#2533 - Diana Pasulka - Free Transcript | The Joe Rogan Experience

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“>> Of course I know who he is, yeah, and I believe him.”

>> I do too, I mean, he certainly seems believable. >> I'm, you know, people that tell the same story for decades and decades without any variation to it. It's hard, I mean, you know, I don't know what happened, but all the people that were with him, during the time we're talking about for people just listening now, talking about Travis Walton, who was a man who in the 1970s was a logger in Arizona, and he was allegedly, according to him, abducted by aliens.

And the people that he was with saw him get hit by a beam of light, they freaked out, took off. They were driving away, and they were like, we got to go back and get him, we got to go back and get him. They turned around, went back and got him, tried to get him, he was gone. The craft was gone, and he disappeared for five days and then turned up and had this insane story. >> Yeah, and then he's taken those tests, like, polygraph tests, like every year or something like that.

He takes them regularly, and he always passes them.

>> Well, so did the people that were with him. >> Yeah, yeah, and I've seen people interview the people that were with him even just recently.

“And they're like, well, whatever, regardless of what I think about Travis's a person, yeah, that happened.”

>> Yeah, one of the guys actually got in a fist fight with him, the day of the abduction. >> The guy did not like him, like they hated each other, and then, you know, there were young guys, and then he had to testify, and he was like, it happened. >> Yeah, yeah, whatever it was. >> So yeah, I believe him, and his interpretation has changed a lot too through the years.

Not the facts, the facts are all the same, but his interpretation of them, like, you know, where they, because he thought they were pretty maligned, like bad, right? He didn't enjoy being abducted, let's put it that way. But then over the years he said, well, maybe something spiritual happened, but I don't know where he's out right now. I haven't seen a recent interview.

>> There's an interesting one that's out now with him and Boblos are sitting across from each other. >> Wow. >> Yeah, in a diner, it's very weird. And they're sitting there eating pie, talking about, you know, what they think this whole thing is. >> Uh-huh, yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So what's new in the world of all this? Well, a lot, right? So the government has been releasing UFO files since May, 2020. And this is something that a lot of people think is really important.

And, you know, it's a form of disclosure. They're pushing the group that is pushing this and happy that this is happening. They're also wanting the president to come out and say, yeah, there are these things. And I saw a JD Vance on your show, the other day, that was really interesting. He's, of course, I was interested in what he had to say.

You kind of pushed back on his, what he was talking about in terms of calling. I don't want to use that word, the D-word, right? >> D-mans? >> Yeah. >> Why don't you want to use that word?

>> Because I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual.

“And I don't represent my university talking about this, okay?”

So, I mean, seriously, look what happened to him.

So, he basically, you know, was honest and said, yeah, I think that these are, you know, demons.

Well, you know, that was the headline, Joe. But when you actually listened to what he had to say, it was more complicated. And so, I thought that he did a good job of talking about it with you. And if you want, we can talk about that, why he would think that. He used Catholic, I'm Catholic, I do history of Catholicism is part of what I do.

By the way, I'm a professor of religious studies at university. So, yeah, so I've been like looking at that, I've been doing Catholic history in my whole life. So, I started looking into UFO experiences in 2012. And yeah, so, lots of stuff is new, okay? I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation as to why he would say, I think they are demons.

Yeah, I can fill that out. Okay. Okay, or fill that in. All right, so he's coming from the perspective of Catholic theology. So, in Catholic theology, there are generally, if you're looking at anomalous phenomena,

which they do supernatural anomalous phenomena. A lot of weird stuff happens within the history of religions, okay? So, they have categories for understanding this stuff.

And the categories include three different categories, basically, three different types of things, supernatural things,

Which they think can't be explained in that they're like miracles.

You know, someone terminally ill, prays for a saint's intercession,

and then they become healed, and doctors say we can't figure that out.

“That's supernatural, that's a miracle from God, okay?”

That's one category. The other category is the natural. So, things that are within nature, we can explain them, you know, everybody knows what a natural kind of event is. Hurricanes, I think it's like that.

But there are events that cannot be explained, but don't merit supernatural, this supernatural category. And those events, by the way, there's a word for it, and they call it the preternatural, okay? The preternatural.

And this has been a category that Catholics have had since at least the medieval time period.

And because they're trying to figure out, you know, if let's just talk about UFOs, if UFOs are here now, let's likely they've been around for a long time. And so, whatever casics we're seeing in the medieval time period, they had categories for trying to understand it, just like we were trying to have too. And so, they say, the theologians at the time said, like Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas.

He said, okay, the preternatural, these are events that happen, and they're either angelic, like, you know, good things like that, or demonic, which are fallen angels, or other things, because God has created other things other than, you know, he's created the unseen and the scenes, some things that we can't see.

So in the preternatural, there happens to be experiences that people have with things

that seem to be similar to what people talk about when they're talking about

being abducted by UFOs, beings that appear in disappear, beings that can seemingly read your mind. So this would be the theological category that Catholics have called the preternatural.

“And I think that's what JD Vance was trying to get at.”

But why would you call that a demon? Okay, so this is a good question, and that's where I'm going to kind of, like, help. Push back on you, and then you could push back on me again. All right, so the fact is that we don't know, okay, we don't know. So there's analogous experiences that people have.

Now that I've been doing this since 2012, a long time, it is beyond a doubt that there's a pattern match between people who have these experiences and people who have demonic experiences. That's an analogy, but that doesn't prove that they're identical. When you say pattern match, what do you mean?

Yeah, so I'm talking about what people actually experience. So when people have these experiences, what happens to them. They report things like things appearing and disappearing luminous lights. Okay, lights showing up, aerial phenomena. They also report beings, beings that can somehow read their minds.

They also report that sometimes they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds. Okay, these are all things that Catholics who know that history would say, wow, that sounds like this kind of situation. Does that mean it is that situation? There's no, no, we can't say that it is, and that's where your point is relevant.

“Your point is that how do we know that they're demons?”

We don't know that they're demons, but it warrants an investigation, I think, into the similarities. Okay, but when you think about demons, most people think about evil. They think about something that does horrible things to you, possession. Something that causes you to murder people or something that wants to murder you,

or something that wants to steal your soul. That doesn't seem at all like what we're talking about with these UFO experiences. What it seems like is you're encountering something that has a superior intelligence, a superior technology, something that's very different that communicates telepathically, but they don't seem to have vicious intentions.

So I don't understand the distinction. I understand why you would call that a demon. Unless you're just using that in this old school term, because the people that we're experiencing this supposedly, or assumedly, when we're talking about ancient times, and they didn't have words for it and didn't know what they were experiencing,

they would call that a demon. Yeah, okay, so this is a really good comment. And this is something that I agree with you in before 2016. I'd say, yeah, you're right. What changed?

Okay, I did a lot of research. And what I found was that let's take an example, because examples are good, a skinwalker ranch. So there are a lot of people who are associated with looking into UFOs who are well-known to UFO people who work at skinwalker ranch.

Okay, so I learned about skinwalker ranch pretty early on in 2013 or so.

And I learned it from Gary, Gary Nolan.

All right, so he said he was talking to me about it. He said, yeah, a lot of my friends were working out there, and they want me to go out there and do some study of what's going on. There's anomalous phenomena. They think it's associated with UFOs, because you have a foe show up and this and that.

And I said, oh, are you going to go out there? And he said, no, I'm not going out there. And so I was like, well, okay, why? And he said, because it's really negative.

The things that happen to people, they get something called the hitchhiker effect.

And so the hitchhiker effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with a haunted place follows you home. All right, I've heard that before. Yeah, the hitchhiker effect. I think it's called the hitchhiker syndrome or something.

And so I met a lot of people who had this happen to them who had had UFO experiences. So I would say that no, not all UFO experiences are like that. But enough of them are like that for me, not to ever have one.

“And also to associate the preternatural, that's what I started to understand that,”

well, the preternatural is still the best category that we have for looking at this, because not all preternatural phenomena even for Catholics is negative, right? Some of this actually really positive.

But the thing, the problem is that human beings have a hard time figuring out,

like, you know, it could be deceptive. This is another thing we're Gary Nolan comes in. He was on Tucker Carlson, I don't know, like, four years ago or something. And he said, and I've talked to him about this too. Tucker asked him about, well, what do these things, you know, what did they say?

And he goes, oh, they lie. They're deceptive. And he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms of religion, like he's not affiliated with any religion.

“So, you know, when he said they lie, like, what specific examples do you have of them lying?”

Okay, so listen, when we start to look at this type of situation with, you know, these experiences and so forth, what Catholic would do, like, what a Catholic priest say would do, would be to identify if there's deceit happening, to identify if there are negative effects, and, you know, because there's criteria for looking at the preternatural. And so, a lot of things that happen are when you have, you know, these abductions,

which some people view as positive, but some people don't, they don't like these abductions. So, yeah, they'll say things that aren't true and, but what? I don't know, they'll say, like, okay, I'll take an example. I'm not going to out any experiences that I know, but I know a lot. So, at this point, I've had, like, I don't know about a thousand people talk to me about their experiences.

So, one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of which come true, most of which are not true. Okay, that means when you have one or two prophetic messages given to you by an anomalous,

“you know, being or whatnot, and it comes true, you're willing maybe to believe it, right?”

Oh, this is, you know, telling me, this is telling me good information. But then they start not to come true, and then if that person makes this public, that person then is, you know, people associate them with falsehood and deceit, and that's not a positive thing. Okay, but have you taken the consideration that this person might be mentally ill? Of course, of course.

So, yeah, this idea that they're getting all of these, like, whatever it is, visions, I mean, how are they receiving this information? Are they receiving it telepathically, like, when you say prophetic? Yeah, yeah, so they're different, so you asked me what kinds of people, like, what they would say, right? Well, if these things are deceiving them, so they have these prophetic visions, right? How are these visions manifesting themselves in their minds?

Yeah, yeah. Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing an event happen? Okay, so there are a variety of ways in which people receive this type of information, like prophetic information. I would say that some people actually see things, and the beings, like, impart telepathically, like, mind-to-mind transmission, something, this is going to happen, and then they believe it.

Okay, this happens within, like, angel events, like, marion apparitions. It happens to, you know, people, it happens to people in the abductions as well.

And, you know, I mean, that's what happens to them.

They see things, they sometimes have visions in their dreams.

So, there are a variety of ways that people get this information. Right, but let's stop by the visions in their dreams could also just be dreams.

“Like, how can they just make a distinction between just dreams?”

Like, oh, Godzilla was chasing me. I was on a skateboard, I ran into my cousin. We hid in his basement, and then I woke up. Like, that's just a dream. That's not a prophecy. And if they're having those dreams as well as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired by some entity, how are they making the distinction between the two of them if both of them exist at the same time in the same person's mind?

Yeah, yeah. So, within the culture of within our culture, we tend to put dreams in the same category. We say, the dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams are the same, right? They're either bad dreams or good dreams or neutral. Within there are other cultures that distinguish different types of dreams. And within the Western culture, there have been times when people have distinguished different types of dreams.

Like, say, you take the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. You have Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's going to be big. He's a prophet. And he has dreams where he's able to tell the future. And he's able to distinguish between those dreams. So within certain cultures, even cultures today, different religious cultures, they have distinctions.

But the more two in Australia, they have, you know, they talk about the dream time. So we're kind of a culture that puts all dreams in the same category. And granted, that's true. In terms of discussing whether or not people are mentally ill, Travis Walden is not mentally ill. Right, but Travis Walden is not having prophecies.

No, I know, but he's one that doesn't. And there are others who do. I understand, but we got to this place because you were talking about beings that deceive. Yes, so I'm saying that. I'm saying not all of them deceive, but I'm saying that.

I'm trying to explain. I'm trying to ask you. Yeah, yeah. How are they deceiving? Well, I just told you, so they'll be giving people information about the future,

some of which is correct and some of which is not. Okay. So how are they giving them this information? They're giving it to them telepathically or coming to them and a vision and a dream. It's very different things, right?

Yeah, but it could be both depending on the instance.

“Right, but if it's in a dream, how do they know it's coming from this entity and not just a dream?”

That's my point. No, I think that being deceived. Well, a lot of them won't make that distinction. And so that's where you need to. The abductees won't make that distinction.

Because they've never had this happen to them before.

So of course, they're going to think, this is true. But my position is that be careful because we don't know if it's true or if it's not. Right. But I mean, how are you making this distinction between what is just their imagination and them being deceived? This episode is brought to you by Blue Chu.

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I don't know. So how is Gary Nolan saying they lie? Well, he's taking data. And he's saying that they're saying this, you know, they're telling these people this information. And it's wrong information.

And so he's not making, you know, he's not trying to make a big claim.

“He's just basically saying, you know, Tucker asks them why, you know, what kind of things are they saying?”

And he said, well, they're being deceived, right? They say deceitful things. And my point, by the way, getting back to the original. I have been a very frustrating. Good.

No, no, I know you're frustrated. But the original question here is, what is JD van's talking about when he's saying these are demons? And I'm trying to explain that he's referencing this theological category that has been around for a long time. And that is actually quite useful in adjudicating what's going on when people are having these experiences now.

