How to Hear & Trust Your Knowing + Feel Certainty in an Uncertain World! With Touré Roberts

No, no, no, this is like why this is literally why I do this show. Moments I pray for like this. They're like... Yeah, yeah, you're a facilitator.

You're a facilitator of miraculous and wonderful and powerful life-changing things.

You share that knowing is not a theory but it's a divine intelligence that we're all born with. You hear people talking about your sixth sense.

“I believe that knowing is actually our first sense before we had eyes to see,”

before we had ears to hear, before any of that, we were created to know we were created to be aware. I can go through something. I can weather something. If I know that there is a God with all power who cares about me. The best moments in my life have happened, the closer I am to that knowing, and probably the worst moments in my life have happened, the furthest away from that I am.

Totally. Are you good at hearing your own knowing? You're intuition and trusting it. Are you able to block out the noise of the world and tune into that knowing inside of you that feels true and tells you what it is? Or have the thoughts in your head, the traumas of your past and the noisy world happening all around us

made it so hard to even get still or to even hear your own knowing at all? If you ever felt that quiet nudge inside of you, that whisper that says there's more.

“There's deeper, there's alignment that you haven't stepped into yet.”

This conversation is for you. Because today's guest is someone who doesn't just talk about purpose, he lives it. You may know him as a pastor, an entrepreneur, a visionary leader, founder of one church and the co-singer pastor of the Potterhouse Dallas, and host of the acclaimed podcast The Call.

You may know him as the husband of the incredible Sarah Jake's robbers. You may know him from stages,

sermons, or moments that have gone viral across the world. But today, you're going to meet the man behind the platform. Over the past two decades, Tory Roberts has helped millions of people navigate faith, identity, leadership, calling, and what it truly means to live in alignment. His brand new book, "Knowing," the journey to certainty, and an uncertain world is a powerful reminder

that so many of us are searching outside of ourselves for answers that already live within us. He writes about discernment, about healing what distorts your clarity, about remembering who you were before,

“the world told you who to be, and he has flown from Dallas all the way here to be here in person”

today, with you and me right here in the studios. I am so excited for this conversation. And whether today you're listening for yourself, or because someone you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kernley Michelle Podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. If you can take two seconds and hit the subscribe or follow button on the app you're listening to it on and watching this on, it means so much to me.

Also, you can get even more inspiration for free right into your inbox. You can just join our newsletter community at Jamie Kernleyma.com. And you know this incredible podcast episode today. It's not just for you and me, please share this with every single person you know who may need some inspiration or a boost in their own self-belief or knowing.

Because what you're about to hear can truly impact mine, yours, and their lives, too. Welcome to Jamie Kernley Michelle. Oprah, how have you defied the odds? Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation.

When you listen, it feels like a hug, burst lady, Michelle Obama. Jamie, you are going so deep.

I have never had this in-depth conversation.

I've actually never said that out loud to anybody in an interview before. You know how to get there. You're brain and your spirit and your heart is like, "Wow, Melinda French Gates." When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her. Megan, that's just obsessive.

I wasn't expecting that one. I could see the light around her. She's infused with light. Maria Shriver. I never made that mistake again.

Imagine overcoming self-doubt. Learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kernley Michelle. Jamie Kernley Michelle. Jamie Kernley Michelle.

Jamie Kernley Michelle.

Jamie Kernley Michelle.

“Maria Roberts, welcome to the Jamie Kernley Michelle.”

Thank you so much, Jamie. It's such a blessing to be here. We love you. You are a star and I'm just excited about what we get to talk about today. Well, I am excited you are here. Anytime I've had the gift of just talking with you, whether it's backstage in an event or

you know, just off the cuff or anything I always just leave feeling filled with hope,

filled with inspiration, filled with what feels like truth and I'm just, I'm grateful. I'm grateful that you're here. I'm so excited for everyone to have this conversation with you. And if they haven't already to experience the brilliance that is you and the anointing that is you. So thank you. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited for your new book and had the gift of reading it ahead of time.

Cover to cover. And first of all, the title knowing, right? The journey to certainty and an uncertain world. I feel like who does not need that right now? Like all of us need that right now.

And I think that this book is a gift. And I left the book going, I really needed this book right now and this.

So many of these reminders, but also these new revelations and ways of thinking about AI

that I hadn't thought about it before. Ways of thinking about certainty in the world that feels so uncertain all around us.

“And I think, you know, right now for so many of us if we're not careful,”

we can just feel like there's no hope left. There's no hope left. And I think that your leadership right now, both with what you are doing outside of this book every day, but also through this book. I think it's so timely and so needed.

So I just want to start things off by saying thank you for that. And can you just share with everyone what inspired you to write knowing? Yeah, thank you. I, you know, I don't and my wife and I both have made this pact that we won't write a book

that we don't feel passionate about because of the impact that it will have

on the timing that the book comes out. I mean, it's, and we're serious about it, even with, you know, those multiple books. But this one for me was a work of love and stewardship, because I've been blessed with some insights that help me to navigate seasons that would be overwhelming for most.

But I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing.

And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm also very aware of what people are facing. And I'm aware there is opportunity.

You know, on the backdrop of chaos, there is still opportunity. And so for me, it was about love. I love people. I genuinely love people. And if I, I can't, with the influence that I have,

sit back and know that people are hurting because they're afraid. Because they're, you know, we're in such a time of transition. Should I leave this job? Should I start my business? Well, I have a job in a few years.

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's really traumatizing. And so, you know, we're here and we're smiling. But I'm also feeling what people are feeling. And so, so I have, you know, the stewardship part of it is I've received, you know, an insight.

And, and, and multiple insights where even though I'm in the same situations, in many cases, my mentality and my perspective and my belief and my hope is not shapeable. It's not shaky. And I wanted to give that to everyone that I could. And that's why I wrote it.

And I'm excited about what's in it. Okay. Well, can you, you know, you share that you share that knowing is not a theory, but it's a divine intelligence that we're all born with.

“So, can you tell us about what knowing is and how we all have it?”

Certainly. So, you know, you hear people talking about your sixth sense, you know, and, and so that is after your five says another that there's some that's in there eight or nine senses. But the sixth is typically when you start getting into what's I'm called intuition or your spiritual senses.

But, but I believe that knowing is actually our first sense before we had eyes to see before we had ears to hear before any of that.

We were created to know we were created to be aware. And from a spiritual perspective, we were created in the image and in the likeness of God. And God is all knowing. And so, so, and when you think about a child, like even you, you may, I'm sure you read it. So, you know, I have my nine-year-old daughter.

She was nine to time, right the forward to the book. And first of all, no one thought that that was a good idea with the exception of me and my close friends. But some of the people that I'm in business with as a relates to the book were against it.

“You know, you know, why did you have a nine-year-old, right a book about knowing?”

You know, everyone, you've got psychologists at your fingertips, you've got all these, you know, scientists, you've got all these people that you could have had to write the forward. Why did you get to it?

Because, and I did that because at nine years old, and even earlier, you're never more closer to the awareness that is knowing.

I don't think that we were created to stumble around and figure out life. I truly believe that we were created with an essence of awareness that gets lost over time because of what we experience. We were created to know and really what I'm talking about in the book is getting back to that first sense and getting better at getting back to it from age to age and stage to stage.

And when you say knowing, so for the person listening right now, what's the difference if any, between knowing and intuition? Yeah. And God whispering stuff to you versus just like instinct. Love it.

So knowing is based on what is already known.

So I'm going to give a little scripture that one is just really profound. It's Jeremiah chapter one and it says, and it says, "God speaking to Jeremiah, it was young." And he says, "Before I formed you in your mother's womb," he says, "I knew you. He's speaking in past tense."

So he's speaking to Jeremiah in time about a version of him that transcends time has already been completed.

