Stop Letting Emotions Make Decisions with Emma Grede

If you want to add free episodes, bonus content and AMAs where I answer your questions directly, it's all there. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all of that, I want you to go to Jefferson.supercast.com or you can check the link in the description below to join. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast. Today my guest is my friend, Emma Greed. She is the founding partner of Skims, as well as the co-founder and CEO of Good American and has a

roster of businesses and foundation boards and shows that she is a part of this woman is incredible.

Today's episode started with me confessing something big to Emma and that is the first time I met her at her podcast, "A Spire," which is in the Skims office there in LA. I was actually intimidated. Before I even met her all of her team showed up and let me tell you what, she has a very firm control over what exactly she's doing at business. And so this was my very first interaction with her, so we get to have fun with that. Also, she has a book coming out called "Start with Yourself,

a new vision for Work in Life," which is out today, links down there in the show notes.

“We also took a deep dive on being direct. What does it mean? How to do it without apology and with confidence?”

We talk family, we talk career, we talk business, and we also talked about that other beword. Balance. If there even is such a thing, I hope you enjoy. I have to tell you, when I was on your podcast, was that a few months ago? Almost a year ago.

It was what was it? It was almost. You were literally like, "The first, one of the first interviews

I ever did, and I was like, "I cannot believe I'm speaking to Jefferson." It's like, "Dane too." That was true. It was true. I get up there, and I, you know, I don't wear skims. I don't wear, I don't, you know, the jeans. So, I get up there, and this is, I think it was, it might have been at skims, like, one of the places, obviously, I need to get up, they don't, on the brand name. I'm going to say, "Holyly, clearly, you need to say,

“well, you need to update your life well." That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, I need to update your life well.”

Why do you wear skims? I don't have to snap. Hey, the new collab. Okay, so anyway, I get up there, get off the elevator, and everybody was just buzzing, all right, and it felt like the movie devil-worse product, which I've only seen once, but it was like, I'll see, I'm like, "Okay, who is this woman?" I was like, I was like, "I know, I was like, oh my gosh, should I be worried of like, because everybody in your office was like, had it down to a T, look serious, and was moving,

and going, and eight different things are happening at once. And all I know, it was like, she's almost here, and I was like, "Well, this is probably happening." I remember, I remember being you that way. Yeah, I remember being in the little podcast, like, beautiful little waiting room, and they're like, "She's miscreate about to be here with you." And I was like, "Oh, my, okay, everybody was like, you better be ready." And you come in, okay? And you were the most

charming laughing, just spurting out just the most casual, easy going. That being said, also, the one that I could tell, "Oh, if she wanted to, she could crank the temperature on everybody even more." Like, I knew in the background, I was like, "She's one of the most charming people I've ever met." But I know that deep down, this is not somebody that you mess around with. So, I can say, "I feel like you've got me in one." Yeah, yeah. I'm living proof that the stuff

the book that you have, start with yourself works. It's a, it's so joke. My podcast is in a cupboard

“in my office, and it's the only way it would work for me, right? It has to be right there.”

And when I interviewed you, it was right in the, like, the super, super early days. I interviewed Jay Shelley, and then you, and I was like, "Oh my god, like this is so crazy." But again, of course, because of who you are. I think Cardi B. Yeah, I think Cardi B. Yeah. It's not the same thing. Yeah, me and Cardi B is a very easy, very natural, same say. That's just lovely people with the stuff, with the, with the voice that just puts you in. It's because we can, oh, it's the same thing.

It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's also Cardi. Yeah, please, your book,

all right, start with yourself. At first, I thought, you know, I got it, and I said, okay, this is,

is this, is it almost wrong to have that mentality? And I think it's that contrast, Emma, that maybe go, I'm going to keep reading and understanding that, no, it's, it's about making sure that you can't control everybody else, but you can control yourself. And when you say, before I blame

yourself? And so once I had that type of perspective switch, I said, okay, this is, this is really great. And we're going to keep talking about the book throughout the episode. But as you have just such a depth of experience that I don't think as many people appreciate, I just the level of

“things that you have to, you get to, not have to, you get to manage and be responsible for”

and balance and, and juggles. And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do.

