How Architects Are Redefining Beauty Brands Through Design, Storytelling, and Intentional Restraint

curator of interiors, furnishings, and lifestyles, hosted by Tiffany Woolie, an interior designer,

“and a style enthusiast, along with her serial entrepreneur husband Scott.”

Eye Design Lab is your ultimate design podcast, where we explore the rich and vibrant world of design, and its constant evolution in style and trends. Today, on Eye Design Lab, we're joined by Bradley and joining Skags. Founders and Creative Directors of Skags Creative, the agency behind some of the most refined brands in beauty, fragrance, and hospitality.

Trained as architects in Europe and guided by form follows function and less is more, Skags Designs brands from the inside out, shaping not just how they look, but how they're remembered. Welcome to the Eye Design Lab podcast, today we're joined remotely by the design duo behind Skags Creative. We'd like to welcome Bradley and Yonina Skags to the podcast today. Would you introduce yourselves to our listeners?

“Sure, tell us a little back yourselves, because you have an interesting story, you're originally from Germany, correct, and started in architecture?”

Oh, I'm originally from Iceland, but then I started serving me, and then I lived in Luxembourg with Bradley for three years, and now we moved to Sciences, Go and Now, we're here in New York.

Amazing cross-country and from Europe too, so tell us where you're loved for being creative and obviously design was really introduced in what set the tone for your career.

So we both met in architecture school, and therefore design was a part of our lives before we met. Certainly crystallized in architecture school, and then the agency was born out of kind of necessity in a way, because Yonina was finishing her master's or MFA and freelancing and had a ton of work, and I was an architect then, but I was doing a lot of work in the early days of 3D CAD. OK, and it led to a project with NASA to do a virtual tour of 10 facilities in the US and take that as a web experience, and so with her doing their master's degree and

me doing that, it was like, we just, the agency kind of formed out of that, so it's just always been our thing. So your architectural was more in commercial? Yeah, it was at least there in Europe. It was more urbanism and planning in California in San Francisco, it was, I worked for a firm that did a lot of work in Silicon Valley with check companies. What a great time to, you know, come alive into that background, you know, the design world so much so much innovation. Again, it was right during the dot com totally started and blew up, and it was a pretty exciting time down there, but obviously in that part of the world, everything evolves around tech and at least in California, there was a good shooting line aspect to it too, but it was New York when he moved here.

“That we really got into more hospitality and that led us into beauty and peace and our sweet spot for 15 so plus years, but you mentioned NASA, so you were doing, you said, 3D or what was it you were doing for NASA?”

So it was the project to him two friends, you wrote a grant and it was to do a virtual tour of all 10 NASA facilities and then build a web experience where you could tour them. And it was the time when, for time the art come out where you can stitch together a set of photos to build a reality you could pan around in. And they were both scientists and had started to develop a curriculum around it for children to teach in schools.

But you could basically navigate it by a different topic, by location or by.

That's interesting. What period of time was that you were doing that work, what years? It was the reason why I asked because I'm going to say it was the early 2000s. My company we were doing a lot of work for NASA, but really up at Cape Canaveral doing the films and so forth for the visit to center there. And then we were doing a lot of sort of documenting a lot of the NASA like they had an area up at Cape Canaveral called the Graveal.

I think we stopped that actually. What's that?

“I think we shocked that as part of the whole process because we did all of them.”

You know, you could be inside labs, you could be on sites 10-millimeter or you could be inside. Oh, amazing. I'm sure you could be all kinds of places. But it was right around that period of time because we were just afraid to launch it.

And then 9/11 happened and it never saw the light a day.

She sounds. Really? Yeah. All that work. So yeah.

You ended up living two years to do it. Really? Oh, yes. Does it live in infamy somewhere in a hard drive? Yeah.

I hit by a gun and a hard drive in the front. I don't see you all. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Right.

Yeah. Maybe something. It would be fun to bring it back given what technology is today and what you could probably do. Right. Exactly.

It would be. It really would be.

And just to see how far things have come.

You're doing?

“And I think what I find so fascinating is that you started with such an architecture background.”

Obviously, which is a love of design and creativity. And you, as your creative processes evolved, you've got all the way to like photography and product development, which is part of like Scott's passion world. How did that pivot come about? A stilater.

Wait. Anna. With an iron plant. A stilater to do their frequency. Well, as of now, for stage friggers.

Yes. And as in, though, they, I mean, if it's Tommy Yelfinger or D.K. N.Y. We did Tom Ford. Like a quiet little part, sorry. And none of them are involved with the process.

They're just glistened their name at them. They're baked the juice. And then we had to create the story around it. And we did that for a lot of references that you know today. So that was sort of the pivot point.

