John Maxwell: Getting a Return on Your Failures

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This is the admiral show. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So, today is obviously my favorite day of the year. About once a year, I get a chance to have this man on our show. And hopefully, that'll happen more and more in 2026. But let me just tell you about this man. Number one, you all know his accolades.

He's the premier leadership expert in the world, the last 50 years of my life. That means I'm old. Number one. Well, it means I'm old. 50 years. But he sold out, what do you sell? 35 million books. He's written 100 different books. And that's not what I love about him, even though he's the best in the world that what he does. I'll just tell you all personally that, you know, since my father's past away,

which was about four or five years ago, this man sort of fulfills that role for me in my life,

of the man that I look up to the most, and he's my hero. He's the person that I'll never,

ever live up to the shoes that he's walked in, but they're the ones I would love to try to fill in my life. I admire him tremendously. He's as good a human being as I've ever met in my life. And so today we're going to talk about his new book, which I specialize in this thing called failure. So I'm really glad you wrote this book. It's called How to Get a Return On Failure. Fail, smarter, return, stronger with this man, John Maxwell. Welcome back to the show, my friend.

Oh my gosh, that's so good to be with you. I love you so much. You know, I wish everybody could have the relationship that we have. You know, everybody needs to have somebody that they care for

“and that they learn from and grow with. Yeah. And that's, I think, when I think of you and I,”

we just get, we're better together. Thank you. Well, I'm certainly better. My life's changed instead of knowing you. Yeah. You don't want to tell you. Just tell the audience too. You know, when I make decisions, I used to think, obviously, I know we have Christ centered in our lives. But I don't tell them a man that I know. I used to think, how would my dad handle this?

And since my dad's passed away, the biggest compliment I could give you is I'll always think,

how would John handle this? That's sort of my, my bra and I just want you to know that. Well, I want to handle it well, my friend. Although, how would John handle this? We're going to talk about failure, which is my spiritual gift. So it's your spiritual gift. So I want to, that's the one thing I want to know. It is the number one thing. Would you agree that probably holds people back from even making an effort in the first place? So let's frame what, when I say failure, just that

word, what comes to mind for you when you hear that first? Well, for everybody, it's negative. Very seldom will you ever run into a person that you put the word failure in front of and they think good things. Right. And so it's already a weight. It's a weight, mentally. It's a weight, emotionally. It's a weight psychologically on people. And so I wrote the book really to help them understand that it doesn't have to be a liability. It truly can be an asset. But it cannot be an asset

until we change the way we think about failure and embrace it. And when you think of mentors, Ed Roberts Schiller, who is the passionate and crystal cathedral, when I was 33, he found me. And he called me and he said, I want you to come to the crystal cathedral and meet you. I want you

to speak for me. I'm hearing a lot about you. So I'm just a kid and we're having our first dinner

and he asked me he said, what's your greatest challenge? I said, well, I said, I don't think I

“always take enough risk. I think that I'm holding back a little bit. So we talked about failure.”

And he said to me that day, John, if failure were not possible, what would you attempt to accomplish? Well, if failure is not possible, that just takes the whole lid off and will you try anything?

not a realistic question, but it's a good question that led me to a great question. You don't get

to great until you get to good. It's kind of a process. So after about nine months of asking myself a failure or not possible, what I do this, yes, and so I went it. I came back with a failure or possible, but you knew if it happened, it was going to help you. That's a great question. That's a great question. And I started asking myself that question. I've done that now for many many years. This would have been watched 33-ups, 78, so do the math. So this has been a long time

ago. But when I change the question, I found I changed the frame of mind. Yeah, you've reframed it. Yeah, we reframed the question. Now you can get the mind where it needs to be. And so how to receive return on failure is really about, let me give you the right perspective, because how we view things, is how we do things. You and both know that perspective, everything. I mean, I'll side of sharing my faith that if I could do one thing for any person, I would help it with

“perspective, because that's going to really make them a break up. And I think it's true with failure,”

too. My perspective of failure determines whether it's an asset or a liability and return on failure is all about the perspective, the right perspective of failure. Now it becomes an asset. Wow, not, not a detriment. I have to tell you, when you do interviews like you're supposed to go, this is such an important topic, but it is so important. So my son Max is here today. Last week, I was with my daughter, and she's graduating college, and she's going to get into sales.

