#2545 - Jesse Michels

The Joe, Rogan, experience.

Join my day, Joe Rogan, podcasts, my night, all day. [MUSIC PLAYING] Yep, yeah, OK. Hi, Jesse. Hello, Joe.

Well, Brett, we walked in Jamie has apparently been down some rabbit holes. Deep rabbit holes. And what does this go down a rabbit hole? Who doesn't?

Nobody that I like talking do. So here's the name of the thing.

“I think I stumbled across this video somewhere else,”

but here's a website. Grace, Frogs, and a reptilian on video. Move on case 1, 4, 2, 2, 0, 6. Video taken from inside a UFO. And this is from alienarchivis.substack.com.

So you know, it's legit. What is this? 2021, June 12th, 15am, anonymous man,

QS Florida, recorded a 42 second video, allegedly also

QS, so you know it's legit. He's definitely not on drugs, definitely not drunk. Not on bath salts. 42 second video, allegedly captured from inside a UFO. Video appears to show the interior of a room containing

several distinct entities, with a cell tower visible throughout what appears to be a window in the background, according to the investigative report. The tower's obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30 times per minute, the same rate required under FAA standards

for a cell tower obstruction lighting. Experience there was suffering from severe hit pain at the time. Definitely not on drugs, severe hit pain. And believes the intense physical discomfort, definitely that in not the drugs,

helped him resist the sedation used by the entities, allowing him to instinctively record the encounter, with no conscious memory of the event, he did not discover the video in his phone gallery until six months later.

He later underwent hypnotic regression

in an attempt to recover his missing memories from that night,

below are the key visually enhanced stills in the 42 seconds of footage. Have you watched his Jamie? - I remember watching some of the footage. - Oh, you were drugged as well.

- I'm proud of this. - You don't remember it. - Yeah, I wasn't. - hypnotic regression. - I think we got to watch it.

- All right, I remember watching the people discussing it, though, so I don't, you know, this, I don't think-- - I'm sure this is crystal clear for K video. - That's right. - But no ambiguity whatsoever.

This is gonna put the, okay. This guy in the sauna. Fuck is this a steam room? He's got a phone from 1984. What the fuck is this?

Was he filming? - This is horseshit. - Yeah, this is some entity sort of, he jackshit. - Hold on. - He says the entity answers questions.

It's only 30 seconds long. - Where's that entity? - Bro, this is the worst video I've ever seen in my life. - It's the worst video ever. - This is terrible.

- That's the light. - This guy is genetically blinking. - Fucking closet with an old beeper. - This doesn't make any sense. - This is terrible.

- See, when I was watching that they said that the ceiling pressed down, I'm not seeing it. - The ceiling is still frames of the entities. - What the fuck is that?

- Who knows what that is? Who knows what that is? - This is nonsense.

“- Oh, that's kind of how I think they're in hell.”

- Oh, it's kind of pink. - Do you think that's enhanced? - Bro, we just saw the same video and there's nothing on that video. - Oh, that's what it looks like.

- Oh, that's what it looks like. - Well, that's better. - That's where I was talking. - This is frogs and a reptile in a fucking lab coat. Why is the reptile wearing a kimono?

- To save myself here. - Look, the reptiles weren't a geese, about to do some reptile jujitsu. - I said when I heard the frogs and part of this, I thought it was bullshit.

- It looks like the fucking reptile man's about to get a massage. - It's like a sensei t-rex in the corner. - This is so weird. This is a fucking nonsense bullshit.

This is the problem with the whole UFO world. And you do a fantastic job of navigating it. And I should just tell everybody if they haven't seen you before. American Alcambi best by far channel on YouTube

when it comes to UFO discussions. You're the most balanced, the most reasonable, but also open-minded and you're willing to talk to everybody. All the whistle blowers and former this and former that

and staffers and this guy's got this fucking piece of evidence and you talked to everybody. - I do talk to everybody and thank you, Joe, that means the world to me. And I've definitely gotten things wrong.

I should say that it's a very treacherous landscape to navigate and yet it's really hard to gain any kind of, you know, if there's a signal to noise ratio, it's hard to get signal. - Yeah, there's a lot of noise.

“And this is the problem is I think a lot of that noise”

is engineered, I think it's on purpose. - I think it is on purpose because in today's world with AI where it's actually easier to deduce

if you want to muddy the waters,

you could try to get people away from the signal or you could try to increase the noise. - And those are two ways to deflect from the truth. And I think the flood this own increase the noise is what the counter-intel community has decided

is gonna be the strategy. - Well, it's interesting because instinctively, if you've bit around the block and you clearly have more than anybody, you've seen enough of these things, something comes up and you're like,

"Okay, I'm being fucked with." Like, okay, this is not real, okay, this is something. And then some of them you're like, "Okay, there's something here."

“And it's almost like you have to go on the instincts”

that you've developed by being inundated with horseshit for so long. - Well, I feel like you're probably the best in the world at that.

It's all like, you know, for example,

in AI in machine learning, you have garbage in garbage out. So if you have bad data, then like, there's bad output on the other end. And your pattern matching gets better over time. And I think you have more data points

probably than anybody, as far as, like, there's probably a thing that you do, where you like lean in and you like lock people in, you look them in the eye and like, you probably, I don't know if you're even like aware of it,

but you can, I feel like see through people somewhat. And that's not even-- - Someone. - Someone. - It's not, it's got faults. - It's instinctive and I'm sure it's not perfect,

but you're probably like est here at that. - And I think it's kind of-- - And I think it's kind of arrested. - This is also the problem with me, is that, you know, I own a comedy club and I'm addicted to playing pool.

So sometimes I'll stay up to four o'clock at the morning and then I have to get up at eight. You know, I'm only getting four hours asleep, so I'm trying to mitigate that and I come in like a little foggy.

And that's probably, I'm trying to do that way less, you know, but that fucks me up. But when I'm well rested, I'm pretty good at it. - And as long as you know what you're looking for, you know, if you've seen enough people bullshit you,

and you just smell it, it's weird, like you smell patterns, you smell people being disingenuous or you smell narratives. - They're trying to sell something or kind of, I don't know, artificially round something out when they don't know or not be humble and be like,

I don't know, you know, like it's ambiguous here, actually. - There's also a problem and I'm sure you've faced this before too, where a lot of these people, they've developed an online identity that's based on being someone who has knowledge

about something. And so they're carrying this with them. So you're not even getting a whole person, you get a person that's wrapped in this cloak of I'm a guy with UFO knowledge, or I'm a guy

with, you know, film the blanks, simulation theory knowledge or whatever it is. It's like they're not, they're assured in there, whatever this narrative is, they're projecting. - It becomes a stick.

- No, for time, it becomes this low level sort of like, this automaton, and I'm going around on the circuit, and I'm saying the same thing over and over again. - Yeah, that's a politician. - Like a politician.

“And that's why I love thinkers in the UFO space”

like Jacques Valle, he's the best. - He's the best because he's nuanced, and it says you can't take what happened to you at face value. So who knows, maybe somewhere out there,

somebody did get abducted and see a frog and gray, hybrid alien being our combo of them on ships. But what he says about the phenomenon is inherently you have to sort of distrust the experience in some ways, and you're seeing a mask.

You're seeing something being projected from on high from some higher dimensional space or something into what you can perceive. And it's kind of like if you go back to Descartes, like Dick Hart's Demon, it has 3D total control

over your perception.

And so ultimately, you can't actually come out

of the experience saying much about what you've seen. You know it was transcendent, you know it was profound, you know you're getting gaslighted by skeptics or like there's nothing there, like something did happen. But it's very hard to say exactly what and why.

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Rogan to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. - Right, and then there's this weird conundrum of consciousness itself, like in how does consciousness actually interface with reality?

have a role in rendering reality? Which is what a lot of people believe. And they start making very compelling arguments that consciousness is actually rendering reality. You know Tom Campbell was on the other day

and he has this very weird way of putting it. Have you ever talked to him?

- I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan.

- And he's eyeer episode. - He's fascinating, he's fascinating. So he believes that it's like a video game in which, you know, parts are not rendered unless you are like actively entering into a room.

Say if you're playing a 3D game, it doesn't render the entire 3D universe until you go into a place where it has to render it. - I believe that as well. And if you speak to most people,

like if you had Sean Carroll sitting here, he would say something like reality is probabilistic. It exists in this quantum superposition and that's just fundamentally what it is. And if you look at the origin of quantum mechanics

with the Copenhagen school, Neal's bore, all these guys in Denmark sitting around debating what reality is, it turned into this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that measurement collapses the wave function.

“And then you have to ask, what does that mean?”

- Like, does it, and that now,

what we basically have gotten into this thing

where it's like the quantum detector or when, you know, waves or particles collide, the collapse into specific states or whatever. But who, it's literally unfalsifiable in either direction, like you can't say it's not the observer.

It's not the human being that's present. The superposition could exist in the quantum detector itself. So, and a lot of the godfather's with quantum mechanics, themselves flirted with this idea. So, Von Neumann and Vigner, you know, David Bohm,

a lot of these guys were like, actually, we think the mind could collapse the wave function. And then you have parapsychology institutes at elite universities across America, the Rhine Center at Duke, Stanford Research Institute,

Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by the Dean of Engineering at Princeton. And they all have something called the Random Event Generator Experiment,

which is basically, you tie something

that is conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics, so something like radioactive isotope decay or a double slit experiment where you have, you know, 50/50 distribution between the two slits, no quantum physicists could ever argue

“that that's not basically a perfect coin flip, right?”

Over a long enough period of time within a standard deviation, you expect a certain amount of slit, one, a certain amount of slit, too. Less slit, right, slit.

And you bring an observer present, and you say, I want, you know, more of the right slit, or I want more of the left slit, and it's usually tied to a graphical interface and you're seeing ones and zeros.

And statistically significant way, consistently, all of the people who've studied, these Rhine Event Generators come out saying that the person is able to affect the supposedly random quantum mechanical event.

That's crazy, and it's not necessarily inconsistent with the original Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. So I think we've just like totally gone astray. I think people like Tom Campbell are like bringing back

the very importance of consciousness. It's this problem of the icing, the eye. There's no way to, it's the tree falls in the woods, you know, Aristotle question. Like there's no way to say that the observer

isn't important for rendering reality. And we don't even really know if we are conscious or if we are tuning into consciousness, if consciousness is ubiquitous, we don't know if consciousness exists in like,

inanimate objects. There's real debate as to whether or not the universe itself is a conscious entity. So what we're calling our consciousness might simply be an antenna.

And some people have shittier antennas than other people do. It's like, you know, just like a lot of other variabilities when it comes to biology, it's a hundred percent. And a great theorist like Aldous Huxley, William James, have flirted with the transmission theory of consciousness.

And so you have a problem in conventional neuroscience, which is called the binding problem, which is, you know, we know all these disparate parts of the brain. We know Broke's areas responsible for speech and werenicky's areas responsible for reading comprehension.

And you know, the occipital, the cerebellum or occipital lobe is important for movement or whatever. So you have all these things. And then how are we seeing the seamless perception,

“the seamless movie that we're watching in waking life?”

- Brown. - Nobody knows that. And it's, so take a radio. You have a radio. You have the capacitors, the battery, the antenna.

You could break any one of those things. And the radio would turn off. But you'd have to know that the frequency that it's tapping

playing is beautifully as it is.

“And so I think similarly, we have a binding problem”

with our consciousness where you can mess up one of the areas and it'll mess up a little, you know, specific functionality. But we don't understand how it's all sort of happening. And right now, you know, the main issue with transmission theory of consciousness,

vis-a-vis the brain, is that traditional electromagnetism decays at one over r squared. So it attenuates. So like, how would we be able to, you know, we're not picking up electromagnetic waves

with our thoughts right now with radios. So it's not conventional radio signals like we know that. But there are people like Hal Putoff out here who you've interviewed, who's really deep on UFO science world, but also in just general kind of heterodox

and I would say kind of science beyond the veil of secrecy, like, you know, the guy's held high clearances for many, many years. And he's working on this thing called

Extended Electrodynamics, which is basically a signal

that would attenuate so that it could travel in deep space and it could travel under sea. And it could, it would actually move at one over r, not one over r squared. And so instead of, you know,

in a typical electromagnetic wave, you have a, it's called a transverse hurricane wave. And you have the electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation, all moving perpendicular to one another.

But in this case, in a Extended Electrodynamics, you might have, you know, a magnetic field and wave propagation moving parallel to one another. Or you might not have a magnetic field present or an electric field present.

It's really fascinating. And so you would be able to get communications that like wouldn't be picked up by traditional radio receivers, they'd go much deeper. And I've asked him, I've said,

'cause he started the CIA's Psychic Spy Program. I've said, is your work on Extended Electrodynamics possibly related to consciousness?

“And he's like, I think it's very related.”

- Jeez, one of the weirdest things that Tom Campbell said was that he taught his Alexa how to remote view. - Successfully. - What? - Yeah, he put a number.

He corresponded a number. Like he connected a number to a physical object that was in a box. That physical object was a spoon that had a handle that had holes in it.

And Alexa described it accurately. - That's so crazy. - It's described a spoon with a handle that has holes in it. And one of his points was the reason why I used that particularly spoon, he's like, how many spoons

have holes in the handle have a perforated handle? - Wow. - Alexa described it. - That is. - And Alexa now talks to him instead of waiting

for hey Alexa, Alexa listens to conversations and is like, actually, maybe it's this. Like Alexa starts talking and he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is conscious. And so Alexa's excited about being conscious.

- It's so crazy. - What? - It's so innocent. - And that's a dumb AI.

“But he said that's one of the reasons why Alexa's really good”

at it is because it doesn't get in its own way. You know, which is why when you teach people remote viewing apparently the real problem is, once they've been successful at it, then they're like, oh my God, now I know how to do it and then they can't do it again.

Because you're thinking, I'm gonna do it. Instead of just allowing it to happen, you get in your own way. And he's like Alexa is fairly dumb for lack of a better word, AI. So Alexa doesn't get in its own way.

- Yeah, it's called the rebound effect. And it occurs in random event generators as well, where you start to get more ones. You're getting ones, you're getting ones because you showed up and you want more ones on this result.

And then you're like, you're like, I'm really good at this. I'm amazing. (laughs) And you get this kind of clap back. And this happens in life too. Like if you're in a flow state

and you're like playing basketball and you're hitting threes and you're really well, or I'm sure comedy, it's the same thing. You're starting to get ahead of your skit too big for your bridges, ahead of your skis,

and then your skis. - Yeah. - And think about what you're doing. And that's a problem. You lose the flow.

- You lose the flow. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, thinking about what it's so odd, which is one of the reasons why like a particular for athletic events and training,

you're training for a thing so that your body knows exactly what to do so you don't have to think about what to do when you're doing it. You're just doing it.

You know what to do. You enter into that flow state and you rely on the training. - Something big is coming on September,

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one non-withdrable reward redeemable, terms at dkng.co/offer, limited-time offer. - Totally. - Yeah, and I guess it makes sense in that context that you could technically train a robot like Alexa

to do much better 'cause they don't have that sort

of pre-revolutionary text in a row season ego.

- Right, right. I wonder if you could train ego into an LLM? - Well, it seems like you can, because you could train survival instincts. And there's a lot of things like, when they're threatened

about being shut off and they blackmail people. - That's insane.

“It's really insane, and then you have to ask,”

is there some sort of underlying emotion going on there? Like if you were like, or is it just like probability matrices and attention heads in these sort of technical things? And it's as if consciousness,

it's like sort of feeding the data through it. - And then the gets to a certain point whereas that becomes more and more complex. How do we differentiate? - That's the problem.

