#2546 - Michael Button

The child, Rogan, experience.

Train my day, Joe Rogan, podcasts, my night, our day. It's good to see you, brother. What's going on? Good, Man, it's been a wild year for me. I bet it has, man.

Since I was last here, I've seen my YouTube growth and numbers I couldn't have imagined before. I've met so many cool people. I've managed to get to a point where it's now my job to research and investigate ancient history

and the vast mysteries of our past. And yeah, I mean, that's something I was doing for three before. So the fact that I'm now able to do that full-time is just an immense privilege.

And I'm so grateful to everyone that's helped me get there including you. Well, you're putting out fantastic content. Thank you. So, and it's such an interesting subject

and the giant blind spot that the mainstream archaeologists have left has allowed all these people to go through and get a much larger audience, even than them. And it's really important when someone like you does it because you're so thorough and you're so objective

and you're so measured in the way you describe these things and talk about these things. There's no fantastic claims, no hyperbole. It's all very well laid out. And even when you go to extreme possibilities of these things,

it's very measured. So I really appreciate that. Well, thank you. I appreciate you saying that.

And yeah, yeah, I'm always trying to make it as good

as I possibly can. And I try and list to what people say and try and improve. And I don't think I've reached the peak of where I could possibly be, but I'm trying my hardest. But it's not just that.

“I mean, as you say, I think there are so many people out there”

and now that I'm in this position, I've seen it firsthand, there are like millions and millions of people around the world that are deeply fascinated by these questions, by the vast mysteries of our past. So as well, they should be.

And they also know that we're getting a very narrow version of it from mainstream academics. And they're so determined to cling to their timelines and cling to this notion that anything new that's discovered by people outside of their little circle can't be accurate.

And I think that's so silly. - Yeah, I mean, I think someone like me has the kind of advantage of the fact that because I didn't continue my career in academia, or I wasn't in academia, but that was the pathway

that I was on. Because I've gone independent now, I kind of have the freedom. If you like to talk about these ideas in a much more open way than maybe I would have been able to, if I was, well, wouldn't been able to,

if I was still in academia, because I'm not restricted by funding or I'm not restricted by even the pressures of people working in academia, hey, no, I mean, I'll get a lot of hate anyway. But I mean, I think I have that freedom

to almost come up things from a completely open-minded perspective and speak about these ideas without any restrictions.

“And I think that is the advantage that I have”

that academics, perhaps, don't. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm in a great place. - Yeah, so let's get into it. So in the last year, a lot of wild stuff has been discovered, which is really exciting.

- Yeah. - It's so interesting how quick this stuff is moving. - Yeah, it's wild. I mean, there's been, I think, two papers in particular that have come out in the years since I was last here

on the show that I think have huge ramifications for how we view history. So, I mean, I don't know where to start. I mean, I think we should start like this. I think as things currently stand,

there are three huge questions. The archaeology cannot answer. And it's interesting because these three questions we used to think we had an answer to, but in light of new discoveries,

in light of new evidence coming up, we no longer have the answer to these questions. And I think that's fascinating because it's almost like the rug has been pulled out from underneath our understanding of human history.

But on the surface, it's kind of like business as usual.

“Do you know what I mean, this is what are these questions?”

So, I mean, and this is just coming from me, right? It's okay. And the caveat on the whole conversation, I'm not an academic, I'm not a professional archaeologist. I'm just, I mean, I have a degree in ancient history,

but I think my main qualification is that I'm a super nerd for all this stuff, and I spent my whole life researching it. So, that's the caveat on everything. So, don't take what I say as gospel,

and I always encourage people to go and look

at the actual archaeology, go and read the journals, read the papers, and go and investigate what yourself, for yourself, like listen to what I say, but don't take what I say as gospel, 'cause the end of the day, I'm just a YouTuber, you know?

So, that's the caveat I want to put on it. But, from my mind, these are the three questions that I think archaeology can no longer answer, but used to think it had a answer for. So, the first question is, and we spoke about this

a little bit last time, is the fascinating question of why after hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

like us, being on this planet,

“why did it take so long for civilization to emerge?”

And then why, when it did, did it emerge in all these different, unconnected locations, all over the globe, pretty much the exact same time. So, we see civilization flourishing in Mesoamerica, we see civilization flourishing in South America,

in Egypt, in the Anders Valley, in Mesopotamia, in ancient India, in ancient China, all around about the same time, give or take a thousand or so years, but compared to the time span of human beings on this planet, you know, 300,000 years plus for modern humans

and I would argue some of these papers are showing that it could be a lot longer than that. Why after so long did civilization suddenly crop up all over the place and we no longer can answer that question in light of new discoveries.

So that's question one, why does civilization emerge everywhere all at once after so long of not doing so? Question two is, how old is human intelligence? How long have humans been intelligent? How long has a mind-like hours really inhabited this planet?

And I think two papers in particular that have come out in the 12 months since I was here have huge ramifications for that question. And also combine into that is the question of the human species. How intelligent were other human species?

'Cause we used to think that we were the smart ones. I mean, our name, homo sapiens literally translates to wise man, which is an incredibly humble thing for us they have ourselves, but yeah, so that's question two, how old is human intelligence?

And again, I think the answer is,

we don't have the answer anymore. So that's really fascinating. And then question three is,

“when did humans first reach the more isolated landmasses?”

So that's the Americas where we are right now and also Australia, which is perhaps less important, but still interesting. And again, we don't have the answer for that anymore. And I think whatever the answer is to these three questions,

why does civilization appear everywhere all at once, how old is human intelligence? And when did humans first reach the more isolated parts of the world? The answer to those questions wherever it is.

I think it's fundamentally important because whatever the answer is is the reason we're all here, right?

Is the reason we all live in this civilization?

Is the reason we all enjoy the fruits of everything that we exist in today? And yet, we don't know the answer anymore, but as I said on the surface, everyone's kind of carrying on like its businesses usual,

but we no longer know the answer to the most fundamental questions of how we got here. So yeah. So for question number one, why did all of these civilizations emerge roughly the same time?

What do you think? Do you think that this is incorrect in that these civilizations probably existed far earlier than that, but there's no evidence of them because of time and just erosion and natural catastrophes

and fill in the blank, all the factors. And or we have not discovered some of these yet, like some of the weirdness of the Amazon, as they find what appear to be the grids of ancient cities that are hidden in the jungle

that they're discovering with lidar and these other technologies that were unavailable until fairly recently. So we know that not only was the Amazon filled with people, but it was filled with millions of people. And that's crazy.

That is a crazy shift in the way we used to look at the Amazon just a few decades ago. And we don't know who these people were. We don't know, like if you go really far back like the Olmex is just a word, we gave them that word.

We don't know what the fuck they were doing. We have no idea what they looked like. We know some of the heads look roughly either pollination or perhaps even African. It's very strange, very strange.

Big giant heads that are left behind. And that's like the cornerstone of what we understand about the civilization. OK. What?

How long, 6,000 years we think? Who knows? It's just a rough guess. Like there's really nothing to go on. Do you think that this is just like as far back

as we can find stuff? Or do you think, well, what do you think? Well, I think-- This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website,

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Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code, Rogan, to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. When, in terms of the civilization question,

I think it's just--

“I think it's an old idea that we kind of drew this line.”

And the line is the invention of writing. Right. There's around 3,000, 4,000 BC. Was the invention of writing? Or supposedly was the invention of writing.

And that, in the 20th century, was kind of given as the mark of civilization. We were finding all these civilizations in the 20th century, like ancient Sumer. And so that was kind of given us the start of civilization.

But I think, in terms of more recent stuff-- so 3,000 BC back to like 12,000 BC.

I think the answer is that clearly civilization is older.

I mean, considering we see things like touch parallel to Beckley-Tapay, 12,000 years ago, I think that is a civilization. I think over time that will come to be accepted as a civilization.

“And I think whatever you want to define civilization”

is, I think we can now clearly say that it did exist 12,000 years ago, rather than 6,000 years ago. So that's a kind of doubling of the timeline. In terms of going back much further than that, I think then you get into purely hypothetical scenarios

like is it possible? And that's when I think things like the history of human intelligence start to come into play because it was incredibly recently that we thought humans were only got intelligent. And we thought humans were young, like only 100,000 years old.

Only a few decades ago, and now we know we're much older than that. And so this is what I mean about everything kind of being back on the table again, because we now have an incredibly increased time span of human intelligence that I would argue and I'll come to this later

stretches over a million years.

And yet the old idea, which is still sort of in place,

“but I think is breaking, I think most archaeologists would accept”

that is breaking, but the old idea was that humans only became intelligent around 50,000 years ago. And so because that idea kind of was in hold, it almost made sense, right? So humans only existed from 100,000 years ago, then got smart 50,000

years ago. Then the climate got good around 14,000 years ago. We see the agricultural revolution and the emergence of the first civilizations. Like it was very neat, you know what I mean?

But now in light of new evidence and in light of new discoveries, suddenly everything's back on the table. Suddenly the whole time span of prehistory, or not the whole of prehistory, but I would argue and I'll get onto why I think this later, I would argue that the time span of human

intelligence has increased by 20 times from 50,000 to over a million years and I'll explain why in a minute. But I think that puts everything back on the table. I think the possibilities of prehistory are so vast now, because of our understanding has shifted so dramatically in the last few

decades and I don't think anyone's really talking about it. And that's kind of why I do what I do because I really want to bang this drum if you like the everything's back on the table, as I say. And so yeah, I kind of got a bit sidetracked there for the original question. Well, that's a no, it's a great start.

Jesse Michaels was here yesterday and he had a really fascinating theory. I don't know if it's his theory or is it someone else's theory that the Ergot theory, his theory was that he believes that agriculture and that as they started agriculture wasn't just significant in that you could like

stay in one place and you would have food and you always had a reliable diet,

you didn't have to worry about starving to death and then you because you had that sort of relaxation that came with that, you could start inventing things and building things and civilization what it advanced. He thinks it's also because Ergot grows on these different weeds and barley and grains and that these people, whether knowingly or unknowingly, were probably ingesting this psychedelic substance,

which is akin to LSD and that this was a key part of what Brian Mura Rescue talked about in the Illucinian Mysteries in his great book The Immortality Key and that this was probably what led to a lot of invention, a lot of innovation, a lot of alternative thought, a lot of creativity and a lot of like you know whatever the wild advancements of the time were. Did you see that they just not proved it but they just they just did a study on the

Illucinian Mysteries where they kind of showed that they were doing they did have a got because when Brian wrote that book they hadn't proved that but something just came out there. Did you see the it was a Puma-Bone pipe that they found that tested positive for DMT where in LSD? I do not know. I think it was I don't it might have been in the American. No, where was I? Peru. Yes. Yes. How old is that, Jamie? See if you can put that in a

perplexity if it knows what this is all about because it's a fascinating subject because not only does

they knew how to make DMT. Like okay what? Because that's a complicated process when you have to

“separate the molecule from whatever plant it's in and then you have to figure out that you need”

to free base it or smoke it like hot what? This is actually a northwestern Argentina. Uh-huh. And so it's the landies but um the Inca Quava, a high altitude cave site in Jujoy, northwestern Argentina. The tubular smoking pipes are made from the long bones of a Puma. They were found alongside uh and a Dan and Thura and a Dan and Thura and a Dan and Thura and uh Dan and Thura seeds, including the plant commonly associated with uh Vil. Vilka, Sebel, snuff traditions,

residue testing detected triptamine alkaloids in the pipes. So they were figuring out how to take these seeds and smoke them. Um the materials been dated to roughly 2,130 BCE over 4,000 years ago that makes the fun amongst the oldest direct archaeological evidence for intentional use of psychoactive and a Dan Thura and a Dan and Thura and a Dan sorry scientists in the southern anddees. That's fucking crazy. The careful answer is DMT was detected in pipe residues but uh Anna Dan Thura

Colubrina is not simply a DMT plant. It's psychoactive chemistry can include uh bufatin bufatin and DMT and 5MEO DMT in varying quantities depending on plant material and preparation. The archaeological interpretation is that the pipes were used in a ritual context involving um one more time and uh Dan and Thura rather than proof that people were using modern purified DMT either way. They're smoking whatever the fuck that stuff is. They're getting DMT from it. So they had figured

out somehow another that ingesting it through smoke. Now one of the reasons why this is particularly significant is there's scholars out of um I think it's the University of Jerusalem that uh

“believe that the burning bush that Moses encountered some kind of psychedelic. That's what”

what that's exactly what they think. They think the translation was it was they believe it was possibly the Kasia tree which is apparently rich in DMT so that Moses has Moses trips ball and gets some really good solid rules to live by and comes back with them and said hey this is what God said. Yeah I mean I think there's it's clearly the case the ancient cultures not just in South America but across the world were using psychedelic substances and

yeah that's interesting I mean the theory of whether that caused agricultural whether that led to civilization or anything like that I mean I don't know but it's certainly interesting that human being seems to have been experimenting with psychoactive substances for a long, long, long, long, long, long time and yeah that's fascinating. Yeah and much like uh in our culture today and you know especially what happened in 1970 where all that stuff was demonized and put on

schedule one back then during the Illysinian mysteries the reason why those mysteries stopped is because the powers that be were like hey these guys are a fucking problem these trippy dudes they're weird ideas who invented democracy they're going to fuck this whole thing up we're not going to be able to run it and tell everybody what to do and force them into going to war.