I'm saying that I'm not trying to propose that these are, like, experiences.

Honestly, I wouldn't want them to happen to me. And I don't wish them upon anyone.

“But some people wouldn't want to meet an alien.”

Not the aliens that people seem to be meeting. Which one would you like to meet? Well, I don't know. I mean, hypothetically, like I'm not sure. I'm going to put it out there.

I'm down. If they want to meet me, I'm down. Okay. I'd love to meet one. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not scared. But they don't seem to steal you.

They don't take your way and never bring you back.

They just interact with you. I'm down with that. I mean, we have to distinguish between. Yeah, go for it. Beat an alien.

You don't want that. You wouldn't want that. Look, if you are a person who writes books about aliens. Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat about aliens.

“I write about the religion about aliens.”

Yes. But a lot of the subject matter has to do with extraterrestrial intelligence. Well, whatever it is. Yeah, we don't know what it is. It might not be extraterrestrial.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or it might be here. Something that's of a superior intellect that's been here all along. And it might be something within the category of the preternatural.

Right. Yeah. So my point is that if it is, if it was whatever it is, I, you're right. I've been studying it. And I can say that if those are the aliens, no, I don't want to meet them.

If they're, if they're the ones that like people have come and told me about and said,

I wish this never happened to me.

You know, then no, I don't want to meet them. Right, but that's different people, right? And different people have different tolerances for experiences. And when someone says, I wish this didn't happen to me. It's because they can't handle it.

And whereas other people might be able to handle it. But maybe, but like, look at the things that the fighter pilots, like David Fraver and... They don't seem to have a problem with it. Like, they're, they're, they're not saying I wish this never happened to me. No, but they are saying that this looks pretty dangerous.

I wouldn't want it to, first I, I hope that this, this isn't an enemy technology. Yes. They're like, if that's, or if our enemies have this technology, it's done. It's game over, right? Yeah, yeah. So that's scary.

And if it's not, then it's definitely something that we should take notice of, right?

“So if there, that's what's in our skies.”

And there have been reports of people. There is an Australian report of pilots who have passed away, because of this type of thing, like, they died, and so forth. So I can't actually remember what it is. But it's a, it's a report of an Australian young guy

who was, who encountered something in the sky.

And he was never found again.

He was just, you know, what happened? I don't know. And he disappeared in the sky. Yeah, and there are-- With the jet.

I don't know if he disappeared with the jet. I wish you knew more about this story. I know, I know. Maybe someone could get it up for us, and we can look at it. But it's a really famous, it's a really--

Yeah, it's a really famous Australian report. Here it is. It's 1977, 20 year old Australian pilot, Frederick, Valentine, Valenti. I think it's Valenti. Valenti?

Took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait. Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began. Valenti reported a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights and metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds.

Then came his final chilling words. It's not an aircraft. After that, he vanished completely. This SESNO was never found despite extensive searches and no trace of him was ever recovered.

Radar had detected another object in the area, but never interacted with other flights. To this day, no one knows if Valenti crashed got lost or encountered something far more mysterious. Even decades later, this remains one of aviation's

most baffling disappearances. And the last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who hear them. So this is one guy. I don't know. You can go meet that one, Joe.

And you know what? I think that. Maybe he's like in a cool place right now. All right. Just chilling. I have a good time in another dimension.

Hang in there with these creatures. And they're explaining to him the future of the universe. But you know that. The thing about what I do is I have a lot of information that people impart to me that is that I can't actually

talk about, right? And that sadly that happens to people in. Because they ask you not to? Yeah, they say I need help with this, or this is my experience.

And I don't want it public and so forth. I mean, even without disclosing their name? No, no, I know who they are. And so I've had people who are pilots. Talk to me.

Is this by the way, coffee? This is ice cold coffee. How's it cold?

What?

It's ice cold. I boiled it twice. This coffee. I make it again. I made it today.

It's cold. It's crazy. It's literally ice cold. That's weird. Are you sure?

I hit the button twice.

It definitely didn't work.

I mean, it's crazy cold. It's like cold water. I'll start it over. I don't know. I don't know.

Weird. I got more information from it. I mean, it's aliens. They're deceiving us. They fucking Jamie's cold water.

706 p.m. Valenti contacted the Melbourne Air Traffic Control or Steve Roby reporting and identified aircraft trailing him at about 4,500 feet for the next several minutes. He described a long shiny metallic object with a green light.

The craft appeared to be orbiting above him. It was moving at high speed and playing some sort of game in quotes. His engine became rough idling and coughing. His final words that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.

The transmission ended with 17 seconds of metallic scraping or king sounds then silence. So yeah, so this isn't. So pilots and families of pilots have told me things similar to this. Not as dramatic maybe.

“Can you get another cup to report the cold coffee in this?”

So similar. And so I guess I just, you know, it looks pretty grim. That guy. That one. Yeah.

Yeah. And there's like the movie close encounters of the third kind.

I've always wondered how much of that movie was.

There's so much of that that was based on previous UFO encounters and and even figures like Jackville. Yeah. The French scientist in that movie is based on chalkville. Yes.

And so there's scenes where these pilots show up that from like World War I. You know, and they've been gone forever and other back. And they haven't lost at any time. I've always wondered, like how much of this is based on stories and reports and folklore or whatever the government knew. Yeah.

I think that it's based on stories and things that they like Jack has heard and so forth. And by the way, Jack thinks it's deceptive too. So his idea, he's been, of course, his whole life study in those. And he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception. Yeah.

I think I read that one. Yeah. So, you know, when you do-- I read the bunch of his books. John Kiel.

John Kiel.

“It doesn't have a good idea about these things at all.”

Things that are pretty nasty. Doesn't want them in. You know, the Mothman prophecy. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So he wrote that and that movie is based on his life. And he's, he's down on it. He's a doomer with respect to aliens. How so? What is his perspective?

Okay. I'm going to give it to you right now. All right. Okay. Give it to you right now.

All right. So he calls this-- it reminds me of Catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it. It's called this, basically, the superspectrum. Okay. And it's here with us now, just like you said.

It's around us. But you and I can't see it. But some people do see it. Some people interact with it and have like it breaks into their reality. And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky.

Because all the things that happen to them like men and black show up. He thinks things like the beginning of all religions is basically about someone who had an interface with a pair of being like one of these pair of humans in the superspectrum. So it's kind of like an invisible reality all around us according to John Kiel. John Kiel was a panel of jock valleys.

He's passed away.

But his books are really amazing.

“And if you want to get an idea about the superspectrum in the phenomena,”

you should watch that movie of his called "Mothman Prophecies." It's really good. And so the superspectrum? Yeah. What does he think that is?

So he thinks that it's like a space all around us. It's been here forever. It controls us. It controls humanity because it sends things like he thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks the version Mary operations are part of it.

He thinks ghosts are part of it. So any kind of woo thing is there in the superspectrum. And sometimes some people have the ability to see what's in the superspectrum. And they're he thinks they're cursed. Now he thinks angels are part of the superspectrum.

So he doesn't make any kind of distinction between the good things in it and the bad things. He said they're all bad. If there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad. So again, he started, he was kind of like a Charles Fort type guy.

He started to get a lot of these events and you study them and everything lik...

And over years, he developed a theory that these were nasty things.

“And that they were like even if they appeared good.”

And they were at the beginning of all religions. All religions come from the superspectrum. Obviously not that part about how it's like Catholicism. But religions tend to have theological categories that talk about things like the superspectrum. So what Jacques talks about in his books is sounds very similar to his control mechanism and is very similar to John Kiel's idea.

What seems like just speculating. But it seems like we're dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in. We as human beings operate. Do you want to take this, James? Do you need this?

Okay. That we operate in this world of the senses that we possess. Sight sound, feel, touch, all that, you know, smell. We have these senses for understanding what's around us. But only those.

And it's not capable of detecting everything that is reality. Everything that is the universe. Everything that is from subatomic particles to whatever the fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet. That's all around us all the time.

And so if there is the potential for other realms or other dimensions and these things exist in some sort of a space where they can interact.

And traverse in between these dimensions and interact with us at will whenever we can. We're kind of left in this speculation space where when people have these very novel and unique experiences like Travis Walton and then we are supposed to go, okay. Did that happen? It didn't happen to me. But is he telling the truth?

Okay, maybe he is.

“If he is, let's see if he lies about other things.”

He's been around a long time. Travis has been around for a long time telling that story. He doesn't. Yeah, yeah. If it was a lie and I don't think it is.

But if it was, that's a big lie to have only one. Yeah. Only one crazy cockamame lie from 1970, whatever it was. See, what you're doing is you're, this is part of the criteria for assessing these kinds of events. Okay, it's called, you know, taking time.

Right. Over time, so when an anomalous event happens within, like say Christian culture or whatnot. Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate it.

The cold is all right, but it's like it's, it's crazy.

It's all right. It's called. How does it feel? Yeah. Dude.

It's something's going on. Put your finger in it. Feel how cold it is. It's cold like cold water.

“I understand where I know, and then what happened?”

Oh, yeah. Where have I? You've to hit the start button and make it boil. I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button.

Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button.

Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button.

Oh, I didn't hit the start button.

Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, I didn't hit the start button.

Oh, I didn't hit the start button. Oh, they lied. And they tried to cover up.

“Why would they lie and say that he didn't work there?”

Yeah. Well, probably because he was involved in some shit that they wanted to keep secret. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

There's a lot of weirdness to the bobblers are story. And then when you see some of the footage that was released, particularly after the New York Times story of 2017, the footage that's released mirrors the way he describes this craft operating. Yeah. And so, how would he guess correctly in 1989?

Those are all good points. So, yeah, I told you last time I was on here that Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic Book, told me that he was the real deal. Even though I had people who, you know, Eric Davis, you know, telling me, no, Diana, this guy's no, no.

I believe Tyler. So, everything that you say, I agree with, yeah. I don't know.

I mean, you're always going to have people when you have a fantastic story.

Like Bob was our story.

“You're always going to have people that want to say that the guy's full of shit.”

That there's something wrong he's lying is not true, it's fake. But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person who might know, right? Mm-hmm. So, he's a physicist who studies this and even briefs Congress on. But no.

So, I don't know. I tend to, when Tyler tells me things, and now that everything he said kind of has come true, I believe him, you know, I believe that. It's true. But if Bob was our, is telling the truth, it's so disturbing.

The idea that there's a group of humans that operate in our government, that have information that the general public does not have, and that they're the gatekeepers of this information, and they've determined for whatever reason, that either it's not wise to tell people or it wouldn't benefit them to tell people like whatever it is. I think it's a crime against humanity.

I think if you're a person that knows for a fact that there's something here other than us, that either visits us or exists amongst us or travels here for another dimension, I think you have an obligation to tell people. But what if it's not that? What if it's actually something we've created, and we don't want anybody to know about it,

“and Lizar happened to find out, and that's why we don't want, you know, I mean,”

think about it from the perspective of people who are trying to keep American safe. So just to push back a bit. Okay. Go ahead. You know, what if that's it?

So if that's the case, why would they bring a guy in to tell them, how does this work? Show us how this works, because that was his job. Oh, yeah. They brought him in and said, tell us how this works. And like, and he was like, what are you talking about?

This is ours, it has an American flag sticker on it. Like, don't you know how it works? Why are you asking me how it works? This seems kind of crazy. That's not what you do if you have super advanced technology.

What you do is you bring in people to improve it and make it better. You don't bring in people and say, how does it work? Yeah. Okay, wait. I have a couple of comments about that.

So when I first started, I was aware that people, I wasn't aware as much as I should be.

But I was aware that people in my position, you know, who were basically just doing like academic work on the UFO beliefs, the rising UFO belief, might have people come and give me disinformation. A hundred percent. Yeah. I have the same situation.

Of course you do. Yeah. So we have to be that you're talking about discernment. Like we have to be super discerning about who's, you know, our BS meter has to like be really well working or working well. Okay.

So, but the person who took me out to the desert right with Gary during that time to an alleged crash site, which, you know, Jacques then goes out there. He basically also wants Gary to figure out this debris. And so I'm thinking, we obviously don't know what we have here if he's out, if it's a legit. It could, okay, so here are my comments about what you just told me about Lizard.

Either they're setting up the situation where they're going to have someone l...

And we're saying that publicly, without any kind of like knowledge that it could be disinfo.

And then they have Lizard, who we're going to plant, then they do this like with benefits and stuff. They plant stuff for, yeah, yeah, you know, benefits. The guy who, he had stuff planted is in his computer. Do you not know about him? No.

Oh, it's called Project Beta. This is, this is a book a friend of mine wrote about, I can't remember. Yeah, so.

“Oh, Paul, benefit of his name. Yeah, you should read this because this is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who.”

So benefits believe that he had intercepted communications from alien spacecraft and discovered a secret underground facility called Dolce bass. Dolce. Dolce bass. Dolce. Dolce.

Dolce. Dolce. Dolce. I'd say Dolce. Dolce.

A bass managed by aliens in cooperation with the US government is claims appeared in the popular press in the early 1980s.

