#2496 - Julia Mossbridge

>> The Joe Rogan experience.

“>> Join my day Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.”

[MUSIC] >> Pleasure to meet you. >> Yeah, I'm very excited. >> So you said you had questions for me, we start with your questions. >> Excellent.

>> Personal tell everybody what you do. >> Okay, let me just change the angle.

>> Just so folks, just tune in right now, I'm going to say,

who is this young lady. >> Thank you. >> I'm a year younger than you. >> They go to the New York. [LAUGH]

>> Nice. >> What do I do? I was trained as a scientist, cognitive neuroscience and computer science and did some AI stuff. Did some stuff with a human brain in terms of trying to understand how time works in the human brain. And then I got really interested in how funky time works in the human brain.

Like pre-cognition, which is, of course, predicting future events in ways that we don't normally think of. >> That's how I found out about that. >> That's new is the popular mechanic, because I recall. >> Yeah, I believe so. >> Yeah.

>> And then a bunch other stuff that I looked at. >> And then a bunch of other stuff, yeah. And then I got interested in just the idea of what we call exceptional human performance. So I actually don't think it's that exceptional.

“I think people have these capacities and they've been dampened down and they're in us.”

And they can be developed and some people have them just sort of naturally. I'm a person who has some of them just naturally, not all of them. But there are people all over who have these different gifts and how does that work? And so that became a question that was interesting to me.

>> Well, it's always interesting when this question is asked by an actual scientist.

So you approach it by, let's try to gather data. Let's try to find out what we can actually show. Because so many people have feelings that there's something else. Like there's you have intuition, you have some sort of pre-knowledge of events and some feeling of something. You're thinking of someone that call you, is that real?

You know, that kind of stuff is always puzzled people. So it's always fascinating when someone like yourself actually spends a lot of time studying it and trying to gather data and trying to show what's real and what's not and what you can actually show. >> I agree it's fascinating. I'm not sure it matters, so I mean, my experience has been that sort of regardless of how much time I spend studying it and how much I see it and how much I can test different controls to make sure it's not this that or the other thing and that really is getting information from the future or it really is telepathy.

People still kind of don't in the science world tend to just ignore it. Or it actually is actively suppressed. I mean, there's some papers that I've published that just won't get listed in Google Scholar even though they're in peer review journals with other articles that do get listed in Google Scholar. So there's it's frustrating and who cares because it's just an academic complaining, but I'm also not an academic and I also want to build things I'm into making stuff. So I got my PhD at these tier one research institutions like Northwestern got my master's it. You see a San Francisco I did my postdoc at Northwestern so fancy dancing institutions.

So I learned a lot about how to how to how to think and how to write and how to do these kind of experiments and I know what I'm seeing and I keep seeing it and other people who study the same stuff keep seeing it. But it is it is inside of me or there's something inside of me that wants to create things with this. Okay, so this is happening people have these capacities you know they're actually useful what can we do with them and it turns out you can do a lot. With them if you feel like you are allowed to have them if it doesn't feel like it's verbotent if it doesn't feel like shameful which is part of the cultural piece or foolish or foolish which is part of the questions I wanted to ask you.

Okay, so what I noticed when you talk with people is you're and you're like you seem like a tough guy, but you're really sensitive like you're an incredible obviously an incredible listener and you learn all these things. And you're putting together just this is my impression you're putting together a kind of a map of the world like a map of knowledge of the world through all these different people's eyes and my question for you is how do you see culture shifting.

“Because I think you're really sensitive to it and I think you're kind of like one of these signal fish that are the you notice what's happening in the environment and you're going to guide a school of fish accordingly.”

So do you think that the culture is shifting towards sort of better use of these. I guess exceptional or these natural capacities that we already have or do you think that we're shifting away from it and we're going to run away in fear.

Okay, so I think that because of conversations like the ones that you've had and the ones that I've had the ones that are available online, I think people get a much deeper understanding of so many different topics.

Many different things than has ever been available through whatever you want to call the mainstream media.

And when you have these inherent prejudices in higher learning, whether it's people that don't you don't want to be foolish. So they don't want to entertain certain notions or they don't want to accept certain things because it goes against things that they've taught. And things they wrote about we have a problem of ego and ego becoming a wall to gathering more information or getting a better detailed map of the landscape.

“And I think there's way more people that are pondering these ideas and having these conversations and thinking about these things than has ever been before.”

And I think that's one of the really beautiful things about the internet. The internet is made much more information available and many more people are thinking about these things in ways that. You know, if you were in an environment where your career depended upon you following certain lines and certain narratives, you wouldn't pursue that because that would be detrimental to your own personal interest. Like if you wanted to get ahead in academia and all of a sudden you're talking about psychics and premonition and, you know, people are like, "Oh, Julia's a fucking loon."

But you're courageous and you see value in these things. And because you can come on here and talk about it instead of just addressing a class or selling a book that's going to reach a few thousand people, we can have a conversation where 10 million people are going to listen. And so then those 10 million people are going to go to work and they're going to tell their friends at work. They're just, you know, you know how that feeling that you get or sometimes you know something's going to happen and happens like that might be real.

And then there was this lady, she was on the Joe Rogan podcast and she was on and so that opens up people to this idea that you don't have to worry about being a fool.

“Because that's what a lot of people worried about.”

It was a big hurdle talking about aliens UFOs.

Like all my life, all my life, I've always been fascinated by UFOs and aliens, but I don't mind being a fool.

Like I was fascinated by bigfoot forever kind of abandoned that for the most part. But I like weird stuff, I'm interested in it and I don't, I'm not a person that needs to be taken seriously. It's not my job, I'm literally a comedian. Like you can make fun of me, I'll make fun of me, it's fine. I don't, it doesn't, my future doesn't rely on people taking me seriously.

“So I think having that ability to have conversations about all kinds of different things is really changed the way the entire world is discussing just reality.”

Like everything about reality, from quantum computing to alien life to international politics to the way human beings misrepresent each other, purposefully for their own gains, like, what is all this? Like, and why, why is it taken so long to have so many discussions about this? So I think that's, if I have a purpose in this world, it's like, I'm an antenna for that. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

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And when you are ready to launch, use the code rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Yeah, I tell I'm just clapping because it's such a great purpose because, you know, the reason I fell in love with science was it's about discovery. It's about not knowing.

It's about being foolish. I had this, I was just thinking today I had this amazing high school biology teacher who had us go outside and he gave us these little note cards.

And he said on one side of the note card, I want you to write a question about your environment. Look around, you know, the plants or whatever, pick something, the dirt, whatever. And write a question you think Einstein would ask about this. And then he said, okay, now flip it over and I want you to write a question that like a two year old would ask if a two year old would, you know, write.

He said Einstein was full of wonder and confusion and uncertainty. And he just asked questions and imagined things.

“And that's how I want you all to learn to be. And I was just like, yes.”

That's good teacher. That's amazing teacher. And so then I went to graduate school and I went in the world of academia and I was like, there's all this pressure to, you know, you write your grant after you've done about three quarters of the work. So that as soon as you get the grant, then you can publish the papers that go with the grant.

So you're not really discovering anything or kind of talking about here's what I already know, but I'm acting like I haven't looked at it yet.

And there's pressure to follow, as you said, follow the line of thinking for both funding and for your career. And you know, I was told very nicely, if I wonderful people wanted to support me. That if I took the stuff about psychic stuff off my resume, I would have a perfectly good resume for academia. And I was like, I'm crazy. This is the stuff that's actually interesting. Why would I want to take it off? But that's what took me away from academia and maybe realize I had to put one foot in building things.

I could leave a foot in academia, but I had to I had to build it because academia is so slow. I can learn something and then 10 years later, they're like, do you think it's true? And then 20 years later, they're like, maybe we can make something with it. And it's like, but at the same time you have to be careful. You don't get to just say, well, I just know people are psychic and therefore, you know, that's great. So yeah, there's this dance, there's this dance there. But when you were saying this thing about people afraid to be foolish, I wonder how much it helps me to come from a family of very foolish, eccentric people.

Sure, it helps a lot because I'm not afraid to be foolish. In fact, I just know that I am. Why think intelligent kind people don't mind talking to people that say occasionally say foolish things. Well, or things that could be perceived as foolish, because they're willing to take chances and look at these obscure topics and strange phenomenon and just not not worry about the stigma that's attached to these subjects.

That keeps supposedly intelligent or serious people. People that want to be considered as serious people.

Yeah, yeah. From discussing. Well, like when you said the thing about big foot. Yeah. And I laughed a little bit.

That was like a reflex laugh from academia. So that's a fun one. Bigfoot's a fun one. It is. And I have friends who study bigfoot and other cryptids and in a scholarly way.

And I had to learn not to laugh. Like, it's like we have our little discomfort.

And then we laugh because I want to be taken seriously and stuff. But, you know, interestingly, the UFO whole world got accepted into the mainstream land of things that possibly exist before the psychic world. But the psychic world has been studied by the intelligence community, et cetera, since openly, since like the 50s. Whereas the UFO world was supposed to be, oh, we don't care about that. And then only recently has come to the fore.

So it's really interesting to see this balance. They're both related. And they're both have their own processes of disclosure. But it's just interesting. The culture, it's interesting to see this instinct to be right as you called it. And I feel like that's, I was, there's the PBS convention in town right now in the hotel for him staying.

“And I got to say, I think that's still largely very left leaning organization.”

And I was raised up in a really left leaning household. But the thing that really pisses me off about the left is this wanting to be smart. And proving that you're smart. And the thing that pisses me off about the right is wanting to be right. And I feel like both of those things fail.

Yes. I mean, neither of them allows us to just discover, okay, what's next. Like how can we actually, like we actually solve the problems that are going on. Instead of just wanting our team to win. Yeah. And so it's interesting to me how the cultural change with science also relates to our politics.

Yeah, I grew up in a very left leaning household as well. My parents are still very left.

“And I think that there is a real problem with ideologies where, especially in this country,”

we're so polarized, we have a right and a left. And I think most people are kind of in the middle somewhere. You know, and I'm certainly in the middle. I'm both like middle left. That's where I kind of see myself.

But if you like read about me, I'm like far right somehow or another, which is. I know, I'm, I'm now independent. I'm officially independent because I like screw it.

And I think we need to get clarity on that. You get to, you get to say something that's different from what either side is saying.

“Yeah, the problem with either side is you have to accept.”

If you're going to accept, if you're going to join one of their team, I had a bit about it. My last comedy special, that if you're going to join their team, you have to believe all the things. Right. And you'll have to kind of display them, perform it like you're performing. Very good point. Right. You have to have to say all the right words.

And if you say the wrong words, you're canceled. And that happens on both sides.

100% and you know, the right was always complaining about the left doing it, but now the right is doing it.

They're canceling each other about all kinds of stupid things. And it's just, it is, it's, you know, Mark and Dresen's talked about this. That they display all of the behavior that you get from cults. Yes. It's the same thing.

This communication, yeah, extreme following of doctrine with no deviation whatsoever. Everyone's very performative that they are more in line with the doctrine than you are. Ew. Yeah. By the way, academia is a lot like that.

Oh, it's very much like that. That's very disturbing. It is disturbing.

“These people were supposed to be open-minded because how are you going to get to true?”

I mean, the idea is to get to truth, right?

Are you going to get to truth if you've decided, well, that person's asking this question. And that's an inappropriate question. Yes. Yeah. And it's also, there's this thing about people being gatekeepers of information.

So like if you're an expert in a very particular subject and someone disagrees with that, people are like, I am a PhD in this subject. Let me tell you about this and I know what's going on. Like that. Yeah.

It's so irritating. And actually that bothers me when I go and shows a people say, oh, but you're a scientist. Study this and it's like, yeah, but could we not review me for that reason? Could we instead ask the question like, does she do good work? Does she have interesting thoughts?

Does this same reasonable? Does it seem like she's after the moving towards the good? Those are really the standards, regardless of your degree. And so it worries me that we put so much reverence in scientists or whatever experts. And I also see that there can be this problem where you go, oh, experts are all full of shit.

“And then you know, you have to get like brain surgery and you're like, I would like a really good neurosurgeon.”

So there's kind of a 100% there's both.

I think the problem is human ego.

And the problem is that even people that have like deeply studied subjects, the wanting the reverence and wanting people to defer to you, hopefully with no questions whatsoever, like as if you have the entire database on whatever this thing. This thing is settled. This is settled science.

We know everything about it. And that doesn't seem to be the case very often. There's very few things that seem to be completely settled. And it's much more interesting to me when I talk to someone that their perspective is, I'm a person that is spending an inordinate amount of time going over this stuff.

And this is what I know. I might not know all of it, but this is what we know and this is why we think this is what it is. And this is so instead of like having this ego and I see it, oh God, I see it from so many, it's a very male thing too. It's a very male ego thing to be like the dominant force of the narrative,

you know that they're the enforcer of the narrative and you know, very dismissive and very rude and saying, you know, just insulting things about anybody that deviates from it. Instead of just saying, this is why I think this is the case. And this is what we've learned over the years and this is.

But having humility when you're dealing with especially when you're dealing with something like anything involving consciousness, anything involving the human mind, it's so complex. There's so much going on and it's so biologically variable. There's so many different people that have different ways of thinking and their mind works differently.

One of the more illuminating things about doing this podcast is having so many different people in here. And so many different conversations. And so many unique and fascinating people, but they're all different. Yeah, you're like you're like tasting from all the different flavors of humanity. And it's a delight to listen to, but I sort of want to know what it's like to be in your brain

as you start to so it's like your sponge and you're soaking in all these points of view. So the model that you're building, I just wonder a lot about what it's like to be different people. And I imagine the model that you're building of the world is really well informed. Hey, Jamie, could you turn down my, oh, you could do it? Is this a little thing right there? We're like professionals.

But yeah, I think the model that you're building could be put to some really powerful use.

So I'm here to convince you to run for president. Oh, well, trying to get me killed Julia, how dare you? No, I'm not interested in any job in any government whatsoever. I'm doing this. Okay, I get it. But what you said about, it's a really male thing. I think it's better said to say, it's a really insecure male thing.

Or an insecurity thing that happens more probably to men because there's such a standard of your supposed to be alpha. Everyone's supposed to be alpha. Right. And for women, there's not that standard, you know? Right.

And so there's more insecurity because everyone can't be alpha. And what the heck is alpha? And so I feel like I have a desire for someone who has a sense of their own. Like a secure in their own masculinity and their own femininity, which I think you have both. I hope you don't mind me calling you out on that.

I know that you're like, I have this reputation of being like a total guy a guy. But you have this, I mean, because you're a deep listener, that's already a feminine trait. And so isn't really? Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I didn't know that. I never thought of listening as being masculine or feminine.