“So essentially what he's saying is Jeremiah, you are known and the whole of your life is already known.”

So we're knowing differs from an intuition per se is knowing is a connection to what is already known about you. And so you can have, you know, they say, who was it? I think it was what singer was that. That song, deja vu. I think it might have been Tina Turner.

I can't remember who it was. But anyway, deja vu, we've all had those deja vu experiences. And there's some scientific explanations for it or some scientific attempts to explain it. But it's like showing up somewhere, but you're like, "Man, I've been here before. I've experienced it before, but you really have it."

And in time and space.

“And I believe that sometimes what you're doing is you're actually tapping into something that was known.”

And you're experiencing in time what was known beyond. So knowing is the ability to peek into what is already known and you get better at it. You know, you get better at sensing that knowing. So much so that you can start leaning into it and participating in what's known. And one of the immediate gifts of that whole experience is peace.

Because it's already worked out. I'm not a random experiment. You know, I am the byproduct of a brilliant thought in the mind of the one who created me. And as a result of that, as I grow closer in my relationship with the North, the ultimate North, I begin to sense my way into alignment and things get so much better as a result.

And knowing we're born with free will. And then we can mess the whole lot of things up. We can also have a whole lot of self doubt and think a whole lot of thoughts that are not even true about who we are and just live miserable, which most of us have done. Being imperfect humans that we all are. And then when we talk about what's known and and and figuring out how to like tap into that knowing.

Would you say that in doing that we get closer to the truth about even like what's true about our own worth and about who we are.

So I feel like I'm too young or I'm too old or I missed the chance or I've made too many past mistakes or I don't have what it takes or I'm just anxious all the time.

All those things.

“Would any of those be in the hemisphere of if we were truly tuned into our knowing what is known and true about us from our creator for sure and it makes me.”

This is really why I wrote the book it makes me sad to hear that because I know it's true and I have walked through seasons in my life where I had questions like that as well.

The reason why we question ourselves or so forth or doubt or what have you is because we have gotten detached from the awareness of knowing the fact that we are alive and have the ability right now in this very moment to put our hand in front of our face blow on it as a as evidence of life in breath. Means that there's still something yet unfolding.

“If your life had no meaning or significance or had nothing to look forward to then you wouldn't have that it would be over.”

But the reality of it is the fact that you literally have breath in your body means that there is more.

And what happens oftentimes is we are tempted to give up before we grow up and we're tempted to give up before we come into and awareness we're working our way back to knowing we we started knowing. We had peace and contentment and we were kind we were born when we were born you know it's very we're heart pressed to find an unhappy baby we're heart pressed to find a child that isn't happy or a child that doesn't have belief that if they cry they're going to get fed they're going to get picked up you know but over time life begins to strip us away of that belief.

We we go through things we experience things and next thing you know we're questioning whether or not we're safe. And so the journey to knowing is getting back to the reality that what we're trying to figure out has actually already been worked out. It's already been worked out we're trying to figure that and so once you go on a journey where you see the consistency of God sustaining you. And in many cases not just sustaining you but but causing you to trend up right it's it's kind of like the stock market you don't necessarily always it doesn't always seem like it's going up you know because you've got all of these highs and these lows but if you look at it over any 25 year period.

“And that's what I would say to someone even someone listening right now you've had a turbulent existence maybe a turbulent five years 10 years 20 years and and perhaps even naturally economically relationally.”

You only see dips but God has a way of forming you and and even though maybe the economics aren't where you want them to be or maybe the relationship or maybe the self love. That you want to have in contrast to beating yourself up and doubting yourself sometimes it is like a. I don't know the best analogy but like a cake being made in it you know if you just take a you take flower and you just eat flower that's that's disgusting you know if you take sugar and after one that's disgusting too but but God is called a potter and he has a way.

Taking us as clay and taking us through this dizzying process which seems like it's not making sense in our head is spinning in and we don't know which way to go but in the process of time and remember we're still in the game because we've got we've got that breath we're still in the game in the process of time it'll all make sense and then you will know on a whole other level because you've seen his Andy work. As you share that you know I just want to I want to zoom out for a minute because of a thinking about person at home who maybe is thinking about their own life right now and going okay to get closer to knowing to closer to the truth it closer what is to what is.

This require almost. Trust we need a pause for a super brief break and while we do take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going.

When you build yourself worth you change your entire life and that's exactly why I wrote my new book worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you.

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Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below.

“Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with worthy who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief.”

And I love to hang out with you even more especially if you can use an extra dose of inspiration which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week just go to Jamie Kernleyma.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you.

“If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration some tips tools joy and love hitting your inbox.”

I'm your girl subscribe at Jamie Kernleyma.com or in the link in the show notes. Do you struggle with negative self talk living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit the words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over yourself talk it's life changing and I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that can benefit your life.

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If you're ready to take charge of your narrative build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at Jamie Kernleyma.com/resources or click the link in the show notes below and now more of this incredible conversation together. To get closer to knowing to closer the truth it closer what is to what is does this require almost. Trust does it require trust that God's hands at work in your life even when it doesn't make sense like the way you just described him making the cake you're like wait a minute the flower on its own that doesn't taste so good right now but he's literally the potter making the cake and I'm thinking about.

What you're just saying in my own life on how even stuff that makes no sense to me that happen setbacks like crazy stuff in my family random betrayals whatever my it's like a wait a minute he's always brought me through it like I've always come through like I've always survived it I've always come out of it stronger or more resilient or more and I look at like I can see.

As a human it's hard for me sometimes to still think like oh no no but I'll pray but still it's all on me I've got to figure out I've got to carry it oh the world feels like a disaster oh the political unrest everywhere oh this oh that. But it's like oh wait a minute that's all that's all out here and what you're saying is the closer you get to knowing and would you say it's to trusting that.

“Your life is divinely ordered or trusting that got already has a plan for your life is that is that a way to closer to more tuned into that knowing to then.”

And find peace and no okay he does always bring me through it it is all going to work out absolutely and to know that God cares.

You know if I can go through something I can weather something if I know that there is a God with all power who cares about me so if there's a God who has all power. The ability to do anything who cares about me and is for me and yet for some reason he chooses not to use that power in the way that I want him to use that power.

Then it must mean that if he use the power in the way that I want him to use the power then somehow that would set me back in comparison to what he really desires for me.

Just one passage in scripture and I was around this guy named Lazarus who died he literally died and his sisters were very upset and they were obviously grieving. And Jesus comes and says that Jesus wept and people try to say well you know he wept over Lazarus you know but Lazarus would subsequently be raised from the dead so he wasn't weeping over Lazarus what was he weeping over. Weeping over the grief of the daughter or the sisters rather he was weeping over the grief of Lazarus sisters because they did not quite understand what the outcome would ultimately be and yet there was a bigger thing at play so he couldn't use his power to fix it for them in that moment.

Because ultimately in that context you know the greater miracle and the greater testimony would be that God has the power to raise the dead.

“So I think first it's about knowing that God really cares he there is a sovereign God who truly cares about you and he would not let you face anything.”

Regardless and I'm not trying to be insensitive but regardless of how painful it is had he not already pre-qualified you to handle it so in other words this God who knows her I'm known before I formed you I knew you I actually know what you can handle I have a better pulse on what you can handle. But leave it or not then you do and I would not put it on you unless I was going to do more than sustain you going to do more than than then make you hold again. But I will use that I'm a multiplier I will use that to multiply you and I've seen this in my own life I've seen this in you know just about all the biblical figures.

You know we they're heroes but they're heroes who were human and had to go through this process and so so I think it begins with knowing that there's a God who cares.

“And and over time it's going to make more sense but again you have to resist a temptation to give up before your life grows up.”