The first question I want to ask Emma is what you don't do. So what are some things that you find

and maybe in meeting with somebody? What do you think is, and let's put it in the business context first, what's a red flag that you see that others might miss in business relationships? Oh, you know, first of all, I'm going to, first of all, I'm so happy to speak to you today, and I'm so happy that I get to speak to you in this context around the book. You know, I, there are so many red flags, but a big one for me is when it starts on, what do you

do? Oh, yeah, yeah. What up? Like, hello? Who are you? How are you? Like, what do you know?

“To me, that's always a red flag. And you know, I think the in business you can”

understand so much about a person from that initial introduction. Like, you know, when someone sees you,

you know, when someone sees past you, and I'm a real people person. Like, I will not remember your name, but I will remember how your grandfather came into the country. But that's also because I bother to ask you that question. And so to me, I like to figure out, in business or otherwise, that the essence of a person. Like, who are you? Like, how do you come here in this room? And so when somebody starts, like, trying to figure out, like, what's in it for them? How can I help them?

That's like a red flag to me. I'm like, you're already out. It's already out. When it starts really superficial. When it starts really superficial, I can see it. Yeah, and I think that's something that

the older you get that changes, right? Like, I am, you know, I'm 40. I keep telling everyone I'm 42.

I'm 43. My husband cat to come and stop me the other day. He's like, I've heard you say it three

“times today. You're 43. So I'm 43 now. And I think that part of even this journey of that I've just”

been on right in this book for the last couple of years. Like, you get close to yourself. You start to understand so much about who it is that you are. And so I'm just very interested in in understanding other people and what makes them uniquely who they are. And you said in your book and I've seen some other interviews. Because I listen to you too. Emma, it's not just, it's not just one way. It's not one way. It's not just one way. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a two-way road of

understanding also the value or at least not, not being afraid to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional where you don't have to, because it's almost worse when somebody starts with the gloss, the fake when you know they're, they're going to be asking for something. What I'm saying is just own that. I would rather you own that than trying to be genuine. So do you see that as something that you go, I can already tell that they're wanting something

from me and it's, how does that process for you? Yeah, and I don't want to shy away from that, because there's a woman in business. I think they're often we're kind of trained to kind of like have this almost like performative, polite, nurse, soft ambition, idea that we're not trying to get something. I'm like, we're here to make money. Big, that's the purpose of business. Like, that's okay in that context. And so I don't like to, I'm a very straightforward person with a very

higher moral baseline. You know exactly what I want, because I told you, not because I'm trying to hide behind something and then like sneak it around the back. I think that that intentionality of being forthright, being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are. It actually takes all of the crap out of business. And so I wrote this book. You know, by the way, I want to people to use, not just to buy it and to read. I was like, how do you create something that

is useful? And it's about self leadership. It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world. We can't control what other people are going to do. But we can control the way we come into a space, the way we behave, the energy we put in, right? And so I think that that is really

I get such a treasure talking to you. Now, this is the second time we've had the chance

to meet. And of course, we've communicated since. But what a treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses. And somebody who is a woman and a woman of color and to say, okay, I know that when somebody asks me a white male, say how do you say things direct? And I know my perspective is just one. And I will get comments which are very well received of that would work for me. That doesn't work

in the, and I'm a woman does not going to work for me. You don't understand what that's like. In the answers, I do not know what that's like. That's correct. And so here I have to me an expert that I couldn't think is any more positioned for this kind of advice. So in your world as a business woman, how do you speak with directness? Just like a white guy. No, let's not do that, please.

Here's the ring. You know, it's really funny because I feel like this, I mean, to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right? I married to a white man. A lot of my investors, a white man. And in so many ways, you know, early I modeled the behavior that I saw

“all around to me. I think I'm a really straight shooter. And I think a lot of that was informed”

from where I was born. I was born in East London, which is like the hood, you know, and so this idea of having a high moral baseline, I didn't realize, I thought that was my personality. I didn't realize that came from where I was from, but you tell the truth, you, you know, you're true to your word. If you say you're going to do something that you do it, and I carried all of those traits into business. And I think that so much of business is about

how you behave and not what you say. It's like, how do you follow up? How do you leave people feeling?

