#2516 - Rowan Jacobsen

[INAUDIBLE]

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Thanks, thank you. And thanks for doing this work. Because you want to talk about a subject

“that's confused so many people, is the sun good for you?”

Is the sun killing you? Why is it giving you vitamin D if it's bad for you? Why do people get skin cancer if it's good for you? Yeah, it's super complicated. And the messaging has not sort of admitted that.

And that was a big impetus for the book. When was your opinion of sun exposure before you started writing this? So I had inherited the conventional wisdom from the institutions that it was really bad.

At the same time, I'll admit that my instincts were that maybe it wasn't as bad as they were leading me to believe, because whenever I was in the sun, I felt good. And I lived in Vermont. By the time winter was reaching months six, I felt bad, right?

So there's more here than we're being told. Yeah, that was my wife's opinion. It's like the sun can't be bad.

It always feels good when you go out there.

I'm like, oh, no, no. It's a little more complicated than that. But that is the instinct. It feels great when you're in the sun. It's like your body wants it.

Your body wants it. I mean, we now know that it literally triggers the release of opiates in the brain, sunlight. So yeah, your body wants it, and your body rewards you when you get it.

So what is the issue? Well, let's go back to the beginning. So you have this idea that sun exposure is probably giving people cancer and sunscreen is good. Do you need more sunscreen instead of the sun?

So when you started going into the research, what made you shift your opinion? So it really started for me, like seven or eight years ago. I was on this science journalism fellowship. So I was just doing research.

And some of those studies hit. The one about opia release in the brain and other studies showing that when light hits skin, cognition actually improves. Like your metabolism cranks up a little bit

when the body feels sunlight coming in. And I thought that's interesting. That's all good stuff. Then I came across a couple other studies that seemed to indicate that sun like a lower blood pressure,

which was really interesting. So then I still had the sense sunlight bad. So then I remember just like Googling. So how much does sunlight like shorten your lifespan? And like the punch line is sunlight

seems to extend your lifespan. So when I hit that, I was like, why are we not hearing this? So that was the beginning. And so then what is the problem? But what is the issue with sunlight?

Like when you think about skin cancer, what are the confounding factors that lead to skin cancer? Are we completely aware of that? It's more complicated than we thought. So sunlight increases your risk of skin cancer.

But it depending on the type of skin cancer you're talking about. It's not necessarily like a linear relationship. So yes, in general, too much sun increases your risk of skin cancer. But yeah, the question is, what are the confounding factors?

“How important is skin cancer compared to these other things?”

If sunlight reduces your risk of other diseases, how does that weigh against the risk of skin cancer? So it's not the type of thing that can be done in a 30-second PSA. Right, so sun cancer that does cause skin cancer.

Or excuse me, sun exposure that does cause skin cancer. What is causing it? Why is it happening? So ultraviolet light, which is the most energy and tense part of the solar spectrum.

When those photons of light hit your skin, they go inside, we absorb all wavelengths of light to a greater lesser degree. And that's super high energy ultraviolet light. If it hits a DNA molecule, it can mess up the DNA molecule.

And then that can lead to mutations and skin cancer. Then it can also indirectly cause skin cancer by creating what are called reactive oxygen species,

which are free radicals, basically.

So it energizes these atoms that start to steal electrons from other atoms and causes a little chain reaction, which is what a free radical is. So ultraviolet light can increase your free radicals and it can directly damage DNA.

“So that's why it could cause skin cancer.”

So it was basically that learning that one fact back and like the four reason 50s that made scientists start to say, uh-oh, light skin cancer, maybe we should think about how much sign we're getting. But this wasn't universally accepted, right?

There were some people that even back then

Like when did we figure out that sun causes the body to produce vitamin D? Yeah, that was an important part.

“And it's a big part of the story, I think,”

because that was really back in the 20s. That we figured that out. And then even a little earlier, we realized that sun light could prevent rickets. So rickets?

Yeah, so rickets is a soft bone disease. Like if you don't get enough calcium in your bones when you're a kid, when you're baby, you get soft bones, you get rickets, really bad disease. And in the industrial revolution,

kids starting getting rickets, start getting rickets.

Farm kids never got rickets.

Then suddenly kids are working in factories. They're living in cities that are choked with coal smog. They're living in tenement buildings. They're never seeing the sun. And they all start getting rickets late 1800s.

Is nutrition a factor in that? Vitamin D. It was all vitamin D. At first, they thought maybe it was vitamin A. But it turned out that was how vitamin D was discovered. Was some doctors figured out that it could solve

rickets and kids. And then they figured out that if sun hit skin, that's how we made vitamin D. Then they figured out. How did they figure that out?

They tested, they tested some tests on the dogs.

Actually, one of the guys figured it out.

He had a hunch that that's what it was. Like they noticed the kids in the country wouldn't get rickets and kids in the city did get rickets. So like wonder if it's sunlight. So then a guy took dogs and,

in this is a ducking skyland, stuck them in a... They actually thought it was dietary. He stuck them inside in this little warehouse and fed them oatmeal, which is whatever in a skyland aid at the time.

And the dogs got rickets. And he thought it was the oatmeal. He's like, okay, so something about diet. But then he got lucky because he had deprived the dogs of sunlight.

And that's why they got rickets. So then eventually they realized that light hitting cholesterol molecules in the skin actually converts the molecules to vitamin D. So vitamin D is like downstream of cholesterol.

But it takes that same ultraviolet light that can screw up your DNA. It actually breaks a bond in the cholesterol molecule, which allows it, it gives it some movement and it flips around into a new form that's vitamin D.

So once they figure that out, then they're like, sun's really good for you. So we had this air in like the 20s, 30s, and into the 40s, whatever one thought sun would cure everything. And they like went after it hard.

Really? Yeah, like parents would send their kids up into the alps in like the 20s to institutes for healing a therapy. Kids would ski around their underwear. They take classes in their underwear.

There's awesome photos from this, this era. Like the instructors are in their underwear in the mountains outside in Switzerland,

“teaching the kids, and everyone looks really healthy, right?”

So there's kind of like this idea that you couldn't get too much light. So people are literally burning themselves on purpose for health. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

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“Is that the issue is burning a giant part of the issue?”

Yeah. So to give it away, now it looks like, for melanoma, which is the most dangerous type of skin cancer, it's associated with burning strongly, but not with, like, gentle, moderate everyday sun exposure.

Like, people that are pale or have freckles and red hair, blonde hair? Like, how much of a factor is that in skin cancer?

“And can they mitigate that by, like, gentle, slow exposure?”

Like, a little bit of here, a little bit there, and solely build up? Yeah, huge. Like, skin type is kind of everything. People have really dark skin. Basically, don't get sun-induced skin cancer.

They're almost never. And the authorities don't tend to talk about that, because they want things to, they want to have, like, these one-size-fits-all recommendations.

But those recommendations, to basically always avoid the sun,

are written for the super-fair people, especially, if you have red hair or inch freckles. Then, you actually have a mutation in your melanin gene that makes you super susceptible to skin cancer from sunlight.

So if you've got, if you've got that phenotype, lots of moles, red hair, freckles, you do have to be really careful. And you can only do so much. Like, you're not gonna tan that much anyway.

Your melanin's just different. Everybody else, yeah, you're much less susceptible, and you can tan, you know, you can make more melanin pretty easily through tanning. - I wonder what if any effect,

“if you ever heard of that, I can't remember the name of the peptide,”

but there's a peptide that people are taking now that causes their body to generate melanin,

and they get really dark.

- Yeah, yeah. - It's really weird. - Yeah, and I don't know what's going on there exactly. It seems like that peptide is maybe making you, there's things called photo sensitizers

that make your skin super-like, you just absorb solar radiation really well then, but not necessarily in a good way. And that can make tons of melanin to try to compensate. So I wonder if that peptide might be triggering

like melanin, as a compensation, that can it is for extra protection from sunlight, or maybe it's just making melanin happen like independently of cell night. - Did you put it in a proplexity?

- All right, here it is. Melanotan melanotan, melanotan, melanotan synthetic peptide, analog of the naturally occurring hormone, a melanocytes, stimulating hormone, stimulates the body's melanocytes

“to produce melanin resulting in a dark tan.”

It's large, unregulated, illegal in many regions for cosmetic purposes, and carry significant health risks. All right, what's the risks? It's not produced by the FDA for cosmetic use,

and unregulated market means purity. Okay, but that's unregulated. Notable risks include dermatological issues, rapid and uneven darkening of existing moles, the emergence of new moles, and hyperpigmentation,

concerns that could mask or accelerate the development of melanoma. What is this potentially damaging erections? What are erections? - Oh, that's right.

This apparently gives people raging erections. - Why? - Prolonged, painful, and potentially damaging, when you get an erection that goes so hard, you redline the penis.

(laughing) Medical and dermatological organizations strongly advise against the use of melanotone, melanotone, because it's unapproved, there are no clinically established safe dosages.

- Well, care, because that alpha MSH, the thing that it is mimicking, is that's how your body makes melanin. That's how you buy supposed to do it. - You got to see the before and after,

'cause they're kind of bonkers. I've seen some people get super,

well, the problem is it's Instagram.

You never know what's real. That's, that got a little tan. Let's see if there's any, okay, look how pale that, see if that's not, how do we know if that's real? - Just like there's like a light on them.

- Right. And then he's in a fucking dark closet in the last picture. - That's before and after photos I've seen. - Is there that one right there? - No, no, the one, yeah, that one, look at that guy.

(laughing) - Well, you know, it's a look, it's an interesting look. - He injected himself, I'm gonna regulate a tanning peptide, melanotone, melanotone, two, click on that.

- Seems like a joke, a little bit. - No, no, this guy, this is the guy that I saw online. This guy's, he's the test rabbit. This dude went hard. - Did he get an erection, too?

- Yeah, he died from that. I don't know. So his before and afters. So let's see what his, he just, yeah, he just got a darker and darker and darker.

But I wonder if like, I understand that it's unregulated,

they're trying to work with right now with peptides

and make them regular. See, that's, the photos dark though.

“I mean, that's like a shitty iPhone one camera.”

That's crazy. If that's like, this is nuts. There's something going on there. Like, you know what it looks like? It looks like those bodybuilder guys

who use that, the ink that die on their skin to make themselves darker. So the muscles pop out more. So here's better, tanning log photos. These are better photos.

That's crazy. But I wonder if that offers skin protection. - It would definitely offer, I mean, if it's, if it's melanin. - Right, definitely, I mean, that guy can probably be outside

all day. - Yeah, so that's the question. Is that available to someone who's pale? Like, and if someone is pale,

see if you could find an example of someone

who's pale who took it? 'Cause he would think like, oh, well maybe that, maybe just we need to do studies and figure out what the dosages and figure out how to activate that aspect of it?