And probably real estate. And she's very talented. She's a closer. She can persuade. She's good with people. She has all that stuff. And she says, then Daddy, why are you not completely sure that this is for me? And I said, honey, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't know how you'll deal with failure. Yeah. And I think that more than anything almost in it, and it's someone's career in life defines them. Maybe even more than talent,

maybe even more than skills. I don't know how you're going to deal when you miss six sales in a row, or four people stand you up, or you make you embarrass yourself to some extent. And I said to her, and I want your perspective, and as I said, ironically, I kind of think people that are really afraid to fail are almost like Eagle Maniacs. It's just the flip side of the coin, meaning they've made so much of it about them. And you write about that in the book,

“what's your perspective? I think most people think, oh no, Eagle Maniacs are very confident”

people who aren't afraid to fail. I'm not sure at all. In fact, I tell people, I had this very

simple. Until you get over yourself, you're never going to be a high successful person because

it's not about me. You're a great communicator. Get over yourself. It's all about the audience. That's right. So when you look at failure, the reason people don't do failure is because they haven't got over themselves well. And the other day, this is so true. I started writing this there. So it's brand-new. It's it's fresh. So I hope it's good. But I don't know if it's good because I'm just working on it. I'll tell you. Okay. Thank you. Here's what I think. When I think

of failure, I ask myself, do you want to get in the game and fail or do you want to sit in the bleachers and fail? That is good. And so it's kind of like, do you want to watch your self fail? Because you're not in the game. Because sitting in the bleachers has already just qualified you. There's no win. There's no one ever had a beer in a hot dog in one. You know what I'm saying? So so, but the reason we don't get into the game is because we don't want to lose. Because we

want to look good in the eyes of people. And so we want that kind of favor. So any time I'm concerned about how I looked at others, yes, I'm in trouble. Not because I'm not trying to give a told this regard for just doing things you want to do. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that I have to realize that with one trifling small exception in this world, the world's composed of other people. There's John, but then there's billions. And I got to get off of John on the billions to be able to

now, to now be comfortable with the fact that I'm not always going to hit it. Linda who's been with

me for 39 years is my personal assistant all the way up. I drove up from where I lived up here for this. And so we had about a narrow and half conversation. And she said something very interesting.

“She said, John, I think your secret sauce. She said, I, okay, she said your secret sauce”

is that you don't have to win, but you do have to learn. And she said, you jump the fence very quickly. What's over there? You're curious. I want to find out what I don't know yet, because when you know you don't know the thing you know, you need to know more than you know. And so, but she said, your ability to not, she said,

because it's not about you. And she said, and that's your secret sauce. Well, I don't know if that's my secret sauce, but I do know this. I do know this. That when people hold back almost every time, they don't hold back because what's the right decision they hold back,

“because what's going to happen to me. Right. Or what are people going to think about that?”

Exactly. Right. Since you say that, because I was with just so timely this book is. And by the way, make sure you guys go get the book. And we're going to talk about it again at the end, specifically the book itself. I was working with one of the PGA tour players that I work with a golfer. Yeah. And I, he, he literally said to me, I'm afraid I'm going to miss the pot. And I said, no, you're not. He goes, what do you mean? He says, no, I'm afraid I'm going to miss the pot.

And I said, I can promise you, you're not afraid of me. It's just a ball not going in a hole. It's not the end of your life. I said, you're afraid of what people are going to think about

you if you miss the pot. Totally. Right. And then, and here's what, here's what, here's the deal.

If you're on the petty rate, you're all by yourself. Right. And you're petty. Do you have, oh, oh, my gosh, I'm afraid of what Mrs. That doesn't even enter your mind. Correct. It's right. It's like, I was in the program at Pebble Beach for six straight years. And my brother and I were talking when they said, John doesn't make you nervous. I mean, you got thousands of people out there. They're watching you play golf done to make you nervous. I said, not at all. He said,

why not? I said, because they didn't come to watch me play golf. Get over yourself. There was one person that went to Pebble Beach and said, what? I'd like to see Fatman John Swing. They came to see, they came to see the pros. They came to see their, you know what they're wanting for Fat John? Would he put and get out of the way? So I could watch a real pot. What's the real plan? I want to watch somebody come from hit a golf ball. Well,

that's a different mindset. But if a person says they're afraid of missing the pot, they're afraid of what people will think because when they were on the pot, being green by themselves, they weren't afraid of missing the pot. 1,000%. So what does it mean? Help me frame the so I can help people even in my coaching. One of the things in the book,

“I think it's chapter two, is keep failure and success together? What does that mean?”

