#2508 - Joe Eszterhas

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Join my day, Joe Rogan, podcast, my night. All day. [MUSIC PLAYING] OK, let's rock him. You need the headphones?

I'll never-- no? OK. If it's OK with you, I know I've seen it both ways. No, you don't have to wear them. OK.

You were telling me about your cane. That cane is amazing. It's amazing. It's carved by the doggon people who were in the morning. And it's a family that's been doing it for 100 years.

And many of them were killed in the Rwandan Wars. It is.

“It's heavy, it's beautifully done, I think.”

And it's been a close companion of mine for many years. It seems to be indestructible. It's pretty awesome, Morgan. It looks heavy. The doggon people have a very strange origin story.

It's a fascinating origin story that involves-- is it involves, like, here it is. I don't want to-- I didn't want to misspeak. So here it is. Centers on the Supreme Creator Amma and the cosmic journey

of the amphibious water spirits known as the Noma. So they have this crazy cosmic origin story-- that's a part of their mythology. Amma then attempted to procrate with the earth, but the pairing was flawed.

It's like a very strange descendant of the ark. According to the doggon traditions, the Noma descended to earth from the serious star system and a giant ark like vessel. The vessel contained the eight original human ancestors

along with the seeds and animals needed to populate the world. Those are the dogma. It's amazing. It's amazing.

You know the president is amazing.

The crazy story. My, I have a daughter who was a nature photographer. I mean, there's a lot of work in Africa. And she knows all about that stuff. So you were telling me, before we got rolling,

I said, save this for the air. Vladimir Zelinski and his wife have seen basic instinct how many times? 15, at least 15. There's a recent biography that said that

they began when they were recording, and that they had known each other before, and one day she saw him with his tape in his hand. She said, "What is in these basic instinct?" And they'd been there, you saw it together,

and it had such an effect on them, that they played it together many times, at least 15 times during their anniversary. Now, I'm not sure what that says. And I know that some people think the movies

had a kind of amateur effect on them, but the other thing that's interesting to me is, if you see it 15 times, does it really fucking up to the point where you go to war

“which would put in, I mean, is that to real get a why it happened?”

Well, it is the first Putin attack first.

Absolutely. And I like Zelinski very much as a figure, and I'm very sympathetic to the Ukrainians, because I've got it on Gary and background, in the 1956, the Russians,

devastated on Green and similar freedom plates. So maybe I'd gave him the balls and the wisdom to go after Putin. Maybe it's been a warning. Who knows, what have nothing to do with the war?

Why not? You made some crazy fucking movies, man. Really did. It's well been there, 18 of them that have been made, and they've been like 34th scripts.

They've been 16 that have been made, and I don't know, you know, I get around and I say there's a twisted little man inside me that lives in some spot that I'm not sure what exactly is, but he's 29, born 29. He will die 29, and with anything that has a relatively

strong sexual content, he wrote the fucking thing. I'm just an old guy giving him the space. So when the reason deal was made for a record amount of money, for a basic instinct, three, because there was a sequel to it that was a toilet piece

of shit and I had nothing to do with it. But this would be three, and my title for it is, his basic instinct is just about the twist of a little man

“to come put together the story that I think people have”

fun with, but it's continues in that same vein, and it seems to be a specialty. So let's see what happens. I like how you refer to yourself as like another person. Yeah, it is, it is, man.

There is, you know, there's a sandwich with little kids where they haven't had a companion and invisible companion. Right, and the twist of a little man is my main one. I have others, Mark Dwayne is one, and interestingly, Jesus of Nazareth is another,

The twist of a little man is a darker presence, than the others are, though, though, or Twayne is a cross between the two of them, and I absolutely love him. So when you were writing things like basic instinct,

“do you really feel like you were channeling like another person?”

Is that what it felt like? It felt, well, let me go back to the, the, I wrote it in 13 days. And then I felt like, you know, I feel like, you know, I just poured out of me. There is a background to it, and that is the, the cancer and tomato character, and then the Nick current character.

Many, many years before, in college, I had an affair with an 18-year-old kid, and I had a faculty member's wife. She was a very serious parent, and the, the way we, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, she was sophisticated.

It was a smart, beautiful, um, the sassy, um, and exactly the kind of woman that was always falling for.

And the, the, um, and she had a profound effect on me. Now at that the end of the, at the end of the year, she moved down, I discovered that there was a different student that she was with each, and that her husband looked the other way. Um, the whole machine.

39. And I, when I was 18, I was a very green 18, because I grew up in, at the kindergarten kid, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I, I, I fell in love easily. Um, but falling in love easily also meant a lot in terms of learning things, because I, I was an immigrant, and I really didn't know this country, and I was shy, um, and, and I learned a lot sometimes,

“I think, more from the, from the women that I was together with, the, the, the, the, the, the, the in college,”

and through the rest of my life, then, and I preferred the company of women always, um,

because they weren't, you know, armored often in, in nail macho. Um, but, but, but, anyway, she was stuck there in my memory, and then when I was a police reporter, um, almost, the, the decade and a half later, um, a decade later, that's a plan dealer. I had a buddy who was a cop that I liked very much, who had been involved in three or four shootings. Um, and when we got to know each other, and we spent time drinking together, and we did a lot of that.

I started wondering how, if he really liked the shootings. Was it an itchy trigger finger, or did he just get off on it? So somehow these two characters were in my head, and then then I thought about them a lot, but they didn't come together, and then I think, thanks to the twist of the little man, one day the two came together, and in, in a love story, and that was the rid that was the genesis of basically, um, and by the time I wrote it,

“I thought about it really being subconsciously and then directly for a long time.”

I would wake up in the middle of the night, and then John notes down, which happens to be sometimes when I'm very involved in a script. Um, and I wrote it in the white, um, I went off to white by myself. I like the sun beating me up by snorted some coke, um, the, uh, which there was just an habit in those days. Um, and after 13 days of, of all of that, and the other thing I did was listen to the stones all the time.

I love the stones, I love the bluish of the time I was an immigrant kid, and the stones just blew everything else out during that period of time for me. So I listened to that at the end of 13 days that I had this script. Um, then I went back home to Marin, um, typed it up, and it sent it almost sent it to my agent with the title Love Hurtz, and I was going out the door. The twist of the little man

had another thought, and I raised back inside and wrote it to his basic instinct. Send it to my agents, they auctioned it. Um, 10 days later, my main agent came back away and it became my big brother. And, uh, and, uh, one of the people I really loved in life. Everybody bid on it, um, the, it wound up selling for a record three million dollars.

Um, and then it became a towering it to this day at Trent. Um, the, uh, and, and, and it just now got, and the critics had the beginning where

the critical, the, the, the, the, the, my old, the critical, no actually,

the critics were really after the movie. And then through the years, um, the critics have had a change in mind. Isn't that funny? Yeah, it just, there's a woman named Camille Beckett was a main feminist critic. Um, who went up against the movie very strongly recently.

Not recently, but in the past five or ten years. As come around and said that the, that the movie is the example of it's a post-feminist classic. She says, and it's about women who don't, who don't have to hide their sexuality.

Why, that she made such a turnaround. Yeah. Yeah.

“I wonder, did you ever have a conversation with her?”

No, I, I've never met her.

She teaches. I'm somewhere on the East Coast, and then she has a towering reputation, but I never met her. I usually don't listen to critics through the 18 films. I, you know, I don't, I don't listen to critics. I work for the director Richard Mark Wanda who directed Jacket Edge.

And the arts, excuse me, and it's a fire. And we worked on another, another one together. And Richard has said to me that critics should be taking out into the backyard and shot. Okay. We're going to another director Mike Figgas. I don't know when I'd stand, we'd say the critics should be taking out

the backyard and head butt at the depth. I'd say that.

I was sympathetic to both of them to both things.

It's so wild that your views were formed, but this relationship that you have

“were your 18 with an older, horny, smart lady who's like, you know, kind of wild.”

Yes, and a cop who might have been a shady cop. Yes, and how the two came together, and then in this twisted thing called creativity, you know, and you make a lot of this mails from. Now, the other thing I'm sure was an influence is by the time. I did that, I'd been through four years of police speed experience covering cops.

Two in date, no, I own two in Cleveland. And then excuse me, and that consisted of at that point driving around in a company car that got the police radio and responding to whatever was going on on occasion. You got there before the cops got there.

And then the one that really just took in my head and then gotten inside

me was, was there was one when the report of a shooting. And the submarine and dating, and I got there. And there were no cops there that the front door was wide open. I walked in. I passed in the body of the guy who had shot in the self and blood

all over the wall. And then a woman was his wife that he's shot. And I heard someone in the back of the house screaming and crying. And then I walked, went back there. And the thing that was really got to me,

she was screaming and crying and I'm getting. And it was an old lady who was the mother's mom. And then, of course, I spoke flu and I'm getting a grew up on Gary. And there was something about to seem that that's with me to this day. The other police speed experience I had showed that was very moving

and I covered the McLentville urban uprising in Cleveland. It was a big one and they were at the 6 or 7 policemen. The shot and killed him. I was crouch behind a car and a street ducking down with the 10 feet front of me. It was a cup of bleeding, badly bleeding, morning.

And at the same time, there were gunshots coming from the Superman house. And I heard that the gunshots were coming from a group of so-called black nationalists. Led by a man, man, Fred Ahmed Evans. I knew both men. I'd gotten from the police speed, on the Bacop, was on Gary and his name was Elmer Joseph.

And he would come around to the little office in the police, but all the time. And the black man was named Fred Ahmed Evans. And he would come by. And as they shake, he sometimes had two in the morning, because I worked the overnight trip sometimes.

And we had the greatest talks. You know, drank a lot of beer, smoked a lot of dope. And he got to be pals. And he was leading the group of black nationalists. And he would be shooting these policemen.

And I was behind this car's wheels, a few feet away from the old shit. And I found the old thing. So frightening and so disturbing that I pissed my pants. The four years of police, they were other incidents I covered. The urban uprisings in Detroit to an Cleveland.

And one in Newark. He was very involved in the civil rights movement.

“And I mean, you know, that's what I did.”

I covered whatever was breaking in much of it. Was dark stuff. So by the time that woke up happened between Catherine. Catherine, Catherine Trimell and they occur. And it was a lot that went into it.

It's the same life experience to be able to see all those different crime scenes and the witness all that.