- Melon and clearly protects you from skin cancer. Like if you have super dark skin, like, you know, African ancestry, you're blocking, that your melanin is absorbing like 97, 98% of the UV rays, it's super effective.

- But didn't Bob Marley die from skin cancer? - He did. - That's pretty crazy. - Okay, this is one. Wow.

It looks like the same person. Hard to tell the difference. - Same mold. - Yeah, it looks like the same mold. That looks pretty good.

- Well, I would just also, wouldn't if you were trying to sell some of this stuff and maybe in a various ways, this would be an easy one to market. - Mm, tough and, you know.

- Definitely. Look, this is part of the unregulated market problem. It's we don't know. And also, you know, you're getting 99% broscience on this stuff.

You know, like, let's do this. Let screams broscience, let screams it from the top of the hills. Like, what legitimate scientists

“is out there injecting themselves with the melanotown?”

- But the other thing is, if you do it naturally, right? If you just get a little sun every day and slowly build up, you're not just making melanin, you're also increasing your body's damage repair system. - Mm-hmm.

- When you have all these, like, nucleotide, excision repair, things that fix your DNA and fix cells that have gotten screwed up. And that will also ramp up every day, you. And it's not just sunlight, like exercise, same thing.

Like, anything that, like, stresses the body a little bit, like more mucous, right? So, all those things are going to cause your damage repair system to crank up and be ready. So, you could probably want those to, like,

the melanin and the damage repair to, like, go up together. - Right. So, you would want to, if, let's say studies were done, let's say we found what the effective and safe dose is and how to administer it, you would want to do it

along with sun exposure slowly to try to ramp up your body's ability. - Added note on this. This happened 14 years ago. - Wow.

- Which is strange. Here's some of the side effects he said, but he also said he is pretty much impervious to UV at this point. - Increased libido.

Didn't see that one much either. He said he didn't get it. When, okay, sides are decreased appetite. Very mild nausea, more for some, none for me. Decreased libido, increased libido.

He said it didn't see that one much either. Some get facial flushing, like a nius and dose, never got that either. And the most strange things that it feels really good

to stretch, like when you first wake up, interesting.

Huh. Did you do it for the skin color? Yes, I did it for skin coloring. I'm pretty much impervious to UV at this point. I have faded about 25% since returning from Florida

January 30th, will be dosing again, probably a march. Is this guys still alive? - That's 14 years. - 14 years. What is that to tell you?

- Click on that link where his profile. Let's see if the home boy's alive. - Where this takes us. - Dressing up. - He's not alive.

Is this reddit? - Say you're going to be commenting. I never did it subtle. - Okay, so you're going to still alive or someone is taking over his account.

(laughing) In theory, you could use an old school court's tanning lamp. Okay, so you could tan with it. - And isn't it weird reddit there? So we're gonna stop looking.

Why? I mean, this is not for the show, but he isn't that weird. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we were trying to find the friend to go that way. - That's a problem.

- Well, only crazy people were willing to try something like that.

“Like, do you remember that there was a guy kind of thing”

it was on Oprah or one of those shows where he was taking, was it silver? - Yeah, quite a silver. - That's right, colloidal silver. And his whole skin turned blue permanently,

like a smurf, poor guy.

- Yeah, and how did it kill him?

- I don't know if it killed him, but he's,

“I believe he died, that's homeboy, not good.”

- Yeah, that's just not a good look at that. - You would think you'd start tanning a little blue and you'd go, "Hey, maybe I need to back off this colloidal silver." - The officer of dies.

- Yeah, I mean, what the fuck dude, that guy. I mean, maybe he could've gotten some Lantern even that out, and just been a nice chocolate. You know, like a blueish chocolate? (laughing)

- I mean, he looks delicious, I'll say that. - Yeah, this is our greea. Our greea, our greea, the rare disease it turns people blue, caused by a buildup of silver in the body, which discolors the skin.

Wow, 2013, he died from unrelated causes. Whatever that means. I mean, anybody's taking that much colloidal silver, you're probably making a lot of other mistakes. - I mean, yeah, like, you're a risky dude.

(laughing) - It's only options. (laughing)

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- Back to Bob Marley. - Yes. - He did die of skin cancer and that confuses a lot of people. So he had melanoma on his toe.

So and that was a kind of melanoma that's not caused by the sun. And everybody gets it, no matter what race you are, everybody gets it at the same rate, which is quite uncommon. They know it's not caused by the sun,

but it complicates things for people because people like, I got melanoma in my toe and they think it's from the sun. I'm like, how did that happen, right? Like, what's melanoma doing on there?

But so, it does, not all melanomas are caused by the sun. There's most probably are, but it gets really weird with melanoma. It's associated with burning, with intermittent sun exposure,

like you work in an office all year and then you go to Cancun and get fried. That's a pretty good recipe from melanoma. History of sunburns, also like, we'll double your risk. Chronic exposure, where you have an outdoor job every day,

lower than average risk of melanoma. So it's really, yeah, so it gets weird. Like landscape versus. Landscapes have outdoor workers have fewer, have a lower incidence of melanoma than office workers.

(laughing) Wow. And we don't hear that. No, no. I mean, I was looking at Instagram the other day

and some poor guy had this, I don't know what happened to his face, but he had some sort of skin cancer. And they had to take a graft and his, it was on his nose.

So it was like a flap of skin was like, almost covering over his eye. And you know, his message was where sunscreen. - Yes, that's what happened to me. - Well, so, I mean, yeah, so I don't want to downplay

a skin cancer because it sucks. What you get, if it's, you know, they have to cut off a hunky or a year or something that doesn't sucks. Even if it's not life-threatening. - Sox, yeah.

- So. - But, and so, yeah, but that's generally from overexposure. Like, burning. - Burning. - All the experts I was talking with said, don't burn.

- Right, burning is the one that,

people always say that it's not just burning.

It's burning causes damage that starts to appear years later. - Yeah, and there's, there's dialing in on that more and more. It can start, like, burns during childhood is actually the highest association from melanoma. - So you don't burn when you're a kid,

so we're all screwed. - Oh, that sucks. That sucks 'cause I fucking cooked myself as a kid. - I mean, I grew up in Florida. - Right.

- Well, when I was a kid in the '70s and '80s,

it was cold as shit in the winter, when it got warm, you're a Vermont, huh? - Yeah. - You got out there, like, ah, put baby oil on. - We fried.

- Oh, I was just looking at some of those Johnson and baby oil ads from, like, the '60s and '70s. Oh, my God.

- Yeah, it was basically cooking lube, who is...

- Totally. - Yeah, it just helped you cook better. - But you remember, you know, George Hamilton, like the actor, Mr. Tan, he was all about that. I just the other day, I was like, how's he doing?

'87 and ridiculously healthy. - Really? - Yeah, he's going strong. - Yeah, I met that guy. He did an episode of News Radio once.

Yeah, he was Tan as fuck. - Yeah, that was his thing. - That one's his thing. It became, yeah, what he was known for, and still, he's still going.

- That's, so he's still Tan?

“- Yeah, you should say, I mean, it looks great.”

- What do you look like? - Pull a photo of George Hamilton. - I mean, great for an '87 year old. - Yeah, look at him, still Tan. How does he vanish, I mean?

- What a weird thing to be known for. (laughs) He's the guy who gets Tan, you know what I'm saying? I mean, try to remember a role that he played. - That's true.

I think he was Dracula in some bad 1970s, like comedy. Look at that, that's a tan right there. - Right, so how was he getting it though? Like, I remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot of people use tanning beds,

especially in the winter time. - And they still do, like, those are actually like, on the rise. And they do, they seem to raise your risk of melanoma for sure. There you go, that's how we did it.

- Ah, look, he's got to reflect a tan thing. So he's just out there getting sunlight all the time. And he didn't look bad, that's a, that's a weird one, right?

- He claims he's never had skin cancer, I think.

- Well, he probably was doing it so often that his body was prepared for it, right? Look at that photo of him with that lady in the corner. Yeah, look at that, that's nuts. - See, that's the thing, I think, like,

if you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these compounds whose entire job is to make sure your cells don't turn cancerous. Because, you know, living things

have been working on this for 500 million years. Like, they've been getting hammered by this on every day, and they got to deal with it. - Right. - So it seems like when your skin is totally unprepared

and you shock it with that, like, a massive dose that it's not ready for, then you're in trouble. Like, that's the kind of thing that triggers trouble. Was there any pushback on this research? Like, when you first started examining this

and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits,

we're any dermatologists saying, "Hey, this is dangerous information." You shouldn't say this. - Hell, yeah. I've been denounced multiple times.

- Really? - American Academy of Dermatology, like, officially. They send an official letter when I write an article,

“and they say, "Don't but you should be getting”

any sun exposure." - That's their opinion. No one should be getting any sun exposure. Regardless of the benefits, the vitamin D, the... - No sun exposure without protection

from either sunscreen or, you know, clothing. - Wow. - And if that makes the vitamin D deficient, take a pill. So that's what needs to change. 'Cause those pills haven't paned out in tests.

They don't work like natural D, does firm whatever reason. - Really? - Yeah, they don't work at all. - What do you mean?

- So, everyone thought, like, back in the 80s, 90s, everyone started noticing. Scientists started noticing that people who naturally had lower amounts of vitamin D in their blood had higher rates of all, like, the classic chronic diseases.

So they started thinking, okay, vitamin D, it's like a magic pill. I was able to cure, it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D. So they started recommending vitamin D pills,

“which I think are still like the number one supplement.”

- In the world. - I take it. So then, they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. Huge clinical trials, tens of thousands of people

follow ups that went for many years. None of them showed a benefit. - No benefit in terms of your immune response. - No benefit for any condition. - Now, did they take vitamin D

along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended. - So I mean, they were a bunch of different. - Apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective. That you need vitamin D with K2 and magnesium.

And I think there might be another one. - Well, see, put that into proplexity, please. - See what it says, like, what are the benefits of vitamin D in which it'll be taken with?

'Cause I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones. And that, together, they have a sort of a synergistic effect. - Yeah, that could be, like I'd be curious. - Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself,

It's like, well, there's a lot of things like that. Like zinc is like that. You need an ion of four to absorb zinc. So you take it with course of 10? - Yeah.

- Well, one thing, the way your naturally comes into the skin and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds. - Right. - And so yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right thing.

- But D from the sun has always been known

as the best way to get it.

“Like the best way to get vitamin D, the most effective,”

the healthiest way is through sun exposure. - Yeah, that's how the design's supposed to work. - Proplexity says vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, build strong bones, the teeth support muscles and nerves,

plays a key role in immune function. It's best absorbent take it with a meal or a snack that contains some fat and offered paired with calcium for bone health. So please put in what are the benefits

of vitamin D taken with K2 and magnesium? - Let's see if it says that. - 'Cause this is what my doctor, who is a vitamin specialist, recommends. - Benefits when taken with K2 and magnesium.