For the person listening at home who's like. I think I might believe in God but I'm not sure and also. If there was a God why do other horrible things happen and if there was God why did this x y or z happen to me. What you just took us through explains that and can you say that can you share what you just shared in the context. For someone who's thinking that right now and who's like okay to rate but what but why would this bad thing happen to me that makes those if God was real why would this happen to me.

What do you say to that and then tie that into why this is so you guys I live my like I love this book so much because I really feel like the best moments in my life have happened the closer I am to that knowing.

“And probably the worst moments in my life have happened the furthest away from that I am so like I'm so in this right now and I'm trying to figure out also just for the person listening who's just like okay Jamie Tory but.”

Why the why the world God really was real why that why this thing happened to me why that happened in that country yeah.

What do you say to that to that person this isn't sure and then in words in their words why knowing is going to. Change your whole life oh yeah well first of all that is a very very legitimate feeling yeah question I've felt that I've questioned that that is legitimate and then it's also not offensive at all to God.

You know because of you know my experience and even the way that I've seen him you know as I study his interaction with people that I know and even people in the scripture it's almost like he.

“I appreciate the authenticity of the questioning you know if you just sign up right away and there's no qualifying because I think I believe that God.”

I imagine just for a second I think God has so much confidence in in our ability to perceive him ultimately that he is not even in a hurry to force you to accept him it's almost like a relationship you know I don't want. Someone to love me I believe that I am lovable and and and if you just get in my presence and if you just get to know me you will love me you know and so and God is omnipresent he's everywhere and and there will be a moment where there is an opportunity. For God to show his trustworthiness and so I just say that's I wanted to normalize the questioning the everyone did no one immediately you know oh my God you know that's you know well maybe back in the beginning because there was knowing there was uninterrupted knowing but now knowing is a journey so I would say that as it relates to.

“You know bad things happening and they happen all the time and things that grieve me deeply if you are looking at.”

It's almost like a movie and movies are set up in scenes and if you come in on a two hour movie that has you know three scenes and you just you just watch this this one scene and this scene somebody just you know loses their life or some terrible thing happens.

You will make a decision about life about God about every about the movie but you haven't seen the home movie and we're talking about at best.

Our life span and I hope I get to be 105 but we're talking about you know a 105 year existence and I get it that's all we know. We know that 105 and we some history but for the most part we're locked into this finite period of time and because of what we see and what we experience. We are making a decision about an infinite God who doesn't think the way that we think there's one passage that says he says we're my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways.

We're talking about the distance between the two. So let's slow that down. The way that I think is not the way that you think but what is more telling as he says and my ways how I go about to achieve something is different from the way that you will go about to achieve something and so what if in the grand scheme of things. What I am lamenting as it relates to what I'm seeing understandably so murder human trafficking death you know just the most horrible things and I understand that I agree with that too but what if that's just one scene in the movie and the movie has an incredible redemption that is so absolutely phenomenal that it dwarfs the pain.

My mentality is oh my God when I am when I come when it's all said and done the restoration the the reward that will happen once I go through this process is going to be so incredible that it won't even be that the pain won't even be worried.

“The pain won't even be worthy enough to be compared with this outcome I believe that you know I mean that's the crox I mean Jesus went through the unthinkable for I mean the unthinkable physically emotionally even spiritually and yet.”

And it was the worst and it could have ever happened to anybody else but the glory that was afterwards and the lives that were changed and so so. I think that I know it's a long way of answering the question but I think that we have to also understand that we are finite and it is natural in to as finite beings to have questions but to also recognize that we're only a live on a timeline and and God has a way of. of proving that.

No matter what we face and no matter what it costs the reward will always be greater.

You have the gift and give the gift of talking to tens of thousands of people more with your reach that's millions but one on one and hearing people stories tens of thousands as well as. Your wife my amazing friend Sarah and your family and throughout hearing so many different people stories would you say that this tends to be true because I have a I have a lot of people that I've had the gift of talking to you who share with me. Some horrific things they've gone through in their life or some trauma that they went through that later in their life once they've made it through those things.

They end up becoming one of their greatest sources and senses of purpose because they're able to help other people make it through those things whether it's by sharing their story or by.

“You know literally directly working with people that are experiencing the same things they've gone through and do you think that I think so many people try to make sense of.”

Well, why am I going through these things is part of the redemption and the beauty and the the purpose and in a way the fulfillment or joy beyond comprehension is part of that come when we're able to.

Have those kind of experiences in our life that don't make sense that we wouldn't wish on anyone else but then it's almost like. We. Or maybe God intends us to then. Have some something so much more beautiful come out of them that becomes so much bigger than ourselves. Yes, I think that's part of the multiplication that I'm talking about.

Yeah, we explain that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah because the a lot of people have never heard there's me so many people listening to us right now that are like.

Tori Jamie what do you mean multiplication what what because everyone can relate to the hard things we've gone through and then it's like. How do I get closer to the knowing and the truth and and the belief or even maybe the seeing the evidence like oh yeah, maybe God is multiplying the stuff we you explain multiplication for sure. So it is the healing the the healed becomes the healer. So but if we work that backwards healer is that's the multiplication I I can heal many but the healer has to become healed.

And in order and and if we keep going the healer has to become healed.

“And the only way that he or she that they can become healed is if they are in need of a healing.”

So again we're we're dealing with a God who sees the end from the beginning so I am stuck in my pain I need to be healed. And I think that that's the end and I understand that sometimes the pain can be so devastating that you don't care about being a healer. Yeah, you're like I just need to and understandably, but you were created to be fruitful and to multiply. And pause for a super brief break and while we do take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire.

Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going.

And then time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief.

“And I love to hang out with you even more especially if you can use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter.”

That's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jameykernleema.com to make sure you're on the list. And you'll get your one on one with jamey weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl, subscribe at jameykernleema.com or in the link in the show notes.

I am so excited for this book, you know what? Because it's going to save so easy. It's going to save more of your new beautiful book worthy. Get this book. This book?

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And now more of this incredible conversation together. You were created to be fruitful and to multiply. Right. And so in order to be. Do you think we all were?

Are we all created to be fruitful and to multiply?

“And just for everyone listening if you have never cracked open any type of religious text at all, right?”

The need to be to be fruitful is and then to multiply. Right is to is to to bear fruit to grow into having a beautiful offering. Share with other people and you're multiplying your own sense of of a purpose and a meaning and a being alive. And we're all. We're all created that way.

We're all created to bear fruit and to multiply. So I just want like for the person listening right now if you're like, huh. Like there's to be about this for a minute in your own life. Like it doesn't have to necessarily be from your pain. It could be from other things.

We've been from beautiful things.

You just have always been gifted with, but it can also be from hard things you've gone through.

And how do you then heal to then start to bear fruit and multiply becoming the healer, right? How does the heal turn into the healer?

A lot of people are on healing journeys.

“And then how do you get into that ultimate?”

It's so good. All of us are multiplying something, right? We're here having a conversation and we are. We're multiplying. We we we we're friends and we we talk and we I don't leave you the same.

You don't leave me the same just by us interacting. I learned something that I didn't know. I thought about something that I hadn't thought about before. So human interaction organically produces multiplication. You know, be fruitful and be alive is to multiply.

Now that's not always positive.

You know, sometimes we're multiplying, you know, generational, you know, brokenness or issues. But we're multiplying something. So it is in our... It's like being bad fruit. You're going to fruitful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can say what kind of fruit, you know.

“Yeah, so we the human is wired to be fruitful and to multiply.”

Obviously, you want it to be good fruit. And so the journey from being healed or needing to be healed or pain to healing to healer is look at God's confidence. God's confidence is I have created you in such a way. That I'll take one step back.

The body is designed to literally heal itself. If it is in proper alignment, right?