Well, first of all, I've never been able to talk about it. I mean, either.

Though, thank one of the things I'm very excited about this book. First of all, this is my third failure book. You understand? Yes. I wrote failings forward. I think it was my first failing book. Then I wrote, sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. And then I wrote this one. And so I said, well, why do you write three of you? I said, because I'm really good at it. Please, let me talk to you about failure. Success, I'm not sure. But failure, I'm really good.

I'm really good at failure in the process. So I've never heard of my talk about this. Failure and success are meant to be very close together. But our culture separates them. succeed. Don't fail. Do it right. Don't mess it up. And we put them as far apart as we possibly can. One's good, one's bad. One you've got to do. One you don't want to ever do. And we separate it. But think about it. There's no reality that at all. In my life, in your life, in everybody,

this part of this podcast, they've never had a time where they had three days of all success. And then on Thursday, they had two days of all failure. Success and failure are intertwined in everything that we do. And every month, you know, I've done this for over 30 years. I have a learning lunch where I sit down with somebody bigger, better, faster, smarter than me. And I ask them seven questions and one of the questions I ask them is what's the most important

lesson you've ever learned in your life? Now, I've done that for over 30 years. Do the math. That's three, four hundred people, different people I've talked to.

“Every time I ask them, what's the most important lesson you've ever learned in life?”

Every time, not sometimes, not most time. When they tell me their story, failure is in that story.

Incredible. I've never heard a success. Most important lesson I've ever learned

without some kind of a miss, a loss. Oh, my gosh, I woke up. I didn't have any idea. It's always in there. So, even at the core of your greatest moments, failure is there. So, here's why you have to keep it together. You need to keep success and failure together because, Ed, they balance each other out. That's so good. Yes. So, I'm over here. And I'm just on a roll. I might as touch. It's all gold success. Whoo! Touched down. Here we go.

I better keep failure right beside that because you want Bill Gates said success is a lousy teacher. It makes people think they can't lose. So, when I'm on this winning streak, oh, I better keep, I better keep failure right because if I keep failure close to my success, when I'm on a roll, it will give me humility. Yeah. And you've got to have humility to learn and be taught. True. So, with my success, I keep failure together because in my success, I have humility.

Let's go over to them. I'm in the ditch now. I'm failing. I'm screwing this whole thing up. I've got to keep success right beside that failure in my worst days because it gives me resiliency.

all of a sudden, it's a beautiful thing. Regardless of what state you're in. That is tremendous.

By the way, that is true. That could be an entire book. Like, it's just a philosophy. Seriously, you guys. I'm thinking, I'm watching you right now. I think you're better than I've ever seen you. I'm turning about like, you're articulation, you're communication, the tactical stuff.

“By the way, not time. No, no, no. Actually, the truth is, that's a pretty high compliment given”

you are considered by everybody I know. The world's greatest leadership expert for the last half century or more to say that you're better now. I want to ask you that. I'm framing that as a true compliment around failure. He said something to me a couple years ago that he said a lot of things in life that have stuck with me, but one of them that just blew my doors off, you said, "Ed,

my capacity to grow is greater than it's ever been before." Meaning, not only am I growing more

than I've ever grown before, and this was probably 75 at the time. I don't know probably around there. And you said, "Not only am I growing more, but my capacity to grow has been expanded." It's part of that because your perspective is your learning and that allows you to view failure differently than most people. In other words, are those things two things connected to you? Oh, they're very connected. And I'm in love with learning. I had somebody the other day say,

“"Because they say, "What do you love best?" I mean, you're a communicator, you're a writer,”

you're a networker, you're a leadership guy." They threw out about seven. And I said, "What's your other, and I said you didn't name any of my favorite things?" I said, "My favorite thing's learning." All right, so you want to gain change if you're your business. I could tell what has been for me, it has been for a long time. Quick books, Bill Pay. Look, if you run a business, you know it's just not what you do, but it's the time

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And I'm always in the top 5% sometimes. I have to have to have time to number one in the world.