But you, you moved to New York and your architects, correct? Yeah. So what point did you realize, or how did you go from being an architect to designing, you know, bands and head campaigns and packaging? I mean, you go hand in hand. Was there someone you met?

You bumped into? No. How do you jump from one to the other? It happened because you mean a finished school and really didn't like being an architect. And we were living in Luxembourg, then.

And it was a guy who was working for, we shared a space and they did this. This art publication of the Luxembourg art scene. And they produced a little monthly guide. And they needed somebody to help them lay it out. And you need it.

It's like, I'll try it. And she's like, I really love this. This is this is graphic design. This is what I want to do.

“So that's what she went back and did her MFA and.”

And for me with the down to the thing and the digital part. It was something I just loved and they kind of just all dove till together. So he has to in the beginning. Scags was very much a graphic design shop. But as we grew and had different clients, especially we got to New York.

I'm sure you was thinking about a stay water. It started to evolve more into. Storytelling and branding. We're on the. Baker's home.

Pack it in. I'll go back. So you say you go from an architect to graphics design.

Who was like your first client that.

You got your thoughts. Microsoft. Microsoft. So you're talking a big. A major company.

Yeah. So yeah. Did you do branding for them? Did you do packaging for them? They had a product.

This is a way back when it's here. It was called replay TV. I was a press. I remember that. I do remember.

Yeah. The predecessor to Tvo and all of that. Exactly. We were. We don't.

I'm going that project. The packaging for it. The instruction is everything. Giveaways. Every time.

But I have to ask, how did you get awarded a project like that? Did you have a contact at Microsoft? Well, yeah. Like everything. Like that's who you know.

Do you know, right? Is that the truth? So we had a. There's a woman. Is she went dinner in the.

The famous. You've got a job there. That's how we got pulled into it. Yeah. What?

It's not almost pulled. Let's see. I'm going to do this. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

It's. It's wild to me that you go from something. You know, Microsoft, which is so. I don't. I don't want to say the word is.

I don't want to mean it's more structural. I guess.

Can't necessarily see.

So how did that evolution evolve for you?

Like, what was your timeline? Um, it. It. It is kind of an interesting question when you frame it that way. But it was sort of for us, I guess, the national progression because.

You know, architecture is a design field where you. You study scale, right? Right. Right. The urban size down to like a door knob and.

“I think the only thing that comes close to is probably industrial design.”

When you think about it that way. It's terms of scale. So the principles apply to everything. Right. I do make the pivot wasn't crazy.

No. But it was sort of the organic nature of it. We were chasing two projects in New York. And absolutely, we started the agency. Most of our clients, we do architects with engineers.

Or, for instance. Or furniture. Okay. Yeah. Because they knew that we could talk to their talk.

Yeah. I'm sure it was the nice way to rely on. Yeah. And I don't know if you're familiar with a brand called vitra. No.

But they. They're a European contract manufacturer. They're a product manufacturing company.

“They have all the rights to eams stuff in Europe.”

Okay. Okay. The class that's right. Yeah. We really wanted to work with them.

And it became clear that we were not going to be able to. Until we had a office in New York. So. We had a small space. We called them up.

We're in New York. Like, okay. Let's start it this way. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

We're for such a crazy. It is crazy. That important right. Yeah. You did that address.

Yeah. And then like you were seeing the essay water thing. The bottom one. Who. You know, it was had in the former DJ editor of his style magazine.

And she do some people. And you know, he started that work your way around. And that's how they water started. And then. That put us in the beauty.

Yeah. I got a cold call out of the blue from dip teak. They're e-commerce. Yeah. They're e-commerce.

They're first e-com real e-com sites.

And did your global digital for e-dears for sale? And then why what we're doing the teak? Somebody a shallotulberry had seen what went up the blue. Teak and I don't got a cold call from men. So basically, you were often running for sure.

You were. Yeah. And that really put us in beauty. And beauty is like I said by our sweet spot for 50 and plus years. So what was the most surprising.

You know, aspect of getting into this beauty category. You know, I noticed the photography and doing some of my own homework to discuss with you both today. Like the simplicity and highlighting a product versus all the, you know, all the other elements fascinated me. Like how you really have to, you know, have a goal. Yeah.

Well, I would say when we started in beauty. The companies wanted to, like, let's take shallotulberry for example. She just had her own path. Didn't care what anyone else was doing around her. What were your competitors?

You just had a vision. And we loved that.

And they were so organized and just amazing to work with.

But now we feel everybody wants to copy everybody who ever successful. That it's sort of the need to generation of companies that. Yeah. Why would you want to look like somebody else? Yeah.