Yeah I know yeah as the powers the be always want to restrict any kind of like thought that's

outside of the well they want people to think they don't want people to think as freely as as they can and anything that limits their control you know because culturally everybody wants control and there's always new groups that say you don't know what the fuck you're doing let me take the realm and that's always been the case um which is probably good for people you know it probably is what leads to I mean not the more part of it but probably these new ideas

is what leads to an advancement of civilization rather than stagnation that we find in some places in the world where they haven't had a chance to do that yeah you know like my friends have been to Afghanistan they had to serve over there essentially saying that like this they're living like

“people lived thousands of years ago there's warlords and they they control regions and that's how”

they've always done it and they they live this weird nomadic lifestyle in the mountains and it's not

much different than the way it was thousands and thousands of years ago very climb like uh yeah and

there's no motivation for them to change and evolve and grow and I think there's no innovation right now it's nothing's happening also they're stuck in the mountains it's like you're just trying to live yeah but you know when you we think of these places these very fertile places on earth where like particularly turkey turkeys fascinating you know and um many people are now speculating that that if there is a singular place that but that might have been one of the birthplaces of

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“for a united states audience yeah i mean i think it undoubtedly is i think touch the pellet”

which is in modern day turkey is the earliest evidence in my view of something akin to civilization and now archaeologists will say it's not civilization because it doesn't quite tick off every purchase part of the checklist but i think that's not neither here nor there i think it's clearly a very sophisticated culture i mean you have like 14 sites then and i'll clearly shown to be into link shared symbolism shared religious tradition same architectural styles very impressive

architecture clearly organized labour stratified society because how do you achieve that without someone at the top and someone below and these are all things that we used to think we're civilization right and yet people are happy with us calling touch the pellet civilization but i think it will get there but don't you think that's just because of them trying to protect their timeline that they've been teaching yeah and i think it will change

“i think it will change i don't think there's any other explanation of that i mean it fits”

as you said all the criteria for a civilization that we used to apply and the fact that they were moving the goalposts just because they didn't know it existed and they're finding

residential buildings that go back to tap a now and that was always one that used to say

people didn't live there they must have migrated there but now they're finding that people did live there like i guess permanently or at least semi permanently you look yeah there's all the sites and quite a vast area all connected and so the only ones they haven't got now is is writing and there's an interesting discovery regarding writing it go back to tap it and agriculture yeah we talked about that yesterday i think think with that yes yeah really interesting

so are those with where you see those pillars or those sites where you have like the those concentric circles i assume so those are the famous ones anyway carda hontapi go back to tap a safe it tap a those are the biggest ones and only 5% of go backly tap it currently has even been excavated right which is pretty crazy when you think like what okay how many of them are also still underground like how many do we know only exist because of ground penetrating radar

and all the other techniques yeah i mean it's wild like go back to tap a if all of it was excavated is something like 50 times larger than stone hinge and stone hinge is obviously an incredibly famous site and yet it's so much bigger and like to be clear it is standard arca um archaeological practice to not excavate too much of a site but what are we looking at here that's go back to

“detail and what are we looking out in terms of these these grids i think maybe that's the kind of”

archaeological but i think i'm not 100% sure it seems like it right because it seems like the grids go on top of these circles which doesn't make any sense so obviously they have to go very slowly the the risk of destroying some incredible find some beautiful ancient thing because you using tractors or something like this is valid it is valid but i would argue and i've said this before it is the go back to tap a as a site that has such important ramifications for our

understanding of civilization and the origins of civilization that it should receive special

treatment right because it is the old site that looks like civilization so i always think that maybe we

should not obviously you want to be careful when you go in and you want to follow correct archaeological procedure but at the same time what if a relic like a equivalent to the risotto stone the

Egypt to our understanding what if some kind of equivalent artifact is hiding in the un-exquavated 95% of go back to tap it that could be waiting for that for us to find and talk about this board before yeah i don't remember ever seeing it but it's not new but it was also found

“like a backlight type it was painted oh i think like some of the mouth is painted red it's crazy look”

and it's life side i'm pretty close to life size the whole thing is really fascinating because it's also i think it's the first evidence of 3d carving in stone too yeah it's just really i think yeah also what we're saying about that is in like these boars and snakes and all these

different animals that are on these incredible pillars they're not carved into it those the

stone is carved around it which is advanced that's you know it it takes a sophisticated use of tools and to understand you how to work stone to be able to do something like that and crucially specialization right that someone's job then or out there gathering food that that's their job that's their right how they spend their time and it's also hey how to move those yeah what those does are huge what the biggest ones are like how many well i think most of them are like 10

tons but they found i think they found one that hadn't been moved by the quarry that was something like 50 tons and obviously they would have assumed that they would have had a method to move that was they wouldn't have carved out yeah 50 tons is high and uh stubby little peckers clutching their peckers yeah okay whatever you're into bro must have been a weird world back then and then the real question is is this the oldest civilization or is this the oldest reboot

of civilization that was destroyed by the great flood and by the younger drives impact and whatever the fuck could it could have happened to whatever civilization previously existed that's

“what things get real swirly yeah well exactly because if if that is a civilization which I think”

it's becoming clear that it is that it doesn't really matter how you define civilization it's clearly incredibly sophisticated like it's a very sophisticated that word is probably exactly just like who cares it's clearly very sophisticated it's like when Fauci was talking about gain of function like a fucker yeah you know what we're talking about exactly exactly yeah but yeah that means the you know the timeline of civilization whatever you want to call it has doubled from 6,000

years to 12,000 years so then the question becomes how far much further back does it go because clearly touch the pello good backly tap a not the first thing these people built they didn't they weren't starting from scratch they weren't just hunt together as the thought that's try something new and build this like it's clearly a long procedure up to that point so how far back does that go does and for people that don't know we should probably explain that one of the

reasons why they're able to accurately carbon test go backly tapping is because and this is work it's really weird the dirt is uniform in that it was intentionally covered so these sites weren't covered you know just over time like maybe this sphinx wasn't Egypt they were covered intentionally and they were covered 11,600-ish years ago so how old were they before they were covered yeah of course I mean that's the only the the earliest date we have but that doesn't mean it's the date that they were

“construction why were they covered yeah I mean there is debate over that but that's what Klaus Schmidt thought”

the what is the debate well some people say it wasn't intentionally covered and it was just kind of like a landslide like a crazy landslide that'll happen at once because it's really hard to prove

what an amazing landslide that covers everything yeah I mean I don't know I would still lean towards

the original interpretation from the original archaeologist Klaus Schmidt but obviously why did he think that covered it I don't know I think conquering civilization were like fuck these people and they're beautiful pillars no I think he thought the people that built it covered it or I guess he can't you can't tell can you and that's the thing with so much of this stuff is that no one knows and especially the further back you get in time anyone that talks with any confidence around

the past and this is one of my main bug bears with archaeology like I love archaeology and I have the huge respect for the archaeologists and I think they do amazing work but one of my main bug bears is the confidence in which people talk about the past and rolling out other possibilities because at the end of the day none of us know what happened in the deep deep past especially when you start getting back to these crazy timescales it's all speculation and it doesn't matter

if you're a youtuber like me or a professor we're all just speculating based on the very limited

evidence that we have and so I don't like it when people say definitive things I always try and say

maybe this is the case or maybe that's the case we don't know and I think everyone should approach history with that mindset and that's kind of if I can get any message across to people it's that that's the message like we don't know and here's a possibility and here's a possibility and here's the evidence that we think is true but you know it's really hot to tell but it's also

expanded the timeline archaeology should probably tag along well yeah that's what I mean

“about the fact that the Bronx kind of been pulled out from underneath us yeah what on purpose means”

here there's good reason to think humans intentionally deposit at least some of the fill ex enclosure d alone contain roughly 500 cubic meters of rubble and cultural debris and particular items including broken anthropomorphic sculpture heads appear to have been deliberately placed near pillars during refilling but archaeologists do not have definitive evidence for the often repeated popular claim that it's builders intentionally buried the entire site

at once to hide it preserve it or mark a single ritual closure the mound is man-made in the sense that it consists of accumulated archaeological deposits but its formation involved both human actions and natural sediment movement ending around 8,000 BCE yo that's a long fucking time ago I don't think people even really could wrap their head around how long we're talking you know especially that's the other thing about one of the things that I loved

about your your whole video series was the one where you were talking about what would be left if there was a human civilization 100,000 or more years ago and that's not unreasonable if this biology assessment is correct is that there have been humans far longer than we used to

“think so that's the case because if we used to think it was 50,000 years I think when I was in high”

school they were talking they were saying the homosepians were like 50,000 years old over maybe 100 right and now the conventional estimate is like what three so the oldest fossils we have of anatomically modern humans are 315 to 360,000 years old I mean that's it's the same fossil set from Jebelleru de Morocco but this obviously is really hard to date accurately but it's between 335,000 and then I think it's really important to note that the fossil record is incredibly incomplete because most people

don't leave a fossil it's so hard to like it's so unlikely that you'd fossilize it's something

like one in a million so it's such a crazy metric to like try to figure out what the past is

from these tiny scraps it's like trying to read a book by a single shard of a piece of paper with a half a sentence in it and you're like we think this book is about like fuck it's not much evidence that's the problem but the evidence that they do find is pushing the timeline way back way back and that alone you would think archaeology would go well hey guys in light of this new evidence maybe we should consider the possibility of the civilizations quite a bit older than we think

they are the same exact animal what would take them 300,000 years to develop complex civilization and agriculture and all these different things like why would it take so long and is it possible

that given the I mean the incredible possibilities when it terms of like what kind of

natural disasters took place just asteroid impacts that we know we find them all over the earth all over the earth and some of them are 20,000 years old 50,000 years old we find them everywhere like what kind of an impact would that have had what would be left of those civilizations and all those questions again guys like you are or the ones proposing them and putting them out there and it's a really good question especially in light of you know what we understand about humans

biologically like wouldn't doesn't it make sense that these people these just as like anatomically completely like us like why would it take them hundreds of thousands of years to figure out a roof yeah exactly but I think it's it's some I think we have clear evidence now that what we call modern intelligence behaviour or modernity goes back so so so much further than we think like I would argue back over a million years in light of a couple of papers that have come out in the last 12

months one of these papers so I mean there's been two really significant papers I think since we last spoke um one of them I think has really big ramifications for human intelligence and that's a paper that came out regarding that island of Sulawesi which is in Indonesia and this is in

relation to human seafaring so seafaring was always thought to be an exclusively sapiens straight

“exclusively modern human straight because it's a really hard thing to do right you need to be”

quite clever to build a boat to build something that's sophisticated enough to be seeworthy to get

until very recently but a paper came out in August last you actually sent it to me you don't think you sent me a post that was about stone tools that was found and I was interested in a clicked on the paper and then I was like oh wow look where these stone tools were found and it was really really interesting because they were found on Sulawesi and Sulawesi is an island that crucially sits east of something called the Wallace line which is a biographic boundary which means that it has

been an island and separated from the mainland for tens of millions of years and separated by deep ocean channels that are between depending on the fluctuating sea levels at the time between

50 and 100 kilometers across so it's always been an island and yet in August 2025 archaeologists

at a site called calio found stone tools on Sulawesi and that means that some type of human probably not sapiens but I guess you never know some type of human managed to cross that ocean boundary and reach Sulawesi and that's fascinating but it's worth saying that it's not the only piece of evidence in the region there's also a decade or so ago we found stone tools on Flores which is just below Sulawesi it's another island and crucially again east of the Wallace line so

“again you have to cross an ocean boundary to get to Flores and they found stone tools there that are”

1.02 million years old and I didn't even say the Sulawesi tools are 1.04 to 1.4 million years ago to years old so over a million years ago some type of human was crossing ocean boundaries to get to these islands and there's also Luzon which is just above Sulawesi same region

and they found stone tools there which are 700,000 years old now the theory always was that this

was an accident when we just had Flores the the theory was that it was accidental drift so and a couple of humans were swept out to see and somehow survived the stormy ocean and the tropical sun cling to some driftwood and made it to Flores and somehow survived and colonized the island but now that we've got Flores Luzon and Sulawesi three islands all in the same region all separated by this ocean boundary I think it's starting to point less towards accident and more towards

behavior right more towards a deliberate sea crossing because to colonize I was doing some research because of these discoveries and there's actually been a few papers from NASA on how many humans