How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction? It's never about like one individual

moment. And so I think that what I've built in my reputation over the years is the ability and the freedom to be really forthright, because people know who I am. They know that I'm going to come good on my word. They know that I am going to do exactly what I say, and that I'm not full of it. And so I really have kind of spent my career, not so much watching what I say, but watching what I do, and that has really, really served me well. And what's so interesting, you know, now that I'm

on this, this kind of book tour, you know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me. Three. Oh, where? And thankfully, thankfully, they're writing really nice things about me, because, you know, it's like, how you treat people on how you leave people feeling. That has the biggest

“impact than any kind of single thing that you can say. And so I think that I, um, I don't know,”

I try to be very just who I am, and I make no apologies for it. I think everybody always knew

that I was very ambitious. And I have been, I think, working away for the last 25 years to make that a more attractive term for women, because it isn't used in the same way for women as it's used for men. And I'd like to like to change that a little bit. I think you are. I think you are ambitious, you know. That is such a quote. Have you, did you come up with that? The, uh, I don't watch what I say. I'll watch what I do. Like that is. No, I didn't, but I'm taking it.

Did you just, did you just come up with that right now? I just came up with that now. Okay. Okay, Emma, that is, that is such a killer line. Like, you need your social team. All right, listen to me. I know they're listening right now. I'm going to tell them. You have to listen to me. They need to put this in a quote. I don't watch what I say. I watch what I do. Like that is, that is T-shirt mug or the,

“you need to do it because you said so. Yeah. No, okay. I think that's, that's a great point of”

ambition seems to be, have certain connotations with it when it comes to men. Ambition seems to be almost a negative trait when it comes to women. And I hear you saying, I want the, I want the change, I want to change that. And I think you're living example of that. When I hear you say, okay, to be very direct with somebody has a lot more of not just what I say.

this is where I'm living this. I get to kind of tease out how Inba thinks about things. So when

you're saying, okay, you're walking into the office. You have a room full. You know, it's crazy. Your schedules packed. You know, when you are about to enter into, okay, I have that breath of

“moment. I just got out of the car and about to go into the room. Where's your mind in that place?”

Is it, how do you, how do you balance the, the performative of I have to look the part and balance the personal of embodying the part? That is such a good question because all of us, we come with so much baggage, right? And when you're a mum of four, that my mornings are so intense, you know, by by A, M, I have trained. I've probably done one kids hair. I've had half a breakfast. I've got, you know, like, so much going on around me and I get in the car. I'm on a call and I walk

in the office and it's like, you know, the first, the first, like, meeting. I think the thing that

I really learn to do is to bring myself, like, into any situation, like, I'm not a multitasker. Like, I do the thing that's in front of me and I give it everything. And like, I am big on eye contact. If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like, it's all fun. Yeah, it's just over. I need, like, undivided attention. But in return, I give undivided attention. I'm a real, like, in the room person. And that is, by the way, a superpower

in business, because when you give undivided attention to matters, they get solved quickly. Like, I'm not going to have 20, 70 meals. They don't, like, everybody knows. As soon as

an email is passed to paragraphs, I'm not, I'm just, I'm not reading that. So it's like, I want the

speed, I want the connection and I want the concentration of, like, the whole thing. But I'm really somebody who's very mindful. Like, I know I have a very commanding presence. And so I know that the way I walk in has an effect on everyone. Like, you know, everyone will tell you in your office. I walk in, and I'm like, morning, everyone. And I'm also, like, I'm a channy cafe. So I'm like, what did you do this weekend? How was your Easter Sunday? Like, did you do an egg?