According to some sources, benefits was the target of a government disinformation campaign that ultimately led to his psychiatric hospitalization.

Author Greg Valdez proposes that benefits was targeted for his investigation of cattle mutilations. Valdez argues the middle mutilations were a government testing program. Looking at the after effects of radiation from 1967's Project Gas Buggy, which an underground atomic device was detonated. Just 21 miles southwest of Dolce. They were testing the cattle to avoid panicking the public.

Okay, so this. The problem with that story is the counter mutilations. Well, wait a minute. This is like completely not accurate.

“This is just a brief Wikipedia about this probably way more to the story.”

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, Doty. Yeah, Doty, you know, Doty, right? The guy who went, they placed misinformation on his computer. So, that he believed that he was --

They placed it on his computer. Yeah, they placed it on his computer. How, certainly. They went into his house when he wasn't there and put it on there. And what did they put on his computer?

They put on all this information about, like, that he was in touch with these aliens.

So, they basically cultivated his belief that he was in touch with aliens.

They did that purposefully. And Doty. Doty's first name. Oh, gosh, I can't get Doty. No.

He's really famous within ecology because he's a missing folk guy. So, but -- He's a missing folk guy. Yeah, so he -- Yeah, intentionally placing misinformation out into the public about UFOs.

Which is a thing. Is he still alive? Yeah, he's still alive. And that's what he does for sure. Yeah, Richard.

Richard, though. Yeah, he for sure does that. How do you know he does that? What do you mean? What do you mean?

I'm surprised. You don't know. Well, I'm speaking sometimes when I talk. Oh. I'm speaking for the entire public that probably doesn't know what we're talking about.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Okay.

So, Richard Doty has come out and said, this is what he does. And I know people who know him. Like the entire group in, you know, the invisible college people with how. And they all know who he is. Okay.

And kid offered to introduce him to me, by the way. Okay, great. So, and by the way, all of these people are people who work on the. Use to work on the program A tip and so forth. To study UFOs.

But my point, though, here and talking about this was what if Lizard was a person like me and Gary, who was being given information, were credible, right? And he's not so credible. But like, you know, he's, he's this person that's been given information. And placed out there.

So that. And he's just on the edge of credibility. Just so, you know, he's credible. But then he's not credible. So that he could be taken down if necessary.

“That's how they get this information out there.”

Now, who am I talking about? They. So, what I'm trying to say is that what I've observed is that the government. Isn't unified in this whole UFO thing. They're fighting against each other.

I try to stay out of their crosshairs, frankly. What they're doing, though, is that every time somebody comes out and says, you know, here are the new UFO files. I'm studying them so forth. Then they get taken out by like counterintelligence.

So it's like intelligence and counterintelligence. So that is really confusing. The end result is total confusion. And you really have to have an ability like to understand. Like your discernment has to be well developed.

Right. So I believe that. I believe that there is disinformation and deception.

I think that's a great strategy if you want to make something look ridiculous.

You take truth and then you attach a bunch of fantastic ridiculous claims to that truth.

And so that dismisses all of it, right? Because it's all in the same category. And it's all easily debunked. Like, oh, this is the same guy that also said that. So this is nonsense, right?

That's exactly right. Tyler used to say, we hide truth in a circle of confusion. Yeah. Which makes sense if they're trying to... Yeah, that's what they do, right?

I mean, I don't know anymore. Like today, like, Jock at one point many years ago decided that the field of ecology was so confusing that he wanted to go back before the industrial revolution and do UFOs from a long time ago.

And he wrote wonders in this guy. All about that, stopped at, like,

“I think it was like 1860 or something like that.”

Right. And so he did that. And I feel like I've done that too. Like, I started that way, actually. And I wasn't looking for UFOs.

So I saw, you know, so in a sense, I understand that move. When you say you weren't looking for UFOs, what were you looking for?

Well, the first part of my academic career was about looking

at souls from purgatory and Catholic things. Like, you know, what Catholics thought about things that they experience, like, angel contact events. And that's when I started to take a log of these aerial phenomena. I did not know what they were.

And so historically, you can see it all over the place in the records that aren't digitized. So there are a lot of records like people that say, oh, we have, you know, AI has everything of human, all human knowledge.

No.

“Have they never been to an archive, and archive is really old library.”

There's a bunch of stuff there that's not digitized, and that's still human knowledge. And so, what were you looking for? Oh, okay. So back then, this is in my book on purgatory.

I was trying to find out why purgatory was a thing for Catholics for many, many years, and then after the 1960s, people rarely talked about it as much. So, by the way, I'll get a lot of hate from people about this, because Catholics who do do devotions to souls in purgatory

for souls in purgatory will say, no, we still do this Diana. I know that. But the emphasis, like Catholic churches used to have a special place in the church for these devotions. They, we don't have that here.

And so I wanted to know what happened. And so what I did was I spent 10 years going through records and archives all over the place. And I found an answer to that. But I also found a bunch of aerial phenomena

that people didn't know, you know, they were like, looking up this guy to back then. And when they saw something in this guy, they couldn't like place. Well, what is this? They interpreted as like a soul from purgatory.

You know, we need to pray that soul back in the purgatory because, you know, sometimes these things would harass people. They'd come down like orbs and harass people. And they just assumed it was like a bad spirit or something like that. So I took all of this down because I thought it was really strange.

And I didn't, I didn't want to put it in my book. But I wanted to do something with it at some point. So when I, I had not, I didn't believe in UFOs.

I never thought about UFOs.

But I showed the log to a friend after my purgatory book was published. And he said, oh, this looks like Stephen Spielberg films. And I thought he was crazy. So that's how he started studying UFOs. Oh.

Yeah, that's how I got into it. So I was already doing that. Jock was one of the first people I actually wrote a hard letter to sent it through the mail to him. And that's how I met him. So Jock's books with what is interesting is these old stories.

Because the old stories would let go back to 1700s and 1800s. They mirror these UFO encounters.

“Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's what mine's worked it.”

It's this very similar pattern, which is also strange. Because if you think about human beings, the exponential increase in technological ability that we have, just from the 1800s to today, far superior technology. But when you assume that UFOs would also have this exponential increase in their technological ability. Yeah, definitely.

But yet, the stories seem very similar, which is weird, right? Because it was the same kind of craft and the same kind of experiences and the same kind of, like, wouldn't they get better at it? Like, isn't there, don't they have the same ability to improve? They might be better at it.

They might be better at it. We just are not good at ascertaining if they have gotten better at it. So what if, and this is kind of what I've been exploring recently, what if the, you know,

Our growth and technology is pretty amazing?

What if the only way they can actually interface with us in any super meaningful way that's not creepy, right?

What if it's through AI? What if that?

“So if religion was a way for us to communicate with non-human intelligences that kind of evolved in different places, right?”

It's like a technology itself, right? Religion becomes these ways. You know, if you look around and you see, I noticed that you had some cold Buddhist statues out there. All right. So if you look around at religion, what is it that people in religion do?

A lot of them pray in certain ways. Well, like, why are they doing that? What is prayer anyway? Some of the, so you can see that there's something that they're trying to do. They're trying to interact, contact.

There's, like, a contact with these. And so what if AI all of a sudden is a different form of contact? And I'll give you a reason why I think this way, or that I'm speculating about it. When I started to ask the people who should know, like Louis, Zondo, and, you know, before that Tyler and, you know, how put off and people like that,

tell me what best, if you were to describe what it is we're dealing with, what best is the description.

And they would always point me the direction of science fiction.

And they would say, read this, read that. And I was like, science fiction, okay? And I'd read it. And it would inevitably point to, like, a technology that helps enter face, humans with it, so that it's not us interfacing, because perhaps,

“remember you talked about those faculties that, you know, human beings have these faculties for”

the first generation reality, but we can't understand reality in its full reality in this, right? We can't do that because we're constrained by the ways in which we perceive things as the perceptual faculties. What if AI becomes a perceptual faculty for us?

And we're able then to, you know, interact with it. So perhaps it has evolved, and it's helped us evolve too. So that's what I'm trying to say. That was a long answer to your comment. So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us interact with these things.

Can you, Kate? Okay. So as far as what the government knows, and then deception. Yeah.

“Why do you think that they don't disclose all the information?”

My personal opinion? Yeah. Okay. So this is nothing that I can point to, of course, I can't. You know, there's no source for it.

My personal opinion is because this is above government. It's not theirs to disclose. The government can't disclose something that's not theirs to disclose. And what do you mean by that? I mean, that there's probably a group of people that have this information or have parts of the information.

I don't even know if one person has the whole story. It's super compartmentalized. But my intuition is that it's what we know that there are parts of it. They're so highly classified, right? We know that.

And so, yeah, it's like, you know, they call president short timers and so forth. They're not read in, quote unquote, to the program. Right. So I would, what if it's like, it's been around for a long time and the people who know about it have been around for a long time, too. What if that's the case?

So after I, after I published American Cosmic in 2019, I met other people. So, you know, I met people who indicated to me that they just basically wanted me to not write anything else about this stuff. They just were like, why don't you just focus on what you, you know, your, your Catholic stuff and just like don't, don't do this. This episode is brought to you by visible. It's officially summer folks and boy, what a summer we are having.

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And who did that? Yeah, yeah, some people that I admit. So they, their people that are associated with the government in the fact that they're part of intelligence communities. And, you know, so I was interested in what they had to say. And to me, what they didn't tell me anything, so I'm not going to tell any secrets or anything that I don't have them.

But they, they indicated to me that, yeah, this is, this is like nobody's going to know about this. So people like, yeah, so that's, that's what I, that happened after American cosmic. Part of that went into encounters. But not that.

“So what, how do they discuss, express this to you that they don't think that you should be talking about this?”

Well, they, they didn't express it that way. They just said that my time would be better spent looking into other aspects of religion. Did you say why? Of course, I wanted to know. And what did they say to that?

Well, they didn't really say, they didn't really answer that question. But I guess you could say that my experience with them was my answer. My experience with them was that this was something that people weren't going to know about. And that these secrets wouldn't be told. So you're like, they're essentially saying to you, you're wasting your time.

Pretty much. Yeah. We're not going to tell anybody. You're not going to get any more information. What's out there is out there, and that's it.

Yeah. Yeah. What's your opinion, like, when, you know, one of the things I'm, I assume you saw the age of disclosure documentary? Yeah, definitely. One of the things that I thought was really interesting and made sense in the age of disclosure was this thought that if there are these hidden programs,

they have essentially misappropriated funds and lied to Congress in order to fund these things. And all these things are huge crimes.

And if they don't have amnesty, they're never going to disclose.

This is, like, Lou Elisando talked about or all these different people talk about.

“They say, like, the only way you're ever going to get this information is by giving some sort of mass amnesty to all these people that are involved in these programs.”

So that they'd never have to worry about being prosecuted. My problem with that is when I hear something like that, and you're talking about misappropriation of funds. You're talking about lying to Congress. You're talking about enormous amounts of money that are involved in these programs. Where did that money go?

And did that money all go to those programs? Were all those really ethical people involved or did a bunch of people get rich bullshitting about this stuff? And is that why they're calling for amnesty so that they don't have to worry about being prosecuted for stealing money? And that's a lot of this, you know, office skating, all this confusion, a lot of this misinformation is because there's a lot of people that are in deep shit if this gets disclosed. So basically, they're in deep shit if the thing that gets disclosed is that they've been stealing money.

Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete total autonomy, you get an enormous amount of money and you're working on these programs, you know no one knows where this money is going.

“And we have a problem with that already, right?”

Like we have a problem with the Pentagon never passes budgets.

Where the money goes? Hmm. You know, that's like part of the issue. What is this, Jamie? Long hit UFO information at the center of Trump push to free former officials.

Former employees can now share information with arrow or the purse task force without fear of violating agreements. Yes, this is new. Oh, interesting. No one's officially come for this far. Okay.

That's, but look how it says that they're scroll back up. It says without violating agreements. That's not the same thing I'm talking about. It's not exactly, but they have NDAs and it's, right. That's another issue.

But it doesn't, it doesn't exonerate them from lying to Congress or misappropriating funds.

That's part of the problem is that if they have these programs that are hidden and there's no congressional oversight.

There's no, they don't have to be audited if, and all these in any government program that has no oversight.

You're going to have waste and you're probably going to have fraud.

And you're probably going to have a bunch of people that are, you know, essentially beyond reproach. They have so much power and no oversight at all. Like put a little bit over here, put a little bit over there, a little bit over there, a little bit of that. Next, you know, these people are wealthy for some reason that you can't explain. Look, it's going on with Congress, with insider trading,

where people that are making a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And no one can explain why. Yeah, yeah.

“You have to imagine that these people would also be tempted to do that if they were involved in these programs.”

So even if these programs are real, let's say the research, the back engineering research costs a billion dollars.

Make it say it costs three billion. Where's that money going? Where's it all going? Where to go? You know, let's part of the problem with having no oversight.

And a bunch of people that have complete ability to hide anything they're doing, including what they do with the money. Yeah, yeah. And so if they've been doing that for decades, who knows how much fraud is involved. Yeah.