We know. Yeah. We agree. And that's, you know, part of why we have even started the eye design podcast. Because in our background, you know, you have some of these cookie cutter home projects coming up for developers.

And I'm if I approach things the same way. Like, you need to stand out separate. You don't want to just blend in. Yep. But I would say to that back when it was Charlotte and Diptique, this was really the rise of e-commerce at that time.

Social media wasn't really there yet. Right. You have my space, right?

“So this, this whole saturation of influencers and all that stuff that happens today, which I think sort of exacerbates the situation with being a me too.”

Right. It wasn't there. So it was really really focused on the brand and what brand made brands important. Like, still think that applies. And a lot of our work today is helping brands understand who they really are at their core.

And how they should be, you know, like she said, beating to that drum beat rather than what everybody else is doing and trying to be like somebody else.

So as your main focus has it really been helping a brand develop their brand or just or developing the packaging after they've already kind of got a branding both. Yeah. It depends on where they are in their sort of cross cycle. You know, if they're young startups and it's really getting that positioning and messaging worked out and then how that translates in the packaging and the web and sort of things like that. And you're marketing and if you're more of a established company, it's who maybe has lost their way.

It's like trying to get them refocused and back on the right path. So take us through your process. So you're, so say you, you got this cold call from dip teak. So which is, you know, I, I'm very familiar with that brand, which is fragrance, but candles and a lot of, you know, home fragrance.

“You get that call, what does your process look like?”

Like compare, I'm comparing it to my process. What is that initial meeting that intake and what are the steps that go forward to bringing it to launch? Um, you want them to. Well, dip teak is a, let me just put it this way.

A lot of times when you talk to a brand like that, the first thing you do is kind of look at their website and they're talking about it.

Nine times that it's 10. They have a messaging problem. What they're saying and what they're portraying. Do not connect. And it's, you know, I get it.

Yeah.

“It's very hard, especially for a founder, brands.”

A for founders to get what's in their head out on on paper. Right. Translate. Yeah. It's safe.

I mean, let's see our section. Probably where you are, too. People have a vision of what their house wants to look like or something. But trying to get that out of their head and on the paper. Yeah.

It's a real skill, right? It is. And I love and appreciate when they do rely on experts to carry it on that vision. Yeah. So a lot of times it starts with that conversation about who they are and what they're saying and then.

Where they need to go from it and often they have particular needs and how they when they call you. How long does that process take for you to kind of come up with that next layer of vision and translation of there. Founder vision. Well, it takes several couple weeks, actually, three, four weeks typically. It's.

And it actually kind of came out of the fact that all these companies were coming to us. We can look at it and say like, it all have the same problem. So we started building a methodology around how to how to how to solve that. So it's interesting about it. We'll go ahead.

So it's called finish. It was interesting about it today is how we augment that process with AI to really do the research and find the patterns. And then we use our experience and our intellect to figure out what the signals in that pattern and that's interesting not because the amount of data that's out there and how you can use it to synthesize and understand which just gives us more time to focus on the creative side of it.

“What it means to the brand instead of dedicating, you know, a month to deep market research which is honestly not going to talk to even a fraction of the entire market of the brand really right so.”

It that's that's kind of where it's going right now. So interesting so is this where your principles form follows function was kind of born. No, that was formed a way back in architecture architecture school.

Learn about the bow house and me's and all those guys, right, but it's always just been to sort of in that and less is more it's always just pay to with a sort of.

More things we live by. So I noticed that in the photography for the products and you know as we're even having this conversation I'm thinking you know as my design process is bringing multiple things. To a single vision and you're kind of taking singular things and bringing it to a wider vision. That's sure to say often if it's a product or new product and if it's all about that product right if it's about the brand and maybe it's looking at the whole line of products and everything. The product photography really came out of the fact that it was we were just amazed. We'd ask brands for their assets and they would not either have none or what they had we're just also awful awful awful awful awful awful.

You know, do it that way and that was great because it actually.

“Really I think helps our creative be a bit stronger because everything aligns that you know the aesthetic that's set visually.”

You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more.

You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more.

You have to be a bit more.

You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more. You have to be a bit more.

I wanted to shoot for Nasslands Geographic, and then I got an arc's texture and it was no time to pick up the camera. I picked it back up when we lived in Europe. And then I put it back away when we were trying to build a company. And then this thing happened where it's like, let's, we need to start shooting, so I got it back out. And my way of course studio because it seems to have become a very big facet of what you do from a creative standpoint for brands, the photography that you're bringing to the table for these brands.

Yeah, that alone is like another, you know, creative business and design business that you've really mastered.