I've got a little, you know, it's like, I do that because I am, I like to be with the people and connect with everyone and understand where our way. And then we can get into it. And then we

“can be, like, really all about the business. But I, um, I think it's important to just have that”

level of presence. And that is a gift when we live, how we live right now. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about cozy Earth. I love having cozy Earth as a sponsor because I love wearing their stuff long before they were ever part of this show. The thing I like most about cozy Earth is just how soft everything they have is. I'm a big sweatshirt guy. I'm a big hoodie guy. I like that balance of we can wear like a hoodie and then some shorts. I'm one of

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“That's for sure. I think that it's become more a tune since I had kids because kids don't need”

that much but what they do need is that all of you. You can't be like half an an email, half having a conversation. And because my time is really finite with them, you know, I don't take my phone out of my bag when I come home from work. Because that couple of hours, that dinner time, bedtime, story time, that needs to be like unencumbered with whatever might be going on in my day, which is usually like a disaster. I only get problems. My whole day is a series of problems.

So I do really think that that is, it's a gift that you give yourself. It's a gift that you give the people around you, but it's probably like, it's just so important. And it's an underrated thing

it is a super power. If we could pull your team, because I know you have a lot of people

down on them, you know, the eye of your hurricane, that is Emma, if we were to pull so many polling, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, let's say, let's say you're, yeah, let's say you're top 20, let's say you're top 20, you know, what would they say in terms of communication that you excel at and some things that, yeah, you could do a little bit better. I mean that they would say I am clear, like nobody is ever wondering what Emma thinking, is that I already tell you,

like we're not waiting for an answer. I already tell you, like the, and I think that that is really important, like I'm in constant communication and when you run businesses, having clarity about the goals and I think that this has to go beyond the top 20, right? It's like, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and they all need to be going towards a common goal. And so when I express something and when I have a set of priorities for any given business,

“I need everybody working towards those. And so having that clarity is really important. So I think”

the people think I'm clear, they think I'm firm, right? I don't really suffer falls, but I think that they would say I'm there. I think the majority of people would say, wow, she was extremely demanding, but I learned a lot and she was really fair. On the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because I repeat myself all the time because that's about clarity of the vision, right? And I'm going to double double travel down. So somebody comes to me and

then I don't know what thing to work on. I'm like, wait a minute, we have to do it and the dirt and then up. So drop everything else and do something that works to one of those three things. So I'm definitely a repeater of ideas and a repeater just in the sense of like, I think it's an important clarity. I like that you said, I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair. I find that that's a characteristic, you know, I come from a family of teachers. My mom's a teacher, my sister's

a teacher. And that was one thing my mom would always say. Like she was known as kind of the

scary teacher at school, but she, at the end of the year, all of her students would love her because she was they realized it was for their good, it was for their benefit, that firmness. And I think you, you hit on something true is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over. How do you, like you said, you don't suffer fools? What's that mindset that you have when you're walking into the rooms that you're walking into in business to know? What's the secret to being

“firm in communication? I think the secret is, I would say that it is consistency, right? I don't”

think that you can be flip floppy and firm, like that's not going to work. You have to be really super consistent. An element of fairness, so I think that you know, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand, because people need to understand where am I, in all of this, like what bit is my responsibility, what part is, what part, like that? And when I say fairness, because again, like so little in the world is fair, but when you have consistency and when you're

fair with people, you have, you know, I did every job, Jefferson. It's like, I really was a person that worked their way up. I started in a cupboard in fashion PR and packed the boxes, I packed the samples, I wrote the notes, then I got onto a desk, then you know, you kind of like running around back shower fashion shows and like laying, flooring, I worked in production. It's like I did every single thing on the way up, which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's

part in a job, or in a production, or in a, right now, you know, it's like, they clothing organizations. I understand the junior merchants job, because I was there, and it's like, I know that stuff.

“And I think that when you are a firm person coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation”

for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place, which is people feel

seen and oftentimes the work isn't fair, right? It never feels that way, but if you feel that you're

seen and you're appreciated and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely brain, then I think that that changes everything. And I think that I get and have gotten to where

for it, and I appreciate them, and I have an understanding of them. And in that way, I think

people work extremely hard for me, and towards the things that I need, because they feel that intrinsically. I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about, specifically on how to speak with the reckness being firm, having ambition as a woman, again, because these are things that I can't express nearly as well as somebody else can. And so my question is like, when you see all these, like you've been a shark tank, when you've seen all these men, saying, this is how to do business,

this is how to do it. And you come in here going, yeah, I can do it just as well, and

and be able to spend five plates at the same time. What do you want to say to those men in the

moment, what are they, what are we, you know, missing when it comes to, is there like an unlock to say, this is a special way or is, let me ask, I'm going to, I'm talking right now, because I find this subject, I desperately desire to be able to help people, and especially women speak with more directness, and there's sometimes, I feel like I miss the point, and it's because I haven't been where they've been, and I haven't stood where they stood, and sometimes makes me feel

“helpless. And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them, what am I missing?”