Even if a bone is broken.

If the bone is reset, it produces healing. So the body is designed to heal. That's the mystery of creation. So there is built into creation. If there is alignment for the body to heal even after it has been injured.

So that literally is in the body that's science. The body heals itself. A good doctor just puts you in a position to be healed. A doctor doesn't heal a broken arm. He just sets it back in place.

Put something around it, protects it while it ultimately heals itself. There are some people right now and you're going through something that realises that God has put a protective thing around you. You can't see it. You know, and it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't hurt. But I almost just, I feel this function.

I just want to say it. There's someone and you're actually healing. All you see is that you're hurting. And I'm sorry about that. And I love you and care about you.

And in particular, I will be praying for you. But you are just as much healing as you are hurting. And knowing helps you to recognize that. Because knowing says that God knows exactly where I am. I am on God's map.

I'm not one of seven billion.

No, I'm one of one. And God knows every strand of hair on my head. He knows everything. God knows everything that I'm facing. And I'm experiencing and get this.

He has already seen you out. He's already seen you out. There's this one passage that I love. And God says, for I know the plans I have for you. They're good and not evil.

Plans to prosper. You're not harming it. Here's why I love that passage. And of course, face value, it's very encouraging. But it's when you look up that Hebrew word where he says,

I know it's the Hebrew word Yadah. And it speaks to intimacy. It's the same word that was used to describe intimacy, physical intimacy in Scripture. So it's a word about experiencing.

So if I understand that, when I hear that, love letter from God, for I know the plans I have for you. God is saying, I am experiencing the good plans that I have for you. You're walking it out. I get it.

But I am already experiencing it because in my way of being, it's already done. And so knowing is about believing in such a way that you begin to start experiencing before it happens, the ultimate good outcome that's assigned to my circumstance.

“And that's what knowing helps you to do.”

It helps you to understand that life is an unfolding. It's still unfolding again back to that breath. What does that mean? That means it's still unfolding. So it only looks like this.

But guess what? It's going to unfold again. And then when you get that level of unfolding and you need another one, if you're still alive, there's still yet another fold,

And I believe it will get better and better and better,

“not simply because of circumstances, all those circumstances will improve,”

but it will get better and better because you will know in greater ways. You go from guessing, wondering, to believing, to knowing, and that knowing aligns you, you get, yeah, putting to what I like to call alignment, where what I am sensing is what is real. And I start following that sensing and I start participating with what got new.

And that's when things go to a whole another level. If you're listening, you might be watching us on YouTube right now, but if you're listening, to where is putting his hand up in front of his mouth, blowing on it, which you can do right now in your life,

like this second, you put your hand up, blow on it.

And if you feel that, are you saying, if you feel that breath on your hand, God is not done with you. Oh, my goodness, totally. I mean, I love truth, wherever I might find it.

“But in the scripture, it says that God creates man,”

but before man becomes, and I'm talking about humankind, before they become alive, he breaves his breath into their nostrils. His breath, and that's when they come to life. And so back to putting my hand up, and blowing on the microphone, that's that same breath.

And that's creative power that's creative ability. So you're not helpless or hopeless, as long as you've got breath.

You've got the first of all, God's not finished, but secondly, you have the ability

to produce something. And, you know, there's this word, the word, aspire, is a very interesting word. If you break that word down, it means to breathe towards from towards, and the Latin to breathe toward, aspire is to breathe toward.

And so, a lot of people are just breathing. They're just breathing, but when you come to a place of knowing, then you realize that your breath does not random, and you begin to start aiming your breath. And now I'm breathing toward.

So what, you know, for the person that's listening, what do you need? What do you desire? What desire has been placed in your heart? And if it's good, I believe it was a divinely placed in your heart.

So what if I'm not just breathing, or I'm using my breath to worry and be free? What if I took that breath and through prayer and through trusting, and through the words that I speak? I start pointing that toward, my aspiration, aspire.

It's to breathe toward. And I just, I don't know who's listening right now, Jamie,

“but I just feel like someone's life is getting ready to turn around”

and to shift for the better.

And can I just talk to that person just for a second?

Like, I don't even know you almost doubted listening to this, or watching this, but you got apprehended. You, it feels like this podcast, this episode was just for you. It feels like you feel known. You feel totally known and seen right now.

I want you to take inventory of that sensing because that's knowing. That's truth connected with the original knowing that's in you. And take a picture, download this, listen to this segment a thousand times because that's your inner knowing, coming alive. And I think the fruit of this is going to be the faith,

the ability, the strength you were strengthless before you started listening. The strength to move toward, to breathe in a new direction, to breathe toward the goodness that God is experiencing on your behalf and you're going to start experiencing it. And it's going to be some real confirmations.

This conversation is a confirmation, but you're going to see things that were nearby that you didn't notice because you were just breathing randomly. You're breathing in despair. You're breathing hurt and I understand that.

But just as sure as you're hurting, you're healing, and something is happening right now, I feel that for you. Turing robbers, I'm crying on my own show. No, no, no, this is like why this is literally why I do this show. The moments I pray for like this.

They're like, yeah, yeah, you're a facilitator.

I'll share more with you off camera,

but that's who you are. And you're human. You're like we all are. I'm trying to figure it out. And we evolve.

But the beautiful thing is knowing leads us in that evolution. And so we just keep sensing hardly forward. I have so many questions I want to ask you about knowing. And also when thing you just said, I don't want anyone to miss. And it's really about the word aspire.

“And about what direction are you breathing in right now?”

And think about, you know, everyone listening right now in your life. Is your breath even intentional? Are you just breathing wherever the wind is blowing and just trying to, or are you breathing in the direction of things you feel on your heart? Are you breathing in the direction of your dreams?

Are you breathing in the direction of love? Are you breathing in the direction of fear? Can you just talk about that? One more time for the person listening is like,

I've never even thought about which direction I'm breathing in.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's remarkable. There is, I talk about this and knowing. I talk about the reality that we have an organ of perception. We mentioned sensing earlier and the various senses and how knowing is actually the first sense. And we all of us have an organ of perception.

We have to discover it, we have to recognize it and then we have to train it through use, believe in it and then use it and let it grow, let that sense grow. But we have that.

“And I bring that up because we're talking about breathing toward what?”

How do we know what to breathe toward? I personally believe that something awakens. There's, it's already in you. And you just have to hear, but you're not hearing with your ears. You're not even hearing with your mind.

You're hearing here in that invisible organ of perception. And if we're able to dust it off, dust off the,

first of all, the disbelief in the ability to perceive on that level.

If God created you with ears to hear, the nose to smell, tongue to taste, the hands and feet to give you tactile ability. And why would he create you not to perceive his voice, the truth. That wouldn't be feasible. And so we know we have that, it just gets clouded and crowded.

It gets diluted, the noise, the pain, all of the, the self-taught that talk, the self-taught that's unprofitable. But if we can tap into that with the awareness that our life, our very breath is our movement. Like right now, you're moving, there's movement, some, you feel stuck, but you're not. If you just put your hand on over your abdomen, just be still for a moment,

you'll realize that movement is taking place. If you put your hand over your heart right now, movement is happening. And so what I need to do is I need to connect with my knower. I need to connect with that organ of perception and begin to align that with how I move, how I think how I breathe.

“When you talk about knowing, so what are ways that someone can tell if they're not in alignment with their knowing?”

And then what are ways they can tell, oh yeah, I'm tuned into it. Yeah. Peace is a huge part of it. There is a piece, there's a Greek word for peace. It's Iranian and it means one.

So we think of peace and we think that peace is an emotion. And there are emotions associated with peace. But peace is an awareness. Peace is a, there's nothing, there's nothing missing in this moment. There's nothing missing in, you could have all sorts of things going on in your life. But in this moment of focus, there's peace.