“And again, what happened was that I happened to pick a field.”

You know, what did they add to that? Journalism, I thought. And then they started on to it. Maybe they wanted to think so. We became friends.

We were both poor kids. And we both dreamed of being novelists. Notalists. Me, hundred Thompson. Yeah, hundred Thompson.

And the way that we chose to begin that was by doing journalism. Because no one made a living writing novels. And we both had to make a living. So, to be under the roadside up for the national inquire. And then we've done to rolling stone on all of that.

And I did it on a local level.

“And that put us into a culture that was exploding.”

The American society was exploding. The black situation. These are the white racism with horrendous. So, there was a dynamic in the country that we were on top of because of what we did. So, I saw a lot.

I saw a lot on the refugee camps. Because I was in, I began my 70 years in refugee camps in Austria. And then grew up in a dirt poor in an urban city. And I saw a lot of stuff there as well. That was dark and then moving and profoundly effective.

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And make sense why your stuff was so dark and wild. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. And I was a kid and Cleveland growing up. We lived in a very poor part of town near West Side. There was a boy next door.

And I slept in the couch in the living room. The sofa over looked at the bar.

And when the one night was looking out the window, because I always was the neon lights and Puerto Rican

Ocar is an all of that stuff that really interests it a little get. It's been most of his time playing with Mario Smart Twain set with his picker. And so this was all very exciting stuff. And the one day the watching one day saw this man on his stab another one to death and fold that and believe it out. How old were you?

12. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, there are reasons why the other thing with my scripts is almost everything in my scripts is somehow coming from some kind of personal die. You know, big shots, which was a little movie that was very popular with kids. Came from my son Steve's experience in Marin County with a black friend.

And now they try to make that venture pork. And that's what the movie is. It's a little movie. About two kids a white kid and a black kid. I'm trying to become friends.

The movie I did called checking out, which I have Daniels. And that was about in the life crisis in Sunday and now at the end of my early to mid 30s. I was scared shitless. I was going to die. You're I'm at fucking 81 talking about.

I didn't get 30 something. But so there was a comedic thing that came out of that.

Basically came out of where we're did.

But there was almost with everyone. And there was some kind of betrayed.

“It came out of a lot of the notion that at that particular point if you remember.”

There was all this right wing craziness where there were militias that were shooting people.

What was this? It betrayed.

Which which came out in the 1980s.

“There was several incidents in Oregon and then northwest parts of the country.”

Which got a lot of publicity. It was before a dimitemic way. But I'll roughly in that same period. So I decided under a false name to go to one of these jamborees and see what the hell is going on. And then essentially my journalism experience I went into it.

And then out of it I could collect a distro mess between Deborah Winger and Tom there. And so but they bailed some kind of a tie. Telling lies in America which is one of my favorite little movies. With Kevin Bacon and Brad Renfrow. It's some way out about a autobiographical.

In terms of the years she was I had as a high school kid. And with bullying and all of those kinds of things.

And becoming an American citizen.

And they were shot. And incidentally right where I grew up in front of the apartment hours where we lived. And I remember hearing a TV reporter in Cleveland interview. And old man was watching the shooting and saying, "Did you know a Joe when he grew up here?"

And he said, "Yeah, that was a bartender there." And he said, "It's shit." Joe is just a fucking refugee trying to make his way in the world. He nailed it. He nailed it. I mean that's really what not a complicated thing. But that's really what happened.

“The only thing the only thing I say has been said about me through the years.”

But the only other thing that I really treasure in the life of the love is I covered. I interviewed over the setting. Before he was killed in the plane crashing, Cleveland. And we started we began speaking around midnight after a show at a place called Leo's because you don't. And we began talking around midnight and talked till 3.30 in the morning.

And we did a lot of beer, we did a lot of gymbeam.

We spoke a lot of really powerful ties and had a great time.

And at the end of it, when he had it, he had to go go. He said, "Give me a fucking hug and I gave a hug." And he said, "You know what you want?" He said, "You're a fucking white nigger." That's what you are. And I love that.

It stayed with me all this time. The only time that he's a force of nature, people's head, his Shakespeare were alive today, was named Joe S. Rock's book, all that as bullshit. What all this said, and what the old man said, I thought was really great.

“Well, here enough, all this writing was such a legend.”

He died so young, too. He died. He was reeling you. I was in a 30 someplace. Listen to this, the interviewer in the went on, the next day at the plain dealer, there was Sunday, and I was working.

I'm literally good day after the interview. And I'm sitting there, and it's all like sitting around. And the, I see a city editor that the social press wire machines start dinging. And in those days, if it had more than like four or five days, there was some bad thing that happened.

So I saw a city editor come from the city desk to this dinghy machine. And he's staring at it, the fucking thing is still dinghy. He's staring at it, and then he looks at me like that in the city room. And then he looks away. So I saw that, and then I got up and went to the dinghy machine.

And the audience, his plane had net crashed. The way it's another gig. And I was probably the last man who really spoke to him at length. The, I left the office right there. And he said, "Fuck it for the rest of the day.

There was a bar across the street. You drink myself silly and went home with the waitress." And you need it. You know, it's horrible. But I saw a lot to get back to your points.

I went to it in a different way. And suddenly I tried to write a movie about all this, called "Lays of Glory." And we put it together. And then in John Appetra was going to direct it. And there was an answer to Cuba Gooding.

It was going to play autism. And the whole thing fell apart at the last minute for financing reasons into this day. It's never gotten late. But I'm a writer.

What else can I do with someone that I loved, that I made, I just had to write about them in that way. Right? So anybody who writes interesting things the way you do, has to have had some interesting life experiences.

You don't get those kind of scripts that you wrote from a sterile environment.

I agree with that. Yeah.

Sometimes, not that they need to be.

I may have turned my, my conversion to Christians, the Christianity, later in my life. I wrote three Christian scripts. And none of them were made. And one of them wasn't made because

one of the priests involved would potentially get in Christian financing. I said, "We need more incense." And my response to somebody you interviewed me about was, "I don't like fucking incense.

I write flashing blood." And I said, "I don't know when it was made." What do you mean by you need more incense? Well, to make and more, him like to make the make and give it a sense of piety. To make it inspire the people so that they become,

be Catholic in this specific case, and that it was through a secular. And I think what happened to me with all three is that I fell

between views and between so-called Christian films

and secular films.

“And so, that's why we never got to finance our all three of them.”

We say, "Felm between Christian films and secular films." You mean, in the way you were writing it, you weren't writing it specifically as a Christian film, or specifically as a secular film. The way I was writing it naturally, did you write it with that?

Like you wrote everything else. Yeah, with that political considerations, there were certain political considerations. I was just writing it for my heart. And that was to gritty to get Christian kind of financing

and on the other hand, to religious, to get this secular finding. That's too bad, because that bridge is probably what would bring more people to Christianity. I relate to it. I agree with you absolutely, and my argument was,

these could be hit movies. Because in my movies, in a lot of cases, there'd been these could be hit movies. And that's more important than spiking people with incense.

It's interesting how Hollywood is always rejected

those kind of religion films, religious films, like the passion of the Christ. No instance. That was a huge movie. I was not just a huge movie, but in my mind,

it was like a prayer. You know, I watched it eat a good Friday. And it was a huge movie beautifully done. And it wasn't officially endorsed by the Catholic Church, although I saw

and I saw in Cleveland a meeting where a priest organized a preview screening of the movie. And they had like 700 people before, watch a get.

There was such an interest in it.

“But part of it, part of the reason I think,”

you raise a good point, because I think part of the reason they was such a towering yet, was that it was real. It wasn't. It wasn't, in sense, filled.

It was real. There was a big, you had a figure who bled and you really show what happened upon that cross and how awful. Yeah.

And kind of pain is, and how many movies really reflected that? No, it was horrific. And there was also that William DeFoe film. What was that one called?

The Licentation of Cross. That's right. That's quite a crazy thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree with that. I know where I love William DeFoe. I mean, one of my favorite actress. And I liked it.

And it's also very real. That historically real. Yeah. You know, the notion that Jesus of Nazareth,

you know, was his Fred Rogers figure. He was in a really real man.

“Whereas the Bible says he was a true man.”

And true God. The bad shows, the really show it is. That film really showed it is human side. Yeah. And in my conception of Jesus,

who I revered, and who was one of my close friends that I speak to on most days. He is that he was true man and true God. He was a Jewish zealots of freedom fighter

against the Roman Empire. He was crucified by the Romans. The, as a freedom fighter, he hung around. Blue caler guys.

And, and, and fishermen. And rockers and tax collectors who were the lowest of the low back then. As they should be now. But they were the lowest of the low back then.

And those were the people that he'd read primarily, but he'd run with. That's, that's Jesus of Nazareth. And, and that that side is completely ignored.

It's basically better like that. You're the last statistic of the crisis. I don't remember.

“I remember there was some controversy around it,”

but I don't, I was too young to really be paying attention to like how it was. It was the very fact that Jesus had a relationship that was clearly indicated as being sexual with Mary Magdalene who was depicted as a prostitute.

Now, the truth is historical truth.

Is a Mary Magdalene. It was a few years older than Jesus. And a woman of means who had advised, it advised the Roman builders in a city called Seraphim.

And then was one of the people who financed Jesus as he swept through Galilee in the rest of your day. There's another scene in the Bible where an unnamed woman goes to Jesus. And, and, and, and, and, be, watches his feet.

And then watches his feet with his hair. Right? This unnamed woman, by a pope in the six-century Gregory the Great, was depicted in Mary Magdalene.

In a connection in Mary Magdalene. There's no, no, nothing that says in Mary Magdalene was a whole curve in a kind. And then there's no proof for that in any way. So the fact that the last sensation of Christ

did that.

And then, and then, and brought the two of them together

in a sort of semi love story, which, without, of course, any real sexuality to it on film is why it was so criticized. It's, of course, as he does,

“was depicted, and I think the studio at that point”

was run by Lou Wasserman, whom I knew from Cleveland because he was in. He was a, uh, he ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went.

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He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went.

He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went.

He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went.

He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went.

He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went. He ran a race a while ago before he went.

He had some of the most profound and insanely resonating teachings. Like even today. The words that he spoke 2,000 years ago. They're still today. They resonate with people.

If you live your life by the teachings of Jesus Christ, you will be a better person. It's a great framework to live your life.