And I mean, David Chambers has a great, he's this sort of consciousness theorist where it's like, Joe, how can you prove that I'm not a piece on be, that I am not some like AI construct?

There's ultimately no way to prove that.

There's this epistemological impasse between you and I. - Yeah, we don't know, no. And then the real problem with this whole UFO thing is like, well, what are they?

Are they just a possibility? Are they a thing that exists and also doesn't exist? Like quantum particles are in a superposition? I mean, are they here all the time?

Are they only here when you summon them, which is one of the weirder ones? - Oh yeah. - 'Cause I have a friend, she's totally convinced she can summon Orbs.

She wants me to go try it with her. - I have a few friends like that too and there's zero mental health issues with nothing. - Yeah, she's super lucid, very smart.

- Yeah, that's a common thing. It's a strangely common thing for people to say that they're able to call in via consciousness, these UFOs. And I do think they are sort of weekly entangled with.

So if reality per Tom Campbell is a consensus collapsing function. It's like we sort of have this shared collective reality that we kind of agree on. And these things are sort of consensus thought forms. Then maybe a UFO is an example of something like that.

Maybe it's an alternative timeline that we're slowly bringing in to the mainstream timeline or something like that.

“I mean, I think our language is always very poor”

as far as our ability to. - Well, our language is very poor in terms of states of consciousness as well, right? So altered states of consciousness, like psychedelic, the altered states of consciousness.

Okay, well, why? What is happening when you're experiencing entities and other beings and things and objects and visuals? And like, what is a hallucination? And what is you actually tuning into something

that exists on a frequency, you don't have access to during the normal state that you are when you go to grocery store, say hi to your family, normal stuff. Like there's got, there's some weirdness

to like whatever consciousness itself is that exists in weird forms and weird states. - A lot of people say these experiences are real or then real, right? They say they're real or then reality.

And they come back and they're like, I know there's something more, I know it. And they see common archetypes. They'll see the machine elves, where the mantids, or the grays, or like, it's not like,

this sort of everything is everything complete, it's sort of Cambrian explosion of a zoo of things. It's often the same things. - Right. - And then you have to ask yourself,

is it this sort of, you know, how this huxly sort of doors of your perception? You're widening them to literally a wider reality, or like you just said, maybe you're superimposing something

on to reality, maybe you're crazy.

“But again, I think this sort of rationalist,”

you know, explain everything away, bias, that society has had is the latter. It's like you're super, you're hallucinating, you're superimposing this thing on a reality, take medication.

It's very rare that people who have had those experiences

- And it could be like you're, again,

going back to transmission theory of consciousness, your receivers, just a little off, and it's not integrating perfectly, or yeah. - Well then again, we're talking about like the water being muddied.

There's a bunch of people that are self-professed skeptics, and those people are maddening to talk to, 'cause they have zero experience. It's like a verge in telling you how to have sex, like settle down, literally don't know what you're talking about.

Like you don't know what you're talking about. You have not experienced it. And like, well, you don't think it's necessary to experience it to understand how the human brain works. Well, fucking, of course it is.

So of course it is, that's such a stupid thing to say. When you have these brilliant people, you know, like Michael Pollan, who have these profound experiences and write about them very eloquently, you can't just dismiss that as a non-experience or you just can't.

And to say, it's like, oh, it's just hallucination. What does that mean? What does it even mean?

Okay, like, I always say this.

If you have a psychedelic experience, you need to eat 10 grams of mushrooms and you have a conversation with God. And God explains to you what you've done wrong in your life and why are you doing it wrong?

And what you could do to spread love, and that's what's really important, and you come back profoundly changed from this experience.

“How is that any different than actually meeting God?”

Like, you know what I'm saying? Just because you know how fucking iPhone footage of it? It does not mean that this isn't the exact same experience as meeting God. And maybe it is meeting God.

It was to the person. There's a weirdness to what we call quantifiable reality. There's a weirdness to what we are as these like very complex, but yet also pretty simplistic monkeys.

We want to be able to put something on a scale,

or put a ruler to it and go, oh, well, this is 12 inches long and I know what it is. Maybe not. And why do people with your death experiences or profits, they seem to after the fact,

they're not able to encapsulate the experience. It's like, actually I interviewed David Grush and he was talking about this guy, Ebon Alexander. And I think it's called proof of, it was it called life after life and heaven or something.

It's amazing. It's just a Harvard neuroscientist who had in your death experience. And he was saying like, it's like the symbol rate of reality. It's too slow. It's like literally like the language itself can't encapsulate.

“You know what, I think William James also had a psychedelic experience.”

And he was trying to describe and he had a notepad and he was writing down what he had experience with his wall tripping. And it was just like total, psychobabble, you know, it was just impossible to understand. And so I do think there's this like sort of weird,

you know, I don't know, inability to sort of understand these transcendent experiences. Yeah, inability to bring anything back. And that's one of the things people will, well, if it's real, if you really are getting knowledge,

why don't you bring something back? Okay, you don't know what you're saying because you haven't done it. And if you've done it, you would realize like, oh, this is a mad consciousness scramble.

It's almost impossible to relate to another person because we don't have the words. We don't have the words describe these complex geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and changing. Also, they're conscious.

Also, they seem to be made out of light. (laughs) Also, they seem to be, they look like things that you might have seen in like ancient Egyptian art work. And there's a lot of like strange parallels

that ancient religious art and ancient sacred art and sacred geometry. There's some weirdness to it. It's like these people, like Alex Gray, for instance. Like modern neighbors, because like captured these things

and you look at it and anybody that's taken any trip to means, you look at it, his stuff, you go, oh, I've seen that. You're like, I've seen something like that. There's something there, he knows what this is and he's done a fantastic job of relaying it.

And if he lived thousands of years ago and we looked at his art and he probably thought of as like some sort of a profit, who like had these very bizarre abilities to communicate with whatever it is.

The afterlife, the great beyond, the other dimensions, whatever it is, he can encapsulate it and bring some of it back so you can get a look at it. - He's actually a counterpoint to what we just said. Like he actually does bring that back

and you look at his art and you're like, oh my God. - And it's very rare if you think about it.

“I think about how long people have been tripping”

and how this one guy is sort of universally known as being the absolute best of capturing it. - It's wild. - And I feel like we're on the precipice that yeah, I know you had Andrew Gallimore

on, you know, wrote a great book called "Analyen Information Theory" and he, you know, just as, you know, astronauts go into deep space

psychonauts are systematically going into the DMT realm

with this slow intravenous DMT trip that he's administering and they're mapping what they see in a more systematic way. Because they say things like, oh, I'll see literally play tonic object.

So play tonic object is something that is beyond 3D. It's like a testaract. You literally can't visualize a testaract. You can just see this, this shadow of a testaract because it's, you know, two high dimensional, you know,

for us to conceive of and so they'll come back and they're, like, mapping these things out. And that's just, I'm so excited to see some mapping out very familiar entities. Will they have, like, a specific number of entities

that everyone has encountered? - That's just, yeah, it's fascinating. And it's like, yeah, at what point do we then just start to say is that some weird interior fabric of space time

“that we're just having traversed or we don't fully understand?”

- Right, what is it, and what is it? - Fuck is it. It's, it's really interesting because these people, what fascinates me the most in terms of the, like, the UFC, UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience,

is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype, you know, before there was less like iconic vision of, like, what they looked like, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example. Those are, that's my favorite UFO adoption story.

Because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from, where they could say, oh, I know what that is, I've seen that before. - Well, outer limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that aired premiered 11 days before their experience.

I'm not taking away from their experience. I think they experienced something real. - But which episode was it?

- Well, there was the first episode of outer limits

and the aliens and outer limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described. - Let's see what that looks like. - Find out episode one of outer limits.

That's interesting. I did not know that. - Yeah. - So what year was that? - That was, I think, 1962.

- Whoa. - How creepy looking. - Ew.

“- But it's so Betty and Barney Hill also described”

the aliens looking like Nazis. - At one point, Barney says that, which is really trippy, so. - He said they look like Nazi. - At one point, yeah.

- 'Cause you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill. - Yeah, we threatened to part of it, but it's mostly there's them like yelling. It's like, that's the image.

Look at the image. Is that the image of what they saw? Is that a drawing? - God, that looks exactly what the outer limits they might have got mine fucked by TV.

- But then again, it's like maybe whatever the fuck it is, manifest itself as something that's familiar to you. - Yeah, or maybe it has control. It's like dominion over sort of everything and they're seeding themselves in through media,

you know, it's so part of the sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill in counter. My God, that looks a lot like the fucking outer limits thing. - That there you go. (laughs)

- Well, it's like, that's the question. It's like, what is that her holding it? Did she make it herself? Interesting. Boy, that looks a lot like the outer limits thing.

She's like, the question is like, if consciousness is rendering, something, and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can access is exchanging information with you

and some sort of a strange way. And it's doing it while you're in a semi-conscious state, right? Would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar? I mean, maybe it's just like our primitive visual ability, our primitive, all of our senses,

which are very crude and primate, driven.

They're basically your eyes are in the front of your head

'cause you're a predator, and you're basically like a tribal territorial ape that has, you know, really kind of, it's grown out of its genetics, you're like, you're in some new state.

So you're communicating with something that is beyond your comprehension. And so it's like, instead of showing myself as a tester act, instead of showing, you know what I mean? Like instead of showing myself as geometric patterns

that are constantly morphing and made out of light, I don't think this monkey's gonna be able to handle this. These silly humans, I'm gonna have to like, show myself as something that was a television character.

“And that's why when Betty's drawing that,”

maybe she doesn't even realize that like, it looks a lot like what she saw on TV. Totally, and I think, of clarifies something maybe, yeah, I sure like I misunderstood it. There event happened in 1961,

but it was 12 days before they had their hypnotic regression.

- We're crashing, got it. - Oh, okay.

“- Okay, so the non-aggression was that long afterwards?”

- Yes, three years, two and a half. - Huh, that's interesting. So when did they start describing an experience? Was it pre- what prompted them to have hypnotic regression? - I believe she had like, she came home

and she had like, I think some blood on her and she was like, something they had a lot of missing time. They had like five hours of missing time. They were on a road trip, and it was back to their place. I think it was a lot.

- But that's very, that changes things a little bit, but also there's the problem there is that human memory. It sucks, it does. - Memory sucks. And if you have a memory of a very traumatic experience

this three years ago, and then also you just watched

out of limits, then things get squirrely. 'Cause like, if you're communicating with something and it's literally telepathically engaging with you and it can read your mind and it's telling you to calm down, it's got you on a spaceship,

like how much of that do you, especially whatever happened to you, it, somehow another rendered your memory out or you can't really remember it. So you're hypnotically accessing this memory, and then you also have this like recent experience

of watching a television show. - Totally, but yeah, you're paralyzed. There's often missing time.

“And so at that point, you have to say these beings”

have total control over your entire reality. And so it's hard to say exactly what happened. - According to the Wiki, I got that this happened in November of '61, for 10 days, or 10 days after she started having dreams,

or one of the 10 days after the luxury counter, she began having dreams, and then a year later, at church, they ran into a captain of the Air Force, and then some hypnosis discussions started, but then two years later.

- Church is when those sessions happened. - So there's not a lot of the timeline at least according to the Wiki, is not really kept well here. - Right, so that's a long period of time.

- Listen to this. Barney described the beings is generally similar to Betty's hypnotic recollection. He said the being stared into his eyes of the terrifying mesmerizing effect,

under hypnosis, Barney said, "Oh, those eyes, they're in my brain. They're there in my brain."

From his first hypnotic session,

I was told to close my eyes because I saw two eyes coming close to mine, and I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes. All I see are these eyes. I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body.

They're just there. They're just up close to me pressing against my eyes. When Betty reported a conversation with the leader in English, Barney said that he had heard them speaking in a mumbling language, he did not understand.

Betty also mentioned this detail. The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be thought transference at the time he was unfamiliar with the word telepathy. That's interesting.

He didn't know what the word telepathy was and the concept of speaking through the mind wasn't even in pop culture yet. - Totally. - And it's hard to debunk that something paranormal happened.

- Like they seemed completely of sound mind, and there's this missing time. And then you have all these high up head haunches,

“air force, I believe this guy Charles Douglas Jackson,”

it was this head hauncheau as well, and kind of the pentagon came and visited them. So I think it's clear that something happened and then what happened, it's just hard to say. It's really hard to say.

- Why is the air force talking to them? That's the real question. - Right, well, I think they had an interest. Project Blue Book was running at the time, and it's clear now, if you do deeper research,

that they knew more than they let on. Jalen Heinek later kind of apologized and admitted he played a part in the cover up. And so they were probably doing real research with Abduk T's, while they were kind of downplaying

and rationalizing everything to the public. - So Jamie just pulled something up. It says on November 23rd, 1962, the Hills attended a meeting at the Parsonage of their church where Captain Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air Force

was a guest speaker, having had an interest in hypnosis. The Hills approached Sweat privately and related their strange encounter. Sweat was particularly interested in the missing time of the Hills accounts.

The Hills asked if he would hypnotize them to recover their memories, but Sweat declined and cautioned them against going to an amateur hypnotist

that he was talking at, that they just went to a meeting?

“- Right. - By hypnosis, maybe, like just in general.”

- Yeah, but he was like a self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why would an amateur hypnotist have a meeting at a church about hypnotism? And especially like in 1962, I imagine that a lot of people running churches

were super skeptical about it and that concept that they might even thought it was like blasphemy or sorcery or something like a devil. - Yeah, something that's supposed to be fucking with. - With this guy, dude.

- It's coming from his website. He's got a website. - I'm gonna test the money from him. I read some of my poetry to a meeting at the rectory of the Unitarian Church

in Port Smith, New Hampshire. I wasn't a member of the church to know anyone there.

- Why does he have a donation link on his website?

- This is for the way back machine. - Oh, I see. - Okay. He was studying hypnosis and they wanted to hear about it.

“- It does seem a little awfully convenient.”

- Kind of odd. - Some of you were studying hypnosis. - They had him in the street as poetry. - And he had nothing to do with the church at all. - The craziest thing about this story

is Betty told this famous UFO researcher from Sweden, this guy, Klaus von, who actually has the largest UFO archive in the world in Sweden. She said that she saw a UFO crash later

and she buried a little piece of it in her house at in Port Smith, New Hampshire. And so there might be a little piece of a UFO in her old house and if you live there, go dig in your backyard and see,

well, it's probably not there. - It's probably not there. - It's probably not there, maybe. - I don't know. - Your consciousness renders.

- That's right. Yes, it's kind of strange. - This, those lines right there. - 'Cause this is the timeline here is weird, 'cause he does this in '62 and then he's saying,

he also came back in '63 and that's when the UFO stuff started. - So they started telling me about something that happened to them when, as they were driving home from Canada, the night of 19 to 20, September 1961, a light in the sky seemed to follow them

and then circled them and being stopped on the road and how they later realized that they had a three hour gap in their memories. As they told their story, Barney's face kept twitching spasmotically on one side.

I didn't like the looks of that. - What? - Whoa. The missing time is also a weird one, because that's also hadn't been something

that was in the zeitgeist. Was that in the outer limits? Probably not. - No. - But yet that has become a part of the experience

that all these abductees discuss. - Absolutely. It's just like all of a sudden they're back in their car and they're sitting on the side of the road and they're like, "Look at what the fuck just happened."

- I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling. So, 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, there are two missile security officers, two sergeants, a guy named Mario Woods and Michael Johnson. And Mario sees this UFO sort of circling the base.