“you need to colonize an isolated landmass because NASA were doing it for like if you're going”

to Mars or something and you need a certain amount of humans of breeding age to not have like genetic problems in the population to so you need a a certain amount of humans of a breeding age to to ensure viability right because otherwise you're going to imbreed and you're all going to die out because of genetic issues and they said it was something like you need 160 people at least and that is with strict breeding controls and genetic testing we can probably assume they weren't

doing genetic testing on themselves and so then the numbers somewhere near 500 so what are the chances that 500 individuals were all swept out to see at the same time all survived the crossing and all landed on the island and colonized it that's a huge amount of humans for an accident general I mean and then three times in three separate islands all in the same region at what point does accident start looking like behavior general I mean because that is how what are the chances

of 500 individuals all being swept out to see all survive in all reaching these islands and all

“colonizing in three separate occasions all around about a million years ago I think it's not”

a high chance is it and I think if we apply Occam's razor to it which is you know the simplest explanation wins I think the simplest explanation is that these humans were intelligent enough to build boats right and that's I mean and that is a controversial opinion that's not accepted it's accepted that the humans reach these islands that that's not controversial humans were on these islands a million years ago it's just not accepted that it was intentional yeah it's not

accepted that they built well that seems silly but I think it's it's it doesn't make me sense it's it's not a 500 of them make it over by floating and surviving yeah what exactly at the same time exactly and this is what I mean about taking data points from different kind of science so yeah because I'm looking into what NASA is saying about humans colonizing somewhere and I'm saying well look 500 people or more than 500 people of breeding age as well not just people all reaching

an island on three separate occasions all in the same region are we sure this wasn't deliberate

so I think that has huge ramifications for human intelligence because that was always thought to be

exclusively sapiens thing building a boat because that's really hard to build a boat you have to have planning you have to have foresight you have to be good enough at carpentry to construct

the imagination as well to dream about what's on the other side of the horizon and the bravery

and the incredible reckless courage to go for it and to go out there across the horizon and reach

an island and possibly navigate through the stars like they knew how to do that maybe maybe they're because obviously why would you set out you know right and how would you repeat it exactly yeah how are you do you remember which way you went that were you like how are you some fucking do the giant brow ridge yeah furry face is telling you I remember going this way like are you fucking sure how are you didn't I use in the stars like what are you doing and but humans

“why do you have to have complex language by them they won't they won't men and be capable of this”

that's what we're seeing these organizations there has to be some sort of organization if you're getting a group of people to agree to get the boat if they can't communicate with each other that seems ridiculous it seems even more ridiculous because let's say at the the minimum of 50 kilometers how long does it take you to row 50 kilometers seems like it would be days you'll be tough wouldn't it I know an ocean as well like a yeah right if you even survive how long is it going

to take before you get across I mean maybe they figured out when the stormy season was and they time it for when it's not so stormy but I mean now how are they doing that do they have a calendar

a million years ago but whatever they were doing if it was deliberate which I think the evidence

points towards it's a clear sign of what we call modern intelligence and an organization

“and most likely communication which we always used to think only emerge 50 thousand years ago”

that's crazy and so now if it's over a million years old you know that's like it that is a 20 times and it could be 1.4 the sort of way C2 was a data to 1.04 to 1.4 so that's I don't know what's that like 25 times I wouldn't even think that's so funny the the point four that's a lot it's huge it's absolutely huge yeah and this is what you were saying about like people can't get their heads around the sheer enormity of these timescales that we're talking about like

it's so long yeah it's so long well another weird one that that's come up fairly recently that I know you've talked about is the copper mining in North America yeah that one blew me away just the volume of copper that was removed yeah they had a whole copper industry in North America 9000 years ago which is just listen to that again say that one more time a whole copper industry in North America 9000 years ago and that's the same as the earliest day anywhere else

in the world and the volume this is where this was going to freak people out tell them how much copper was removed I don't know if the top of my head but it's a lot and to be fair there's lots of natural copper I think is in the kind of northern parts of the United States as it is now and I don't know how much they removed off the top of my head but it is a lot of copper and

“like a commercial copper mine volume yeah that's what I said industry like it's big it's it's”

so crazy and I don't understand how they determine the amount of copper that was removed but if that is correct that seems to indicate that there was some sort of sophisticated metallurgy going on in North America 9000 years ago yeah which is as early as anywhere else in the world and that completely flies in the face of what we used to think about people in North America and it's interesting because what the evidence appears to show is that they did this for a few

thousand years but then they dropped it and they stopped doing it and I don't know what that's the jest but even it suggests something happened to them or they decided they didn't want to

do anymore but either way it kind of goes against this idea that we've always kind of assumed

that technology is like an escalator right we always assume that technology isn't that's yeah echo here and point five billion pounds of copper what so wrap your head around this folks archaeology and date mining and copper tool use but it's generally cannot calculate annual or century specific production nine thousand five hundred years ago one older broad estimate puts a total archaic period extraction in the Lake Superior region at up to about 1.5 billion pounds of copper

roughly six hundred and eighty thousand metric tons but that covers many millennia not the century nine thousand five hundred years ago so that means that they were doing it for thousands of years but they're saying it covers many millennia yeah they were doing it for yeah as it says the peak between seven thousand and five thousand years ago that's crazy that's crazy so at least nine thousand five hundred years ago they started doing this somewhere around there and they did

for thousands of years they removed copper for thousands of years it was just sitting on the top they called it float copper I think mm like that like float it's probably how they first started

precious metals just they exist in weird deposits it's like erratic it's all over the place like

come find me yeah and these people use this stuff for weapons they use this stuff for jewelry they used it for all kinds of things aeropoints I'm sure they're probably used it for all sorts of things they had to use it for weapons right yeah I think they found like spare points and stuff yeah let me make sense but then they dropped it and then they just they stopped doing it and we don't know why they did that but as I was saying wow look kind of there's the copper head

arrow it goes against this idea that we have this the technology is like an escalator and you just take one level of technology and you keep going up it shows that people can invent something or discover something and then stop doing it and forget about it and that I think that has implications for how we look at prehistory as a whole because it suggests that people you know rather than just going straight line this linear path upwards we can go up and down and forget things and we discover

“things and right and that's what the this is the alternative theory is that we're we're a reinvention”

of civilization currently and that we're the most advanced reinvention that we're aware of but it doesn't mean that there hasn't been some sort of a civilization before us that perhaps reached heights where we are or greater in a completely different direction and I think when you look at some of the stone structures that exist those are the best evidence because they're so perplexing the the stones in Lebanon what have they got the trillethon stones? It's a ballback yeah

yeah those are crazy like what happened there how what did you get them up this weird because big as they they're a trippy it's the Romans right but there's no Roman records of them doing that and it's and that's not particularly weird in itself until you realise that it's a bigger engineering project than anything the Romans did anywhere I mean

the Coliseum is obviously an incredible thing but the blocks aren't as big as these blocks

at ballback and yeah they don't mention it anywhere and you'd think that you know a civilization that documented as much the Romans would at least mention their biggest engineering project somewhere you know and I mean that doesn't mean it wasn't the Romans but it's just a weird thing like it's very weird it's very weird and it's also weird that like many places the structures that are on top of it are not as sophisticated but not as difficult to do that's that's how it is

over and over and over again that sucks they warm on that's a lot of these places you see the base the oldest stuff it seems like they find stuff and they build on top of stuff that was already there and then you're dealing with thousands and thousands of years of civilization where people don't even remember who build it you know the like the gods the gods put these rocks here it happens all over the world yeah people build on old sites because often the sites

so the best site in the region because that's why someone's built their originally so right makes sense to reuse them but that doesn't mean that the latest civilization that used it

was the first I mean it could be but it also doesn't mean that they are definitively but

“often that's how we take it and yeah that's not necessarily the best way of looking at them”

I think I think we sort of earlier is really important that we can't possibly know and to make these definitive statements about things where you just don't have enough evidence you don't have enough facts you can't really say definitively we know and that drives experts crazy because they don't like to do that they don't like to let that go especially humans especially men they love you know the ego that comes with being the one who has the information the

expert opinion that appeal to authority that I'm the one who can tell you oh this is nonsense these Michael buttons on you to what they're bullshit they're archeological bullshit they love doing that but no one's listening to them that's what's cute yeah and yeah I mean I'm grateful that a lot of people listen to me yeah well like I said you're really good at it and it is undeniably just based on what we said so far this is undeniably strange it's undeniably weird

“and it's undeniably at least to me and you interesting you know and that's uh that's why the”

subject one you know hopefully it will continue the pathway that it's on because there's so many people like you now that are looking at this stuff and they're very credible people who are very objective the the Ben Van Kirkwicks of the world and Jimmy Corsetti's all these people that are looking at stuff and go hey there's a lot going on here people there's a lot yeah I think it's interesting that it's like the more we uncover the more we discover the more

new evidence that comes out I think what we're starting to realise is that the limits on our own knowledge are vastly bigger than we ever used to think like we used to think we kind of had it figured out and this is what I'm talking about with those three questions I mentioned at the start like we used to think we had the answer to these big questions but with each new discovery we're

kind of applies I think the first is physics and obviously I'm not smart enough or clever enough

to talk about physics in any meaningful capacity but I think it's fair to say that the more we learn about the nature of reality and the universe the more we realise just how big it is and how crazy it is and how little we understand about our place in it and but I think the other subject is history I think the more we learn about history the more we realise how huge the amount of time humans have been on this planet is how long a mind like ours has been on this planet how long

humans that are very similar to us have been on this planet is and I think it's a vital thing because it's physics is kind of the question of where are we but history is kind of the question of who are

we and where do we come from and that's why I'm so interested in it because it's a fundamental

“question to civilization and so who we are and I think it's really important and so that's why”

I talk about this stuff yeah and also it's cool it's very cool it's so fascinating but I love it and I know you love it too and it's great well it's it's it's so weird you know it's so it's so weird to think like what was it like thousands and thousands of years ago what what did they know where did they learn it and was are these stories these flood myths that exist in all these ancient cultures is this an echo of historical record of people trying to keep track of this event that

took place that crushed us and brought us down to you know a few thousand people all over the world and we had to rebuild and that's it's also when you go back thousands of years in the conventional timeline people were so barbaric they were so horrible just a few thousand years ago if they were capable 5,000 years ago of building ancient Egypt probably earlier than that but if why were they

“so brutal 2,000 years ago because I think those are the people that survived I think the people”

that survive were probably fucking terrible you know if they had to be you know if there's only like we know that like the Toba volcano which was like um is that Indonesia uh 70,000 years ago got us down to what just a few thousand people globally yeah yeah imagine that life imagine what you had to do to stay alive imagine even the thought of raising children in a world where there's only 7,000 people left and limited amounts of food and you know most of

the population of earth is dead what yeah it's like this is crazy we've been through some crazy things as a species yeah you did it didn't you do a video of um there there's some evidence that at some point in history most people were killed often war yes that there's really it's what you were just saying about so just after the agricultural revolution the theory is that because humans then had like property and were kind of defending things that people got a lot more violent

and there's a lot of evidence that are around 6,000 years ago basically all the men died there's

like evidence that 95% of male bloodlines were removed and we can see this from though the white chromosome in genetics and there's like a massive drop-off of the diversity the genetic diversity in male bloodlines and something like 95% went and no one quite knows why this is but we see lots of mass graves around this time and violent graves and like all these people were killing each other and it might not have been that but it's weird that it only affected men because if it

was a natural disaster it wouldn't be specific so either gender but it's only men so some people think it's like big male violence and but no one really knows but it's really interesting well doesn't it make sense though I mean think if you go from hunter and gathering where you're constantly moving nomadic tribes people bunch people stick together you're intense or whatever and then all the sudden you're stationary and you've developed agriculture and you stay put and then there's

hunter gatherer tribes is still exists because guess what they still exist today so it's not like it was a uniform discovery of agriculture everybody adopted it and there was no more hunter gatherer tribes and there's no more tribes of wandering marauders so there's still these tribes of wandering

“marauders and so now you have to defend this spot because you're stuck there because your your”

dumbass bill of house or like the mongles used to make fun of people that lived in houses they you know they they thought there were fools and they they lived in felt tense period that's how you're supposed to live keep moving and this idea staying put like we're these idiots like we're just going to go sack their city like they really had no respect for people that were so stupid that they they stuck themselves behind walls like you assholes can't even run away we're going to launch

lit human beings on fire with catapults onto your hatched roofs and set everything ablaze you know

yeah mongles figured out a lot of cute stuff but you know it makes sense that that's when war

