1305: Johnathan Walton | How to Spot Scammers, Grifters, and Thieves

A professional con artist is a psychopath and they're not like you and me.

We get a thrill from writing a rollercoaster and like that's fun. But for them, the fun is creating these worlds that do not exist and watching with a godlike sense of glee as we say what they want us to say, we do what they want us to do. It's like they're directing a movie. We're all their actors, but we don't know it, but they do.

“And that's what they get off on. That's what brings them joy. They're not regular people.”

They are psychopaths. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your

own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical

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disinformation, social engineering, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, we're talking scams, real scams, not the Nigerian prince wants your bank account kind of thing, but the kind that comes wrapped in a hug sits at your dinner table and calls your mom Auntie. Our guest today was scammed

by somebody he considered family. And instead of crawling away a shame like most victims, which by the way is exactly how scammers keep operating, he went nuclear. He sent his scammer to jail. Then he made it his mission to warn the rest of us, because con artists don't outsmart you, the good ones out feel you, they don't beat your logic, they beat your emotions. And once his story went public, thousands of people came to him with their own con artist horror stories,

and he started noticing patterns, red flags that show up in just about every scam.

“That's what we're going to go over here today on the show, and we'll walk through every single”

one of those red flags, talk about con artists who move constantly, who build complex scams on purpose, who use technology to fake phone calls and text messages, who manipulate trauma and who mingle their victims together like a deranged matchmaker and who treat you like the art in their own

twisted gallery. We'll also get into why reporting to police is basically like pitching a TV show.

Why contracts are a con artist's best friend? Why police often say there's no crime here when they're absolutely is and how to actually get law enforcement to take action. Of course, we'll show you what to do if you've been scammed already and how to keep it from happening again. All this and more, today here on the show with Jonathan Walton. Here we go. Man, you got scammed by somebody you considered family and then made it your mission

to not only get revenge, but to warn others. I love it already. Yeah, and what's funny is, everyone's celebrating me now. You know, my husband, my friends, my family, what a great job I did getting her arrested and convicted twice and writing a book and everything. But I got to remind them early on, months into it, when no one was doing anything, when police weren't doing anything, when the con woman who scammed me, managed to convince

dozens of people that I'm the crazy one and she's the victim. Everyone thought I was crazy and unhinged and obsessed. And at one point, my husband, you know, told me, you got to let this go. We have to move on, let this go. So for a while, I pretended to let it go. I did all this in secret. You know, I was like crouching the corner, going to the Starbucks down the street to research

“and investigate because everyone thought I was obsessed. And I was obsessed. And you have to be”

obsessed to catch a con artist. That's just the playing truth. It has to be an obsession or they'll win. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you say people thought you were unhinged and nuts and you had to do everything in secret because there's probably a very fine line between, okay, you need to go to a therapist and get like mental help for this, like a victim complex that you have. And you got to put this woman in jail and somebody should be supporting you. But since

no one is, you just got to vendetta and you're just doing it. Yeah, they got even crazier than that. Shortly after realizing she couldn't be out of close to $100,000. And I was devastated and cried and I got so angry. And I'm a living-let-live kind of guy. I'm a vegetarian. I catch the spider inside and take it outside and release it. Yes. I don't hurt or harm anything. But for three or four months after the fact, I started having these daydreams, these murder fantasies. One, I was throwing

her off the top of my building and watching her body splat with floor. Another, I was throwing her down 20 flights of stairs and watching her tumble to her death. And my favorite one, the one I relived the most, was strangling her and watching the life trip that horizon. These things made me happy. These things brought me joy and relief at a dark time. Right. I remember telling my

starts backing up and he's like, man, you need to see a shrink. Like, this is not okay. So I looked

“into therapy. I looked into seeing a shrink and while I was looking to find the right therapist,”

because like, this is not me. I'm not a murderer. I don't have fantasies of hurting anything. But I found out it's totally normal for victims to fantasize about harming their perpetrators. It's totally normal. And it usually subsides on its own. And it did after three or four months for me. I went away and I'm back to releasing spiders that I cash inside my house and let them outside. But for a while there, yeah, it was dark. I had no recourse other than fantasizing about killing her.

Yeah, it's funny because I was going to ask you what your favorite was, but you already said. I looked back at that man. I was and I don't recognize that. Yeah, not a killer. But listen, until you've been asked over by someone you swore loved you. And then you find that it was all a scam. For years, it was a four-year-long con. The rage you feel is just, you know, inevitable. What I liked about the book that I read was most books on scams. They don't have real-life

experience. It's like a guy, well, there's a Frank W. Abigail, who's just a con man and, you know,

“light about everything. But then there's other scam books that I like. Don't do this. Don't do that.”

Don't do this. And the perspective is kind of usually, I'm so smart. I would never get scammed.