“Listening is a deeply feminine trait because you have to be relatively humble to want to listen.”

And the humility is a feminine trait? Yeah. No, it's just, I don't, I don't think of it as a feminine trait. Yeah, I don't think listening is a feminine trait. Yeah, maybe I'm wrong.

I think it's a kind. Women are generally better listeners. I mean, that's really? No, I don't think it depends on if you're in a relationship with them or not. I don't think you're talking to them. I don't know if that's true.

I don't know if that's true. Why don't you see where I'm going to get in there. I think curious people, genuinely curious people are better listeners. That's what I think. And I don't think women or men are genuinely more curious.

You're right. And I think that there's a thing, if you're always trying to prove that you're alpha.

And I think men more susceptible to that.

Yeah. Where you could not be a good listener because you want to make sure you say the right thing. That's an insecurity thing. And then I think there's more insecurity among men because of those standards that are ridiculous.

“And so maybe that's what I'm talking about.”

But you're definitely right. I can definitely think of men and women who are both crappy listeners and good listeners. So it's about the insecurity. It's about the emotional maturity.

I think it's also a learned thing that, you know, people have this desire to show everyone how intelligent they are and how dominant they are in any particular subject. And it's one of the most infuriating things about having conversations where people aren't really talking to you. They're just trying to win whatever little verbal game you're playing.

They're trying to one up you and they're trying to... I've seen that. Yeah. It's gross. It also just makes you want to leave.

Yeah, it's not fun. It's not a fun conversation. Yeah. You'd love talking to people way smarter than me. Yeah.

It's fun. Like, I can't be the smartest person. I'm friends with Elon. I'm definitely not the smartest person. I know that.

I'm friends with a lot of people that are fucking way smarter than me. So I'm just curious. And I think the world would be a lot better place if more people were curious. And if you embraced it and just squash that... That insecurity that makes you want to pop your chest up.

Yeah. So I don't think you could squash it. Like, I get... I also think the world would be better place if more people were curious. But I think the solution isn't...

I don't think any squashing anything works. Like, I think... I think you have to work through it. Hmm. That's a better way to say it.

Yeah. Then squashing it. So actually it just means it's going to come up later. It's like garbage. Yeah.

Yeah. No, you said it better. Yeah. It's really just addressing why you're insecure. And for a lot of men, there's... there's just physical insecurity.

Yeah. And the physical insecurities are real problem. But some of my favorite people are martial artists. And one of the reasons why is because they're the least insecure. Everyone's insecure in some way.

But martial artists are dealing with that insecurity literally on a daily basis. So like, say, "Jugitsu," for instance. If you're training "Jugitsu," if you go from white belt to black belt,

“you have to get humiliated thousands of times.”

You have to get... it's no... if fans are butts about it. If you're a white belt, you train with a black belt. You're going to get humiliated or dominated. You're going to lose. You have no chance.

And so by learning over and over and over again, that you're not really special. And it's really just about the time you put in and then by getting better. And having the ability to objectively assess your position. Who you are in this room of people that are trying to strangle each other.

And I think a lot of people don't ever address that. And so they run around trying to posture and pretend they're something they're not. Pretend they're smarter than they are. They're more of an expert, a subject. They're the one who should talk.

You should listen. You know, there's a lot of that. Whatever people say, just shut up and listen. Like, that's not... I'm not going to do that. And I don't want to talk to anybody.

Well, they don't want anybody to do that if I'm talking. Well, yeah, because then you're not having a conversation. That person doesn't exist. Exactly. You've just decided that person doesn't exist.

They don't matter. You've just asserted dominance in the dumbest way possible, which is intellectual. Like, yes. That is the dumbest way possible. Sure.

And the funny thing is culturally, we kind of think that it's the smartest way possible. But it's just a bunch of fools. Well, yeah, yeah. And so what? Fool's with a lot of information.

Okay. But let's talk about what a better world would be. So in a better world, in a better world, if you're going to start dominance, you would...

Like, the martial art, what I love about martial art is first of all, it's all mental.

Almost all mental. And then second, it's very similar to what happens when you go through and get your PhD. If you get beaten down and you realize you're not the smartest person in the room. And you're hanging out with all these other super smart people. And then you've got to learn to be like, okay, that's not what matters.

So that's the good part of going nuts with school. But there's this false information. It reminds me of when I was at UCSF and I went to see this talk by this famous scientist.

“I think I want to know about prize for you, doesn't he?”

But he was an asshole. And he gave his brilliant talk, but I couldn't pay attention to it because he was an asshole. He was being rude to people, who asked questions, he was... He's a dickish. I mean, I don't know how to say it.

Just like arrogant. Yeah. And I walked out. And someone said to me, one of my mentors said to me, you know, you have to learn to separate the personality from the information that they're giving.

And I said, you know, no, I don't. Like, he's giving me all the information that is personality. Right? Right? I don't need to learn to listen to that.

I need to learn to say, I'm like, all of you all. I need to learn to say, I'm not going to hang out with people. And put myself in the presence of people who are rude like that.

That's more important than their amazing intellect.

And somehow we got to a place culturally where we think you can be really mean or dismissive or rude and arrogant. And that's fine because you're winning. And I feel like a better world would acknowledge that.

“What's more important is love, which is this connection.”

Where you actually acknowledge there's someone else there. Even if you think they're an asshole. But still, you know, I wasn't practicing love. I wasn't accepting him who he was. But I wasn't a place where the environment wanted me to just ignore sort of the information

that was getting about who this guy was. And just say, no, all that matters is intelligence. Yeah. Sometimes you can learn a lot from people that are gross. Yeah.

And it's valuable to be able to put their personality aside and listen to the actual information. But still. In that moment, though, I wasn't. You don't want to. Yeah.

Well, in that moment, in that moment, I was like 24. And I was a woman in a field where there are a lot of guys. And I was feeling like I have to have boundaries. You know, I have to learn to have boundaries. And then later when I'm, you know, like now I'm postmenopausal.

And you know how postmenopausal women are. We have much more confidence. But we're not playing that game anymore. Yeah. No.

Right. Exactly. There's like now I'm like, I can listen to, you know, something that's whole listen to what they're saying.

“But at the time it's like, no, like, I have to stand up for something that I think is important.”

Right. You know, I'm not saying I'm better than I'm saying. I had that experience that made me see that there was this level of, like sort of import placed on the intellect.

And that had always been the case.

My family had always placed all this level of import on the intellect. And I just kind of walked out of that. Well, it has to be balanced. Like I think putting all of the emphasis on the intellect itself and ignoring the person. The personality is kind of like the message is important.

Like the message is important. But the message is important. But the messenger sucks that that, you know, if someone was yelling out the most amazing information in the world. But there were singing it like a slayer song. I don't know.

It's a bad example. But you know what I mean? You know those death metal bands where they just scream.

And you're like, oh, geez.

I got to get out of here. It's not my thing. Right.

“It could be like the most interesting information.”

But the messenger sucks. It's not fun to listen to. It's not exciting. Or the messenger's arrogant. Or the messenger's rude.

Or it ruins the message. Yeah, you did both. Human beings need to communicate. And in order to communicate, we need to, we need to establish that we're just two people.

You know, and if you have some information that I don't have, I want to hear it. I don't want to like, oh, she's saying too many smart things. I want to say something smart and show her I'm smarter than her. Well, hold on there.

You know, there's a lot of that. And that's a lot of that in academia because that is their entire identity. It's a chess game. Yes. But it's a chess game with pieces that are stunted.

They're not allowed to freely move. No kidding. Yeah, it is a cult. I mean, that's the cult's power. Yes.

That's where you live and people feel sorry for you. And you're like, I have my freedom. I'm so excited. And they're like, I'm so sorry for you. Yeah, it's social hierarchies.

It's gross. And, you know, I mean, I think that's going to exist whenever there's ego, whenever there's these, the human dynamics of these bizarre creatures that we are, where they were territorial apes with weapons. You know, they're like, we're weird.

And we're always establishing some kind of dominance,

whether it's intellectual dominance or wealth dominance or social hierarchy, dominance, like people love that stuff. They love it. Is it, do we, or so I? We love to play it.

Do we love to pretend? We love to pretend it, but do, I mean, do we really, well, that's why people name drop.

“That's why people want to have the, the fanciest cars and the nicest watches.”

I know, but is that really making them happy? No, it's not. So I don't know that people love it. I think people do it because they think it's going to make them happy. But I don't think they love it.

Yeah, there's something to that. There's, there's probably something that some sociopaths feel. If they show up with a million dollar watch and a million dollar car and they, you know, pull up in front of a giant house. It's bigger than anybody's like, wow.

Sure. I did it. But I think, yeah, what is this? But that's rare. I think that's rare.

Yeah. I think it's not lasting either. And then there's also a bunch of people that aren't fucking pills. They don't even know what they're like. It's just running around the fog of pharmaceutical class.

But that's the way they're dealing with it. So it's like, I guess if we see it as like, there's this big problem, which is that I call this the human problem. No one knows how to be with themselves or others

in any kind of harmony. Like, like, harmony. This is good work. We don't know how to get to harmony. Right.

And so one way is for drugs. One way is prayer. And one way is the big car and the dominance. And one way is, you know, being addicted to your phone. I mean, you know, none of them work.

Right. But all of, I mean, that's not true. But I think the only one that works is love,

“and I think that's what prayer is about.”

But earnest prayer. But we have to try. I mean, we're built to try to get to harmony apparently, because we keep trying. And so part of me wants to say,

I'm of two minds. Part of me just says, like, we're trying the best we can. And we have all these faults. And then there's a part of me that says, and we can do better.

Well, we definitely can. And I think that's one of the reasons why people hunger for conversations. Because we're all trying to figure out how to do better. Yeah. The human mind is one of the most extraordinary things is ever been studied. And yet there's no guidebook and how to use it.

Because we still don't know. Do you know how much we don't know? We know about as much about the human mind now as we knew in 1991,

when I first went to graduate school.

I mean, in neuroscience. I mean, the brain. We know a lot more about the brain. I don't know that much about it. We're still missing some basic pieces of things.

Like, what's the neural code? How do these neurons actually communicate? And how do we actually learn? How do we actually represent things in memory? But we know more.

But in terms of the mind. Wow. We're just beginning. I mean, I guess I'm differentiating the brain and the mind. Like the brain is this like physical chunk of stuff that's related to the mind.

But the mind is what we are doing. Right. But thinking, feeling, emoting, wondering all that stuff is mind stuff. And that's super mysterious. And super difficult to manage for almost everybody.

Yeah. And again, no guidebook. Yeah. You're giving the most complex instrument known to man, which is the human mind.

Yeah. And everybody's like, figure it out. And you're like, fuck, maybe I'll become a mooney. Maybe I'll go on a Scientology. What do I do?

I have to do something. Someone knows. I know. I'm the one who knows. Follow that guy.

You know? It's like, that's what we do. Do these 10 things and you'll be okay. Yes. That's what we call it.

I'll do those 10 things because we're so nervous. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Have you ever seen a baby be born? Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

So have I. My own. But also, I was a doula for a couple of friends who babies. And you know, everyone should just see a baby be born. It's very psychedelic.

It's psychedelic. Yeah. And it's also, it just, it puts you in that liminal space where, it's like you've seen me on the veil. You've seen the, the border land between life and death.

And it feels to me like that experience, which is much more rare for people to have now. Most people can kind of avoid seeing a baby being born. But that experience is, I'm also seeing someone die.

“That experience, I think helps train us in, it is the instruction book for the human mind.”

I don't know why I'm saying that. I look at you. You know, you're wrinkling your brow and I'm like, also, why am I saying that? No, I'm not only wrinkling my brow because I'm listening.

I never find a face of someone who's always upset, but it's not true.

No. I, I don't know why I said that. Like, I've never had that thought before. But I guess I was looking at this little, like, you've got this little, like, idol thing. Oh, that is, um, a death whistle.

That's an Aztec death whistle. Don't do it. You, last time we did the pandemic story. I've got really close enough. Okay.

Yeah. And with that, the virus thing going on. Don't blow it. Okay. Yeah.

It's, it is a meme online because my friend Brian Cowan was in the podcast studio. And he blew this Aztec death whistle. Like, literally, it was like a week before the fucking pandemic. It was way too close. It was way too close.

“And the meme was Brian Cowan kicking off the pandemic with the Aztec.”

Okay. Well, I didn't blow it. Yeah. I saved everybody. Do you know what Aztec death, death whistles are?

I imagine it's really scary. It sounds horrible. And they would play them at night while their enemy was, like, camped at night. And so they would haunt them so they couldn't sleep. They would stand on the mountain tops and make that noise.

Wow. And it's very high pitched and it carries like a crying baby. Well, no, it's very, it's like demons. It sounds like demons. Oh, my people.

Yeah. And you just think, this is the last day of my life.

Here's what it sounds like.

Aztecs will just blow while charging to battle and join human sacrifices. But how does a whistle make that horrible thing? When air is blown into the tube. The airflow splits into a big and small chain. Each making a different poison valve to hear.

Click here to see me try the world's loudest. Yes. Did that guy survive? I don't know. He might not even be real.

And this world that might be AI. Oh, that's true. So no wonder I was thinking about like the veil between life and death. Because I was looking at that thing. And there's something that is like a reset.

You know, when you see a baby be born or you see someone die. Hmm.

“It's like a, it's like you get to what matters.”

And it's, and it's not whatever the dominant thing. And it's not the insecurity thing. And it's not the, it's not any of that. Yeah. You know.

So I think that's the instruction book. And so we're sort of given these little Resets that allow us to get in touch with our really matters. But the more we get away from them, you know, the modern world. Maybe the fewer instructions we have.

I don't know.

Never had that thought before.

Yeah. I think it would benefit almost everyone to do something that takes you out of your own thoughts. And I think that physically difficult things are the very best at that. Like yoga is one of the very best things at that. Because it's very physically difficult to do.

It requires a lot of willpower and concentration while you're doing it. You're balancing yourself, you're sweating, you're straining. And because it's so difficult, you can't think of anything else other than it while you're doing it. And I think that cleans your mind out. And that it purges you of all this weirdness that's inside of you that is constantly battling with everything around you.

And it allows you to just be. Yeah. Just exist. Yoga, I mean childbirth is very physical dying is very physical. Yeah, but the thing is you can't voluntarily do that every day.

No, you can't. But I do sort of think like childbirth for women who who go through it or like enough to go through it. It is kind of like boot camp for men. I mean, it really, it really pushes you to your limit. And then puts you in an altered state.

And you're over sure, you're just had a human come out of your body. No, it's alive and you love it more than anything. Yeah, and that brings this like incredible. I'm looking for this yoga guy behind you. It brings this incredible self transcendent experience of like whoa.