It's incredible when you think about a person that lived so long ago.

He is a much better person to pick as your imagined companion than Mark Twain. You're a magical companion. Let me ask you this because I have a long conversation with Mel Gibson about this. What do you think about the shroud of Turin?

“Well, I think it was a study done, a major study that was done by the Catholic Church that went by the John Paul II.”

I really admired the read a lot about through the years. This is a scientific study that discovered that the shroud of Turin came from 1313 or 1320. Now, this is the huge controversy about it. And there are those people who feel that that absolutely is Christ. And I must say that when I look at it, when I look at that figure,

and I've done that a lot. And in my house, we have several blow-ups of Turin's Christ. It's very, very moving. But the evidence, what there is, seems to indicate that it comes from the 1300s. Yeah, I've seen that as well.

But then I've also seen people that say that evidence, there's some controversy about that evidence. And that's some of the cloth. They believe dates to far earlier. And it's the type of cloth in the way it's made. It seems to indicate that it's far older.

But don't know how much of the cloth they've carbon tested. You know, that is also an issue. And whether or not it had been repaired or whether or not there'd been additional pieces. I don't either.

But you know, when ultimately, when I look at that, when I look at bad Jesus,

and then I've done that quite a bit, that face really moves me. So in a sense, I don't give it shit. At the very least, it's an insanely compelling piece of art. Absolutely, absolutely. But there's also a lot of very strange mysteries as to how that was created in the first place.

Because it's not a die. And they're not exactly sure what caused that image to appear or how if that is a piece of art. They don't know how that art was created. And the fact that they really only could see the accurate representation of it once they saw it as a negative is also very interesting because who's going to make a piece of art where you can only really appreciate what it looks like when you see it as a negative?

Hundreds of years before photography's ever created.

“So what are you making and why is it so compelling when you look at it in the negative?”

And if you're talking about something that was created by an insane burst of energy, this is what the proponents of the shroud of touring being legitimate think. They think it was created by this insane burst of energy on Jesus' resurrection. I'm agnostic on it. I don't know idea whether it's real or not real.

But I find it fascinating that they have no real explanation as to how it was created. The I'm pretty much a completely ignorant person or anything they have to do with science. You know, I've liked algebra and geometry and even biology, although I caught up with biology from personal experience. But I just don't know.

It doesn't matter to me ultimately because I'm moved when I look at that.

When I pray and before that image and then look at it, I moved it and so as far as I'm concerned. And for me it's real, it may not be for other people. Well, and like I said, it's at the very least, it's an insanely compelling piece of work. Absolutely. But the thing that I don't want to dismiss the possibility that it's real because I'm fascinated by just the mystery of how it was.

“Can you pull up an image of the negative version of it?”

I was trying to look up a bunch of stuff you guys are talking about. There's no answers as terms of why I was looking for an accurate recreation.

Someone's made, you know, in the last 200 years and doesn't seem to be one.

No, no one has. Yeah, when you look at the image and you realize that this is an actual negative of the original shroud. You just stop and think like, well, what was someone, if you, if this is the negative, like, how would you create that as a positive? Because it, can you show me also the positive image of it? What did actually, okay, so here's, this is one image.

So this is what it actually looks like. This is the actual shroud. And when you look at that, you go, okay, I see like shadows and it's very interesting and then switch over to the negative and it all comes to light. And there's marks from the lashes, from the, the whip marks, there's, there's blood stains from where the rods went through his wrists. It's very fascinating.

Yeah, it's here it is. And again, this is not die, it's not ink. And they don't really know how it was made. And again, no one has been able to recreate this. Yeah, it said that the cloth was made most likely from a loom that was invented until like the 1300s.

Okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that's where for sure came from though, but. Right, right. But here's the image.

“This is how, how was the image changed for the cloth I asked, just, you know, does anybody have any idea?”

I've seen a video where someone gave some sort of scientific explanation, but I don't know if I could remember how to find it right now. Says it behaves like a photographic negative and show some 3D information, which is unusual for normal artwork. The chemical theories that body heat sweat or vapors reacting with the cloth. I, example, ammonia or lactic acid from sweat may have been proposed, but don't reproduce the shrouds sharp, non-blurry details. Simple heat or scorched theories likewise fail to match the very shallow, non-burned discoloration of the fibers.

Human or mad-made image, human-made image theories. Painting or rubbing from bass relief has been tested, but studies have not found pigments in the amounts or patterns that would explain the image. And there's no clear brush strokes. Primitive photography, some suggest that a medieval camera using light sensitive silver salts and lenses could have projected a body or statue onto the cloth and experimental replica show that it's at least physically possible though historically speculative. And now here's the weird one, radiation bursts of energy theories.

Some researchers argue that a brief intense burst of ultraviolet or similar radiation from the body could have discovered, only the top fibrals producing a non-contact image even where cloth and body didn't touch. Proponent sometimes linked this to Jesus' resurrection, but the needed radiation billions of watts without burning the cloth is far beyond anything observed in nature. And this remains a speculative face-based idea rather than a established physical mechanism. In short, there's no consensus mechanism. The image transfer process is still unexplained, and every proposed method has serious problems when tested against the cloth measured properties.

I mean, there's no other piece of artwork that's that fascinating. Because every other art, Michelangelo's work, and all this incredible art, it's art. You see what they did, there's brush strokes, there's chisel marks, you know, they made incredible sculptures, but it's clearly man-made art. This is a different thing. It's a very strange thing. If you can't recreate it today, if they could recreate it today, people would be doing it. They'd be making their versions of the shroud of truth.

I don't know if that's been done historically, but whether there's some, you know, not bag of desire to do business over recreating the shroud of truth.

“Is there a, did they carbon test it? And what are the, what are the arguments that it's older?”

Because I do know that there have been some very recent arguments that the testing was incorrect in that it's older. See if you can find out what that is. Whether or not AI, whether a proplexity or a sponsor has some sort of a bias. The thing is it's like pulling from all these, when you get an AI response to something, it's pulling from all these articles in the web. Most of the articles seem to indicate that people think it's at least either a hoax or an elaborate, only carbon dating seems like it happened in 1988.

I don't know what that kind of thing. Support us over an earlier date, argue that the 1980, radio carbon results, 1980, it is a long time ago, sampled an anomalous or contaminated area. And that other historical and scientific clues point to a much older cloth. Okay, what is the scientific arguments? Contaminated, repaired sample.

“Some research claimed the 1988 test piece came from a re-woven or heavily handled corner.”

So it's carbon date reflects medieval repairs, not the original cloth. Alternative dating methods, x-ray, or crystalographic aging of linen fibers has produced dates compatible with the first century. Though these methods are newer and not widely accepted as definitive, pollen and dust. Analysis reports pollen grains and mineral dust consistent with the first century Middle East rather than only medieval Europe, which proponents say supports a much older origin. Image property, some argue that the image's microscopic features and burst of energy type characteristics require technology or phenomena unlikely in the Middle Ages, implying an earlier extraordinary event.

Well, why don't they do a re-testing? They probably don't want to know that it actually is from a 13-hundredth. It's an unpoled tomb, really believed in it. He went to see it in Turin several times. He said he was moved by it, and that's when they launched this big Vatican investigation.

And he never said in any way that he agreed with the investigation, it just seemed to drop to what was you.

And then from what I know, and he never went any further. But he visited a twice when out of his way. Where is it? It's in Turin. It's not looking up that too. It's currently in the chapel of the Holy Shroud. So here's interesting, it was who found it and went and why or whatever.

The earliest undisputed record appears in the 1950s rather in Leary of Village in France, where the night, a joffery, discharne, displayed a cloth claim to be Jesus' burial shroud. How he obtained it and where it was between the first century, the 14th century, or unknown, later theories traced it, specatively, through Odessa and Constanton on Lope.

I can't never say that. Constanton Opel.

“But these links are debated interesting. What does it look like? How is it displayed?”

That's also displayed. Constanton Opel was named after Constanton, who was the first Roman Emperor who made Roman Catholicism the National Religion. Right. Wow. So you can go check it out. And how big is it?

Well, they got that sucker walled off, huh? For my impression, Joe, this was over the length of Jesus's body. So it's longer than certainly I expected. Well, you can see it's both sides, so apparently it's folded over. But when all those markings are those small triangle markings, what is all that like these things? Yeah. One other picture was pointing those out. It might be the burn marks that it was saying that there's burn marks on it.

Again, it's 2000 years old and theory. It's just imaginative. It's real.

That's the thing. It's like I never want to dismiss the possibility that it's real, because imagine if it is real, that is.

And that's, you know, that's good enough for me.

“What led to your conversion to Christianity? I mean, from a guy who's making these wild, insane movies.”

Jamie, could I ask you for some water? This is water right here. Oh, great. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. JD power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them are choosing this over traditional banks.

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“Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high.”

Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fin tech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners, terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. How long ago did you convert to Christianity?

Well, I grew up Catholic. Oh, my was an altered boy when I was a kid.

“I knew one really great priest in my life, who I'll meet with in my life.”

I became a loudest Catholic. And then when they lived in Malibu actually, I was usually successful with the screenwriter. Of course, and I was beginning to view it all over the place and people were stealing me over my mailbox and all that shit. And I should have been overwhelmingly happy with that, but something was missing, I felt. And I couldn't really put my finger on what I was, but something was missing in my life.

And then I got a throat cancer, a stage four throat cancer, shortly after we moved back to Cleveland.

You know, from Malibu and the Cleveland Clinic, and then a surgeon named Marshall Strowham did a surgery that they had never done in this country.

That's Switzerland. Where they took some, they took a muscle from the left side of your neck and attached it to your larynx. The stage four was very dicey, and then he was very honest with me about how dicey would be. And he did it spectacularly, and here I am at 81. But in the course of all of that, when I was terrified, and really frightened from one day to the other, I ran across the Jesus, reading him.

And then barley Naomi's influence, because Naomi also grew up Catholic in each year at a very strong, the very strong faith. And then I went to church a couple of times, and I loved the mass itself. And then the course of recovery, and I was about a three-year recovery for some time I couldn't speak. And then I spoke like Brando, and then I squeaked in the course of my recovery. And everything I could physically help, I jogged and walked and did all of those things.