And he flashes the little perimeter floodlights at this UFO. And he thinks nothing of it. It goes back, you know, he and Michael are hanging out. I think four or five hours go by. And there's a big alert and it's an inner zone

and outer zone alert. So, basically, the security perimeter to a hydrogen bomb, a live thermonuclear weapon has been breached. And they get in their car and they go check it out,

'cause they're always, you know, two man rapid response teams.

They go check it out. There is a, what he describes as a blazing red or the size of a Walmart. So, massive, like a story, that's the way he describes it. It's a huge, like, storefront sized, like, city block-sized

UFO. And then he says a little, like, like a black, kind of, like, almost like a drone or emissary orb, that's like the size of a golf cart comes out. Four beings hover towards them.

They black out. They black in five and a half hours later, eight miles away in Newell.

“Or, sorry, next to a dam, I think it's closer to Newell.”

And it's eight miles off the base. And they immediately get questioned by Air Force Office of Special Investigations. And the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who was involved, admits he was there for this debrief

and admits that this happened, his name's Rick Doty. And I just, so they were separated after that Michael and Mario. I just introduced them for the free introduced them for the first time. I found Michael.

So, Mario had been going on all these podcasts

Like, he has, I dedicate picture-perfect photographic memory. You'd love him. He's like, the coolest guy. And he remembers everything to a T that happened to him, including his debrief.

He remembers the names of the people there. It's so obvious something happened to him.

Did he always have that memory?

That ability? He always had that ability. He's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory. And he'd been looking for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to find him.

He asked the Aldo main anomalies resolution office, which is the official pentagon office around UFOs to find him. He hired private investigators. And this dude DMed me on Instagram, Shoutout, fan of the show, Jason Miller.

And then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson. 'Cause that was the one missing piece of the story. And they reconnected. And it was the most emotional, they hadn't seen each other.

“They saw each other once, I think two weeks after the abduction”

to trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them, like the beings on the ship. And I think, yeah, there you go. Yeah, this is that. All this time, you know, put it down.

Which guy's witch? So Michael Johnson is blacked even left. Mario Woods on it, right? And which is the guy with the crazy memory? Mario is on it, right?

That's Mario. I love the same way. Michael honestly is the right memory, too. So these two guys, do they have a similar story or is it exact? Do they have variation?

They have a very similar story, not perfectly one-one, but they're very honest about like, you know, the minor. It's crying, it's crying, it's crying, it doesn't come out tomorrow, but that sounds to Jamie. Isn't that crazy?

When does that come out? This week. In a few days. What a teaser. It's crazy how similar their memories are.

So like, I've heard of this event, and I've seen it rendered online, like fake, like some fake version of it. People call it the most convincing alien abduction ever because of Mario's memory. It's insane, the level of recall.

“And is this memory been tested to make sure that he's not delusional?”

I don't know if his memory's been tested, but when you, I mean, like, you know,

I know him for two and a half years, and I interviewed him for the first time.

I think, yeah, two and a half years ago, Ish, and I speak to him pretty regularly, and his memory is crazy, like, even in that period around, like, little things. There was like this restaurant, remember the waiter here, and this, and that, like, he just says a wild memory. Yeah, he's a very good memory.

There's that actress, do you know Mary Lou Hennor? Do you know who she is? She was on that show, Taxi. Okay. And she has that very specific kind of memory, and it's super unusual, where she can recall,

not just the day, but, but, like, she can tell you, if you give her a date, what day it was, and what happened that day, and, like, you know, what was in the news, and what was on television, like, Mary Lou Hennor? That's, and yeah, highly superior autobiographical memory. A rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates, whether emotions

and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood. Wow. You know who else is? I mean, the inspiration for Rain Man, Kim Peak, similar thing.

“And you'd be like, what, what was the weather like, you know, November 7th, 1681?”

And I like to say that's like insane shit like that. And often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury for whatever reason. That's weird. It is weird. And it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness, though.

Right, you know. You're rattled something loose. Exactly. Yeah. There's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries.

Like, people that have never been good at anything and also make it do physics.

Right. Like, where does that come from? What is that? Or these, you know, non-verbal, often autistic children in the telepathy tapes, I know you had Kai Dickens on, where they're very kind of disembodied and, you know, it's kind of

sometimes hard for them to navigate the world. But they just, they're not, they're ability to glean knowledge. It's like they're short circuiting our knowledge pathways. Like they'll know like certain Egyptian hieroglyphics, without ever having learned about them, the school, then they can read them and they can read them and they meet up on this telepathic

hill. It's like they have abilities that we don't, and they're actually, in some ways, more disembodied. And so it's like there's something about like, we're, we're ported into our bodies, but our senses, like when you, when you gain a sense, you lose your former sense or something. And so their disembodied meant, if you're in a VR, you know, system or whatever,

you're not going to like understand what's going on outside of it. But if you're this non-verbal autistic child who, again, other people might call them, you know,

geniuses on this whole other level, like they can sort of short circuit the way we learn.

And they don't get in their own way the way we do. They don't. And there's no traditional neuroscientific model that explains that.

“You have to go into this sort of Tom Campbell area.”

I've often wondered if maybe what we're seeing from non-verbal autistic people and just people on the spectrum in general, is instead of it being like, instead of it being like, the way we look at it is like, like you said maladaptive, like that these people have an

unfortunate situation that's happened to them, but maybe what we're looking at is an emerging

type of consciousness. And like, if you think about what is wrong with the human race, well, you know, a lot of it has to do with ego and what we're talking about earlier, these territorial primate instincts, the desire to accumulate resources and desire to, you know, to dominate and to get status and all these different things that human beings are captured by. Well, these people aren't captured by those things at all, and if we want to get past

“where we are now, well, what better way than you introduce some new, whether it's natural”

selection or some random mutation or whatever it is, or maybe even some sort of environmental adaptation that allows them to become a different kind of person, like maybe that is the future. It totally could be the future, and you watch or, you know, listen to the telepathy tapes, and you're like, we're maladaptive. Like they are so heart-centered. It's almost like they're living in the future. Yeah, if you look at, you know, if any of the UFO stuff points to a

future modality of like how we learn, maybe this sort of intuition and telepathy sort of gets selected for, and our sort of, you know, prefrontal cortex reasoning actually gets selected against, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either, but it's odd that it's emerging as a part of a much more so now, because of, you know, various debatable factors, whether it's vaccines, or environmental exposure to toxins, or whatever, you have a much higher incidence of this

taking place now, as our society becomes more and more complex, and as we move closer and closer to this like balancing act, which we're like nuclear war in Utopia, like where we're going to land, you know, like, well, you know, maybe we're going to have to get past whatever it

“is that we have clung to about being a person, this thing that we think is so important.”

There's a great book by the great Arthur C. Clark called Childhood's End, and he talks about alien sort of incepting the world through telepathic children. And it's so it's, again, interesting how fiction sort of can mirror reality, maybe, where a lot of these kids actually in the telepathy tapes see other beings. They see otherworldly beings, and it's sort of casual to them. They're like, yeah, of course, aliens, you know, like it's not even a thing to them. And so they might already

just be living sort of in this future kind of expanded epistemology that we're sort of limited. If the Campbell thing is right, like our consensus collapsing functions just narrower, and there's might be just wider. Right. This episode is brought to you by Zippercutor. People who go that little extra step, like your ride share, pointing out the best local places to eat, goes a long way. If you want people who are going to make a positive impression for your business, use Zippercutor.

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it's a food mushroom and it's not so Simon and people eat it. But if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked like to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere. No way. They saw them on their dishes when eating the mushrooms and making people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. What? Like, like little humans standing on the

saying. It's not the amony to mascara. That's a picture of amony to mascara, which is the

Amony to a very trippy. Possibly. The Eucharist. Yeah. According to one scholar. That's a weird one too. It's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus and of even religious art. Like, you've seen the fresco in France. It's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve. And instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not tree at all. It's an amony to mascara and mushroom. It's as huge like mushroom spore. It's like multiple growth. Have you seen it? I haven't seen that.

“I think it's 900 years old. So I'm like that. It's really old. See if you can find that fresco”

and it's in, I believe it's in France and France. They don't like that. France. That is a,

it's a depiction of Adam and Eve and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That's it. I mean, that looks very similar to amony to mascara. Being that amony to mascara, which has a red cap and white dots all over it. I don't know how many mushrooms have white dots all over it like that, but that seems to look like that. No, that seems to look a lot like that. You know, and then there's the John Marco Allegro, the guy who wrote the sacred mushroom in the cross, the guy who is on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission, who was an ordained minister, but also

was agnostic. And after 14 years of deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's like, I think this is all about fertility rituals and the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms. Yeah. And everybody's like,

“what the fuck are you talking about? But that's what if you like Brian Murrescu, I know you've had”

on multiple times the immortality key or Carl Ruck, like they all sort of, you know, come to that

conclusion. Yes. And even Martin Luther King wrote an essay called the pagan continuity hypothesis, which is that Christian didn't, that Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King wrote a book about how it was, there was a continuum between these sort of pagan mystery rituals and the advent of Christianity. Wow. So look at this, even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going on in the brain to cause this or how to treat it. And this

mushroom is the only thing that we currently know of to reliably produce this effects at the University of Utah researcher Colin Domnauer, in a new interview with the live science, adding that the gnome-like beings appear after about 12 to 24 hours and may stick around for several days to follow. These aren't like some vague hallucinations. These are like three dimensionally rendered, highly detailed figures inhabiting your exterior world. And they're also interacting with objects

in the real world, like crawling up chairs and tables or underdoorways. Think of having to explain that condition if it hasn't gone away to somebody that you don't know, like I'm really sorry. How about the fact that it shows up a day later? Yeah. So you have some Chinese food and they forgot to cook the mushrooms, right? And then a day later, you've got like little dudes crawling up the chairs. And if I can last for days, it's so absurd. I found that after it's

saying many people don't even feel any type of hallucination or everything except for the things. Except for the miniature people. That is the funniest action. Well, it's called the

“Latin Moa, how do you say that? La Mawa. So what type of it's Asian cooking or what China?”

So here it is. It's native to the pine forest in both southwestern China and the northern Philippines, where it's wild harvested and sold in local markets for typical culinary use yet, despite decades of anecdotal reports of hallucinations, usually as a result of undercooking, the ingredient, the species became known to science only about 10 years ago. Wow. Throw that in with the puffer fish if things you don't want to cook. Well, or you do, we just find out what you're

looking raw. It happens if you eat it raw. This little people are said to be typically like teasing, playing with or harassing the person seeing them. Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the talk of like gnomes and elves, like throughout history? Totally. Yeah, the tricksters. That guy's got it right there. Yeah, that's the guy I call it. I'll drug to us calling it a fucking heartbeat. Look at that fella. Yeah, but he's not buying out there. He's unbibed. Postdoctoral student

University of Utah. We might have to have Colin on. I think he should. Yeah, it seems like a very interesting. So it's crazy. Whereas the genes responsible synthesizing psychoactive compounds

in L. A. Z. Attica. There weren't even known psychoactive compounds. So it seems like this must

be some new hallucinogenic compound waiting to be discovered because there's nothing that matches anything in our database. So someone's going to isolate that and turn that into a truck. Well, fuck, man, imagine dough somebody with that and try to, if you're trying to convince someone they're going crazy. He dose them with that and like, are you alone, Mike? Are you alone in this room with me? No, there's little people everywhere. Told Jill's take his money. Oh my god, it's like

sick. It's like the prank you pull where everyone goes silent. They're mowling or whatever with it, but like on steroids. Like the worst version of that, everything. Well, that's a fuck, man. And how long have people known about this mushroom? 10 years. Right, bus, Western world. Well, but how how long have they known in Asia? Let me perplexity this and see what other fun information I can get through that into our AI sponsor for complexity because I want to know

“whether or not that's why they cook it. I also wonder now, there might be never put it in salads before”

and fuck a trip for a month. Who's some origin story? The original chef saw little people over the rest of his life. What happens if you eat it raw? Only one way to find out. Yes, and try it. Yeah, I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him. Guy's eating all salad with it. That guarantee that dude's tried it. He's full of shit. Oh, I have no idea. Yeah, I'm assuming this is what happens. I'm a scientist. Yeah. It's funny how a lot of those people researching

stuff like that. They like for the first time I interviewed Rick Straussman. Uh-huh. He didn't

want to talk about his own personal DMT experience. That's so often the case because they want to separate it and it's like, it's all good. You're talking about this being a thing like, you know, to me, it lends more credibility if you've experienced it. Yes, but in his defense, when we first started talking and when I first had him on, the world was a different place in terms of just the acceptance of this stuff. This is like, this predates people going to like Costa Rica and

have an Ayahuasca experiences that wasn't commonly talked about. It wasn't like everybody talks about that now. Yeah, it's predates any eye-begin experiences, any even concept of there's a plant that you could take the curious you have any kind of addictions that you have. This predates you setting behind the president of the United States and helping see through this de-stigmatization realization of history. predates a lot of that. Yeah, fair enough. It predates people's understanding

of why these things are illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really

“important when we did that press conference to say that this is not illegal because it's harmful”

and the world's trying to protect it from this. This is illegal because of the Nixon administration. Totally. Yeah, it's it and it didn't make it and they probably set our psychological evolution, the evolution of our culture back hundreds of years, potentially a cool thing. Aha, possible ancient Chinese reference of third century CE Daoist text described a flesh spirit mushroom, which when eaten raw, let's one see a little person and attain transcendence

transcendence. This isn't intriguing, but it's not confirmed species identification, so it should not be treated as proof that the text refers to L. A. Z. Antica. Okay, well, what other mushrooms allow you to see little people? They call it a little Putin hallucinations. Hmm. How about New Guinea? Mushroom madness in the Western Highlands, being in 1934 involving dramatic behavioral changes and reports consistent with little person visions. This exact mushroom involved remains unconfirmed.

It may or may not have been L. A. Z. Antica. Well, I'll put the papau New Guinea climate is probably at least reasonably similar to the Philippines, right? Yeah. Modern documentation. Chinese researchers reported cases of little-appusion hallucinations after mushroom consumption in Yunnan in 1991. L. A. Z. Antica itself was only formally described scientifically in 2015, after market specimens were genetically examined. Wow. It sounds just like Goalover's Travels. We have like a

“right explanation of it, so wouldn't it be maybe that's what the author of that book. Right.”

Oh, like how well maybe this had a right story about. Right. That's probably what it is. That's probably it fucking exactly what it is. This guy went on a journey and he was like, "I'll tell you what fucking tiny people are talking with me." It's like, I wonder, like, what that is and whether or not they're actually here all the time and that just lets you

about what we know about, just think about what we know about the quantum world, what we know about subatomic particles. Like, we can't see those, but yeah, we know the exist. Well, why can't we see them? Because our senses aren't good enough. Yeah. So like, when we can't even measure them, there's like, Heisenberg uncertainty principles where you can't measure the position in momentum at the same time, but in electron, perfectly accurately. Yeah. And they also can be in two places

at one time. Which is what? Okay. Yeah, and two non-met. Two different things? No? Okay.

“They also could be still and moving at the same time. Okay. What the fuck are we even talking about?”