No, first of all, the idea that you even think about it, like that, I think is such an excellent

starting point, and what I wrote about in the book, in start with yourself, is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision making, and I think for a lot of women, that is like a default, right, we are people places, we have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or or valued, we have a lot of guilt, right, that mum guilt is an actual real thing, and so in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision making, and I think

that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes, women have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviors that create wealth, that create this ability, that create leadership opportunities, and men don't have quite the same kind of difficulties in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, which doesn't impede their decision making in the same way, and so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book that really dismantle a lot of the lies

that we've been sold about, this stuff, this is supposed to be like a wake-up call for ambitious women, because if you want power and you want money and you want a career and you want to family and you want all of those things, you're not going to get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition, we have to have audacity, we have to get okay with the fact that there's going to be some

“discomfort that discomfort might be from somebody else around you, and Jefferson, what is important”

right now and what I want to be clear about and men can agree with this as well as women, but I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business, but in our economies, in our governments, politically, it's really clear to me and I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that women feel and they deeply ingrained thoughts, right? Like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist, and so what I wanted to do

was be a model for what is possible, because I really believe that you can't be what you don't say, and if we're constantly per this kind of idea of to be a good woman, there are all of these

“things that you have to do, that's really going to hold women back. So what I tried to do was just”

have a level of honesty about what it takes and what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order to kind of shift the mentality like really forward, like that's what I really care about right now. Before we get going, I want to talk to you about element. I know that in my busy lifestyle,

just drinking enough water. My body will just go coffee, you should have coffee, and my body also

says, "But please give people water." And so one solution, big solution that we've had in my family, is element, L-M-N-T. Element provides electrolytes. It's like this little packet. They come in different ways, but this one that I like to have is just a little salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water. I do about half, so it's not too salty. I like to eliminate flavor, and I love it anytime. After I work out, during a workout, after I run, when I'm on the go, I like because it's

just really no mess. Now my kids, they love it. They call it salty water. They really like to salt-serve version. I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are, and so they love it every time that

they get it. In fact, they treated it as almost like a dessert. So they will have dinner,

and then my son will beg for salty water. And so we let him have probably half of it because

“he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed, obviously. And so that's how we love”

element. It is just made for people that are on a mission, just like you, and just like me. And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. You can head on over to drink L M N T dot com slash Jefferson and try risk free today. That's element. Smart hydration for people going places. And now, back to the episode. Let me tell you, Emma, you did it. Okay, all that you wanted to do with this book. All right, you did it. I would I really appreciate

that you do in your book. And I happen to have my hands right now. Is you have these old thoughts

in the new thoughts, which I thought was great. It is so good. Not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through, what you do with your husband and your kids and the life and the balance and everything. It's really how you see things and what you do, what I think is so well done is you will lay out these old thoughts. And we all know what that is.

“These old scripts in our head of, I'm not going to be enough. I have to do this. The only way to”

achieve X is I have to go through Z and Y. And then you come up with these new thoughts. And you have these new thoughts right after it. After you kind of give the lesson. And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head. And you say, you don't have to do that. And you know what? I'm a living example of that. And so many of your lessons when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance. It is a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think

are actually, can I, can I share with you one of my favorite? Yeah, tell me. Yeah, okay. So this is one of the ones you have in career. And this, this is one that hit me is the old thought is your old mentorship and opportunity. And so I thought, like, okay, that's, boy, that's true in my life of times where at least in the legal profession. Yeah, you're, it's a sense of your old certain things. And there's that can feel that way. Like people go, oh, I'm not going to, I'm not going

to chase this because nobody's doing it for me. I guess nobody wants to help me. It's just all me and I'm not going to waste the time. And in the new thought that you have, after you talk about the story is, you are the creator of your own career and the responsibility for it is yours too. And I thought, okay, Emma, all right, Emma, that was good. Like it was so good of like, hey,