“In just definitely another business, and it's a business now, which I think is being heavily impacted by AI.”

It is, but... And I can up this character in a good way. No, I can play with what's AI and what's not. And how do you feel about that? How do you, you know? I think it's, I look at, we look at AI just like we look at Photoshop was, right? It's a tool.

I agree. And it's not going to do anything for you. You've got to understand how to use it. How a living works. Oh, yeah. Agreed. Yep. Right. And how texture and specality and all that sort of stuff goes together to make something have a form and a shape.

And I noticed that so much in your photography because like I said, you take a single item and yet there is so many different facets that you can focus on in that photography. That really speaks to the quality of the item.

“Yeah, I think when you look at my products, they're like little buildings, you know?”

Yeah. You kind of look at it like it's the same thing. Like how do you, the way you light a space or building? I know what this is about to mean to me. Like so much focus is taking in something so miniature. Because it was small, it's still got material. It's got color.

It has facet. It's got a form, a shape, so light is going to help define God. Right. Which you're trying to achieve is to make that object feel three-dimensional in a two-dimensional space. So as this photography component has taken on such importance in your creative work,

is there a particular campaign that your obviously a lot of these names are big names that we are speaking of? Is there a like a favorite one that really just, you know, tell us about that one. Yeah. And then the chart. And then we worked on a, as fragrance brand called Wishart Colbert, beautiful fragrances.

They're all inspired by music or an opera. Oh, how cool is that? And so if you look at the photography, each one, like there's knife thrower and there's Lulu and there's different ones. But what's interesting about is that they have their own opera story to it. So the photography is really about trying to pull each of those stories out.

And how that played into the bigger branding of the packaging and everything, with each having his own illustrative world of...

First of all, it looks like a personality.

And it was a moment where we had a lot of creative liberty where we could do what we wanted to do, and how to connect the photography to the graphic design and the layouts and the illustration. I think it's a great example of what's possible. What's the hardest part about the design process of... You know, not running into burnout or running out of ideas.

Because you're dealing with so many different brands and so many different products. You've got to be unique and original with each one.

Take the chance and beat different and be who they really need to be. And not like somebody else. I mean, our biggest frustration is when they don't listen. And sounds like life. Yeah.

And we actually have to...

We have never done this before.

Well, a few years back, we were working with a... We started with company and they would not listen to us. They wanted to be exactly like the direct competitor. You can't do that. I mean, we gave where everything that we had done and then we said we can't.

“We don't want you to fail, but I think...”

Well, you're able to find somebody else. When you were able to overcome that or you were able to pitch them... Yeah, it would be open minded. Well, it was a very tough decision to make, but yeah. But it's only we've all learned how to lay and eat twice and all these...

Yeah. But the route, actually failed. They're not our own planning work. Because we're doing exactly what the competition was doing. Exactly.

I'm in really everything. Well, one part of your business is about the creative process. You know, in creating and coming up with the ideas and the design. But then there's the other aspect of the business of your business that you now have created all these ideas or the branding. But you've got to pitch it and sell it where the client's going to believe in it.

So the trick to that is, I think you kind of relate to this too. You're as much as the designers you have therapist. Go totally, yeah. And a lot of time. And hold her.

Yeah. But what's the speaker, right? Right. It is. And understanding where their pain points are, what keeps them up at night.

And then you rationalize against that. So you were saying that that that that that that happens. So this solves that problem directly because of this, this and this. They can't reshoot that often because they set it themselves. Right.

Right. But obviously getting to that point can be can be tricky, especially when they.

“We always joke that there's two types of clients, right?”

Those can know that they want, but not what they need and those can know what they need and not what they want. Right. And the first step is figuring that out. There's a third type, too. The ones who don't pay.

Right. Well, it's actually, it's actually, I hate to say this, but the wealthier. The people behind the company are they list of the. It's a great and more upon. Yeah.

They do, they want more company control. I, that was like kind of leading me to like as creative directors. How do you protect the integrity of these concepts while collaborating? Well, we often.

You always give them what they want and then you give them what they need.

But like what you think they need. Right. So it is why they coming to you in the first place. Yeah. And then it often, it ends up that they, okay, that makes sense.

I get it down and they go with what you're talking about. Right. If you just, I think in the beginning, we were naive.

“But we would just like, you have to do like this, you know, and I'd be like,”

you know, you kind of. You didn't realize that the mess that had to come along with that. Yeah. I was just part of learning and growing. Yeah.

Understanding. It really is. It is.

I always say in the beginning of my meetings when I'm presenting.

I said, I'm here to plant seeds. I want you to listen. Take it in. You brought me in to bring you in fresh perspective. A new, you know, vision.