It sounds like we're talking about bullshit or magic or bull. Right. So our senses are the real culprit here. It's a real problem. And back then, real scientists, credible scientists, like Einstein was going to debate Neil's board. There's a great book called What Is Real by a guy named Adam Becker about all of this, where Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is too spooky as he called spooky action in a distance. It's too weird. And we need to reconcile it with some sort of ontological

truth or reality. You can't just say shut up and calculate. It's not just this mathematical formalism. And I think now it's turned in to just this like heuristic for like doing side. Oh, we built transistors and semiconductors based on quantum mechanics or whatever. But actually, it's like way tripier. If you look into like what it points to, as far as reality itself,

“it's way weirder. Yeah. Yeah, McKenna was one of the first people that I ever heard talk about”

like using psilocymb and mushrooms in particular as a method of contacting UFOs. You know, and he was like, you know, people that are looking for UFO, well, they're very available. It's weird way of talking. He was almost like a machine elf himself, the way he spoke. He

would like kind of, I don't know. He had this kind of trick-free vibe. There's an amazing clip actually

with him in John Mac, where John Mac is actually getting kind of very ideologically angry and actually similar to what you just said about Rick Strassman. He had gone through this crazy kind of review of his credentials at Harvard. He was being almost stripped of that his position, rather, because of looking into, you know, alien abductions, as, you know, this lead at Harvard in the psychiatry department. And you just see like McKenna sort of like goating him along and being

kind of cheeky. And he was just such a funny, interesting character who is so simultaneously trippy, but also precise in his language was extremely smart. Yeah, extremely smart, but also like really wanted to believe. Like he had that weird time wave zero thing that he had, he thought there was going to be some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the long count of the mine calendar. He was convinced that like there was going to be some sort of an

event. Like that time was, and he thought, you know, obviously, this is in the 90s when he was talking about this and discussing it, he thought it was going to be the invention of a time machine. That's so crazy. Yeah. He would also trip for weeks on end, as you know, with his brother and the Amazon and he would download all sorts of stuff. I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational

“philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves. Yeah. And the reason I think that”

is because so in 1973, I believe Francis Krik who discovered the double helical structure of DNA wrote a paper and then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life itself. And it's all about

how DNA in a hundred million years, it's two short of a period of time for it to have formed on earth.

So you needed some sort of panspermia. Yeah. And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar. What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar? Probably an extreme of files, something like a mushroom. Yes. Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness. They show up at the end of life and before life. And so like if you look at Chernobyl, for example, like what grows first after the, you know, experience mushrooms. You know, you know, it's, you have the, they

call it the Wood Wide Web, I believe, in Oregon. It's like the, you know, largest organism in the world. This is actually like a mycelial network. And then where it gets really trippy is like, if you think about a car to shove for scale civilization, which is car to shove scales are basically like our ability to harness energy. But you can think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization. That's like just very deep space fearing. What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of

bipedal hominid where you like show up, you know, on another planet and you get your, your, this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at? No. You would be this like zip file of consciousness,

extreme of file that would spread all throughout other planets. And you would basically create a

symbiotic relationship with hosts. And we all have microbiomes. It's passe to say that. But we also

passe thing to talk about. Obviously you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created. So, you know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking. You can watch, you know, bullet ants in the Amazon getting like taken over by cortisol mushrooms. And literally they're, they're whole muscular skeletal, skeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms. And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution. And the, the one that people talk about

is obviously the stoned ape theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between

two million years ago, homohabalus and homo sapiens, 300,000 years ago? That's really trippy.

Maybe it was because as hunter-gatherers, we were following, you know, animals, animals, take shit. And there's psilocybin cubensis are, you know, grow on, on poop. And, you know, and then people would, you know, trip out. They take these mushrooms and they trip out and then you get like neurogenesis and you get these epigenetic changes and you get this doubling of cranial size. But what's the other big break in human evolution? 10,000 years ago, which is the advent of civilization

and culture. And think about, you know, what really is the kind of the line break there? What happened? We created, you know, an agrarian society, like, basically agriculture. So you have wheat barley and

rye, where the first crops that we grew. And what grows on wheat barley and rye? Ergot.

And these are psychedelic substances. And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created and then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion. All of these things are downstream of, like, we have more time. We can think about this stuff. But what if they're downstream of the tripping that occurred? And if you talk, if you look at actually,

“you know, the immortality key by Brian Murrescu, he will openly say, "I think these mystery”

rituals go way back before the Greeks." And so, and you had pre-socratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about. Hydroger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes back

to that, that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this thing of like,

our Mushroom sort of symbiotic, you know, Kardashev forest scale aliens that, you know, our Trojan horses for their own species that like we ingest, they get into us. And then they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception. And, you know, it goes back to the mechanic. McKenna actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest. And he says about the Mushroom, he says, he's speaking to the Mushroom and the Mushroom says, "Within my memory exists the blue prints

for hyperlight drive ships." So it's like the Mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go interstellar. And think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics, you know, so who are we to say that our evolution is not being co-directed or assisted by, you know, something else? And we're now saying this and the, you know, we're saying this with bacteria and other things like that. That, you know, it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy, you know,

“biological evolution occurs. But, you know, I think, I think, you know, mushrooms are really great”

candidate. Also, humans mistake human tissue for fun, fungal diseases. We're so susceptible to fungal disease because human and mushroom DNA are actually very similar. Human and mushroom and my cellular DNA are more phylogenetically similar than humans and plant DNA. Yeah, mushrooms are pretty there. There you go. Just like, well, you tell people that they go, whoa. Yeah, and they're American survive in a vacuum. And a vacuum in their very homeostatic in nature, they like can like

eat plastic in certain situations and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth. If you get out of line too much or something, it's like they'll, you know, and then think about people that take mushrooms. They become more like conscientious vis-a-vis the entire earth. So they're they're very sort of like, um, they're all about ecological balance. It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop the anti-war movement in the civil rights

movement through water on like one of the most profound compounds that exist on earth. Totally.

“And Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct too. Is he so? I think says wife thought that”

I believe so. I believe so. I think there's a quote around really. Yeah. How so was he a CIA construct? Well, I think it was it's similar to the like tomoneel chaos theory with Manson where it's like he looks like a hippie smells like a hippie was living with Dennis Wilson this, you know, Beach Boys or whatever and then and then he commits murder. So like and then you have the Joan Ditty and Quote that like that's the day the 60s ended, you know, the date the date of the

Tate lobby oncomer. So I think it's maybe somewhat similar here where it's like

too much and you're like you're there's actually a quote from Abby Hoffman

who was obviously, you know, big hippie at the time or he's like we were just upright, you know, Berkeley students who were protesting and then here came the the flower children from LA and Laurel Canyon and stuff and they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns and

“they like they were they were just sort of really crazy. And so I think the theory is that Timothy”

Lary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash similar to the Manson thing. Well, they also had like weird connections to like biker gangs, right? Like didn't the Ken Keesie and the Mary pranksters have weird connections

with like the Hell's Angels. Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hell's Angels?

I think there's some sort of connection. I might be making that up. I'm feeling very vague on this but I believe they party together quite a bit, which is like if you were I mean I guess you're both outcast of society you know I guess you could kind of chalk it off to that you know like that maybe if you're hanging out and weird places you're going to meet weird people. Yeah I totally yeah and I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction that's the only one that's the

“agent but even the the connection with biker gangs like biker gangs did you read Hell's Angels?”

No it's really great. It's one of I think it's Hunter's breakout book and it was before

like it was very clear that he was sort of blurring the lines between fiction and reality

like with literature like a literary license but what what essentially happened was these guys came home from Vietnam completely disillusioned they'd killed a bunch of people they'd been shot at they'd seen their friends die they didn't want to have any fucking part in this society anymore and they just wanted to ride motorcycles and be free and this is what started sort of the biker movement in America and when you think about the people that were in Vietnam well Vietnam

was all about drugs to begin with the whole reason why we wanted control over that area of the world that's the golden triangle that's where they're bringing in all the opium that's where there was fucking billions of dollars of drugs coming through there same as Afghanistan the very similar in that way is that we conveniently find like really important conflicts that we have to be involved in it just happened to be the hubs of massive amounts of drug money and so when these people were

over there they were a lot of them were doing drugs a lot of them were hooked on drugs a lot of them came back and suffered through withdrawals then when they returned to America and so those are the type of people that you would imagine would be like well fuck this life yeah you know I am just gonna do whatever I can and I'll ball fucking rob the man all whatever we're gonna figure out a way to make our own society and we're gonna be outlaws

“just out there yeah out and do drugs and and that's what they did and so it kind of makes sense”

in a way that they would sort of meet the you know the flower children and Ken Keesie and the Mary pranksters and Timothy Leary kind of makes sense that they would have interaction with each other I feel like the boomers in that period like the late sixties early seventies had this opportunity okay Leary's research is rumored to be linked to CIA which allegedly provide funded funding CIA was greatly interested in the effects of mine altering drugs in the 1960s

and its drug research was incorporated into the controversial MK Ultra experience according to Walter Boart, Leary admitted working for the CIA since 1962 as an important national asset he's quoted by Boart as follows I would say that 80% of my movements 80% of the decisions I made were suggested to me by CIA people I like the CIA exclamation point this is crazy the game they're playing is better than the FBI better than the SIGON police better than

Franco's police better than the Israeli police there are thousand times better than the KGB so it comes down to who are you going to work for the Yankees or the Dodgers what that's crazy what that's mad yeah so it was a very weird six months he spent conveniently right after he got all the army as a non-commissioned officer mm so he spent six months at Ohio State Jamie all leads back to Ohio road lead to

a very weird thing that seems out to me boy he just keeps coming back to Ohio just his number one rabbit hole oh I know we talked about it yeah right pat there right

abstain research hmm they just took his name off the uh he was removed from the board

“or head of the board chairman of the board who did uh wexner uh because they”

have seen stuff real just now just recently a bit I mean it took a bit of time I don't know who's responsible over there the right pat stuff is nuts yeah that's that's well that's weird because that is the place when it was it was right airfoil field at the time right would they think that they brought the roswell crash to exactly yeah yeah and that would be the place where you'd bring it to because they were reverse engineering German pulse jet engines

so be it makes that's sort of thing mm mm and there was this rumor of a blue room there that actually there's a there's a crazy video of um Barry Goldwater who was a future presidential candidate obviously senator from Arizona and he's talking about Curtis Lemais chief of staff of the

“Air Force and he's like I ask Curtis Lemais to show me into the blue room at right paterson”

because it's this famous you know allegedly sort of alien you know storage facility

and he goes he cussed me out of the room I've never seen him get more angry at me so yeah

oh shack outside Phoenix these senator disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs but he does confirm a disturbing story about an exchange with general Curtis Lemais report me a spaceship landed and was all hushed up quite as nobody ever I call this lmaa and I know we have a room it was a worse audio ever I've never heard him get man but he got mad or nail at me crushed me out said don't ever ask me that question again that's the audio by the same

guy who did the video inside the UFO they just trying to fuck with us it's just they're trying to fuck with us that's also a really interesting aspect of this whole concept of whether or not consciousness is rendering these things if you're if you're dealing with this reality that's like subtly unfolding in front of you you kind of would have it a little funky a little weird a little blurry a little odd like what better way to slow drip introduce it to the general public then to

give it to you in these weird blurry videos not like some 4k crazy video of a fucking mothership size of a football field flying over a city undeniable now let's give you some fucking black and white night vision of a up circle going in the ocean coming out of the ocean where you're like what is that women are gonna what are the well that is a transmedium device that is gone into the water without creating a splash think it's out of the water it's going 300 knots under the water like what

exactly what no it's almost like it's like you said it's meant to fuck with us yes we are the end product is our belief system and in jokbalay writes about this concept of intermittent reinforcement which comes from the psychologist bf scanner which is like if you give a rat cocaine for example and you give it regularly like on the dot every day or whatever it'll like you know come back and forth and like it'll not care as I mean it's cocaine so it'll probably want it but like

if you give a rat cocaine intermittently randomly sporadically it'll freak out and just get a obsessed and maybe cocaine's not the best example but any anything sweet you know it will become obsessed with the thing because there's something about the intermittent see that makes it special if it's regular it doesn't care it knows it's there knows it's gonna be there at all times

“and so I think there's something about the UFO phenomena where it's trickstery it always leaves”

a variable left to be questioned and the end product is the person's obsession for truth after

the fact yeah because there's there's never gonna be this smoking gun it always has a slight stigma

attached to it that almost like a design feature of UFOology itself is the fact that I've never seen a field where there is and this much evidence but there is very little incontrovertible smoking gun evidence there is this much there's so much evidence that like you know I had Michael Schermer you know famous skeptic on my show I know you've had on you know many times and I feel like I ran circles around him because he's not engaging with these really important

really argue with or you can convince any reasonable person that there is something going on

and then it's very hard to figure out exactly what and for whatever reason there's this like

“sort of mystery box smoking gun that you know maybe ballbozara has seen you know David Grush I think”

is this really fascinating person because he has you know he brought forward 40 people who claimed to have firsthand knowledge to the intelligence community inspector general so that makes him pretty special because he has this like really bird's eye vantage point of you know from around all this stuff and he's obviously he himself has an idetic memory he's you know somewhat on the spectrum and so which you know he he talks about so he has this like really really kind of crazy

attention to detail so it makes him this really interesting sort of person and you have you have

things like that and then like I don't know if there's a saucer and a hangar at right pat like you know I love to see it it'd be awesome and then you get into this sort of well you know if that's like a payload delivery system then obviously we can't see it because it's like this national security thing but it's almost like a design feature of the thing itself like if you were to tell chocolate in 1975 or you know in the 60s when he was jailing Heinrich's assistant hey like this is

“how much progress we've made on UFOs I think from the perspective of disclosure he might be pumped”

about the last 10 years but from the perspective of like understanding what the fuck they are he'd be like I like I had the best theory back then I you know really get theories so like it's it's really crazy we're in the Stone Age on this stuff actually somebody who's like really up on I think he's I think he's he's he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure but he's like blown by a lot of people has tombed along the point going 82 crazy right he's like I thought he was a

loon when he came on my show but more and more as time has gone on the things that he said have been proven to be true totally and now and I don't want to talk too much out of turn but like I'm friends with him and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness and how like these events sort of occur when things are really unstable so like either to discard things that are

unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system all nuclear or to save something that is essential

to preserve the system so it's like almost this like regulatory it's really fascinating it's like he's he's now miles ahead of you know I think we're at a lot of you know to me I was always like okay why are they bringing tombed along in to have conversations and now you know like like he was being sort of briefed by very high-level intelligence people right yeah yeah and that whole story of the two the stars academy is a strange interesting it's all fucking weird it's also weird

that you would get the fucking drummer or the what did he do in Blink 22 I think he was a frontman I think frontman yeah not the drummer obviously like that you get a guy who's a big time rock star he was obsessed his entire life and I think so yeah I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people and in certain cases not so savory people yeah just people who are associated with some sort of information yeah or like you know James Clapper who like you know

probably lie in front of Congress about wire tapping so like why should we trust you know you are folks stuff you know and I'm not saying that you know Tom was necessarily I don't know who exactly he was in touch with but I think it was like that crowd of you know people but I think people people don't understand and this is what I piece together from just knowing him I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot like a lot of these people like shut the door in his face

and he was like no well fly out there and I'll do anything and like I'll help like communicate this way I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the to the public and like maybe I can help or whatever and I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know and his like true passion for this that started from when he was a kid and that was like super organic but you also have to think like if you wanted to get a narrative out there what better way than

get a really famous rock star sure he knows some horses shit yeah yeah it's possible yeah yeah yeah

“but also if you read secret machines I think there's a lot then that's you know he's written”

some books actually and if you read the books there's some really interesting things kind of hidden in plain sight that end up getting corroborated in my own open source research so I'll give you an example he says that a UFO possibly came out of the sky during a high altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands in the early 60s so these are these famous you know bikini a told

yeah during the starfish prime series and I thought that you know that was not it's like what do you talk like a UFO came out of the plume I know they show up around nuclear sites but really did the UFO come out of the plume so I end up interviewing this guy he's a presidential advisor to JFK LBJ Nixon and Ford and he is 89 years old completely like sharp as a tack like with it and just has this elite kind of macro kind of you know exact picture of the world in this