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they even offer a 60 day money-back guarantee so go ahead and take your shot yeah once we sat down and once we owned you stay put yeah you're becoming a target exactly and you have something to defend with this be at livestock or crops or houses as you say and and so you have this quite a lot of evidence that violence did increase massively as we entered the kind of agricultural age that we're still in it's that is interesting it's very interesting and it also is logical it's

a logical progression of how people would behave given the fact that now all of the sudden they have resources that they've accumulated they have a very specific location they have to defend that location that's when people figure out walls and that's a bigger you know whatever the the weird thing is the the great wall of china like the arrow turrets are facing a wrong way

“yeah yeah a lot of it a lot of the great wall the arrows are facing an inward”

it's trying to keep people in rather than out or try to keep people from china escaping going to wherever whatever's on the other side it might have been some sections of it

weren't constructed by the people that we think were constructed it you've never seen that

not obviously very weird like people pondered like why did the arrow because there's these slots where they can be protected but shoot arrows through but they're facing towards china yeah they're not like china defending the wall against the hunts it's weird that's strange see if you can find someone I'm lucky enough it's not a really great answer in this it's so part of it is and part of it isn't mostly the great wall's defensive features face

north outward towards the step the usual direction of major raise innovation but many surviving sections have arrow slits and parapets facing both north and south including seemingly inward towards china why face inward defense after a breach for attackers cross the wall or capture the tower so they prepared to be invaded hmm chinese garrisons needed to shoot and counter attack from the south side as well control of movement both ways the wall

was a network of forts gates signals rose not just to one side of barrier also regulated border crossings trade and movement it is crazy that they invented a wall that you could see from space I know it's wild it's one of the biggest engineering projects ever like how long is out is it like 1000 miles or something crazy I have no idea but it's big how long is the great wall of china take yes i say 1000 miles it's probably more easily i have a chinese so big in itself

and the fact that it's the whole like yeah what do you think jaymy do you guess 6000 wow Jesus jaymy huh you would be really good on the prices right oh my god 21000 kilometers holy shit oh my god oh my god 13171 miles

mother fucker that's crazy have you ever been though no i've been that it's crazy it's amazing

it's so beautiful the whole region around them you know this is really long but the famous continuous looking Ming era wall that most visitors picture is much shorter still 8000 850 kilometers when an associated structures and natural barriers are included unesco describes the overall great wall complex as more than 20000 kilometers long so at the very least the part that you visit the Ming era wall 8000 8150 kilometers which is fucking wild that is so much

fifth to third centuries BCE through major work in the Ming dynasty which ended in 1644

“have you ever seen some of the stuff that kasi copper smith has talked about in regards”

to ancient technology evidence from china not specifically how stuff but there's a lots of weight lots of weight things in ancient china yeah weird stuff like jade artifacts that seem to be machined that don't make any sense that it looks super old and that seemed to be artifacts that were passed down from generation to generation and the you know thousands of years ago the civilization that was in possession of them their current ability to make artifacts was like

much cruder so it seems like this is older stuff that they had somehow another acquired and they lost the knowledge of wafer thin jade highly polished seemed to be machined like weird weird stuff I haven't seen that specifically but yeah that's interesting I don't know about that yeah it's it seems like a like a really clear pattern that exists everywhere that there was

“something like the these ancient vases that they find in Egypt they find these in these old sites”

and that these things that were carved out of dyrite which is insanely hard stone and carved to you know within less than a human hair of variance not only that if it was on a lathe how do you account for the fact that it has these handles on the side how fucked did they do this and this was all stuff that was like really really old by the time these people had it and that these people their current state of pottery and sculpture and it's a much cruder than this stuff so it seems

like these are really really old things that are artifacts of a time where things were more sophisticated so it's more evidence of this up and down nature yeah I mean it's logical right that people learn things discover things excel at them and then later people forget them is of course especially when you take any consideration natural disasters natural disasters wars things long those lines you know like Baghdad before the the Mongols got there was like the center of science in the

world yeah yeah they are obviously they were incredible science and then it's just the natural

cyclical civilizations and we see that throughout recorded history so why would it not be the case for human beings in the much much much much much much larger period of time which is prehistory but it's not just thing is it's not just like natural disasters and things and obviously that plays a part but it's also just the sheer nature of preservation right such a long amount of time that we've been around human beings on this planet it's just it's just almost impossible for

things to survive when we talk about these hundred thousand years two hundred thousand years yeah it's so hard for things to survive that long right any objects any things that would be left over like you know I'm sure you've seen those AI depictions of what New York City would look like in just a thousand years it's like nothing everything's crumbling gone I spent no buildings no glass everything gets absorbed in the earth you get a jungle where Manhattan is maybe you would stumble upon a

piece of metal one day yeah but even then like I mean I've done quite a lot research on material degradation and almost all our modern materials are the stone gone in a few millennia and I'm a few millennia's a long time but not compared to these time scales that we're talking about no if these time scales are accurate in terms of the human brain in terms of the ability to logically like view the world invent things creativity if they possess this three hundred thousand years ago like

why why wouldn't they have it figured a lot of the stuff out they definitely did that's the thing like

the seafaring thing over one million years ago okay you can debate it it could have been an accident I suppose

“I don't think it is but you can debate it but I think that we have completely undisputable evidence that”

human beings were this intelligent 500 thousand years ago with the Columbus structure which we spoke about a lot last time like that is undeniable evidence that some kind of human was unbelievably smart 500 or 476 thousand years ago yeah was building houses or building something so some sort of structure whatever that is requires incredible levels of intelligence it is clear evidence of what we define as modern behavior right and it probably wasn't a one-off definitely not and this so this is what

you found so then it means were they teaching each other we did so okay so they were teaching each other what kind of language do they have what kind of concepts could they grasp you're not doing that without abstract thinking with symbolic intelligence right and how far did it go because if it's

test so how much how much do we not find most of it you're almost all of it because the chances

“of that surviving is so unbelievably unlikely I'm a moron but I have thought my thought was”

if AI can get so intelligent that it can do an accurate account of all of the objects on earth all of the people on earth all of the things on earth essentially every molecule that exists

on earth and then extrapolate back to how they got in that position in the first place whether

through natural or deposits natural disasters volcanoes all these different things like I wonder what kind of a version of a timeline we would be able to construct with like a super advanced artificial intelligence I wonder if it's possible to get a framework that is much more definitive than what we're looking at now I don't know if it's pot I mean you'd have to have enough technology that you would be able to literally like scan the entire outer crust of the earth

which seems daunting today but ground penetrating radar seemed ridiculous 500 years ago right so as we continue to expand I mean AI's solving it math equations that have

perplexed mathematicians for 50 years they're solving it like that so this is a new thing it's

it's very very rapidly emerging thing I wonder what kind of a what kind of a version what kind of a map of history at least in terms of like rough timelines of things will be able to get that's the great hope for archaeology right is that modern technology allows us to discover things that we previously would not be able to discover and as you say Lidar is the the current example of that but if you just extrapolate forward what else could we possibly use to discover

things that we can of course something like that will emerge because nobody even considered Lidar again 500 years ago what are you talking about 500 years from now who the fuck knows who knows we we literally can't imagine what kind of breakthroughs you're available that's the hope but again I think part of what makes me think that perhaps we're not going to discover stuff is this preservation problem because so much of it is just gone I mean I guess

if like what you say about me if we can like somehow extraordinary time machines yeah I mean they could figure out a time machine that they'll throw the whole monkey wrench right into the gears well I think that whatever happens our current understanding of history that's that cannot be the the kind of end point that what we currently think about history is is just just no way

“that we've like reached no there's no where we're done and that's what it frustrates me so much”

when people are so definitive about it because it's like you really think that we're not going to

because we know the science is always advancing in every single field all the time we we're never

at the point where we've discovered everything and yet there's always people in every period of history that think this is the kind of upper limit what would be around from 300,000 years ago other than what we found so far stone tools like that like that'll would all be gone well that's the thing everything would be gone unless it's like incredibly unlikely preservation like the Columbus structure like incredibly unlikely for it to happen but I mean there's could be

other things like that out there and they're almost certainly it's but yeah most things that we don't siting it's like God you don't want to dig up the whole world but you kind of do yeah it's not that old but this is a Jade sword with or sorry the handles Jade the sword would have

“been primed metal that's why the metals all fucked up but the handles not wow so anything with”

cool rocks or crystals or right the handle yeah the handles kind of all that's left the sword is a rotten piece of shit a few other old yeah that's the ones the these these disks or really weird or 3000 BC to 2000 BC but they have I was just doing the research up until the Ming Dynasty I think it was like 16 sick they have a book someone wrote about how they were doing this oh but that's that's in 1600 what did they do I mean various various things in 1600 yeah but some of these are

3000 years old and that which is weird Jade artifacts wow oh there's a weird how the glory shit don't net fright oh but well the description on how they did this I'm almost not I'm I'm I have to take it as they say it but like the description how they did it was like they would

dimensional little carvings yeah it says like they would put they'd get this lurry of water and that kind of makes sense that one that you just showed how old is that one I don't I don't even know what it is that's fucking weird it says how did ancient Chinese carve what's the word that's the question I asked without your metal tools this is the link I think what is that image that's crazy man with white now right what year's that oh that's a modern master okay that means sense that makes sense

because I was like how how could you do that that's like the flower petals and everything like that that seems like you need metal tools oh so this is just the article on the evolution of Chinese

“Jade yeah that is so okay so this is a modern okay that's what's good things other stuff that's”

older yeah a griffin obviously older some of these are drill like these little holes that if you look in zoom and real close you can see evidence of drills hmm that's not you know you could have hand drills okay yeah I mean you could have harder stone that you've figured out how to work into a position you could have sand and there's a bunch of things they could use pretty wild something like this I mean it's very crude yeah I mean all that is like

you could attribute that to ingenuity and you know craftsmen with years of learning how to work these different things it's when you get to large stuff that you're like okay how'd you get these stones from Aswan how'd you uh how'd you get a 50 ton block of granite and move it through the mountains

“with their roads help me out yeah but I've rolled it apart and you get hundreds of them thousands of”

a millions of them how'd you do it what do you yeah it is very wild and uh it didn't and they like some of these things I'll send you the Cassie coppersmith episode that I did with her because some of the stuff is like it's very confusing because the time lights pretty clear that this is older stuff and the older stuff is more complex and more difficult to create and seems to indicate the use of machinery you know one of the things she pointed out was it's crazy statue of a Buddha is that

in India where the guy achieved enlightenment by standing still and it's how'd it always it was a

90 feet tall the largest individual standing statue thousands of years old um looks like it's machine like really weird like really weird statue that's so much way stuff and yeah how did they

“get it there did you guys did you move it there or was it a stone that you said mm wouldn't be dope”

if we just yeah look at that fucker with a big giant hog but I mean it's really detailed it's like see if you find a good image of it young gem man there's some of my her photos still my computer yeah it's really wild and she said you see it from a long way away so many put their watermark right over his dog a rude yeah since they knew you're gonna be looking right there me now everybody humans there's also like the that Cassie temple the thing that

when they call us right yeah cover right down somehow uh hammer and chisel about me yeah

he noises it's incredible so that's the one where the an army went to try to destroy it

and they tried for years and they came up really yeah they barely put it fucking dent in it they scratched a few things up but they they worked on it for years to try to destroy it why because some new guy came along and said fuck these people in the temple yeah this isn't my like relationship my story yeah like what the Taliban did to those angel they blew them up yeah I mean there's over a thousand years old and they're like no no no it's just a palm error yeah

side I know it's really sad and if that's human inclination to do that kind of stuff like but how long how long have we been doing that like how much how much stuff yeah but stuff is not around anymore because some asshole came along and wanted it removed

yeah because it doesn't suit your narrative exactly because everyone's always building a story

humans have always done that built a story around to legit amizer power and rule and if it doesn't suit your story you destroy it and then yeah exactly would I be out to have someone that coffee hell yeah don't get on in there thank you I'll go wait myself up yeah you're a jet lagged trip across the pond yes exactly uh here he is this is what it looks like no while dude that's incredible yeah most of the um date on this the conventional date do we know that's a good

guess right like what is the guess of the timeline whatever it is it's very perplexing it's a

57 feet tall monolithic statue of Lord Bahu Bali okay so 93 CE that's the idea yeah 80 current era regardless the tallest Jane statue until 2016 construction of the statues commissioned by the ganga dynasty minister okay so how did you make that where did you get it how did you get it there you did that what you did that over a thousand years ago and how do you how do we know that that's the timeline I mean it's weird it's weird because it looks machined when you look at it

go back to some of the images please when you look at like the detail of the fingers and the toes and the uniformity of the face it's fucking weird man it's like these people had a lot

of fucking resources look at the size of that dude standing next to it like for real how do you get

that's if you if that's not a big giant contiguous block that was sitting there what does it