Right.

Right.

And so yeah, same with people who play team sports, I was never one of them.

But I hear that that experience happens. Yes. Or like when you're practicing a musical instrument. I think anything difficult. When I was talking about martial arts, you could martial arts will help you in that regard.

“But I think kind of anything that's hard to do gets you out of your head and helps you.”

And just getting an understanding that whatever you're doing in life. If you concentrate on it and focus on it and you'll get better at it. And that gives you confidence and an understanding of kind of how the world works. And then you could also apply that to being a person. You're not the same person you were when you were 20 years old.

Right. Why? Because you're better at being a person. Because you've lived a lot. You've had a lot of experiences.

You've made a lot of mistakes. And you're constantly practicing and learning. And I think other things that you can do other than just being a person will enhance your ability to be a person. Yeah.

Being a person who is applying yourself to something.

Yes. My martial arts instructor had this thing that he told me when I was very young. He said that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential. Mm-hmm. And yeah.

Yeah. But I think that could be guitar playing. It could be tennis. I used to teach for my viewing. We used to call it a mental martial art.

It's anything that's hard. On which you have to concentrate. That puts you in that space of flow. And the flow means that you know that, the Holy Chicks and the Holy idea, I don't know if I pronounce this name right, but this idea of timelessness.

And you're just sort of having to serve whatever's happening. Mm-hmm. And that could happen. It could happen in any field. Right.

Whatever.

“When you have to apply your whole self to something.”

Then it's so ironic because you apply your whole self to something. And then what that allows to happen is that you become a selfless. Like you're almost like a tube. Right. You're not thinking about you anymore.

You're thinking about the thing. Yeah. And there's neuroscience to back that up, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I think anything difficult. I feel that when I practice archery. I feel that when I play pool. I feel that when I work out. I think difficult.

Where you lose yourself. But in doing that, you're like you can do better understanding of yourself, which is odd. Yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like you come into consciousness more.

Yeah. I'm really fascinated by the remote viewing. And I want to get to that. But I want to start with, like, how did you begin studying the stuff? So you're involved in neuroscience.

You're, you know, you're trying to pick which lane. You're going to really pursue all your interests in. How did you get involved in this idea of premonition and psychic ability? And that there's a real something there. Yeah.

I sort of hid it from my, I hid my agenda from myself. So I discovered, you know, later in life. Yeah. Because when I was a kid, my first precognitive dream that I remember was when I was seven. And it was very clear.

I dreamt that my friend, I knew, which friend he shamed, would, what would happen? She would lose her watch, where would happen on the playground. And then the next day that happened. That's very specific. You know, wasn't, like, you don't have to be metaphorical about it.

What does it mean? You shamed lost her watch on the playground the next day. Right. And so did you tell your parents? Yeah.

And they said, my mom, so my, so my, so my very eccentric family would always talk about dreams at the breakfast table.

My mom was a therapist and a learning disability specialist. My dad was a physicist, my sister's an artist. And we would all talk about dreams. And so I would, I'd mention this. And my dad, the physicist says, well, that's a coincidence.

“And my mom, the therapist says, you should get a dream journal and write them down.”

And so I did that. And you dad just dismissed it as a coincidence. You know, he, he has come around. That's a very specific coincidence. It's three, three factors.

And I always like to say, if you have two or more factors, it's, like, leprechaun. And just the one lost the watch. And then she lose her watch. But it didn't just get her watch. She was, we were seven years old.

She got a watch from her father. You know, I could, you could predict that of someone who's good at figuring out what kids do is that they might lose the watch. Right. So that could be a coincidence. You have to think about all the possible things that could happen to a seven year old in the watch that they just got.

Losing it is up there. Yeah. But you thought about it the day before she lost it. I dreamt it the day before she stood. Yeah.

Yeah. So he did dismiss it as a coincidence. But we also had ball lightning and, like, weird orbs in her house. And he also dismissed that as not actually having happened.

Yeah.

We were in this old farmhouse in Libertyville, Illinois, where I grew up.

And we lived with my grandparents there. And, um, and, uh, ball lightning came inside the house. And my mother stood up for it. My mother said, Ed, my, my dad's name.

“You know, didn't she see that lightning zipping around the house last night?”

Lightning. And my dad said, um, that couldn't have happened. Did he see it? Of course he saw it. But he just wanted it.

But he didn't have an explanation for it.

What did you do? He was a theoretical physicist. If her his dissertation, he was at University of Chicago. He, he discovered or, or showed somehow the electron layer on the moon. That there's this like atmosphere of electrons on the moon.

And, um, how can he say that that couldn't happen? So the point of the reasons, so people are so complex with the reasons they go into particular field. My experience with physicists, my dad included, is they tend to go into this field of physics because the whole job of physics is to simplify everything into a few equations. Right? Let's, like, there's the funny, there's them.

I don't know if it's funny. But there's the standard physics joke of like, alright, let's figure out the volume of a cow. You know, let's, let's just estimate it. It's a sphere. And so it's like, you cut off the legs and the, and the head and the tail, and all of a sudden you're just calculating a sphere, which doesn't give you the volume of the cow.

“And, so I think there's a desire to simplify everything, and I think there's a desire to control things.”

And many, many, many physicists have OCD, and I have control issues. My dad had severe severe OCD. And so in his, in his mind, it couldn't have happened because it would, all his circuits would fry, because he didn't know how to explain it. And my mother just stood up for it and said, well, it did happen, and you saw it, and I saw it.

And it hit the edge of my room, and then went out, and there was still, like, the brown mark where it was burned in the corner of the room. So, like, we had plenty of evidence. So, there was stuff going on, and there was this push poll with my mom who just believed in the primacy, I guess, or the importance of experience, like we saw it. And the poll from my dad who believed in, if you didn't understand, if you didn't have a theory for something, it couldn't exist. And so I was living in that.

So, what I did was I kept a dream journal, sort of the rest of my life, I still write every morning my dreams. And started to notice that I was really good at precognitive dreaming, and it would happen again and again, and I would have experience, we can get in to later that weird school stuff. But experience as a school that reminded me that I had this capacity. And then I hit it from myself when I realized I wanted to go to graduate school and actually be a scientist. So, by which I mean, I just sort of said, well, all of that stuff's crap, even though I still having those experiences, I had to kind of split off.

“This is a thing that you have to do if you think, okay, I have to ride the academic train, right?”

And the academic train says, like, I'm going to do hard science, I'm going to go to the best neuroscience school, I'm going to, you know. And then by the time I was in my late 20s, and I was in my second graduate school, getting my PhD at Northwestern, I started to remember, and the reason I started, and it's not like I had really forgotten, but it's like it just wasn't allowed to be real. I started to study timing in the auditory system, because I was into understanding how the auditory system managed things in time.

And then I started to ask myself, why am I so interested in time? Why am I so interested in the nature of time and how it works? And then boom, all right, because I keep having these precognitive dreams, there's obviously something we don't understand about how time works, because these are so consistent and clear. And at that point, you know, I knew that was happening, because I knew I wasn't making it up, I could look at my journal and I could see it. So that's when I started saying, all right, you know, I'm old enough to choose my own path, and I'm going to start asking these questions.

And when you started asking them and trying to apply it in using the scientific method, how did you first attempt to do that?

Well, I called, I was a, I'm kind of fearless when it comes to cold calling people, especially scientists, because very few people call scientists. So I called up Dean Raiden. I had read some of his work from the Institute of Nautic Sciences. I called him up and I said, hi, my name's Julia, and I was thinking of going into this field, and I think pre-cognition is real, and he's like, oh, okay. And I remember where I was sitting when I called him.

So I did, I finished my PhD while I was studying all this other stuff and understanding the field. And then as soon as I got into my postdoc here, as I found a sympathetic advisor at Northwestern in the cognitive neuroscience program.

“And just that I'm going to start studying this stuff. So I, at the same time, I had one foot in more mainstream stuff about timing and the auditory and the visual system.”

And then the other foot was in this purely, basically psychic stuff, trying to understand it. And I made an experiment.

There's a foundation called the Beall Foundation in Portugal, and I wrote an application to them, and they funded my postdoc. So I could study the sense of being stared at with like close circuit TV monitors. And I could study how those skin physiology, skin conductance or sweat changes when just before you get a response right on a random psychic task. And so that's kind of pre-conditioned or pre-sentiment. And then I just pulled from, I got really interested in pre-sentiment because I saw that it was real.

And I also saw there was a big gender difference that was fascinating to me, which is that before men got their first trial correct. And this is just a guessing game. So you know, it's randomly selected.

Their skin conductance would go crazy, like they just won the lottery.

And when they, before they didn't get it correct or they were incorrect, it would just kind of like peter along. So they were anticipating at a very high level what the future was going to bring, whether they were going to win or not. Whereas women practically, but not totally showed the opposite, but regardless of what happened, whether it was correct or incorrect. They were much lower than men. So men were really excited about the future correct thing, at least their physiology showed that. So I got fascinated by that and pulled together a bunch of, worked with a couple other people at different institutions and pulled together 26 studies over the past, or the prior, if I guess 40 years, that looked at this kind of physiological change that predicts, essentially a random future event.

And just analyzed it.

“Do you have a theory as to why men have that response and women don't?”

You know, I kind of think it's cultural. You were talking about the importance of winning. And I think, I mean, that we know that gambling addicts are twice as likely, maybe three times as likely to be men as women. Yeah, and the importance of winning, I don't know if it's biological or cultural, but in any case, the importance of being alpha or the importance of winning, I think it's a big deal. It's a big deal to the, to men. Do you think that goes back to tribal war?

I think it goes back to like chimpanzees. What's due tribal war? Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense that the importance in winning is literally survival or death. You look at kicked out of your little chimpanzee colony. Not only that, the ability to predict things that are going to happen would probably keep you alive. Yeah.

Like if you were running into an ambush, you know, like, I don't like this, or something is wrong, something's off, or now's the time to go, like I feel it. Yeah. Yeah. So those combined, but, you know, there's other tasks that aren't about winning that are just about is, you know, are you going to see a picture that's scary versus a picture that's neutral, where women have been both show the effect. But in this particular task, it was just, like, very clear, and then I replicated it in heart heartbeat.

So that first one was in skin conductance, and then I looked at heart rhythms.

And I replicated that same thing where men are like, oh, yeah, here we go. And women are like, no, no, no. It doesn't, something doesn't matter, so much to you in the future. I don't think it matters so much to you anticipating it. Now, here's the question about this stuff. Do you think that this is an emerging phenomenon in human consciousness, or do you think it's something that has atrophied that was available before language?

“Okay, that's what I think. I've been thinking that a lot lately. And one of the things that I've been thinking is, one of the things that we've noticed, like, I think phones in the internet and computers are an amazing thing.”

You can acquire so much information. You can learn about things. You can encounter new people. There's so much stuff that's great about the internet. Bad thing is, a lot of people have a much shorter attention span now, because of social media. And then now they're demonstrating that through use of large language models, a lot of people are actually getting dumber.

Well, it's, they've studied it. And they, especially children, they're actually less capable of solving problems themselves, because they always turn to a computer and have the computer solve a problem. The more I think about that, the more I look at that, I go, "Well, what is language language is a technology?" And language is a technology that allows you to say things with your mouth. And I know what you're thinking. Maybe before that existed, we had an understanding of what we were thinking. Maybe there's, like, some sort of a weird psychic connection that we all believe that people have with each other in some way or form. And some of it's, you could demonstrate, some of it.

But most of it is just intuition and feeling. And I always wonder, like, is this atrophy? Like, before we could talk, when we were just these bipedal hominids with, you know, larger brains and all the other mammals and these weird abilities to be curious and figure out things. And develop tools, like, what was, what was consciousness, like, before language, before written language? Did you have a word for dog and tree and, like, what was it that was going on in your head? If you don't, like, you think in your head, I think in my head, in a voice.

Yeah. You know, and they say some people don't have it for a voice. You don't have it for a voice? You don't have it for a voice? I have pictures.

“Ooh, that's interesting. Yeah. Really. Yeah. I sometimes wonder about that if that's why I can, I can do the room of you. Only pictures.”

Feelings? Oh, I have a whole dude in my brain. Yeah, I've heard that most people have that. No, I don't think it's most people. I think it's kind of, well, is it your voice? Like, Oh, it's not me. No. I mean, it might be your dad? No, no, no, no. Is it a guy? Yeah, it's like a general. Oh, it's like someone's going shut the fuck up. Like, go to work. Go do this. What are you talking about? Why being such a bitch?

So he said kind of a jerk. No, no, no, no, no. He's right. Always.

[laughter] My favorite voice is never wrong. My inner self-corrective voice is always correct. It's always right. It's always like, it's, uh, I mean, if you wanted to get really crazy, you would say it's like a guardian angel in your brain that's steering you in the right direction. But if I've done something wrong in my life, made a mistake in my life,

said something I shouldn't have said, "Davoys be rates me." Wow, so that seems hard. No, it's good. It's great. I mean, like, but you gotta get over it. Well, that's what you learn. Well, I mean, let's talk about that. Okay. Because when people go through hard things, one way to learn is like, be rating.

Uh-huh. Um, but that's kind of like not as sustainable as for giving yourself and deciding that you couldn't figure out how you can do better. I mean, it's be rating really the best.

“I think you have to feel pain from mistakes.”

But don't you already feel the pain? No, you gotta really feel it. Do you feel like I don't want making mistakes twice?

The best way to not make a mistake twice is to have the first one suck so bad that you never

want to go through that again. For sure. If it doesn't really suck, make it suck in your head. But does it already? I feel like I already sucks without a guy telling you that it sucks. Well, it's not, I mean, I'm kind of exaggerating. It's not just that. But it's like, it's not even like, you're, it's not pejoratives.

It's not, you know, insults your fucking loser. Like, you fucked up that you did this. You were supposed to do that. You were supposed to get something done. You didn't get it done. You were supposed to do this, but you fucked it up. Like, don't fuck it up again. This is what you did wrong.

Don't do that again. I get it. This is what you could have done right. It's like your conscience. It is like a conscience, but it's very strong.

It's very loud. Yeah. And I have to learn how to sometimes ignore it and just comp, otherwise it won't sleep. Right. It can be too harsh.

Yeah, but it doesn't, I don't hate myself or anything like that. It's not that. But it's just like, honest. Yeah. It's just an honest assessment of everything that I've ever done.

Ever. Yeah. That sounds, that's like instant karma. Yeah. In a way, yeah, but it works.

It works. And I think it makes me a better person. I'm better than I would have been if I didn't have that self-correcting mechanism. There's this poem by this mystic, and I forget her name. But at the end of it, she says.