That's a sign, like peace because peace and wholeness are the same.

Whether that's in a relationship, your dating, you know, the guy's gorgeous is successful.

“You're excited, but if you're honest, you know, have peace.”

Or the, the deal, the company that you're looking to invest in, or the company that you're buying, or the company you want to start or the partner that you want to engage. Everything looks good on paper, you know? And so there is, that can even be excitement because of what it looks like. But then somewhere in you, you can't explain it.

It doesn't make sense, but you're unsettled.

And so oftentimes, one of the greatest referees of indecision is peace. Sometimes, because again, we're talking about knowing and knowing knows 20 years down the road. So if I am considering a relationship in acquisition, a move out of state, whatever, if I don't have peace, even though it looks good on paper, that might be knowing saying, "Ah, I know you can't see it, but if you get into partnership with this guy,

when the company is successful, they're going to sue you." You know what I mean?

Or if you get into a romantic relationship with this guy,

there's something about his life, her life, their life, that you can't see it, or it may arise. So again, knowing is dealing with an infinite knowledge base. And that's in us. That's in us, we just have to train it. And so peace oftentimes is the referee.

Hmm.

“Do you think our body also gives a sign of knowing, like we just feel like maybe we feel things before our mind can catch up with it?”

Absolutely. And the main thing that you've got to trust it, you've got to trust it. I've had, you know, I've talked about in the book, I've had moments where I just knew, and I overwrote what I knew, and I paid for it. And there were other times where I just knew, but I let fear talk me out of what my knowing was trying to talk me into,

and I lost opportunity. And so it's a beautiful journey of discovering it, training it, and flowing in it. And that's, again, what I felt like, you know, I'm living this, and not just me, I know a lot of my close friends that really get this and understand it, but the masses are understandably inundated with so much noise and so much fear. And I get it, it's like, there's a lot to be concerned about, and yet even in the midst of that uncertainty, knowing will bring certainty to you.

Do we, can you talk about the power of getting still, and how does someone do that and doesn't matter? Yeah, it totally matters. It's hard. I'll be honest with you. It takes discipline to get still, and it does because every single day we have got so much coming at us. And it's not just life. I mean, let's just be honest, there's a thing called an attention economy, where my attention and your attention is for sale.

“You know what I mean? That's what I call pay attention because people pay for your attention, right?”

And so it's very difficult to silence all of that, but we have to take responsibility over our own stillness because we can't create an environment of clarity for the voice sometimes the faint voice of knowing to rise up and speak. And so it is hard, but what we must do, see sometimes it takes trust to be still, be personally, it is just as, you know, it's harder for me to stop than it is for me to start. Like, you know, sometimes some people need faith to start something. You know, I'm good with that. I need faith to stop and to believe that I can actually stop and pause and be still, even though I've got all these things going on.

And it's not crumble, but the reason why I've been blessed and I am blessed to keep moving forward to keep advancing is because I make stillness and I'll maybe get into some specifics. I make stillness, stillness, my responsibility. I have a responsibility to myself, to my family, to everyone around me, to make certain that the cleanest thoughts and subsequently the cleanest decisions and actions are taking place and I can't get the cleanest version of my output unless I get still.

And here's why, because my still time is early in the morning. Sometimes, you know, I can't even with Sarah sometimes I can't, we want to watch something and I'm sleeping ten minutes, you know, and I go with it because I am prioritizing my still time for someone it might be late at night for me, it's early in the morning. So you have to protect it and you have to plan it like stillness is not just going to show up and you have to plan it when is it work for you.

“When, when is it the quietest for you, you know, and everyone's different, you know, the mandate is to do it is to make it happen and structure it in such a way.”

So that space, then when you, when you get into that space, you got to let it go, you got to let it all go and trust that it is actually okay to not think about 40 things. It's it's it's okay just to get still and then see what rises.

Is that what you do? So for the person going to come and get still, then what do I do? What do you do? Get your pen and get your journal well, stillness first and and qualify it.

Don't just write everything that comes to you, you know, be if if something that you know is not really profitable comes, just come on back to center, you know, don't get mad at yourself don't judge yourself just say that's, you know, I am pursuing clarity. Maybe about a particular thing and until I get instructions, not worried and again, it's going to be marked by and qualified by peace. Because knowing speaks peace is with it. Now it might be peace that requires and this is kind of going in another direction. It might the feeling might be peace, but that peace, which marks the fact that it's true, my call you to do something which will require you to mourn.

“You have to let go of something that you don't want to let go of, but the instruction, you know, I've had.”

I tell the story, I was, you know, I was married before for I met Sarah, we were celebrating all we've been together for 12 years.

But before that, I was, I was married. Unfortunately, it wasn't a good marriage, but I was married. I was in a counseling session trying to make it work and the therapist uncovered something that was hard. I knew it was true because in a weird way, there was peace with it, but it meant that I was going to have to go and do something that I didn't want to do. I was going to have to face the fact that the marriage was over.

“So sometimes just because there is peace in the delivery, you know, because, you know, if God sends you mail, it will be marked by his presence, which is peace, but that doesn't mean what you have to do is going to be peaceful.”

Sometimes the unfolding necessitates some really tough decisions. Yeah, and you share in the book that whole journey of that first marriage and of all of it and even after I guess God delivered you peace and you knew what you had to do, so it wasn't easy after.

Okay, it was horrifying because I was only looking at it in one frame, but now you pan out 13 years later, and I couldn't be me now had I not done that.

And I've been willing to mourn, there's this passage that says, "Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted." How can it be a blessing to mourn? Well, it just means that sometimes in order to get to what God knows about you, you're going to have to grieve something that you thought you're going to have to grieve a relationship. You're going to have to grieve an idea that you had that was smaller than God's idea for you. And sometimes you just don't even know how it's all going to work out, right? Like I just, you know, this was big for me recently, but we were matched with a surrogate and going forward to have another kid.

So what it was, I couldn't shake this feeling that like something was off and I wasn't supposed to go forward with it. And this was like a year into it. It takes a long time. And normally I would just bury that down and keep going and my mind would outthink it and be like you are so blessed. This is an all that's true. This is a blessing.

And so we parted ways. And in my past, I would not have done that. I would hold on to people too long. I would stay in bad relationships too long. I would keep friends around. They were not good friends.

“And I'm starting to try and trust that knowing more and more. And in that case, I'll probably, in this human experience, never know if that was the right decision or not.”

But I felt peace after. And I also still felt, I still second guessed to myself in my head, but my body felt peace. So I was like, okay, that must be knowing.

It totally is. And you may never, sometimes you actually do see why the knowing talked you out of something or legendary, but sometimes you may not.

But that's not the point. The point is, I know the knowing. So I mean, there's an opportunity on a table for me right now. And it isn't a no. But it isn't a yes. So sometimes the knowing is not yet.

“And you have to trust that because timing is everything. The right thing at the wrong time is a disaster.”

And so even with that, she just described, I'm confident, what you just described to me is knowing, you know, regardless of if whether or not the outcome one way or another, in front of you, I guarantee you that peace, you know, the peace is the sign.

So everywhere around us right now, AI artificial intelligence. And then you hear about AGI artificial general intelligence.

Now they're talking about higher up on the pyramid, this next level of super intelligence, you talk about something above all that divine intelligence share with us divine intelligence. I totally love AI, use it. I'm excited about its advances. Some people are concerned, and I have concerns, but I'm excited about that tool.

But AI is only as good as what you put into it. So AI will never rise above human input.

Even AI, and I can't think of the other one where it is ultimately going to be, we're training it to train itself. But even still, it's human input. Divine intelligence is on a whole other level. This is the reality that we have access to the mind, the thoughts and the knowledge of God, the creator, which is crazy. But it's true. We're creating this image. This does not mean that we're going to be God. I'm not painting that because God is, I was going to say he's finished, but there was no beginning and there was no end. God just is.