“you, nobody else is going to do that. And I think a lot of that, and I want to go into this real”

quick. So, is you are the oldest I believe before. Yeah. Okay, and you had a single mother. Okay. And I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have, the title of the book has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school with the work is was the, on the oldest of four, right? You are that, yeah, I'm a little to support. Yeah. I love this. This is why we're kindred souls. This is it, this is it. That's right. These old souls, right, that you didn't really

have, like me, like we, we didn't really have it. You didn't really have a childhood, you know, there's gaps of your life that you had to be the, the little parent, the little spouse. You had to take on opportunity. You had to take on things you had to, for go other enjoyment for the work that was ahead. I find a lot of these principles that you teach are, you know, lessons that are straight out of your, your life and how you do things now. I think that you're completely right about

"Oh, God, what was it like?" You know, I never for one second. That's sorry for myself as a kid.

Like, I never imagined like that this thing was put upon me because where I come from, like, you're just helped your mom. Like, we're going to do. You know, it's like, yeah, I could make, you know, a dinner for six people when I was 12, but that's been a really useful skill. I could clean the house. I could, you know, do a parent teacher conference at 12 years old. You know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice. And so there's a maturity level that

comes with that. There's a lot of, you know, less, I guess, less forgiving and less kind of great things that come out of that. But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which again, was very young because I dropped out of high school. I had such a bar. Like, I knew how to get things done. I was such a self-starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school. I had to wake everybody out of self and make patmanches and

iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house. Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah, I wouldn't even bother. But, you know, for me, it was not an imposition. It was like, I got head start in life because this was my reality. And when I got into the workplace, I was

“like, wow, I am so capable. I'm so bloody capable. And so I think that when you take, you know,”

and I think about this with my own kids, you know, because I do have four and nobody and they have everything down for them. And somehow it kind of robs you from like, like, who you're going to be, you know, and I'm like, trying to, I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids. But sometimes I think I should do, you know, I'm like, they would be so much more capable. But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did because there was no one, there was no one out there

coming to get me. I took four responsibilities for myself. And at the end of the day, this book is about self leadership. It's about self responsibility. And this really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realization. Like, there was no guy coming to rescue me. There was no boss. There was no mentor. I learned from Oprah. I learned from people in the magazines. I learned from like the bosses at my work experience. And when I say learned, like, I would just copy those

“people. That's what I did. Like Oprah would say something good. I would write it down and I would copy it.”

For years, I sat with my boss, like, behind me. So she could see my screen. And that was the early days of online shopping and everyone in the office was like, how annoying is it that you sit in front

of this woman because you can't do your online shopping. And I was like, it's amazing. I write down

everything this woman says. I wish it was a good line. I use it on my new business goals. And it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me. And so to me, especially now that I get asked, like, could you mentor me? And I do. I look up like so many of my staff and so many women. I do a call every day on the way to the office. Eight o'clock. We got on the phone. I speak to somebody for half an hour. But you can't wait for that stuff, right? You can't let it stop you. And what I

wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head. You know, like, I have this friend and I quote her in the book down on First

and Berg and she says, the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship we have with

yourself. I know I can talk myself into or out of anything. And so when it comes to like looking for people to help me, I'm like, well, I better be helping myself first. Because if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I want to be ready. And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience. And so it's like, I feel like I have gifted myself myself my whole life, right? It's like, I was the best I had. So it's like, I just had to work with that because there

was nothing else. And I feel like that's not a bad place. There's not a bad thing. No, not a bad thing at all. No. When I read that you were the oldest of four, I was like, okay, a lot of this is

“making sense here. Yeah. I think anybody who's the oldest child, you kind of have that old child.”