- Don't, don't, don't, don't. - Okay, taking vitamin D together with vitamin K2

and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively

especially for bones and heart, as long as the doses are appropriate for you. The trio mainly improves how your body handles calcium interesting. D helps you absorb it, magnesium helps activate D

“and K2 helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries.”

D increases calcium absorption from your gut and supports bone muscle and immune function. Magnesium required to activate vitamin D, low magnesium can blunt vitamin D's effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes.

K2 activates proteins that move calcium into bones and teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health. Potential benefits of the combo, better bone support, heart and artery protection,

more efficient vitamin D use. Okay, so the doctor is correct. So maybe that's the problem. So these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium, didn't have K2.

- Yeah, I thought I'd be curious if there was an effect on disease incidents for that combination. - Mm, I don't know, 'cause the deon is owned, yeah, it didn't show any effect, but sun exposure.

- Let's put that in. Does vitamin D take an on its own, have any health benefits? - Let's see what it says to that.

'Cause I've never heard that,

that D on its own was not effective at all. I just heard that it was minimally effective that you had to take it with other... - It seems like it only helps people who are really deficient.

Like if you're super low like below, like 16 nanograms per milliliter, then probably it's a good idea, but like for people who already had, like at least 20 nanograms per milliliter,

it didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they were seeing in people who naturally had high rates to do some exposure. - I'll take it the way you're looking for it. - This is yes, vitamin D on its own

as several well proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles and immunity. - It's just a general answer. - Huh, bones, strength and fracture prevention, muscle function, adequate...

- I didn't add it on, sorry. - What's that? - I didn't, I missed the word on, taken on it. - On its own. - Sorry about the answer was weird.

- So let's say, yes, as clear proven benefits, especially for bones, muscles and correcting deficiency. - Yeah, so that's gonna be for people who have super low levels. - Preventing rickets, there it is.

- Yeah, so they had thought that it might reduce instance of all these other diseases, based on what they're seeing for people naturally at high levels, through some exposure. - And it didn't.

- So then people who had high levels, through some exposure. - Yeah, 'cause like your natural level of vitamin D is sort of a direct, like, meter of how much... - Right, but this is a natural level. You're not talking about supplementation.

- Right, right. - So that was why people who had high levels of D without supplementation have lower rates of all. Like every disease you can think. - Right.

- So the hope was that raising everyone's D to those levels would have the same effect. And it didn't, like doing on journal medicine, did it actually did it editorial in 2022 saying stop prescribing D doesn't work, which is sad.

- God, that seems incorrect though. 'Cause if you're taking it with magnesium and K2, it seems that they do work synergistically and there seems to be proven health benefits.

“That one of the problems, I think, is like,”

I think people generally want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason. It's kind of a weird thing, like they wanted to dismiss it.

don't bother taking vitamins, just eat a balanced diet.

And I was like, "Look at you." (laughs) - God looked like shit. - He didn't look as good as you, right? - Look terrible, I was like...

“- Yeah, I'm amazed how poor, what poor health they generally”

like seemed to. - I can't blame. - I mean, it's so hard to take seriously a guy with a gut when, well, it just looked terrible. - Yeah. - And he was telling me that I just need a healthy diet, I'm like, "Okay, I do have a healthy diet."

But also, I feel different when I take vitamins. And my blood work reflects that. - Yeah, I know that when I started going to all the conferences of the sun researchers and they're all in, like, the basements of hotels and those guys all look,

are as pacy as a gut, like, do you know any of you guys, like, you know, practice what you preach, really? - How strange is it that human beings with all of our knowledge, with, I mean, obviously, just much more to learn. We're still confused about how we interact

with our environment. - Yeah, absolutely, a hundred percent. - With sun, which seems to be like, it's there.

It's everywhere, it's like you're always in the sun,

in normal, in the normal world environment, where you, outside of cities and all that stuff, that's, it seems like we would have an understanding of what happens when you're interacting with sun. - Yeah, and light period, like, light of all kinds.

Like, it seems like there's the sense in biology that light didn't matter. It's like just a femoral, which, you know, the quantum physicist a hundred years ago understood that light and matter are just like,

to have the same coin, right? And that light totally affects the behavior of your molecules. We're made of molecules, light's gonna matter. So I actually think, like, that's where I eventually got to with a book, I was like, we need to think about

our light diets and our, like, light skates that we're, you know, surrounding ourselves with, like, more seriously than we have. - Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on the data.

So what did these dermatologists have to say about the data, if they're denouncing you, and they're saying that, you know, this guy should not be listened to, the things you're saying are dangerous,

it's like, but you're talking about data. So I don't understand how they can just make those flat statements like that.

“- Right, and what I think we just need to have a conversation”

about the data and, you know, there's no, like, right answer ahead of time. But they don't, like, their jobs are to prevent skin cancer. So if that's your only job, you're gonna tell people stay out of sunlight forever, forever, right?

And no one can call you on that. No one can say, hey, like, I got skin cancer, it's your fault. - Right, but doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower blood pressure and isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous problem than skin cancer

in terms of numbers?

- It's number one, 20 million deaths a year, cardio.

So anything that moves the needle on that is awesome, you know? - And it does. - And it seems to it, like all the studies show it does, and they're all observational studies, right? You look at populations, you're like,

oh, these people have more sun exposure, lower blood pressure, lower rates of cardiovascular disease. But then, you know, the other side will say, you know, correlation does not prove causation. Like, prove show us that it's, you know,

do your giant clinical study, where you stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer, which is not gonna happen. - Right, yeah, but it's like, are they willing to have a conversation with you?

- They're not, they're not willing to, they don't wanna look outside of the sun and skin cancer question. Like, they're not willing to entertain any of the other benefits that are outside of their field.

So there's gotta be somebody out there who can be the generalist who can, like, think about it, holistically. - That seems so ignorant. - It's the, it's the data science now, like,

the science is, you know, like, a field of micro specialties. - Would you like some crop? - Yeah, I'll take a little. - Good, when you're pouring it. - It's also a very shiny press.

- Oh yeah, right there. - You got it. - Cheers, sir. - Cheers. - It's coffee good for you. - Coffee is awesome, coffee is shocking, they good for you.

- Talk to me, let's go. - It's, it is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you. I've been, like, startled by the power of the evidence. - Yeah, I've read both. I've read it's bad for you and I dismissed it

because I'm biased and I love coffee and I just, it just tastes too good, it feels too good, I like it. - It's, but I've read a lot of benefits about it.

“- I think it's the best possible supplement.”

- Really? - You think if it's the supplement, it's the bad and I think it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think it makes your mitochondria just spin, you know. - And it's a particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself.

I think it's caffeine, but I wouldn't be surprised

if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing 'cause, you know, like tea doesn't seem to quite like deliver the goods, like coffee does. - No. - But caffeine is actually, the plants are making it to kill bugs, right?

Because it makes the bugs mitochondria run out of control and they basically like blow up, it does that to us, but we have these other like governors, like the come in and slow down that ramp up, so we get the nice ramp up without the explosion, so it's good.

So it makes, you know, we produce energy more efficiently with less wear and tear. - That's all I need to hear. I'm in. (laughs) - I just love the coffee, I'm not giving it up,

but I've heard many people say that Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote.

“He laid off coffee for, I think, three or four months”

as an experiment, and then he had a cup of coffee and he said it was like taking a psychedelic.

He said, I just felt so amazing,

and the effect was so profound, he said, I really wanted to do it only that way where I only take it, you know, very rarely, because but then I fell right back into my mind. - He went right back, yeah.

I remember that article, I was great, and also he said, none of the caffeine researchers touch the stuff, I'm like, that's not good. But yeah, he went right back to it, and I think he's a proud coffee drinker.

- Yeah, he is, he went right back to it, but, so have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are denouncing you? - No, but I'd like to, actually, I think-- - Are they willing or have they avoided them?

- They have so far really avoided, like they just say, you know, we're not ready to look at any of that research, which is so weird.

“- I think it's going to change, I think actually,”

like like I said, I think light medicine is actually going to become very important in the next 10, 20 years. And dermatologists are kind of positioned to be like the leaders on that stuff,

'cause like, skin is the primary interface with light for our bodies, and, you know, they should be experts on all this, you know, red light therapy is a big thing now. And dermatologists are doing that,

even though the evidence isn't great for that, but I think there's probably something there.

But they should basically, I think they need to be thinking more

about all of these different wavelengths of light as healing modalities and how to, you know, work them into, like, regular, like, programs. - I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening,

but I've essentially, it's completely stopped my macular degeneration with red light therapy. - Wow, yeah. - Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like, I don't need reading glasses anymore.

I've been using a red light bed for about two years now, and from the time I started using it within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Brecker was on the podcast and explained it to me, and so I went out

and bought one of these really expensive. It's like a tanning bed, this thing you lie in, and I do it three times a week for 20 minutes. - So all over? - Yep. - You'd make it just slide down and there.

And I keep my eyes open, and, you know, I went to a tanning bed once, not a tanning bed. A red light bed once at a health clinic, and they were like, gotta wear these goggles, and make sure you close your eyes

for the light goes on, and they're okay. I did all that, and apparently there's some benefit that even when blindfolded, it increases your vision. - Yeah, for sure, and I think, again,

“I think mitochondria are part of that answer there.”

There's a guy at University College London, Glenn Jeffrey, who this is his whole field, optometry, and red light. And he has shown in multiple different animals, including humans, that red light improves mitochondrial function, and improves vision.

- Yeah, I mean, I'm 58, and for me to be 56, and saying, I had these fucking things everywhere. I had these reading glasses, I had them all in my house. I got an up to three X, these are the cheap Amazon ones. I had a nice pair, but I keep losing 'em,

so I just went up a bunch of cheap ones. They seemed to work, and it was just fine for looking at a computer, reading my emails, reading my phone, and I needed 'em to read my phone. I don't need them anymore, like at all.

I don't use them anymore. My vision's not perfect. It's not as good as it was when I was 20, but it's way better than it was when I was 56. - And yeah, I think, so the mitochondria,

the eyes have to fire faster than any mitochondria, anywhere else in the body. The eyes burn through energy, like no other cells. 'Cause it's like, it's kind of the toughest task. It's like, they gotta go super fast.

So yeah, those mitochondria need to be on top of their game, and it seems like red light benefits that in particular. - What seems so close-minded that these dermatologists

they're just insufficient amount of data, maybe we're looking at this wrong,

maybe the whole thing is much more nuanced, and maybe there's benefits if it done correctly. I just don't understand why they're not what, if there's all this data, which clearly you show in your book, there's a tremendous amount of data.