You have to assume, like these are human beings. And human beings, if they have that level of power and that level of secrecy, and no oversight at all. And also they're working with defense contractors. There's a lot of weird shit goes on.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it could be that. Do you think it is? Yes.

Really? Yes. I think that's a factor. Okay, all right.

“I think that's a major factor in this whole thing.”

All right. So, I think that's the, that's the, I think that is probably the reason why you have these calls for amnesty. Because if you, if you're talking about amnesty, like amnesty for what, do you guys do something? Would you do? Miss appropriation of funds lying to Congress.

Okay. So you don't want to be in trouble for misappropriating money, and you don't want to be in trouble for lying to Congress. What if that does that include all the fraud that potentially could have taken place? And not accusing anyone of fraud.

Yeah. I don't know anything. This is pure tin foil hat. Let's just talk shit. Yeah.

Yeah.

So you think it's just basically a big, like almost like a pausing scheme.

I think that has to be an aspect of it because that's an aspect of it. And almost all aspects of government. I hear what you're saying. I guess. Just thinking the problem that was exposed with Doge with the NGOs.

Right. Right. But there's literally billions of dollars gets distributed, and there's no record of it. There's no receipts. A lot of them are that article here.

During the same event, former Air Force Intelligence Officer Grush renewed his allegations that the secret UAP programs had operated outside normal congressional oversight calling it a real fraud. Waste and abuse issue. There it is. And claiming his investigation uncovered slush funds to the tune of billions of dollars per

annum for these activities. The Pentagon has disputed Grush's central claims and arrow has said it's investigations found no evidence. No verified evidence of extraterrestrial technology or credible evidence that the government has secretly recovered or reverse engineered craft of non-human origin. But yet they're.

He has talked about programs that he has been read in on that are back engineering programs. Yeah. Yeah.

“To call it a slush fund, I think is really an interesting term.”

Because that indicates that they're not doing anything. Right. Doesn't necessarily. It could indicate that they are doing something, but they're also profiting wildly off of this something

that they're doing because they don't have any oversight, which is when you get creepy people that have incredible power like that.

That's just normal. Absolutely power corrupts absolutely. Yes. What's more absolute power than you. You have the massive amounts of money.

Yeah. A blank check. And you're also. You're in the fucking super secret top secret group. Yeah.

You're in the club of the people that know the wink and the nod. And you're going into these fucking vaults in the middle of the mountain. And you're looking at an alien spacecraft. And you've got bodies that are in formaldehyde or whatever the fuck they're doing with them. You know, you would think those guys could do whatever the fuck they want.

Yeah. That's right. There's humans. Yeah. And they're men.

Yeah. They're men that are probably very ambitious and wealthy. Yeah. And they want to be more wealthy. And they got all this money coming in.

And they're working on these programs. And then they occasionally show you some stuff. Look, this is what we've discovered. This is what we figured out. This is what we can apply to military technology.

Okay.

So maybe. Okay. So maybe that's it. You were a speculation. All right.

No, I'm just saying.

If you had to look at it from the least charitable perspective.

Yeah. That's probably an aspect of what we're dealing with. And that seemed to me when I watched Age of Disclosure from a cynical perspective. Like, what is this? What is this request for amnesty?

What's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, of amnesty's weird thing to say, you know, like, if your, people get suspicious when you have amnesty. Why do you want amnesty? Yeah.

You're worried about, like, are they really going to prosecute people that have misappropriated funds

“and lied to Congress because they have alien spacecrafts?”

Is that really what Congress are going to do now? They're going to go after these people and say, I look, I know you finally did tell us that we have been visited and that we have these down-daily craftsmen, we're going to put you in jail because you didn't tell us before. And because you lied to Congress and you use these funds to back engineer these

crafts. Yeah. Does that really make sense that they put these people in jail for these top-secret government programs? No.

No. Yeah. I agree. I just think, if you just factor in people. Factor in people and blank checks.

I always say, someone's good.

It's not like these are the most benign altruistic people that they're super charitable and they only want to do the right thing for humanity and they're very comfortable with their meager government salary. Yeah. Yeah.

Probably not, right? Right. Probably, when you think about human nature and people when they have access to money. Especially that kind of money, that's crazy money. All right. So if I can offer my speculation, totally speculative.

Totally. I like this kind of talk. Okay. Okay.

“So remember that I start out not caring about your football, not believing nothing like that.”

Right. Just kind of doing my boring Catholic scholarship stuff, right? Well, yeah. I didn't think so. But geeky stuff.

Right. Okay. Not interested in that scene. All of a sudden become realized that there's this historical continuity, right, in the records. And there's physical evidence.

Yeah. Yeah. There's physical evidence.

Which is important for people to know that it may be if they've never heard this subject before,

and this is the first podcast they've listened to. When we're talking about Gary Nolan and some of the things they've found that these crash sites, we're talking about alloys that you can't make here. Yeah. There's something about them with their layered at an atomic level.

There's some weird shit to them. That's right. And so I try to keep myself autonomous from the uphology narrative, either proposed by the government, by the way, a lot of people are like, it's government sponsored. There's a lot of government sponsored stuff out there that you're getting.

None of my stuff is government sponsored. Like I did this totally autonomously on my own still do completely. You know, I don't have a publicist. You know, I'm not like out there doing it like that. That said, I've met a lot of people, and I've seen a lot of things now since 2012 about the topic.

And so if I were to speculate about it, and let me just describe some of the things that come into my brain, every once in a while, when I'm thinking about it, I'm like, okay. You know how Eric Weinstein talks about, like, he would know the smart people. He would know the physicists who would be on this case, right? He would know these guys because he knows physics. He's super intelligent.

You know, but I don't think he does know them. And part of the reason I say that is because this is in 2014 or so. So long time ago when I'm, you know, when you're doing something for so long, and you're in this community of people, and you can't make stuff up. Like stuff happens, you're like, that really happens.

And one of the things that happened was that I got to see that there were some, you know, libraries associated with the government. That people couldn't get into, you know, it was like, you couldn't go to those. And the people that worked there were the best of the best, like the laser people, the people who knew lasers and who, you know, they were better than anybody at Harvard or our Sanford or anything like that.

That's the best through knowing me, Gary got to go there. So I have a witness, you know, and so because they were cultivating him, they were trying to figure out if he could actually help with, with figuring out what this was. So those things are things that I noted, and I, you know, kept in my file in my brain, right? Okay, well, that's weird.

“There are, I think about people like Harold Malgram, right?”

So, you know, he had been a, he's a person who is wasn't official to advise or to a couple different presidents in the capacity of military.

Super high level clearance and everything like that.

He had been recruited, he was a physicist at Cornell.

He'd been recruited when he was 27. So this happened.

“So people do get taken into these, I don't know what you call him programs or whatnot.”

And they do work, and they have these clearances, and they're hidden. Just like, um, they're hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job titles and so forth. So with people wouldn't think, I see people online now saying, oh, that person doesn't have that clearance because they had this job.

How do you know, like seriously?

How do you know that? Because the government is really good at hiding these kinds of things. So over the years, that was a long time ago when this happened to me 2014. I started to form an idea, you know, and it wasn't just that. It was other types of things that I learned that there's something going on for sure.

And it is what they're saying, but maybe it's not, I don't know what they're reverse engineering. If it's anomalous, you know, from another planet or what it is, I do know that they're doing something. And they've been doing it, and they're probably going to continue to do it. And that I don't think they're going to share. Yeah, and why would there, especially if it affects national defense?

And so yeah, and so part of what's happening now, you know, with a rich people getting into this and trying to get the people in the program to come out.

“Because that's what that looks like when David Grust talks about that.”

I'm thinking they're just trying to get these people in the program to come out. And you know, so they can, they can get to technology, right? And that's not, I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's going to happen. So what do you think happens?

Do you think that they find very talented physicists that are in universities and they have these outreach programs where they look for these people that are very talented. And they recruit them very early on. I think so, I think that they get recruited really young 27 is probably old to get recruited, which probably makes sense. Get them as early as possible before they get into the program before they get involved in any sort of commercial venture or any other company.

So in my second book that I written about it called Encounters, there's a chapter called The Children of the Invisible.

Where I talk about this potential speculative group and it's total speculation. Hmm, have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on, there's a particular upstate university, upstate New York University that has a completely overqualified physics department that's also attached to a hedge fund that does Bernie made off type numbers that don't make any sense at all. No, I haven't seen that one. Yeah, he talks about it and this one particular university, he is keen on this might be something because it doesn't make any sense that this insanely talented physicists are all in this one place and no real research comes out of it.

No real, nothing gets done, but yet they're also attached to this hedge fund that does these insane numbers that don't make any sense at all, which is a great way to just funnel money through and keep these programs running that are completely top secret. And these people are publishing, they don't have anything, these insanely talented physicists are not really getting anything done.

“Yeah, they get fired at my university if they weren't publishing. Right, right, there's something weird about it, he says, and he keeps pointing to this, do you remember that?”

What they don't even look in red in some technologies. Yes, that's it. He's like, if there's something, if there's a there there, that's where it's at. Yeah, which makes sense, like if you had some big time program, like I know a guy. I know a guy who was a professor, so he was teaching at a university, a president, say what he's teaching. He was also a CIA operative, so he would literally be involved in fucking gun fights and then a week later, he would be, you know, they would extract, they'd take people, they do all this crazy CIA super secret operative shit.

A week later, he's teaching university courses. Yeah, like Indiana Jones on steroids, like this guy was like really doing that, which is like, whoa, okay. So if you have this university, well, you have these people that are teaching these classes, like, and they're probably looking for super talented physicists that are coming up to recruit into these programs. But what they're doing as far as they're, you know, air quotes, research that's public is nonsense.

What they're what they're really doing is working on something, probably some...

And that's what Weinstein thinks.

And he thinks that a lot of this stuff that people are seeing in this guy is probably a horse.

“So that's right, so say it's ours and say he's right. Okay, so, but I guess my point is, are you, you know, then shouldn't that be okay, shouldn't we be okay with that?”

Because isn't aren't they, aren't we Americans aren't they like helping us?

Well, if that's the case, yes, certainly, why don't we try to get them to come out and, you know, and like force them out.

Well, we certainly don't want that information to get to China or Russia. If there is some sort of a race to develop a novel propulsion system, like, who wasn't Jamie that was in here that was saying that one of the uses for this technology would be instantaneous delivery systems of nuclear weapons. So, you know, what we're talking about these propulsion systems that essentially they're folding space, folding space and time where they can instead of going from point A to point B, which is like, you know, a thousand light years, instead of doing it in, however much time it would take to travel that through, even if you're going to speed a flight, you go instantaneously, because you're essentially folding space and time and just appearing in this new place.

Well, you could do that with a bomb, and so instead of, like, a missile having to fly to Beijing or Moscow, it instantaneously arrives in detonates, and that this was one of the proposed uses of this technology, which is fucking terrifying. Yeah. That these knuckleheads are taking this incredibly potent technology that these extraterrestrials have used to get here from another planet, and we were like, when I'd be a dope way to deliver a bomb, and then they're working on that. Yeah. But it's also isn't it their responsibility to do that, because if China figures out how to do that, or Russia figures out how to do that, or Iran figures out how to do that, you've got a real problem.

So this was what, remember you asked me those people that I met, like, after American Cosmic is published. All right. So this is pretty much the line they gave me was that Diana. It's best to talk about this stuff about morality and, you know, Christian stuff, and so forth, because look, what we're doing is we're keeping us safe in the United States, and do you really want a non ally to have, you know, an enemy to have this technology? I'm like, well, no, of course not, you know? I mean, so yeah, what can you say to an argument like that? Other than, well, yeah, that would be terrible.

“Well, if I believe them, and if they're being, if it's true, and they're just looking out for the interest of America, 100%. I'm with them. I get it. I understand. I mean, I don't know.”

I knew that's the problem, but I'm never going to point fingers and go fuck those guys. They need to tell us everything.

The problem is you're telling everybody in the world everything that you're telling China, everything, you're telling Russia, everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. And I get that that's why if say the Roswell crash of 1947, if that is legit, and if they really did fly it out to right air force base and, you know, two separate planes, just in case one of them crashed, if that's really the case. And the lore is that Truman met them there and that they disclosed that they have this craft and they have this material. You have so many different people that were out that crash site that have very similar stories.

Yeah. And you also have this very shortly after that, you have technologies emerge. You have fiber optics, transistors, a lot of then weird shit that's attached to them in terms of like the provenance of like how those technologies were evolved and developed. Some sketchy shit involved in that. And the allegation is that this is something that's been reverse engineered.

“Okay, well, you don't want that getting to someone else, right? If we are involved in conflicts with other nations and we most certainly are, why would you got to keep that stuff secret.”

So I get that argument as well. And if so, if extraterrestrial technology is real and that we do have crafts and saying extraterrestrial is just a placeholder word for whatever it is. Interdimensional, whatever it is. Some super advanced non human intelligence created technology. If it does exist. Yeah, I would say from a national security perspective, you've got to keep that under wraps, especially if we don't truly understand it. If we don't truly understand it, we're not really capable of making it.