So I call it, you know, when I preach, I call it the isn'test of God. God just is. There's no beginning. There's no end. God just, we have a beginning and an end. And that is one of the reasons why we'll never be all knowing is because we're still working things out. We're still growing. However, as we grow in our knowing, there will be prolific changes in our awareness, our ability to quickly, you know, and now it might take us, you know, a week to discover that, you know, the divine path. But as we grow, just like with any other sensing, in the old skill, we get better at it. And so we can decide quicker, which is important because speed is money and time is money and all that kind of stuff.

But a divine intelligence is the reality that we have access to the mind of God. Now whether or not we position ourselves to lean into that, to grow in that resource or not is one thing.

“But we do have access to divine intelligence. And I've got, like I think I was mentioning in the book, you know, I have been, I've experienced knowing things that I just should not know.”

One book, my book called Holy My Second Book, Holiness. And I wrote it and I don't have a background in psychology or anything like that. I just wrote it. I sat there and I prayed and I, there were moments where I cried because I felt something coming through me. And I have therapists, PhDs that use a book that a non, my background's business, that a non, PhD person, and they're using this with their clients. What did that come from? They went to school for years.

organ of perception, that inner-knower, and now I'm having, in some cases, the same impact as someone who went to school, because I tapped into divine intelligence. So yeah, I unpack that, you know, really deeply, you know, in the book.

“I think that concept, divine intelligence, super seating, AI, AGI, super intelligence, I think it gives us a whole lot of hope.”

And when I read that in your book, I'm like, oh, that's good. Like, that's so good and so powerful.

Jamie, it's going to be okay. I was, I was in a meeting recently, and people were concerned, and they were concerned about artificial intelligence. And I remember in that meeting, you know, and of course everyone knows how wonderful it is, but they also are concerned. Everybody's racing to evolve it, and they all, they know that it's evolving faster than regulation can keep up with.

“But the mentality is, well, we have more morality than others, so at least if it's going to happen, we want to be the ones that stored it, which is interesting, but anyway, I digress in that meeting.”

There was a lot of concern, and I just said, guys, I said, I know I'm worried about AI, but, but it will never, ever, super seed.

I said, we've got a lot of challenges. I know we've got a lot of things to fix in our world. I know there are a lot of things that perplexes. I get it. But there is hope again, got to pan out. You know, you got to, we're in this moment in time, but there is a plan.

“There literally is a strategy for good, and that strategy is in the stream of knowing. And if we can get to knowing whether we are a mom at home trying to figure out what the next move is, you know, a president, you know what I mean?”

Or anyone just, you know, a businessman that's trying to figure out what his next move is, concerns about the economy and what's going to take place. I'm telling you, there is a strategy that that we are not without a plan. We just have to be still enough and be tapped in enough to the place where all the insight, all the tools, all the witty ideas, all the strategy, all the innovation and all the inspiration exists, and that's annoying. So, in this, for this podcast, you know, I have a lot of people listening who have really really strong faith, and then there's people who have no faith, who practice all different faiths, who believe the universe has got their back, who believe that.

I mean, all of it, the gamut, who vote different, love different, identify different, all of it. And so, one question I'm always fascinated by that I just love to talk about and and is how, especially with your life journey, with how you, with your offering to the world, every single day, with, with, with impact you already had and continue to have faith. How are you certain that God exists?

First of all, I love everyone, regardless of how they do what they knew were all on a journey, and I have so much respect for the journey.

People get, they get it wrong, is they feel like they are supposed to be the captain, the stored of someone else's journey, and that's a mistake. You actually mess up the journey by insisting that the journey be a certain way, which is doubt, it's very doubtful to do that. That means that you don't trust the God that, that you profess, so much so that he needs you to strong learn people into the way that they should go. For me, there's no way that I could explain the grace, the goodness, the confirmation, the whisper that became known, that was revealed that it was truth.

Not a one-off, not a two-off. I mean, a consistent pattern, you've talked about pattern recognition, a consistent pattern of knowing, and then the outcome from that knowing.

Faith, faith is when you need to believe in something that you can't see, I've got too much history, I've got too much evidence. There's this passage that says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seeing." I've seen too much, so my relationship with God is not even a relationship with faith anymore. It used to be faith, now it's knowing. Now I know faith is for people who don't know. You just see God in all these areas of your life, and you see, you know, you put in your trust here, and you're having this inspiration, this knowing, the trust, this, the trust, this path, and you follow that path, and you're like, "Whoa, when your life radically changes, Jamie, I've had that so much that my relationship with God is not even faith anymore."

It would take faith for me to not believe in God if that makes sense, but everyone has their own journey. But I do think that if you don't have that experience where you feel first of all entirely known, entirely loved, because God is love, God doesn't have love, God is love. So that means that wherever there is God, love should be present. Now sometimes love is challenging because sometimes I love my kids, but sometimes I have to correct them, I have to put my punishment.

“So let's not misunderstand what love is, but I think that anyone who truly, truly seeks out the one who made them.”

In earnest, and to not be religious about it, in any direction, because you have people who are obviously religious, and they kind of shove it down your throat, and then you have some people who are so anti-religious that they become religiously anti-religious. And so anything that looks like religion, they have now become religious against that. So if you approach it with an openness, even the book, I'm definitely a believer in God and Holy Spirit, I believe in Jesus.

But if you read the book with an open mind, there's no forcing at all what you will come away with is an incredible interpretation of a God that I don't think anyone will reject.

A God of love, a God of intention, a God of mercy and grace of one who is experiencing his good plan for your life.

“If Jesus were right here, walking around, what would he not recognize if he went into a sampling of Christian-based churches across the country?”

Honestly, probably wouldn't recognize 99% of our churches.

And I don't mean that as a dig, I just think that sometimes we turn movements into monuments, and we make the church about the church and the church was never meant to be about the church.

The church was always meant to be about people. God loves people. And he would rather you not have this fancy institution. If he had to choose between you having this fancy institution with all the bells and the whistles and the lights, and we have all of that. You being 100% committed to people, and loving people, touching people, serving people, elevating people and building people. He would tear the building down in two seconds flat.

“Again, I think that there's some great churches doing it well. I really do many more than get the credit that they deserve to be honest.”

But I don't think it was ever about that. You never saw Jesus building that. You saw him building people.

And that's my mission. My mission is not to build big big facilities. The only reason why I would build a big facilities to facilitate people. But the ultimate goal is to build big people. Jesus loves hard. He is not arrogant. He is not proud. He is not boastful and boisterous. He is weak. He is relatable. He is lovable. He is into us unlike anything we've ever experienced.

Like something feels incongruent. They say that they are Christian, but then they don't love their neighbor. And they are judgmental or discriminatory or exclusionary or any of those things.

“You know, so many things happening in our country right now, like the worship of power, under the guise of religion. There are so many things happening everywhere and to a regular person who is so busy.”

Just try to figure out how to deal with the cost of living increase and how to take care of the family and their running around. But maybe they feel avoid in their life because they do not have a relationship with their creator. Maybe they want one, but look at all of this. From your perspective, you know, you pastor, you co-pastor, one of the most beloved successful churches in the country. You have created churches in addition to that.

“You have your finger on the pulse of everything going on. What impact is that having on people seeking a relationship with Jesus or Christianity as a faith?”

First of all, I could cry right now over that. What you're describing. And I've seen it and it's hurtful. It's hurtful to me because it doesn't represent the Lord.

There is a, nor is it new. Nor is the, the strategy to take what is good and pure and influential and twisted to toward one's agenda. That's not new at all. We can go back thousands of years and find that.