And I mean, just play this game. Oh, here's your rank. Anyway, the reason I love it is it's a three-minute game. And when it's done, if I have a good game and puts me in the expert level, I only got about 25% of the words. What are you trying to do? Figure out a word that's a synonym or something? No, no. It's scrabbled letters and you make words out. Find the word. How many words can you get? God. It's called word-seek. Now, here's what I love.

And I keep asking myself, why am I so drawn to this game? I'm telling you this game. I'm never going to get there. And never going to get there. It's highly appealing to me. I know what it is. I want to say something. I know what it is. You show me a person that wants a achievement, but they don't want to be stretched in their life. They're going to be in trouble. I love the fact that when I'm done, there's no expert at all.

over them. There's something very appealing of never having arrived that it's a journey and it's

not a destination. And I can remember one of my books I wrote many years ago was called the success journey. And my publisher wanted to call it the destination to success. Yeah, you would do it. There's

“no destination. It's a journey. You never. And so I think there's a lot of that. If you want to”

constantly grow and learn, I think you look at failure as a terrific asset and not a liability at all. This is a tremendous conversation we're having right now. That thing you said about, there's really not a finish line and that you're constantly learning and growing. You've really, in my own life, you've challenged my own thinking about that. I began a business career and a pursuit with an idea of finishing. Of course. Truly. And then as I got around you,

it challenged my perspective about that to where not only have you inspired me, not to think that way anymore. But it's freed me up almost. Oh, it's beautiful. You can fly. You're right. Oh, no, no, you fly. See, and I've started off the same way. I thought, go out, do really well. Make your money. Yes. Build your house on the hill, retire, live happily ever after. You have no needs. No worries. So I think we all start off that way. And then I began to understand the fallacy of that whole

process. And so I used to think you do, you do the hard thing. So then it gets easy. And what I discovered is that's not true at all. It isn't. You do the hard thing. And if you do it really well, guess what you get. Something harder. You do, you finish hard. And you get, oh my gosh, harder.

And you keep climbing harder. And here's what happens. Respect is only earned on difficult ground.

Significance is only taken on difficult ground, Ed. And if you don't have it. So therefore, the fulfillment, the joy, the adrenaline stuff that you want in your life happens in the fact that you're going where you've never been before. You're learning things you've never known before. You're doing things that you've never tried before. And you know, you know, you aren't going to do it all right. You know that you're going to have to take detours. You know you're going to have

set back. But it doesn't matter because you're out there where you're supposed to be with greatness is designed for somewhere out there the cause for a pioneer. Not for somebody who said there and said, you know what? I got it figured out. I've tell people, when you think you got it, you're going to get it. I can absolutely attest that this is true. I've watched it with my friends over and over. You know, we're having, this is, this is the conversation I've not heard on a podcast

“before. And it's so important. This is one of these things where if you're listening to you should”

go back and listen to this again. Even those of you that are doing, you think you're doing well. That's why don't you think so many people get to that exit in their company or that point and they're like, it's, it's not what I thought it would be. It's because it's there isn't really a finish line for these things and it is disappointing to get there. I don't think it causes you to maybe make poor decisions if you think it's going to end. You know, you might cut corners or do

things like that unless instead of being in a pursuit of something, do you agree with that? Well, totally. I could, I could, I could, I'll tell you what disappointment is. Disappointment is thinking that there's a place where there's happiness. It's not a destination. It's not a place. It's not a place. It's not a place. It's not, it's not something I did. It's not something a place I arrived. It's what I'm doing. You know, I mean, is there anything more boring than a person

has that been there done that mindset? Oh, there's that been there. You just like I said, you're, God, let me leave you a squick as I can. Yeah. Because you, immediately, this, that's like experts. It's like experts. I mean, when people talk to me about your leadership next time, that expert, the more you know, the more you know you don't know. And the more you know,

“you don't know, the more you know you need to know. And no matter how much you know,”

there's more out there. And when I remember when I wrote my first leadership book, I thought, I'll write a very good leadership book and I'll have done leadership. Why wrote that leadership? Look at what that couldn't be awesome with you. And I thought, oh, a pan. There's more that I could write about leadership. Again, once you keep that mindset of learning, growing, it's kind of like you think you're going to figure it out and you think you're going to get to the end,

but you're not going to figure out and you're not going to get the end. And then one day,

you wake up and say, I never want to figure it out. I never want to get to the end because it's in the

chase. I'm a million percent. This is right. By the way, I've just lived it. But you were the first person

I do. I, you're, another level, you're another level where you, we've flown around together. I've been fortunate to fly with him in the way he flies is very nice. But we'll, when you get on the

“plane with him and there's other people around. It's like, okay, what, what are you working on?”