At the end of the day, I always bring to my mind all the people that I was kind to.

And then I can fall asleep. And so if you know, that's another way to do it, right?

“If you know that at the end of the day, you have to look in the face.”

Yeah. Of all the people that you were kind to, so you can fall asleep, then that kind of makes your day. That, yeah. No, definitely.

Yeah. Because you feel better. Yeah.

You feel better about yourself.

You feel better about life. You feel better about everything. It's actually a good thing to do to be kind and generous. And that's like, counter, like you shouldn't think that way.

“No, you should just be kind and generous.”

But I agree. But also you benefit from it. And I think the more people understand that you benefit, the more people are likely to behave in that way. And it'd be better for everybody. So back to the language thing.

So this actually, to me, relates to the language thing. If you develop language, you are more aware of what you're thinking. In a certain sense, if you think linguistically. But you also, in a way, sort of dampen down as you say. And I agree with you that there's this, there's a trade-off there.

You dampen down the sort of instant knowledge of how people around you are feeling. Yeah.

I think that telepathy thing.

So I keep looking at this skull, right? And so what we know, I don't think, but I don't think we've lost it. So you had this idea that we've lost that psychic stuff. I think it's absolutely there. And I think it's neuro-scientificly defensible that it's there.

But that language actually suppresses it. Yeah, that's your piece of it. It doesn't atrophy it. It's like you can actually use, so okay. So there's this cool result from this guy in Baycrest as names Morris Freeman.

And he's a neurologist there up in Canada. And he noticed in his stroke patients that if they had lesions here, so there's stroke kind of messed up this area here, left frontal orbital area of the brain in the cortex, that they seem to be more psychic.

Like you didn't know how to explain it.

So he did an actual experiment where he tried to get people to move

with their minds and arrow on a computer screen. So there was no mouse, there was no way to move it. They just had to look at the arrow and say move to the left or move to the right

“and wish it to happen and using their intention, right?”

So the people who had the strokes there were able to do it statistically significantly. People who had the strokes over here were not able to do it. So can I pause you here? What was actually moving the cursor? So he had a random number generator hooked up to the drew.

So the cursor was kind of like shaking. And the random number generator would make it deviate to the left or to the right. So the person was effectively changing the random number generator. How often? Enough, so that I was statistically significant.

What is this? So what you would do is, sure, you would have a control. So you have the try period where you say to the person, try to move it to the left, try to move it to the right. And then you have the control period where you say,

you know, read a book, like you're not trying. And you compare the distance and the amount of time it's spent on the intended direction to the reading a book time. And if it's, you can, you know, there's statistical test you can use to determine whether it was spending time in the intended direction more often

when it was intended. But how much more often? A number that's statistically significant. So I guess, so it's like imagine. Five percent, ten percent.

Oh, I forget what the actual quantitative method. That would be interesting to know. I totally would. I just whether or not it would change with different humans. I agree.

But then he then he replicated it. Instead of looking at stroke patients, he looked at used trans-cranial magnetic stimulation, which turns down activity. So he put that over here. So he's putting that over the left area.

Mm-hmm. And to turn that down. And again, there were people, these are not people who've had strokes just regular people you and I. They were able to do this with their minds.

So it's just sitting there. What was his explanation is that the front. Left orbital frontal area is we know that it inhibits the right frontal area. And we know that the right orbital frontal inhibits the left. And his explanation is this stuff is going on in the right hemisphere.

Or at least is dominated by that. And when you suppress it, you're not as psychic. And when you release the suppression, you are more psychic. And it's just right under the surface. And so when I work with non-speaking autistic kids,

it feels to me like that's a pretty good explanation of what's going on. They're not activating this part as much. I'm not that I've proven this. This is a hypothesis. And it's not, I'm not the only one with hypothesis.

But they're not activating this part as much.

“We know that because this is where speech is over here, right?”

These areas in the left. And so therefore, this area can be a little bit more free. So this, like, stuff is coming out. Huh. Well, that's one of the weird things that they've demonstrated about certain psychedelics,

You would think that it just turns on your mind and all the synapses are firing.

No. Dampens. Yeah. Which is very weird. Yeah.

“Because it makes you think like, what are we doing with the mind?”

Yeah. The brain, I should say, not the mind. Well, and the brain is related to the mind. And ways we don't understand. And then it's sometimes not related to the mind, right? Like in the psilocybin results, you're having all these experiences.

But the brain is dampened. Yeah. What's going on? And there's the filter theory of consciousness says, well, consciousness is kind of like out there, almost like a radio signal.

And your brain's kind of filtering in. Yes. So that then you have this simple, like, oh, pick up the cup and say the words. And, you know, you can kind of live your life without realizing that person over there is having this experience and that's going on. And then in the future, this will happen.

So it makes sense to me that it's like our conscious minds in order to just deal with daily life, have to be kind of stupid. Hmm. And then. Because otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by all the data and possibilities.

It's so much in the universe. It's so much data. It's multicellular creatures all around you and subatomic particles. Well, yeah. And then, and that's, and when we're working with, I work with all team that works with,

not speaking autistic kids like until up to the tapes. And when we're working with them, like, they get distracted by that stuff. Like they'll say, you know, I'm distracted. They'll, when I say, say, I mean, they're, you know, typing at a letterboard or keyboard. You know, there's spirits in the room or, you know, I'm thinking about what you did earlier today

that I didn't know about, but I do know about, because I'm telepathic. And so it's like, a lot of information that makes it pretty hard to be in the here and now.

“Has, have any of those nonverbal autistic kids ever wrote something down with a couldn't possibly have known it?”

Yeah. Like what? Oh, I can give you many examples. In fact, um, do you want to, I have a video of that? Oh, sure.

Okay. I have to walk you through the video. Okay. Yeah. Do you have that over there?

I don't know. I gave you like 18 things. Oh, hi. You give me seconds. Okay.

So let me explain the context. Okay. So, um, I met my research team partially through people I had already worked with and partially folks who, uh, Kai Dickens creator of the telepathic tapes introduced me to. I had a run.

Yeah, I know. It was a great show. And so, I, I wanted to ask that question.

“Can we use rigorous methods to have folks write down non-speakers or spellers?”

Whatever we want to call them. I think non-speakers or spellers are preferred. Um, non-verbal kind of implies that they don't have language at all.

But the, the reality is they don't, they may speak, but they don't speak to communicate.

They use letterboards or, or keyboards. Um, I wanted to understand like, they're doing all these tests where they're repeating numbers and letters. And that's interesting. But it doesn't really to me, I mean, the whole world of testing people for psychic abilities. It's not very interesting.

And if we presume that these students are actually pretty smart, it's got to be boring for them. And so I thought, well, let's give them, then opportunity to really show their stuff. And so I set up this whole rigorous trial set. And even the non-speakers came up on board and actually told us what they would like to see. We want the stimuli be.

We want videos. We want music. We want words and the videos that are sung. I mean, they just told us all these things that they wanted. And by, by again, using the letterboards.

And we said, okay, we can do all that. But the, the catch is the person who's sending the information is going to be in another room, maybe like 30 yards away with a closed door. And you can work with your communication partner, but she is not going to know what the target is. And she's going to have no idea what the target could be.

Because she's never going to see any of the target videos that we'll use.

And so we were preparing for this. And we were getting our software ready. We were preparing for the formal trials that would be filmed for the documentary. And so we were doing that on Zoom. We weren't yet in person.

But the non-speaker that I'm about to tell you about was with his communication partner, Maria Welch, who's a speech and language pathologist. And he was, you know, getting ready to do the trial. We were explaining it to him. And I was in Virginia, Maria and the student were in, in Illinois.

And then Jeff Terrent, another co-investigator. Another neuroscientist was in Oregon. And so the person who was going to send the video. And then there was just intent to send the video like in the telepathy experiment. It was going to be Jeff.

The non-speaker chose Jeff. And then we did it.

We were on Zoom.

We turned off our cameras.

We turned off our microphones. Jeff sent the video.

“Maria and the student started, I don't know, intending to receive it.”

And then the student said he was ready. He spelled that he was ready. And then Maria asked the question that I thought I had put in the Zoom chat for her, because we didn't have our software set up. So I had to send her a question in the Zoom chat.

And the way we traditionally did it at that time was I asked multiple choice. Is it a, is it a this, this, or this? But the thing is by mistake, I sent that to Jeff because I had a private chat with him going. So I didn't realize that she didn't have the questions. Meanwhile, the student starts to spell on the letterboard.

He says I'm ready.

He says it's a beautiful sky.

And she had not seen the questions. It was a beautiful sky. Of all the videos in the world that he picked and described that way. It was a video of the tops of trees and then above them. Like northern lights that had been covered like by an artist to look even more cool.

And then there's like a time lapse. And he said it's it's art of a beautiful sky. And that was a really great description. And statistically there's almost no way to calculate how statistically likely that is because it could have been any video in the world. And we didn't even give him the multiple choice.

Yeah. So actually that's not the video I'm going to show you. I just realized that I wanted to answer the question more directly. The video I'm going to, I want to show you if you can find it is one of what we call a telepathy train. Where the students and this happen more than once when when we were physically in town in Chicago as a team.

Where the one student comes in and says something leaves and the next student comes in with their mom.

And they check in, you know Maria always asks them would you like to check in.

And then they refer to the thing the last student was talking about. And it happened to really compelling way in this video because there was also a discussion that the first student who comes in,

“which I believe I'm calling participant for just for anonymity.”

So participant for comes in and asks says he wants to go on a double date with participant five and it's girlfriend. And then and then he says tell his mom and then when participant five comes in. He says tell my mom I want to go to a double date with participant four and it's girlfriend. So they clearly had already discussed this telepathically because they're not speakers. They're not talking to each other, they're parents haven't talked to each other about this, the parents don't know each other.

And so. So that happened. And then they also passed on this. I mean, so just stuff kept happening. They also passed on this idea of slamming a beach ball on the ground.

In order to identify each of the videos because they wanted to get the telepathy signals right, but they were missing them on the formal trials. So they discussed between themselves apparently telepathically. If you slam a beach ball on the ground before we do the trial, then we'll focus on it in time. And we'll go to the right timeline to look at this is this is what they right down to to get to the video in our minds.

And so that's the video that I wanted to show you if it's here where because I don't include the double date stuff in it because it's too private and they say too many names of other. So this is here's a link, but there's no link that I can find less. Oh, you know what, if you go, go back to what you just saw. And then say I worked with my team to get out this response right away. It includes a link to this video as well.

Yeah. So that's the on the enable right. Then if you go down. I didn't see a video. Go up, go down, you're going too fast here.

- If I have a score of the top, then. - Yeah, so that's my mom and my other mom. All right, scroll all the way down. (humming) Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go,

Go to, go to, you got it, keep going, this is all about the science stuff. Okay, that's up right there, slow down, and then now go a little bit more down. Okay, go up, yeah. - Video the debrief? - You got it.

- All right, this is it? - Yeah. - Okay. - And that's Jeff and me on the right, and that's Maria. Someone else has questions to ask?

“- I was wondering if Ella's the best way to present the video”

so that the timing does have become a factor, like maybe he saw a video at a different time, but how could we make this one stand out? So, you know, that's the one we're talking about. - Yeah, great, that's kind of what I was gonna ask.

And so, he's typing something into a keyboard right now. - He's typing into the keyboard. - That's the letter.

“- It's got electronic voice, and the electronic voice is hard to hear.”

So, she'll repeat it, and then I also have a little slide that shows what I said. - What did the voice say? - SLAM. - SLAM.

- SLAM. - Hey. - Oh. - SLAM Abol. - This is where he's giving us this idea

to SLAM Abol on the ground, to get him to the right timeline and to lap with the trials.

If it's his idea, we never, never occurred to us.

- Before that. - That's before. - He picked up the F, and I don't know why. Before that. - Ready. - By the way, Maria has a big crush on you.

She knows you're married, but she told me not to tell you. - Toss it, thanks. - Okay, who's where, or which person would be helpful to do that for the video? - Okay, so this is the transcript of the SLAM Abol

“before sending, that's what he's saying.”

The tell you says, "Who should do that "before the video is sent?" And he says, "Sender, what kind of ball? "Slam a beach ball. "Why would you draw your, why would that draw

"your attention to this timeline?"

He says, "Because I could see and hear it "when looking in the future." Does it matter how many times she slams it? He says, "Before each video wants." - Yeah.

- So the slamming of the ball allowed him to look into the future is what he was saying. - He was hoping that would work, because he had just failed a telepathy trial and he said, "I was on a different timeline."

And we said, "So how can we get you on this timeline?" And he said, "He made up this idea of slamming a beach ball." And what we found fascinating about it was, that's an original idea that none of us thought about. But then we also found it fascinating

because of what you'll see next, which is the next person who comes in, who, of course, hadn't heard any of this. This is another participant participant five and the tellers.

- Participant four arrives out to participate in five leads. He has to go on a double date with participant five and his girlfriend, something participant five asked about participant four already. He also brings up something participant five mentioned

about how to make the telepathy work better. (woman speaking in foreign language) - What is that voice? - That's him, he's able to type. And do this sort of sing song talking at the same time.

(woman speaking in foreign language)

“- Now, did you see how Natalea just does that little shrug?”

- It would be good to try the beach ball sound. So now he didn't hear that other conversation at all. He wasn't in the room. - This was he. - So he was at home with his mom.

So he came in after we had a 20 minute break between that person. - So he wasn't anywhere near the building. No, there's no way he could have known. - That's why Natalea gave that shrug.

Like, see, she and Maria see this all the time. Where students will all be talking about the same thing. - So he just comes in. It says the beach ball slam would be a good idea. - Yeah, yeah.

- So he does it in that conversation. - Yeah, and this is, it is, it is like they are all in the same conversation. And it is so, it's hard to think about what it would be like but it's becoming more and more clear to me

that it would be very difficult to just be in this conversation where the words are coming out of our mouths. If you also are just having all these conversations with them.

I mean, it's like an incredible focus.

And so the work that he has to do to type and then he's also using his sing-song voice and he's clearly having some kind of conversation. And it's had, it's incredible focus that they're actually having to do.

And many of them have dyspraxias. So it's hard for them to control their bodies, which is part of the speech issue. And so, I just think they're all gifted. I mean, at this point.

- Well, there's that thing that they kept

talking about in the telepathy tapes where they all meet. - On the show. - Psychically on the hill, yeah. - Yeah.

Yeah, so I had that. - And they all talk about it independently. Like it's not something that has been talked to them. Like do you meet on the hill? Oh yeah, I do.

Now they've talked about it independently which is very weird. - Right. And one way so it-- - A lot. - Well, I turned on my scientist hat

when I think about that.