“But it reminds me of this disappointing conversation that Jesus had in the Bible with the religious leaders at the time.”

It was very frustrated that the only time you see Jesus really, really frustrated. It wasn't what people who may have had colorful experiences in life. In fact, he seemed to gravitate more toward them. Jesus frustrated was what the religious leaders and here is this one point he said. He said, "You guys don't. I'm paraphrasing now. This is the Torah translation." He says, "You guys aren't getting it right." He said, "But what's worst is you're keeping the people who need it from getting it right."

And that's how I feel. Jesus never called himself a Christian. They were believers. He said those who believe. Those who believe. So Christian is kind of, in the Bible, they call themselves Christians when they were trying to figure out what they call themselves because they weren't these Gentiles or non-Jewish people. We're trying to figure out what they're doing. Jesus said, "Bleaf." And not only do they believe, he said, "And people will know that you're the truth by your love." Okay, so we're getting to what he said.

But the other reason is that term now, it means so many different things. It's ultimately it's saddens me. And so to that person who's like, you know, when I hear about Jesus, I'm good, but when I see people who call his name, here it is, I don't have peace.

Okay, so follow that. If you have peace when you hear that Jesus is a lover and that Jesus is for the outcast and that resonates deeply, find follow that.

If you see someone who's talking about Jesus, but he is, or she, they're criticizing the marginalized or they're, you know, promoting, you know, politicians with very, very questionable ethics, then trust the absence of that peace. But, you know, my belief is that if someone just categorically is repulsed by Jesus, they either don't have enough information about him or somewhere got some bad info. And Jesus is irresistible, irresistible. We have to take the word Christian back. I like to take the word Christian back. I think that there's a lot of confusion between like imperfect humans and God's perfect love.

That sort of thing right now, and that's been something I think about a lot lately, is because I hear people saying, I mean, there's people that there's there's this whole movement now in the country where people don't even want to identify as a, they don't associate themselves with the word citizen, because they even start to feel like that is now affiliated with a political party. They want to be a neighbor, but not citizen. Like there's people feeling strong feelings against the flag of the country or against a particular faith, and it's like, wow, it's just so divided right now.

“I think people in my opinion, God's love more than ever.”

I'm challenged by what you said in a really really good way. You said, we've got to take the word Christian back, that that's got to, I'm going to be driving in my car thinking about that because that's true.

Even if we don't, even if it's not about a title, but it's about an identity.

Yeah, that's, you know, as a leader, as a, you know, but God's grace, a major leader in the Christian church. You just charged me, you know, I mean, of course, we're going to be it, but to, to not be so discouraged.

That you just abandon that and start something new, but to put a stake in the ground and say, this is Christ.

That's powerful. That's, that's really, that's a very, that's the view to speak the truth right now, the truth tied to knowing, and someone says, what's a Christian? What's the truth? What is the, who is a Christian? What would you say to her?

“What's the truth? The truth is a Christian who, a Christian is someone who really knows God, who really knows Jesus, who knows Jesus is heart.”

It's heart for people who understand Jesus's agenda to, to ultimately in the process of time annihilate everything that is anti-human, that is anti-evil. I mean, so good, so, so radiatingly good, that his very essence and presence illuminates and extinguishes darkness. This is Jesus, and this is not violent.

This is, this is love. It's powerful, and it expels everything that isn't love. And I'm not just talking about the behavior of those who are deranged.

I'm talking about negative thoughts. I'm talking about fear. I'm talking about ideas of worth was says, that's as violent as some of the things that we're saying to not believe about ourselves, to not believe that we are worthy. That is violence too, to not believe that I am loved, and I am valuable, and I'm worth something, and I've got an incredible plan. That's violence too, so a Christian is someone who really gets Jesus understands that Jesus's whole mission and mandate is love. Jesus didn't have love. He was love, and is passionately intentional about diligently expressing that love in any way that it can be expressed, to be creatively.

“To be creative in their expression of God's love forever, the in-period. That's what a Christian is.”

Yeah, and when I think of a Christian, I think of learning to love God and love your neighbor, and I think of Jesus, I think of healing the sick, and feeding the poor, and supporting the marginalized, and loving and including and wrapping your arms around the least and the lost. To me that is that love. I feel in my being that I give Jesus a right here. He will love you, no matter how you vote, no matter your past mistakes, no matter your failures, no matter your shortcomings, you're this, you're that, and he brings together in you nights, and it's in so many ways the opposite of what's being represented out there right now.

Yeah, I think, yeah. I had to tell you something. I, this was about 15 years ago, I was laying in my bed, and a presence arose, and I instantly knew that this presence was Jesus.

It was almost as if he was, he just had, there was no definable ethnicity. That was the first thing.

Second thing was he was extremely powerful, but it was all reserved, and so in other words, if he wanted Mount Rushmore to just turn into sand, it could happen without him even flinching. He could just will it, and it would happen.

“So it was strength under the major constraint. The, the third thing was there was this deep deep looking his eyes, and I was trying to understand, what is this, it was just a very, very piercing deep look, what is that?”

And then, and he was like, you know what it is, and it was like souls is how I feel about people. I'm serious about people. I don't see them as, I, they are, they are my focus.

But the fourth thing was really, really heavy, and his presence had an atmosphere that was overwhelming, and that atmosphere was love. It was not an emotion. It was not a feeling. It was literally a realm. And in that realm, it was impossible to access unforgiveness, bitterness, offense.

“I mean, it could be someone who had done the worst thing to you. You couldn't even access it in this environment.”

That's Jesus. Very powerful could do, could will, could any, he could do anything without even thinking about it, just will it, and it would be so, and yet he doesn't.

It could care less about distinction, could care none of it matters whatsoever, is very, very serious about the human soul, the human being, and I like it. I like that he said soul, because there are people in there hurting in their souls right now. Yes, they can be struggling with emotional things and mental things and physical things, I get that. But what is more damaging than any of that is to have your soul damaged. And to feel worthless is it wound the soul, to feel less than, to feel that that goes beyond your mind. It affects everything goes beyond your mind. That's a soul wound, because I am a soul. At the end of the day, I'm Turei, you know, I'm a man, you know, but I am a soul, the deepest part of me is my soul. And that's what Jesus sees.

And the love, the commitment to the soul and the love. So if it doesn't look like that, and listen, you're right, we are all trying to get there, but there ought to be some semblance of that type of love, that type of grace, that type of mercy, that reveals and validates the fact that this person really, really knows God.

“I think, by the way, I've gotten to none of my questions on my cards, because also I want to say one thing to you in case I forget to tell you this before you leave.”

When you and I, when you mean Sarah, we're talking in the cottage before this, and I was like, I don't know the show is so much work. Like I was talking about, I don't know, you know, like the show is this podcast is so much work. I am having so many moments in this conversation where I'm like, okay, this is why I have to do this podcast, this is why I have to do this podcast because the things you're sharing, like if I'm crying over here, over and over, I don't cry that often, let's show, but if I'm crying over, I'm thinking about the person at home and how they're having so many epiphanys, all how moments about things and thinking about

are they tuned in in any way, shape or form, so knowing as you describe it, to to divine intelligence and what that looks like and have they been maybe turning down the volume on their own faith because of the misrepresentations of faith out there right now and are they ready to go, okay, that's actually separate. Let me get back in touch with what I know, teacher word, what I know feels like peace and feels true and how do I invest in that and not get distracted. I'm also, how do I have hope in the bigger plan you talk about, okay, we're here 105 years, let's say, but you're about zooming away, right and and it's so easy and our human bubble to go, oh my gosh, AI and this and that and did it, it's like, okay, yeah, also zoom way out on the bigger plan talk about divine intelligence over all of this.

I want to ask you in your words for the person listening right now, who would you say this book is for and also what can they expect when they get at home or when they grab it right now on audible.