And we'll get to the same end result, but just hear my thoughts. And they do eventually always come back back to the beginning. That's exactly it. Yeah. 100%.

Yeah. The creative process, right? So as a couple, how do you balance in your collaboration and your roles in? Yeah. Probably still figuring it out.

It's got an eye. Yeah. So it's one of you more creative in one more business or you both do it. Well, you know, well, she does our direction. I do creative direction.

That's how it's started on there. What's more strategic. Now it's just to be me more strategic and she does more in the creative.

Now you've got to pitch it and sell it to the client.

Yeah, that's what we're going to. What's that? Brad, it's me. But it's it's an elaborative to agree. Okay.

It just, I mean, honestly, it depends on the client and the project and what's happening. Right? Nothing's, you know, that's the thing about the creative world, right? Just to be slow. Yeah, you have to.

It's always different.

“And that's what I think we both really love the darkness.”

We don't get up every day doing the same thing. Same thing. Yeah, yeah. It's always different. It's unique.

Yeah. They experience it. And it makes it fun. Agreed.

Are there any particular projects that you really get excited about or more excited about?

Pocketing is the most fun for us because we're eye on text. So we can. That's what we want. We do, um, we just launched all. Primary tuckaging.

Yeah. So if it's simple, we have to design from scraps and not just take something that is already made. Chuck. So you're designing bottles.

Hmm. Like we launched a lip gloss line back in November. Um, the packaging is 1% custom. That is so exciting. And I can't imagine where your architecture backgrounds collide with that.

I mean, what a process. Yeah, it's fun. Because like I said, they're like little buildings. You know, they are like little buildings. So do you actually create a prototype like with your hands with paper?

Are you just kind of like. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's actually funny.

You bring that up because anybody who works for us the first thing they get when

I walk in the office is a notebook. And you have to draw. Yep. Yes.

“Before you get on the computer, you have to sketch.”

I know I actually like want somewhere on one of the podcasts. They said something about doodling is part of like the creative process, too. Like doodling is is a sure sign of somebody who's got that creative. But it's funny like, you know, young kids who work with us. They come out of school like they don't have paper pencils.

I know. No. And they just get around the computer and I spend all this time going in circle on like start out sketching first and then you'll see it. And a lot of times if we're trying new forms.

I mean, I'll, it's not there fault, but it's more the schools have stopped to teach someone to cut things out. So for the past. Like how to plant these. When I say sack don't mind.

They look up and you're like, what is that? Well, it's really the hand drawing is really kind of dying on. And I think they're so beautiful. I still, you know, presenting with a hand drawing. I still feel like that sets a story.

That computers just can't, you know, the renters. I just think it's more efficient, too. If you have a sketch that you've done, then to go in a computer, you've, you've.

“Well, and there's more heart connection to it, I believe, too, which is, you know, I'm sure”

something that really sets you guys apart as well. So you've, you've, you've, you've designed it branded for a lot of iconic and big names. Is there a brand out there that you wish you could have rebranded because you felt the branding didn't hit the mark? Well, you could have, would have loved to have seen it done differently.

Have you ever thought about that? Oh, yeah. I would think all of that. I couldn't name one now. Oh, what's wrong with that? Matt of the microphone, which one? The, Mary, no.

It's on our list. Just tell me, don't know, list. Now, the first one. Oh, Laura Galler. Yeah.

So you could do a little better. Yeah. Yeah. There's some, you know, I currently great brands that, you know, they have little struggles here and they're like all of them. But I just feel like sometimes seeing it at, at the end of, in the same

Do it again, Michigan, you know, and I think it really has to do with social media. And that's all they pay attention to. Right. And they're not looking at like legacy. It's all about the temporal nature of social.

It's all disposable. It's all disposable. But the brand isn't. Yes. Yes.

Yes. So, yeah. How do you move beyond that so that you're, building something that has longevity? And I think it, like, I'm sorry to say, again,

that it comes back to being true who you are as a brand and not trying to be like everybody else. Yes. So that's a lot of conversations I would think with the founders really too. Yeah. But I mean, that's all predicated by having a great product, right? A great formulation.

If the product isn't there, then there's no point doing anything else.

“And have you ever had to say, like, this product just isn't for us?”

Yeah. You have something when you say it a lot of times they know it already. And they're just looking for that product. And then it's like, but look, it's not the end of the world. You can reformulate.

Right. And maybe if you reformulate, you can say some money. Maybe there's newer technology out there that you can use for better delivery systems or whatever or for absorption or who knows. But it's so interesting to me now, you know, as you're career taking on this element path to beauty.