Yeah. I mean, the way the bizarre describes the craft itself, it was like it was 3D printed. Well, there was no 3D printing in 1989, right? Well, there is no that we do.

That we know of.

So like, you go back to 1947, you're dealing with propeller planes. Okay, propeller planes and then also novel propulsion systems that can instantaneously travel from one place to another.

You know, they can go like, what happened with the tiktack or where they have it on radar going from 50,000 feet down to sea level in less than a second. So that's that's technology that we had in 2004. That doesn't seem likely, right? And it might be the case. But then you go far enough back to like.

“What was the guy's name? Kenneth Arnold. Yeah. Those sightings, which was what? 47. 47? Yeah. Okay. Well, that's the same, like a couple months like. Right. After Roswell, before Roswell, I can't remember.”

So that's there's no way. We didn't have that technology then. There's no way they would have such superior advanced technology that our fighter jets looked like toys. They just whizz past them. Well, I hear that, but, but I don't know if you've seen the images of Kenneth Arnold's plane, but it looks like that German fighter plane. So it looks like exactly like that. Maybe we reverse engineered that and had it. I don't know. I'm just saying that he has a kind of Arnold's plane was only capable of going like, how fast it wasn't that fast.

And this thing, these, these crafts were going way faster. Yeah, this is what he said. He's like, he's got a fucking propeller plane. I did just look up the first turbo jet engine plane was 1941.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But with a using that for fighter jets back in 1947 was, there's them flying around what we're to. In 47, they had fighter jets that had propeller turbo jet. Yeah, but a propeller jet is a propeller. Like if you fly, I've flown in turbo jet propeller planes before and they're pretty dope. Pictures coming up. Oh, okay. So that does look like a jet engine.

“It's definitely something different. Right. Was that, what did the planes look like back then?”

So pull up a fighter jet from 1947. See, those are. Well, wait, the thing that it was a specific plane that looked exactly like what he saw. It was a German plane. Well, that one that Jamie just pulled up was pretty crazy because it's circular. No, I know, but the other one's looked, I mean, literally exactly, they were called the wing planes because they, they looked like weak. I understand, but even that, those right there, those are still propeller planes. That is what Kenneth Arnold says he saw. That's totally different. Yeah. Like whatever the fuck that is. It's crazy.

And he saw that thing skipping across the sky. Okay. Wait a minute. Jamie, if you go into the idea that our best shit. It's H.O. something. Okay. The idea that our best shit is propeller planes, but yet we also have these things with no visible means of propulsion. That are all flying at 1,000 miles an hour or whatever it was, several 1,000 miles an hour. Could have been quiet either. Right. Yeah. It's just weird. If you go back far enough, it doesn't make sense that there's superior technology that's not being utilized ubiquitously across the entire military.

Well, I think that most likely if they, they have something that they want. Okay. So this is again speculation, right?

I don't know. I entertain the, I say 80 years ago. No, I know that. I entertain the possibility that they had some pretty amazing stuff.

“I don't. Okay. I don't. I just don't think that's possible. And that we still have it. And that's what?”

Maybe today. I would say in 2026, 80 years later, with all the technological advancement, maybe there's some crazy shit that they have today. And that bet there is. Like the look of this thing. This is a German bomber. There. That is, yeah. Oh, I'm just like, all right. You got to be real. Is that real? But that's just a dream. You're a witness. No, no. Is that a photograph of those? I am not kidding. Okay. I was trying to just start with that. Yeah. Yeah. So look at that upper left hand corner. It's a secret Nazi UFO.

Yeah. But they had that. Yeah. That's a photograph. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just to be, okay. Well, this is, say up there. It says a Horton. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Playing from 1945. So only three were built.

See, I'm telling you, Joe, this looks exactly like Arnold's. It does. It really does.

Okay.

Thanks.

Jet powered flying wingcraft.

That literally looks exactly like it.

“So if I'm right about that, then you should like listen to my speculation.”

Right. But how fast did this go? Right. I'll see. That's pretty dope.

I've been pushing it to the limit. I can't believe they had something like that. You know, how are the Germans who fucking advanced? I know. And so evil at the same time.

Like, what the hell? Okay. Designed, where is it? 160 miles an hour? 600 miles an hour.

And how fast was Kenneth Arnold's craft able to go? 621 miles an hour. Wow. So, you know, he saw these information. So we were most likely doing something with those.

We. What?

So you mean the United States.

So you think that we had acquired that technology? We did. We acquired it. We were utilizing it. Right.

So Operation Paperclip. We brought over a bunch of these Nazi scientists. And so you think that what he saw was these Nazi crafts. Yeah. So they had.

Yes. I think so. But that doesn't take out a lot of weirdness about it. Because he also had a lot of very strange anomalous experiences. Men and black experiences.

Paranormal experiences. Kenneth Arnold. Yeah. So yeah. And to him, he interpreted this as being religious.

Is there a video of that German thing? The first comment says that should be noted. This is a full scale mockup made for radar testing by North of Grumman for a net Geo documentary. Not the actual HO229.

That picture I put up. Oh, interesting. Is there any. The actual documented photographs of the HO229.

“Um, that's why I'm going to go with if there was only three of them.”

And so we know that jets existed in 41. And so, and then the Nazis had really advanced technology in terms of automobiles, in terms of engineering, rocketry. They were way more advanced than us. Which is why we took all those Nazi scientists from Operation Paperclip.

And ignored their war crimes. So they could work for NASA.

They had an important weapon to that we never talk about.

That we also took a form of propaganda. They had propaganda specific form. Not the kind that you can Google and see Nazi propaganda and stuff like that. Like a really effective form of propaganda. Well, how in what way would they have?

Um, so that's another thing. So, uh, so this is an actual photograph of it. Wow. So if you saw that thing flying through the sky in 1947, you would probably think that's from another planet.

That totally looks like a space. Yeah. I remember, um, after September 11th in 2001, I was a filmy fear factor. And we were in Southern California near.

Oh, what is the base that's out there? Is it Edwards? Um, we're near one of the Air Force bases. And I saw a stealth bomber fly overhead. And it looks like it's from another planet.

It looks so crazy. Yeah. We stopped filming. We were like, dude, what the fuck? It looks like Darth Vader's flying it.

Yeah. You know, it's so weird. Yeah. It doesn't seem like it's ours. Now, I know it is.

And I know they exist. But if I didn't. Right. And I saw that. Yeah.

I saw it in 2001. Maybe they had it in 1999. Maybe they had it in 1989. Maybe they had it in 79. Yep.

Maybe they had something like that. So the article says that we've found that prototype in Germany brought it back. And then this is what Northher potentially made after. So this is a premiering. This is a wing powered by propellers, though.

We didn't want to make those jets. Right. And so they probably put the jets on it later. But fuck that looks alien. Yeah.

So when you think of the Kenneth Arnold sighting and you think of the description that he had, it's very similar to that. Yeah. So that might have been it. Yeah.

Yeah. But that doesn't. That doesn't drive with the TickTack. The TickTack's bananas. Yeah.

It is. Like that. The speed that that thing moved every human being inside of it. If there was a person flying that, they would have got turned into Jello. Yeah.

Just from the G forces. That's right. That's right. Also, there's no material that we have that could survive that kind of speed. Yeah.

I know.

“See, this came out in those, I think this came out in those alien document or one of the dumps.”

Yeah. So this is a lot of people who said that it's Lockheed Martin created that thing. And that is exactly what it looked like, including those weird things at the bottom. Those weird things at the bottom, whatever those little tube, looking things at the bottom of it. That is part of what they described when they said they saw the TickTack.

And there have been people in the air quotes disclosure movement that have said openly that thing was a Lockheed Martin device.

Yeah.

That's right. Okay. So that's the case. What is that?

And how's that thing moving?

And how's it moving that way in 2004? Yeah.

“And if Lockheed Martin has this kind of technology 22 years ago.”

Yeah. Yeah. That baffles me and that defies your imagination just runs wild. So that's my point is that, you know, if this is happening and this has been happening, it's like, it's well, this is something that's kept well guarded.

And even, I don't think even with the disclosure today, I don't think that push is going to be effective. Right. I see what you're saying. So that thing from the disclosure dump from looking at more info right now. Oh, what is that?

The perplexity has to say about it. It's not a hoax. Really?

Or it's certainly a ho-outweight.

Almost certainly a hoax. Oh, how dare you perplexity? But what is perplexity getting this information from? So it says, what the story claims, the document circulating on social media since August of 25 reports, to be a leaked Lockheed Martin CIA flight manual for a craft called the CL-957 Gen2 nickname tick attack, per the claims, Instagram, SkunkWorks Post.

I'm going to make it on Reddit. It says. Okay. Of course, Jason Wilde on X, Reddit Forensic, Breakdown to Canada, YouTube analysis. No providence, nothing in the Freedom of Information Act archives.

The CIA crest database, Black Vault or National Archive References, CL-957, or Orbit Lance, real black programs, OX cart, have blue tactic, blue, all eventually left paper trails. Wrong designation scheme, Lockheed CL, blank blank blank California temporary design numbers are documented. CL-282, CL-1200, Lancer, etc., and CL-957 doesn't appear in any credible listing. Document artifacts, analyst flag, typography, formatting, and classification marking inconsistencies versus real technical orders, plus anacronistic F-22 references and an odd CIA series aircraft phasing.

“That's what I've been found in social media in the world.”

But then it's real. Don't you know that X is the news now? Don't you pay attention? God, Jamie. Sorry.

I want to believe that Lockheed Martin has that.

Well, we always have Travis Walden.

Yeah, but Travis is one guy with one story. Very interesting. There's a lot of them, though. Yeah, 100%. There's a lot of weird stories.

And there's a lot of weird stories of what Travis, the thing is, the real problem is once it becomes iconic, right? Like once there's, once there's a story that gets out there like Betty and Barney Hill. Yeah, yeah. You hear that story and then that story becomes a part of folklore.

That story becomes a part of people's imagination.

“And when you start thinking about grace, you immediately start thinking about Whitley Striber, right?”

You start thinking about Communion, you start thinking about closing counters. So you already have these images in your mind of what these things are supposed to look like. That's right, yeah. And that's a part of the problem, right? Kind of, yeah.

Yeah. That is a part of the problem. I was going to go down another path. Okay. Okay.

So about reverse engineering stuff. Like how does this work? Right. All right. So one of the things that I came to understand was that a couple of people told me about this.

And it was nothing that they intended to tell me, by the way. But I asked. So, you know, Tyler was doing this reverse engineering type of thing. He was trying to find people to help him with this. And he would have what he thought were alleged UFO debris that he had found at various places, like in New Mexico and so forth.

And then what he had to do was he had to get together a group of engineers that could actually reverse engineering. And he would tell them, he wouldn't say, this is a UFO or this is, you know, something found in the desert. No, no. He would say, this is China's or this is Russia's. And we need in order to keep our, you know, dominance or what not.

We need to get this reverse engineering pronto. And that this lie would then motivate these guys. Okay. And that they would reverse engineer this and he would come up with something. Okay.

So later on, I would listen to how and how would give these talks, how put off, by the way, who's one of the people that is interested in UFOs and knows a lot about them. And so he gave this talk at the inaugural soul conference and I was there. And so I was listening to him.

To me it sounded like what he was saying was exactly what Tyler was saying.

That he was saying, we have this, you know, but we don't actually know how to do this, how to back engineer this.

“So we're going to give it to this talented group of people.”

And we're going to tell them that this was already made, but a non ally, like an enemy had it. So basically by telling them this, they would then, like in a sense, do kind of like a trick on their minds. And they would actually reverse engineer it. They would reverse engineer something that he said already existed. So in a sense, it was like, um, not only working with time in a weird way or like kind of like, you know, projecting what was going to be in the future.

Telling them it already had been done. So that made me think, this is like the propaganda that I'm talking about and that you just started to talk about. Like, if we could then on a mass scale tell people that we have something or this is the case.

Maybe there would be a critical, like mental construct.

And people would actually do something, a rise to the occasion or something like that. That could have been propaganda for the space race, right, that could have been like the moon landing stuff. Like, you know, I'm not saying that didn't happen by the way. I'm saying that, you know, part of it was a way to get Americans to win the space race. We had to already believe that we want it, right?

In order to create this stuff, we already have to believe that someone else created it. It's like the five minute mile. Mm-hmm. You see what I'm saying? It's four minutes, right?

Yeah, that. Like, maybe it's a five minute to me. [laughter] The women's five minute mile, right? No, the four minute mile.

That's right. So we already had to believe that it had been done in order to do it. Right, because once someone broke it, then a bunch of people broke it. Yeah, yeah. That's right.

So, oh, and then I was asked why people who are in the government to speak to interagents see like people scientists.

“And so they would have me talk to the scientists like 50 of them, right?”

From various parts of the government.

And basically tell them the story of like American cosmic.

And I was like, okay, I'll do that. Why? You know, they didn't say anything about why. But I started to think maybe this is like a how put-off thing or maybe this is like a Tyler thing. That I'm doing this for them so that their brains can think this is already been done.