“And I think, okay, well, they could have heard it”

on the telepathy tapes and then they started talking about it. But that's not how it seemed to have worked. But I have my own experience of that particular student I forget where they were. I called him participant for participant five at the end.

He and I became, I had a good understanding of his mind. And we had some good conversations. And I had a dream one night where he came to me and all he did was show me this like it was like a, it was like a sun where you could see the sun spots.

And it was just slowly turning. And it was beautiful and he just gave it to me. And then the next day I was working with him over Zoom. And so I asked Maria, I said, can I ask him a question? You know, she said, sure.

And I said, you know, last night you gave me something. You gave me a shape. What was the shape? Because I didn't, I hadn't told Maria about the dream or anyone else.

It was just my dream that I wrote in my journal. And I was thinking he would say ball or sphere and that would either be a good guess or it would be telepathy.

“But he goes, I can't, I still can't get over this.”

I sent you a pre-revolutionary orb

with four stars on it, slowly rotating. What is a pre-revolutionary orb? I don't fucking know, but I don't know. I mean, four stars on it. With four stars, stars on it, slowly rotating.

But that's not exactly what you saw in the dream. Well, there were these sun spots. So see, there's a poetic license that they have. I would say that's 80% correct. So it was slowly rotating.

And there were these sun spots that I was calling, I was calling sun spots. He was calling stars. And it was definitely an orb. What does pre-revolutionary mean?

I don't know. Are they talk about-- and I talk about it in my book, The Love Revolution, this idea that we're moving towards the time when we can actually use love in our lives

to communicate and to connect people. But maybe that's what he means. And so that's one instance. So I sort of forgot, OK, that was interesting. And it kind of blew my mind that he used that language.

He's just gifted it, interesting language. And then this other non-speaker who worked with Natalia, who was the young woman you saw in the left who also works with a lot of spellers, just decided to start reading my mind, he started--

I asked Natalia, I said, can we just do an experiment? We're all be doing something. And I'll know what I'm doing at that time. And you just asked one of your students to read my mind. And then no one else will know what I'm doing.

And she won't know what I'm doing. And so what I was doing was doing this remote viewing for a friend. And so I knew exactly what I was doing during that time and what I was thinking.

“But what I was thinking about was, remember that comment--”

three-eye Atlas? So I was thinking, I was kind of obsessively thinking about three-eye Atlas, like, what is it? What's the deal? It was during that exact time in December last year.

And he comes back with some stuff I don't understand, like poetic license-- I call it poetic license or just it's wrong-- that I don't understand where it came from. And then he says, oh, and three-eye Atlas. And he talks about this owl that I saw in a video

when I was doing the remote viewing. And I was like-- so Natalia didn't even know it. Three-eye Atlas was, she had to look it up. And the parent didn't know what three-eye Atlas was. And he spelled it three-eye-eye Atlas, right?

So it was phonetic. Yeah. And then later, a couple weeks ago, I get a text from Natalia that the same student who apparently has now felt perfectly fine reading my mind.

Tapped into my mind when I was thinking about a medication that my step mom was taking. And he used her name, which Natalia didn't know. And told me that she would be OK on the medication that it would help her.

And then told Natalia to text me and so she did. The three-eye Atlas in writing it as E-Y-E is very strange. Well, and that's hard, because that's not how it's written anywhere. Yeah. Right. So the fact that he wrote it, "I-E-Y-E" means he was hearing you.

It's how it's how you would hear it. What the hell? Yeah. How weird. So there's no way I can explain.

Also, he came up with my son's name, which Natalia didn't know. So that could have been from her. But still, he read her mind.

Did you ask him more about this pre-revolutionary or with forced budget?

What does that mean? I wish I did.

One thing I know with this particular participant is that he's so gifted

and his family asks him a lot like about to do medium-ship stuff.

“Like, what does Grandpa think about this or whatever?”

And in fact-- Grandpa's dead. Yeah. Yeah. And to him, there's not a lot of difference.

And so-- Right. And so, yeah. And they also, like, the grandmother had a long transplant and they asked who the donor was, and he identified a probable donor

who lived in the area who I died that day. And they-- they won't know for a year as if it was the actual donor because it takes time to learn who the donor is. But they're pretty sure that it probably is. But so--

But if it turns out that he's right, and you can't find out for another year,

but they won't release the information, you know?

Yeah, my husband had a double interest. Like, it just takes a while. Everyone has to agree that they want to release the information. But in any case, he's just really good at this. He's very skilled.

And I didn't want him to feel like he was a show pony. And I wanted to get on with his lesson. And so I didn't want to ask other questions. I feel like, you know, he'll probably just show up in my dream and tell me at some point.

Yeah, but do you think that he even would think of himself as a show pony, wouldn't it just be communication? He doesn't. But I didn't also want to-- Like, I feel like--

I don't want to know. Why'd you give me a call? Of course, I wanted to know.

But also, it's a pre-revolutionary meeting.

I agree. I mean, he's the kid who-- I mean, there are some-- we work with six kids. They're all gifted and amazing.

But he's one that showed up until I put the tapes as, I don't know if you remember the story. It's so wonderful. His teacher said Maria what she does is they'll read a paragraph about a topic

and then he'll ask the students, like, OK, let's talk about the topic, just like in school, but he has to spell out his answers.

“And so I think the topic was like Gothic art.”

And so-- Excuse me, what would I have to drink water? So the topic of the paragraph was Gothic art. And she says, so what was the purpose of Gothic art? And he said, oh, it summarizes the masses.

And she says, I don't think that's a word. And then she thinks, well, I better look it up, because he says it's a word. And so she looked it up. And it was only a word that was used in the 1600s.

And so it means, like, it appeases them. So he wrote out a means that calmed them down. And she said, well, how do you know about the word? It was only in the 1600s. He said, or the 1400s or something.

And he writes out, oh, I was talking with a magistrate from that time period. [LAUGHS] So like, what do you do with that? What do you do with that?

Except for maybe state that there's something going on. We don't understand. And it deserves more study. And these students shouldn't be dismissed. Now, I don't know if you've announced this.

But is he communicating with people in a different timeline? Or is he communicating with disembodied souls that no longer live in that timeline, but still contain consciousness?

So my experience of him and several other people who are non-speakers is that there's really not a lot of distinct-- like, it's hard for them to know if someone's a live or dead, because they're not spending too much time in the physical-- they're not spending too much time.

We spend all this time in the physical.

“And that's what seems to be real and important to us.”

But to them, it's like, when I brought up that someone he mentioned, he said, oh, I was just talking to you. J.P. who was another non-speaker. And I said, oh, were you sad when J.P. died? And he said, oh, I didn't know he was dead.

Because you were just talking to him. Because you're just talking to him. And it does seem to be on this timeline because there's information that they say, well, again, this is their experience.

But their experience is that they get contemporary information. Like, J.P. saw his mother do this. And he's happy that she's doing that. And that happened two years after he died. Wow.

So J.P. was relying information about his mom two years after he died. He gets around. [LAUGHS] God, it's so weird.

Oh, and that was the student's, it's so hard not to say his name. But that was the student's story about it. But like, as we know from people who study mediumship,

and places like that, that study mediumship,

“there's this big argument about their experiences.”

They're talking to dead people. Are they actually just tapping into some kind of informational substrate that underlies everything? Or are those the same thing? Right.

Right. So we're trying to differentiate. So we could exist in this consciousness, in this form, in this reality. And we think that this is it.

This is it. It's locked down. This is the box. And it's not. It's apparently, it looks like it's not.

It seems like it's not to them. So then the question is, what is it about being non-speaking that allows them to have access to this? Is it, you know, is it like one of those things where people that can't see apparently

that can hear much better? Yeah. You hear about that? Yeah, I'm sure. Sure.

You know, there was this cool article recently came out in the New York Times about these singing mice. So cold spring harbor researchers are studying these mice that sing at a frequency that we can hear. Humans can hear all mice vocalize at ultrasonic frequencies.

But when they're close to each other. But when they're far away from each other, these singing mice will do this singing. And I guess they call it singing because it sounds like singing to us.

It's a really communication, of course. But they wait. They take turns, you know, all sing and the new sing. Just like you would in a conversation. And they looked at what the difference was between regular laboratory mice

who don't do this and these singing mice. Because they were thinking, these ones have speech. And these ones just do this other thing. And there was very little difference. They saw some more fibers.

But that's it. So when you say singing mice, what do they do? Like-- Oh, yeah, play this. Here we go.

All right, anything? Do you hear it? Yeah, you want to hear that chirping? You want to hear that chirping? Watch the audio wave here, and it'll pop up here.

Look at that spectrogram on the map.

It's like it starts to react to the four second mark.

That kind of barely hear that. I don't know how to turn that thing up. That's right. Oh, my thing's really low. Oh, yeah, now I hear it.

OK, that's it. OK, my volume's really low. That's right. So that's singing mice. They just make a little chirp chirp.

Yeah, and so the reason I'm bringing that up is because if we can understand what gives mice the capacity to have this kind of communication and other mice, the capacity that they don't have it, maybe we can understand non-speaking autism versus

sort of speaking autism or people who can are neurotypical. But it turns out that the difference just is in degree, in other words, just a few more fiber tracks. And so that's why it keeps saying, I don't

think it's about something that's atrophied. It's like a slight difference. So that was us to speak. Most people have that ability to speak. People who don't are, I think, very much like that,

you get to be in contact with this information that is generally sorted out if you're using language more effectively. I almost think that babies are probably telepathic.

“I think that I'm wondering if that's how we learn language.”

I keep thinking, we have so few exposures compared to an LLM. We have very few exposures of death whistle. Like how many times do you hear that before you have to learn it? If you're a baby, I have to know that when you say Apple,

you're talking about the thing in your hand, and not to eight thousand other things that are going on. And I don't hear it that many times before I get that. That's what an apple is. And so imagine if you could just go back and be a baby again

before you learned language, just to exist and understand what thinking is like, well, I think, and then you wouldn't be able to understand it, because everything would be like William James said like blooming, buzzing confusion.

Right, but it would probably, if you could just, I mean, if you could access that memory to a time where you didn't understand language, but could you even do that? I don't know.

The thing is like the problem is you already understand language.

So how would you even be able to access it? It's like those movie fantasies where you go back in time and you have all the wisdom you have now, but you get to experience being a kid again. Like that's the fantasy.

That would be amazing. That's a coward's dream. But isn't it nice sometimes to be a coward? No, that's a coward's dream. Because it's like knowing what's to make the mistakes

that they made a nice couple. If I could go back now, I'd be the king of the school. Like, you'd be a cheater. You'd be playing video games on God mode.

“I mean, that's how I made it through trauma as a kid.”

That's how I made it through abuse. I mean, like, that time travel therapy is a thing.

as an adult who knows better and as information, it really helps people. Interesting. Because you can love yourself from the future.

“I think you're talking about a different thing, right?”

You're talking about abuse and getting over abuse. What I'm talking about is just general sucking it life. Boy, if I could go back and do it again, I'd be so much better. Oh, I understand.

That's different. Now, this isn't going back and doing it again. This is almost like the opposite. This is like you're still there back experiencing it, making the bad choice or abuse or whatever it is.

But then your wiser self who's survived and gets that it was a bad choice or who gets that it was abusive. You go back and time mentally and you see yourself. So you're still there doing it,

but you're like a second character as introduced

in the timeline. You see yourself and you go, you know what? You're going to learn from this. Things are going to get better. You are loved.

It's going to be okay. And that works regardless of whether it's a bad choice or whether it's abuse. It's like you're doing the best you can, no matter what. Right.

That seems to make sense like you're a human being that understands language back then. If you go back to being a baby. Oh, yeah. Then you don't know language, but then people would be talking.

So what would you hear? What the sound?

“I think you'd feel things, tell them that you would probably”

feel their intention or feel where they're coming. Feel their vibes. It's like you know, like you know how babies that even dogs will like, someone will give off vibes and they'll just be like, you know, yeah, I think it's like that.

Yeah, dogs are really good at that. So dogs, not my dog. I have a golden retriever. Everybody's there. Everyone's off things.

Everybody's amazing. No, no, what are you going to have like a general and your brain, you have a golden retriever who will love you forever? Oh, he's the best. Everybody says best for it.

Like if he was in the room, he would just go from you, get pet by you, go over to Jamie, get pet by Jamie, come over to me. You would just make the rounds. You should bring him-- I do sometimes.

He's on the floor. He's the carpet. Let's see right there. That's Marshall. He's wonderful.

Golden retrievers are the best emotional support animals. Oh, they're so sweet. They just love people. Yeah, they love everybody. He-- he-- I have a little dog too, a little king Charles Cavalier,

Spaniel, and all he does is like attack Marshall, like bite his face, and Marshall's so tolerant. He just lays there. This dog's lickin' his ear, lickin' his eyeballs, lickin' his face, and his kissin' him and bite him.

And he's just never gets upset.

Never grouse. Never-- never says get off me. He just deals with it. I love that. Oh, he's the sweetest.

Yeah, I want a dog. They're the best. I know. I love them. I had a weird dream about my little dog. My little dog was so little that I could hold him in my hand.

He's not that little. He's pretty little. I was like that big. But he was so little that I could hold him in my hand, and he was running into traffic.

And so I had to run into traffic and risk dying to grab this dog and pick him up and hold on to him. And somehow, not get hit by a car. Oh, wow. It was very strange dream.

Was that recent? Yeah. But he didn't even look like him. He looked like a chihuahua. But I knew it was Charlie.

Oh, is that funny how in dreams? You just know it's someone even. It could be someone else. Yeah, I knew it was Charlie, but it didn't look like Charlie. Because he was so tiny.

He was like a mouse. Like literally, I was holding him in my hand like a little baby mouse. You know, that reminds me of that dream quality of someone being someone like having the essence of them,

but not looking like them. Reminds me also of something I've noticed in the non-speakers where they're not very good at labeling animals. Like, like, like, camels and kangaroos might be the same. You know, it's like, it's like the physical form is not what's important.

It's just not what's important, like that's feeling on the inside. It's to me, it's like proof of a soul or something.

“I really think we ought to start studying souls scientifically.”

Because if we can show that, and this is, I didn't think we're going to talk about this, but, oh, wow, I'm sure that happens a lot. But if we can start understanding what a soul is. Right, how would you quantify it? Yeah, I don't know.

Right, I mean, I think that's one of those things that you just can't, maybe. We can't study.

But if you'll understand, I guess I'm always coming back to the informational substrate

because that's like my favorite concept. But if you understand that underneath, if this is true, I sort of think this is true. That underneath all of what become physical reality. So space-time matter energy is this informational substrate that it's almost like,

has all the information from the beginning of the universe, the end of the universe, like all of it, including like what you're thinking, feeling, et cetera at this moment or other moments. And if you could, I guess, insert information into it and read information from it, then I think maybe that means you have a soul.

informational substrate.