“made out of granite I think so that's not just a giant perfect slab of granite that happens to be”

roughly in the shape of a guy and you're like wouldn't that be dope if we made a dude out of that with a giant dong and just had them stare and over our kingdom but we don't do that anymore that's this way it we don't no one's built in things like this anymore certainly on our stone no yeah because we like to make money and it takes too much time to do a fucking pyramid when you can make a nice skyscraper and just a couple of years and put a big Trump on the roof yeah

no surviving technical manual records records rather the exact construction procedure archaeological and art historical understanding is that the artisans shaped the statue in situ removing stone around the intended figure roughing out the body then refining the face limbs hair and distinctive vines climbing the legs imagine if you fuck that up this approach avoided the near impossible task of quarrying transporting and raising a 17 meter finished sculpture onto a hill yeah so if they

moved it if there was definitive proof that it was moved there then there's another monkey wrench

“gets thrown into the whole thing and then then you have to go okay how but it does make much more”

sense if you just carved it out but also like how long would that take kind of tools are we talking about we kind of shitty ass tools the people have at 900 CE they did in India they did weird stuff in India where they just carved stuff right out of the stone like what what was the motivation to build these temples just carve them right out of volcanic stone it's insane crazy so detailed as well and it's insanely detailed and also some of the sculptures are three-dimensional like how

did you get behind them and carve that out and had you make all these like weird things or if you're seeing some of them where they go over it with a light and you could see a lot of three dimensional yeah and the barbar caves do you know about them also in India with its like completely mirror polished surfaces yeah yeah the conventional explanation for that is that they were just shelters right but why are they so precise they're like completely precise and they've got

this weird mirror polishing yeah you don't need that if you just building a shelter and how about those pillars it looked like they were cut on leads yeah like what how did you what's going on guys what did you we're missing so much are missing so many details about the past it's so frustrating if you're really interested in it because it's like how much do we know versus how much are we just

“assuming well that's the thing we're assuming so much and that's why bugs me what is presented as”

fact or presented as we now have all the answers because we clearly don't yeah what are the other

papers that have come out that have been so there was the paper about the one million year old

skull human skull that was found in China last year and this is super interesting because this is a a human with a modern sized brain but that was found a million years ago and so again that has implications for what was really going on a million years ago and if you link that to the what I would argue is modern behavior with the seafaring in Southeast Asia then you have a million year old skull found in China and in North East Asia you know push to stick these together and you suddenly

got human beings with modern brains doing modern things a million years ago and I think it's fascinating and so I mean the paper came out I think in October last year and what they did was they took

in the 1990s I think it was 1989 and 1990 there's two skulls Yunxian and one in Yunxian too

but they were badly deformed yeah they go Jamie Raton Q badly badly deformed and they were always

thought to be homo erectus because of where they were found China and how old they were over a million years old because that was the only type of human that should have been in China or in that area at that time at that at that age there was assumed to be a homo erectus but a few researchers from a university in China along with the natural history museum in London a professor named Professor Chris Stringer they applied modern reconstruction techniques to Yunxian too the second

skull and so they used something called CT scanning to reconstruct it and what they discovered was that they think it's actually a homo longie skull which is this part of the same cladder's

“Denisovan Denisovan and why that's important is the Denisovan is kind of like a sister”

how do you say Denisovan is Denisovan? I don't know I say Denisovan but they're a keep here in Denisovan I'm trying to change it yeah all the scientists say Denisovan but the cave is Denisova cave so it should be Denisovan you would think it doesn't matter Denisovan Denisovan whatever either way that these scientists think this skull is is homo longie which is a cladder Denisovan which is crucially a sister species to Neanderthal and us sapiens which means that if this skull is a

million years old and if it is homo longie that means that the divergence of our species must have

happened before them so when humans split into Neanderthal Denisovan and homo sapiens if this human was already walking around one million years ago that means that whatever became us had already

“diverged at that point so we were already at distinct species homo sapiens one million years ago”

which is staggering the long amount of time and so much older than what we thought before we used to think this was around 500,000 years ago so it's like a 400,000 or more than that jump from what we thought before have you heard the theory about Neanderthals that they believe that Neanderthals were not just a separate group of human but were actually created by humans interbreeding with other ancient primates what do you mean so instead of Neanderthals existing previously that homo sapiens

pre-date Neanderthals and that homo sapiens breeding with some other ancient primate some other one of these created Neanderthals maybe I haven't heard that I don't know yeah I don't know if it's right I read it and I was like what oh okay this is this is a crazy theory and it's um you know because the thawna's that Neanderthals were bred out with you know that there was interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals but that might have actually like predated Neanderthals

themselves like it might be the cause of Neanderthals is that humans homo sapiens bred with something else well we definitely bred with Neanderthals and it's probably the Neanderthals and Neanderthals and Neanderthals and Neanderthals and Neanderthals and Neanderthals and Neanderthals as well and we're all so similar the fact that we can have kids together is incredible and they actually recently found evidence of humans and the as in sapiens and Neanderthals actually coexisting for a long long time in the same place

and like living in the same place and because you could always argue before the perhaps it was you know

non-consensual breeding between like a Neanderthal male and sapiens woman but now we have evidence that we

“did live like a long side each other co-opressively uh I can't remember where the site is but”

that uh was found recently so yeah that's interesting as well because saving and find any whatever the hell I found about um Neanderthals possibly a result of humans breeding with other primates with other primates so it's not even I mean not other other humans we're not created by modern humans they're closely related extinct branch of the human family this is a very recent proposal yeah I might have asked the question to in a different way as well that Neanderthals

created by humans which isn't really well no um see if the if you search is there put this in is there a theory that Neanderthals were a result of human uh let me see homosexual sapiens homosapiens homosapiens breeding with other primates primates I guess you wouldn't say primates though because that's a monkey other homos other homos other ancient humans right that ancient humans ancient human species see what perplexities they're about those I wish I'd save that

mean the main scientific explanation I'm saying is there a theory I want to know if there's a theory

“well then I have to now I mean that's about how we're using this actual thing is I'm using it in a”

general way right but not as the main scientific explanation absolutely but is there a theory has anyone has anyone theorized this is possible ask that theorized that this is possible it's gonna have to crawl if it's new it's gonna have to crawl the websites to find that yeah you know I might not have I wanted to crawl I'm not we can't make it crawl crawl bitch yeah yes here it goes researchers have proposed hybridization based ideas

but generally not the exact claim that Neanderthals originally formed from homosapiens plus

another species what has been proposed paleontologist proposed a particularly late Neanderthal

early modern human fossils might be Neanderthal homosapian hybrids or descendants of populations that makes repeatally no this is not quite what I'm saying this is what's fucked up when you watch too many videos and you read too many articles and you don't save them this is quite a few months ago too

“did the dinosaur and things weird because there's recent proposals I think there's a paper I”

sent saying you in a podcast where they're discussing this paper that as of August like this month there's some speculation about the height of the dinosaurs and that they think

they might have been much larger than homosapiens of time yeah they found a bone they found a bone

a thigh bone I think under the sea and suggest the dinner soavins and everything we found about dinner soavins is that they were bigger than us so the teeth we found we haven't got much from them but the tooth is bigger the jaw bone is bigger the dragonman skull which has been classified as very similar to dinner soavins is bigger and they found this thigh bone that suggests that they were considerably over six foot tall and obviously that's not like a massive giant

but compared to you know the average height of a human today is something like a male human is something like 5-8-5-9 and so a Denise of them being over six foot is like quite a considerable jump from that so it's not like a mythical giant but it's still bigger than you'd expect an ancient human to be and it's also we're going with a limited amount of fossils so just from what we know they existed and with larger skulls uh recent genetic research confirms that modern humans

homosapiens and the animals repeatedly interpret of course a period spanning roughly 200,000 to 250,000 years ago while it's long believed that interbreeding occurred during a brief window of about 50 to 60,000 years ago advanced genomic mapping shows multiple waves of contact occurred much earlier 200,000 to 250,000 years ago an early wave of homosapiens migrating out of Africa encountered and made it with Neanderthals in Eurasia so what this guy was saying was that it might

not have been that but that even earlier than this Neanderthals were a result of human beings interbreeding with others or homosapiens interbreeding with others and I don't know thank you though what we're just at oh dinner solvents so just that one alone was way bigger than most humans at the time and just of the size of the head the bones are bigger it's a bigger brow it seems like a more robust larger version of a human and then when you take into account the range and size

of human beings given the the correct amount of resources and food and protein and we got seven foot plus humans that are all over the place today and imagine if these dinosaurven skulls which seem to be like completely different structure than a homosapiens we might they might be the giants of the Bible is the point yeah this might be what they were talking about like they're might have been a race of much larger people that were physically dominant over homosapiens

mm-hmm they could have been a considerably bigger and they don't even need to be that big for the the myth to kind of perpetuate you know I mean like just someone to be a little bit bigger and you encounter a group of them and you're like a same homosapian community you're going to

“remember that well whenever I do the UFC weigh-ins I'm still massive fucking you know these”

huge heavy weights like some of these guys are just gigantic humans you know six foot seven six foot nine two hundred sixty five pounds and they have to cut weight to make two sixty five

people that are around today that are that big if the Denisovans if we just have a limit we might

cut just a few small ones I mean that's like we don't know I mean I wonder what the fuck would happen if they found some bones that indicated there was a man that was nine feet tall and we know that primates can get that big and obviously we're a primate I can't remember what it's called but that's the one yeah absolutely gigantic as a professor for the name yeah so they can primates are kind of line of of animals can get really big so in that the long the same lines

“of like the the timeline of discovery of that as fascinating too because I think it was in”

the 1920s and archaeologists was in an apothecary shop in China and he found mullers that were from a primate that didn't make any sense really big yeah huge and he's like where did you get this and he went there and then that's where they found jaw bones and things so there's some we used to think that they were bipedal because I've read that before but now they're thinking that not not necessarily and that they might have been because like a lot of people thought

that's big foot you know this is myth that persists throughout Native American cultures for everywhere else yeah the thing that might have been an enormous orangutan like that movie what was it the jungle book yeah so a ten foot tall rag a time like what I mean it just makes sense if there's the people you know you brought up florist before now we know also know about those little hobbit people that live in the island florist that released three foot tall tiny

little people so the island dwarfism and then there's there there are totally different version of human beings of you know the human chain the human tree who knows who knows what these dinosaur vans look like an island gigantesism is also a thing in nature we see that and we see the animals right so yeah could apply to primates and to humans sure as long as they had enough food yeah it's just the idea of a dinosaur and I mean they they only discovered them in 2010 right

oh yes Sony and we have hardly anything about them so how many are we missing we literally have like a tooth of jaw bone and this thigh bone and a few of the right and how many other versions of humans are we missing yeah there's ghost populations in on DNA we know where we see humans like there are other types of humans that we just have nothing for yeah that's weird that show human we've ever seen that show that's on um god is it a BBC show oh yeah no I

watched it yeah yeah it's very interesting but she was on a podcast recently talking about um this ghost DNA how weird it is that a few hundred thousand years ago some something happened and there's this DNA that's in there and it's like what is this what's this stuff yeah there's so many of them populations of humans that we think existed because of our DNA but we don't know who they

well we've never found them and they could be you know very close to us but also with significant

differences and it's just it's all up in the end same with so much of prehistory we just we don't know yeah and I wonder like what kind of a society we're kind of if don't do they find stone tools with dinosaurs do they know that yeah it's really hard to attribute stone tools to anything because if you just have the tools you do you don't know what human use them what human made them

“right because you have to find like a skeleton and it's so hard to find a skeleton next to the”

tools and even then you don't actually know if it was that they made the tools we don't know yeah what else has been fascinating for you recently um so I think the question that I mentioned at the start the one like when did humans reach isolated land masses such as America and Australia is a really interesting question because again the old ideas we have have proven to be incorrect and I think it's especially in the

case of the Americas I think it's super interesting because obviously as you know we used to think

it was the closest first 13,000 years ago but so many sites now seem to be pushing that back

much much much much much much older into the past um so yeah that's a really interesting question I mean obviously now we know that humans have been in the Americas for at least 22,000 years with white science footprints which I'm sure you've heard of that yes 22,000 years yeah that's

“the oldest accepted evidence but I think there's loads of interesting sites that potentially”

push it quite a lot further back than that which are a bit more controversial but when you take them all together they're kind of yeah there's white science so that's now accepted I think uh by most archaeologists and what why that's important is it because it kind of opens it will up again because because of when the kind of ice the glacial maximums happen it kind of the

humans have been in the Americas it could go back way further and then you start looking at these

other sites and you think maybe it's a lot lot older so there's one in Mexico called Chickawita Cave uh apologies for the pronunciations probably wrong but this is uh 33,000 years old and high in the mountains of northern Mexico they found like 2,000 stone tools um and they did like 50 separate dates and the date isn't controversial what's controversial is if they were human-made tools um but the scientists working at the site think that this is evidence of humans

in the Americas 33,000 years ago then there's a site in Brazil called Pedro Ferrada which is 50,000 years old um is actually Chickawita yeah exactly so I mean it looks just like a tool but I mean