And I recovered. And I felt afterwards that the reason I was able to beat a stage four cancer had to do with my prayer life. And then I started reading voraciously about Jesus of Nazareth, the Apostles, all of that ancient Jewish history, Catholic history, and some of that really moved me as well. So I started going directly to church with Naomi, and then it was a boy's body, with the boy's as well. And as time went by, it's time went by.

And I also started having issues with the Catholic church. I continued going to the mass because that was a very special thing to me.

The issue is with the pope making so-called infallible decisions.

And I just shut none, most of that off, although in the process of it, my Christianity didn't suffer at all. But sometimes I feel like I was becoming a kind of an iconostatic Catholic. And my faith in Christ, and even as all of that happened is unflagged. I still pray to Jesus, pray specifically to Jesus. And he continues to be an major and important figure in my life.

So your issues were with the organization? Yes, church. Yes. I respected Martin Luther's revolution, because he revolted against the same kind of issues.

“But the mass continued to hold me worship is terrific, and I believe in it.”

I actually, the kind of worship that really moves me is his black spiritual worship, full-scale emotional.

I give myself to you, Jesus, kind of worship. And I didn't want to really switch religions because I had my basic Christianity, and that continues to be important to me. So you felt moved by like Baptist, like Baptist? Like Baptist, they're old emotional. Throw up your arms and say, "Okay, here I am. Take me, Lord."

Well, definitely seems a lot more fun. It's fun. They're looking. They're having way more fun. It's fun. I also have been very fortunate to the courts in my life to have, like friends and share the black culture. I was involved in the civil rights movement. Shotgun stalking my belly by deputy who'd been entitled for killings until they get to fuck the show by county.

I had a good fortune to have lunch with the Reverend Martin Luther King. Oh, wow. And we stokely Carmichael. What was that like? Well, there was nothing but something he was in town.

It was a way, the debt of a minister in a protest. And he was an unearlder appearance.

“And I think he was probably before he became the tower in the international figure.”

And he was heading back to the airport and he could find his ride. And I happened to be right there. And I said, "I can drive you every day." I was just watching and said, "Okay." So again, we, we, on the way to the airport days, are you hungry?

I'm hungry, can we stop some places at church? So we did. And the, what amazed me about the man, is that he was more interested almost in hearing about my refugee camp experiences. And what that was like and how that worked and all of that, he said he didn't know much about it. Then he really, then he was about talking about the civil rights movement.

He was very, very moving in a powerful figure.

And then I just drove him to the airport. But there was something about the man that was absolutely magnetic. You know, then I felt clearly. And then, but then I also, and when I was in college, I had a relationship with the young black woman. And that brought me much closer to the black culture.

And as I was an ethnic fucking kid, you know, refugee. And I certainly needed lessons in that old cultural area, and I got them. And then I sought them out. And when I was at the Rolling Stone, you were new and was over local. And he would come over sometimes.

“The, I think part of that partly suspect, because they had really stolen.”

And we had some of the most beautiful women in the world working there. We did have a very Canadian woman who got real hot. They were, they didn't wear top at all. So what about that spread? So there were topless.

They were topless when they were when they got real hot. What year was this? Is it in the 60s? I was at Rolling Stone from the 71 to 76. It was like right in there.

In the, in the years where the cultural revolution was exploding. Yeah. The women's revolution was exploding. And then to be at Rolling Stone at that time was like being in the vortex of all of that.

You know, in the, the, the sexual revolution was at its absolute height.

“Um, and the, uh, I've always, I said to you.”

I've always really love a smart sassy sexy with it.

Um, and they'll, obviously it's filled with, um, yeah. I'm sure. What year was the birth control pill event? I have an idea. And I guess 65.

Right. 64. Let me guess. I'm just taking a while. It's weighing.

I have no idea. Yeah. I'll prove what the FDA introduced the market in 1968. 68, 60, 60. 1960.

Interesting. Yeah. Well, that had a big factor. Right. Yes.

Absolutely.

“Because before, you know, women were in a situation where every time they had sex, they could get pregnant.”

Absolutely. And then all of a sudden. But then you've got this pill that's fucking with their hormones that we've found out now. Yeah. The women that have been on it for a long period of time.

They make poor choices in terms of mates. It does a lot of weird stuff. I mean, we're in a trailer in our lot of weird stuff. Yeah. And also, it's very dangerous for them.

A friend of mine, his daughter died. She was 17 years old. She was on the birth control pill. And she was smoking cigarettes. And she, I guess smoking cigarettes in birth control pills for some people can cause blood clots.

I don't understand why or what. But that is an issue. Right. You're not supposed to smoke if you're on birth control. See if that's still the recommend date moment.

Obviously, they said, "Tell you not to smoke period."

“But I think there's some potential complication.”

Smoking while taking oral contraceptive that contain estrogen significantly increases the risk of severe cardiovascular events like heart attack strokes and blood clots. The risk is particularly high for women over 35. Quitting smoking or using alternative birth control is highly recommended. Yeah.

Joe, I had more fun in Rolling Stone than the other time in my life. I bet you did. I had John Winter and here once. Yeah, I saw him. It was an interesting conversation.

He kept looking at his watch. Well, he was, you know, who's John Winter of 2024 or 2025, not John Winter of 1975? Yes, absolutely. You know, not the John Winter that was the editor when Hunter Thompson was writing crazy stories.

You know, different times. People change. You are a big Hunter fan. Huge. And then I know.

And so my, and I wanted to talk about it because I really haven't had chance to talk about it.

It's basically a monster really.

I wasn't the cause of my whole huge success even as a screenwriter. Let me tell you how. The, I was a reporter at the playing dealer. And I had read on to, of course, when he was the national observer. You know, he was kind of pieces from Latin America.

Before he discovered Ganzo. The, and, and I covered it's plenty of it. I covered it. Asian, a Los Angeles shootout of a, I'm a bar called Bartoscafe in Cleveland. And I wrote a story about it.

That the associated press picked up and put on their national wire. Um, the, and I get a note shortly afterwards. From Hunter Thompson. We had read this story on the AP wire and wrote the note that said. I'm barely bear-raising.

Big fucker. Now there are two of us who know what are right about L's Angels. That really pisses me off. All the best. I'm dressed up.

Well, that was a bit of fun thing to get. Oh, man, I was, I was excited about that as my three sons were to meet you rogue. They really, they really, they really, it was really, really something. So, okay, time to go, it's by. Um, and I get a call from Rolling Stone.

I know when I've heard the first, I do a couple of freelance pieces for Rolling Stone.

One on Ken State, um, one year afterwards and the other. I forgot what the other one was. But, um, then I get a call from the managing editor. Paul Scanland, who incidentally was the, was the, was the backbone of the editorial content. He'd come from the, for the Wall Street Journal.

And he wanted to take on the New York Times for Rolling Stone. So, and they wanted me to do a freelance piece on narcotic agents. Um, a corrupt narcotic agents. So, I go out there and, and I discover that, that hunter had been after them to hire me, because of that piece.

And he, like I'm saying, we could go in all of that. Um, then when I'm at Rolling Stone, I write a book called Charlie Simpson's Apocalypse

And, um, and we're friends and, and we enjoy each other's company.

“And the, and I write this book and on to, um, it gets me as agent towards the top literary agent in the country.”

And then gets me as publisher, which is randomized to, the, the, the publisher. And then to, to boot, blurb set. When the book comes out. And somebody, a United artist sees it all and then the book becomes a finalist for the National Book Award. What is for finalists?

Okay. So, somebody, a United artist reads the book, reads because if she reads all the finalists, reads the book, calls me out of the blue and says, you know, you've got really cinematic talents. We thought about writing a script and I said, no, I haven't. And I go to meet them and they hire me and I write this.

All of that. Which led to my success and, and, and, and, and the screenplay, then the cinema was nice to honor. Wow.

And the friendship we had was, was it, I never heard that our friendship was in San Francisco.

He lived in, in the Woody Creek, um, the, and he would come to town. Our friendship was in town. Um, but we ran a lot together. We enjoyed each other. We drank, um, together, we both like drinking.

Um, an education, we wouldn't. It's a good story. We would go down the San Francisco as famed for its stripper bar area.

“I think around the fairle's reading stuff, and the, and I went down there.”

Together there was a very famous stripper show. And one of those clubs. And one of the times we get down there, e, of course, would take acid before every trip down there. And I went to acid, but I, but I did acid once and other wound up holding me for an hour. Um, the, uh, but I'm, I was a guy from Cleveland, right?

Which he always went, you know, which I want you from fucking Cleveland.

Anyway, the, um, I would, I would start with some lines that we go down there. Um, and we were waiting for about an hour. And, you know, the places filled, but the girls haven't come out. And under some, they get up, her roles as arms up in the air. It says, where's the pussy?

We want pussy, right? No. [laughs]

“I don't know, he'd great memories of my life.”

I'd go, you know, go, as I said, I'm down all of that. And then when these are coming, very loudly, he goes, finally, finally, pussy. [laughs] He, he was a, you know, the larger than life, no doubt, colorful figure, but, but also what he was. And then I discovered this.

Um, and he didn't really share this with them and he people. He was very, very well-wrought, well-read, um, the, he had a whole other side. There was a very sensitive and, uh, an api-like side, like side. Um, I, I saw it most clearly once. Um, and being, I was married at, at the time, to a, to a former reporter at the playing dealer.

It was very, very straight. And it really rejected the whole hippie thing and worked in California for a small suburban paper.

Um, and, um, and, uh, never, never, never, but it hurt her.

And he said, I'd be like to meet her. So he asked him to dinner. And answer came to dinner at this, at our small, tiny apartment in the vato, and, and, and my wife at the time, um, the, um, the, uh, cooked a on gear in chicken bupricage dinner. Okay, it's hungry's most famous meal. And he sat there with us and when I discovered was it the boy from Kentucky was there underneath all of that firepower in all of that

larger than my behavior he was sensitive and quiet and they got along like gangbusters, you know, the end and actually interestingly when when when when I drove him to have to dinner I drove him back to town He for the derived back he derated and be raided me because I was having an affair with what he called a zippy chick He says you have this wonderful wife here and you're fucking around with the zippy chick I mean it did true be raised in anger and and all of that he had that side as well

Yes, he did if we had breakfast there was at four in the afternoon and he and then we what he ordered were four more grito six beers and maybe maybe toast with what scrambled eggs And then in that sense he he had more tolerance than anyone that I'd ever seen and my tolerance and those days For boots and especially was also very high

being as Many many years later um, he

“What it needs to write to this screenplay for wrong diary and I hadn't seen him a long time and I had just met Naomi”

whispered to him I've now been very 32 years and then and the

And he wanted me to go to aspirin so that we could talk about And I called he on and I said listen, I He'd overgyles and live with this woman You know, and I don't want to be to go out there Tell me the truth what kind of shape is he?