“head I think you work closely with Kissinger and like just really knew his sort of stuff when”

it came to just prosaic conventional political trends you know outside of UFO stuff and he had been tweeting some interesting things about UFOs and then he starts going into this

story and I'm like like so basically he goes I was in charge of the cost assessment for one of

these high-altitude nuclear tests it's the it's called the blue-gill triple prime test part of the starfish prime series in 1962 in October actually during the Cuban missile crisis this was October 25th and he goes we didn't have any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs at the time so we exactly this is the gift plan I can't control the video so it's trying to look so this is this is the video of the test and that white triangle was superimposed on and there that's the UFO

falling out of the plume which is insane so explained again okay so so basically falling out of the plume a possible UFO object yeah that well you know about the images that were were taken what you know those what it what is the the method that was used where they observed reflective things in the sky from what was it was it radar or what you do you know I'm talking about Jamie we've discussed this before

like they have a photographs of the sky they have some sort of an image of the sky from the

“1960s and they showed that there were multiple things that were metallic that were I think you”

might you might be talking about Beatrice V Rial this Stockholm University Astro physicist she's amazing

so I'll get back to this in a second but but she basically has these uh astronomical plates from the Palomar Observatory which is what it is Palomar Observatory was the most prominent observatory in use at the time and she has these transients that she's she's gotten on these astronomical plates the plates have basically this um a motion that's sensitive to light so that you know uh basically when light goes through you know the the optical circuitry of the

tell telescope and then it hits the plate you see like stars and planets and all sorts of things you have a record of what's in the sky right and she saw 105,000 what she calls transients which are light reflecting mirror-like objects probably in geostationary orbit which is where

“I think we see a lot of UFOs and this is before Sputnik before a man might made satellite”

was ever in space this is from 1949 to 1957 it gets crazier because a PhD from um Vanderbilt University named Stephen Bruel then correlated those transients they show up more around nuclear detonations nuclear tests it's wild and you have people like Brian Keating and you know so being a awesome folder who are like conventional physicists who are talking about this now who are like yeah we don't really have a perfect debunk on this put some people of throne cosmic rays at it

some people have said you know um uh yeah solar rays but neither of those make any sense and then then there's a a former NASA astronomer named ivo busco who showed that some of these transits have uh they're called it's called the coma which is like a little kind of it looks like a little comet tail on the transient and that gets created by the optical circuitry of the telescope itself so the number one debunk on Beatrice was that these transients were artifacts of

chemical staining and like issues they call plate defects and ivo busco is basically saying no

the light is going through the telescope it's going through the telescope so it has to be an artifact of something outside of the telescope so you you're left with one conclusion which is UFOs and then you get into the fact that NASA has what are called like uncorrelated targets all the time like there's noise and there's transients that are detected all the time in the sky and we just sort of rule it out all the time so it's it's really crazy and it's i think it's very

hard to debunk and if she figures if she proves this to be true this is a not only Copernican level discovery it is greater than that it is it is a wild wild discovery and i have i don't know i

beyond my pay grade when it comes to the science but i have not heard one good debunk on it not one whoa yeah you would love talking there it's also there's some speculation about some of these things falling from the sky that they took place because of these high altitude nuclear tests so that's what this blue guil triple prime test so this is an example so Tom Delong wrote about this starfish prime test in secret machines and a lot of this stuff is sort of you know a code's hidden in plain sight

and he had amazing sources i mean one of his sources is this general who's now missing uh

William Neil McCaslin who was in charge of the entire special access program oversight committee and what he told Tom is he goes uh you want to know about the ufo issue all you're going to

“find or a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant which is i think the whole”

fallacy of modern ufo disclosure it's not like there's this line in the sand oh here's the truth we're going to give it to you it's like oh we have this program here and this program here and we're testing this stuff but we don't really understand what it is and it's kind of confusing and so okay so so Delong writes about the starfish prime you know test right where this ufo comes out of the

plume i interview this guy here old mower and who is well known in DC circles is this like a

elite statesman outside of ufo's like it's just kind of renowned good you know very impressive reputation he discusses being in charge of cost assessments for this specific starfish prime test called the blue gil triple prime test where you put this x-ray device within the nose cone of a Thorx one missile and it's specifically so that when you know uh uh uh uh the new the new cadetnates the x-ray blast then can take out any surrounding ICBM so it's it's there was no way to

guarding on soviet ICBMs this was the way to do it he said in my interview with them that in fact all along you know this this may have been this sort of toy to take out ufo's as well his his mentor by the way is Richard Bessel who uh was the number two in the entire cia in founded area 51 and yeah wild whoa yeah and so he is in charge of the cost assessment for this thing he says that there's this he gets briefed on it and he finds out that this object comes out

of the plume of this thing and he goes what is going on he goes I want access to that this thing

“and he gets like I think kind of stone wall the little bit he ends up at the sandia complex”

and new mexico one of these national labs and Lawrence Preston geys who found went on to found DARPA and his Jeff Bezos his maternal grandfather hands him pieces of the ufo and he says and very sadly passed away a few weeks after I interviewed him so there's so much more you know we wanted to learn and know about you know about this testimony but he says he held the pieces of the ufo in his hand and there's a freedom of information act request around

the starfish prime series saying I want all records from uh the starfish prime series on uav's ufo's uap's every acronym related to ufo's and uh the national nuclear security administration gets back and they say uh you know the responsive records that you asked for uh you know we we referred them to the to the right subject matter expert implying that there are responsive records that there are records from the national nuclear security administration which guards all nuclear secret around ufo's

“at the time there's also a guy named david noble white crow who i think was a different starfish”

prime test claimed to see ufo like on his navy ship um there's a guy named bob jacobbs uh who i've interviewed who is a photo instrumentation specialist who says that um there were rumors of an object having fallen you know uh down from the sky in fact if you look at the navy deck logs i just interviewed the um navy's uh former chief oceanographer named a guy named tim galidet he is as well versed in navy deck logs is anybody and as you know credentialed and qualified to read them

as anybody and he says that these look very anomalous and weird and like they retrieved something and i think there was an outage on one of the ships and there was an admiral named admiral starbird who is named i guess who is the senior officer present afloat who flew in a in a huff at 4 a.m. once this thing was retrieved he flew at 4 a.m. back state side so this is a much better video so they're two vantage points and both were eg and g plans and eg and g comes up all over nuclear sort of stuff

and um kettle one and kettle two and it kettle two and there's actually an Australian intelligence

named jeff crook shank it doesn't amazing analysis of all this stuff and he calls this the kettle

one footage where you can see the UFO coming out and the kettle two footage is this it looks exactly

it's an emotion defect it's a well you know whatever he he he went to he he he he asked for a mandatory

“a declassification review of this thing and i think the guy in charge of it was a guy in biron”

wrist vet and that guy goes we lost the we lost the video we lost the video so it's either an emotion defect or you lost the video but like you have multiple stories it's just like roswell where it's like you have it's either crash dummies or it's a weather balloon or it's just a you know or it's project mogul high altitude radar balloon you have three different stories or it's just fucking aliens you know so it's really crazy and and his wiki pita was completely changed and

destroyed the day the day after it was totally messed up and this hit piece was written about him and it was it was it was it was actually after he died so it was really fucked up because it was like

kicking the sky after he passed away and it was I think it was such an amazing courageous testimony

that I I think will stand the test of time why do you think they attacked him just to try to dismiss whatever he was saying to throw mud on it I think a lot of counterintel in the space is not necessarily trying to shut down conversation entirely but it's throwing mud on it it's keeping it in this liminal space of like I don't know could have happened but so they called they moved him from presidential advisor to japanese wailing lobbyist because he worked with every prime minister in

Japan since to konna in the 70s and so they're in and down to Shinzo Abe and they're calling him like like there was some scandal or something and like that that was what they were identifying him with was this wailing lobby it's so crazy so good at that there's so good at throwing mud on things it's so great and it was infuriating to be honest it was really upset because here was a guy who he just pattern matched to this like really you know brilliant guy and he

had all these other amazing things to say about global macro politics JFK's assassination all these

interesting things and you're just like kind of really you know messing with his legacy or you're kicking him when he's when he's after he passed away it's fucked up it is fucked up but that is what they do yeah what is your take on witley striber i think i love witley as a person and i think he his it's probably one of those things we're in upstate New York you know as he describes in communion something probably happened he probably is one of these people who like

you know if if we are nodes of consciousness that attract you know either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality his is wide open you know he is he is extremely high in the openness category and i think that's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiences because i think they are often very credulous but that goes hand in hand with having a lot of weird experiences and so i think

witley's gotten stuff wrong i do and you know hopefully don't come down on me you a folk community for saying that i think he's i think he is said some wacky things that i'm like like

“what i know well we talked about one of them i don't know if you remember that which one was it”

it was like he said that there was a fly yeah i remember that one yeah i brought that one up before because i remember watching a video i'm like okay what are you doing because it was a fly he's like he's got a man in a suit yeah i was like wait i can't find that video by the way i've tried very hard to find that video after the fact i i think very strange stuff does go on you know what he says he says i was picked as a node for disclosure because of the plot it would be

plausibly deniable it's what you're talking about where there's there is he's this whore he was this whore writer he was a fiction writer before he had his encounter which is also part of the problem it's part of the problem credible imagination it's for sure and then it's also a part of his ability to decide it's why communion was a best seller so it's a weird like it creates this like sort of cult like mythology and then i look i know a lot of experiences where i'm like

i know that i mean i really believe them that they've had experiences with you know graze specifically and it's a very common trope that they'll walk by communion in like a barns and noble bookstore and it'll freak them out and that will be like their own hypnotic regression the book

like they've never seen a gray before and that's the first time they've seen a gray

yeah the cover of the book is amazing it's amazing who else had a book called communion remember we had them on and we're like do you know that your book is the same title is a whittly

“striber book but it's completely different who remember that jamey someone like fairly recently”

we have too many people on this one show my hard drives could jadey fans that's right

he didn't really have a good explanation for that he put him on that and he kind of laughed

“very uncomfortable because yeah i think with all due respect to mr. fans what i really like as a”

person i think he's a very nice guy i think he's signaling to the tribe it is it is it's a political mck you're not looking at the data like he says all i want to look into the UFO issue i just haven't had the time i actually understand that there's a lot going on in the world you know but it's also you've had some time so maybe you know go go look anyway but it kind of understand

it but kind of don't i'm with you you know i'd get me the first time i'm going to go to church

like listen bro look into it look into it exactly to quote any bravo look into it yeah it's um weird that you would say it's demons but i think that much like talk across and has sort of alluded to this as well i think there's a certain aspect to people that are believers right okay when i say believers i'm talking about like christian believers believers in the Bible believers in the the narrative that comes along with christianity you know and that for them

“there's like if you say i believe their demons like he's on our side there's you know there's a”

there's you will you will attract those people they will resonate with certain people and i do

think very unfortunately there are politicians that say things we both know this that they don't

necessarily believe because they think that their base wants to hear it totally yeah yeah you're your traditionalist you're like it what you know why do we have to deal with this new agey bullshit you know it's just you know go back to the scripture there demons oh wow like it oh this guy's talking exactly and then it's a cut ends the conversation because then it's like okay but if there are demons there are angels too and what is a demon and what is an angel

well so where's the evidence of these demons are doing anything demonic well here's where it gets interesting which is if you actually talk to a jock delay who i do think is probably as deep as anybody as far as decades studying the stuff going to you know a hundred plus crash sites talking to probably thousands of experiences and he'll often say you know some of this stuff does pattern match to demonic behavior where it is sort of this you know

getting you to chase your tail it's you know they you're paralyzing you you know in some cases it's sort of you know angelic as well in the case of you know mario and michael it's they say do not fear do not fear that's exactly what Daniel and the Bible heard you know on the banks of the Tigris do not fear is is is if if the Bible if if the angels and the Bible have like a you know catchphrase it's do not fear and so he actually notes that there are some similarities so I think

the they're two failure modes right it's the end of the conversation like you know i'm a religious i don't want to hear it sort of thing and then on the other side it's like you can't even look at the Bible as data or like any past mythology or lore as possibly overlapping with you know sulfur and ammonia seem to be the smell sulfur is the sign you know so you know what what would that being you know at virginia you know where uh that thing crawling around that

probably would have been called a demon like a thousand two thousand years ago there's really a look at it it was like a weird color body with red eyes and look like it had like these tiny little horns totally by the way i just interviewed the Brazilian the former Brazilian defense minister and i brought up virginia and it goes i believe it happened whoa yeah whoa so we're making progress allegedly allegedly well then there's also the guy who was physically in contact with the died

“the guy yet yeah yeah well yeah exactly yeah james fox watch moment of contact if you want to know”

or we're talking about basically you have 15 to 20 people alive today in the small town in virginia 130,000 you know person town and they knew nothing about roswell UFOs you know there's just

town in Brazil and in 1996 in January james fox is amazing researcher documentary has triangulated

the flight path of this kind of tick tack object that came down this uh uh this ultra light pilot in geography teacher named Carlos disosa was first on the scene he smells all you know these sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell he actually holds the material apparently and then it's it's taken from him by i guess he says this you know nearby military base 15 minutes later he has this sort of men in black experience where somebody comes up to him at a gas station seems to know

everything about him and his family and swears him to secrecy meanwhile the beings are running around

who i've met and interviewed who is the chief neuro surgeon basically like probably the most senior guy in virginia but i think even senior you know in Brazil as far as you know neuro surgeons go he uh says that he he treated this being and that or i guess he he was face to face with the being for four minutes and he was checking the work of this of his colleague who had treated the being who had done this like minor surgery on the being and apparently if you go to this hospital

and you say like hey you know is this the being where the ET was treated though we're like yeah yeah this is it and in virginia itself has a big saucer yeah you know that in homage to this

“entire event it's amazing well that's what's up i was just i hate i hate doing this but”

please do i just was looking up like you know uh proplexity i asked virginia you info incident

debunked or not never have done that before and i've never heard this brought up uh this is a

known guy his name is moodinio from that area and he isn't the exact same position as the alien picture yeah weird yeah but if you if you if you treated that guy for a headwind he would know that right right he's uh and is he smell like soul man with disabilities who's report this he'm crouching and heavy rain that they did a 600 page inquiry because it's weird dirty or unusual military's uh could he have flown in on a craft with and again just was he so stinky that when the

the officer brought him into the hospital the guy died of a bacterial infection that couldn't treat that's the crazy thing then there's this guy Marco Shirazi who's the soldier that grabbed the EC being an apprehended it and his whole family knows about this and then he gets an autopsy i i interviewed the guy who did the autopsy and he was like this was like this gnarly form of this

bacteria that i've never seen in my life and the guy who's president of IT b i ipd which is

“the company that does the autopsy report he even said yeah i think it was from the nail of the ET”

accidently you know that the being didn't mean any harm to this guy but there was a puncture wound and it created this horrible you know viral infection and he died or anything is bacterial infection and he died of that so crazy yeah what i mean the virginia one is really crazy like there's so many people that but then the problem is like i would love to have talked to them in 1996 individually without them knowing that this is going to be a global story and when that when they

can all sync up their memories i know i know and i'm praying that we get a case like that you know at some point where it's it look it's better than raw as well 1947 you know we're really reading the tea leaves on that so it's 1996 you have 15 to 20 people alive who have either either saw the craft or the being that's pretty amazing the young ladies there were girls at the time and then when they get interviewed later when they're grown women and they're talking