“people argue that they're natural um so it's up in the air it's not accepted yet but I think that's”

the probably the most uh the least controversial um 26,000 years ago yeah but it goes up to

it's like 30 to 33,000 years I think um but yeah there's a cycle Pedro Ferrada in Brazil where they found uh half like structures so people making fire they found charcoal they found black and stones uh he had stones rather uh and that they dated that to like 50 or 60,000 years ago so that's like a lot older than the white sands obviously um so that's a really interesting site again not fully accepted by archaeologists but the people working there are quite convinced that it's evidence

of human presence in Brazil which is obviously quite far south um 50 over 50,000 years ago um but the thing is you can't prove it because you haven't they need so many things to say for sure they need like a fossil of a human basically because of what you can say it's natural

yeah uh I don't know what those paintings are assuming they're more recent because I always

“that'll be pretty clear evidence um but I think the the half like structures and the the he”

it's known to the charcoal at a date it's over the house and it's going crazy go back to that last one please the red there that is why that is well I am assuming that is much more recent because of why so that would be very clear evidence of human presence but I think the oldest layers go back I think it's been continuously oh they think it's been continuously inhabited for thousands and thousands of years with the oldest being over 50,000 years old

yeah are they the tools they might be the tools that because so critics say that it's natural right but the those are natural things not tools yeah but a paper came out in 2023 that really made the case that is it's human presence so napping yeah and I I think it's I think it's leaning that way but it's just so hard to prove it right so it's not accepted yet but Jamie I just sent you a link that I found yesterday I thought it was pretty bizarre a completely different part of

the world but also really interesting it's a link to an Instagram video there's so much of this stuff

“now that's what's so cool it's like and if you're in a good algorithm you get intimidated give me”

some volume on this Jurian Sahara with 5,000 rooms and we still haven't seen all of them it's called Sephar no road's lead to it no vehicle can reach it the only way in is on foot through a maze of stone pathways that all look identical on the walls inside there are 15,000 paintings animals that no longer exist here rivers that dried up thousands of years ago and then things no one can identify floating

figures with no faces beings with round heads wearing what looks like suits a figure over three meters tall that the man who discovered it simply called a god most of Sephar is still unmapped whatever else is in there no one seen it yet I could do without that guys for voice is a little ridiculous I take the radio head out yeah settle down putty it sounds like an AI voice right like a super enthusiastic AI voice is that what it is it could be they very what could

be it definitely is gonna be in the future but um I don't what was it called I don't remember Sephar it's just uh yeah okay let's try a little bit of it let's see if we could look about in um Sub-Saharan Africa is another weird one right because especially the the Sahara itself like that used to be vast green grassy trees jungle like who knows what it was and now no one's really has really any an understanding of what's under that sand yeah but it was fertile and green

starting like around 4,000 BC is when it flipped to desert um so yeah I mean I'm sure this there has been archaeological work done in the Sahara but compared to the size of the Sahara there's there's just got to be loads of stuff under there that could potentially change our understanding of the origins of civilization for sure um very interesting region but yeah extremely hard to excavate for many reasons such as the climate and also political instability a lot of

those countries are pretty fucked off so it's hard to like go in there and do archaeology but very interesting region of the world and obviously that is where Egypt emerged just after this period so you know what were the people that kind of went to them I'll river doing before there's many interesting things there's um what's it called there's an interesting site not supplier

“I think it's good yeah it's from a little hard to get to the middle of the Sahara desert boy”

and Algeria cheese buried oh yeah I have heard of this actually somewhere in there fuck imagine you're an archaeologist you're tasked with you know someone gives you some funding hey Sahara desert boy we want you to get in there and go look around what yeah you it's pouring up the ideal place to go you can't even go without getting killed you don't get shot you could

literally die so no just imagine if you found something cool I imagine you found a bunch of cool shit yeah you go good luck it's good luck taking it out was there like oh where'd you get that yeah exactly exactly exactly they'll kill you that was also my thought I was going to bring that up about go back to the tapping about if they bring in more archaeologists more people did get they really truly expand they really have to keep track of what they find because the amount of money that

someone can get for an artifact on the black market is pretty incredible this is an issue with Egypt

right and South America yes and South America but each of them particular there's some inconsistencies with zahihawas's versions of like what was discovered in some places within a skeleton was in a sarcophagus versus what he said later you know like in the older versions there was a skeleton and the newer versions they didn't find anything so like did you sell skeleton because people sell I'm not saying he did but did somebody sell skeleton because people sell

skeletons and if you are some rich guy who lives in some other country and you're a billionaire from oil and you like you know what like you got a guy it's like you've got everything you got of all the Ferrari's like you know what I want Egyptian skeleton get me that good get me a mummy I want a fucking mummy oh any kind of artifacts or anything like yeah yeah especially something gold some ancient gold all that stuff was stolen out of there so was it melted down like for

grave robbers like that must have been an incredible place to be before everybody discovered all

those tombs because we know like with king taut which was preserved luckily nobody got into that until what we hear was that they found it two toned commons I'm not sure but within the last couple

“decades I think I'm not sure whatever it was it was I think it was a little longer than that but”

the point is it's like fantastic gold sarcophagus cover and massive fucking treasure trove of jewels and things like how much of that stuff is scattered in private collections in the world you know yeah and in South America like because they spent like underneath cousco there's all these tunnels right and people have known about them for a long long time but it took a long time for archaeology to kind of accept that they were there but people have been going like people

had like a tours and stuff down if the tunnels before it was like widely accepted and back then it's just right for people who are setting off to the black market because there's no control over it there's kind of an institutional control over it so people could just kind of do what they want

until it actually finally got like you know controlled by the authorities so yeah who knows what

when and all over the world as you say yeah there could be stuff that is really interesting that it's just out there and then there's the elongated skulls the weird fucking skulls and a long history of people discovering there's like how many people got the good ones how many of them

“were removed a long time ago and sit somewhere someone's like you have to go read all the”

rich guys of the world see what you go hide in your basement find some guy like what's your Google search like let's let's find out who's got the stuff because I mean if you're a person with a private museum if you if you've got that kind of money and like with there's people in the world that have private Jews right so they have so much money in other countries that they've you know they've basically the wild kingdom in the backyard you know and that guy's like well I got that

and I like the way it looks I want that in the house you know it's got to be people like that in the

world this guy he's one of them here he goes 91 year old Don Miller from Indiana

“he had thousands of artifacts removed from his house oh wow I think he had Egyptian mummies whoa”

I'll try to find the good pictures in the dark psycho so they seized his stuff how they find out about that he was he on Instagram a delegation from China went to Indiana to claim there whoa a delegation from China I wonder if they showed up with guns give me your ship back FBI rated a 91 year old missionaries home and found thousands of stolen Native American bones whoa Amazon river canoe wow Ming dynasty jade an Egyptian sarcophagus and a dugout canoe that had traveled

down the Amazon river wow it's just in his house there's a picture of his house and another thing I had it mad I mean it's just all how this guy get the scratch where's he getting the money for all us what this guy do I don't know why there's not a movie about him after 10 years FBI returned 7000

“rare artifacts looted by Indiana grave robber oh he's a grave robber that's you know that's what they call”

so it's just a dude who is a collector he's might might not necessarily be a grave robber I don't think this is the same guy they found FBI found 42,000 relics and 2,000 human bones in a man's home whoa what's up what is that a horse a sloth yeah looks at a penguin right 42,000 relics oh same guy no don't know whoa it is the same guy that's crazy

this guy's not he died in 2015 too bad he was 91 when agents first knocked on his door in 2014 while

he only lived a year later the 42,000 artifacts hoarded by Miller represented with maybe the largest ever seizure from a private collection so this was interesting it's like are they saying that he's not allowed to acquire them like do we have rules in terms of like say if you found some stuff I know we have rules about Native Americans right FBI became involved in the learned thousands of items were obtained in violation of antiquities laws and federal and state statutes

according to the FBI Miller went on digs around the world and illegally brought his finds home to the United States okay I think Nick Cage had to get back that skull he bought because it was

stolen from somewhere something he bought a skull like a T-rex skull oh never thought oh he had a

gift bag his T-rex skull because they found out that it was like stolen so give it back I don't know have what the money but whoa how much is the T-rex skull also I was thinking this guy got fucked they found this guy there's gotta be we just I brought him up because I knew about it he you know probably talked about it at the bar and all that kind of yeah what about the people who don't he's on Facebook yeah about the people who don't those are all on Facebook um have you seen the

dinosaur that ways to well has ways to well legally purchased a dinosaur like a dinosaur bone some aquatic dinosaur that they have suspended in their ceiling ready okay you can buy dinosaur bones people a skull for $276,000 wow he volunteered to return the fossils of the Mongolian government after US authorities found it was smuggled wow um see if you can find the ways to well dinosaur yeah you can buy dinosaur bones it's pretty cool it's a lot of people that don't

believe in dinosaurs lately this is very confusing why what what's the reason and oh just they've been lied to about everything maybe dinosaurs too and then people think that dinosaurs were actually the dragons of ancient history and that that's uh that's all bullshit it's the dumbest theories I mean

“like you know we have I there there's the ways to well dinosaur that's what looks like that's pretty”

dope yeah it's pretty sick some sort of an aquatic dinosaur uh how much of that is actual bone and how much of is replica I don't know some of them are replica I think that's actual bone but like uh they have T a T wrecks is I think the most complete T wrecks is I want to say 80% what is the most complete T wrecks skeleton ever found no one just sold um recently uh at an auction oh yeah

oh there you go well discovered with 90% of its skeleton recovered hmm yeah we know a lot folks this idea that dinosaurs aren't real is it's really silly not definitely real yeah whoa okay

so that's real guys stop that's a real skull the problem is there's been deception and one of the

one of the big pieces of deception is when you go to a lot of museums and you see a dinosaur skeleton

“you assume that's how they found it and they put it back together again whereas a lot of the pieces”

of those bones are not real yeah a lot of the pieces are recreations and entire entire uh some entire skeleton so they're museums or all a recreation there's no actual bone that you're actually looking at and so then people like hey all right same with uh it's the same with ancient sites for 67 million years old 80% intact so like just that alone 80% of that is real um they're real get some fucking a real thing that existed just like fucking crocodiles are still real today

there was a real group of large reptiles that roam the earth for a long time but the crazy thing I think dinosaurs really highlight the kind of fragmentary nature of the fossil record right because

they existed for 160 million years or something like that but we only have like a few thousand

fossils from that huge amount of time and just shows how little survived right yeah exactly and that the fossil records just really weird it's a it takes a lot to make a fossil so we have a tiny fraction of the actual data and we have to extrapolate out from from that and just that's

“our understanding and that's why we do not know what happened in the deep past we're just in it”

talking cool yeah so cool I love it that's why I do I do my I love I love it yeah I don't know anybody who when you first learn about this to anybody that I want to talk to when you first learn about this stuff you don't go well you know because it's it is so interesting and um that's why to me the um reaction to Graham Hancock's Netflix series was so strange like so unhinged like why why are you guys freaking out about this and calling it the most dangerous show yeah I mean I've

experienced this first hand now because let me last time I was here wasn't really known about but now I'm a kind of people know who I am and I get so much hate it's weird because people like paint me out to be something I'm not like and it's just so strange because I'm me and I know I think and I know I believe and yeah obviously you like experienced out of a whole different level but yeah I've experienced it from the government but it's just why it is so weird when people

like paint you out to be someone that you're not and put words in your mouth and like strange but you'll get used to it um that the key is just don't read it that's the key like you're going to be aware of enough of it peripherally people bring it to your attention if it's really important in order if it's like significant none of it's going to really be important but as long as you and you're a very conscientious guy and you do a really good job like I said up being objective

“and measured and that's all you need to do just keep doing that just don't read the comments”

yeah because there's a bunch of people out there that are just very unhappy period no matter what

and when someone is getting a lot of attention they're very angry always and there's whatever

that number is one out of a hundred one out of a thousand it doesn't matter when they reach you that negativity is never good for you it's only bad and it sits with you a little bit more like you get where the positive comments be already you know like exactly and you the negative one section you'll brain because you know it's really interesting is like people have done like hip pieces on me and shit but and obviously loads of negative stuff comes through but also I've

had like actual archaeologists and actual people working in natural institutions reach out to me and say like you know these are like actual archaeologists and they're saying like Michael we value your work and like we actually think you're an important voice and stuff like that and I I find that really encouraging because these are you know it's easy for us to think about archaeologists is like a kind of bogey man they're like one of suppressor this stuff but they're not all like that

you know someone might open to these particularly the young ones basically people that are coming up that really the reason why they got into this in the first place is because it's such a fascinating subject and like you when you've you've spoken on this when you were in school and you were getting your degree you were confused as to why these alternative perspectives weren't entertained I think there's a lot of young people that feel confined by the gatekeepers they can they feel

confined by the career academics that are sort of in charge of who gets 10 year, who gets jobs, who gets grants and it's a very confusing thing you don't want to ruffle any further step

insane for something that is so inherently curious curiosity driven so inherently unknown as well we do not know. Brass we keep saying right right we're not talking about stuff that's like you know a stab of science where you can clearly you know it's not mathematics it's something like weird you know you're you're you're you're looking at hints of the past and the more we look the more

we find older stuff it's like grandma always says stuff just keeps getting older yeah

it's crazy well it's just so cool that you're out there making videos and that you could do that for a living now. I know it's why I feel so lucky that I get to do something I'm so interested in and talk about these topics and also to like create not to sort of like inspire this thinking and other people that's really what I want to try and do is to get people thinking about history from this different perspective and to think about the unknown and think about the potential

that what humans could have been doing now that we know that and mine like ours could have existed for a million years that humans like us could have been habit at this planet for such a vastly longer length of time than we used to believe and all the possibilities that throws up more