I'm sort of pauses and he says well He's good And then he's another poison he says, but you know the stones were in Denver and and make and keep Decided to come visit him So between gig so they either drive and they drive up here

And they they have

“They have a terrific time and but they're about there they are about three or four hours and they've got a gig bat night”

So they say listen, we've got to go we've got to gig it above love and honor gets all upset And says where you just got here and they said and then we've been here True for hours and so well You can use to be able to send me leaves the house For when they're sitting there and suddenly they are going shots

He had gone out and shot the tyros out on the hunt and on the stone's car

So I never took Naomi there

I was fighting to find it. What was this? Well, let's see they was in 90 and so I'm 90 something four maybe maybe you said somewhere around Five four five and then three three four five someone and then going hard for 30 years by the point Yes, yeah, or at least and also I won then they had the end for him

I've read and heard it was very sad because and then isn't the sadness Wasn't caused by the drugs it was caused by booze and he was in the arms opinion and then he he had some often in what he Creek And it in his former wife's opinion and Sandy's opinion. It was the booze that did it the You know has been his body began being old and he needed a wheelchair He could hardly walk him to see

“The drove him in the wheelchair at one time. I think in New Orleans when when they were visiting Sean Sean Pen”

on a film He actually fell out of the wheelchair in the middle of traffic and had she couldn't need a couldn't Really pick him up and so they had to get help and cars are going by and all that shit and then and then He also broke a leg when they were visiting a white at the Kahala so it's

As he said in his suicide know which I thought was the most or the cut wrenching and then and but also Terrific Suicide note it was no fun anymore the fun was gone not doing with one no football. No, there's no bad no fun Well when the bottom goes yeah, it's hard to have fun. Yeah, and that's the problem with booze Yeah, exactly well the problem of many drugs, but particularly the problem with booze

You know you're breaking down your body Over and over and over again and with a guy like Hunter who's doing it every day. Yeah, yeah, there's a famous Piece that this reporter wrote when he went to visit Hunter and he documented hunters drug and alcohol use throughout the day You know like six in the morning In the hot tub with champagne like that's the end of the day and then him sleeping and then him waking up and

Doing all the drugs and then getting ready to write and was the guy's name wrote the There's a guy who took me and my friend Greg Fitzimmons reading it out and Turned it into an EDM song. Yeah. Yeah, yeah No, no Right, but the

But the the singer the song yes the guy. I'm sorry the guy who wrote the Yeah, yeah, yeah It's like a electronic dance music song We played it before many times Got a kid. I can't believe it's like a beardy man. Thank you. This guy beardy man

Put it to music and it's hilarious. Oh, I'm gonna check it. It's amazing. I mean, it's a tragic story

Yeah, it a lot of ways but but but in his prime the writing that he did Was in many ways. It was the narration of an era. Yes

You know the heat

“There was you know, there was a snake all the new journalism and I practiced that that's how did”

People like gates of les and David Elvis them and then Larry Algain But then Hunter took that and created an entire new genre that the guns over journalism thing was his And it was there was a kind of humor that that just knocked you down

And it would totally revolutionary

and the the Tom Wolfe on the side who of course was one of the people the founders of the new journalism Said that he was today's version of Mark Twain in terms of what he was able to accomplish two books especially I thought they they were fear-loving and Vegas

Of course and they can't paint book to 72 campaign book which in my mind is the best political commentary including all of Teddy White's books Yeah, fear and loading on the campaign trail. Yeah, just 72. Yeah, and he also had this freedom that was very different from all this other reporters because he was a one-time guy He was gonna go in there and follow the campaign for the entire time and then wrote this book about it But Joe these were all a state The shoot-tie-wearing

reporters and you turn this and there's Big creature who's on them and then on the campaign trail and of course they all fell in love with him and they did Because he was such a free spirit compared to what their lives are of course Well, I imagine you're doing this boring thing which is following a bunch of papers Is there telling you how they're gonna change the country? But you know they're not really gonna do because you've been doing this for 20 years

Absolutely and then along comes a guy's like, let's do assort Pussies You've got this fucking maniac who's drinking and and Saying wild shit and writing wild shit and he doesn't have to be held to the same standards as everyone else because he knows

It doesn't matter if it's never happened back again. It's fine. I'm so sorry

That answer wasn't here with trumps time. Oh my god, because that could have been bugging wild in hilarious But there's also a boy that he just says he would have liked trump it. I know this is heresy to the liberals You know who do think that he's a You know, you know and then and he would have been able to absolutely aid him in all of that

“But I'm that certain of that and I'm then I and I think that that's certain me in terms of his style”

He would have liked things about him about him. Well, I think he would have liked the fact that he's this wild character Absolutely a completely wild character that has never existed in all of presidential politics Before there's never been anything like them. No for good or for bad. There's never been a guy like him We did today. I mean he's he yeah, he should fit with Netanyahu yeah, and he said, you know, and yeah, you're fucking crazy. Yeah. You would have been in jail except for me

I saved your ass. Yeah, what other president for God's sake has ever spoken like that not only publicly But tell us right and in that sense You know, I'm I'm proud of being a deplorable. I'm from Cleveland, you know, the the I grew up in

Modern among poor people and blue-collar people and he's the first president

That didn't talk down but tell directly to us Yeah, for good or for bad. Yeah, absolutely for good. Yeah, I mean he's he is who he is Which is very odd, you know, it's a very it's a very odd person I mean I have a lot of questions and then certain areas, you know the ice area and the father's maybe

the Those shit with the ballroom and all of that stuff Well, the ballroom doesn't bother me that much That's to me trivial construction like whatever the the ice stuff What bothers me is we're opening the door for militarized police on our city streets

As many people say like what we got to get these immigrants out of here that are illegal There's a lot of criminals in this country. There's a lot of people at a committing crimes I understand that I understand that perspective

“My perspective is not that you need to get the criminals out. It's that it is a very slippery slope”

When you give people and they're trained for seven weeks. They're not trained for very long They're trained for much less time than police officers much less time than military and then You have this military militarized police force that has no identification in there on the streets That's a precedent that you might like it when it's for a cause that you support But that could easily be for a cause that you do not support that militarized police force could be going door to door and confiscating guns

That militarized police force that you could you could find other ways where a different ruler could use this President in a very damaging way for our free society. That's my perspective on it. Yeah, I agree with that

When they started calling people like

“Like the women who was killed in Minnesota, and they've been the guy the domestic terrorists”

You know the And the bombination and it's which women who saw the then that woman who is shot by ice and many apolis oh and then the guy afterwards We can't do it. There's also a shot by ice. Yeah, and they call them domestic terrorists But they give credit to Trump. He got rid of Christy. You know you got rid of that guy who was there the time home and replaced

Yeah, well, some home was already in charge. I was in a different position But they did get rid of that guy that also that guy had a very odd way of dressing That was very like he he wore Outfits that were like reminiscent of like Nazi Germany like he had this very weird thing coat that you wear all the time And a lot of people were saying this is a very odd choice

For someone to be wearing who's being accused of fascism see if you find some photos of that dude The the coat so he was wearing were a lot of people like I had to make sure that this was an AI I was like this is this is real coat that he's wearing Is it very strange I mean not accusing him anything. It's just a fucking coat, but it was a lot of people online We're pointing out. This is a very odd wardrobe choice for someone who's in charge of

In many ways othering human beings The other thing that's a problem with this whole ice thing is and it's not the fault of the ice people or even this Administration is that many of these people were encouraged to come here

“That's what's so fucked imagine if you're living in Guatemala and”

You're encouraged to come to America you live in a terrible third world

Situation you have a wherever you're living. It's like the deep poverty you're told that they'll help you get across the border They'll they'll literally transport you into America. They'll put you in these cities And you can get on public assistance if you have a bad back. They'll put you on social security There's all these different programs that are incentivizing people to come to America The Red Cross is giving you maps people showing you how to do and they're letting you across the border

They're letting you into the country and then two years later you're being chased down two years later You've got masked ice workers that are pulling me. It's like it's very inconsistent Obviously this is a completely different Administration, but I feel for those poor fucking people that were told that They can come here and that there was going to be a pathway to citizenship So they upend their life they come to America and the only way they know how and when people say

“Oh, they should do it legitimately. Sure a lot of people do it legitimately and I understand their perspective”

That it's a very difficult path and no one should be able to cut that line and they went through it the right way

However, these people that's not an option for them if you don't have any money and you live in a third world country

And people encourage you to come to America I most certainly would have come to America just like they did Joe I did my parents did you you know I might personify the American dream in terms of what happened to me You know the they said in the camps was the streets of America are paid with gold When we lived down the rain Avenue and Cleveland there was a there was a Hungarian poet

And that poet his name was a dream that it would go up and down the rain Avenue and screaming in a Hungarian old one the old one Which means where is it? Where is the gold right right right but look I came in here is it as a kid I couldn't speak the language we knew no one Yeah, I got into serious juvenile trouble like they'd be I got out of that I studied I was a total lot or die deck

I didn't wasn't a good student, but I did reading The I went take it I went to college The I did I want to be a districtey for a while and they made Joe Anthony Because I'm so I'm just through the sad serpent secretary right and this kind of shit The went to college and I did a well in college

I want a big award and then there's a senior the Yeah, I kept working and I've been and I also Through the years kind of terrific amount of help from Americans Couldn't have done it without him beginning with a

With a bus driver named named Andrew Jackson a black man who had been adopted by Hungarian parents and spoke Hungarian But you know moving on to people and in college you will up to I found them and a great deal of help. I couldn't have done what I achieved What type they help um of other people of other Americans and the and then to top everything off You know the alleywood and 18 films and all of that

are looking for the same dream and many of them are saying what mad at she may have said