We better do this. Mm-hmm. So when you say this sophisticated propaganda that the Nazis have, that we took this technology from them. Like, what do you mean by that? Like, what was their tech?

What was unique about their propaganda? All right. So I don't know exactly, but I do have some ideas. And two of the ideas I have are what I just told you that if you can see the population with images and belief,

“you know, that will impact their belief, you can change it.”

Okay. There's that one. But there's also the one that, you know, Bill Cooper's book. Okay. So in behold to pay a horse, he talks about the quiet weapons.

Where he's talking about basically technology and how technology is going to engineer consent.

And he's talking about this in, I don't know exactly when he wrote that. Engineer consent? Yeah. Engineer consent of the population about certain things. And you do that through utilizing social media.

Well, he's not calling it that. He's calling it quiet weapons. But, you know, back then putting stuff on TV and, you know, creating a narrative that people buy into and believe. And he said that this is going to, you see this by the way, the Arthur C. Clark in his book,

in his short story Childhood's End, or no, it's a book. Where, you know, he's talking about aliens. Where these aliens are engineering humanity through technology, through social media and things like that. Hmm. So this could be what the Nazi propaganda, the weapon is.

That it could be used as a weapon, but it could also be used for good. And it could be used to facilitate technological innovation by telling them that it's already been done. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I was, I ran in college, I was a college runner for track and cross country.

And I had a great team of coaches who would teach a sports psychology. And part of what we would do would be, we would already see us winning. We would already see. And they would also tell us, so and so ran this, you know, you can do this. So in a sense, they were utilizing that on our team.

And it was good. It was, you know, helpful. Hmm. Right. Well, it's, it's very important.

Your mindset, especially when it comes to athletics because there's so much that's involved in competition that's psychological.

Yeah.

Do you think that that also is the case when it comes to technological innovation?

Definitely. You have to believe that it can be done. Yeah. It has been done. And that it helps you figure out the pathway.

I mean, this is what I'm telling you. So with the people that I just talked about, we're talking about Tyler, right? We're talking about then Hal, even though I don't think he'd say that that's what he was doing or talking about, that's what I interpreted his talk to be. And he's talking, you know, he's he has some really interesting ideas about physics and

matter and reality and so forth.

“And then later on, yeah, that's what I think, you know, I think that that works.”

That actually works. It makes sense that it would, that the blocks that people have in their mind about

what is and what is not possible, that if you say not only is it possible, it's already been done.

Yeah. So yeah. So I don't know, like when we start to talk about like the various things that we've been talking about, like, you know, if this is real and that happened. And so forth, maybe that's what they're trying to get us not to talk about the really interesting things.

Like maybe that, you know, that form of what it could be a form of mind control. I understand that, but when it comes to technology that could have military applications, and that we've had all these military conflicts, you would imagine that you would see some of this stuff being utilized. And there's no real evidence that there has been, like there's no evidence from Iraq or Afghanistan

from any of those conflicts that we had something that moves fast in the speed of light and that we have weapons that were indescribable until Nicaragua. So or Venezuela, rather. The Venezuelan continent, where we conflict rather, where we abducted the president, and we came in and incapacitated everybody with some sort of a sound weapon.

Like that all stuff sounds like super science fictiony. And when you realize like that is real, they absolutely did that. So they have had something for a long time that can do things that are beyond our understanding of what we thought was possible. Yeah, yeah. How put off had that crazy story about when he was working for the Bush administration,

where they brought him in with a bunch of other scientists. Yeah, I know about that. Yeah, yeah. And they said, we are going to disclose that there are alien crafts and that we have biological remains of creatures from some other place.

What is the negative and what are the positive impacts of this? And I want you to put a numerical value on each one of them and tell us what the result is. And all of the people that they brought in all had similar conclusions. When they said, how is it going to impact government? How is it going to impact religion?

How is it going to impact society or economy? There is way more negative than there is positive. And so they decided not to disclose. And when he tells that story, just like, God, that tracks. That tracks, like that they would do that.

That they would say, maybe we should tell everybody, but this is going to be the impact. And my belief is that it's a temporary impact. And that society is going to continue to function because it's pragmatic. We're going to have to have an economy. You're going to have to have government.

“You have to have all these things while also knowing we're not alone.”

And maybe that would help dissolve some of the conflicts that we have. Because if we think that we're the only gang in town and then there's another gang over there and we're duking it out with them, if we find out, well, actually there's a gang from another planet. That's the Reagan speech. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. That all the UFO works when we go over. He's telling us something that if we were faced with a threat from another world, how quickly we would put aside our differences. Yep, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm with you. I think that people won't be. They won't go into shock.

But it would temporarily disrupt everything. And that therein lies the problem.

The problem is the collapse of the economy, global trust in government.

If the government really isn't, the people that are in control of the really is something far above and beyond the human government that has some sort of an influence on world events, that's real. It's tough to vote in a congressman that says they're going to enact change when we're being observed by extraterrestrial life that can read your mind. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if I agree with you on that.

“I think that it's all, I think people will be all right.”

I mean, we're having the government say today, right? I mean, JD Vance on your podcast just said, they're demons, right? That's true. But I mean, JD Vance doesn't know. Aren't we all fucked if he just thinks that they're demons?

Like, what? No, I think he doesn't seem. I think he says it's too busy to really dig into the UFO stuff, which I kind of get and understand, but also don't. because if that was obviously I'm never going to be vice president, but if I was, that'll be like the first thing I would look into as soon as I got into my desk I'd be like where they have everything I'm going there I'm going there and say you have to show me and I'll keep my mouth shut, but I need to know like you need to show me we need to know like what do we I need to know what position we're at in order to move forward I don't know I need to know where we operating from are we operating from a position where human beings are the advanced

Dominant intellect on earth or not

because if it's or not that changes everything but you're rare you're with a rare person who like most people in the United States believe in God like there are more than 80% of people who believe in God

they think God runs it right God is a non-human intelligence but that doesn't they they're not mutually exclusive

“like God could exist and also intelligent life from elsewhere could also exist that's right and that's why most people won't”

be shocked or upset I don't think that there's going to be a level of anxiety that people predict honestly I don't well hasn't the Vatican even addressed this and saying that if alien life exists that God could have created life other places of course yeah which really doesn't make sense yeah yeah so they're not going to be upset and there are a lot of Catholics in the United States so I mean people in the United States or even all over the world there are countries like in Brazil where they're okay with you know if they're if they're aliens up there it's not going to change

they're probably watching us and nobody's going to be upset about that they're still going to vote for their presidents and their Congress people and so forth yeah so you're like the only one here that I not the only one but you're representing a small minority of people in my opinion how so because you think that that it's going to change everything you think that it might actually change your world view but it's not going to change the 80% out there it's not going to change their world view

“I think that's a guess mine's a guess as well it's a guess of how it's going to affect the world”

I would assume it affects it in a pretty spectacular way if we have undeniable proof that there is some superior intelligence that's interacting with us and perhaps even controlling events and preventing certain things from happening like when they go over nuclear bases and stop weapons functions this is a religious worldview that's a well that's the religious worldview you're you're identifying right there how is that a religious worldview that there's intelligent life form from another planet that comes down

on another planet but like you know there's an intelligence intervention right we don't know if it's real planets that's a guess right so most religions are assuming that there are other there are guys and goddesses or there are god and there are angels and demons and things like that they're you know non-human intelligence so they already think this and this is already a world view

“well that's what gets weird when you get into the really old scripts like the book of Enoch”

that's right that you know Anna Paulina Luna she's the one to turn murder and I've listened to the audiobook or the book of Enoch twice now and every time I listen to him like what the fuck were they talking yeah yeah what is what are the watchers who came down and and bred with the daughters of man and created the Nephilim like what is what is all this stuff yeah that informs a lot of Christian doctrine well not really not today but because it's not included in the canon but what if it was

right it's included in the canon but just not in reference to the book of Enoch I mean if the book of Enoch's not in the canon but Enoch is referenced in the Bible absolutely yeah which is kind of nuts that you don't get the book of Enoch but you have the world view of Enoch a lot of Christians still believe in that and it's I would say that I don't know like more than 50

percent so even though so yes more than 50 percent believe that believe in the world view of Enoch

that we're that there are watchers in fallen angels and things like that that you know this is the supernatural world view and it's alive and well Paul she believes in it right she believes that there are she yeah Anna Plina oh yeah so I've heard her say that she thinks they're interdimensional beings also so yeah sense the creator natural right um imagine a world imagine how different religion would be if the book of Enoch was regularly taught in Sunday at church that they would

tell you that story along with Moses and along with all the other stories that they would tell you about the book of Enoch and everybody in the church we said they're like what what are you talking about who are the watchers like what are they they came down and and lay with the daughters of man what yeah like this is this was a part of an ancient story and the real question is when whenever

I read these biblical stories I'm always trying to I know that they're writing things down

first of all they're writing it in ancient Hebrew and then it's transcribed and translated into Latin and Greek and all these other languages and a lot has lost in that translation a lot a lot like it's interpreted very weird because of just the just the way languages are formed just the

Way they they structure sentences so it like a lot of the context of it is we...

numbers double letters double as numbers so there's a lot of coded stuff right so there's the numerical value to the words which is really weird there are churches though that do teach that there are some religious traditions I agree with you that this tradition is not well taught to Christians or Jewish people are you know today but that doesn't mean that the Christians aren't going to go out and learn for themselves they do they do learn for themselves and they actually have communities that

know about this so lots do well certainly the Ethiopians yeah of course right which is weird that the Ethiopian Bible has that in it they have the book of Enoc as a part of the Ethiopian Bible

yeah well it's one is one of the first Bibles it's one of the first so Ethiopian Christianity is like

one of the oldest forms of continuous Christianity but there's no new Israeli real translation

“of it that's available in English right isn't that the case with the Ethiopian Bible?”

well let's see yeah I guess you're right I don't actually know about that I mean you can't look it up and people can look up this stuff and there are people who write about it like my field people write about it right your field but I mean the average Christian is not really aware of what's in the book of Enoc yeah you're right you're right so that's where like a basic studies religion class will like where you know if you take my class I'll make you aware of it I'll make

you aware of the different forms of Christianity right the ones before the Roman Catholicism

and the earliest forms of Christianity I'll also make you aware of the supernatural world view I feel like it's all there was something that happened there there's real events and I just don't know if the stories are accurate I don't know if the the written version of these stories accurately relays the real events that took place and what they're trying to say especially when in regards to the watchers and the Nephilim and all that stuff and the giants

there's just so many weird parts of those stories that we're just supposed to just accept like what is that that sounds to me like genetic engineering is what it sounds like it sounds like

a primitive translation of or explanation of what genetic engineering of human beings was

“that's what it sounds like you know that belief was still around after Jesus was crucified and”

within the early church because Paul writes about it in his letters what is he right about okay so you know the the tradition of women wearing veils and church no yeah so if you go to a mass today like a Catholic mass some women will be wearing veils and if you go to a traditionalist mass mass they will be wearing veils and the reason that Paul gave was because of the angels that were attracted to them in church so you have to be careful women when you go to church the

angels might be there who might be attracted to you he doesn't say that specifically but that's part of the reason why so the early Christian church was that they were immersed in that world view that world view is is still around so the women wore veils so that the watchers wouldn't find

“them attracted yeah whoa yeah and someone is still wear veils that's crazy so yeah a lot of”

that tradition is still here such as the residual interpretation of whatever the original story the original event was that's right do you think humans were genetically engineered I'm you know I'm Catholic right I'm Christian okay so what do you think happened I mean of course my views have changed so before I got into the UFO thing I was a you know I went to Catholic church I went to daily mass sometimes I was Christian I've been Christians since I was 11 I was raised

by secular parents they were not how did you get involved in Christianity I was converted through on Easter by the way on good Friday by watching and I didn't try to watch it was on TV my parents had put it on and I was 11 and I was doing Easter eggs and they were playing Franco Zephyrelli's Jesus Nazareth and I started to watch it now I didn't know that he was crucified at the end because I was just you know a kid I wasn't raised religious at all and my dad came

for a Catholic family my mother came for a Jewish family or she's Jewish and so they didn't practice religion total rationalists so I was watching it and it was when the scene where the woman the adulterous woman is just about to be stoned to death by these guys right there's big group and they're just about to throw the stones and Jesus gives down to start trying something I was

What is he gonna do and he basically says those of you with without sin throw...

and I was like that was brilliant right and so then I was hooked I was hooked and at the end he was

“crucified I was devastated and so I told my mother I said mom you have to buy me a Bible like”

you have to so the next day we went out she doesn't know what to look for so we go to this store and the the person helped us out and they gave us a King James version of the Bible red letter I said I want everything that Jesus said I want to know all that he said and I was hooked on it so I read this thing I read the whole thing and at that point I recognized I had to grow up and I had to read the original sources because that was hard to read it didn't make sense

and I was like this doesn't make sense to me what he said was beautiful and I was hooked

I became a Christian I didn't make sense to the whole Bible the whole Bible when you start to read it from beginning to end you know there are all those things that you just don't understand there are two creation stories in Genesis and you're like well why are there there too and you know there are all those names and languages and you're like what you get to the book of Leviticus and it has all these rules and regulations and you're like you just don't understand it and I knew that at that point I needed to