What do you need help with? This is what I'm working on. These are my questions. And I've been, he and I are the two weirdos because it's, I'm point inevitably, everybody else eventually crashes out and it's John and I together going back and forth. And I'm just, I'm just learning. But I guess the thing that, I think on failure, maybe you cover it in the book. So I'd like you to talk about this. How do you, because, you know, not all failure is good. Is it? So like, how do you know, or is all

good? Meaning you have this chapter in the book, challenge my thinking on this, or explain it to me. You say, "No, there's a difference in a good mess and a bad mess." Huge. What's that mean? Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you brought it up head. Again, just like keeping failure and success together,

I never heard anybody talking about it about it. John wrote it. Yeah, I have not either.

I'm going to tell you something. I've never heard anybody talking about this. Okay. But there is a difference between a good mess and a bad mess. All right. A good mess is still a mess. But you've got a little closer. A bad mess. You've got a little further. It's, it's like this. A good mess is when I have a failure. And by the way, you never know what you have a good mess or bad mess based on what the failure is. It's your response to the

“failure, the determines the good mess and bad mess. Nobody talks about this, but watch this. What's this?”

So let's say, I messed up it up. So what are those? Wow, that didn't work. I got to make adjustments. Good mess. Now I'm said, oh, I've learned that. Don't do that anymore. Change hero. I make adjustments. That's goodness. A bad mess. I make excuses. That's a bad mess. You can't. What do you do with

excuses except make more excuses? I've never known anybody go from excuse to success. I've never

had me. I know they go from failure to success, but not because excuses takes awareness. When I make excuses, I personally say, I don't want to be aware of what could be out there. And you can't fix what you don't know it needs to be fixed. And so therefore, we model and that's a bad mess. We're staying that. We stay in that. But it's the response to the failure that determines whether the mess is a good one or bad one. So when people say, I failed,

okay, I got it. I feel a lot of times. Let's talk about your response. What's your response? Because when these guys are saying the greatest lesson I ever learned had failure in it, it's because they had good misses. What people say, I'm done. It's over. It's terrible. It's because they had bad misses. Outstanding. Doesn't that make sense? Yes. There's a part of the book which I'm going to let you guys read in the book about kind of the victim identity that we take

on that goes down this road also. It's earlier in the book than this part. Yeah, I've had some bad messets too. I've had some bad messets where I pointed fingers and didn't learn from it. And a lot of times you end up repeating that mistake in another form if you don't take something. You either learn from the failure, which is a good mess, or you leave the failure, which is a bad mess. And most people they want to leave the scene as quick as they go. Oh my gosh, what happened? What made it? The moment

you leave, you learn nothing. Leaving is a bad mess because it doesn't let you, you didn't stay around long enough to learn. That's so good. And just have to, I tell people all the time, you got to hang with your failure a while. This is, this is good. There's a lot to learn here. You know, don't, don't, don't get off the opportunity. I'm writing table too quickly. Let the surgeon do the work. The other thing you don't do, at least in my observation, I need to do better at this.

But I want to talk about leading other people through failure, meaning one thing I've watched, we've, you know, I'll just leave it at that. But I don't see you when you course correct or coach my observation of you, you don't seem to be judging the person's failure. And even when some of them have been some, you know, failures, you know, judgment failures, we'll say, right? So how do you lead somebody, whether that be business or a child of yours, and maybe it's different in those

“two and take your time on either one? But what, what's your philosophy on leading others through a failure?”

