing is we're basically taking a drop of water and analyzing one drop of water and then telling people don't worry. The whole ocean is good. That's how we have to look at this. And so that became so freaking problematic for people. I would have people call me up and say, hey, I don't feel well. I know it's not mold though. I'm thinking maybe it's VOCs or some other things. I would love, you know, would love a second

opinion on this. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. So why do you think it's not mold just at a curiosity?

Just because I always, I don't always think it's mold by the way, but I'm just curious why do you

think it's mold? Oh, because I did air testing. Okay. Can you send me those that report? And I look at it in six air samples. I'm like, okay. You can see in the photograph,

“usually they'll take a picture of like where the machine is, right? Yeah. Though I see it's in the”

center of the room or blah. There's no fans or anything like that. It's not like they're trying to stir up the air and then get it get a sample. They just ambient air sample. And I'll be like, okay. How big is that room? Oh, it's 22 by 10, you know, 22 by 12. Okay. Good. So we've got like 40,000 liters of air inside that space and we've analyzed 75 of it and we're saying the whole space is good. And they're like, well, that doesn't make sense. I'm like, I know it doesn't make sense.

And by the way, these reports say everything's perfect. The house is fine. So there was a technology. It was probably 2013 or 15 somewhere around there that I stumbled upon what's called an Erme test. And an Erme test is essentially, well, the Erme stands for the environmental relative

moldiness index. This test basically uses a technology called MSQ PCR similar to the PCR

COVID times, the nose swans. This isn't a nose swab, though. This is a dust collection sample. And just like PCR, if you don't know what it is, you basically can put something in it and then just match something. You have these primers that go into the machine that tell you, I don't know. You want to look for 36 different species of mold. You can put 36 different species of mold in there. And you can take a cloth and then you can put the cloth in there. Basically, the dust from that

cloth, if it has mold in it, you can match it with the primers that are there. That's really how works. So if you wanted to check for COVID, you put COVID in it and you do a nose swab and you put that in there and see if there's COVID. If there's COVID, we've got a match. Totally different topic

“and all you want to go there. But that's how the technology works. Whatever you put in, you can match.”

This is a DNA specific analysis, right? So I came across this technology and the inspectors I was working with at the time, they were using the technology and they were when I looked at the numbers, it was very interesting because you would have these air tests that would tell you this everything's normal. But then you would have like all these indicator molds, indicator molds, by the way, they mean these molds that are typically more water reactive, hydrophilic molds. These molds

can not grow if the home is not watered image. Like, you can't have them as sources in the environment if the house is not watered image. Doesn't mean you can't carry it from outside to inside or something like that, right? And if you saw one spore, you'd be like, okay, it could have came it from outside. But if you start seeing thousands, you're like, no, that's a little more than like I tracked that in, we should probably look for a source. So we developed a test called the dust test,

which by the way, all your listeners are going to get 20% off that test today. They're going to use code Dylan. Yep. Thank you. And the reason that I developed this test, it ain't to make money. The margins on this test are absolute garbage. It ain't about making money on this test. This test is about giving people answers. And actually, I and I specifically created this test with the mindset of,

their doctor, and the doctor says, I think your house is part of the problem. You need to get your

“house checked. They look through Google, Chad, GBT, wherever they look at these days to find people.”

They find random people on the internet. They call said random people on the internet. They come in and they do those air samples in the center of the house, analyze less than 1% of the air quality across the entire house and tell people that everything's fine. And I got so sick of that. Not just because two, two reasons I got sick of it. One, because it created skepticism. Now people think it ain't mold anymore. I can go and do my own, you know, go off and do something else. But when I

started interviewing people and seeing how many people started to put their attention elsewhere, go four years in a different direction, still every day taking 20,000 breaths per day in that

house, getting sicker and sicker and sicker and have no idea why because they already discounted

the mold aspect or the house aspect, I've got a problem with that. Not only do I have a problem of that, but the fact that most people are spending money and they're going to three and four and five inspectors trying to look for answers and not get into the answers. I've got to problem with that too because again, we now are spending resources on things and not getting answers. And so what's happening is we just keep getting sicker, staying in the environment that's contributing to the

illness or whatever we're feeling. And you know, I could confidently tell you, you could pick any autoimmune disease out there. I will tell you that they will have some level of sensitivity to mold or that mold will trigger some level of symptoms that they might experience with that autoimmune