Why? - You know, like, so there's this, like saying attributed to Max Plunk, who's this like quantum physicist, science advances one funeral at a time, right?

“So I think we got to let the old guard die off a little bit,”

but I guarantee there's a young generation coming in, who's gonna be really interested in light, and how they can use it. - Oh, certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available online now

from actual researchers and people who've put in the time, and put in the work, and explore things from this position that like, hey, maybe the old guard are not correct, and the data seems to show that that's true. - Yeah, and it's fun.

I mean, playing with light, it's super fun.

So like, this is a way you can make your world a little bit richer is starting to think about this stuff. - Well, it's also like, don't you want to be informed? And if we do understand that it hasn't effect on monocondria, and there is all this evidence of red light

seems to have some benefits, like, wouldn't I just don't understand how someone could be an expert in skin and ignore that? - Well, I think that, and they'll be, they won't object to the red,

they're just some of them are using red light therapy, 'cause there's no risk of skin cancer. - And red, it's only the UV, and maybe a little bit of the blue that contributes to skin cancer. So, it's the UV, where they get a little wigged out.

- But even that, it seems like there's such, like in your book, you show there's tremendous amount of data, there's just health benefits to it. So I just don't understand.

- And that data's a little uncomfortable.

It's coming from all different fields, like immunology, cardiology. So, and, like scientists, there's sort of increasingly hesitant to trespass on their other domains. - Right, you know.

- Like they're not gonna walk across campus to the other building, you know? - Yeah. - Yeah, that needs to change, you know? - Yeah, we've had those discussions too,

with scientists that are super frustrated, especially when they try to get interdisciplinary groups together to study one particular thing, and everyone's resisting, 'cause they have their own work that they're working on,

they don't want to get involved, and it's like, "Guys, this is what you're here for." - And it's not a lot of scientists. You gotta do your job, because like, you're the only ones that are doing it.

There's, without you guys were fucked. And if you're out there relying on old insufficient data, or, you know, you have this very small data set that shows that there's negative outcomes to the sunlight, and so you just throw the baby out with the bath water.

Like, you're doing the whole field of massive disservice. - And the other part of it is that science, it's sort of very self-reinforcing, it's all grant-based, essentially. Like if you're scientists, you wanna do a study,

“you have to apply for a grant to get the money”

to do the study, and there's generally a handful of entities that are handing out the grant money, and it's the old guys waiting to die, who are gonna approve what they think is the truth. But they're gonna fund the study

that fits with what they already know about the world. So it's this kind of crazy system where the only way you can get money to do a study is if you're already telling them what they know. - Right.

- So it's very difficult to get funded to do something that goes against the grain, increasingly so, and that's the problem. - And so much of it is dependent upon the ego of the people there at the top of the organization.

- The ego's definitely part of it. - It's a giant part of it because if they've based their entire career on telling you one thing that turns out to be incorrect, they're reluctant to correct themselves.

- Yeah, it's not just, it's very rare to find the individual who's well-known in the field and is eager to self-correct, you know. - So if you have any conversations with any of these dermatologists?

- No, but I'd love to. - Not one, that seems crazy. Have you reached out to any of 'em? - I have. I've reached out and I get the boilerplate.

Like, we don't want anyone in the sun, take a deep pills, doesn't matter.

“And the one that really, I think has got to change”

is the skin color question. 'Cause fine to, you know, go with the recommendations for avoiding sun, for people with fares skin. But for people with dark skin who have almost no risk from the sun and skin cancer

and can benefit hugely from things that will lower blood pressure and lower cardiovascular disease. Like, it seems like you're not being fair to those people.

- But only that, it makes you feel better. Which is very important just for sanity. - I mean, that, I think that gets underplayed. Like, mood and happiness is kind of the whole deal, right?

that Sun exposure makes you happier.

“- I spent a week with my friend Brian Cowan”

and Steve Renella in Alaska and Prince Edward's Island and it rains there like 350 days a year and we got rained on for the entire week and then when I came back to LA I was driving around and the sun was magnificent.

It felt so good. I stood outside, I closed my eyes, I stretched my arms wide, like I was just taking it all in and I called my friend Steve up and I said,

dude, because we were in the rain for like a week, I go, I'm in LA right now in the sun and it feels amazing.

I never felt the sun like this before.

It's 'cause like my body was saying, you didn't get enough of this for a week. Now take it in and we're gonna reward you with all these amazing endorphins and good feelings. Like, if that was a drug that drug that I took,

like if depressed people could take whatever I felt when I was out in the sun after a week in the rain, they would take it every day. They would change the world. I could feel like this all the time and it went away.

You know, it went away 'cause LA it's sunny all day long every day, so eventually I got accustomed to it but that feeling that I get that I got after the week in the rain and coming back and just be like, it was incredible.

It was like a drug and amazing drug, a happy drug. - Yeah, it's an awesome drug and I've felt it for Sherry. You know, especially like early spring if I leave Vermont and I have something in LA, I'm just like, why have everyone not just dancing

on the streets, there's a ghost thing here.

But the problem is Los Angeles,

there's so used to it, they're so spoiled. Everyone there, so spoiled, weather wise. It's the perfect weather on earth. It's incredible. Especially if you live in like Malibu,

where it barely even gets hot. So you're dealing with that cool ocean breeze and it's sunny every day, you know, like, oh, yeah, but how about here? It's like the end of spending a lot of time outside here.

- Oh yeah, oh yeah, I do, but I'm outdoors all the time. I work out outside. I do a lot of farmers carries outside. I practice archery so I shoot my bow outside every day and I love it, I feel better.

Even when it's hot out, I don't mind because I'm really kind of accustomed to it because of sunny use. I use a sun every day and I'm pretty religious about it. So my body's really acclimated to heat.

So it doesn't really bother me that much. I just bring a big jug of 64 rounds jug of water with ice and electrolytes and I just drink that while I'm out there. So I'll shoot my bow for an hour and a half,

two hours and 105 degrees and I'm fine. I love it. - Actually, that's good too, yeah. As a kid in Florida, we play basketball after school for hours or in summary of being 105 degrees.

And then you just kind of turn the hose. - Yeah. - He's going to mouth for quite a long time, you know? - Yeah, I mean, it feels great.

“It's just you have to make sure you're not dehydrated”

and you have to make sure you don't burn. That's kind of all it is. - Yeah, exactly. - That's all it seems to be. But we do see like truckers that have you ever seen those?

- You're talking about that famous photo. - Yeah, that is a crazy photo. - Crazy photo. So what we're referring to is there's a photo of this trucker and the left side of its face from the sun coming in

from the window looks like he's 20 years older on his left side than it is on his right side. - It's like special effects. Somebody melted the left side of his face. - What's that all about?

- Yeah, there's the guy. - There it is. - Yeah, literally nuts. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's literally nuts.

- Like left side is just sloping off basically.

- His left side looks like a hundred year old man truck driver face here is behind the wheel driving a truck. Damage typically limited to the left side of the face. So it's literally called truck driver face. - Yeah, so that photo and that study got used

to like scare the shit out of a lot of people try to keep them out of the sun. - Especially people that are vain and don't want that fucked up, wrinkly face. - This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley.

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Look at the difference between, wow, that's literally bananas. So what they're showing back and forth is they're just taking the skin from the left side of the face and switching sides so you can see how much damage he's received on that side, the driver's side.

Yeah, and so there's a couple interesting things there. One, that is shocking. But the question to ask is, why does an every trucker look like that, right? Like, if that's the problem, why does it, why him?

Like, because I've been driving in a car for 45 years and my face is-- The same when the left is on the right. I'm hanging in there, but the other thing is windowglass,

“I think, is actually a really interesting problem”

to talk about. Yeah. Because windowglass blocks UVB, but not UVA. And there's two different wavelengths of UVB. The UVB is the super high energy one.

UVA is a little bit lower. It's kind of on the way to blue. And they used to think back in the day that UVB was the only one that caused skin cancer. And those old sunscreens that we used in the '70s, 80s,

only blocks UVB, windowglass blocks UVB, blocks only part of the UVA. So anytime you're driving or you're hanging out in a window in your house, you're getting a bunch of UVA. You're not going to burn because UVB is the one that causes burning.

But you're still going to get a bunch of UVA, which they figured out, like, in the '90s, does cause skin cancer. Oh, wow. So sun through the windows-- Sun through the windows.

Not as good as sun outside. It blocks UVB, but the UVA comes through.

But you'll never have a burn reaction because of it.

But you might be getting damaged. And so like in the US, people get slightly more-- slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the left side of their body. In the UK, they get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the right side.

Because they drive in the opposite side of the road. So window glass is slightly slightly. It's like 5248. It's not huge. OK, but it's statistically significant.

It's statistically significant. Yeah. So do you think it's this guy's particular genes? They must be somewhere about that guy. Right.

“Well, how many instances of truck driver face do they have?”

I just Googled the condition. And it's only him coming up in the photos. So this is the thing. One lady, but I don't-- clearly doesn't seem to have the same issue.

There's a lot of truck drivers that have been doing it for 50 years. That's not the same thing. Oh, that's not real. Is that real?

It's a different thing. She's got some drama that they're draw. Oh, but it's coming up as the same condition. Unilateral, Derma. Oh, so she had some sort of cancer that made her way--

it's way into her draw. But I can't-- and I would have assumed that more cases would pop up, but it's literally just him. So that's the thing. The real question is, what's up with that, dude?

Yeah, interesting. Front truck does not respond. I don't think that's the same guy.

“No, it doesn't seem like the same person.”

It might be. It's hard to say. Quite different lighting. But so the thing is, so those sunscreens, that we're acting kind of like windowglass in the '70s and '80s

and even into the '90s before we got the broad spectrum sunscreens, they're a block in the UVB. So you weren't ever burn. And that's what SPF actually measures as how many more times you can be out in the sun

without burning. So if you got-- but it's based totally on UVB. So if you got SPF 30, in theory, you couldn't spend 30 times as long outside before you start to burn.

That's a long time, right? But all that time, UVA is just pouring into you. And they now know that UVA is the one that probably is most likely to cause melanoma. Oh, that's crazy.

Wow, so sunscreen. Now, I use a natural sunscreen when I use it at all. It's this stuff that's like beef, tallow, baste, and it's very white and obvious. It's the spray stuff goes on clear.

You can't even tell you have it on. But it's very effective.

But I'm always super hesitant.

I'm like, what's in that stuff that we're going to find out 15, 20 years from now? Like, if it can block the sun, so it's a chemical. And you're spraying this chemical on an organ, which is your skin. So your skin's absorbing it.