Well, first of all, all I have to do is look at my failures. And it takes me off the judgment

role real quick. I mean, my gosh, I haven't had. In fact, I think highly successful people probably fail more than unsuccessful. Because they keep trying. They're out there attempting. And so if you're, hey, if you attempt a thousand times, you're going to have several hundred misses. If you attempt ten, you may only have six or seven. So I think the effort creates a lot of possibilities for failure. But when I look at that failure, what I understand is, and try to help other people through

my failures. Okay. I mean, Ed, I've heard you talk. And when you, when you do some of your teaching,

“you're a master, and you can't talk it about the hard lessons that you learn in that process”

that they're brought. So you do, to tell people you have failed, and then they look at you and see where you are. Yes. Now, here's what I tell you. When successful people talk about their failures, then failure gets tagged with successful people. It's guy. It's just good. When you, when you, but when you watch people that have failed, talk about their failures, oh my god, don't want to do that. That's a loser for sure. And so what I say is, when you're successful, the more you talk about

failure, the more you help people see it from a perspective of positivity. And so you do a great it because here's what happens. Okay. Ed, I join your team, and you're, you're a highly successful, and I'm just starting out on a newbie, and I hope I do it right. You're talking about all your successes,

and then I go out. And of course, I don't do it right. You're never good the first time. You're never

good the second time. It's like your daughter. What happens when you have five calls, and they're all

“knows. So you're, you're not even good. Well, immediately, I thought, you and I thought, well,”

look at Ed, oh my gosh, he's so good. And then what am I to? I just qualify myself. Yeah, man. I just said, well, I just, I don't have his gifts. I don't have his, I don't get his opportunity. And so what happens is, when you talk about the success you discourage people, when you talk about failure, you encourage people, especially when you're a successful failure, gosh, that's so true. It's so encouraging. It's just, it's just, it's because, you guess why,

when you talk about your failures, but I see that you've overcome them. So when I fell, I said, well, Ed did that, but look, he overcame, I can overcome them too. It's a whole different mindset, and I wish that successful people. I wish that we talk about their failures more. So do I. Because, because that's where the learning and the growing is. And I'll tell you what else, I'm 78. There are people saying, be kind of like the highlight of my life. I wish they could

say me in a 28. Yeah. My great, if I could have one gene-a wish, it would be, I wish you could have seen me communicate a 28. I wasn't that good. I wish you'd, because they would be greatly encouraged. What they're doing is they're saying a man who has done 50 plus years of personal daily growth every day. And so yes, it's kind of like in the beginning, you're not as bad as people. Thank you are. But in the end, you're really not as good as people. Thank you are either. And I have this

great desire to let everybody know, I wasn't really that good. And you just have to understand, I made a commitment to intentionally grow and develop myself. But I wasn't that good. I wasn't. And if they would have seen me, they would have seen, then they would see, not the end result, but they would see what growth will do for a person. But John, I've watched it in the last 10 years that I've been your friend. I've actually watched it at this stage of your life that you

are getting better. Is there in those 50 years? Is there a particular situation where you failed that you could maybe share that did cause you to grow or make a pivot or look at failure differently? Do you think of one? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot. I mean, when I was 40, I did inventory, kind of that midlife kind of, you know. And I got a little discouraged, because I thought I'm not quite as far as I thought I would get. And so I did the personal inventory, why am I not as far

as I got. And I came to a conclusion about three days later that I really, I had spent a lot of time on my personal growth in development, but I hadn't spent enough time on developing my team. And I said Maxwell, you, hey, you, if you don't grow your team, they can't go with you. Guys, we tell you something. Factors made a big difference in my life. Just talking to one of my producers, he says I just ordered with factor. Why? He's got big goals just like you and I do

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sachets plus 10% off your order. Seriously, this is one of those offers you wish you jumped on sooner. That's imatehealth.com/ed and use code ed for a free welcome kit. 5 free travel sachets plus 10% off your order. imatehealth.com/ed code ed. These statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration. This product is not intended to diagnose treat cure prevent any disease. And so I made a pivot and I said I'm going to really work on growing and developing my

team and that was one of the best decisions I've ever made. But it was one of those times at half time where I had to come and ask myself am I willing to now make this big transition? Right. And what it goes back to the law of the intercircle of the 21 laws, those closest to you

determined the level of your success. And it was at that moment I thought I will never hit my

level of success unless I have great people around me. So I had better. I had better. You know, we can only grow so much in personal capacity but we can grow a lot more in team capacity. And so the idea, partner shipping and team work, there's something really beautiful about developing a great team until that one and one doesn't really after well equal two and it just three. There's a compounding in there of that. Do you wish your last book we're talking about

you know more like public leaders and stuff and do you feel like if I'm a leader I want you to give advice to leaders out there and you have had a failure or a setback or a mistake. One of the things I wish for like in our public discourse like our politicians is for a leader to say made him a mistake. I got this one wrong. I apologize. I'm going to course correct this. My intent wasn't to do this but I blew it. I called I missed a call there and we're going to get

it right next time. It's almost like it seems like in our culture today failure is such a bad thing that if you even admit one you're you know somehow you're disqualified forever. I wish do you feel that way too I wish more of a and so if you're speaking to someone who runs a company or leads a family which is a leader a mother and let's listen to this. It's okay to acknowledge you've had a failure or a setback or made a mistake and that's a redemptive thing to do