Because I'm absolutely flabbergasted at the amount of beauty products available. And everybody has a beauty line. Every. It's absurd. It's becoming so saturated, which obviously I'm sure you're very aware of.

And, you know, part of this branding, it's really highlighting a special product where some of these brands today are highlighting a person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm looking at celebrity brands by and large.

That's just an endorsement. I mean, every housewife has a lip gloss. It's like, you know, it's just, it's such a fascinating market.

“But it's like, I think I would argue it's like a lot of things.”

You know, the parallel would be food. Right. There's. Everybody can cook. Some people can cook better than others.

Yeah. So chefs are like, a lot of stars. Great chefs. And they're like the really great beauty brands or beauty formulators, right? Or for a few mirrors or whatever.

Right. You've. There's different levels. There's a hierarchy. Yeah.

That makes total sense.

But to your point, there was no doubt a ridiculous amount of beauty products now.

And a lot of some are formulated, absolutely the same. If you start to look up the ingredients. I'm sure. They're all the same. I'm sure.

And then it just comes back to packaging. Right. And the story. And I am blown away by the creative process to like how much you guys do get involved. Where these brands do have like the branding trips.

They have the branding giveaways. They have. Are you involved in all of that? It depends on where we what we're doing. Sometimes we do marketing.

And marketing on our favorite thing to do. Right. You like to really focus and hone in on the product.

“Well, I think especially with beauty, especially with skincare.”

That's needs to be driven in house because people have concerns and questions and things. They need to speak straight to the brand. Right. And so. But we help with marketing.

We do a lot of marketing for brands. I mean, when we talk marketing, it's more like digital digital ads. Email campaigns. Website website. Website mountains.

But we hear like Brett Lewis saying, if you're running. Especially if it's skincare. And if it's a skincare line that is built around special concerns. They have to do the social media or at least have a tip. Or at least have a team and house that can get back to the clients.

If something happens, if they have an outbreak or question or question. They need to have that. The same thing with supplements. I feel. That's true.

It's a whole another personal thing. Yeah. Yeah. So when you. What's one of the projects that you're working on right now that you could share?

That maybe hasn't been launched yet. I can't really talk about any of that. But the one. But there's a lot of interesting things happening. Yeah.

The lift process that we launched with the. This our clients and Monaco. They're coming out with a few more products. Um, that are all related to makeup. Or I want to say skincare quite.

Yeah. Yeah. Working on a. The Irish brand is doing a. We're trying to pioneer home wellness within.

Hmm. To develop a category around home wellness. Which is. Interesting concept. I think.

I don't know if I want to.

I don't know if I want to. I don't know if I want to. I don't know if I want to. Um. Um.

“Well, that's reason why we can't we we have signed on the.”

I understand. I understand. So yeah, for young. There's no kind of interesting things. So for a young designer who's looking to break into this industry, who's going.

You know, and learning what advice would you give them. Go to a print shop to begin with. Small the turpentine and see how. Printing works. That's one of the things that a lot of, especially if you're.

If the designer is interested in doing packaging. They need to see how it all. Go together. How prototypes are made. How printing works.

To understand that. No. I can't just do it all on a computer. I have to get my hands dirty. Yeah.

I have to build another thing. Yeah, another thing is actually what I feel is lacking. Is the understanding of. Typography and setting type out. Create high up key.

When you're really writing. Something or when you're putting it on a packaging. There was so many packages to see right now. But there's absolutely no hierarchy. Everything is set in the same way.

And your eye doesn't know what to do. And your eye does those in circles. Because they don't teach typeography in school anymore. Which is extremely important. Which is extremely important.

From a standpoint when a product goes on a shelf. And the consumer's walking. It's a lip balm section. And there's 15 different products.

So what's your eye is going to get drawn to first.

Which one is the consumer going to stop. And just because of how the packaging is done. Exactly. And like you're saying, the hierarchy of the of the font size and the style. You know, draw a line.

And then once you get your attention. You pick it up. Then the readability of like understanding what makes this product great.

“So how can you as designers and packaging it so forth?”

Because I've done this in some products that I've been involved in. Where I basically spent time. You know, in a drugstore watching read to, you know, Consumers go up to it and ask in them, why did you pick that? Yeah.

Need terror. What made you pick that? Why did you pick a breather over the nine other cold sore products that were on the shelf? Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's funny. We were having a conversation the other day with a woman. We work with he does market research. And we were talking about AI and how it doesn't impact to business in what way. So that what you realize that it can't do is it cannot do behavior.

Right. Right. You need still to be there and talk to people. Like why did you do that? I can't really feeling either.