“On the rain avenue old one old one of where is it right? Yeah, it's been quite a reason that be that he's tough in Minneapolis”

breaks breaks my heart is the I know is that I these are These Latino people are my cousins and brothers in terms of not the the killers and not the gang members But people who are gardeners and who work in the stores and trying to make a buck and have kids and that they're trying to survive Well, it's also part of the I store you too. Yeah, so part of the I story is that a lot of these officers are Latino

Including the two guys that shot Alex Predi those two guys were Latino and they took these jobs because these jobs give you first of all

You get a $50,000 signing bonus to join ice I mean that's a significant amount of money for someone who's in debt or who's struggling So this is how this guy dressed look at this guy dressed That's kind of crazy see that image to go yeah. Yeah, look at that coat. Yeah, I mean come on

“That's a kind of a crazy world war two military coat”

Maybe a little odd when everybody else is you know The other thing is the masks I understand I understand the need for them that they get doxed their families get doxed

Then it's very organized. This is not organic. These protests are not organic. I understand all these arguments

Yeah, but it's also a very bad precedent. Yeah, this is the problem with it all You know the real thing is you shouldn't be able to have organized paid for protests where you're paying people to protest and you're paying people to cause violence And then you're also using people as political pawns and moving them into the country so that you could Change like when when you have congressional seats. It's all based on the census the more people that are in the town

Regardless of whether or not they're legal or illegal you get more congressional seats. So you they use them for political Yes, they do absolutely they mode political game. Yeah, same old game and that game should be illegal that that shouldn't be legal

The idea of the America dream is a beautiful dream and they've corrupted it and they've they've taken this and used it for their own game

And you know and they've weaponized empathy and it's it's a real problem. It's a real problem for those poor people that came over here Look it for a better life listen. I have an idea run for president or righteous speeches

“Listen, no, I'm not a dude. It's really terrific out of them. I think you're right to be concerned”

You see it. Yeah Listen, I made you win years old, but I really see it, too You know and and it's a great danger is there that I hope my Suns that don't have militarized beliefs on the streets for that reason is a very dangerous person But then there's the other questions like how do you get all the criminals out? I don't know. I'm not the guy. You know, I'm not the one but I'm I am

Very concerned with this this dangerous precedent. That's my feeling. Yeah, so I just worry that people accept it because they want this result now And they don't realize that this could set up This being a common occurrence. I mean we saw some of it during COVID There was some militarized police on the streets keeping people in lockdown in certain cities. They utilized the national guard They they did things like that. It's that scares the shit out of me. Yeah, scares the shit out of me when you you have a justification for

militarized police with masks on that are just grabbing people and some of these people are American citizens It turned out a lot of them were American citizens hundreds of them were you know, we had the same syndrome My I covered the against state massacres. Yeah, I covered that and the one of the things that I saw is the rhetoric that was coming from chains roads The governor at the time and from a so best or Dell course, so it was the head of the national guard Was absolutely the only the main thing that and they created that atmosphere

Then that caused that shooting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and Today just sadly we see many examples of that and yeah, they're great dangers Yeah, you would think that we would learn but we go through cycles where we learn we get better and then we repeat the same things again Yeah, you see that with racial tensions. You see that with political unrest. You see that with a lot of different things in this country So like we we learn for a little while and then we forget

My twins wisdom once again comes through my twins said politicians are like diapers and they should be changed often and for the same reason Yeah, he also said history doesn't repeat itself, but it all stood off and rhymes

He also said a little bit of troubles and something, but I love and he said the

He said when the mind and the pecker argue the pecker always wins

Yeah, I mean he was essentially the original stand-up comedian. Oh, you're absolutely right I'm not you're so right. I really've actually been thinking about doing some peace on it The I'm in and some of you know the history the but but in the beginning he was a stand-up What's his so-called lectures that he did all over the west and then then he did this then he wrote some books that of the books that he's famous for But he went bankrupt and nearly at the end of his life

because of bad investments and then he did around the world tour of Stand-up all over again and usually He said he was a Poets of the Provene because he's a usually for male audiences He published a little book called on masturbation

“Which is about the glories of masturbation the only thing I've heard that's that's close”

Is a Is a this and a stand-up by one Joe Rogan Which there's a great line that says if you're married and have kids The only then the only place to find peace then Toe would say with the pecker that is if you read a motel room and lock the door

You know, but he had the same kind of of Of a verb and love In terms of being a stand-up Being our ages pushing the envelope

And that mental side of twain has been sort of hidden under the notion that he Is the great of and did talk thin and time so here and all of that nobody talks and the wrote a book called Matters from the earth from the voice of the devil He wrote another one he called the mysterious stranger Which is about Jesus coming back in a very dark way and then he wrote one that was published in the 30s

That hasn't been republished called twain erupts You know, so yes He was so right when you say you would stand up. He was a first straight stand-up. He was the originator Because he was essentially a very witty Yes, author who wrote very provocative things very hilarious things and then would read them publicly

“And when he was doing these speeches where we'd go and you know, what are you called poetry?”

Whatever it wasn't was no stand-up comedy back then there was no name for it Yes, but he was just rightlessly funny people loved them and they would go to see them because they were funny And then being initial audiences are mostly male audiences right on the uh, and then they

Yeah, I think he's a great. He's never been really done

The the the the do a piece a fictional piece about twain as a as a stand-up With pushing the envelope With all these things I think would be a lot of fun. It would be a lot of fun. The only problem would be like the cultural context or so

Different back then. It's almost like Did you see Lenny the dust and Hoffman so it's a great film. I think dust and Hoffman fucking nailed it It was as close to Lenny Bruce as you're you're ever gonna see someone portray Lenny Bruce The problem is the world has changed so much since 1960 That a lot of the outrageousness has gone and it seems very pedestrian like the things that he was saying

Because he was such a groundbreaker and society was so locked down and and so conservative and so You know just that there was just the way people communicated was much different back then the understanding of culture and of Race relations and sexual relations was very different back then and so the outrageousness of what he was saying back then It just doesn't really translate

“Because many ways I think stand-up comedy in particular is a window in time. It's a window and to the the way people behave”

Films are that way as well. Especially if you go and watch a lot of old films. It's a window into how people perceive reality back then The There's and stuff that that's rarely been published from Twain that there hasn't really been seen very much that was left in places like the University of California archives That they go it was step past what we know from twain and and I think there's so much of it

There's something called twain's notebooks that there hasn't been published In their full forms certainly Then they may still be shocking The I don't know I meant I'll then meant to still play with it because I'm reading and reading all of that

But even if I never do it's so much fun

Well, I hope you do write something about it because it would be great for people to see and to get an understanding of them because I think a lot of Young people particularly today just think of him as an author just think of him as the guy who wrote Tom Sawyer Tom Sawyer, yeah, he's been pushed into being almost a kid's writer Right, yeah speaking of stand up and my once you don't know and I don't think you know

“Did you know that Sam Kinnison dedicated a CD to me?”

Did he really Sam Kinnison one of his one of his last CD was called and leader of the band B.A. and then ED right and at the end flip side of the CD He thinks a bunch of people regains off and record people and all of that and then also Science on pen and then after all of that in larger letters than the others

He says in the very special things to joists her house or writing his letter to my colobits

That's amazing. I mean, what letter did you write to my colobits? Oh, my colobit was the was the

top top dog The agent and town running CAA and Being and I was leaving CAA because my Best friend and a rabbi and the business was an agent named guy Mackle when it would been running Columbia became an agent again

“So I didn't I was leaving CAA simply because of my love for God and I went into CO bits and said I'm leaving the agency”

And over it said, you know, if you leave the agency then might put soldiers who go up and down will share boulevard We'll put you under the ground. Oh Jesus. What the fuck you know, it's so the About it for a couple weeks and I and I wrote them a letter Which essentially said fuck you? You know, I'm leaving. I'm going back to the prison

He started me in the business in the prison. I love and it turned into a major controversy with headlines all over the place You know what you wanted the ground as strong words. Oh, man. There's had and there was a producer named burning grillstein I don't burn me. Did you eat roti? I don't burn me no more Late years later. We said those exact words that've been used to him as well Yeah, so the and you know what in me as time went on

It became obvious that that the whole controversy with the over-its really hurt him Because other people had been threatened that way and he had a reputation for that and he would and he actually Was out of the business not not not much past that, but but to those that get us and I love getting us in the work The noise that it get us and when I saw that thing I was Overwhelmed

He was one of the greats. He was one of the greats. One of the greats and I I still maintain that for like a period of two years two or three years He was the most profound and

Revolutionary stand-up comic-over. I great

He came out of nowhere. He was so different than anybody else You know, I was introduced to kinnison by a girl that I worked with. I was working at a Jim called the Boston Athletic Club in South Boston It was a girl that worked at the front counter who was hilarious. She was a volleyball player It's really hilarious girl and she told me about kinnison and

Reenacted one of his bits in the parking lot of the club Told me what she saw on TV about he had that bit about Homosexual necrophiliacs Hey, buddy. Yeah, she's on her stomach laying on the she was so funny She was on her stomach in the parking lot going. Oh, oh, life keeps fucking in the ass even after you're dead

It never ends it ever ends and I was laughing so hard that I couldn't wait to go out and get that video tape

And I got that video tape and I was only 19 at the time I had never even thought about doing stand-up yet But that was like one of the first times that I was like, oh, this is stand-up Yeah, I got to know that this was stand-up. I thought stand-up was like, did you ever notice like that kind of stuff? What do you'd see on the tonight show with Johnny Carson? I had no thought ever that this wild shit was stand-up

And you know credit to HBO because

“Before then you would never be able to see that kind of comedy the only way you'd be able to see it is in the movie theater”

It'd have to be like Richard prior live on the sunset stream, which predated that by a few years and no one had any Understanding that there was this kind of stand-up comedy out there that this wild mother fucker who used to be a priest He used to be a preacher And he

He comes to LA and is this wild coax norton fucking demon comedian who's just different than anybody else before him and just changed comedy There's a few people. There's a few characters along the way that have just completely changed comedy and I think Kennedy

I do it him. I know he was a groundbreaker and when I thought it's a day if they didn't Oh, he's it. I have two of his albums two different people have gifted me his First album. What is it called?