“than anything that's what I want people to to think about when they watch my work I don't want”

to tell them to believe this or tell them to believe that I just want them to kind of think about themselves and open their minds to the possibilities that could have occurred and that doesn't

mean that people always say that I like saying that there's like advanced civilizations in

prehistory I'm not saying that I'm just saying there's a lot more on the table than we used to think and I think that's really fascinating I wish more people would kind of take that possibility seriously and that's why I get encouraged when I get these emails from people that actually in the institutions because they're the people that are going to rewrite the textbooks like I can say what I want like I'm just a YouTuber but we need the people that actually work

in these institutions to think in this way and then then I think we might update I'll think and on these things I think there's a lot of those young folks that are coming up now in archaeology that do have alternative perspectives within not they're being suppressed and it's also very

encouraging for them to see a pathway outside of academics academia like what you're pursuing

and to see like not only is this viable but you can do it with the the proper approach like the way that you're doing it where you're not you're not making crazy claims I'm saying the aliens did it you're not saying anything nutty he just saying hey there's a there's a there's a lot going on here and to pretend that we have an accurate map of the territory seems silly

“yeah I think I just think there's so much more on the table now than they used to be only a few”

decades ago and I think that's so exciting when we look at our past because as I say it's the reason we're all here right it's the reason we live in this civilization is the answer to these questions and we don't know the answer to these questions anymore so let's talk about you know yeah what else have you found recently that's interesting yeah so I mean I was still there's still um there's an older American site so um so there's obviously just a really master on site which is

130,000 years old which is controversial but I think that's like the master on bones were they appeared to be it's appeared signs of human smashing the bones to get the marrow yeah just after like fresh leaf smashed after the animal had died and they they found like these animals like these things that look like tools next to the bones and it's controversial because we can't prove that that was human activity but it looks like human activity it was even published in nature in

2017 so you know it's another little date of point that pushes back human presence in the America potentially to over a hundred thousand years ago and there's even more there's a site called

“a calico where I think this one's a little bit I don't I don't really buy this one but a very”

famous archaeologist called Louis Leaky who's like one of the top names in the archaeology in the 20th century he believed the calico showed evidence of human presence in the Americas over a hundred thousand years ago as well so so another date of point and then there's um then there's way at Laco which I think you've heard of have you heard of where at Laco is this site in Mexico where they had this volcanic ash over these human tools and they dated the ash to like crazy numbers

I'm talking like 300 thousand four hundred thousand five hundred thousand years ago and the tools will below this layer. What? Yeah so now I'm not aware of that one. So in the 1950s there was a a Mexican archaeologist who was doing some work in the vascular base in in Mexico near the city of Pubella and he was finding all these extinct places seen animal remains there alongside human activity so he called in some American archaeologists and they did some work and they identified

the site called we at Laco which is an archaeological site there and they found these very sophisticated stone tools they're like bifacial stone tools which means they've been worked on on two sides and it's quite a sophisticated level of tool and so they found this and they were like okay this is

to date the kind of sediment around the tools to around eight thousand to ten thousand years ago

because they knew about a volcanic eruption that had happened at that time and so they expected the volcanic ash to be from that so they did all this testing but then they found that their ash was giving these crazy dates like 200,300,300,000 up to 600,000 years old and that was completely

“mental because the tools were below this layer of ash and then they dated a camel pelvis I think”

that was in situ with the tools and that camel pelvis came back to 250,000 years old as well and that was in the same layer of the tools so they kind of brought all their different dating methods together and there's multiple kind of geological dating methods on the sediment the ash and also the camel pelvis and they kind of collected all this to a date of 250,000 years ago for this site for where these tools were found and yeah and so they tried to publish this

and they received like immense pushback because obviously this was the time of the Clovis first paradigm and you know people weren't ready for Clovis to be broken and let alone by such a huge margin like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years old and they couldn't publish for like 20 years and by that time many of the artifacts had got missing and they didn't know where they were and the site actually got raised like it got kind of removed yeah and I don't and I'm not trying

to say that's like some conspiracy or anything but it just means that you can't really prove it but

they did eventually publish and they the geologists have always stopped by this date and there's

multiple lines of evidence that suggests that the tools were found below this layer of roughly 250,000 years old and that's obviously like hugely older than we think humans have been in the Americas so it's a very interesting site I want to give a shout to Will Brown who's got a channel called Incredible History he's actually been to the site and he kind of like nudged me in the direction of looking into this one he's got a great channel but yeah it's super

interesting because we can't prove it because the tools have gone missing the site no longer exists but there's a paper out there written by serious scientists saying that you know there could be human presence in the Americas over 200,000 years ago potentially even older than that and that would just radically change our understanding of humans in America so then when you put all these sites together so obviously white sands is the earliest at 22,000 but then when you add that to check away

take care of us I mentioned earlier 33,000 Pedro Ferrada and Brazil over 50,000 so Rudy Master Don 130,000 I don't really think Calico is I don't think that's natural but then we're at Larko at 250,000 you know it only takes one of them to be right for our understanding of when humans

“reached America to radically shift and I think it's only logical that humans were in America a lot”

longer than we think because you know when we're talking about the vast span of time that we've been on this planet why couldn't we have reached these places right and then the question is how does we reach them and from where you know from where exactly that's the the weird thing is some of the when you look at like pyramid structures for instance like where did that idea come from how did that idea make it to the Aztecs it would have the well before

pyramids you know weird I mean you could say that it's just like a logical way of building things but maybe who knows well there's also the weirdness and the fact that the Aztecs themselves didn't build the parents I was some of them yeah like yeah tell to walk on was there before and they said it was the name literally means place where the gods lived and they found it there and so it was before them they don't know who built it right they give us lots of our names they get they gave us

the name Olmec I'll make means the rubber people because they knew about the Olmecs then you they existed before them but they didn't know really know who they were but they just called them the

“rubber people is because they lived around rubber trees I think it's because they use rubber or something”

amount of essential well so what's the conventional theory about who built these Aztecs temples

I think the theory is that it was a culture that came just before the Aztecs that we don't have a name for but they don't they don't know they don't know and you don't know anything about them you don't have a name for them but they made insanely sophisticated architecture with stone that mirrored the cosmos yeah no one knows who built the pyramid of the sun I think that's what it's called it to walk on it but it's ginormous and it's incredible and so these different

layers to it and incredibly sophisticated we don't know who built it we don't really know when they built it I mean we think we know kind of the region but we don't know as is the case with so much of this stuff we do not know is there a conventional timeline if I tell you to walk on yeah did they like

is as long as a thousand years before them yeah I mean that's kind of what I mean by right before

'cause I'm thinking it's a long time yeah the United States is not even 300 years old yeah yeah yeah of course but yeah but what I'm trying to say is I don't think it's like you know way way way right right right right so somewhere around a thousand years before but that's the things like how many of these things happened where there was some sort of a civilization and then it collapsed and then new people came along like the idea that you would have a civilization that was

capable of building something as fantastic as some of those Aztecs constructions and then they would just go away which lost all memory of it all memory of it and then people just wanted up their one day the Aztecs and they're like whoa what is this you know like and it was probably covered with jungle right yeah I mean how many of those things were just absorbed by you know the just the just nature just no wonder they think it was built by gods right because you see and

you're like that's incredible right built this it must have been the gods and there's no one

living in it mm-hmm and just so shows how easily human civilizations can reach a really high peak level of sophistication and then go down again and collapse and just all memory of them is gone yeah and the other cool things you've discovered recently was also the question of when humans reach Australia which I think is another really interesting question because the conventional time is 65,000 years ago and there's a cycle of magic baby in northern Australia and that's the earliest

accepted site in Australia and that's right in the north of the country and it makes sense because

“you have to you have to cross water to get to Australia you have to build boats and cross water”

but there's another really interesting site that's right in the south of Australia where archaeologists found blackened stones again and charcoal and half-like structures and they dated this site to 120,000 years ago which is double just about double the time that we think humans are in Australia and it's in the very south of the country and the archaeologists that have working there actually wrote in their paper that the evidence supports a cultural origin over a natural origin so they think that

it's cultural as in human rather than natural but they can't prove it because there's no associated artifacts and no associated skeletons but they think that it it kind of leans towards being a cultural origin and obviously if that's correct that means human beings were only in Australia twice as long as we thought but also had inhabited the entire continent or not inhabited but had gone through the entire continent right down to the very south of the country twice as old as we thought and it's

just another thing that's like pushing an order and order and order and it's not accepted but it's so hard to prove these things because we can't find skeletons or we can't find skeletons but it's extremely rare so the bar is so high for proof but this site called Moijel 120,000 years ago

“is I think very strong suggestive evidence that human beings have been in Australia twice as long”

as we think and obviously that means that they had to have got there by boat and yeah that's another wasn't there something that was done on the genetic connection between Australia and Aboriginal people and didn't the solvents yeah yeah they think that maybe there was different migration re pathways in different human species potentially also reached Australia and it's not that well because if you think back to the the seafaring thing we were talking about earlier if people were

reaching islands over a million years ago then why couldn't they have reached Australia much earlier

than we think yeah because if we had that capability for so long why not when they do this is this I mean because obviously they didn't even know about tennis ovans until 2010 so is this like genetic analysis and if if so like do they have genes like how how how do they get genetic material from these tennis ovans skeletons I think you can take it from like if I'm not sure but I think you can I think they know the kind of

genetic makeup of of the different human species and so they think you can tell that way if

“you've got like a trace of the DNA yeah that's what I was saying like if it's fossilized do they”

have actual DNA from tennis ovans and if they do like how are they how are they guessing that people Aboriginal people in Australia have some traces of it so like Europeans have traces of Neanderthal and also people in I think like Nepal and these high-out which you places they have quite high trace of the Neacivine DNA and that's what they think allows them to live in high altitude environments they think that the Neacivines are more robust than modern humans and

could live in more extreme environments and they think that people that live in those kind of

sure that's the science behind it but they think they have the traces of that and that's what

allows them to live in these more isolated high-out which you'd environments so they think then the sovans lived in high altitude mostly maybe they don't maybe they don't know but well there's only a few bones right exactly so it's really hard to tell so fucking interesting man and also in that region they they found recently the oldest evidence of advanced surgery which is like way older than we think it's like 31,000 years ago they found some surgery in Borneo which is

again in this same region it I think Indonesia is such a fascinating region because it's the place of where the sun to shelf was where obviously the sea levels risen have covered a huge expansive land that used to be land but now no longer is and so many interesting discoveries here but they had this surgery thing is they found the skeleton of a child that had had his leg amputated and but had lived for many many many many years afterwards and his whole like lower leg

had been amputated off and but like healed like completely and he lived like or she I think has ago lived like a lot longer after that and obviously that's quite a advanced thing to to do right

“because you have to understand how to prevent infection you have to it's a very humid place as well”

it's very hard to survive probably was very painful for that individual but this pushback are understanding of surgery by like 20,000 not maybe not quite that long I can't remember I think it was like 7,000 years ago so yeah I'll buy a long way because this is 31,000 years ago so again it's showing prehistoric humans to be far more sophisticated than we think they were performing surgery 31,000 years ago and surviving and living for years afterwards and that isn't saying I wonder if

they had any pharmacological interventions I could deal with the pain well I think they would have used wild plants because we've got so much evidence now of other human species and our human species using wild plants to as medicinal purposes we see in the end of those doing that a long long time ago like cultivating wild plants and using them as pain killers and stuff like that what's going to kill the pain of a fucking amputation well probably not much but a bone saw

right and they're like what kind of tools that they have like what were they doing it with how they how they stitch people up do they have needles do they have thread they just leave the wound open like what do they do but whatever they did it worked and they were sophisticated and really to keep that person alive and to care for them and for them to live years afterwards excuse me it's wild it's wild so it's yet more evidence of people being just a super

sophisticated so much longer in time than we thought and it all points in one direction man which is humans have been her longer they've been more intelligent than we thought for a long long time if you had a guess what do you think is the oldest real true civilization how long when do you think it started so I think in terms of like what we call civilization in terms of our current like cycle of it if you like I think it is touch depeller

and wherever came before that but I don't think it would probably been that far further before

that but I think that from the onset of the holocene I think we basically started right away

all over the globe and you know call a develop civilization because it happens everywhere right