“an important thing to do for both you and the person's hearing you. It's it's a two-way redemptive thing”

when I admit my failures I get in touch with my humanity which allows me now to be able to really grow so it it's good for me but it's also good for the other person you know it's funny because I remember last year when I was when we had a couple of candidates running for president I told Margaret before the first presidential debate. I know I'm going to vote on and she said what are you going to vote on before? I said the first person in the debate that looks in the

camera and said I did I made a mistake. Yeah I didn't do that right. Oh I wish I I wish I could have that. I wish I could do that decision over again. I said the first person shows any kind of authenticity any kind of in touch with who they are that doesn't blame the other person for all the problems in the world. I said I'm just going to and I just sat there and I'd be a long way. Sorry I'm just I'm voting for you just just one time just tell me one time

of course there was no there was no and and you and I both know that is first of all

untrue we're all human and never to it's unhealthy it's unhealthy because we set a standard

yes that is not livable by anybody and now we're instead of us having freedom we're under incredible bodies and stress and it does all kind of emotional things that people don't want.

“That is such an important thing because it's not modeled you're not seeing that from”

most public leadership right now yet the leaders that I've worked with in my life that I admire the most have done exactly what you say to do I messed that up I'm so sorry please forgive me I'm going to get it right next time and people just can hardly wait to forgive you I actually think ironically kind of like what you said about overall failure I actually got much closer to that person as a leader it almost is if that setback or mistake the decision they made that didn't go

the right way was actually an odd blessing long term because their acknowledgement of it built a level of trust that didn't exist when everything was perfect am I under circle they know my strengths and they know my weaknesses they know my best victories and they know my biggest losses and I want to tell you they're close to me because they know my biggest losses. Yep you also told me when I got to know you better which is just for what it's worth

I just want to say this back to you this is a much I am listening you told me hey you know reveal your imperfections to people you'll become much closer to them if you try to appear to be

freeing to not try to have to live up to some standard that I know's not accurate right I know that

it is I've got a hard question for you on failure so we're talking about this whole failure thing

“sometimes do you worry at all that as we embrace failure that and I think you'll know what I mean”

when I say this so once you speak to it there's this whole book you've written it's gold and obviously just even the nuggets that we've talked about today but can you go a little too far on that where you accept failures in your life you know what I'm saying where you know what I mean like I want to have that I want to have a guard rail on this to some extent because some people take this and just go well then I don't have to have any successes I don't have to have any breakthroughs

and you know what I'm saying that doesn't become part of a culture so speak to that. Well what I say all the time is failure should move you and when we when we become comfortable with failure we're in trouble so failure failure failure should move you failure is your friend not because you had the failure it's your friend because it says you better change something and people change when they when they heard enough they have to when they learn enough they

know how to and when they receive enough they're able to and so that that's the change pattern to be so so when I fail I am I'm embracing failures of friend because it raised his hand and said John wrong way you don't you don't want to go here and now it it it it creates awareness failure treated correctly makes me aware of changes I need to make failure respectively incorrectly is when I look at it and instead of saying I'm aware and I must change I look at I say

I just can't do any better and making excuses and so by but it's a catalyst failure is a catalyst to either have a person change for the better or it's a catalyst for a person to say I'm a victim and that's this way it's going to be and that's my life and I can't help. What's the Bible say about failure? Well the Bible's beautiful about failure I mean think about it

first of all the Bible never had failures there are only two people in the Bible

that there's nothing about their life in failure there's only two great ones and that's Joseph and Nehemiah there are the only two biblical characters we we look at their life and you're every other biblical character David yes of course there's some murder and it's not obvious