Yeah. So, but I kind of feel that's old school. That's something that I don't think they teach in school today. And they're putting an emphasis on that. No, no.

I mean, I think the part of that has changed. I remember back in a day when you used to take, you know, a concept born to ask random people. What do you think of it? Would you pick concept one or two, right?

I don't think that exists so much anymore. Just because you can test that so quickly just on social media. Right. With any of your concepts, do you ever do focus groups internally or externally? No.

If someone's saying not nearly like we used to just because you can test so much that it's just on social now. Right. To what you were saying, that's the whole different thing about consumer behavior. And why did you pick that product enough this much? That's interesting.

And I don't think that will change ever because that's just human behavior. Yeah. I've done a fair amount of that myself and realized how important it is.

You know, how a consumer just walking up in that first few seconds.

How their eye is drawn to a particular product and why. And then asking people.

“That's why I designed batters, you know?”

Yeah. But a lot of it is also driven by social media. Now, we might need to live in Iceland. Lived with us for seven weeks here in New York. And one evening we opened up the refrigerator.

We saw all these weird products in there. And we were like, "Where did you get that from and why did you buy it?" And it was all because of she was on the bottle.

Yeah. I know we're planning our spring break trip. And my kids, you know, my husband's thinking, "What are some of the sites you want to go see? Where do you want to explore?"

And they come back with the top TikTok, you know, stops. It definitely is that new generation. You know, TikTok is 100% there. It's funny. It really is.

It's total.

“But you know, that's okay, I think, because that, you know,”

when you're talking about something you eat or put under a scan that does some, who, how do you know this kid knows

where he's even talking about in the first place?

And that's the truth. It's a different story. Whether or not it's a, you know, some guys, five second clip of looking at the pyramids of Giza. Right.

Fine. Not that hurts you. But it's very different when you're talking about something that has the health, the social health. Right.

So do your campaigns speak to that sometimes, too. You know, highlighting. But yes. People were trying to get away from this trying to say everything. How the brands all want to say the same thing.

We're clean. We're green. But what does that mean to you? Right. It's so true.

And it doesn't suck for you anymore. Because everybody says it now. Right. Yeah. You know, it means like table stakes keep changing.

And good. Because you shouldn't have to keep saying the same things I've already opened over. The society should catch up and realize that it's better that things are, or, or good for the environment

that they're vegan, that they're not being tested on animals. All that stuff should just be a given, a given, right. Yeah. I hear you.

But it's amazing how many don't listen.

They still make out their mean messaging. Meanwhile, they own, you know, three patents for this batter. The other thing that they don't talk about except on the third page. That's the bottomary about page. That's your differentiator.

And you've buried it. Yeah. It's funny. It's our.

“So are you part of a brand mainly for a certain campaign?”

Or are you there for, like, the long haul? The long haul. We're like, yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful.

It's a lot more fun. Yeah. It's more intense. Because you grow with the brand. Right.

You, you, things come up. Opportunities come up. Problems come up. And you just, solve them. Or you take advantage of them.

Well, something, like, obviously, I love Charlotte Tilbury myself and traveling, you know, and shopping in other countries and places. Her, her actual, like, boutiques are, like, just eye candy, especially with my background. Are you part of those meetings and collaborations as well?

Or strictly just product and the packaging? Well, we're in the company once said that the one, the first one. I'm coming. Yeah, but she has a. She has a team.

Good design team. But does her retail work? Yeah.

Well, we were always involved.

Yeah. You know, I, whatever I started when we worked with her was in very, very beginning. She was 35 people or something. You know, it was. And we did their first e-commerce site.

And yeah, she hadn't opened the story yet in Common Garden. She was just going to do that. But along this, that's the time. I'm putting in a little bit of a month. That's what we took that way.

That's what I'm getting, though. Yeah. So we'd create, like, on the website, this thing called Charlotte's world, which was, like, behind the curtain, we really understand who she was as a makeup artist and her career.

“And I think some of that ended up translating into the downstairs part of that”

where it was more of a worthwhile kind of cool feel. But she's one of those people, though, who was wonderful, because she had a very clear vision about what she was about. And she is exactly who she is when you meet her own person. And that you see her success for sure.

Yeah. And without a doubt. She's the real deal. Yeah. And that is not.

Yeah. And there was no bullshit. I mean, it's just straight on. Yeah. I love that.

So you've intentionally kept your agency small. How have you seen that as a benefit? But turn things around really quickly. Yeah. Yeah.

There's no hierarchy. We're all in it together. We're all. Get our hands 30. And everybody is.

Everybody's the team. Yeah. Oh, I love that. There was as well. We were much larger.