I'm like, what's going on there? And they used to say, oh, no, no, it's not absorbed very much. And then the FDA CDC did studies a few years ago, and discovered that it's absorbed at very large amounts. Like, yes, it turns up at high doses or higher doses than they

And what specifically turns up and what's dangerous about it? So they're suspected to be hormone disruptors, all those classic chemical filters, like oxibensone. There isn't much proof that they're dangerous in the amounts used. But they definitely are absorbed at much higher rates than we thought.

And the FDA has refused to approve them as safe, pending more testing. And nobody's done the testing. But they're about to get phased out anyway. Just as of a couple months ago, the government changed the rules

and is going to let in for the first time in 30 years, new ingredients,

which they've been using in Europe and Asia and Australia for decades. And the sunscreen companies have been asking to use them and haven't been allowed to. But they're finally going to get to use one of the main ones. And one of these ingredients? So it's called like demo tris and all or something.

And there's another one that you see in the Europe called, like, Mexico 400. But they're way better. Like basically, U.S. sunscreens are a generation behind everyone else. Because in the U.S. sunscreens are regulated as over the counterdrugs.

That much is a no. Yeah. Bemotry is an all-highly affected broad spectrum.

U.V. filtered blocks both U.V.A. and U.V.B. approved by FDA.

So over the counter-s sunscreen ingredient in June of 2026. Oh, wow. So this month's happened. Celebrated for being a highly photo stable, doesn't break down the sun, transparent on the skin without leaving a white cast and gentle on sensitive skin. So this is RFK junior stuff.

Yeah, this one looks really good. So this other stuff that has been in there, why didn't it get examined if Europe and Asia and all these other places were using these different safer versions? Yeah, they all bailed on it long ago.

Because it was all we had and that drives me crazy. So in the U.S. sunscreens are regulated as drugs counterdrugs.

“So you have to do all this safety testing if you want to get a new ingredient in everywhere else.”

They're just cosmetics so you can use kind of whatever you want with more minimal safety testing.

So the companies wanted to use the stuff in the U.S. forever. But the FDA said, sure, just do the testing. But they didn't want to do, there's two expensive to do the testing. They'd have to test it on animals. They didn't want to get the blowback on that.

They're a bunch of reasons that they weren't willing to do it. Also, I think they're a little scared of what they might find. So anyway, so our sunscreens have not been nearly as good as what's used elsewhere. In both in terms of performance and maybe safety's suspicions. So that's going to change by the end of this year.

It's going to get better. Well, that's good. Are there with the traditional sunscreen ingredients that we used to use? Is there any negative health consequences of using them that they've shown? Like, is there any diseases that occur more readily or more frequently? Um, not that have been proven.

There's like toxicologists that are little suspicious about some of them.

“Like, they've definitely been shown to mess up coral, right?”

Like, people are... Oh, reefs, yeah. Yeah, that's one of the things they've found after COVID, right? They used to think. These to think that it was the warming of the environment.

This was one of the things that climate change people used to say. The climate change was destroying the coral reefs, really. And then it turns out, actually, it's all these people that have sunscreen all over the body. And they jump in the ocean and they're essentially poisoning the reef. Yeah, I mean, it's all they've of, I'm pretty sure.

But, uh, but yeah, the sunscreen at that kind of concentration, if you've got a, you know, a bazillion star clears in the water, can definitely mess up the coral. It wasn't there some sort of a study that examined what happened to the reef after COVID. There was one particular reef that was in a highly visited area where people would jump in. And they showed a massive increase in the reef after COVID.

Yeah, like one Hawaii band used to those sunscreen. A bunch of places banned those, that style is sunscreen. But the, uh, but they don't really check your bags though. Okay, yeah, right.

“What do you mean when they say band, the people are not taking it anyway?”

But it doesn't look, I don't think it has a much impact on, uh, on us, unless you're using a ton of it. Which of course, now some people are. So it's not great for you, but it's not the worst. Yeah, there's been a bunch of studies that just looked at like lifespan, uh, and sunscreen doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, like positive or negative on lifespan.

Hmm, so it just might have some sort of an impact on hormonal function. Yeah, it could well, um, endocrine disruption. Endocrine disruption, there's a guy named Graham Peasley at Notre Dame who, um,

Um, and it's, even if they don't have it on the ingredients, like anything that's like water resistant,

“or super smooth, is quite possibly going to have forever chemicals in it.”

And some of it is actually coming from the plastic containers, because those get, um,

they basically get, like, fluorinated with this, like, flooring gas before they get anything in them,

which is supposed to make them, like, a little smoother than inside of the containers, but it turns out that actually leaks forever chemicals into the product, whatever's in there. Hmm, that's what he found. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this is a problem with hot coffee when you drink it out of a paper cup.

Very similar, yeah. Yeah, people don't realize, like, the paper cup is not capable of keeping that liquid. Yeah, it would turn to mush. Yeah, the reason why it doesn't turn to mush is because there's essentially a condom, like, around the inside of the coffee cup.

And, you know, Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup down to show what it looks like on the inside.

And you're like, oh, no, you're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do.

And it's also, like, most coffee machines, like, a giant percentage of coffee machines have just plastic everywhere. I got rid of mine. That's why we use French press at the studio and I use that at home, too. And I've wanted to arrow presses to make it an individual cup of coffee.

Yeah, it's like, the plastic is a real problem and heating it is terrible. We know that about water bottles. Like, you're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle. You leave in the hot sun in the car. So now picture of that bottle of sunscreen that's sitting in your car, cooking, and leaching into the material.

Yeah, not good. People don't think of the skin as an organ. And I was explaining to a friend of mine the other day, he was using a hand wash that fucking hand sanitizer stuff. And I'm like, man, I don't think that's good for you.

“I mean, I think if you want to wash your hands, you should just use soap and water.”

And then I read this article about it and like, oh, yeah, that's a toxic chemical. Like, hand sanitizer, when you're using it every day, you're essentially exposing your skin, your organ to this, like, what exactly is in hand sanitizer and is it bad for you? Because I remember this article, but I just like went over the headline and briefly started reading it and then I had to do something and I put a bookmark to it.

I was going to go back to it later and I never did.

Okay, I thought you could just say, like, something happened to the bookmark. No, no, no, no. No, I just never went back to it. But I remember during the COVID times, everybody was just like, hand sanitizer everywhere. I'm like, I just don't think that can be good for you.

I mean, anything that's anti-biotic, right? Even it's healing biological life, probably you want to be at least a little bit hesitant with. Mostly alcohol. Well, even alcohol, going through your skin like that. Isopropyl alcohol, sometimes using stead, oh, of or with Ethanol, similar levels.

And then this word, Benzau, Kenonium, chloride in many alcohol free products. All right, but see if you can find articles on the dangers of using hand sanitizer. Because this is what I had read briefly. Just say overuse it, you're going to fuck up your skin by, I don't know. Yeah, that's what's saying overuse.

I just, I just know that. I know, guys got OCD and he's, you know, a hypercontract a little bit and he's just hand sanitizer all the time. It's kind of crazy. And a friend of mine, without knowing, went to look at his house because his house was per sale. And he's looking at the house, he's like, it was very nice house. And he opens up a closet and one of the closets was peeled with hand sanitizer.

And he got so freaked out, he didn't want to live in the house anymore. He's like, I don't want to buy this house. Like this guy, like, whatever weird thing he's possessed with that he needs 50,000 fucking bottles of hand sanitizer. Even issues are just classic. Overuse and then don't not use it on your hands, obviously. Don't breathe it, don't drink it.

Right, only use it on your hands. Yeah. By Jamie's right on the skin biomes. Skin biomes.

“For sharing out to be really important. Like, there's, you know, they call it the gut skin act”

access where your skin microbiome and your gut microbiome are like chatting all the time. Mm-hmm. And you can change the composition of your skin microbiome based on all kinds of stuff. Products, science boger, you know, everything you do. Probiotics?

Probiotics. Yeah. Well, in the jujitsu world, in the early 2000s, people started really getting into probiotics. They started really getting into acedophilus, yogurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables, and stuff like that,

Because jujitsu, because you're getting scratched up and you're rolling around and there's a lot of infections.

And a lot of people get, not just infections, like staff infection, but they also get ringworm and a bunch of stuff like that. And so some people started using anti-bacterial soap. And the problem with that is it just nukes all the good floor of your skin. Yeah. So then there's a company called Defense soap. And they developed a soap specifically for grapplers.

And this soap has tea tree oil and you can lip this. And it's very healthy for this skin. So it promotes healthy gut flora, but it does kill all the kudis. It kills all the mat kudis. Yeah.

“Yeah, that's I think that's basically what you want.”

Like, that microbiome, it can take a lot of natural abuse. It's there. It actually lives on skin, so it's usually getting, like, roughed up by the world. But yeah, two chemicals that are too strong can take it out. And the gut flora is important as well. It's like, you got to think of the whole thing as one sort of ecosystem.

Yeah. Your whole body, it all works together. And if your gut biome is all fucked up and you don't have healthy gut flora, it can affect all sorts of different issues. And yeah, it shows up on the skin for sure. That's well known.

So when you first started getting push back against this,

did we use a prized to upset you? Like, what did it feel like to get attacked by dermatologists? I am naturally conflict adverse, right?

“So that's kind of, do I even want to talk about this?”

But it was such interesting information, a thousand important. So I wanted to, it started, um, I wrote an article for outside back in, like, 2018. And I titled it, is sunscreen the new margarine, right? So right there, that's pushing buttons. Yeah. I probably, you know, in retrospect, I don't push as many buttons today.

I just point to the data. You just didn't like it, didn't like the response? Well, I mean, it got a massive, I went truly, you know, viral, as they used to say. But it, it actually attracted, like, now it, I think, I think those old sunscreens really were, like, margarine detrimental, like the ones that only block UVB.

So I think I kind of got it right, but also it, like, the title, detracted from the information in the article in a sense. But why? Because margarine sucks. Margarine sucks. Those old sunscreens did suck. The new sunscreens are, they're fine. But, um, so it's a good comparison. It turns out to have been, yeah, like, the more we learn about those old sunscreens,

the more it looks like a sort of, like, a catastrophic mistake that then got fixed. But, uh, but, yeah, so that, like, I, so now the books is out. Suddenly, I've got all these, like, beauty magazines contacting me. And, um, they have this image of me as, like, you know, the unibommer. Like hanging out, hanging out in my cabin and firing off these missiles.

Really? Yeah, that's from like beauty magazine. They were nervous to talk to me because they thought I was going to be, you know, a cook, a cook.

Yeah. Wow. So the first start, so those is sunscreen, the new margarine.