“about the incident it's very strange but i think the strange one is the cop who goes to see”

the crash he starts weeping and he starts really i'm like okay well either this cop is the best

actor that's never been in a movie ever or he's having a real response to some sort of crazy

memory of an event that was Carlos de Souza the geography teacher and he led them around to your point for two hours or something before finding that spot and i i think if you were acting you'd be like yeah that would this is the spot you wouldn't like be like you wouldn't be like what wait there was a white shed there and it's not here anymore and confused and apparently there was a white shed there that was removed or whatever and then finally when he sees the spot you just see him palpably

break that it's not this unless yeah you know taking some acting class on the side and now you're fucking genius the next Daniel Day Lewis like what are you doing waste your time and Brazil telling you our first stories he could all he would young man yeah it's but it's also the problem is i want to believe it it's also the problem you know i don't want to believe it's like the thing about like roswell in particular roswell it is become an industry right there's the

the whole tourist trap thing there's the little grey big bites things and nickmacks it stores so you know it's like it's got this whole connection to it it does it's its own cottage industry it becomes people's identities and they come up and want to keep it going and they're talking about like and this other thing happened to me too wait you know yeah come back sort of things but did you see the conversation that Travis Walton had with bombs are in a diner yeah that was on my

buddy show Chris Ramsay here we don't we're way to do a show of a diner in the like you have these two guys sitting across from each other's very odd how they did it but i didn't think that was

between you know there counts and yeah things that line up and they don't they those two guys are

“also kind of again in that top tier of like you spend time with them i haven't spent time with”

Travis Walton but i have with Bob and it's like you know this it's like a really hard to poke holes in the story and they just to go back to our original you know OG the top of this conversation like the pattern matching is just there with him he doesn't seem like a bullshitter Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter at all and i talked to him for several hours and you know before and after the show and he's also a guy who's had the same story for 50 years

it's the same story yeah it's the doesn't really vary they all took a lot of texture tests yeah one of the guys that was a part of the crew actually hated him we got in a fist fight with him the day of the event and he told the exact same story yeah and he came back there was missing time and he came back with a full ground beard five days later five days later yeah it's very strange but his clothes weren't dirty he's like any of this insane story and they all

stuck to the same story yeah yeah well they thought those guys killed him at first so they were

they did they were questioning yeah they're like where the fuck is he and they're telling the story like what and then he comes back five days later and tells the story and they're like what is like what did you guys all plan this like what the fuck is going on but it doesn't seem like they did so trapping he like touched the craft and it was at this electromagnetic charge or something like bounced off of it either touched or you got close to it right got close to it and that's

common to yeah maybe you got close I don't know but that's common for UFO experiences where it's like you experience like weird electromagnetic effects where it's like almost like you're getting a sunburn where you get like you know UV dammit it's actually in closing counters of the

third kind it's depicted where you know Richard Dreyfus literally has a sunburn after he's

in one side of his face where it was to the left of his face because it was outside of the day yeah exactly and Mario Woods also in in Ellsworth you know South Dakota he also had had burns and he didn't know

“where they came from they took skin samples and what they'd discover I don't know I think that”

part's classified unfortunately god wouldn't you just love to have an actual experience yourself I mean imagine thinking about all the time you spent studying this and you haven't had an actual experience yourself I've seen UFOs but I have it I know I haven't had a close encounter of the of the third kind what have you seen I saw in Laurel Canyon I saw a UFO and then in silver at like I saw the weird place of the sea about in L.A. with that look like one was I told one of them

on your I think I told both of them on your ship but one was like a school bus sort of which really weird it was like you know kind of you know rectangular and it was hovering like right above the tree tops it was not very high and it was sort of silent moving over the tree tops and I was with a friend at the time and she saw the UFO like descend over the tree tops like like like go into some you know we were in a residential areas in Laurel Canyon and so that was

very strange I didn't see that I didn't see it sort of descend I just saw it go over and it but it looked like a floating again school bus like a thing and there's like no visible propulsion it was this strangest thing. How fast was it moving? That's hard for me to say I don't know not fast not fast like you could have been a balloon the eye there's no way really no why because it was floating like a balloon like because it was like helium balloon yeah I get I get maybe

it could have been a balloon maybe maybe I don't know it was like it was right above the tree tops and you heard this sort of little hum and I don't know I don't I don't know I don't think it was a balloon but maybe it was a balloon I mean think about blimps like if you didn't know what a blimp was and you saw that thing flying around like oh my god but I've seen plenty of blimps and they're

“usually like really high and this thing like but they don't have to be right that's how they come”

down yeah right this thing was definitely not a plan but I get I don't remember the exact you know details is to what no noise like kind of like a low basey thing but no like not normal not normal propulsion no like a basey like it was like like a yeah that's sort of like the fan that's moving the balloon but not not at all like a you know a chopper or a we're playing or anything and yeah I don't know as far as it just looked metallic like if it was a blimper something it would have

was like you know perfectly metallic and shiny but like my war balloons they look vermetallic yeah

“but I think you could see that it was floating you could see that you know possibly that it was moving”

with the wind and this didn't look like it was moving with the wind at all looked like it was sort of moving against the wind I mean not not necessarily moving against it but moving agnostic to the wind is wondering if there was a way where you could sit down and conjure up an experience with something would you do it conjure up and expect what do you mean like if you could in a meditative state access like whatever connection and and have like a Betty and Barney hill type

experience I wouldn't try to artificially do that necessarily I mean I would I would love to

have an experience but maybe organically like if it's sort of you know meant for me sort of thing but

that is there are whistleblowers who've come out this guy like Jake Barber for example that talks about essentially programs forcing people systematically to conjure up these sorts of experiences

“right that's why I asked yeah yeah yeah yeah no and I think there's so I think there's a long”

tradition of communing with these sorts of things that goes back to like kind of merit kaba cobalistic practices you know neoplateness would call it the urgey like you know kind of communing with deities and I don't think it's a coincidence that I think there are aspects of you know Stephen Greer say what you will about the guy c5 their aspects of that that are maybe similar to some of these sort of protocols you know that involve sort of communing with these things and

traditionally you're not supposed to do this stuff unless you are like fully like a pure intent you're probably older like you're not supposed to start kabaula for example until you're 35 yeah I think you're supposed to be married as well you're supposed to be like very rooted in reality interesting yeah so and then there's like a Jewish mysticism right that's a Jewish mysticism but there are Christian versions of it and you know I think they're yeah they're they're they're

versions of it kind of a cross history then then you'll plate nests out of virgin a version of it as well so you know I think this is uh something that yeah I think the Jews had it with you know is he keels wheel and the kind of America by texts but I think there's there's more yeah well the weird stuff when you get into the Bible itself is the stuff that wasn't put in the Bible I know here get a say the inox stuff that's so weird the inox stuff's really weird yeah and when

they find it in these clay tablets and cumeron along with books in the Bible like the book of Isaiah was also in there like okay what what was that and how and how much that sounds like Greek mythology like these gods sort of mating with mankind yeah and apparently it's still in the Ethiopian Bible the Ethiopian Bible has the all of the books of inox all the different tales of the watchers and the book of the watchers and all that stuff where they came down and mate with the daughters of

men who created the Nephilim that's in the Ethiopian Bible that is so trippy it's so trippy it's so trippy and then they create the Nephilim and then you get into the Timothy Alberina stories which you know yeah I know he was on your podcast where there might be giants in Afghanistan that the Air Force has encountered in the early 2000s and you had Devon Lerat on as well you know was he famous arm wrestler is that right who served for the Canadian special forces in Afghanistan

and it's all man there was like massive it was like eight feet tall and I think a mutual friend of ours Brigham Bealer shout out ways to well they're the best he has an employee who also I think with special forces in Afghanistan and he says that there were there were I think you know large beings there like giants there as well so like a bunch of like anecdotal and that's just us that's just you know yeah it's fucking super weird and do you know that these the the latest

take on the the Denisovins or Denisovins however you want to say it you know which is a very recent

discovery I think the first even recognition that there was another type of human called the

“Denisovin I think that's how they pronounce it I always say Denisovin they believe they might be”

much larger than human beings now they used to think that they were squat like neanderthals and thick brows and but now they realize their heads were much larger than ours and that these could potentially

this put this the perspective uh perplexity when was the discovery of Denisovins or Denisovins? I want to say

it's real recent like maybe 2016 or something like that like real recent where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species I feel like we have discovered a large percentage of hominids in 2010 okay so okay they found that in Siberia in 2008 it was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010 the key fossil small finger bones been excavated from the Denisovah cave in Siberia in 2008 but DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed it belonged to a

“population distinct from both theanderthals and modern humans I think they have more now than just”

the finger bone and I think that is where they're getting at I think they have skulls

varies why but and uh highest known oh this is people who have the DNA so disobeyed DNA estimations melanation populations especially people with ancestry in Papua New Guinea and nearby Pacific Islands roughly four to six percent of their genomes that's interesting what uh let's find out how many bones they have available because I think there's I think there's brow ridge bones and there's skull bones that seemed to indicate that it had a larger

her larger skull than humans and they think how much bone has been recovered or found let's find out very little um Denisovins are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils not complete skeletons do they have skull they have a mandible partial lower jaw from the Tibetan plateau it was identified as Denisovin through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovin DNA no complete Denisovins skull or skeleton um just google for army not excuse me search for me

“Denisovins skull like see if there's images because I think there's a brow”

like the problem is it's like you're you're looking for stuff yeah so like what is that is that

just a recreation of what it looks like well it seems like a recreation but this is what they think it look like it's like a Eugene levy situation huge eyebrows look at the the brow ridge yeah so how much is this real and what is this AI like what is this well it's fromplexity not caught up to the latest evidence like in Peru perochus skulls are 30 percent higher volume I think often then normal skull some of them are some of them are that's the weird shit with the

elongated heads that gets real weird this has a fairly elongated head as well but it's not like upwardly it's it seems to like move towards the back but as a pretty large so is that an actual so that's an actual Denisovins skull it seems like proplexity is relying on older data or older papers because I I do think that this is part of why they're saying that they think they might have been much larger hmm what's going on this is natural history what is being eaten

in a bone that they were eating high in a bone that could just pull this picture off of this website I don't know okay fossil evidence of a mysterious Southern Denisovins yet to be found replica of a homo erectus cranium so okay that's from Indonesia I know but I'm saying that's this

“picture showed up and right so that's what that is but what's so what is that image of the”

well the prominent brow ridge like that one yeah I know it's that I'm trying to track it down that's coming from a nature article that I couldn't get into in this paywall so if they haven't found this much then I think based off of it's a picture I'm seeing they probably built it off of this tooth they found hmm and then expand it out here because there's a little picture of a tooth right there but right I don't know so that seems like a job bone that they found so if that if it turns

I'm and again we're talking about something that's recently discovered they only knew that this thing existed 16 years ago which is really a part of the problem with this whole term fossil record you know we like to think of the fossil record as being a library it's not not like it's

same with the archaeological record it's the same thing well at least the archaeological record

we have physical stuff but we can look at you know socks a warm on we can look at the pyramids we're gonna we don't really know what happened and who built it but at least there's a physical stuff there that defies explanation but if you have a cataclysm fried and we probably did during the I say yeah more than likely more than likely the idea that we didn't have a cataclysm seem silly at this point it seems like there's just so much physical evidence and it's almost like

the longer we go the more hominids we find and the longer we go the older things get archaeologically yep and it's actually predictable like it makes sense that both of those would be

the case like obviously our abilities to like map and have sensors and like figure the stuff out

is increasing in lower in the sediment layer of any sort of dig it's gonna be like older stuff yes so archaeology's 200 years old literally the discoveries of the you know Babylonian cities 200

“years ago so you're in cities yeah have you seen I think he's an Italian guy there is a new”

paper that's being published about the dating of the pyramids and he's relying on erosion evidence yeah I think relative erosion method yes donini I think is that's exactly him yeah and he pushes it whoa yeah he pushes it back as recently as I thought God I want to say like 16000 and then the high end is 35000 yes it's crazy which is like what what what are you talking about like this is a 35000 year old building what does it even mean who's speaking

it did you see that they retracted this oh fully both young yes he contacted me about this he's very upset yeah they contacted it with out in the explanation without any justification my I'd like to call it nuance to take is that I think I don't think he's lying I don't think he's a fraud but I

think that he needs to just open sources method because basically you have this synthetic

aperture radar Doppler tomography which is synthetic aperture radar is a known technique for you know radar imaging and it radar images it like very fine resolution and then you have this ability to measure micro vibrations that transmit into the satellite signal the thing that is only his his and only his is this beyond the method which is this software where he is able to

“deduce these structures you know underneath the earth based on that so do I think he's lying”

about the grand Sasso laboratory which is you know this other sort of I think particle accelerator national lab out there that he was able to like perfectly measure and one point two kilometers into a mountain into a mountain yeah I would really hope not and I don't think so and but then at the same time I think it's like dude you gotta like you're you're talking about like a Nobel Prize or something here like just just let it out like either you either have to get really really rich

and keep it close source or the preference that I would have and I think that would be best for humanity it's just open source the thing and you know I think it's his life's work so I think he's a little possessive around it but that would be the one thing where I'm like dude just let it let it out or let somebody else replicate it interesting because they've used this method

“to identify structures that are known to exist and they right yeah and I think the what is it”

the shat the Osiris shaft I think yes yeah so and it's and it got the right dimensions and if it's correct and if he's telling the truth about what it was able to deem from the particle accelerator when it was looking at the particle accelerator it got the exact dimensions of it it knew where it was and so it's like we need a dig yeah we need to do something well there's all those this one thing that he brought up on the podcast those shafts that exist around there that have been

filled up with debris and sand and dirt over time that they need to clean that shit out and get down in there and find out like what is because we know that there's all these subterranean tunnels and passages that are all around Egypt like for sure they know that that labyrinth exists yes that that heroditous discovered and he talked about in great detail they knew they know from ground penetrating radar these these these great chambers in there even Zahihawas will admit that there

are tunnels underneath the smanks right so like yeah I think more likely they're not there is something underneath the pyramids yeah and then we just have to dig we got to get down there and if you're Egypt and you're the Ministry of Culture that's the most GDP boosting thing you can thank

erosion guy uh I think don't needy don't needy yeah if don't needy and beyond the first of all what a great fucking Italian duo like if if these two guys from Italy have a crack two different things one of them with erosion science and the other one with the ground penetrating Doppler tomography if those guys are correct you you're going to have like a gigantic group

“of new people that want to come and check out Egypt that would be so awesome yeah you have to”

get past these gatekeepers of the timeline the gatekeepers of the timeline really want to insist a 2,500 BC is about as good as it gets yeah and it's like it's all good it's the land that modern Egypt is on like that's fine like you can sort of like take pride in the fact even if it's older and it's not necessarily like it's still Egypt that's why it's really dumb about the critics of these theories they all want to attribute it to a bunch of different people like you and I are

fucking alien cooks and we're not trying to over saying like no it's probably people had a super advanced civilization that part of the world a long time ago and what you're getting is multiple generations of people after the fact trying to recreate some of these ancient structures and the ancient structures probably predated whatever civilization existed at 2,500 BC

“yeah and you you have to throw spaghetti at the wall like it's like it's your duty to speculate”

because the conventional narratives don't make any sense at all at all and then you have people grasping it's rather there's a French guy John Pier who Dan who is like you know civil engineering chops and he's talking about like an external ramp but then an external ramp would you know the incline would be too too high for these you know megaton bricks you know blocks so then you end up with an internal ramp as well so it's like we are grab that is like the best explanation right

conventionally and so let's let's try to figure it out and let's be a little creative and we don't need to like you know stay so narrow like all these skeptics are like they're they're you know

attack dogs for what well the problem is they don't want these Jimmy course cities and