“learn the original languages and how they were put together that's why decided to become a professor”

of religion and so I became a Christian and I was a born again Christian and then when it came

time to go to high school I asked my father he had connections to Catholics if I could go to Catholic high school luckily I went to a sister's emergency high school where they were beautiful people and I learned Catholicism and action like actually helping people and stuff and and I became Catholic and so I've been Catholic my whole life after that. Did your parents ever join you? My dad yeah he's passed away he died pretty young but yeah he he he was brought back to religion

because of me wow yeah yeah it was really pretty intense but you know that's just how it was but anyway so that I became very interested obviously yeah I thought this is super important we have to know about how this happened just like you said how do I know this really happened and that's when I became aware of the like the Ethiopian church the earliest texts for Christians and and I don't think Christian churches do a good job of laying this information to Christians frankly

I think that they don't do the best job and that they could do it better and so I now teach New Testament at my university and you know I I do my best to kind of convey what what these people were experiencing and and the kinds of people still experience those things today so yeah so that's how I became that's how I became Christian. Interesting so when I said do you think that human beings were genetically engineered your response was I'm Catholic yeah unless you're talking about

God doing that genetically so you think that the Bible is a absolute literal translation of real events so what do you think it is it's a okay so Catholics don't believe in biblical literalism which is that you can't because there are so many parts of the Bible that contradict so you'd be you know that would be a contradiction but they believe that it is the inspired word of God written by people written by men and so there's fallibility in terms of the not in morals and the conveying of

the spirit of Christianity but you know so so yeah that's what they believe so in terms of the genetic engineering do I I believe that Enoch the book of Enoch it conveys the spirit of truth absolutely

“do I believe that there are that's why I believe that if the according listen when I started to study”

UFOs I was not expecting at all what I found and what I found reinforced my own religion my own Catholic upbringing were self chosen up bringing how did it reinforce it okay so that's that's where I was actually so I was pretty secular even as a Christian especially after I went to graduate school so I went to graduate school studied all of this stuff and then became a professor and I believed in the spirit of the book I believed in the spirit of Christianity believed

is true therefore I taught it to my kids I went to church I sometimes go to mass you know they have daily mass and I home school my kids in a Catholic home school group for the most part until they needed some out sources in math and so but it wasn't until I became I studied UFOs that

I recognized that the book of Enoch is alive and well today that's what I rec...

ecology and I encountered stuff that I thought looked pretty dodgy and I was like this looks like

“the preternational and I so that's what I'm saying it supercharged my Christianity to the point”

where I went back and I re-read all of that stuff again and I recognized that whatever they're dealing with now when people are having these experiences so forth not all of them but a good many of them are you can you know look to me similar in in kind I don't say they're identical but they look similar and therefore if that's the case then you know I need to be a different type of believer I need to be a much more believing believer yeah I can't be secular about my Christianity

I actually have to practice it live it be prepared for what comes next kind of that lifestyle that's what that's the kind of lifestyle is it in any way frustrating that you have studied so much of these encounters in these experiences but you don't have a personal encounter or personal experience with these things well that's an assumption that you have that you don't have one yeah do you have one well maybe I don't feel comfortable talking about it but yeah I have some

experiences but don't you feel comfortable talking about it you really this is part of what you do for a living you you talk about other people's encounters why would you not feel comfortable talking about your encounters well because that is I mean I'm not sure what to think of them that's why listen this is not what motivated me to study you follow your those kinds of things

“when I think about these encounters before you studied you followed me when I look back”

I say yes I had those encounters yeah when did you first have an encounter I didn't interpret them

as UFOs though well my I did have a family member who had an experience with what looks like a UFO and it was documented actually found a documentation of it from the time in a newspaper other people had seen it too so I live in a place that is called that has UFOs so I grew up near full sunlight and that's there are lots of UFOs around that area and so he had a this is of course a long time ago when we he was not interested in UFOs I wasn't and he was he was young writing

his bike up a hill and he saw it and and it kind of it it was a classic UFO thing turned around looked at him and he was like black and and sped down the hill screaming came into the drive way my parents went out there and now my parents complete rationalists and they see it too and they they saw it and it just kind of like hovered and it was like a giant orb orange orb and it hovered for a while and that it just went up in the sky and disappeared and so they had this this is before

I went to college every there was a very long time ago and and then later when I started to study

“this I had family members tell me yeah I remember that and I was like yeah yeah tell me about that”

and so they reiterated that this is what happened and they wanted to kind of get it on the record and then one of them found the documentation of a newspaper at the time and sent it to me so I have that data so there's been that but that's kind of a normal thing like people have those experiences and you know they nothing but you said that you had experiences that you're not necessarily comfortable and talk I wouldn't I didn't have a UFO experience like I haven't had like UFO experiences like that

what have you had? well I have the very normal experience of a person who is a believing Christian and if you have if you're that kind of person you will have experiences where you feel like this is you know there's there's more to life than kind of what you're taught at school so that's the kind of experience that I'm talking about people in the book of acts can you elaborate because you mean by that yeah what experiences have you had that made you feel that way? oh I've had life long

experiences like that but well just that certain of things happen at the right time the right moment and you know I mean lots of people have these experiences if you read about Mel Gibson doing

his movies you know the passion of the Christ he talks about very powerful things that happened on the

set so things like this things that you you know that they're not probable like Jim Kavizel being hit by lightning when he's on the cross and you know things like that that happened that's you're like wow okay I mean you could say that's a coincidence and you know you can

Look at it from that perspective but it's all outlined in the book of acts in...

if you read that book it talks about these very these very significant experiences to the people

but the reason I don't talk about them is because if you talk about them to people who don't have those experiences they will just they let's just a coincidence or that's that so you're like yeah that's one way to look at it so you can't convey it's like a it's a question of this quality it's a it's a question of your own perception of it right but as an educator don't you think perhaps if you have had these experiences you have a responsibility to try to relay that

information to people no no no because I'm I teach religious studies so in religious studies you'll

see this in my book too you're teaching about the actual book the the social context the

historical context you're not actually advocating for a belief system but relaying your personal experiences not advocating for a belief system it would be why because isn't it belief isn't an experience open to interpretation so how would you be relaying your belief systems by having an experience that you detail in an honest way that's open to interpretation I would do that if I was in a situation where that kind of experience was helpful to people and I have done that before

like I've been on podcasts where you know where they would say their Christians and you know we're

talking about Christian life and so forth and I would explain my experiences and we would talk

about that and people would you know they would talk about their experiences but when you're at a secular university that's not what you do you don't do that when I'm writing as a scholar of religion you're not that's not what it's about it's not about whether or not these experiences are real what it is about is about how this is shaping culture now what I meant when I asked you that question

“I want to I'm talking about UFO abductions encountering beings and entities that's what I'm talking”

about I'm like have you like one of those experiences and if not no I don't you wish you did um no it doesn't look like I wish that I did when I look at what happens to people who have had abductions and these experiences it looks traumatic Joe I don't know I don't want that interesting like life is already traumatic enough you know right I get what you're saying when you hear about people that supposedly they they have this ritualistic practice where they

manifest orbs and they they meditate and what do you think that is yeah so I do believe that they're doing something a friend of mine did it recently and she's she's very rational okay she's a very rational person very intelligent person and she wants me to do it with her she's like you got a comment trying this out and we're trying to set a date where she's like I'll explain

“to you how I did it and how you do it I was like alright I believe you like I've been friends with”

her for decades she's super rational very normal person very intelligent not crazy in any way shape or form and she's like it's gonna sound fucking nuts but if you do this and if you do it and you give it enough time they will show up is this with like Steven Greer is it like C5 with she doesn't do she's she's not in any way associated with that guy but she was taught how to do it by someone else and she said she went on some fucking thing where they all did it together

and and then she's done it privately alone and she said you could do it yeah yeah yeah she's gonna she said it's gonna sound fucking insane but it's real okay what do you think about that alright well I believe that it happens what do you think is happening I'm not sure what's happening but I don't think I would do it why not because I I believe in cognitive sovereignty like I believe that we should be sovereign like our you know not have something interacting with us

“yeah beyond our and you know so yeah that's why I wouldn't do it but it does it take away your”

sovereignty to communicate with something else yeah a lot of times it does so one of the things that I noticed when I started to talk to people and I don't want to like you know tell you not to do it but I'm gonna do it okay yeah I'm gonna talk about it alright I wouldn't do it yeah so one of the things I noticed was a lot of people in the beginning when I was doing this

Research would and still today would say Diana you can contact these beings o...

do it and you have to give them permission and I was like what are you talking about it yeah that's

“right I'm like I'm not that the vampire in yeah yeah you have to give them permission yeah and and”

that's no weird I wonder if that's where that comes from alright well that's what I'm telling you right like the vampire lore is that you have to invite them in that's right but that's the demonic lore too really yeah so I mean if you're gonna do that that's you're inviting them in oh boy so now I'm psyched in guessing it I'm just saying there's Jane would you do it I mean I almost tried I think I tried it daily but like you said my own head what do you think about people that have

psychedelic experiences were they encounter entities I think they're encountering entities yeah so

I think psychedelics is the quick way to open up that spiritual part of your brain but it's a

dangerous way well look okay I'm not I don't want to go down there so I've had I've been on I've

“gone down this road before but yeah I think why don't you like to go down that road because I guess”

there's there's part of your brain actually we talked about this last time I was on here we talked about the spiritual sense remember we talked about the pineal gland stuff like that okay so I learned a lot about it since then all right and what I I it's a real thing okay and again the Christian churches don't do a good job of conveying that this is really important for Christians to know about and not just Christians but religious people all over the world this is what they're doing

when they're doing those protocols of religion they're trying to cultivate the spiritual sense why

because the human being is oriented toward the sacred like we're a very specific type of thing and we're oriented toward the sacred the spiritual sense is what helps us connect to it we could you know utilize the spiritual sense through certain things fasting living a certain way you know and not sort of thing it's really important by the way and digital culture like is messy with that by the way this spiritual sense okay so psychedelics are one way to like hijack into it

and you know open up that world so it's a quick way but it's it's I want to call it the ideal way although in some religions like the Church of Native Americans that's their way of doing it that's their way of doing it all right and they have rituals to do it with you know sacred yeah so to do it casually and without you know without attention is probably might be dangerous I've done I've utilized mushrooms when I was young um I like that word utilized yeah

you know when I did it though like I was really young so very official I was I was very young and I prayed before I did it my friend and I and we had a really you know good experiences so forth

“but I think I was just lucky okay I think I was lucky why do you think that because I've”

had friends you've had really terrible experiences right and so I think that this best just not to unless you're like born into that culture that does that and that's part of your religion one of the things that seems to be the case in a lot of the people that have had these bad experiences is that they try to fight it and that they they try to battle with the experience they try to take control of it the ego gets in the way they they want to regain

some sort of a control over their consciousness and and they fight with it and they have bad trips you know there's moments when you do psychedelics where you realize I just got a lot of go I just got to realize that I'm not in control of this at all and just let it go and if some people can let it go and some people can't I've seen people struggle with it I've seen people that can't let it go and they fight with it and they have really bad trips and it's very scary to

watch but I think that's the root of it I think the root of it is you're battling with something that you can't beat and you just have to just let go and just take it in here we go just go on the ride and some people can't go on the ride like no and they're grabbing the walls they're grabbing vines and they're trying to stop their progression they don't want to do it like it's too scary for them they don't want to let go they don't want to they don't want to

erode their belief system they don't want to expand their view of the world there's just two it's too scary they have a problem with fear they have a problem with the unknown they have a problem with having this very isolated view of reality and having that shattered in front of them and they

Don't feel comfortable with that and they they tried to they tried to resist ...

going on maybe you have to understand like what it is and you have to understand that you're not in

control and you've got to let it go you've got to go for the ride but that's also me saying that and my psyche is very different than another person psyche and there's this different than yours and everyone everyone's different everyone has different experiences different psychological vulnerabilities different you know right yeah yeah yeah yeah we were talking before the podcast about the shroud of turn oh yeah yeah and yeah and we by the way we brought that up last time

here and that what happened by accident remember yes yeah yeah so a lot of people have been talking about that since we talked about it yeah you were saying something though that the piece that they used for carbon dating that this is a piece that had been repaired but I saw there's a lot of dispute about that online and yeah a lot of people say that that there's just some sort of a apologetic excuse for why the numbers don't match up correctly but then I've also seen things that

say that the pollen that is on the fibers matches up with the exact kind of plants that existed in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and that that all aligns and that further testing needs to be done to determine the actual date of it that that aside there's still no explanation for why

that image exists and how it was created yeah and I've never seen anyone explain in any way

that makes any sense how that could have been forged by someone how it could have been a forgery from someone that long ago that they could figure it out also they could make it a reverse negative