“It's not is it called louder than hell? I think it's called louder than hell”

and They're signed both albums are signed both signatures are totally different So I don't know which ones real or either one of them are real and it's a problem like people buy stuff off ebay They want to give you nice gift if I had autographed album and they might not even be real He was a preacher and

That last conversation when he died with Jesus when he's conversing and it's mind-bucked Mind-bucked. Yeah, he's having literally having a conversation. He is someone else here as he's dying. Yeah, it's obviously Jesus It's a Jesus figure. I mean, it's it's my time. You know right? I'm amazing because there's especially amazing considering where he came from What what he went through what he did with comedy and then then that ending yeah, it was a movie made. It wasn't there But it wasn't very good

“About cancer. Yeah, I don't know. I think the weather was thinking about that too. I have a problem with”

Reanacments of a guy who is that profound. Oh, yeah, someone's playing I'd try not to watch because it's just the the actual work of the guy going back and watching his HBO special and watching his stand-up appearances on Letterman and

listening to his first album the first album. I listen to it like Jesus Christ this guy's incredible

It was just so different so crazy and you know and he was the first guy that was like Open about doing cocaine like open about partying You know, I mean he was he was a wild boy It might be I'm sorry On turn turns it being wild by coke my first story when I was at Rolling Stone was it was a

The piece about narcotics corrupt narcotics agents and as a result of the the stories The guy was ahead of the narcotics agents in the state of California had to reside And as a result of that I started getting plastic baggies full of coke at Rolling Stone from the very dealers who appreciate it in my work Now whenever Andre was there, I would visit him with the back and he would go holy fucking Christ

You can't eat some people like them What are the things that sort of divide our pants up? That's hilarious that they were handed over and that was back when cocaine was actually cocaine Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah, it wasn't stepped on you didn't get friends at all. You didn't have to worry about dying of it over those It was the only drug besides it between science smoking dope that that I really really enjoyed I said I tried as at once and they're not around to hold on to me because I was so freaked out

I could only imagine when I watched showgirls I was like whoever wrote this was doing coke

That's like literally one of the first things I've said. I've always said that's like one of the height of cocaine movies

Not anymore, but but certainly the memory of it was influenced influenced by cocaine the Guarantino is a really lovely animal. I would love it. I love it so girl Was a wild movie and I remember you know because it was that girl it was her name Elizabeth Berkeley Berkeley Elizabeth Berkeley who was from safe by the bell right so she was like this America sweetheart

From this really nice sitcom And then all sudden you know she's half naked and she's a show girl and it's like whoa and

“She's having a beer with bulber open right moved out with his wife and it's leaving with it was a bit Berkeley right?”

Crazy no, yeah, she's the least wild times right absolutely fun really fun Jimmy and Registory because he's the Jimmy and Registory experience and I wondered whether he had any kind of a Godfather in fact on under Joe Rogan experience oh 100% I stole the name from Jimmy and Registory

100% I mean when we first started doing the podcast that was I would always listen to Voodoo Child on the way to the

Comedy Store I'd list coming over Laurel Canyon that was one of my favorite that and whole lot of love those are my two favorite songs to Listen to on the way to the Comedy Store. I had like a sound track that I listened to to get myself psyched up for shows You'll love this story and okay, I'm a reporter at the plain dealer And it'd be all of our owners barely know about rock and roll And as I said, I've loved it all my life and when Benterch came around I love this work and he's in Cleveland

For an appearance and fucking Cleveland cops have gone crazy and they're saying that this caused me to riot and it's obscene and all of that stuff

So I do

covers concert in a jamden and Cleveland arena and people and love it and I've set up a date to interview them the next morning

I get to Cleveland Hotel Okay, so um the make sure up the next morning and I am the plain dealer reporter

“I've got a tie on and sport code, you know, and and and I go away and I think it's 9 30 the”

And he's up but he's barely up and he's he's wearing shorts and T-shirt and his hairs you remember it's here, but on this occasion there are a lot of beads and things and his hair as well And it's totally scruffed up Um the And then we talk about rock and roll mostly and his background and the fact that he had been I think as a backup and as a

As a kind of guitarist and a reconelse and band that had been in Cleveland a couple years before then

He had he'd been done this priest up before he went out on his own and and we get a long

And We be in smoking dope, of course a 9 30 and by fucking 11 30 we both got the lunches and he said man I'm hungry, you know, and you got any want to go in any place. I've got a car waiting for me downstairs So I said sure and We go down and then the Mitch Mitchell and Chast Chandler join us

The other members of the experience Or equally Is it looking like city characters, you know, but it's had time in morning it's after concert all of that's repiling to this limbo And I direct them to go to

Buckeye Road is the center of my own gerian community in Cleveland and the center of the own gerian community on Buckeye Road is a restaurant called the bulletton

Okay, and I direct them to go to the bulletton Now they know me at the bulletton because I used to live on Buckeye Road and the biggest stretch limo pulls up Blake last window front and it filled with old ladies with booch cousin guys very formally dressed We get out and run this life And these moronsons three morons just get out of the car and I need the men

And then I'm guaranteed I look at him like what the fuck would what is this you know they made me the And they're just following me of the an and I said I see to me looking around and shit So they see to us the major D knows me so he calls me side and he says What people would who are these people? I said to me and Dricks big rock and roll story, you know he's in town and

I'm his at home and the Hendrix sense yeah to me and So we sit down and and Jimmy says you order for me Great so I order a chicken paprika shrimp, which is a big on gerian meal I'm in the and chasm and and it's a order something else but very on gerian stuff on my advice And the the interestingly as we're sitting there

The major D is obviously spoken to people because old ladies are coming around asking him for not a crap We've got to end these girls you ought to go on please Wow, he's gracious. It's yours The but he loves his paprika and went to order another

“At this point we've knocked out two bottles of wine. I think in words till roll it from all the dope”

So they bring that at the end of this He had three orders of chicken paprika He signed we had like four bottles of wine. We staggered out of there The he signed I would guess the 10 autographs for people will come around bowing. We're gonna get it And as we walk out of the restaurant

He takes us best. I have been there and says hungry hungry As my Jimmy Andrew story That's awesome Rod White was telling us a story the other night in the mothership green room the comedy club green room And he was saying that when he was I think he said he was 13 years old

He went to see the monkeys and Jimmy Hendrix opened for the monkeys He said it was the worst booking of all time you got open Exactly, so this is when Jimmy Hendrix was emerging Really happened to come Jimmy Hendrix yet and so he's the opening act for the monkeys and so you have a bunch of kids That are there to see this really cute band that was you know piece together by

Corporate executives essentially you know the monkeys fun band, but you know they had a TV show And it was very clean sweet TV show Hey, they're going to monkeys, you know, and then you've got this guy Opening up for them this just jam it on the guitar

“And they were freaked out they're like, what is this like what is going on?”

And he said nobody liked it. It was terrifying to people like who is this guy with this guitar like what the hell is he doing?

I talked about writing an entrance in moving and

“Working with a producer brand name Ben Miron and Ben rounded up his brother”

And then we actually brought him from Alibu And unfortunately they we discovered that the rights were so screwed up in between relatives

That there's never been a Jimmy Hendrix movie baby because people couldn't agree on

The deal of any kind, but it's still would be a terrific movie. I think you know Oh, be a phenomenal movie. I believe there was at least one Was there an entrance by a name dock you drama wasn't there Jimmy? I believe do you remember it? Yeah, it was about a hundred or three thousand from Alibu

They'd like couldn't really use all the music and stuff I think oh I'm sorry I didn't hear Jamie he said it was Andre 3000 from outcast I see and that they couldn't use all the music I think I think it's yeah came out

“I was an issue back then too. I remember that yeah”

That's right That's right wow also that the day after you're talking about in Cleveland. There's a recording of the concert Oh wow Shit, that's my Facebook. Is that right? You can leave in concert. Yeah. Wow, there's a I've got a few different links to kept taking me to Facebook But there's a bunch of pictures whoa

March 26, 1968 Wow, then there's a recording of the concert too So you can listen to the recording from the concert. I was trying to get in here. There's like there's an article from His legendary trip to Cleveland Wow, but I this was like paid wall, but I didn't couldn't get all the stuff behind it. Wow, man. He was a nice guy

Imagine a very nice guy just laid back Well, he was just insane one of a Not even one of a generation one one of one talent I mean to this day if you ask most guitarist who's the greatest guitarist of all time

“That's crazy that one guy who died at 27 years old and would he die in 1969 or 1970?”

Yeah somewhere there. Yeah. That that guy to this day is universally regarded as the greatest guitarist of all time You know, I interviewed him. I was known as the grim reaper at the plenty of it because I interviewed Hendrix Janet Joplin Jim Morris and And Otis And they all died and they all died. Yeah, you know, you know, I did it my dear future and I was able easy, I know

And people who come up to me at the plenty and they say what do you have against Jose? Why did you want to visit? That's crazy. It's just unfortunate that they all died at 27 years old Which is really was that right? Yeah, Hendrix, Joplin and Marseau all died at 27 and and Who else? Kirk O'Bain Amy Winehouse at 27. Yeah, it's all 27. 27 is the magic number for insanely talented people to die on

Yeah, very weird

You've had an incredible life man. I've you know, I've been blessed

The I've been really blessed. Recival the fact that I'm still here at 81 Considering some of my excesses in the past is miraculous truly is and started smoking when I was 13 Stop when I was 60. Well, I'd then had just aged four cancer and then the Marshall storm surgery saved me The, you know, the I drank or two hard most of my life until I was 70 And I finally stopped then

The only because I have a hard-headed Italian Polish wife who said enough you're falling down You're taking 12 pills and you're falling down. No fucking more Okay, man, that it now Shortly after we were married After literally after we changed the violence he turned to me and she says

She whispered she says if you cheat on me I'm going to fucking hunt you down and kill you I listen to her. I didn't listen to her. I listen to this one So something fun lady. She is she is and she's I'm very proud of her because at at 67

The mother of fort and truly the the true head of our family

She's writing her first. She's written her first novel

Which is called a dark church and it's said in in Dracula's a transylvania Whoa, and it's a kind of

It's really the And The I I bring it up because I promise her that I would Make this plug and I fear that if I don't I'm gonna be a lot of truck and troubles Thank you very much Joe

I love that when someone does something like that when they're in their 60s just say

“Fuck it up something I was wanted to do. Let's do it. I think it's fantastic. Thank you. I just love”

When people do like fuck your age who cares just put it out I write it my great

Yeah, but I have lived it that we've been amazing life and I did and then I

I'm very thankful the I've seen a lot The and I've come out on the other side. I've seen a lot of darkness too But when it's all over Graham Green who's in