“one and remember this God looked at David and said you're a man after moan heart”

now David's front line people in his kingdom didn't say that God said that I mean God looked at a guy that we would look at say he's not fit to be in this thing and he said you're a man after moan heart I mean look at look at Moses and the great men and women of leaders honestly they all had failure not like the Bible doesn't try to cover that don't say the Bible's you know what do things to be beautiful about God's word and God is is he's not

transactional at all I love about I mean God doesn't say Maxwell measure up and but guess I think we'll go to the gym right he's transformational he doesn't work on a transaction it's it's I don't earn anything the very fact of forgiveness is a fact that God knows how to handle failure well in our lives and it's so beautiful it's so beautiful that's very comforting to me same here brother it makes me emotional it's not me too I know it's

“me as because we have a wonderful God that's what makes me emotional thank God for God's grace”

hey so somebody says if I don't have God's grace I don't think I can make I shouldn't explain something if you don't have God's grace you don't make you do not don't make it it's not from all of you are entertaining a possibility that possibility out of your life sir it isn't going to happen you you it's just it's a treasure in my life and I'm like something happens when we do this I don't know what it is

but like it's add I do interviews you do interviews you're the best interviewer oh my God

now listen me the first time I remember first time we did it out in Los Angeles so we sat down

and it clicked yes and I walked away and I said it clicked because this man you have you have a great gift of intuition and discernment and when you're with people you see the person but you see what's behind and you are a great interviewer because you don't say the obvious you go behind the curtain and you pull out the best in people and I think the better people that you interview the better interview you should get because

I don't mean to say this we're going back and forth calling you you do that to me you do that for me myself like I you know what one thing about leadership you guys is when you know someone

truly believes in you it's so I like I feel that from you it's a game changer right it's it's

one of those elements it's different I even think with our children loving our children is obviously

“it's entry into the game I mean that's what you're supposed to love your children but believing”

them and them knowing you believe in them or as a leader in a company that's a different thing oh it's the greatest gift we could ever give anyone is the same gift that God gave us unconditional love wow we were yet sinners yeah God loves us not when we got our act together not when we all of a sudden made a better presentation while we were yet sinners while we were already screwed up while we were all you see God God doesn't God doesn't fix us to changes he changes us to fix us

oh there's a lot of difference between those two you know when you have the camera guys going amen they're not you know you're you're spitting it truth can I ask you one more thing because we're going to wrap it up I just want to ask you about this one thing that is another thing you have not in the book yeah um you want others to succeed were you this way when you were young let me tell you what I mean I want everyone to understand this one time he gave us speech and I thought

that was just incredible every time he speaks and but I we were I was with him afterwards I said that was just my blown and he goes oh here's the note you should give the speech you do it better than I would oh I

“remember that you and I and you did it better than me absolutely untrue that I did it better than you”

however there's a lot of this kind of protection thing with leaders or just people in life because I think they think if you succeed I'm going to fail so I want to wrap this part at the end around failure you look at it completely differently than that how do you look at it I want more for you than I want from you and and when I remember we we in Nashville yes and then and I just finished talking and we had me sit beside and I and I just kind of put the speech together and really

I it's unreal yeah well and and I think I looked at you and I thought here you have it you'll make a better and I can I take I know you will make a better here's why if you gave me one of your speeches you'd make a better and it's not because I better it's because you already gave me a foundation yeah it's I already got what you got now if I get one little one more thing it just got better but I wouldn't have had that one whole thing if you wouldn't have given me the foundation

“and so I when I was young I played ball and I was I was very competitive and and I think”

I think there's a lot of things about competitive people that's a real advantage to them so I

am not anti-competitors but here's what I wanted to say in my own heart I had a major life change

when I lost that competitiveness and decided I would rather help other people succeed because if I win it's only one if they win it's a whole bunch and I just at this stage of my life yeah I get more joy out of out of someone else's success you do I mean got's but I've got a lot I've got stuff out of it I'm okay but but I just yeah I'd like to see people do well I know you do and I love you for it by the way the lesson there is that if someone else is

succeeding it doesn't mean you're failing and that's the one of the topics of failure that I wanted to make sure we we covered I just want to thank you this is such a tremendous conversation and real rare when I do the show that as we're doing it I'm thinking of people that I want to

share the episode with I always tell them it's make sure you share this is so many care about

I'm thinking right now of the people that I want to share this with beginning with my daughter who we talked about in the very beginning so I love you God bless you by the way the book you guys is how to get a return on failure you know you're getting it now fail smarter return stronger it is it's tremendous he's he's just he's the best thank you God bless you everybody share this episode max out

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