You know, mentality, you know, your parents didn't have to, I mean, they have to ask me to do anything. He just did it. He just did it from the youngest that we have. So yeah, I relate to that and what I find is so instructive to me and and everyone is that if you think that opportunities should be just put on your plate, you're just, that's the wrong thinking.

serving food. Like you have to go and there's a sense of hunger. I think that you have to have

“it. Listen, you might need to go out and kill an animal. I don't know where you can't like”

where you're going from. There might not be any shops open. There might not, you know, it's like,

you've got to do what you've got to do. But you know, there's something amazing about

doing that, making the best of yourself. You know, there's something incredible when you go card. Like, I came from here and now this is what life looks like. Like, that's incredible. It just takes such a long time. And I feel like, you know, again, I speak about this so much in the book because feel like social media is kind of conditioned us into this idea that, you know, you can listen your way to success, that somehow you can consume your way to success. And I'm

like, no, you can't. You've got to work. You don't have any choice. You know, you've got to like do something that you're kind of don't like and get pretty good at it to be given an opportunity to do something that you like a little bit more. And then eventually something that you really

love. But my experience is that it's always been that way. It's always been incremental. It's always

been a little bit. And I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give. But there's never been a moment where someone's gone like, here you go, lucky girl. You know, here's something that you didn't work for. And you've got to, you've got to put the work in. It's just that simple ambition has to find you working. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about time line. Now, when we talk about healthy aging, we typically like to think about diet, exercise, sleep,

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Time flies clinically from formula. It's now available at a new lower price. Might appear starts now at $79 when you go to timeline.com/jefferson. That's timeline.com/jefferson to learn more. And now back to the episode, is there a thought that has recurred in your own mind of whether it said you don't deserve this? It just right place right time. You didn't do this on your own. You had all the help in the world. Like these, I'm curious of what kind, what are the negative

“hardship thoughts that you or if they're any? Where are the thoughts that you have to fight against?”

Because they're always there. Yeah, you know, I'm obsessed with comedy. And I've watched like every Chris Rock special like back to front after precisely before you. But one that he always talks about is like at some point he gets like this house. They start beautiful dream house. And he says he's house is so good that he keeps a bag packed because he can't even imagine that like this would be his life. Like that this is like he's and he owns it. And I kind of

like feel like that's so much. I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week and Cardi like to me. I was like, I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B. I was like, oh, that feeling

of like never wanting to be poor again. Like the first word she said to me, I was like, we are

same. Me and Cardi B, same person. But that is something that I think for so long haunted me. This idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away and I would be poor again. And not even like just poor but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide like what I do. And so that is something that I feel like it's always going to be with me. I am always keeping the proverbial bag packed because I wake up in this beautiful room in Belair and I'm like,

that can't be my life. Like it just cannot. There's a little piece of that that I don't want

thinking like what's next? What's next? Don't rest on your laurels. Don't get lazy. There's also a piece of that that goes. There's thousands of hundreds of thousands of millions of kids like me and so how could you be useful and actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that actually have less opportunity could maybe have more

because I know that I can pinpoint all the moments of lift that happened and it wasn't always because

I was out maneuvering everyone like some stuff just like you know the stars aligned. But I guess that that the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind and it's somewhat fuels me. I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow. But I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there. It's like a scarcity type mindset. Like you're always, you never know when it's going to stop so you gotta keep going.

Yeah and there is a there is a listen. I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisage that because I have something more that you're going to get less. Right and I think that is a very female thing. That's not how I think at all. I don't believe in that but I do have that feeling for me. You know when I met my husband I said to him I don't go back in lifestyle.

“Like this is where we are now. I'm only going one way. It's going forward. So you have to come”

with me or that this is not going to work. And thankfully he was up for that challenge. That romantic challenge that I gave it. But that is really important to me. Like it's like I have been very

purposeful about the life that I built. And I think it's my job to keep me moving forward to always

be emotion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done. I will never feel like that. I know that in my own world, you know, we all do and I know you talk about your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women, can almost outtalk themselves out of an opportunity. Is that something that you find often? Yeah. I mean, I see it around to me often. You know, I never had and this is hard for people to understand. I never had imposter syndrome.