So that was the first one. And what was the response to that? To, like, what do you remember the first, like, really negative response on how you felt about it? Um, so yeah, so there's official letter from the AAD, uh, like, you know, we, and, you know, they're very, they're very polite, um, but they're like, here, we, we, we think this is misrepresenting, you know, the, the information. Um, and this is, and we think this is

dangerous. If you're telling people that they might benefit from more sunlight, that's dangerous. So that's probably, and then, you know, when that came in, I was like, so that needs to change. If, if we have in our heads that exposure to any sunshine is dangerous, we, you know, we're not seeing the forest for the trees. We've lost the thread on this one. Uh, so then, so I did a much of either out of it. I did one article that focused specifically on the skin color issue,

like, do people of color, do we need to stop telling people of color that they need to project themselves from the sun? Um, and then I did a couple more recently, uh, for the Atlantic, just on them, like, what should recommendations be? How do we, can we do recommendations that are not one size if it's all? Well, skin color in particular is one of the best signs of

“adaptation to environment. I mean, that's how human beings were able to get vitamin D from the”

sun in a place like Scotland when people moved there, they got pale as shit. You know, like, 100%. Completely makes sense. Yeah, and you can track it. It's like the gradations of lightning go with that move northward. Yeah. So you could tell, like, white skin is like a desperate attempt to get enough light in a, you know, you know, screwing or either an environment.

moved to California or Arizona, Australia. Yeah. And Australia is real bad, right, because there's

“all the people that use hairspray in the 80s. They cause a fucking giant hole in the ozone layer”

over Australia. Well, yeah, essentially. Yeah, Australia, when I was there, they have these signs on buses, like these warnings that show skin cancer, like these horrible lesions on people's faces and stuff. And it's just this warning to worse sunscreen and hurt yourself. They're right, for that. Like, that's the textbook case where you've got a horrible mismatch between the population and the place. Like, super, super high level of the sunshine in Australia. We go zone

like red heads from Scotland to like, are trying to deal. So, like their their skin cancerase are literally like two or three times what they are anywhere else in the world. Wow. Now, how much of that is because of the skin color of the general Australian population other than the indigenous people and how much of it is because the ozone? So, those on is healing

“itself. Slowly. We're getting there. So, that's probably less of an issue now. It's really”

it's a really fair skin population in a super bright intense environment. So, they do need to

worry about it. But the problem is, the rest of the world has kind of set its like rules about

sun exposure based on Australia. Well, it's interesting also about Australia. It's like, I wonder how long it takes for human adaptation to start to show itself. Like, do you think like in 100,000 years from now, people that live in Australia will be dark? Well, David Reich had that did that great episode with you, right? Did you have David Reich on? David Reich. He's the Harvard ancient DNA guy. Did we? No. So, he, so he just came out with a new study. Like,

do you have so many people on like, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. I've like if I didn't hear it where I hear it. Anyway, I would be Lex. It just that movement started a few thousand years

ago suddenly like the that pale redhead gene came out of nowhere and like skyrocketed. So, it

can change pretty quickly when the environmental factors change. Really? And that said that's only a few thousand years old. The redheaded gene. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of lingering quietly in the background.

“And then like, maybe that's why gingers get so much hate because they're just brand new. They are,”

they are like the next new thing. But yeah, 4,500 years ago, it suddenly explodes in popularity, but in a very particular place in northern Europe. And most likely, as a result, to the environment. Yeah, for 100%. Wow. So, I wonder how long it's going to take and but I wonder if we could go into the future, if the same population lives in Australia now? Well, I accept, here's the weird thing. Like, so Australians versus UK, right? Similar genetics,

Australia super high rates at skin cancer because of that sunny environment, but also way better lifespan than in the UK. Really? So, skin cancer is a factor, but that sunlight is actually benefiting Australians more than it's hurting them compared to the UK. I wonder if a lot, it's a wonder if that's a healthy user bias as well, because one of the things about Australia is a lot of outdoor activities, a lot of people are doing stuff outside. Yeah. And a lot of activity

period. And that could be a factor. And actually, that's one thing I come, you know, come down to in the book is, it's really hard to disentangle all of these factors, but what's really obvious is just outside good too much inside that. Yeah. So, whatever, like, you don't even have to like break it down too much, more outside, covered up whatever you want is probably going to be good for you. One of the things a friend of mine as a doctor said that he, when he was working in New York

City in the winter time, he would find people with undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah. And he said it was a particularly a problem when people with darker skin, because if they have darker skin, you're going to get less vitamin D from the sun, whatever exposure you do get, and then these people were all indoors all the time. Yeah. That's a really bad formula. Like, yeah, if you have dark skin, you need five to five to ten times as much sunlight to make the

same amount of vitamin D. So, you're really, if you have really dark skin, you're kind of designed for a very bright tree, you know, tropical environment where you're, where you're outside all the time. Outside all the time, you can handle 12 hours a day of sunshine. And in fact, you're going to benefit from it. You get moved to a really dark environment that's not going to be good for you. So, you probably need to compensate in other ways. It's going to be very interesting

And how do people react to fair skin people all sudden getting dark? Like, like, yeah, you know,

“like, well, we are one race. We are, it's where the human race. There's a bunch of different”

ancestors where people came from different areas where they adapted to different environments,

but the reality is we're just human beings. And we all started in Ethiopia and we spread out.

And that's just what we are. We are the result of whatever environment our ancestors evolved in. Yeah, totally. And with Wisconsin tone, it's clearly like very, very specific reactions to that environment and trying to figure out what's best in each situation. But there's so much racial identity that's tied to these characteristics of your appearance and where your ancestors are from. It's going to be very weird if all of a sudden you could, like, people get, like, dark, thick,

curly hair. And they used to be genders. I wonder how people are going to react to that. I mean, it's common, right? Right. It's coming. And that's their off.

Yeah, I just wonder how many people are going to be claiming cultural or racial appropriation

with people just deciding to have a healthier skin tone that protects them from the sun. I see where you go. Yeah. Well, yeah. Like, that guy with the melanotan, I wonder. I wonder if anybody got mad at him. Right. Right. Like, what are you supposed to look like? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What are you supposed to look like? Yeah. Yeah. There was a lady that was on a television show once that was turning herself black. It was in the UK.

And this lady looked, she looked like she had other issues. So giant breast implants. She looked like a cook, a bunch of plastic surgery. But she was dark as a date.

“Like, like that lady. That's a white lady. So that's what she used to look like.”

And she's getting her boobs bigger and bigger. She wants them bigger. And so look, she keeps getting a little too far, maybe. Maybe. Why, that's her. And that's her. So what did she do via intense use of tanning injections? Yeah. So she's, she's the ultimate melanotan hero. Wow. Um, I mean, that got that lady got like Camaroon dark. Like, look at that photo again. Go back to that video. Like, that's crazy. That is crazy. That's crazy. I don't know. Maybe

you're not sure how scary it works for you. Uh, maybe. Well, it would, right? It would protect because it is melanin. But obviously, she's got, she got other things going on. Like, you, like, yeah, at some point you might might have too much malice. Well, so here's the funny thing about melanin as well. Like, so it's made by our melanocytes, which are what can become melanoma if they get

“screwed up. And those are in the very bottom of the epidermis, the outer layer of the skin.”

And it's incredibly good absorber of UV, better than anything we've come up with. It's almost perfect at it. But what you want it, when your skin gets hit with sunlight, that melanin that's just been produced is at the bottom of the epidermis where the melanocytes are. So it has to migrate to the surface and then it kind of acts like, like, like, little umbrellas. Like, it'll like cover the nucleus of the cell and protect it. So you get these little like umbrellas, a line of umbrellas

on the very top of your epidermis. But it has to migrate up because of sunlight. If melanin is lower in your skin, then it's going to absorb all that radiation farther down and actually it can cause more free radicals deeper in this skin. And what would cause it to be lower? So it starts

lower and it only goes up in response to sunlight. So if you're never, ever in the sun and you

suddenly go out and get hit by a bunch of sunlight, your melanin's going to be down to low and can actually create free. It can exacerbate the problem. So this lady might be exacerbating the problem if she's just just getting the melanin that way. Don't, yeah, I don't know because I don't know about this specifically, but you probably, yeah, you don't want to just be like messing around with melanin. Like, she said that she is. Oh, boy. That's interesting. Because like, the melanin

tends stuff, I have heard about it before and I just, I never really looked into it. But the idea kind of makes sense that if you can make your body produce more melanin that would protect yourself. But I didn't realize that it has to be melanin from sun exposure. You want it to write place. Could both things work? Could you do it that way? And with sun exposure, increase in increase both and would it, would it give some sort of a benefit to have a higher level of melanin

that could eventually get to the surface of the skin? Does that make any sense? You're above

has looked at that. It seems like something to look into though. If we know that there's a benefit

“to having melanin. Yeah, it would be interesting. But I think the stuff's new enough that”

they're probably hasn't been a ton of research on it. So what does a pale person do? What does the old Pasty White do? Yeah. The show full Pasty White, like really pale. Yeah. Like my friend, I have a friend. My daughter said he's white and I said she was really little. And I go, yeah, she was no no, he's white like paper. So if you're white like paper, yeah, yeah, you do have to be really careful. You're not going to tan that much. You just don't make that much melanin. Can that

change over time? Can they slowly expose themselves to the sunlight? Like a five minutes a day

and just ramp it up? If it depends on your genetics. If you're like a full on ginger,

like true red head, then you have a type of melanin called field melanin, not you melanin, which is what everybody else has. And field melanin just does not do a good job of serving sunlight. Oh no. So you know hope for ginger? There's no hope for ginger in terms of time exposure. Damn. The hope is just you know avoid that midday sun that's high in UV. Get the morning and like the sunrise and sunset stuff that doesn't have UV in it. Okay, so they can benefit

from sun exposure, but they can't have like full on outdoor sun exposure. Yeah, they're the ones

“you need to be really careful. So for those people sunscreen is recommended. Yeah, or just cover”

up even, I think, better. How many other people are working on this stuff? And is everybody sort of in an agreement with the data, the people that are examining it? I mean, there's a ton of chances coming out, but it's early days for sure. Doesn't it seem crazy that sun in our reaction

to sun is an unknown, or at least poorly studied? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, but it's amazing how many

things in medicine, you know, you dive into the research and you dig down a little and you realize that we're just kind of guessing still on many levels. Like it's early days for a lot of this stuff. Well, certainly for like stuff that they use for anti-depressants. Yeah, but that's yeah. Yeah. Sun, sun exposure is competitive with anti-depressants in terms of the lifting depression. Isn't that nuts? And you know what's way better? Exercise. Yeah, many times better than any

known anti-depressants regular exercise. I mean, exercise is number one for everything, correct? Ginger people with mellit that the peptide here. Mm-hmm. Seeing if you post about it changing their hair color. Interesting. And this one's a little bit early. What? Yeah. Click on that. Well, this is a, yeah. I guess this just takes us to the reddit. It's just going to show you two video here, but there's multiple. Changes is hair color.