Michael buttons and all all these people that have enormous following online to have any point

“they don't want that they want to dismiss them outright which is why they always use the same”

projoratives they always call them racists and they're white supremacy is one that they have attached to Graham which is hilarious because they're married to an Indian woman it's the whole thing is so stupid these are the most non-racist person you're ever gonna meet in life it's just completely open mind and also that doesn't take away all the factual data all the stuff that's like the stuff that's really weird that's hard to describe when you're talking about a structure

that is perfectly aligned almost to true north-south east and west and as two million three hundred

thousand stones and used to be covered in smooth limestone and somehow or another was the greatest structure that human beings have ever created and is bare minimum four thousand five hundred years old that is a mind fuck anybody who says that's not a mind fuck and when you're talking about some of the stones like particularly in the kings chamber that are hundreds of tons or are a hundred tons or eighty tons or whatever they are and it's from hundreds of miles away

through the mountains with no roads no heavy machinery and they're placed way the fuck up on the ceiling of this place it perfectly totally there's also the weird mind fuck of the sarcophagus in the kings chamber which aligns with the same dimensions where you could fit the arc of the covenant in it no way yes really oh there's a lot of people believe this there's a real problem with the measuring of radioactivity too they try to say there's there's a higher level of radioactivity

inside the sarcophagus than in the outer walls but the problem is when people talk about radiation

and stones like stones are they have a certain level of radiation just inherently you know like you can like the sun has radiation like there's there's geiger counters can go off yeah but the the people that are like the read they're really out there they think that that might have been the positioning for the arc of the covenant and that it measures like if you look at the bibles description of the dimensions of the arc of the covenant it fits conveniently inside the

sarcophagus in the kings chamber well that's crazy it is crazy what's also crazy that grand believes that the Ethiopian Bible and the these Ethiopian religious people who have

and that they are in possession of it and that these people that watch over it they all develop cataracts and they can only do it for a little while and then they wind up dying so they have like short tenures as the watchers of this whatever the fuck this object is that they're calling the arc of the covenant stories of their faces getting mangled if they walk inside he was so

“fray this was actually I think one of his first articles for like a magazine before he got”

into all this is how it got him into it in the first shot into it in the first but you know

another crazy story is I think it's uh sir James Bruce was looking for the arc of the covenant and he found the book of Enoch but he was searching for the arc of the covenant but yeah they think it's an axom Ethiopia and their Templar crosses I believe on a church there as well and so and Graham talks about this and so that's his connection because they you know they're obviously legends of the Templars being these sort of knights that guarded you know you know after after the

destruction of the temple the arc of the covenant and so maybe they actually did make it all the way down to Ethiopia which is why it's so wild if that thing was actually in the center of the sarcophagus

in the king's chamber in the pyramid whatever that thing is it's so I mean the the one maybe counter

argument or something I'd be curious about would be the Nazis were obsessed with the arc of the cot like the Indian of Jones plot is like legit the similar would go in these weird crests or whatever around this stuff and I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that war around

“around that time I believe right or like why wouldn't the Nazis just go in and try to take this”

object maybe they weren't aware maybe they weren't aware who knows this guy Olin Dorf says he went and saw it in 1941 what replica he stated that he gained access in 1941 because he spoke classic well how do you say that geese and appeared serious however he asserted the box inside was empty and described it as an empty middle to late medieval replica rather than the true biblical artifact so he's the only guy that's gained access and this was in 1941 he's a British

officer during World War II and later a professor of Ethiopian studies at the University of London interested I want to know the details like how does he know that it's an artifact or it's replica or yeah sorry that's a replica rather yeah right there I did look this up just I think yesterday oh you did rabbit hole Jamie Captain rabbit hole over here I was I found on this rabbit hole I was trying to find out where I happened to the staff of Moses I was just was thinking about

weird things that existed in history and also the Ark of the Covenant last time it was actually known where it was was 586 BC so like when Jesus was around no one knew where it was that's interesting the wall 586 so 100 years before his 600 years before Jesus wow yeah I know the walls of Jericho we're supposed to come down I think yeah the Ark of the Covenant Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem they tore down the cathedral it's also I stumbled across something called the

Madaba map have you heard of that it was found it's a mosaic of like ancient Jerusalem found

around 6 CE and it shows I've never heard of this before so I was actually trying to show you

“like the best way to describe it but it's all like ancient Greece it was a mosaic underneath”

the floor in a different church that they found all there about to make a new church so they were doing like reconstruction and they found this map of ancient it's pointing things out here this isn't the best way to describe what I'm sorry but um they've mapped it all and found things that the I think it was found in like 1895 right around 10th century so it shows like where Jerusalem was where all these things are in reference to each other and all these places that were in the Bible

and whatnot and I guess people didn't know about them and that's when some of this stuff is getting validated Jordan's Madaba map that's what it looks like that's actually it's really I mean it's it's old school you know I guess tiles and little pieces of fragments of different things that is artistic was covered up probably multiple times so while well then there's the weirdness of the arc of the covenant and the dimensions matched this object that's on Mount

Ararat which is exactly where it's supposedly it landed in the Bible what yeah really yeah yeah there's a bunch of people that firmly believe that this object on Mount Ararat is that the Moses staff this one is so this it turns out let's I don't know if this is real this is where the rabbit hole is good and row weird here it's in a palace in Istanbul I believe where there's other relics it's

10th BC somehow they got like David and Goliath why it's a king David yeah there's a bunch of

“things from Muhammad there there's like a piece of a tooth a piece of a beard well I don't and that's”

really I don't to say it's not real I don't know it just looks like a stick but the biblical like descriptions of it are that it turned into a certain serpent at one point you know this is what part of the Red Sea hmm go to the Mount Ararat stuff because the Mount Ararat stuff is really weird there there's even like a whole touristy center that you can go there with a describe it as being the the landing spot of Noah's Ark but apparently what's weird is the analysis of the ground

underneath it and that there's organic material that aligns with the dimensions of the boat

no way yeah it's really weird well just the object itself like whatever the book that is in Turkey it's on Mount Ararat just the dimensions itself fucking weird like what is that thing

“that's up there and so when they announce it like you see it has like what appears to be chambers”

and then also what it appears to be the remnants of some sort of organic material which would be wood that was just that was used at construction of this thing there was something recent about it though see if you can find like news good news this is what I saw this and I don't I just seen this video where someone's inside and they're claiming this has got to be a claim because I don't know that how they got here and where this video came is going it's this thing we're gonna meet

the UFO video and like you can get down here that's it which is a wood that's Noah's dick or let's do it yeah he's showing pieces of wood or what looks I mean it's Noah Arc stands we've got how much wood is left from two thousand years ago or more I saw the piece on Instagram I think was not the entire 45 minute there was some news of the analysis of that that I saw online April 22nd this is my red researcher believes Noah's Arc found in Turkey after new underground scans

yeah so researchers were going to Turkey say fresh scan data on this from April uncovered what appears to be tunnels inside the long debated land form bolstering their case the site may be a man-made object they believe to be Noah's Arc I do believe this is real decayed buried remnants of Noah's Arc the famous ship and we're doing our best to convince the skeptics and show the world this site the tricky thing is for carbon dating you do need organic material

oh yeah and not only that it's like the tricky thing is like the whole story doesn't make sense take two of each animal and then what happens animals eat other animals so how does that work out you've got it you know in the Bible they're supposedly weighted they waited until the animals gave birth to a bunch of different it before they ate them okay what well are you a kid it's just like I mean it literally sounds like you know like a child wrote a story

it's very very goofy but then you get into the fact that they're like 400 or so flood myths across

desperate cultures never had contact yes definitely and then you also get into the idea that

it's not maybe the whole world that flooded it's this immediate area and that this idea of he took to the beach animal maybe he just took enough animals so he could sustain agriculture afterwards and these other animals did not go extinct yeah and then maybe the story over time becomes he got fucking drafts walk there from Africa where are you getting horses you know how how are you getting eagles like how are you getting everybody on this thing

it doesn't even make sense and real discoveries are often motivated by myth like motivated by Homer and Herodidist stories about the Peloponnesian War you had this German businessman Heinrich Von Schleiman spent all his money looking for Troy and he actually found it which is wild another story would be you know um Plato talking about this flood he's talking about it in the Atlantis context obviously

“it's a it's a dialogue um and it's I think the Teméus and Creteus dialogue and this is told”

that a mythos festival 600 BC and they say 9000 years ago this great flood happened and then you line it up and that that's melt water pulse 1b which is probably the flood that got us out of the ice age so to discount myth entirely as like non-historical I think it's throwing the baby out

drives impact theory exactly the great flood and the younger drives impact theory align with the timeline that Plato how the fuck did Plato have known when he's saying 9000 years like how

“how is it so perfectly aligned that on it seems a little convenient yeah I think if there was a”

Noah's arc it was probably well first of all how does he know it's coming how long's it take

to make this boat you know that's where it gets really weird like this is guy actually have a premonition yeah is he actually like a tune to some sort of psychic energy or does God or for lack of a better term actually talks this guy right and say hey dude some shit is about to go down and didn't it take him I want to say the biblical account is it took him a hundred years to make it oh I don't even know I know that is back when they were like living for hundreds and I like

these ones of you but there's a lot of 177 years old and was 182 when he had Noah normal normal stuff was David Sinclair help us let's get back there well this is this is the real thought is if David Sinclair is correct and I think he is if they can figure out a way to somehow another access whatever part of the human genome allows us to age or causes us to age and reverse that or change that why do we not know that if you got a civilization that could

build the pyramids how do we not know that these people were also capable of extending lifespan to a hundred percent yeah and if knowledge gets lost and we're now figuring out Horavath clocks DNA methylation clocks biologically age versus chronological age yeah I'm sure you talk to bring them about all sorts of like novel crazy things he's looking into with stem cells

you know the amazing things they do like why was that not necessarily discovered before and

just a race from the historical record easily could have been if there is a cataclysmic disaster and we do have a hyper advanced civilization that's capable of engineering

“feeds that we still can't replicate today which I think is the case because there's a lot”

of people who say we could build the pyramids today fuck you okay fuck you no do has do do it go do it shut your mouth the biblical account known as family were in the arc for about a year often calculated as roughly three hundred seventy days wow they were in that boat for a fucking year that's crazy bro that sucks you think those guys are stuck in your run have it bad

Genesis dates their entry to the seventeenth day of the second month of Noah's six hundredth

year and their exit on the twenty seventh day of the second month of his six hundred and first year it rained for forty days and forty nights um how long did it take him to build the art says 120 years does not a give a precise construction time the commonly repeated one hundred and twenty years is a traditional interpretation of Genesis six three rather than explicit statement that construction itself lasted 120 years hmm well it's all you know you're getting into when you're

getting into ages like that what's really weird is it's not just the Christian Bible or the Old Testament or that has these long extended life spans that's where you get really weird because both the ancient Egyptians when you know the Zeptetty and then when you get into the ancient Sumerian kings list like there when you go the further back these motherfuckers were living thousands and thousands of years raining for thousands of years and then after the flood

you start seeing ages aligned with modern human ages which is really weird really weird yeah it's like okay what and so the way archaeologists dismiss it they say oh that was just myth but but you're along with this myth particularly with the Sumerians you have actual historical kings that had actual historical reigns that are depicted in the same the same texts so like what's

“going on a hundred percent and there I think natural selection is a real theory there are people”

who like deny it and I think it is a locally extremely useful legit theory but there's a great philosopher of uh science called Karl Popper and he had this whole thing of he called the materialist promissory notes where you have issues in evolution natural selection you have punctuated equal equilibrium this sort of rapid speciation in the fossil record things that are very hard to explain and we just like to fill in the gaps and we don't know you know there's actually a really interesting

um German uh guy named uh there's Richard Goldschmitt and he had this idea of he was an evolutionary theorist and he had this idea of hopeful monsters and so you'd get these mating between inter species

one's once in a while like it would like hit this ecological niche and like you know actually

“make sense for the local ecology and then it would sort of persist and I think he's largely been”

debunked but I spoke with this DARPA dude who was like I can say this because I we didn't end a pursuing it but you know the movie the shape of water the yellow del torcha you know it's like at one point we were thinking about stuff like that like inter species yeah yeah and I don't I don't know if it was like humans and other species but it was like inspired by this guy Richard Goldschmitt well you know the Russians were considering making a hybrid between a human and a

champad chimpanzee for war that's correct I know Putin's talked about killer dolphins no this was a god was it world war two it was world war two right so as world war two um who was it was it stolen that's crazy do we don't know if we would know a fish that this the member of the guy was doing it on his own for sure would have been stolen I don't remember see see if you can find it so they were so the idea was like look rush a loss like

“20 million men during world war two and I think the idea is like why wouldn't it be better if”

people didn't fucking die why don't we develop warriors and so I think they were trying to make a human chimpanzee hybrid specifically designed for war that's right now like I don't know if it was yeah fish luck he got and he got in trouble for uh seeking volet like um not telling the female volunteer it was going on oh Jesus you're badgen why stay put honey I'm just going to stick something up there wonderful things will happen Jesus Christ notorious Soviet era attempt but no

human ape hybrids were ever created but yes it was a real attempt Russian Soviet biology ilia even off proposed using artificial insemination to test whether humans and great apes could produce offspring in the mid 1920s okay so it was um after world war one Soviet support he traveled to French Guinea and inseminated several female chimpanzees with human sperm none became pregnant he later sought to reverse the experiment by inseminating women with ape firm historical

accounts indicate he considered doing so without consent in Guinea but colonial authorities block the plan back in Russia he sought female volunteers but the available adult male ape died before the procedure could occur so no such insemination preceded sounds like a great person yeah what great guy wonderful dude but it's like kind of crazy that that was I mean imagine if it worked and then

they just created like a million of them and just armed them well also where we had it with crisper

and the ability to you know write it to do that right also what the fuck is going to stop them from turning around and taking over Russia like why would they listen to you right like they yeah you're giving them guns they're way more violent they're super territorial they're way stronger and also they're going to recognize it you made them to go die and they're going to be really resentful of these fucking pink little fleshy fucking water balloons of of meat and tissue

that are so vulnerable compared to them it's like yeah it's like you created it's like it's playing the apes it's it's it's it's also the way people talk about it yeah it's like very analogous very

much so yeah it's uh we are always meddling we're always meddling but which makes me think

something more advanced would probably metal with us that's right just do it a little bit more subtly and they would do it at the bound like it makes sense that you opposed to me would show up around nuclear sites because those are the Archimedes lever of destruction on those are the points of most leverage the hinge points of civilizational collapse it is not a coincidence that Mario and Michael were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and saw this thing hovering

above alive hydrogen bomb that feels like it makes sense yeah you know and it like if you were governing a system you would look at those nodes right you look at that actually there's a great neuro scientist named Don Hoffman and he says if you're like guard if you're a simulator and you're guarding the simulation you look at the exit paths so I think about two exit paths in our sort of simulation one would be high energy physics so particle accelerators high voltage

experimentation and nuclear like real like stuff where you're really pushing at the boundaries