“disease. I'm not going to sit here and say that I think mold causes those autoimmune diseases”

because I don't think we have enough information to be able to to make quite that claim, but I'll tell you if you have it and then you live in a moldy home, you're not getting better. Right. It will, it will get these symptoms that will spike and trigger having these conditions. And I can confidently say that because the thousands of people from all walks of life with all backgrounds, all different ages, dealing with all different autoimmune conditions,

having the commonality of toxic levels of mold in their home, the micro toxins are breathing in, whatever it may be, the bacteria, the water damage, the VOCs, the chemicals they're breathing in, all of these things, equate to they feel terrible at home. They feel great when they leave. So why do we develop the dust test because the dust is almost like the DNA of the home? Look at it as a blood test of the home, however you want to look at it. But if I've got mold

“in the ceiling above me, if I've got mold behind a wall, if I've got mold in the NageFact system,”

I'm not able to see it. It's going to be in my dust. Why is that? Because if you think about it from this perspective, you ever sat near a window on a sunny day and you saw the ray of light refract off the dust. You're like, holy cow, my dust is everywhere. Are you getting the visual right now? Absolutely. All the time I see that and thankfully my wife's a daily cleaner, so it's gone very quick. Yes. Yes. And I know what you're talking about. So the microbes that

are going to travel through the air, they're going to attach to the dust. Got it. And then they're going to become part of the dust. And so they're going to be on the services. They're going to be on the floor. And unfortunately, they're also going to be in the air and you're going to be breathing that in because it's unavoidable. We have to breathe and dust is part of our environment. And it's going to be more than just dead hair and skin cells. It's going to be the microbes in the environment.

And so what we've noticed over the years is the more microbes you have, the more sources of microbes that you have, the higher the levels are going to be in the dust. Got it. Well, I'm going to take this test from report back. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So and it will give us synopsis of a new home and what it looks like. And that will give an indicator for people. So dude, masterclass, absolute masterclass. I can't tell you how appreciative I am and appreciative that you took the time to

break that down in all the ways that you did. And I'm excited to share this with everybody because I haven't dug into this anywhere to the extent or level that I showed up. So you just gave me something extra now for knowledge bank that I can start, you know, really relaying to people.

Because it's it's amazing to have a voice like yours. But then when I get the knowledge and I

can start to convey this more too. And we can just work together to get the understanding and word out of these things that are ever present. So man, the time flew in the conversation was amazing. So I appreciate it. Like I said, give the link, the code will be down there with my code Dylan for the the the dust test. But just give the the website for that and then we're to follow you online. Yeah. So go to the dusttest.com. That's where you can use code Dylan year 20% off.

You get a pretty steep discount. Yeah. And that that just gives you the information to tell you what to

“do. Right. And we've got an end-end solution if you need it. Right. Just the point is you want to”

empower yourself with information because you can't fix problems. If you don't know the problems exists,

right. Right. If you do need help further than that, you want to know what filters to

buy, cleaning products to use that are safer, alternative products that aren't chemical based, but that can get rid of things like mold and bacteria. You can go to homeclans.com. There's

amazing stuff out there. That's where if you wanted to speak to someone live and get some expert

“opinions, that's the website to do it. And then if you're interested in change, you should go to”

change the airfoundation.org because that the three pillars of change the airfoundation is education, policy reform, and then research. So there's a lot of exciting things happening there.

“And if you want to follow up on some of the change and some of the work we've done with the mold”

act in military housing, please go on there. And if you want to follow me and you want to hear more about what I have to say on social media, please add the Michael Rubino. We, man. Well, I appreciate everything like I said, especially taking a time to come and see me and to get this information out. So, brother, truly appreciate it. You're doing great, great, great work. And I'm going to help you on this journey to educate. And I hope everybody really takes note and heart to what we discussed today.

So that being said, stay tuned for Plenty Mortocom, Dylan Jamelli. Sign it off. (upbeat music)