Other posts about it. Whoa. And there's a, I was just seeing one.

“What if that would work with people that are old that have like white hair?”

Want to know what that would here? Like a melanin two page says like how it can affect hair color. I don't. I read dirt real quick. This is not the best website to do. This isn't weird that women with red hair are hot and men with red hair are not. It's very, very weird. Because women with red hair are considered very attractive. Yeah, this one's because guys got to spray tan. Okay. But the people that take it that one guy is he like a one of one

where it changes hair color. So that, like I said, so this website click on that. Click on the video. Let's watch a couple of seconds. See what this guy's showing. So this is him before. And this is him now. His eyebrow and his beard colors changed. Also, we clicked on the, it's my not even be him. He could be reporting the video about someone else too. So before I got all gray and my hair stuff, it looks pretty good. Yes. Yeah.

Animal lying by the side of people. Great. Actually used to be ginger. Now I was bullied a lot as a kid because I was ginger. I was weird and I was chubby. That's the winning trio for being sections from this going through a lot of changes up here. Down there, you know, the stuff that happens during purity. So I didn't immediately notice that my hair had got much darker. It was actually all of people asking me what the hell I had done to my hair line, you know.

On this picture, it's probably much clearer. That's a picture of me and my brother. We have the same genetics in regard to skin color and the color of a hair. And as you can see, my hair is not completely different from his views. We have the same skin and the same hair, especially the color. Now this is only from using one vile of melanotan2 in the span of a year, even more than a year.

gingers, it completely changed the color of my hair and my skin and the effects were very strong.

So the effects are permanent. So he still has darker. But what's interesting is in the beginning, he had gray hair. It seems older, obviously. Right. But he had gray, he was showing and his hair is not gray anymore. Right. I mean gray, gray, gray, gray, and ginger. Gray is a loss of melanin. Like melanin's will make your hair dark as well as your skin dark. So he's resupplied his melanin through his hair as well. It seems like that seems kind of nuts. He said one vile for a year,

only you said even all over year. Right. So for a year, so his skin has gotten pale again,

“but his hair is permanently dark. So that's what he used to look like. He had red hairs”

had red beard and he had gray hair. His hair gone gray and now his hair is dark. I kind of know

this guy's full of shit. Yeah, that's the problem. It's like you don't know what you're looking at.

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Oh yeah, okay. You know, they fought hard and they were totally wrong. And we now, you know, we've flipped, but it took a long time and, you know, there was a little blood in the water during that process. Oh yeah, I was in the early days of that and people were just warning me about my cholesterol. What about your cholesterol? Yeah. What's really interesting is during the heart of that, um, when I, you know, I had a lot of meat of my diets mostly meat.

And I went to the doctor and I got all my levels checked and he said, are you on some anti-collestrol medication? And I said, no, why? And he goes, you're very low cholesterol. It's weird. And I go, dude, if you saw my diet, my diet's like mostly meat and eggs and bacon, and that's like a giant

“percentage of my diet. I thought that was really interesting. I think, I mean, yeah, I think the”

evidence is pretty good. Like for keto, I think it's pretty stressality. You know, I think it's pretty much spot on and a lot of this stuff. But, but, so yeah, so that, like the, the ultimate experts, all said, that was going to kill you. Right. You know, atkins back in the day and they were all completely wrong. So, there's, you know, there's a long track record of the pros being wrong. I think a lot of things. But that's, that's a really good example. And people can wrap their

heads around that one, because we now, I think a lot of people understand that low carb really works well for them. I mean, they completely flipped the food pyramid. Right. Which was a beautiful

it's kind of interesting. Because the evidence had already compounded to the fact that,

“listen, for sure, Margarine is not a good thing. It's not a good substitute. But also that all”

these healthy fats that you're getting from milk that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular, we've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol and eggs eggs. You could live off just eggs.

Yeah, probably the perfect food. Yeah. Like eggs are fantastic. I always tell my friends

that are vegans. I was like, listen, man, just get some chickens and they're your pets and they give you free food. It's like I have 16 chickens now and I get eggs every day and these chickens are pets. Like I go, hey, ladies. You know, I feed them. I throw the worms down. They're not afraid of me. They they listen to me. When I open the door, they come running out and they run around the yard. It's like a great relationship. You get free food. You take care of them. You feed them.

And they eat all the bugs in your yard and you get these delicious healthy eggs from them

“with those beautiful oranges. Yeah. So if you're worried about, if it's an ethical thing,”

you don't want animal cruelty and good for you. That's that's a wonderful way to live.

But you are sacrificing your health by not eating pasture-raised eggs. Just get the real ones,

not the bullshit ones, the real ones. Unfortunately, they're tricking people now. Some companies have been exposed for feeding their chickens to America. They feed them curcumin and turmeric. And it makes their eggs a darker, more attractive yoke. I know, right? Well, it's like, it's so screwy. So there's hourly backwards. It is but isn't to America good for you and wouldn't to America that you're getting from those eggs also be good for you. It's like, yeah, I can't hurt.

I mean, right? So it's not like they're getting them food dye. So it's like, yeah, you're getting these darker eggs because people like that and the darker eggs come from turmeric, or turmeric. But, yeah, still, you're getting turmeric, then. Aren't you? It was in that how it works. I mean, that's fine. But I think the chicken, I think like it's the bugs that sometimes help turn them on. Yeah, we get eggs from our neighbor. Like from Vermont,

everybody's right. There's chickens like running around the road everywhere. And yeah, they're delicious. You can tell that they're getting it from the bugs and the greens and yeah. And it's super healthy. I mean, but that that color of things is also why they dye farmers salmon, which is really gross. So salmon are getting that from bugs in particular. Yeah, exactly. Little archer pods.

“Mm-hmm. Yeah, like miniature shrimp kind of. Yeah, that's why they have that wonderful looking”

pink skin that, yeah, orangey pink skin. So in that case, the dye is maybe a little more suspect. Yeah, well, the dye is very suspect because it's like, you know, these farm-raised salmon, they have pale skin because they're eating bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other things that you've stumbled across that turn out to be good for you that people were averse to? I'm still curious about alcohol. You know how everything is flipped on

alcohol. Like, first it was like drink or two a day is good for you. And then suddenly they flipped

a year or two ago and say any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I looked down, I looked at into those studies and it seems like the takeaway really should have been, you know, modern drinking doesn't do much of anything to like maybe it makes it slightly good for you or slightly bad for you. But for like a drink a day or like one to two a day didn't seem to have a whole lot of impact on mortality at all. And also probably reduces a little bit of stress. We got to work a bit of social

anxiety. And that alone is really beneficial. Like, how do you feel like are you happy or you stressed out? Sometimes a drink or two, you're like, ah, fuck it. We're fine. Everything's good. Like, that alone has benefits. Like, what it does to your mood that it's a social lubricant. It'll allow you to like maybe laugh a little bit more, have a little bit more fun. Totally. Which is why I can't give it up. Like, that social environment is a really nice environment

to be in, you know, and if, you know, a couple beers helps make that happen to get things right. I gave it up for about eight months. I completely, I, I problem is I own a comedy club and I was there a lot. And so everybody's like, have a drink, have a drink. Let's do shots. And the next thing you know, you look, I'm just in the jam the next day feeling like shit. I got tired of doing that to myself. And so I said, I'm just going to stop drinking. Not because I'm in alcohol. It wasn't

hard to stop. It was super easy. I just stopped. And then I started feeling way better. I was like, God, why was I drinking for so long? It was just so bad. And then, uh, out to dinner with my wife, had a margarita like eight months later. I'm like, let's have a drink. She wasn't drinking either.

I won't have more than like two drinks. Two drinks is a kind of my map. But two drinks is right.

“Two drinks is like, we, you know, as you don't have to drive. You're not going anywhere. You know,”

if I go to the club, I'm there for hours. Yeah. Completely sober after it's all over. It's like, I know, I wake up in the morning. I don't feel like shit. It doesn't seem to be affecting my workouts. However, if you wear a loop or an or a ring or one of those tracking devices, you will notice in your sleep and you recover. You're not sleeping as well. You don't sleep as well. You don't get the same deep sleep. I can tell. Yeah. Just one glass of wine can fuck you up a little bit. Yeah.

And that, for me, that hidden middle age, like before that wasn't a problem. Um, but now, yeah, like two drinks, I, two, two does seem to be the cut off where, you know, life functions normally still. Yeah. But yeah, the sleep's not as restorative somehow. Somehow. But I wonder if it's the timing of when you're drinking. So I wonder if you have like a glass of wine at dinner at like six o'clock, but you don't go to bed till midnight. I wonder if then your body has a chance to process it,

and then you're okay. Well, Italian style, right? Like, I feel like the Mediterranean lifestyle, they, they got this pretty much nailed down like 2,000 years ago. Right. It seems to work pretty well, which also brings us back to food. Right. Because the way they eat is so, it's so interesting, how thin they are, and yet they mostly carbs. I know. I have something's different there. A lot's different. And we know what it is now. We know that there's a lot of additives and

preservatives, and it's also like they don't use glyphosate, and they have heirloom wheat. So they have wheat that hasn't been optimized to have a higher yield. So it doesn't have as much complex wheat gluten, and there's a lot of issues with our food, unfortunately. And if you eat American bread, you know, the bromine, all the different additives, all the shit that we put in our food, that's so disturbing. Whenever I go to Italy, I'm so angry that when I come back home,

“I can't have food like this. Look, you have to seek it out. You have to go to like certain restaurants”

that only use like Italian flour. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you look at the Mediterranean cultures, and it just works for them. And yeah, like you said, you can't explain it in terms of like macronutrients or anything like that. Like it's something, there's something like synergistic about that lifestyle. I do actually think light is part of it too. Like they got great light there. Yep. They have great light, especially like multi-coast those people. Yeah.

But the other thing is also less stress. They're not as career-focused. They're more family-oriented, very tight-knit family groups, the dinner together. There's a lot of laughing, a lot of drinking wine,

a lot of them smoke cigarettes. You know what they're like? The cigarettes never went out of style over there.

They're all smoking cigarettes. And you're like, how are you guys a fucking healthy? This is weird. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. It'll be interesting on cigarettes if it turns out that in a certain context, they're not that damaging. And then out of that context, they're super damaging.

“I have heard that with polyphenols. I've heard that, and this is a, I think, controversial as well.”

But it's cigarettes taken along with olive oil. And that a lot of these people have high olive oil rich diets in that cigarettes along with olive oil that the olive oil tends to balance out whatever damage that the cigarettes are doing. That is super interesting. Yeah. Which kind of makes sense? And it's going to be, like, everything is going to be something like that. Yeah. It's bad in a certain context, and then it seems to have been okay for people in a different context.

Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other things that you've noticed? Like, I know you've done work on

chocolate, right? A lot of, a lot of work on, yeah. I've, like, my first sort of big magazine story

outside magazine sent me to the Amazon on this like crazy hunt to, uh, that with this German, it was basically a apocalypse now with chocolate, you know. But it's German guys going up or ever into the Amazon to try to find this wild cacao like to work with some of the indigenous groups to harvest wild cacao and make like the world's first wild chocolate. So I went with him, crazy, crazy trip. But, uh, but yeah, I sort of fell in love with cacao on that trip. But it was,

like, we landed, we took a small plane and we were going to land on this river and meet a canoe. That was going to take us up river to meet with these indigenous groups. So we found a runway, right? This isn't the Bolivia and Amazon. But I've been in the Amazon all of, like, four minutes, right? The, the plane drops us off on this flooded runway where, like, it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane. I'm glad to be alive. Um, and then these four guys with guns come

out of this little cabin. Uh, and we're like, we're, uh, this is actually a, uh, landing strip

white dudes doing here? So like, all the cocaine traffic comes through this part of the Amazon.

“And we had just done what people actually have been killed for, which is, you know, like,”

if a couple of white guys drop in there, they assume you're like the A or something. Right. So they're super suspicious. And I, you know, they're speaking Spanish. So I was like, catching every fourth word or something. I'm like, this can't be good because of the guns, but

but anyway, the guy I was with, the German guy, he negotiated with them. And finally they're like,

okay, just give us a landing fee. So we're like, sure. But yeah, so that was, but that was beginning of my chocolate journey. What, so what part of the Amazon worry? Where do you, um, Bolivia, uh, which, you know, you believe that you think of like mountains, La Paz, but they have these lowlands, which are like straight up like, like tropical rainforest. It's called the Benny and it's like truly lawless area. Like huge swaths of jungle, bunch of cattle ranching as well,

and all the drug traffic comes through there from the Andes. So and you went there as just as a journalist. Yeah, so this guy, this German guy, he had been living there for 20 years, and he was

trying to get this, uh, cacao. And he was like, yeah, I'm going to go meet with these groups,

you want to come. And outside of just come to me, and they'd like something else I'd written, and they're like, hey, we're outside magazine. What's the, like, freakiest thing you, you ever wanted to do? Well, you know, we'll send you there and I had like a little kid at the time. So I was like, you know, I'm not going to be going off a 200 foot waterfall in the kayak for you guys, but then this, this is like, you know, heart of dark chocolate thing came up. And I was like,

I could do that. I could be like the comic guy for them. So it's this like ridiculous journey where like everything went wrong, but we did get some really good good chocolate at the end of it. So what is the benefit of wild cacao? It tastes really, really good, like, better than the industrial varieties of cacao that most chocolate's made with, and it's just like kind of a cool story, and it can be used to support those indigenous groups, so that the forest doesn't get

cut down and turned into more like cattle ranch, because cacao grows in the understory of the rainforest. So it's kind of a way to monetize the full rainforest and keep the canopy intact, exactly. What is the benefits of cacao like health was? It's right there with with coffee, you know, tons of polyphenols, a little bit of caffeine, it seems to, you know, be anti-inflammatory, gives you a little boost, makes you happy, but some of the same reasons, and maybe some

different ones as well. And when you say it tastes better, like in what way, like when you try it?

A lot more like aromatics and less bitterness, like basically what happened with cacao is

when it became a global product, the Europeans selected varieties that were high yielding, same thing that happened with tomatoes and everything else. They were high yielding, but they lost some

“of like the great aromatic qualities that like the old Maya cacao had had, and that's what”

gets grown all over the world. Most cacao comes from Africa now, and it's more bitter, less interesting, but way cheaper. So then there's this move that started like 10, 15 years ago of people trying to go back to Latin America to find the like ancient heirloom varieties that had this great flavor and make like better chocolate than it ever been made before. So the most ancient is the stuff in the Amazon, which is where cacao originated, still growing wild. So it's, you know, it's kind of cool

if you can go back to the, you know, primordial days of the main chocolate. I mean, the example of tomatoes is a perfect example, because heirloom tomatoes are sensational. They're so delicious. So much better. There's so much better, and then you have one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper. Yeah, that's what it looks like. That's what it looks like. That is, yeah, so the these pods, and you open up the pod, it's kind of like the size of like

a little nerf flip ball or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. I had no idea. And so chocolate is made from the seeds inside. You got to ferment them, and then roast them, and then you grind them in a chocolate.

“Where can one get heirloom chocolate made from this ancient cacao?”

So the company? Yeah. So the place I send people is capudos, which is online site. They're like the main importer of specialty chocolate. There they are. Is that the people? Yeah. So the capudos has most of the, like, the great wild cacao's available on their website. They just, it's just like retail. Capudos. So is it capudos.com? Yeah. It's from Salt Lake City. Yeah, they've got a cool shop in Salt Lake. Oh, interesting. Preserve, Bolivian rainforests. Yeah, right. Ritual chocolate. Yeah, I've heard

That it's, it's, so that's a green go thing. Everyone thinks it goes back to something like,

like, we're referencing some ancient Maya ceremony. Of course it is. It was a, a white dude in Guatemala. Look at these people. Yeah, there you go. Look at these people. Yeah. It's kind of like ayahuasca with trading wheels. Yeah. They do cacao. Yeah. But like, what, what can come out of a ritual where you take cacao? I mean, you know, same thing that can come out of ritual where you do anything else. Like, you're, you're focusing, you know, it's a mindfulness. You get a little, you know,

you get a little boost from the cacao. But not much. Yeah, it's, it's more about the ritual.

“Or why is cacao, what is a cacao ceremony? Why are there suddenly showing up all over LA?”

Yeah, you can answer that one on your own. So I mean, Jamie, if you can call up Keith Cacao,

there's this kind of Keith. I think he died recently. He's like the classic Gringo Guru with a

big white beard who would, like, have people in Guatemala and he's just invented this cacao ceremony thing. Oh, I'm old. But he's a time at white people. And then everyone else started took it from him. There he is. Well, he looks like this type of guy. I look at him. Big old fucking dirty and pot of cacao. Don't come in a costume. So he started. Okay, poor Keith, he's silly people. So, um, but, but there's like anti-oxidants in it. Like there's other time. Yeah, it's good for you.

It's totally good for you. And, um, yeah, it, you know, gets your heart beating a little faster. There's some happy drugs in there. Um, it's got a tiny bit of cannabis in it. Um, but and it tastes great. So, you know, what's not to like? Anything else? And the other

foods or substances or different things that you found out that were beneficial? Well, I

feel about oysters. I wrote a book about oysters, too. I eat them all the time. Are you, are you,

“are you a fan? I like them. Are they okay? I mean, they're great. Uh, but they're great. But I think”

they're, I think, I think we haven't figured out why. You know, they're like, you know, you're eating like a little living being. Right. So, I think, you know, there's like some chief actor there where the reason people get so excited and feel so good when they eat oysters. It's not because of, like, the nutrients. It's like, there's something else that's in there, you know? Well, isn't there zinc in oysters? There's definitely zinc. And there's, like,

both have an aphrodisiac effect, right? Yeah. So, I think that aphrodisiac thing is, like, it's more about the G, like, this living forest that you're ingesting than the, this is a hippie talk. I said, it does, it does down a little. You know, like, G's going to get, um, G's going to get justified scientifically. It's something. You think? Yeah. Um, so you think you're getting, what's interesting? There's another, uh, friend of mine made an argument for vegans to eat, um, shellfish.

He said, like, if you're eating clams and oysters, they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He said, there's more evidence that plants are conscious than there is that these shellfish are conscious. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, plants are pretty damn smart. So, yeah, weirdly so. Yeah. And muscles and clams and oysters, they're not. They're, they're sort of alive, but they don't feel pain. Yeah. And they just move. And because they move, they open and

“close. We've decided that they're animals. And with oysters, that's literally the only thing”

they can do. Yeah. Like, clams, at least can, you know, take it the tongue and yeah, oysters, they're stuck. They, they, they are just open and close. There's not a whole lot going on there, for sure. Right. But healthy for you. Yeah. Unless you get a bad batch and then die, they are definitely a source of food poisoning. Yeah, for people dying. Yeah. Yeah. They, they kill a few people every year. You know, it's interesting. My wife got food poisoning from oysters once when we were on vacation,

we were in Hawaii and she ate oysters and some kind of the she got it and I didn't, but then my daughter who didn't eat oysters also got the food poisoning, because food poisoning apparently can spread through the air. Interesting. And so it's contagious. Yeah. If you're, I guess if you're like roughing hard enough, you're floughing through the air. I guess, but it was really weird. And that's how we found out that food food poisoning is contagious. And that's one of the reasons why they isolate

people on the run boats when they have food poisoning. Yeah. Because those people could actually spread whatever that is through the air. Mm-hmm. Fucking weird. Yeah. Yeah. But I do, I do love oysters, but I do get nervous when I eat them because every now and then you hear like, Houston man dies from food poisoning. Voice calls call water. Call the water is food poisoning itself is not directly contagious as it refers to an illness caused by eating or drinking contaminated food. However,

the specific viruses or bacteria responsible for the combination are highly contagious and can

So the viruses that come from food poisoning are contagious. It's not like through the air.

Oh, so surface contact. Is that what it is? Oh, I say. So coughing and stuff, injecting. Yeah. And so you may be interested. The airborne confusion that confused food show more. Confused food

poisoning with highly contagious stomach bugs like neurovirus. With the viruses are not airborne.

Their highly contagious can spread through the air in tiny droplets when someone vomit. There it

“is leading to contaminated surfaces or breathing in aerosolized particles. So that's what it is.”

It's the coughs. Yeah. Um, okay. I think we covered it. You think? Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we,

I think you're going to get a lot of interesting spots. Oh, I guess what? I don't read them. So good luck to all those haters shouting into the void. I've long suspected that Son exposure is probably good for you. And then it's really just a matter of like how much and mitigating the damage that you could get if you get burnt. Turns out you're right. Yeah. Uh, it just doesn't make sense that your body produces vitamin D through it. It makes you feel so good. And yet,

“somehow another is bad. I think it's like many things very nuanced. And so I'm really happy that”

you did so much work on it. Thanks. And I'm happy you rode the storm too. The storm's just coming. I'm sure. Especially after this show. But thank you very much. And tell everybody where you book is and how they can get it. Uh, yeah. So whatever their favorite online place, uh, in defense of Sonlight, Amazon, anywhere else. And did you do an audio version of it? Yeah, they let me read it. Yes. We'll see if that was good news or not. Nice. I love it when someone

“reads their own book. It's very important, I think. Me too. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much.”

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