So you change things in the world and reads things from it.

You perceive things in the world.

“And maybe if you can do both of those things, that's what a soul is.”

What makes you think that there's an informational substrate that contains all the information from the beginning of time to the end of time. Yes, I'm very good question. It's just a feeling I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I'm wrong either, but I'm not saying I'm right.

It's aesthetically pleasing to me to, okay. It does seem like people, whether they're non-speakers or people who are particularly gifted at remote viewing or whatever, can go to different times in space-time or different places in space different times in time and get information that seems like in this physical world you shouldn't be able to get, right?

I mean, that's what I've been studying and I've shown that that's the case at a rate

greater than chance, especially if people are in a place of self-transcendants or feeling love. And so that suggests that there's this sort of link about what we call God or love, or universal love, or this ineffable force, I don't know what to call it, universal love, what to call it.

It suggests that there's a link between what happens in the universe and what we experience and what we do and what we intend and this universal love force. So I want to, as a scientist, I'm like, how do you make a physics of love? So I want to think about it as something that I can think of as, but I can do physics or math on and that would, the way that comes out is like this informational soup or something

that has all that information there and that it is, we play with it throughout our lives. Well, but how would it have all the information from now to the end?

Because time doesn't work in this linear way that we're used to experiencing, right?

“Like that's what pre-cognition is showing us.”

If you can get information about future events that are right above chance and I can do that and other people can do that and actually most people can do that according to the statistics and they're just not conscious of it, if your physiology is changing, then that means that sort of information can leak backwards from the future. Right, but can it leak backwards an infinite amount of time?

Like could it link backwards all the way to the end of the universe where it dies of heat death? And so J.B. is bringing up this stuff. Oh, the Kasha Grecker's here, right? I was bringing that up. Yeah.

Modern esoteric term. The idea of a cosmic library that stores every event, thought, feeling, and intention that has ever occurred often said to be accessible through psychic or mystical means. That's that has ever occurred, but what about forever in time in the future, the potential future?

Yeah. And in Theosophy and Anthroposophy, was that word? Anthroposophy. What does that word? What does that mean?

Yeah, what does that mean? I don't know. I don't get what Anthroposophy. There's all these Anthroposists and they're related to the Waldorf people, but I don't totally understand it.

It's perplexity.

“Our AI sponsor trying to flex, that's what it's doing.”

It's flexing on us, showing us how smart it is. Their described as non-physical, compendium of all universal events, thoughts, words, emotions, and intense, spanning past, present, and potential future. So potential future meaning forever. So the idea that we're somehow another when these people are able to sense something that's

going to happen or know about an image that's going to be displayed that this small leap in the future of a few seconds or a minute or whatever it is, it's also accessible forever. It's like there's no distance. If you just think about time as a landscape, imagine time as a landscape. There's a mountain, there's a waterfall tree.

And we're used to just walking in a single file in one direction in the landscape. But if you fly a plane above, you could say, oh, I see on the other side of the mountain, there's this waterfall. And so flying the plane above is like doing any of these mystical practices, like with your cosmic rockers, or doing remote flying, or accessing that information, accessing

the landscape in a different way, not through this linear sort of physical dimension or reality or whatever it would call it. But through some other, maybe you go to a different dimension, I don't know how to think about it mathematically. Maybe it would be a different dimension.

The thing about memory and consciousness and just the idea of future and time at all, everything is made out of matter, right? We are made out of atoms.

No, but I'm going to get to that.

So the idea is that if we are made out of atoms, well, that means subatomic particles exist inside of us. Subatomic particles are made out of magic. Like what they do is they exist in superposition, they're moving, and they're still at the same time, they can be quantum-link connected to other particles that are nowhere near.

So why wouldn't we think consciousness that exists supposedly, at least, if not exists, is tuned in by our own minds, that somehow know that that's probably connected in some weird spooky action in a distance way? Well, it's not even weird, as you said, it's exactly what we're made of. So we call it weird, because we're trapped in this monkey mind, and we're trapped in

this linear, oh, it works like this, so the ball will always go in this direction.

We're trapped in that, but we are made of quantum particles, as you said, quantum wave particles, and even by the way, at the larger level than the subatomic particles, you have chemicals in our body that are actually in quantum coherence or superposition.

“And so, and in birds and in leaves, I mean, that's how photosynthesis works.”

So, don't get me started on quantum computing, because I get a little pissed off about this, because, okay, I know we were talking about consciousness. Shite? Yeah. Okay.

I'll just go on my little train. My heart is going wild. Is it? Yeah, because this is, I'm really, this is really something that is really important to me for some reason that I don't understand.

What quantum computing is? Our mistake, our current mistake with quantum computing, but what I believe to be the current mistake, is that misunderstanding. So, a leaf is using essentially quantum computing to do photosynthesis in a way that we can't replicate right now.

I mean, at room temperature, above room temperature, if it's out in the sun, right? It's keeping these chemicals in superposition. It is able to trap energy from photons better than anything that we have. It's doing quantum computing without a lot of expense.

So when we go and we decide that we want to be the first in quantum computing, and we're

going to invest all this money in like supercooling systems and very difficult to understand error correction methods and all these things, working on trapping single particles at the

“subatomic level, and that's how we're going to have to do it to force it into these patterns.”

Like, come on, we're doing something wrong. Like, a leaf can do it outside in the sun and it does it all the time. We're doing something wrong. So I started thinking that way 12 years ago and got really passionate about photons and how photons are kind of like this, almost like a link, which is another thing that I'm

going to say you're going to be like, "Why do you think this?" But regardless, it came into my mind that photons are kind of like a link between mind and matter. They're not really, like you said, they're made of magic. They're not really matter, they don't have any mass.

And they're actually, they're both sonic particles, so there's two types of particles. One is a fair myonic named after Enrico Fermi, and those are things we're used to, like, protons, neutrons, electrons, and then there's both sonic particles, which are things

“that generally, I think they none of them have any mass, and they're very different.”

Like, the Higgs boson is one, photons, as another example, photons are another example. I think there's a version of helium that's also bosonic. But what makes it bosonic is it can be in the same place at the same time, as another bosonic particle, and then another one, another one, another one, so like they kind of don't exist in physical reality.

It's like we have this idea that two electrons can't be in the same place in the same time, and they can't, but these can. And so it's almost like they're interacting in another dimension, that's less physical. And it seems just interesting to me that we think a lot about what a photon would feel, and I just keep thinking that there's some connection between what we call mind, and what

we call brain that has to do with photons. So anyway, I got obsessed with photons, and I started thinking about the double-slidic experiment. Did your audience know what that is?

Okay, yeah.

“So when I first told my husband about the double-slidic experiment, he's an artist.”

He's like, "Uh-uh, double-slidic."

I'm like, "That never occurred to me," because I'm like, "Oh, I'm ready to explain it

to him." He's like, "Couldn't get off that." But anyway, I was beautiful, but it's... Yeah. You said double-slidic.

No. Imagine there's like a flashlight at one end of a tube, and then there's like a photon detector at the other end of the tube. And in between the flashlight and the photon detector are two slits, and there could be a cardboard or a metal or whatever.

So there's two slits here, and they're very skinny, and the reason I say they're skinny is because they're so skinny that if you turn down the light enough, only one photon is going to get through, and it's going to have to choose between this slit or that slit. The weird thing is, if you do this over time, you'll see the pattern at the photon detector at the other end of the tube.

It'll look like an interference pattern. What does that mean? Oh, look at you. There it is. Yeah.

So the electron beam gun electrons goes through the double slit, and at the end of it, you get this very bizarre pattern. Yeah. And this pattern, and so I was talking about photons, but yeah, you can do it with electrons. You can do it with larger particles.

But that doesn't matter. But if you hear that one double slit up there, that's really good. That's a good one. Yes. So there's two pieces of it that are weird.

The first bullet up there that you can't see on the screen, but it's going to say that

when you send a single particle one at a time, it has to choose between the slits, but it seems to interfere with itself in space. It's like it goes through both slits. One particle goes in two places at once. It's called non-local in space.

It's non-local, in other words, it's not behaving like we're used to. It's not behaving like a billiard ball. It's one thing is going through two slits. So I kept looking at this and saying, well, it might be non-local in space, but if it could be non-local in time.

And by that I mean that if you put a electron or a photon in there, it could be interfering from the future, like with another electron or another photon that happens in the future. And there's actually an experiment you can do to test that, and I wanted to do the experiment.

“So first of all, did you understand what I just said?”

So the way you could test that is, look, if the photon-- if the photon-- I'm just upset, I'm going to pretend I'm a photon. I don't really like thinking of photons traveling because I don't think they really travel. But anyway, I'm going to pretend I'm a photon. I just got shot out of this flashlight or this light bulb.

I'm traveling towards this light. And I interfere with another photon that wasn't just shot out of the light bulb. So it's going to be shot out of the light bulb in the future, but it's just sort of hanging out there because it's floating around in time. Is it the actual light able to do one photon at a time?

Yeah, if you turn it down enough, it is. How could you measure whether it's one photon? You calculate-- you could just calculate the expected amount of light that should come through with the detector. And that accurate down to a single photon?

Yeah, you can calculate based on the speed of light and the emission and where the detector is. How much-- yeah, so you can turn it down to that level.

“And I think it's almost-- I think it's 100 years old.”

So they were able to do that way back then. So imagine this photon gets shot out of this flashlight. It interferes with another photon just like it from the future. Just imagine that's possible. If that's true, then in experiments where you have a lot of photons available to interact

from the future, like in other words, the light is on for a long time. The interference pattern should show a different sort of pattern than if you don't have very many photons in the future, so the light's not going to be on the long time. So the experiment I wanted to do in that I did was look, just randomly determine how long this experiment's going to last.

How long are you going to leave this light on into the future?

And then look at the very first period of time, like look at the first 30 seconds.

And after 30 seconds, you randomly choose, are you going to turn this light off or you're going to leave it on for another two minutes? In the first 30 seconds, can you determine what the choice is going to be based on the pattern? If you can, that means this thing is interfering in time. And it turns out you could, so I ended up replicating that and replicating that and replicating

And then a friend at UC Berkeley who teaches the advanced physics lab there said, "I want

to set up my own equipment. Do the exact same experiment. I'm going to run it over a year." And I'm going to see if I get the same result. So he sent me his data, he walked away, I analyzed the data, and I figured out the equation

that relates the amount of future time after the decision to the detection pattern before the decision.

“And so that's the kind of result that I think is going to actually shift quantum computing”

because you're working at room temperature with groups of photons rather than trying to trap them. And you're treating them more like a giant unit, this unit in time rather than this unit in space. And so actually, can I name drop my new company?

Yeah, what was the results of his data?

Oh, that the same result happened.

I mean. So it really was that somehow or another the photons were able to predict the future. Yeah. Well, if you think of a box, okay, so think of a really deep well. Let's think of a well with water in the bottom.

You cannot see, you can't look over the edge, it's so deep, you don't know how deep it is. So you might drop something in it, and then you listen for the thing, and you can have a sense of how deep it is. It's a little like this.

You can't know and sort of with our eyes how long that experiment's going to last. But you're getting a little reverberation from the future in the photons. It's like they're telling on themselves. Like we've got a lot of future photons to interfere with. So we're going to behave in this way, or we don't have so many future photons to interfere

with. We're going to behave in this other way. One of the things that people are very familiar about that know about the double-slip experiment is the idea of the observer and how the observer changes reality. Yeah.

What do you think is going on there? The word change is super telling, because when you think, when you're asking about timelines

“before, so can you pull up like a picture of timelines and a picture of retrocosality?”

Can you look at retrocosality and put up a picture or let us say something about the word change? Because we have this idea of it was supposed to be like this, whatever it is. It was supposed to be like that's kind of a complicated one, oh gosh, there's all these complicated ones, there's a look, that path diagram, boom, boom, boom, boom, no, why are they

also complicated? Let's do this. No. Well, what is it about them that's so complicated? Well, because people don't really know how it works, and so they make all these different

pictures of it. Okay. I'm just, let's ignore that. I'm just going to make a picture of it. Okay.

Imagine to figure it. So we normally think of things just going like this, figure it goes, oh, I go back. Like right. I get the information here, and I bring it back exactly.

“And so it's more like time is doing that, our events are doing that, right?”

So I guess what was your original question that I was, got obsessed with about pictures of it? Oh, timelines change. Observer. Yeah.

The thing about changing something is if it was all, if it was, I'd like to use the word influence.

Because if it was already always going to happen, you didn't change anything.

It's not like you're in a different timeline. It's that the future influenced the past. Right. But the observer influences reality in the results of the tests. So if I do an experiment.

Yeah. We explain that effect. And then so with the double slit experiment, the result is if you, that indicates this, if you put a little detector by one of the slits, because you say, I'm going to trap one of those.

I'm going to trap a photon or electron. I'm going to figure out which slit it's going through. So you put a detector at one of the two slits. If it, if you get a Bing, it means I went through that. If you don't get a Bing, I went through the other one, right?

What happens is the actual outcome now looks different. You don't get the same interference pattern. You get a single slit interference pattern. As if it wasn't non-local in space or time, it didn't interfere with itself, and it just kind of went through like a billiard ball.

And so that's where the observer effect comes in. There's this idea that you have observed. You've tried to trap the photon during its flight. So that's the other reason why I think that mind and photons are related is because there's something about the knowledge, I almost, again, think of it informationally.

our mind.

You've just gained knowledge, and it has now changed.

It's almost like the photons are part of mind, so of course mind is affecting mind. And so mind observing the photon changes the path of the photon. It changes mind. It changes the behavior of the photon. It changes what we see as a result.

It's like effects like, so a photons are like mind and mind interacts with mind. Now both minds are different. You have gained this knowledge. The photon has gone into this different place. It's the problem that it's so weird and so weird to think of that and observing something

changes it that it makes people start to consider, okay, if that's the case, how much

“of observing the known universe is a part of it existing?”

It all of it. It's like this figure eight. It's that's the thing is that that's just a great example that seems to me of mind observing mind.

Your mind and my mind will never be the same after observing each other, just like with every

other person we meet, we're constantly changing, we're constantly influencing, we're constantly influencing each other, and it is like this figure eight, they're carrying it back. So I don't think there's any difference. It's just that photons behave more like our minds, so they're showing it to us, but electrons and anything that's doing the quant up thing.