We had close life closer. Yeah. And then we after actually appendemic solidified a lot in it. Because we realized like, it cut out the fat. We do all of this ourselves faster and maybe even gutter.

Yeah. Yeah.

But you've got to have a team.

And the teams got to be on the same page. We were very conscious about keeping everybody involved on. Everything. Yeah. We do.

Even though one person may take us a lead on it just to be the day today. But. Yeah. Because everybody's going to look at it slightly differently. So maybe home having a Piff any while they're in a shower.

Yeah. Come back. Wow. That's a great idea. We should do that.

You know. So. I think it just works better.

“And I think clients appreciate it too when they realize they've hired a team.”

Yeah.

And not a bunch of project managers and.

I agree. I agree. Who's half in and half out. We can put your brand is your last name. So do most people come in and only want to meet with one or the both of you.

Yeah. We have no choice. That was probably the most creative thing we ever did. And steaming our company. Yeah.

You know, Tiffany ran into a situation when she started her company. It was Tiffany woolly interiors. But and every person that came in in the front door. Only wanted to meet and talk to her on their home. And it got to the point where there was no way she could handle every single home on

herself when she had a team. So I said to her, you got to change the name of the company. We shortened it to TW interiors. To overcome that. Those true.

And that's a difference to like our projects.

And that's the thing.

“I think in architecture that drove us both a little bit crazy.”

It's just how much time a project takes. Right. Yes. It's a lot of things. Don't realize it.

Understand that. The details. Especially if you're doing full construction, right? Right. The details.

Or a big, you know, big remodel. It takes a lot of time. Well, in most and almost every project we do now. Everything after the architecture, you know, the architecture of the layout. So all the elevations are done.

Everything is done, you know, in three days. So it's photorealistic, you know, of every room and, you know, every wall. And people don't realize, you know, how long that takes. And then you got clients that come back saying, okay, I want to change these two chairs in this table and that lamp and that light fixture and that rug. And can you re-render it all?

They think, well, can I see it tomorrow? No, that's not good. Yeah. Yeah, but you're doing it on the computer. Why not?

Yes. Wait, wait. It's crazy. We have gotten these requests. Actually, the whole time a client was in the office.

We had a meeting. I'm seeing one of some changes since he was that. Oh, I'm just waiting here until they're done. Right. Exactly.

We know. Yeah. Bring your sleeping bag. We understand that. It's crazy.

Yeah. But I mean, is this the instinct when you bring up? Because sometimes I feel like when clients don't understand process, especially like manufacturing. You know, trackers, there's physical constraints to it. Right.

And even printing. That takes a certain amount of time for the ink to dry. You can't speed that up. Or, you know, you can only do 3,000 pieces a day and assemble them. That's just what's humanly possible.

And they refused to believe that. It can be kind of annoying sometimes. And I'm going to guess based on our experience that you can't just go to one printer for every single thing that you're doing. There's certain printers can handle certain types of packaging. You know, and, you know, we're in the queue even to kill a brand.

And it's really for us. There's only been one printer and Massachusetts that would do printing for our boxes and labels and so forth. Really the boxes. But the labels is a different printer. Yeah.

Yeah. They have specialties. I just like one guy we use when we do letterpress. He's he's he's he's a god when it comes to letterpress. Right.

He's so, so good at it. Yep. You don't have to explain it. He'll tell you where the what needs to happen. Like it's great.

And we have other printers who are that way for, you know, just a grun printing things. For somebody who creates that, you know, um, cosmetic bronze.

“You have to have, like, speakers and labels that are often under the product boxes.”

That's all he does. Right. I know everybody has their niche. Yeah. But it's, it's the knowledge that you have of where to go for the right printing and the, and to get it done right, which is a value that I, I think sometimes.

You know, because often often, as you guys know, too, they look at the bottom line, but he's more expensive.

Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

“He is more expensive for, for a reason because he's going to also know what has to happen for me.”

But regular Tory point of view and, you know, go with your guy if you want.

And you're going to end up what happens. Yeah. You'll pay for it twice. Yeah. You'll be back.

Yeah. Yeah.

Can be really frustrating sometimes.

No.

“Well, you two have a beautiful creative process.”

And I'm so amazed at your story of where architecture has brought you not only in your relationship, but your beautiful brand. And now this niche of your cosmetic work and moving into photography. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you so much for sharing your journey or design journey.

“You both epitomize everything that we want the world to hear.”

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. What you're doing as well. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for joining us on the I Design Lab today. Thanks. Thank you. Well, hang on.

I Design Lab's podcast is an SW group production in association with the five star and TW interiors. To learn more about I Design Lab or TW interiors, please visit TW interiors.com.