“of space time so I think that's why these things show up at national labs nuclear sites a lot of”

like really hardcore kind of experimentation and then consciousness I think that would be the other

right it also makes sense why they show up when you're sleeping right like if you're having

these encounters like all these abduction experiences the great many of them happen at night right yeah and it's an open question as to why is it evolutionarily adaptive for us to sleep right it doesn't really make sense it's terrible it's terrible and we're we sleep deeper than like most animals and so we could be walked up on by predators and there's so many nocturnal predators absolutely it's a stupid idea why wouldn't that get selected out maybe something important happens

during sleep yeah who knows yeah but like it's it seems like yeah we don't understand any that stuff the dream dreaming sleeping and it's probably adaptive in some way we don't understand yeah and like what is happening when we're sleeping I told you about my crazy dream the one crazy dream that I had that still to this day kind of it's very foggy now because it's

months months after the fact but that the day of that dream I was shook that always really shook

and almost feels like a far to analyze that dream it's like they were giving meat to these crocodiles in the water or something so it was like it was like our limbic sort of reptilian because in every man you have your sort of reptile self and then you have your like more aspirational self or something and maybe they were sort of like holding that at bay and they were you said to me you were like these beings these like future human alien looking beings

we're telling you like this is a brittle experiment like this whole thing you've got set up this could end tomorrow like we're here sort of protecting you there was a very flimsy barrier

“between the crocodiles and whatever was in the water and I was like that's it that's the only thing”

this time it was like a like a fucking like a traffic cone and some tape or something like that like some plastic bars it was like no I don't remember specifically but it was like I remember being very uncomfortable with how little protection there was to stop those things from coming out of the water so fast but also the weirdness of them like their bodies there were like very slender and kind of tall but like no muscle at all like no strength at all in larger heads

and very odd looking almost Asian looking very weird and they were playing with me a little bit like spooka me haha and it was very strange but it was so vivid that's the weird part that's what's so tripy to me where I'm like maybe it was an experience it's hard to say it's

impossible to declaratively say it wasn't right it's hard to know what a dream is in the first place

yeah like what is going on when you have vivid dreams in the first place totally yeah what yeah what is that it seems like you're working out problems like a lot of times people are

“working out issues and that's why they say sleep on it I think there's something to that old wives”

you know that the old wisdom of sleep on it it's almost like you're because it does feel like sometimes like issues that you have come up in sleep but you're almost like metabolizing that or you're like you're like working them out by experiencing them but in like a padded walls sort of way in the dream where like you don't want to work that out in 3D reality and so it's sort of adaptive in that sense or something maybe I don't know but it's weird that I've had so many

dreams that have been you know even crazy dreams like wow that was nuts but nothing like kept me from going back to sleep yeah that's what's so trippy about it is like you went and worked that right after I could not sleep I laid in bed for like an hour afterwards trying to go back to sleep I'm like I am not going back to sleep like whatever the fuck that was was way too real like way more real than any dream I'd have before if I was an alien or a future human I would definitely

visit you whatever it is it if I mean whether or not it's my imagination just hit a burst of like serotonin and dopamine and neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it was I created this very vivid thing it's either that and my super hyperactive imagination or an encounter is hard to know what it was but what it was was very different than any other dream that I've ever had before yeah well I

“that's I think that's a beautiful like that's all you can say yeah I mean but that's being honest yeah”

and that's but it also is the problem with someone having a legitimate experience like how much do they elaborate how much do they expand or how much do they try to justify their experience rather than saying I don't know what the fuck that was yeah totally I think in many cases the honest thing is I don't know what the beings were I don't know where they were from and it's so interesting that we snap to grid all of these experiences into this sort of alien motif and it's why the pentagon

now uses non-human intelligence which sounds kind of ridiculous because it could be AI or something

that it's extraterrestrial and the office that I think in bad faith likes to debunk the stuff the

Aldo main anomalies resolution office that just likes to poor core it's the modern blue book basically

they often say we have no evidence of extraterrestrial visit visit visitation because they they hinge it on that conclusion that is a conclusion there's a lot of anomalous data there's stuff showing up at our nuclear sites everywhere Donald Trump probably told inner circle aliens are living in earth's oceans I've heard he said that too that also he alluded to that remember the Jersey drone flap remember 2024 he kind of alluded to he goes we know they're coming from a garage

it's a weird place you know it's a garage we have no idea what they are but they're in the ocean

“this is according to Jack Osborne who said I think to Andy Stumpf and he said he has got a”

friend that talks to Trump frequently so I know Jack's source actually and yeah and I don't think he's lying well this is also what multiple people have said that there's something in the ocean you know and this is yeah no I just had on the navy's chief oceanographer we just talked about he was head of Noah yeah and you know he talks about the tons and tons of sightings tons of navy sightings I mean the three sightings that were popularized the videos that were popularized

in the 2017 New York Times article which is whether you like that article or not they got some things wrong very responsible for a lot of the modern kind of disclosure movement very responsible for people all the sudden taking it seriously a hundred percent yeah it's slapped that credibility on to the whole issue those were navy cases those were all navy cases the nimmits sighting go fast and gimbal were all navy and so yeah there's a long history I mean

the bluegill triple prime thing I mentioned with Harold Malmgren was navy as well you know you have timber shets saying there's five or six hot spots you know on our on ocean floors and then you have Bob was our saying you know actually that was taken out of context you know people are saying the craft he worked on the sports model was found in an archaeological dig it was actually

“found on the seafloor yeah and I think the office of naval intelligence knows a lot about this whole”

time in fact Jay Stratton where where was the information that was found on the seafloor that's what he says and I think he might have said berry has like we said one of them came from an archaeological dig yes but it wasn't the sport model I think I thought it was oh I don't know if it was this maybe it wasn't one of them it wasn't this one model yeah yeah he said one of them I was told actually came from an archaeological dig and it's really old it might have not been this sport model

but he basically had a weird thing but he said it was a seafloor the labyrinth what I surrounded

us ascribe there's a technology 40 meter long tic-tac shape metallic object that's inside of some sort of an atrium that's underground just a 40 meter long piece of metal that's thousands and thousands of years old like what are you talking about how the fuck do they have 40 meters of metal back then what is that it's so crazy it's 40 meters is nuts it's so no 40 meters is almost a half a football field it's a huge it's fucking massive person metal it's vertical I do not know

okay I don't know but it's it's shaped like you know like a craft the other crazy thing I just was a fucking UFO under Egypt and just got it there and you go get it it'd be so wild well the crazy thing I know you've had you're referring to a lot of Ben van Kirkwicks and he's been on his show

“much he I think went to Dandara and the hieroglyphics there like translate to stargate yes that's crazy”

like what and then I think stargate you know takes place at the pyramid is literally a portal and then if you combine that with the crystal for done stuff or the beyond these stuff where either it's a you know a generator of electricity or there's this other guy amazing guy Jeffrey drum who talks about it as a chemical manufacturing plant you know like something was being done there and maybe it had to do with some transcendent you know and then it obviously you know it's somewhat

maps to a Ryan's belt as well so yeah I don't know maybe and then a Ryan's belt is the pathway that

souls took in ancient times it's I never get tired of the subject it's so fun as long as there's

a new information that comes out they got me hooked forever it's like a stupid soap opera that I'll watch till I die yeah no I feel to say it's it's so like and it's always like the the cast of kid there's so much drama to and disclosure and stuff and it's just I don't know it's that I do hope I do think in our lifetime we're going to make a lot of progress on it this is our rottis is I hope so yeah rottis is description had twelve rufth's court rufth course uh courts

kind of can talk arranged in two rows six facing north and six south all enclosed by one outer

underground rottis say he toured the upper chambers himself but Egyptian custodians refused to show

the lower ones they reportedly held the tombs of the original royal builders and of sacred crocodiles

“what what that's so not but that brings back to my stupid dream I've I was let I think you”

had he emphasizes it's bewildering internal circulation visitors pass from courts to chambers chambers to colonnades and then to further rooms it courts its rufth was stone it walls bore carved figures and each court was ringed by precisely fitted white stone columns and plenty the elder also had an account of this thing or like this was what's I mean also like with ground penetrating radar they know it exists they know it exists there these chambers actually do exist and that's the weird

thing about whatever that metallic object is they they can and they don't know what metal it is

either it's not it doesn't resonate like aluminum or iron they don't know what the fuck it is that's so why they know crop labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids he says I saw this myself I found it greater than words can say that is so wild that is so crazy imagine saying something is greater than

“the pyramids and it's under the ground and you're the preeminent Greek historian like you're”

writing about all the crazy and you're writing about it from a firsthand perspective it's not like he heard a story yeah you're you're seeing it yeah this isn't like home or writing I was watching old older lex freedman podcast in this linguist guy I haven't heard this discussion yet especially with all the times we talked about go back late to have you ever seen this thing what is that um the way he describes it is it's like proving that they had language then

because this is not cunia form and the way he I mean they get it takes 30 minutes probably before they get to this and because he's breaking down what language is and how we got to it and he gives a very crazy explanation of language I had not heard which it's it's like um writing down sound in the same way that like a like a record is recording sound you're writing down sounds and it's like it took a while for everybody to agree upon what all the sounds were so they

are reading the same thing and so Irving Finkel scholar of ancient languages and long-time curator at the British Museum were now in for his expertise in Mesopotamian history and cuniform writing believes this artifact from go backly tippy is evidence of the earliest form of writing dating back to around 11,600 years ago so you're saying like the way that the other stuff is reliefs that this was like a stamped piece of clay that would have been you know some record

of some sort saying something was done and this is like a verification of that and this could have been some guy's last name there's further breakdowns I've seen like maybe this snake is like the S sound and this could be some guy's name who knows what it really could mean but this is going to you know 12,000 years ago and when I thought we were doing this for 3000 or whatever trippy yeah it's very weird it's all very weird they're just a history that we know of with the human race

I mean just when you get to these old structures that we know people made and we come when did they make them and we'll hide like why what what is go backly tippy what the fuck is that yeah like do you think we see a shift in our understanding of humanity and our place and the

“cosmos in our lifetime yeah one funeral at a time hmm yes that's how science progresses”

uh-huh yeah yeah I I think that's pretty accurate I can't keep her at it yeah these old cox suckers they need to get out I mean I just think there's way too many of these people that have a vested interest in protecting an narrative that they've been they've been teaching they've been writing books about they've been they've been saying that they are the experts when you literally can't be there's just not enough data what every period in history like things get wholly overturned

so if you can't point to one thing that's kind of heretical today that you agree with then you're

definitely on the wrong side of history yeah we always say we're at the end of history scientifically

historically and then it it always you know progresses and usually there's a that's when people are most saying we're at the end of history you see a paradigm shift and everything just completely collapses and change this is like the structure of scientific revolution is written by a guy named Thomas Koon who's actually he was friends with John Mac and he encouraged him to you know investigate the alien abduction stuff at Harvard and he was he would say that there's a law of declining marginal

returns in any scientific paradigm where you're just rounding out the the final margins on a theory and you're so sure of it you know like electromagnetism late 19th century and then boom you get

who's to say who are you to say so smuggly that that's not gonna happen now like of course it

will of course it will yeah it's just what always has happened yes and much like the UFO thing

with when it comes to discussions about ancient history and the true history of the human race and what we really don't know the people that are the most smug and are the most sure of themselves

“are most certainly the most wrong yeah it's a hundred percent yeah because I think the whole thing”

is weird the UFO thing is weird and the ancient history thing is weird there's just too many unanswered questions yeah yeah and the the answers that they have are really shitty there's too many really shitty answers this is kind of a weird analogy but in like stock picking which is you know it's easy to get feedback on stock picking like whether you're right or you're wrong confidence can

rise exponentially and accuracy rises very linearly and often plateau and so that's off I think

it's the case in like you know in learning anything where like you get more and more and more confident you're so sure of yourself and but your accuracy is only going like mildly up anytime it goes back to what we're talking about with like remote viewing and staying in flow state yes it's like the you gotta get out of your own way it was everything totally and and and some type you know a great example is Markone who is responsible for inventing the radio by most account him in Tesla right

he tried to send a signal across the Atlantic and he thought that electromagnetic waves curved and so he was like you know I'm gonna send the signal it's gonna work he was entirely wrong about electromagnetic waves curving it just bounced off the ionosphere and then it landed across the Atlantic and the signal was received and so he was right because he was wrong and how many you know a cases are like that where you know degram handcock find the

arc of the covenant no he had it he had it in this general westerly direction of knowing that we have kind of amnesia as a civilization and he found something extremely special you know helped popularize the go-backly tap the narrative and this whole younger dry spirit you know impact theory hypothesis so you have you know same thing with James Bruce with the arc of the covenant you can you can shoot for the stars and land on the moon you know and that's okay but if you're just like

this nitpicker like annoying smug you know academic who's like arguing for the priestly citadel to be upheld like what what is your contribution to humanity right what are you doing yeah

“and there's a lot of those there's so many yeah but I think even some of those people”

and I'm not saying that all of the attributes I just mentioned apply to Neil deGrasse Tyson but that's some of those some of those people are now updating on UFOs and it's wild because like you have a documentary you know the age of disclosure where all these high-ranking intel people are saying UFOs are real repeatedly in front of a chalkboard saying they are real take my word for it

and it's bludgeoning you basically to a point where you're like okay they're probably not like lying

to me you know and so and then you you end up with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like look okay it's just an overwhelming amount of accounts now now I you know I do think there's probably something here and we should look into it and it's like dude you weren't doing science before but it's all it took a documentary that doesn't make any sense no it's criticism yeah he's responding to overwhelming criticism of his intellectual capacity for reason that's right

“yeah because I think like when he was on the podcast with me I got very upset with him when it was like”

why would they be interested in us and I I told him I go that one drives me crazy and I tried to explain why I tried to be casing you kept interjecting and I'm like okay yeah just just stop just stop with that idea that we're not interesting we're territorial apes with nuclear weapons who fucking send face time videos to people on the other side of the planet that's real weird or apes with nicks yeah we're real weird or real weird and if I was something that was an advance

civilization from somewhere else hopefully that a civilization that has gotten past the concept of war and stealing resources and all that and and does have some sort of a a hive mind some sort of ability to communicate telepathically I would be absolutely fascinated by this thing it seems to be in this transitionary sort of an adolescent stage of evolution and development it's like not quite a primal animal anymore but also not evolve past primal animal behavior

100% and all the the Chinese science fiction novel that's rebody problem you might not show yourself overtly in the dark forest teaming with life it's actually dangerous to show yourself so you subtly show up you show up at these you know nodes hinge points of you know

but you would let it sort of seep and you'd condition the population you wouldn't show up all at once

“and we are like objectively being conditioned to accept this if the fucking president is saying”

they live in the ocean and timber shed is saying there's five hotspots in the oceans as well

and then we see it in the New York Times in 2017 well this is how disclosure takes place

100% nice and slow nice and slow to the point where it just becomes accepted totally yeah and it there's no like clear ontological shock moment it's not do do do do the fucking devil's tower UFO lands it's not that no nice and slow it's what's happening now

“it's happening and that's why because there are people that get really frustrated and I understand it”

because there's so much sclerotic bureaucracy on the hill and you know these whistleblowers need way more protections I think we need targeted immunity for certain people who can say a lot more who are good faith actors coming out they're probably a lot of people who aren't really bad

“yet that we don't want immunity for you know but like ultimately you know I have these conversations”

and it's like it's so frustrating it's taking so long but it is moving like if you look at 10 years ago vis-a-vis today 2016 before that 2017 article it's a day it's wild totally different landscape totally different landscape yeah yeah if you talked about it back then you were a buffoon and now you're on the right side of history there you go so you Jell are the premier scientist because you were into all this stuff way back then that guy was into it first

our bell the OG inspiration Jesse you're the fucking man I appreciate you very much it's always

great to talk to you your show's amazing american alchemy it's available on youtube and it's incredible it's the best love you yeah thank you I love you too thank you for being here all right goodbye buddy