And so why do you think that we have a bad understanding of quantum computing? Oh, I mean, no, I should. This is how we started. Yeah, not that we have a bad understanding of quantum, we have great understanding of what we are currently considering quantum computing, or maybe there's just the way it's the

approach. It's the approach. It's the approach. It's this approach of we're going to trap a single particle, slash wave. We're going to trap a single photon.

We're going to trap a single ion. We're going to have it behave in ways repeatedly, according to these commands. These gates, that they, these gating functions that they do, I'm, we understand that.

The problem is it seems to me it's forcing something that shouldn't behave that way.

That doesn't naturally behave that way, to behave that way. It's like we're trying to imitate classical computers with quantum computers, and we're not taking into account these group classical level properties that clearly a leaf uses when it's doing photosynthesis, it has to. It's not building a supercooling system and, you know, trapping ions.

It's functioning in this really wet physiological environment, and it's doing just fine with quantum computation.

“So it's more like the approach needs to become more naturalistic, and I think it needs”

to take into account these non-local temporarily, non-local phenomena like that, like the one I discovered. I think considering that, at least partially, at least it's being discussed that there's many worlds interpretation of the results of quantum computing that something's happening that you can't account for in the known universe.

Something's happening with the scale of the equations that it's able to solve in the time span, in which table it's solved, it's not possible that the same sort of process is going on that would occur if it was happening right here and right now, that it seems that it's gathering the computing power. Yeah, that's great, that's the whole point of quantum computing is to capture that.

And yes, it could be multiple universes, it could also be retro causality, and people some people don't like the retro causality answer, I think that's actually more likely. And so the retro causality thing would be that all time is happening in this figure rate loop and then somehow another, this quantum computer is able to tap into that and have this infinite access to all potential future and past information.

Right. And then I just think it's easier to do quantum computing if you take into account. Excuse me, if you take into account, this retro, retro causality piece and these group properties of particles at room temperature that can tell us about the future.

“So the idea that this, does that include a many worlds interpretation of the universe?”

Does that, is that also there? And is it possible that not only do you get the time of all time available instantaneously that it, because it is a part of a loop and somehow another quantum computer is able to

universes, infinite in fact, that all of their time is also available.

You know, maybe the thing is, sorry, I'm just going to have to drink more water. No, that's okay.

“There's water there in the glass too, if you want to.”

Yeah. Want some fish coffee. I get so excited about this stuff. The thing is. The thing is, you don't need both.

And so it could be both, I was just thinking this morning about how it could be both. It could be both. You could have these loops with the information, retro causally bringing it back and you could have multiple universes of those loops. Infinite loops.

But it's kind of like saying, like, you know how physicists really like to be, to simplify things.

It's kind of like saying, we could do whatever we want.

I'm going to paint a picture of a fairy who also does something, you know, and then there's a gnome over here that does something. But if you don't need those things, you throw them out, right? And so it's like, usually either people talk about multiple universes or retro causality, but not both because they're solving the same problem.

But it is possible that even with our little monkey minds trying to understand retro causality that we're not taking into account the possibility that retro causality might exist in infinite timelines. Yep. Certainly, certainly the universe works in ways that we don't understand.

And the deeper we look, the more confused we get. Yeah. And also, you find yourself looking right into mind. I really do think there's something to the more you look into physics, the more you look into mind.

“I mean, all the physicists, did you ever read that book, how the hippie saved physics?”

No. Oh. Sweet. Yeah. Sweet.

Good book about the '70s and S1 in physicists.

Okay. Realizing like. That's the real hippies. That's for the asses. Yeah.

They're all tripping. And they had this experience of, like, if we really understood quantum mechanics, we just get it. That it's mind looking into mind. How do you think that aligns with this whole extraterrestrial thing?

You're pointing at my book? Yeah. Yeah. Just so this cover, my husband did the art. Have a nice disclosure?

Yeah. He's like a little quirky, like, alien face, engaging. It took him five minutes. I love it. Yeah.

So this book is not about aliens. And some people get disappointed. It has an alien on the cover because people think of disclosure with aliens right now. But it's really about what you know, what we find can find out by going into our interspace. What we can find out by tapping into our own wisdom and our own experience and not waiting

for some authority figure to say, "Hey, this is what's true and now we will reveal the great secret." Because honestly, when that happens, which could be literally tomorrow, with me today. Am I free today? With a release of the files?

No, they're going to tell. Oh, yeah. I think there's going to be a lot of redacted stuff in the flood the zone of the shit. But when that happens, it's not going to matter. Because when someone tells you something, and they say it's true, it doesn't matter until

you experience it, it doesn't matter until it matters to you. Right. And so it's a good point.

“And so I think that disclosure, if you want to have a nice disclosure, it's really about”

learning what matters to you and disclosing all your own weird shit to yourself, you know, all the weird thoughts like you're talking about that guy in your head, all those weird thoughts that we have and the weird experiences we've had in our lifetimes that we sort of vary, we say that like the thing about the ball lightning, I still forget that and I've talked about it several times, we sort of say, well, that's not normal, that's not usual

saw, maybe it didn't happen somehow, but it did, you know, or people who have experiencing UAP or UFOs or people who are cyanonic assets or people like me who have psychic experiences all the time, it's, it's, and how I suppressed it so that I could go and get my PhD and then it came up as a flower later, I think that the movement has to switch like we need a Copernican revolution where we're not looking for some authority figured to tell us what's

true. I would, I would agree with that, but I also think it really helps if someone who knows more than you, who's honest, can tell you what's true. What I was kind of getting into, I agree with that, what I was kind of getting into is this idea of retro causality, if all timeline exists in the future, these things that people

from ancient hominids, to current human beings, to what do you think we're going to look

like?

“Well, that's what, I think we're going to look like, very frail things that don't”

need muscles. They've had a very big heads. And kind of like we are. And communicate telepathically, it seems like, and then I mean gender, it seems like that's the direction that the human species is moving.

And so if you thought of this whole idea of time going in this figure eight loop, then you would consider, "Oh, is that us?" Yeah. Well, so that hypothesis is one of the many hypotheses, but I think that's a really good one, at least for the grace, at least for when people describe as the grace.

I think there are people who have described other kind of beings or creatures. And there's this guy Michael Masters who studies that. Yeah, I've had him on. Yeah, yeah. And so we, if someone, the thing is, okay, so what if someone says that's the truth?

It's still like, it's the same problem I have when I tell people like, look, all of us

could basically get information from the future.

And so can photons, like it doesn't matter until it matters.

“It doesn't matter until you make something.”

It doesn't matter until you make something, like you show that something works. That uses this principle, then people believe it. It's like general relativity, lots of people don't know what it is, but we have GPS. You know, so we kind of have to say that's real. But someone's saying something and making something with it are two different things.

And so I, I'm very impressed with what people like Anna Brady Estabas who used to be at the National Science Foundation is doing. She made this company call it, I guess I don't know much about money companies. It's like a fund, some kind of fund, investment fund called American Deep Tech. And she's like, I'm going to reverse engineer UFOs because that's making something from

these principles. Well, there's a lot of people that believe that's already being done. Oh, yeah.

But she wants to do it in the private sector outside of, you know, the big housing companies.

The attempting to reverse engineer, well, she's not, she's building a fund that's trying to invest in different companies that are using these kind of principles like alternative propulsion or, you know, informational time travel or these kind of principle space time metric. And so she's one of many people who recognize that we have to get

sort of out of the top five contracting companies who are holding all the knowledge about this stuff. We have to build things and just go forward. Hmm. I know.

What do you think? Well, I mean, if this retro causeality idea about aliens in the future does exist, one of the one of the weirdest things is the back-engineering part because part of the back-engineering,

“there's, if you, do you know Diana's, the puzzle case?”

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So her work is very interesting. You've got her on the show. Yes.

Very interesting. And I love her new book too. Yeah. Her books are great. One of the things that she talked about though was that the idea that these things

are donations. Yes. Yeah. Jacques Follei talks about this. Yeah.

Yeah. And sort of Gary Nolan. Yeah. So it's this weird, the people that have examined the physical characteristics of them, they're very strange.

Like when they've gotten these little bits of like weird metals that we don't have. Yeah. Atomically layered, you know, somehow or another printed and this, he's very strange alloys that would cross billions of dollars to make and they found this crash in 1976. Like it doesn't make any sense.

No, they seem like little, to me they seem like little acupuncture points, like in the history of humanity, like little, just little acupuncture like, oh, let's put a needle there. Maybe they could have an iPhone. Right.

And maybe they could figure out how to care cancer. You know, maybe they could figure out how to do faster than like travel. So it does feel like, yeah, a little acupuncture, and it can be done with, with artifacts, like people find. And I'm, you know, reading Diana, because I'm a book American Cosmic.

She talks about finding these artifacts and how she's like not even sure she believes in them. And I totally get it. I think I would feel the same way. But then there's this other side to it that's not artifactual.

It's about consciousness. It's about some kind of mystical awareness. You can also do active puncture that way, right? You can put into someone's mind. Like, I'm not sure how I had the idea as a cognitive neuroscientist to do this experiment

with photons. I think you can put into someone's mind information that will be helpful to the future.

That's the muse. Yeah. And the muse could come from the future, right? Yeah. That's Eric Wargo talks about that.

I thought about that with ideas that, almost like ideas are a life form. And this is the thought that I had. Like if you think about everything that exists today that human beings have created, all that stuff came from an idea. Like the idea then manifests itself in physical form and we want to take credit for it.

We want to say, oh, I made that, you know, steam engine. And you did. Right. But how the fuck did you do that? Like where did the idea come from?

Because ideas, anybody that's really honest about their ideas will tell you, like, why don't you know if that's my idea, just came out of the ether. Every great thought that I've ever had, every great joke that I've ever written, all that stuff just came out of space, came out of some weird place.

And I've always thought of that, like, what if ideas are a different type of life form?

And it's a life form that manifests itself through us in physical space. And that's Marshall McLuhan's thought in a book from 1960s. He said, human beings are the sex organs of the machine world. And that amazing. That's amazing.

And that amazing quote. I came into my head. So I love that idea. I always thought of sciences, like a living being, like it has its desire. And if you don't do the experiment, someone else is going to do it.

Right. And songwriters talk about that, too. If you like the song, someone else is going to write this out.

“And you know, the image I had in my head, because I think an image was of, do you remember”

those Plato heads that would have holes in him? And you would turn the crank and the Plato would come out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's okay.

My head, like, it's just coming out of whatever hole isn't blocked.

And it just has its own momentum. Yeah. And then, like, what if one of those little holes said, look, what I did? I grew this hair. And it's like, well, okay.

Yeah, right? I know. That's what it's like. I mean, most people that I've talked to that are singers, songwriters, authors, in particular, they'll tell you that these ideas just sort of come out of nowhere.

And you just got to be there to receive them. Yeah. Press field wrote a great book about a call the War of Art, Stephen Pressfield. No, I don't know. He wrote the legend of Bag of Bands, and he's a writer, and just a brilliant guy.

But his book, The War of Art, is really like a masterpiece, because I have a stack of them. And I give them to comedians, I just read this because it talks about the muse. And it talks about like, treating it as if it's like a real deity that you are summoning. And you do the work, you show up every day, you have this intention to do this. And if you do that, it will be real.

Yeah. And it is like these are things that come from somewhere else in your head.

“Especially in comedy, because you have to be in the moment.”

You're not think, I mean, even if you write your whole show ahead of time, right? Mike Brigley talks about this on working it out, right? Even if you write your whole show ahead of time, if you're not in the moment, the timing is going to be off. Don't know that it's not just the timing's off, the audience knows. Yeah, you could say things exactly correctly with the right timing.

Yep. But they're animals, they smell it. Yeah. If you think about your laundry or something else like, they know. Right.

Like, they know if you're really thinking about a thing. It's hypnosis. Yeah. Or it's like telepathy. They could, I, when I was this morning, I'm like, oh, God, I just have to take a nap

because I'm thinking too much about what I'm going to say on Joe Rogan's show, you know. And that's just the worst when you're thinking about what you're going to say. Yeah. Because then if you say it, everyone could just tell you. What are you thinking about?

It's like you're reading a line. Yeah. You got a result instead of thinking about the process. Yeah. Or you're just not in the process.

Right. Right. Yeah. Because we're sitting here talking about retrocosality and these figure eight things in the multiple worlds.

And then we're talking about how important it is to be in the now, which kind of doesn't exist physically. But it sure exists psychologically, like it's all that exists. And we're also talking before about ego. And I think that's a part of the problem with the way people can create or not create,

is that you've got to learn how to get out of your own way. And everybody talks about that.

Riders always talk about that.

“Like, you have to get just get out of your own way.”

Yeah. And that's really what's going on with this wrestling match with the mind. Yes. So like, we're trying to like just be clear with-- and I think that's where probably some of this non-verbal, these non-speaking people, that's where they have this advantage.

Yes. They're not-- they don't have the same perception of themselves the way we do I but. Um, not at all. Or so they're free in that regard that they don't have that monkey on their back.

So well, but then they have another monkey on their back, which is they live in this culture in which people think they're idiots. Because we read each other's bodies and we say there's something wrong with the way you're moving your body. You can't talk, you're making these sounds.

And so you're free in your mind, but you're not free in your body. And we're giving off negativity, what's wrong with this guy, and then they give it up.

And so when we were filming for Chi's documentary, we all got together with the sound

people and the camera people before our first non-speaker came in for their trial.

And we said when, you know, they're telepathic. So we're going to do a little prayer right now that we can all be in a proper positive state when they come in and our first student came in and said, it was really great walking through the hall and feeling that good. And not like we told him we did that, but it was just validation that that was there.

“And the getting out of your own way, like God, I think that's less of a problem for these”

students. Was that a part of the book? Well, the reason I'm looking, I guess that the book is that the first two chapters popped out of me. And I didn't know I was writing a book until I was on the second chapter.

I would think you're writing. I'm writing words on a page, but the weird story about a guy who hears the walls start talking and he's like, what's going on? And it's in the second person, like I'm saying you, this is happening to you and like, why am I?

I never written like that before.

And the second chapter I'm like, I think I'm writing a book and I don't know what this is about. And by the third chapter, I'm finally like, what the fuck, I mean, what is going on? And so it was a discovery, so the whole first half of the book is this discovery process of like, what am I trying to communicate?

And I had to get everything out of the way in terms of all, like the scholarly stuff, like, well, I better not say that. Nope, didn't get to, nope, just had to say the things that were coming up had to do it all.

“Just exactly as it was, like I was writing a song, you know?”

And then what it kind of did was work on me, like it had its own process, but I didn't think it was going to have. Like I thought it would work on other people, I don't know what I thought. I just had to write the words. And then I just, I guess, in the back of my mind, I'm like, it's going to make people feel

their own inner space in a way that's going to be unique to them. And then it turns out, I ended up feeling my own inner space in a way that was unique to me. And then I had to write about that. So I ended up talking about this, this gifted and talented program I was in.