Was in right or that I admire and died I think in his late 70s And he said we get to a point Where we see the fence the fence is there but we can't see over the fence But the closer we get to the fence the more curious we are about what's on the other side of the fence

And there are some people who decide that their two curious people like under it and jump over the fence

I'm not doing that But I'm approaching the fence and Well, I've lived a terrific life and only once again only in the only in America Yeah, only in America. Well, I'm glad you're not jumping over the fence. No, I'm glad we got a chance of talking No, I really did admire his note

“And no more fun, though, it's in the end to me. Yeah, well, I mean that's how he lived and at the end of his life”

Obviously it was not fun. No, no, yeah, but twain won't keep going back to twain This is a good one. I think he said the orgasm is a god's own payback For all the suffering video overlooks in the world That's funny Well, it's like writers in particular are they're so important to culture because they can

Put down thoughts in a way that reshapes the way people view things and on the way we talked about hunter in the 60s and the 70s He was the voice of that generation like he was the guy that was this intelligent guy that wasn't a part of the elite establishment There wasn't a part of the rich fat cats, but was also famous and well known, but stuck true to his thoughts and beliefs It was able to articulate things in a way that gave you this understanding of what was going on with the people back then to that to this day if you read

Fear and loading on the campaign trail or if you read fear and loading Las Vegas or you know any of his work You know the Kentucky Derby is decadent depraved like it's just a phenomenal Capsulation of guys. I don't know even even some guys. Yeah, yeah It's so important. It's And we don't have a lot of that today unfortunately, you know you got a lot of podcasters and a lot of

You know people making YouTube videos and TikToks and just not a lot of like Great writing then encapsulates things where there's like one figure that we turn to to read There's stuff on things and hunter was that guy. Yes, he was Has any way was for previous generation You know under and I talked a lot about any way yeah, because of our backgrounds and

earning only being and and all of that And I think that the fact that hunter ended it and as he did Was it was sort of taught out many many years before it brought these to him anyway

“Inspired by him anyone. Yeah, unfortunately, that's how he did it to and they both shared in common”

They drank to access absolutely, but you know what I was a boy Wanting to be at and I wanted to be a novelist and then a screenwriter or they're boy The only turtidate where any way for Gerald and falconer. They all died of alcohol In any way shot himself be Gerald at her and a heart attack at a very young age While working in as they act collie with screenwriter instead of me and falconer

If I'm off a horse, I think in his early 70s rip ripped totally drunk And these were the idols of the other people coming up and you know What do you think it is about alcohol and writing that go hand in glove be the I for a while I drank all day black coffee and a cognac the

And then then later on in life

And the I didn't have my first drink until noon

And it would take me away was 11 o'clock and and I measured it until

Before was white wine and

And part of it is

“But if you're lost you know in this imaginary world, it's in your head all day”

You can't get rid of it. You can't make a stop And and the booze makes it stop so that you could continue Your normal familial daily Obligations and schedules

What's out of having this and this stuff in your head all the time trying to crowd it out the fact and sometimes Excuse me Back but sometimes I wake up in the middle of night and take notes of something that the character says or something In the kids that I can't get rid of it what the booze when I was drinking if I drank it I'd like to get rid of it and begin out again the next day. It's partly freeing yourself

It's an interesting point. It's partly freeing yourself From something that you've created yourself So it's in that sense You'd create something Then that can hurt you even if you created like greatest enjoyment

Which is what's driving you screenplays and I mean it gives me a terrific amount of pleasure is knowing that It's going to take when people see this It's going to make their own lives more pleasant for at least two hours. They will enjoy it They may they may laugh at it But it will take them out of their own existence isn't a pleasant way. That ain't bad

To be able to do that with people

“Oh, it's huge and then and then that's very important to me people think of it as trivial that entertainment's trivial”

I don't think it is at all no and shapes our perceptions the world exactly you do the exact same thing You make people's lives better by enjoying what they're watching and that's that's and that is not as important or as dramatic as my Daughter-in-law for example, which has got her medical degree who literally literally saves people's lives the

Incidentally Classic Hollywood story at the callissa and then the list has their house works in in Texas in our hospital And she just got her medical degree But to show the influence That Hollywood has on our culture and the other days she walks into a room and there's a gigantic big guy there who's yelling and screaming

No, this is the sweetest person in the world and and then has this wonderful smile And really he's a great with people and she's trying to calm him down and says what's wrong with strong and he just drives him as a really big man And he's screaming and what's wrong with strong and he's he else I won Brad Pitt

I'll get in Texas, you know I'm so much better when You won Brad Pitt. I won I'll get back Brad Pitt

“Why why do you want Brad Pitt because I want to fuck him?”

This sweet one That's a little bit. I'm turn couldn't find it with this mad man. What the fuck Brad Pitt One more example. Do you need of the powerful effect of the culture? So when I write something I don't want some guy say The reason I want Brad Pitt nor do I want for a lot of me is I'm asking to start a fucking war

But I do when people think right right as hilarious when you see like

You say that the alcohol silences the voices yeah, I always thought of it as the other

I thought of it as like alcohol releases people from their inhibitions and allows them to tap it into this voice Sometimes I think that happens with some writers, but it never been my problem There's something about going into a little room wherever you are and you don't have to be an alley What you'd be anywhere if there's as long as there's a little room in the house you can escape to And sit there quiet me and make it up

That you think will that people will enjoy as long as that's there that's That's all I really need and you know the now occasionally I will play music without stop on certain scripts. There's the same way what's it would matter to call and listen to him a lot And Dylan of course, I did a movie with Dylan you know, and he which was also for the experience of the But sometimes this music it's not cold anymore. It's like it's not going to get anymore with coffee

The I drink so much coffee that finally

One day we had a call and ambulance because I thought was having a heart attack Be come allergic to it. It was just caffeine ambulance caffeine Ambulance is driving me down in Marine general and there's a traffic jam. There's construction right and they take him having a

And I never forget it says break her off my name is break her off and I'm yelling at him

“I'm having a heart attack you mother fucker get these guys out of the way. I'm dying your court”

It's worse than the guy who wants to fuck Brad Pitt the kids out of the way Crazy, it's just coffee after all the coke and all the other craziness. Yeah, you will even that guy and so I had a stop I stopped the coffee as well. Um, the Years after I stopped it I was in New York and I ordered a decap espresso

There wasn't decap and I was up for two and a half days without being asleep, so obviously it my system got totally Don't miss you. Oh my God reset. Yeah, you lost your tolerance for it, but the By my I never had it never I never felt it inspired me Now you'd be you know with basic instant writing it be in the sun in the Hawaiian sun

You know, and of course all two all of this it was nonstop smoking You know, I mean two pack of days smoking Beginning with monkeys and Marlboro's and moving out to call was and occasionally cigars like pipe and all this shit

The but so I did do that but I never felt that the

That the coke was inspirational It was an enjoyable and it was fucking dynamite sexually, you know, it's so and and that also comes in handy But it wasn't what fueled your right And it was just recreation yeah, but nicotine did yeah absolutely You know, that's also Stephen King said that that when he stopped smoking was one of the most difficult things that he ever quit like quitting the booze and quitting coke and all that stuff was one thing

But quitting cigarettes. He said he really noticed the difference in his writing well the Yeah, I went through that and I was warned after and after my cancer surgery By this army of surgeons and that I like so much that if you smoke or drink you're dead You know, you're dead understand that and then and so I took it seriously Maybe the drinking my idea. You have not drinking at that point

We're switching from tangy rate of white wine. It's an equation That got out of the end after I'll do until they owe me jumped into the whole prey, you know, so and now you're completely

Not totally I've been first or completely clean. This is all lined up with your conversion to Christianity. Yeah. Yeah, well, I night

I needed Jesus of Nazareth and help seriously to be able to do all that um And then I did a lot of praying But I still believe in prayer and I've had believe in worship

With a group of people. There's a special kind of inspiration thing that I feel

“Yeah, no I agree with you. I think there's something about all those people collected together”

Yeah, that it's just like when you go to a concert and you feel the music with all the people that are enjoying the music There's a similar thing that happens in a church. Very similar. Oh, we're meant to be together You know, we are tribal people and we're meant to be together and there's something about groups of people together Especially in a positive way that united us and connect us in a way that it's very profound It's different than anything else. It's different than watching on a screen

There's something about being in the presence of other people that are doing the same thing Yeah, it's you can feel a vibe And then the vibe is it goes deep and it's really inspirational and when it's really working My feel almost transported I'm on a different level, you know, and I feel myself being on that level. It's wonderful Yeah, and you can see all these other people experiencing the same thing and it's it's very transformational

Yeah, and you know, I was talking about the parking lot of church is like the best place on earth because No everybody lets you go everybody lets everybody go in front of them. Everyone's kind

“You know, it's it it works. That's what's crazy like the teachings of Jesus do work”

Like you do follow them. You will be a better person. Yes, you will but people are very cynical and Rightly so they're very afraid of People manipulating them. They're very afraid of of cults. There you go. You got your cross right on you That's a nice one too. I like that. Thank you There's people are very afraid of people telling them that they know things that they have the answers

Yeah, um the the I'm I'm not afraid of that sometimes I'm just skeptical of it But it depends on where it's coming from and sometimes I don't know where you are but sometimes I could feel Something very special with someone who is talking about those kinds of things, you know You can feel the difference and the difference between that and someone who's not genuine is very apparent

But you know what they'd be if you have a shit detector and you do sort of why

You have a shit detector you can really feel that and pick it up. Yeah block it out

“Yeah, I think you you're shit detector works with virtually everything. That's the audience gets it too”

You know people I agree. I believe the in terms of of

If my if my shit detector advises me to do something. I'm what's always doing yeah

“Listen, Joe. It's been an honor having you in here. So it's been such a pleasure”

You are truly

What you do is you have redefined in the interview and you you made it into a very special

Conversation conversation chat between two guys Who think they'll like each other and They they talk for hours and they they're inspired and they they come out

“Like each other and and you do that to people and I think that's a great gift. Thank you. I thank you”

For the Joe Rogan experience Thank you for being here. It's an honor. It's an honor to meet you in honor to have you on here and I really enjoyed the conversation It was awesome. Thank you You