And it was literally down to my mum. My mum is like such a fierce lady. You know, she is like five foot nothing. She's like white and blonde. And she has these like daughters that are like, you know, black with like big curly hair. And my mum was fierce. She was like, you are going to need

“to learn to look after yourself. And you have to know Emma that you're not better than anyone else,”

but nor is anyone better than you. And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life, thinking exactly that. I was like, nobody's better than me. Like literally you could go to Ian or the Harvard, but you're not better than me. And I really imagined that. Like, I was that I took it in. And so in my head, I thought, if I work really hard and if I throw everything that I've got it, I can be as successful as anybody else. But that was my starting point. You know,

my mum gave me that. And because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked. But I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book. I got more confident. I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it, to start a business to fail. And so that's not to be like, there's something wrong with me. I was like, that situation didn't work out.

That was the wrong set of circumstances. I made this mistake, but I never internalised it.

I was like, I'm not right through it. So I've always had this kind of like distance to what it is that I'm doing. And I never thought that anything was about me. I was just like, that was that, you know, and I want to impart that on as many women as I can, because in Poster syndrome,

“it's fake. It's not real. It's made up. It's in your mind. And so you have to create the conditions”

and change the way that you think about what is possible for you. In what are thoughts that you live by that other people, you may be listening or reading your book, might think are radical, are there things that you live by that other people go, well, this is something that is definitely against the grain of what we've been told. Yeah. Oh, God. Okay, this is going to be the popular part for me in the podcast.

This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson. Oh, okay. I've got it. Okay. Well, I think that work, life balance is a myth. And we all know that I think that anyone who's been listening to me knows that. I think it's the wrong goal, right? Like, I have seen in my life, and because I believe that life of work and it all comes in seasons, there is a moment

no fucks given. Like, no, like, you're just going to go in. And there is a time when, you know,

“like, right after you have a baby, for example, when you don't have a choice to do that, you have to”

like lean out a little bit and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself. But I think that this idea that we've created in culture, that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists and until you've found it, nothing's going to work out for you. Like, that's BS. Like, you need, like, to have a great career and a great business, like, you need proximity. You need visibility. You can't, like, you don't get good

over a Zoom call. Like, you need to be in the room. If you're not like around me, you're not

going to see how I move. You're not going to understand, like, the pace of what we're trying to do, what the, like, company is all about. So I think that that is something in culture right now, that we've just got a specifically for women, like, stop looking for balance. Look for the things that you want and go after that and understand, like, the timing of your life. I also think the

“timing of your life is a really important one and something I think about, like, this idea that,”

you know, women have been told, just like, wait and wait and wait to have a child. Like, there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality, right? I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying, waiting until your 39 years old probably isn't a good idea. So the idea that, you know, it's like, you've got to find this, that mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems. I'm like, find someone that you laugh and have a

baby, like, maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told. It won't be the end of your life. It's okay. Like, it's just, it's okay. And I think that what happened is that, like, people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas. Like, parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult. And that's why in this book, I talk so much about having a vision for yourself, not vision boredying, not manifestation. Like, how is it that I wanted to

leave? What is important to me? What are my principles and the stuff that I care about? Because then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to, like, some chick that you saw on social that, like, cut her kid's sandwiches into stars. Like, that's not important. What's important is, like, what's important to you and it's different for you than it is for me. And so what I like to do is set my own standards. I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise

that is like coming in and around me. I like to say, this is important to me and these are my goals as a parent and these are my goals as a wife and these are my goals as a business woman.

“And I'm going to go after that without apology. Like, that's what I think is important.”

And tune out all the noise because he knows us inside. Like, nobody's watching you. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you. So he can pretty much like just do your thing and not be worried about it because people don't have time. They literally don't have time. Absolutely no notes. I can tell you have no notes of that, Emma. Start with yourself a new vision for work in life. Immigrate. This is so so good. I am honored to be able to support it.

I want everybody to read it and I'll be sending make sure that everybody in my community. I know it's how important this book is. Emma, thank you so much for your time.

It's always the best. It's always your diamond. This is so lovely.

Please play your family high for me and until the next part. I'm saying to yours for me. Take care, my life. Thank you. Bye.