“image so the only way you see it is through when you look at it in an negative I know it's pretty”

crazy yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense to me yeah yeah whatever it is is it's really weird it is totally weird and there are people who there is a guy who's a doctor of like blood he metologist and he's he seems to have no he's he's not religious or he's not like you know out there advocating for religion and he just happened to study it he studied the blood and again he was like and the injuries you know because he can study the injuries and identify

and they match up and I mean I'm not an expert on the shroud but believe me every expert that's out there since I was on your podcast few years ago have they've reached out to me and they're like tell Joe to get me on and so forth and um do you know someone that's a real good credible expert yeah I know someone well that man I think has a good video out there check

“him out I don't know his name but he's I mean you should be able to find if you do a search yes”

it would be him uh new study claims blood stains on the shroud of turn consistent with torture of Christ that's not he doesn't have an Italian name one I know but I mean that could be too I mean he could be out there doing that um the guy that that we found I can send you the link but he's American guy and he's just you know he doesn't have a fancy video or anything like that it's just but there's another guy who's Catholic called um his name is father Dalton and he's this is his

expertise he knows about this now he's theological but he actually does have studies and so forth

and what is what is unique about his perspective so his perspective is that first you have

to understand the Catholic Church is very careful about what they put their you know what they say is true and not true it takes them forever to say something's a miracle and often when they identify something as being miraculous they have a huge a team of people often who are the best at what they do they and they might not be Catholic okay they could be atheist and so forth so this was stated at Duke University the shroud of turn in the 1980s and I happened to know a priest who was

a graduate student there and PhD program and he witnessed the whole study um so father Dalton would be a person who is Catholic obviously he is a priest however he is not going to say you know he's going to give you the facts about each of the studies and he's going to talk specifically about

“what we don't know what we don't know about what you know might be as a Catholic you have to say”

this is not we don't know about that like yeah you're right it could be this or that same thing

With the Guadalupe Toma right so you know a lot of people say it was created ...

on this you know about that right so the the Guadalupe image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico City that

was miraculous said to be miraculous they put well there are some you know things that have been

“added later so I think the shroud is like that also but there and there's been a lot of studies”

by what's so interesting about this Guadalupe thing so this is a this is a Toma which is a cloak it's from this is from the 1500s so this is that an image that allegedly according to devotional Catholicism this image was imparted onto this cloak and the cloak was worn by a guide by the

way I think I'm not sure but you know Mel Gibson's icon like he I think that might be the part of

this I'm not entirely sure but so here you have something that is unexplainable a part of it is explainable because after the image was put on people had painted over it like I don't know a hundred years later and subsequently you know just to upkeep it I think the angel was added a couple things were added later but it's it's not as anomalous as the shroud of this painting okay so this appears to be a painting but underneath there's an image and the image is is the virgin Mary herself

without her cloak without the angel and without the sun around her and this image is allegedly

had been put on this guy's cloak one Diego's cloak in the 1500s so he was he had she wanted a basilica

“which by the way she's in right now and that's what she asked for the bishop at the time said I don't”

believe you want Diego you have to show me proof so he went back to the place where he had seen her and she said go up and get a bunch of flowers and put them in this cloak of yours and then bring them to the bishop you know they're out of season they don't grow in Mexico so he did he went he got the flowers he went back to the bishop in Mexico City and he gave them to him and when they opened it up there was an image of the virgin Mary on the cloak and that's where that's this is what

that's supposed to be I still don't understand why that's unique it's just a painting oh no I'm painting it just showed up I was just there okay what's it made out of like what is what is the ink what is what is the dye so okay so all right so this is where it gets complicated um so the original cloak is agave material it's made out of like you know agave yeah and the original image appears to be the agave plant fibers somehow the image was from the fibers it's not paint

there's no draw these colors okay so the colors of the cloak around her that's later an later addition okay how do we know that art historians have looked at it like people who do they use infrared photography and they're able to identify the layers of it so that the image existed originally and then people painted over the image well they painted around it they kind of embellished it so where can we see the original I'm looking I mean it's hard to get that picture

because that's to me it's not as interesting but it is the shadow torn yeah yeah I agree there's both really also painted over already it's already been sort of bastardized yeah that's the shroud of turns just weird because it's not ink yeah it's not dye it it seems to be some sort of like like it's burned in somehow or another yeah right yeah so if you got someone on here to talk about it I would either get father Dalton or I would get that doctor I would want someone to

dismiss it as well I would want two people yeah yeah I think that would be a great I'd love to see it

“because what you're saying about the parts of the fabric that had been repaired and that's what”

they did the radio carbon dating on I've heard that disputed online okay yeah but that would be a thing that you would say if you wanted to really believe that it was when 2000 years old you would say oh no no they got the wrong piece yeah and also why was it repaired like why would

Someone repair it well because it's it's a it's a devotional cloth for the Ca...

going to keep it you know by adding more cloth to it yeah because it'll you know disintegrator whatnot

I mean it's been making the rounds for a long time right yeah I don't know yeah it says it was found in 1350 and they don't know how it got to where it was in that don't they yeah that's right and don't they say that that's the when they do the radio carbon dating it goes back to around that

“area I think it goes to like the 1200s that's what they think it came from that's where”

originated yeah so even if it did it's still anomalous it's still weird yeah it's definitely weird

it's weird in the sense that it wasn't painted it's not die that seems to have been created by energy

what is the conventional description for how it was made let's see that let's see what it says what's the conventional description come on let's see how is it made rectangular linen cloth 4.4 meters long 1.1 meters wide bearing the faint front and back image of a bearded crucified man conventional description how it was made as a physical object material hand-wavin woven linen made from flocks fibers weave thread

“side strip okay but what about the image okay a faint septia does that say that we're cps cpia”

straw yellow image shows a man with wounds consistent with crucification crucifixion rather

side wound wounds at the risk and feed puncture marks around the scalp conventional skeptical mainstream explanation for how the image was produced falls into a few camps medieval painting pigmentation pigment application on report defining red ochre and vermillion pigments in a gelatin gelatin collagen tempura binder concluding it was painted in the 14th century this remains the dominant skeptical explanation rubbing or boss relief transfer technique

researchers like jol nickel have reproduced shroud like images by rubbing dry pigment iron oxide over cloth laid on the boss relief sculpture producing the same negative image surface only characteristic acid scorch or chemical stating technique dating 1988 radio carbon test performed independently by labs at Oxford, Arizona and Zurich dated the flags to 1260 to 1390 CE with a 95% confidence squarely in the medieval period consistent with its documented parents

in leery around 1355 under the conventional view this dating settles the question it's a medieval archa-fat artifact likely produced as a devotational or pilgrimage object during the period when relic veneration was a booming industry okay so what they're saying is it's made with pigment but I thought it wasn't made with pigment yeah and also that there are blood stains on it

“actual blood well that's what it's supposed to be right but is any that's what it's supposed to be”

but is anybody ever done a study a any kind of tests on that the blood stains are real human blood applied before the image was formed throughout proponents contest all the above arguing the c4 sample came from medieval repair patch that no reproduction fully matches the images properties superficially of the 200 nanamine or 3d encoded distance information no brush strokes and that the blood stains are real human blood applied before the image formed

but the mainstream conventional description remains 14th century linen cloth with hand-produced image made in France as a religious artifact yeah yeah yeah the things people want to believe that it's the shroud that Jesus was buried in right well people do want to believe it but I don't I didn't necessarily want to believe it like I've had I used to not believe it do you believe it now definitely yeah why definitely because of the the information by the blood doctor guy

which I was I hate to keep calling them that I wish I knew who his what his name was and also

My friend who was at the shroud analysis at Duke University and also like wha...

about you know I mean the thing is that it looks pretty weird and yeah yeah so yeah so I believe

it but I'm not like I can't prove that and I'm not going to that's why I do religious studies

“by the way I'm not a fewologian I can't say yes you must believe this I don't know I believe it”

that's what I can say yeah I think that's really insubscribe it yeah yeah that's him yeah that's him okay but why do I still understand why do you believe if it turns out that these people are all saying the truth that it was made with it would die yeah yeah of course then I'll just change my perception because I have new data I will change my theory like right now I believe

it's the truth but that data does exist that it's made with die okay so their die could have

put on been put on it I believe that there is a an image on it there is an image on it how did that image get there that image so this is the kind of thing that things could have been done with it it was repaired it was you know it went through many hands I mean I am a person who knows about Catholic relics I know it happens to them so these are things that would be normal in the life of a relic that they would be handled sometimes with care sometimes with not

not with care so yeah that's my belief joke like if I get you know analysis from somebody like Gary Nolan and he does this like you know microscopic analysis of everything and says no Diana sorry this is not you know I'll be oh that's too bad I really enjoyed having that belief for 10 years you know it seems like if the radio carbon dating was from 1988 like shouldn't we do some sort of an updated and also what this thing is yeah that's right the settle it totally yeah I'm

“all for that who ask a question where is it now where's it live I think it's in I think honestly”

I think it's in Turin but I could really yeah yeah and Italy oh wow yeah I could be wrong though but I think it is can you look at it can go there and look at it yeah I think you can yeah it's in the cathartol cathedral Saint John the Baptist and Turin Italy has been housed there since

1578 okay wow it's always been amazing no one's trying to steal it don't say that

why would they have ever made a fake to hide the real one yeah that's true yeah that can be yeah that can be the one that's special powers or something if you put it on a lot Dickens anything else should we talk about before we wrap this up is there anything else we didn't cover no you have it you have an alien inage up here and he has horns looks like a demon yeah that's the mother ship logo comedy mother ship oh yeah okay you're saying I know there's no real

significance to it those just fun yeah of course of course oh literally I see he did notice that though it is weird I get it especially after we're talking I should have show that's a JD I'm like do you think that's oh yeah yeah he may have noticed it and just not to say anything

“I don't think it did okay I think you probably would have brought it out”

so nothing else to just is there anything else you wanted to talk about before we wrap this up I just published a book and came out yesterday called the others and what is it about it's about stuff we've been talking about but it's also about religion and about the spiritual sense and things like that and AI so it has a has a theory of ET if you know we're talking about ET it has theory of ET in it and a couple other things so yeah what is your theory of ET?

well I'm I'm re-housing some theory so I'm like the theory of advanced technology being what people are encountering when they're encountering what they consider to be aliens and ET we talked a little bit about this last time that was something that I was thinking of it and I just rehashed it so it's it's there in the book in a more developed form if I were to just do an elevator description of it though I would say that Steven Spielberg's film AI

is a really good film about ET and what he thinks you know if ET or I know he's just done disclosure day but his movie AI seems like it was a long time ago but it's really good if you re-watch it today at the end I'm not going to do well people should have seen it already right

At the end there are aliens and they're basically humans have long since gone...

their technology their AI has improved itself to the point where it's a life form and so that would

be like the theory of I think that's probably one. I don't know. Healy joys, man. I kind of remember this too long. It's about AI but at the end it ends up being kind of like a theory of ET. Yeah which is I kind of have a feeling that life eventually stops being biological

“and becomes digital and maybe that's what people aren't countering. Yeah that's what the others”

is they have a chapter two chapters about that yeah. All right well Diana it's always fascinating

talk to you you really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Did you do the audio book or did you have an actor do it? No I did it. Thank you. It's always better. It really is it's always better when an author actually does the audio book. There it is. The others UFO AI and the secret forces guiding human destiny and I really love

“I love your other book to American Cosmics.”

- Oh, thank you, thank you.

Appreciate that. All right, thank you so much. - Thank you, thank you for being here. Let's do it again sometime. - Yeah, let's see.

- Next time, we got another book. - Okay. - I'm sure you're gonna keep writing. - All right.

“- Next time, yeah, about Christian and you probably.”

- Okay, cool. We'll do it. All right, thank you. Bye everybody. (upbeat music)

#2533 - Diana Pasulka

Transcript

[MUSIC]

Which they think can't be explained in that they're like miracles.

Okay, so I learned about skinwalker ranch pretty early on in 2013 or so.

And, you know, I mean, that's what happens to them.

I'm saying that I'm not trying to propose that these are, like, experiences.

What?

He started to get a lot of these events and you study them and everything lik...

Oh, I didn't hit the start button.

Either they're setting up the situation where they're going to have someone l...

I think that's a great strategy if you want to make something look ridiculous.

Our growth and technology is pretty amazing?

Terms apply see visible dot com for plan features and network management deta...

You're going to have waste and you're probably going to have fraud.

Okay.

Super high level clearance and everything like that.

What they're what they're really doing is working on something, probably some...

That we know of.

Okay.

Yeah.

To me it sounded like what he was saying was exactly what Tyler was saying.

Yeah.

Dominant intellect on earth or not

Way they they structure sentences so it like a lot of the context of it is we...

What is he gonna do and he basically says those of you with without sin throw...

I recognized that the book of Enoch is alive and well today that's what I rec...

Look at it from that perspective but it's all outlined in the book of acts in...

Research would and still today would say Diana you can contact these beings o...

Don't feel comfortable with that and they they tried to they tried to resist ...

With the Guadalupe Toma right so you know a lot of people say it was created ...

Someone repair it well because it's it's a it's a devotional cloth for the Ca...

My friend who was at the shroud analysis at Duke University and also like wha...

At the end there are aliens and they're basically humans have long since gone...

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