I'll answer the second question first, they're going to be so many questions answered, there's going to be so much clarity when they they finish reading this book.

They will be clearer than they've ever been before and I'm not just saying this because I wrote it in a way, I feel like I didn't write it to be honest with you. I, I was very yielded, my focus was love and so when you read it, you will literally feel love you'll feel someone who's on the journey like you perhaps a few steps ahead.

“But you will feel seen, you will feel known, you will feel love. I think it's for honestly, I think it's for anyone because all of us are in this place where we are seeking.”

Everything is shaking around us. I can't think of any part of life right now that isn't shaking in some way. And that's okay as long as I know that I've got some footing that I can rely upon, but I think that they're going to feel closer to God. My life is going to make a little bit more sense. I think that there's some who are on the brink of a decision, a transition and they don't have clarity about it. I think they're going to put close that book with clarity about what to do next without a doubt.

But they're going to walk away with a sharpened sense of awareness, confidence, knowing.

“And I think it's going to be an aligning book that shifts the trajectory of lives. I really do. I really do.”

How do you deal? When we were talking in the cottage, and you know, we shared a little bit and you kind of thinking about next and I knew that whether it was just rest or a moment of stillness or whatever. I knew that clarity was going to kick in. I don't know, can I just be, is everyone in this, if I were to give you a word? Yes. Okay. I did a series in church. I did it twice called the modern church. And the premise of that series was that what keeps people from really leaning into their calling is that they think that it has to look a certain way.

And that's one of the reasons why I started called leaders and it's for us, not for pastors. I mean, pastors can come, but it's for entrepreneurs and business leaders because they haven't quite made the connection between what they do and they're calling and I think it's separate, but it's the same. And you are, and this term is going to, it might even feel weird. But you are functionally in God's order and evangelist. And the evangelist has an anointing to draw an impact a lot of people. And I mean, I can really unpack the whole thing, but I want to highlight that.

“And the modern evangelist is not, you know, the amy simple McPherson's of the world. You have to study her. She's amazing that, you know, had a big church and was going around reaching people.”

What's interesting with her is that she, and she was a, like a pastor in the 1920s, you know, she built this incredible church, but it was right here in L.A.

And she used media to reach the masses of people. She used arts, creativity, media, and her legacy is still, the movement she started is still going. That was in the 20s.

And when you feel people, Sarah's an evangelist too, she's some other stuff. She's an evangelist. When you feel people, you can reach people.

And, and so God has given you incredible, incredible influence.

And this podcast, I mean, you've had, you've had everybody on this podcast, and it's done extremely well, but it's something that you carry. It's not even about them. It's about you. It's about the, the, even, as you talked about the gentleman that you kind of helped to reduce, that's all, that's all a part of it that that's the technical, you're basically saying, this is how you reach people. Why? Because you're an evangelist. You're wired to reach into impact people.

“And I think that this, it's interesting. We wanted to talk show. The studios are getting rid of the talk show because the industry is moving toward this.”

So, but I don't think that it's even going to stay here. I think that you're going to with the fresh wind of creativity.

You're going to evolve this into like this multi-tiered, multi-vertical thing that multiplies the influence that you're already having. So, this is calling. This is calling. You don't have to go and get a business garden say evangelist Jamie Gurneyma. I'm just telling you spiritually who you are and what you carry. And it's going to get real good. And God is going to attract some of them are already here. Some are coming. Wonderful people who will not allow the weight to be imbearable and they will complement your gift, your size that will sharpen you.

So, take your strengths, all the strengths that you have is going to be multiplied because of the people that God is going to send you. And the idea is in the infrastructure. And so, this is about calling. And that's everything I'm about. And I wrote that book, honestly, I just feel like so many people are going to find God because of that book. And they're going to find God. I was talking to Sarah this morning. They're going to find God through the vehicle of knowing the curiosity. And it doesn't, I mean, you read it. I don't back away from Christ in the book, but it also doesn't shove them down.

“It's all about knowing. And Christ is weaved into that knowing. But that's what God has made really clear to me is that a lot of people are going to meet him through that book.”

And if it's the last book I wrote, you know, I don't know if it will be I have other books in me, but I'm not thinking about anything other than this book right now. I think it's going to reach people in a real big way.

Well, first thank you for what you just said. I receive that. And that's what I'll be thinking about tonight.

The tools in this book to you. And I'm not even, you guys, I'm not even scratching the surface in our conversation of what's in here from the power of I am statements to how you talk about the power of our words, our words, create worlds. There's so much in here. And my very last question is why do you think so many people feel called and don't step into it fully? Oh, it's terrifying. Yeah. I think a few things. One, I think that it is difficult to recognize a call without a voice of affirmation. You need someone to make you think you're not crazy or overzealous.

You know, my hope is that the book will be that voice for some to let them know, "Hey, you're not crazy, you're called." And then it is a little scary. You know, it requires a leap of faith, steps of faith, but the awesome thing is, you know, a step of faith is it feels like you're stepping out on nothing, but that's not true.

“You're stepping out on what you know. And the only way that you can feel what you know come to fruition is if you step, because your steps have been pre-order.”

It's already done, but if you don't move, you know, if you don't breathe toward what you know, then you cannot feel the pavement that looks like nothing. Yeah, I'm thinking about Peter and the story and Peter is in a boat. Peter sees Jesus walking on water. Peter says, "Hey, if that's really you, let me walk on water too." And Jesus says, "Come." Peter gets out the boat and he starts walking on water.

Jesus says, "Yeah, confirmation, come." He starts walking on water. He does it. People focus on the fact that he started sinking later. You know when he started sinking is when he started making his reality his circumstances and not his knowing.

So if you make your reality your circumstances your circumstances will drown you, but if you tap into your knowing and you live in your knowing, you'll do the never been seen before.

“All right, I've got no mascara left. Holy moly, all right. Tory Roberts, go get your copy right now of knowing it is everywhere books are sold on audible. How can people find you?”

Everything Tory Roberts, website, Instagram, for heads, YouTube, you know, the whole Facebook, the whole gamut, TikTok. All of it, all around the world too. I will link to everything as well in the show notes and in all of our stuff. So if you're listening right now, you can literally just look down on your app right now, click and go pick up knowing. And I know, I know you're going to love it. I know you're going to love it and it's going to profoundly impact your life. I can say that with confidence. I'm so grateful you're here in person. What a gift to see you in Sarah.

We were walking over here to the studio and I was like, I got two friends for the price of what I'm like, what a good day. What a gift. Thank you so much. Thank you. Remember this episode's not just for you and me, please share this with every single person you know because it can impact and change their life to. And if you love today's episode, click the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening to it on or watching it on.

“And if it added value to your life, if you could please give it a rating or review, a love a great five star, I would be so grateful. And again, just share with everyone you believe in. Maybe it's another person in your life who can benefit from it.”

Someone who's making a change in their career or their marriage or their health and needs to tune into their knowing. Please post it and share it with others online or in your community who just make me the words and tools and lessons in this episode today.

You never know whose life your meant to change by sharing this episode.

And thank you so much for joining me before you go though. I want to share some words with you. It couldn't be more true. You right now exactly as you are are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it's an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Cremley Michelle here. I hope you'll come as you are. Heal where you need.

Blossom what you choose journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You're worthy, you're loved, you are love, and I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Cremley Michelle. In life you don't sort the level of your hopes and dreams you stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build yourself worth you change your entire life and that's exactly why I wrote my new book worthy.

How to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill worthy is for you. In worthy you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back. Build unshakable self love. Unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness. Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more.

“Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you are born to be?”

Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth.

Get your copy of worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below.

Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief and I love to hang out with you even more especially if you can use an extra dose of inspiration.

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