“back to question one why did happen everywhere all over the time because I think that's what”

humans do I think once we get a stable period of climate we we innovate because agriculture and civilization can't have been a very hard invention to do because everyone did it it happened everywhere all over the world so it's not like a really unique hard thing to do because people did it everywhere so that makes me think of what about all the other periods of stable climate that we've had and now that we know that humans have been around for so long we've had

it's something like four stable war periods in the time that we have modern sapient fossils

so 300,000 years but then if you extrapolate that out to this million-year time scale of modern

size brains and modern behavior with the seafaring it's something like 11 war periods that we've lived through of stable climate conditions that have lasted for over 10,000 years so you look at each of those war periods and you think if agriculture and civilization isn't that you know hard size make up an invention to do why couldn't it have happened in those previous war periods 11 of them going back to a million years I'm possibly beyond there's also that very weird phenomenon when

when someone somewhere figure something out even if people aren't connected other places in the world people figured out the same time then we we know it to be the case today. Rupert Sheldrick has

“a term for it I think he's home is it morphic resonance so his his term is is also based around theories”

that they've done with rats and mazes that if you teach a rat a maze on the east coast rats on the west coast learn it quicker really yeah yeah he's got lots of interesting work as any about kind of

cashic record that there's probably some sort of shared field of information that whether or not it's tangible and you can you know write it down verbatim or whether or not it's from sort of implied concepts and ideas that are transmitted through the species that like creativity itself is almost like something that we tap into like uniformly has a species. It's like you can like I almost but like we're in Montana yeah yeah and that like when Michael button figures something else

come on the other part of the world's like oh I feel it yeah it's just very weird it's a very weird idea yeah you know and it's it's impossible to prove or I mean you can you can imply it

“and the wrap thing it's very interesting I think they've done them with some other things as well”

you know so it's it's it's interesting because like if that's not the case then what do you have a sea-faring civilization that travels the entire globe do you have something that so so advanced they figured out how to traverse continents and they're bringing all this information with them is it one group no it seems like they all kind of figure it out at the same time or roughly but it is pretty much the same timing comparison to the amount of time that we've been

on the planet right it's not coincident it's an explosion exactly yeah so why because the the reason given is the climate that's the old reason but I think that is the reason because you know the climate got warmer so agriculture civilization and yeah that makes sense but then why not before why not in all of these 11 warm periods where humans have been here right and been smart if it's such a common invention why didn't happen before right maybe it did maybe it did

“it's also interesting how much stuff like if you think about the global temperature like where's it”

always warm what's always warm around the equator kind of always stays warm around there and what's

around there well the Amazon yeah and even in periods of yeah like the fully glaciered periods some places on the earth were perfectly habitable right so who knows but then I mean and that goes back into like you say the Amazon and goes back into the question of how long if humans been in America because if we've been in America and the Americas for a lot longer than we think then people have been in the Amazon a lot longer we think and then you look at the discoveries

in the Amazon and how there's been civilizations there a lot further back in time than we thought well how far back in time obviously the evidence we've seen so far doesn't point like crazy back in time but we don't know well there's so little evidence that's the problem I mean they're just recently discovering these grids right and so how much archaeological work has been done on all these grids oh yeah exactly so hard and also there the rainforest is such like a extreme recycling

kind of natural machine that's going to destroy anything that's this older than then uh right a few thousand years ago so it doesn't mean there's not stuff that's older than a few thousand years ago just means there's nothing left and they could have built in organic materials that have just decayed

and you would never see it and they could have been doing that hundreds of thousands of years ago

and who knows so it's wild man it's so wild I think there's the potential is all enormous just

“absolutely enormous and that's why I do because I think it's so fascinating and I love talking”

about it and I love getting other people to think about it and that's the great privilege of me being able to do this job so yeah well it's an important job it really is because those videos all of they are you know just YouTube and they're entertaining they're just you know something then anyone can digest there's so much valid fascinating information on them and so many valid questions that we really can't quite answer and expands like when people watch them you get this

understanding like oh wow this is a big puzzle this this thing is really complicated like it's a lot more complicated than we've been told especially by you know people that want you to believe that they have they have the answers yeah that's what I hate it I hate the certainty that people

talk about the past because I never talk about with certainty I'm not saying this is necessarily true I'm

just saying you know possibilities everywhere so many different possibilities and yeah everything we seem to discover pushes it in one direction that's older and more intelligence back in time and yeah there's so many interesting things and we haven't even barely scratched the surface today I know what you do this for days um before we wrap it up those are any any other really interesting ones that you'd like to talk about yeah there was something interesting that came out uh in

regards to writing there's a couple of interesting things regarding writing so obviously writing is the kind of marker of civilization like writing the ganz civilization began but we're starting to see evidence of symbolic meaning being transmitted through symbolic notation like way back further in time then we believe so obviously the earliest writing is still thought to be about 4,000 BC with the ancient Mesopotamian uniform and stuff like that but as you mentioned of and think all they're

but there's much much older evidence of humans conveying information in a symbolic fashion so

“there's um an archaeologist called Jenna Genevieve von Petzinger I believe she's called and she found”

evidence that on all these ice age paintings that we find in Europe with all these incredible

like bulls and bison and stuff and you've probably seen them but next to them is like this kind of symbol of notation that people have kind of overlooked for years but she found 32 recurring signs across a period of 30,000 years all across the continent and these signs she thinks are like a not a language as such but a kind of a system of encoding meaning yeah there you go they're the signs and she kind of makes the argument that these signs are um um not a language as such but a kind of

tradition of conveying information that lasted for 30,000 years and that is such a long length of time like if you think about the oldest language today is I think it's ancient Chinese and that's only a

few thousand years old and yet these signs appear all across the continent of Europe across the

“time span of 30,000 years I pretty much exactly the same and just these signs and they also find them”

in other continents as well and she doesn't say there's any connection there I'm not sure there is any connection there but the spirals are really weird they find spirals all over the place right yeah they find these signs all over the world that you Jamie you might be able to find uh all over the world yeah there's like a cool map where they kind of point where it's will find if you scroll down a little bit uh on the left uh that one yeah you see this that's really blurry

yeah once it loads but it's all over the world there you go and it's the same signs wow that's crazy so the same signs in Europe North America Central Africa South America Southern Africa Australia Malaysia East Africa New Guinea wow Borneo Myanmar and she thinks it's like a much older symbolic tradition that humans have kind of carried with them in the kind of migratory roots and it actually goes back much older than the the Ice Age art date of like 40,000 years

but actually comes from when humans first reach sheer apart of Africa and spreading across the

world and we've kind of kept the same tradition of conveying information and again this has massive implications for human intelligence because even though it's not a full language the ability to convey information in a symbolic way is a is a marker of really sophisticated intelligence and so it's another really interesting discovery that kind of points towards intelligence and also the the kind of the to maintain that tradition over such a long length of time is really interesting because we don't

really do that last I say the oldest languages ancient Chinese that's only a few thousand years old and yet these people somehow managed to pass on this language quote unquote for 30,000 years have you ever heard anybody discuss the concept that human beings might have had some sort of some sort of telepathy that atrophy when we started using language and writing and communicating with words what's really

interesting is the human brain size has decreased since civilization began which is strange because because and it makes sense because if everything was oral before you need more of your brain to hold all the information but once you can kind of outsource it to physical objects you don't need so much brain like size and space how much does it decrease I can't remember if it's off my head but it's I don't think that's even controversial I think there's quite a

lot of evidence that the human brain size has decreased a little bit in the last 10,000 years or whatever well what weren't like there was some ancient people that thought writing was a bad idea

“and that you should you should remember everything and that writing and writing things down”

was actually going to degrade your memory why does something I think it certainly does because you don't need that brain like part of your brain anymore if you if you're not memorizing with the information you have like it makes us smart as a whole as a civilisation but they extrapolate so to hard drives exactly well he is happening it on a bigger scale now with AI and stuff like that exactly same process though like people talk about ChadGPT decreasing

people's intelligence because it outsources thinking itself which is a crazy step and we're going to just go like a reason so yeah yeah so I mean maybe we're regressing but I think as a civilisation we're learning more and yeah collectively but as the individual right maybe we're regressing and our potential to learn and just to remember things like when I just from when I was a boy I knew everybody's wrong number yeah yeah and I know three people's wrong numbers because we

that came out regarding language which is they found um over 200 objects and this around the same

day around 40,000 years ago and they basically found like a pro-to-right in script that had the same

level of complexity as the early Sumerian scripts from 3000 BC but from 40,000 years ago in I say Europe again so it's like another kind of pro-to-language symbolic thinking and conveying meaning through symbols I don't know if I can't remember if I had Jamie but if you type in like it was this year so if you type in PNAs pro-to-righting uh 40,000 years ago or something they found it loads of like symbols engraved on bones and they argued that it was the same level of complexity

as the early Sumerian scripts and again this was the marker of civilisation 3000 BC but now it's this capability is so much older now because of these new discoveries yeah I saw that it's really weird like when you're looking at the writing like okay what are they like the little scratches on the bones and clay and whatever it is like what are they what are they conveying do we even

“understand what they're conveying or just assume they're conveying something well I think they”

categorized it and they they seem to think it is a kind of pro-to-script fucking weird man like that's a script well a pro yeah like a pro-to-script so like the kind of thing that became language but right so there had to be a precursor language but if it everton language but if it if it existed 40,000 years ago it's so much older than we used to think this capability emerged yeah and what does that what does that kind of entail what can I see that again Jamie the images how weird and so

at the bottom that looks a lot were punitive I think these I think these ones are examples of more advanced but they're saying it's at the same level as this but 40,000 years ago which is vastly older than beautiful it's so interesting oak I'm sure you've seen the we talked about this history as well the Italian guy who came up with this concept of erosion dating oh in the pyramid yeah yeah that's that's another weird one like at the high end he thinks it

“might be 20 plus thousand years old it's like okay what yeah yeah because he compared the erosion because”

there was an earthquake like 500 years ago they come and shook all these casings stands of

yeah and he compared the erosion with the blocks that had always been exposed with the ones

that had recently become exposed and yeah he got this day I mean I'd like to see that method like tried and tested on sites we know the age of and you know prove in that way before I take that too seriously but you know it's interesting and it's all interesting listen you show super interesting I'm sort of glad you're around so that someone like you that's one of these do that kind of work because obviously Jamie and I and I can do it but we're super happy to have

you in any time you got some new stuff you want to talk about and I'm really excited that your channel just keeps growing because it's really good man you can really tell you put in so much work and so much effort and research and it's just excellent it's super entertaining it's right up my alley so I appreciate you thanks for being the fucking man thank you I was very back at you and I really appreciate all the support you showed me like it doesn't go on notice man like it it really

means a lot and yeah if I could just do a little self-plug real quick like I've drawn I've got my channels Michael button search up everyone and check me out but also I just started a second channel called Pants of History because I'm really interested in once we move into recorded history it's really interesting to see how when the silence lifts and we have these ruins we can crosscheck and these dates we can kind of match to different civilizations it's so interesting how

civilizations seem to follow the same patterns all over the world of rise collapse fall and things

“like that and it applies to day I think we see the same patterns happening and civilizations”

always think that they're more advanced and there we go thanks yeah better than the ones before but

right I mean it's another fucking I could go on for another three hours on that but it's so it's so interesting how we see the same recurring patterns happen throughout civilizations across recorded history as well so that's like another little project that I'm working on but I'm still uh I'm still gonna go as hard as I possibly can on the kind of archeological lost history well it's beautiful that you have so much time to do two different channels too it's awesome well I'm trying my best well

you're kicking ass dude congratulations it's awesome always great to have you thank everyone here one more time people want to see your channel they want to find you what's the best place I know you're on Spotify now as well right through just audio yeah what is the videos as well as well yeah I just put them up there so people can if people some people prefer to listen they let me know that so yeah I put out their um so yeah I've got both my channels and what's about to make some

music if you wish to check it out really yeah I'm in a band this is my band oh that's the alien head that's

you get it it's like the headache yeah um so people want to check that out it's kind of music punk rock

“oh I see a fucking punk rock yeah I used to do that all the time and then covid kind of”

fucked us up and we couldn't perform live and I'd drum and move to Australia but we're going to try

to make some music again in the near future so that's awesome this is headache dot com if people want

“to check that out but yeah check it out alright Michael thank you appreciate it look at that there you go”

goes on moody look in mother fuckers yeah the boy the back get your hair yeah bro can't see like that

fire buddy.