And all the receipts I had from that, and with the heck was going on with that, it's funny to me how sometimes I'll swear, sometimes I'll say heck, but I don't know what I'm like why? Like sometimes I'll say what the fuck? And sometimes I'll be like, gosh darn it, don't know what the difference is.

Oh, I think about that all the time. Yeah, but anyway, it's a weird, weird book, but what it did was open up for a lot of people who were in these weird gifted and talented programs, opened up a lot of memories. I ended up starting as a part group for people who had these experiences and kind of don't know what to do with them and still feel the surveillance and the feeling of being studied

throughout your whole life. And not knowing if your gifts are your owner, if they were taught to you in some kind of way that you've forgotten. So anyway, I don't know why I brought that up. I guess about the getting out of your own way thing, I had to write all that down.

It's the best book I've ever written, I've written other books, they're good, but this one is everything I wanted to say, nothing I didn't want to say. And I got it all out there. And I have a security clearance that I was afraid that it would get taken away from me if I said all these things.

Because you talked about remote viewing? No, because I talked about the intelligence community potentially being involved in gifted programs. Yeah. Yeah, well of course there are.

I imagine they were trying to get talent in any way they can, especially if they actually invested time and energy and we know they have and remote viewing and things along those lines.

Yeah, but the problem is they were doing these, I mean, of course the entire time, I'm impressed

with and know many good people in the intelligence community. And at the time that they were doing these programs and giving students these weird drinks and doing some kind of mechanism to remove memory of certain things, they were not asking for parental consent. So yes, looking for talent, understood, yes, doing, trying to look for psychic, I mean,

the intelligence community has always been interested in psychic capacities. Not asking for parental consent. Bad. And so they were giving you guys drinks. Do you know what was in it?

No, I remember a pink drink that was chalky, it's the same kind of drink everyone talks about.

“And then what was the effect of that pink drink here?”

I don't know. So here's the, here's, there's two memory lapses that are very consistent. One was in seventh grade when I was explicitly told I was in a gifted program rather than my earlier years when I just kind of had these pullouts and things. So in seventh grade, I mean, what's called the SOAR program.

This was in like 881. This is before gate gifted and talented education, I think it's just a predecessor to gate. And I was pulled out every week, I think, about every week, to go see a counselor.

her, but I think it was both of them.

“And they would see me in the small rooms, but all I remember is walking, I remember walking”

down the hallway to the room, dreading that, opening the door, I know which door it was, I can picture it, shutting the door, there's stuff over the window. And then I've blackout like every time. And I don't mean like a 57 years old and I don't remember what happened in the seventh grade.

What I mean is when I would then leave, I remember going back to class and not remembering what happened in the room. So there's some kind of, and this is not, I mean, this is not different from what many other people will report and that program.

So I think some amnesic, either the drink was the amnesic or the drink is something else

and they did hypnosis to make us forget or whatever. The other time was when I was a doll, I was a dollish, I was 20, and I took some time off of college to go hang out in Palo Alto, because I had a boyfriend out there, I previously had a boyfriend out there and I was kind of into the Stanford world, I wasn't that Stanford, but I was just into hanging out there and I needed a job.

And so I, it was the time when word processing was like you could get paid to be a word processor, and I understood computers and I was like I'll be a word processor. So I either got, either saw an ad in the newspaper at Lockheed Martin or my dad told

“me, I know someone you should talk to a Lockheed Martin for a job.”

I ended up at Lockheed Martin for an interview in the morning. They hired me on the spot, then I remember sitting and talking to the guy during the interview. Just, I could see the parking lot behind him, I see the desk, behind me I'm vaguely sensing in memory, so I'm kind of weird equipment, but again, no memory of that. And then I remember the end of the day, when I'm typing on a computer, a hands are shaking

and I'm crying, and I don't remember what happened between the morning and the night in that moment, I don't remember. And I feel like I'm typing up a resignation letter, but in my memory it could have just been the thing I was typing up, like word processing, but I handed to the boss and I go, "I can't work here," and he said, "Oh, I thought you would have a great future at

Lockheed Martin. I'm like, "Why would you say that to a 20-year-old who you know is going back to college in like three months?" What a weird thing to say, to a word processor, who you just hired on that day. And then I left.

So I don't know what to say about those instances. My memory is usually pretty photographic, and my auditory memory is excellent. Did you think that the people at Lockheed Martin somehow or another had record of you being a part of this other program?

“I think it's one of the reasons why they hired you.”

I figure, are my dad knew that, and maybe the memory of him telling me was a real memory? I mean, so he was working for Department of Energy when I was a kid. And I recently had a support group meeting like two days ago with the folks who were in these programs, and someone asked the question, "Who here had parents who worked for either the public school system or federal government, and everyone raised their

hand. And then I said, "Who here didn't, like let's just make sure and no one didn't." And so... Wow. Yeah.

So federal government is mining people's children, as well as exceptional so that they can use them for whatever they're trying to accomplish. Well, are there contractors, and maybe it's like, let's see, it's me. I get burpy when I talk about stuff that's hard. Maybe, I wanted to work for the federal government, and I got a job offer and everything.

I went through their security clearance process, and the doge happened. But I was recruited four days after I filed a FOIA to try to get information about that program, and then a couple of days later, in a more burpy, a couple of days later, after

I passed the first interview, I got a note from the FOIA people saying, "Are you sure

you want us to continue this FOIA request? Four days later." I mean, that's fast for FOIA, like FOIA's not super rapid. And then I said, "No, I guess maybe not, because I was thinking maybe the people who have, we're going to hire me, maybe didn't want me to have an outstanding FOIA request."

So I said, "Maybe not." And then three minutes later, I got a call for the recruiter saying, "Okay, you've passed

Wow. Yeah.

“So I think that there's -- now, so I don't mean to sound.”

So the thing that I think was wrong, unethical, was not giving students things to ingest

and doing experiments that removed their memory without consent of parents and the students, right? And this is universal amongst all the other students. They all said that they lost memory. And not universal, nothings universal.

Some actually remember horrible abuse that I can't repeat here. But many of them don't have a knee-jick periods. And was the same with all of them, was it a similar result that they were trying to achieve? Was it some sort of exceptional powers that these children had or exceptional ability, exceptional cognitive ability?

What was it? It looks like they were looking for exceptional cognitive ability and leadership ability, creative ability, and psychic ability. But no, so that's -- so I mean, I just want to say, like, that's not nefarious to want those things.

But it is from children. Right. And so this is the thing. Okay. It's just taking children and making doing experiments on them.

It's like, you're fucking weird in the mouth. They're supposed to be playing with their friends and having fun and living a normal life. You've also hadn't changed all of that by introducing them to scientific experiments and making them drink fucking pepto-biz-mall or whatever they're giving you. Some have knee-jickness.

Whatever pink. Or some radioactive thing. I don't know. So I had this dream. I had this.

Well, so the reason I -- X-Men type shit. Sorry. Well, right. And so the reason I bring that up is I had this.

“So I know already that I'm gifted at dreaming telepathically and precognitively, right?”

And so I know that's true. And then I have this dream. After I moved to Washington, DC, and I'm starting to think about working for the federal government, I have this dream. I don't have a job yet or even a job offer.

But this car is following me and the dream. It's a red convertible. And there's a guy in the convertible and it has a little FBI badge on it on the car. And I'm like, why are you following me? If I just speed up and he keeps following me, he says, hey, we like how spunky you are, but

call the office. And I go, call the office, I don't have a job. And he goes, call the office. He's very adamant. And so I'm pissed.

And I crawl up on the hood of the car and I look at him as he's driving as one does in one stream. I'm very aggressive. And then I said, give me the phone number. So he gives me the phone number.

“And I immediately wake up, I write it down.”

It's the only time it's ever happened to me in a dream that a phone number actually corresponds to a phone number of government agencies. So I look it up, corresponds to a government agency that monitors radiation exposure.

And the first document I find online is this document about these tests of radiation exposure

in humans that started in the '70s. And they're like, look, we can't do these tests on animals. We have to do them on humans. They didn't say, let's give people radiation, or it didn't say, let's give people things that soak up radiation and help heal them.

It didn't say either of those things. It just said we have to do this on humans. It was from the nuclear defense agency. And so that made me start asking questions about whether this has to do with trying to understand the effect of radioactivity.

And so I looked into a bunch of history. And I found out that my mom grew up early poor, both her parents worked at a uranium mining facility in Denver. And of course her mother was a secretary, but her father was a minor. And he would come home with uranium dust on his boots.

So there's intergenerational exposure. So if you're a parent, if your mother, especially because you know, the eggs are, she was like seven or so, but the eggs are in your whole life as a woman. And so if they get mutated, I could see now, oh, I would potentially be studied in my sister. Oh, well.

So then I started looking at all these places where these programs developed the very

first SOAR program was in the 70s and started an AIC and South Carolina.

I found a bunch of newspaper articles about it. Before at the time stood for, get this, students on the active research. Like let's just call it what it is out loud publicly. Yeah. So by the time it got to me up in Illinois, it was called scholarly opportunities in the

academic realm. Active research is too creepy for people. Oh yeah, my baby. Yeah. But anyway, AIC and South Carolina is right next to the Savannah River nuclear facility

that processed plutonium. And so, and then there were a bunch of people who were in the SOAR program in Nevada, which

And then I talked to a friend who knows a bunch of special forces guys, but he grew up

in a place where they had these weird radioactivity, like actual containers, like in their school, like storage bins in their school, which is just weird. And he was in one of these programs and his friend was in one of these programs.

“And so I think there might be something related to that.”

And I don't know how all the stuff ties in, but the story I'm, again, this is just speculation and based on the receipts that I found and putting things together could all be wrong. And some of the, my good friends in the intelligence community think it's pretty nuts. But regardless, I would want to understand the effects of radiation on the human mind. Maybe it could make positive things happen like the actual level at low levels.

Right. Right. I mean, I'm, as a cognitive neuroscientist, I get it, but you just have to ask for consent. You have to go about the risks. You have to be clear about it.

And you don't, it's clear that there's a file that kind of follows you. Right.

When you're in these programs.

Well, it's also very clear that if you look at the history of MK Ultra, their whole Motivop upper end, I was just, do everything you want to do. Don't ask for permission. Well, yeah. To be able to operation midnight climax, all those crazy things that they were doing.

But they shut it down, they were doing it to a lot of intelligence community officers. They said, okay, don't do that anymore. So let's do it to prisoners, okay, don't do that anymore. Let's do it to children. Who's going to, who's going to, it's the seventies, who's going to say anything about foster

kids? Well, yeah. And people like me, whose families were breaking up and also, you know, you're in the public school and, you know, your parents are trying to hold their shit together. So they don't know what's going on.

So yeah, it's, um, it's unethical, probably illegal, I, I understand that it may be for good reasons. I mean, I think all those things are true. And I think it's interesting that if you talk to kids who went to the gifted programs in the DC area, in that same generation, they say none of this stuff happened to them.

And which is a red flag. It's like, you wouldn't want to do it to the executives are living in the DC area, right? The executives in the intelligence community, and in those, in those contractors. So you wouldn't want to do it to those kids because those are the kids of the executives. Oh.

I know. Yeah. I know.

But I mean, isn't that always the case, like that's also why those are the ones that

don't get drafted? Yeah. No. It's the privilege. Yeah.

It's creepy. Yeah, I know. I can go down a really bad rabbit hole.

“That's what made me want to, all this kind of difficulty in my early childhood brought”

some clarity. And also, I guess probably my second capabilities of my pre-cognitive abilities as an adult has brought some clarity around what really matters and what we can do to make the world a better place and how we can heal all that because every single person in that equation was doing the best they could, even if they were making shitty choices.

You know, like someone, I could imagine the counselor who knows what's going on, whatever they're doing to me in that room. I could imagine she, you know, felt like, OK, I have to do this for the country. The country. Find out.

Yeah. We need to do this for the country and we need to do this for humanity, you know. And so there's a lot of forgiveness. Like every once in a while, I'll just send love back in time. Well, that's a very balanced view.

Now I understand why what you were talking about, like your youthful experience that you would want to live it over again, so you could forgive people and get over the trauma of it. No, I understand. Yeah.

Yeah.

“Well, that's why I'm wearing this shirt because I started--”

I lied, love, labs. Yeah. I started that nonprofit in 2019 and what we do is we apply love weaving it through time and like technology and events and curriculates, so I would love to show off one of our coolest things.

Can you go to time machine.love? We built a time machine. Wow. So we actually use this with some native tribes and with some there it is. And to your time machine.

Yeah. So what is this? This is, it's like a journaling, an audio journaling app that essentially prompts you to give messages to yourself, and it says it's going into your time machine, and then later it comes out and you hear yourself, and it has a bit of--

In the future, it has a bizarre impact because what happens is we're not used to hearing-- we're used to getting little messages from ourselves, like, written. But not your actual self talking to yourself. Yeah. And it seems to be a real favorite of veterans and people who have experienced addiction

and this is-- these are the choices I'd like to make, and I'd like to love myself, and I'd like to feel love for other people.

“So we've used it at the Cook County Jail with a group of people there who really found”

it powerful, and with a couple of native tribes who would like to change it a little bit,

and make it fit their culture a little bit, but still it looks like unconditional love itself, like from the math, if you look at the statistics of the results of this experiment we did. It looks like unconditional love itself caused a huge shift, along with someone's time perspective, in which they started to include more, like, sort of love themselves over time more, like,

it's like a big bubble that extends over time. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.

It totally makes sense.

“And it's how I handled-- I sort of wanted to make that up because that's how I handled”

my childhood abuse. Was I--

I feel like we just scratched the surface.

We've already killed three hours, but I feel like you're-- It's been three hours. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you and I could do a bunch of these. So what's going on?

I would love that. That's definitely. Because I feel like we didn't even talk about remote viewing. Oh, let's just do a whole show on that, because I was a teacher of it, and then

I'm an experimenter, and then I have a team.

Next, we come in for sure. Okay. We'll do that. Yeah. Thank you very much.

This is a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. Joe, excellent. And the book is called "Hab a Nice Disclosure." Julia Mossbridge, PhD, right there.

Go get it. Did you do audio book? I did. Did you read it? I'm free copy.

It's me. Yes. I don't like audio books where it's not the person. I agree.

“It's like so stupid, and the publishing companies will tell you, "No, you have to”

have this actor do it." And I'm like, "No, because you can hear when you listen." Yeah. That's that person. Exactly.

Yeah. I agree. I'm glad you did it. Yeah. All right.

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