And I'm telling you the things that I do that it keep me from getting scammed. And whenever I read something like that, I kind of put the book down after the first chapter because I know some con men and I know some anti-con men who are like magicians that expose con men. And one of the things that they always say is some variation of if you're the type of person that thinks they would never get scammed, you're exactly the kind of person that I want to meet because I'm going to scam the

shit out of you. And so anybody who writes a book that's like, I'm scam proof and you can be, too. It's kind of like, okay. So you just don't understand that you're vulnerable to this because you think you're too smart. And so your advice has an every single thing in that book that that person writes has an asterisk next to it, which is, hey, this is kind of untested and may not work. Yeah. And it's also a level of victim shaming. Right? I'm too smart for that. And I say that

“in chapter one of my book, con artists, they don't outsmart you. They're not smarter than you.”

They outfeel you. Yes. They create this emotional bond. They get a hook into your emotions and into your heart and they trick you into falling in love with them or falling in love and caring about something they created, a cause or something because once you're making decisions with your heart and not your head, you're going to get scammed. And yeah, I doubled down or what you just said,

if you think I could never get scammed, yeah, you're exactly who they're looking for. Yes, because

you don't think it can happen to you. And that's when it happens to you. Exactly. And the whole emotions versus logic thing, a lot of people who are smart, they're just like, no, I'm really smart. I look into things. And I'll hear this from other people who they'll go, oh, how did you get screwed over on such and such business deal? Didn't you have an agreement? And I'm like, I'm a lawyer. Of course, I had an agreement. What you're not understanding. It's like this

done in Kruger thing. Like what you don't understand is, oh, it's like someone will go, whoa, that'll teach you a lesson about not having a contract in place. And I'm like, dude, do you think we didn't have a contract in place? How do you sue a Dubai company with a Russian guy running it who you thought you trusted who sent you a fake bill of goods? It's fraud. It's a crime. It would trick anybody who does business as a matter of course, because it's fraud. You're not smarter than me for having

not had this opportunity to get scammed. You just don't run in circles where you would have even had this, it's like, infuriating, right? Because it's like, I wouldn't have gotten scammed. Dude, no one's calling you for this because you're literally too small with a fraud. Okay, I wouldn't don't count your winning chips just yet, pal. But it's the emotions that get involved, too. Like,

oh, I would never get scammed. I would always check on a deal. Would you, if you did it with your

cousin, what my cousin wouldn't scam me? Are you sure about that? Because that's who scams you, family members, people, your friends with. These people just, when they write stuff like this, they just don't get it. You know what I mean? I agree a thousand percent. And that's exactly what I lay out is the fact that most people are operating under this false belief. This assumption that a con artist is somewhere out there, someone you don't know, but that's not true. Everyone listening

and watching this right now, I guarantee you, you know a con artist. Right. There is a con artist in your life right now. They just haven't scammed you yet. And the people they are scamming, your friends, your family, your acquaintances, they're not talking about it. The vast majority of victims who get con, don't tell anyone. And that lets the con artist scam again and again no one's talking about it. I see this all the time. And the other thing, the emotional hook

is not to be underplayed. It's a powerful thing where human beings were creatures of emotion. My con artist told me her family had disowned her after I confessed that I'd come out as gay and my family disowned me. I hadn't been home for Christmas in almost eight years. So I was in a raw place from that. So she pounced and, well, my family disowned me. That bonded us. You know, we weren't just two

our own families didn't want us. So it's a powerful hook, the emotional bond and the fact that

you probably already know a scammer. Just like the sounds like you got scammed by someone you knew. So I haven't been scammed, but I've been screwed over on a business deal. And it's the same thing. Yeah. Because the only difference is the intent from the jump with the other party was not to screw me over. Whereas in a scam, it's the intent from the jump. But really, I was thinking about this. Towards the end, like when you're in litigation with somebody who's really vindictive and

has like all their ego wrapped into something, it's kind of the same thing. They're going to screw you. They want to torture you. They want to needle you. They get a thrill out of it. They want to keep your money because they can't afford to give you what's rightfully yours. It doesn't the sort of end result is the same. Even if the function was not originally to screw you over,

“it became so later on. So a lot of the feelings I think are probably quite similar. I think it”

hurts less to get screwed over in a business deal because everything goes awry and you realize the other person is crap and everything falls apart from there. Whereas with a scam, that person is smiling to your face the whole time. Like in a business deal, they go, all right, we're lawyeraring up screw you. I'm not paying you this and you're like, yeah, you are. And then it's like, dead it up, back and forth, back and forth. Whereas with the scam, they're like, oh my god, I'm so

sorry, you didn't get the wire. This is ridiculous. Okay, I'm going to Indonesia and when I come back, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're like, they're so nice and then meanwhile they're like, what an idiot. You know, that's worse. So getting scammed is worse because they take advantage of you and that's a plan from the jump and you just think what kind of sociopath, where is it a business deal that disintegrates? What an asshole? Yes, what a crazy psychopath that plan this from the

very beginning. Not really. You know, it's different. Yeah. And when I look back, you know, she was my best friend. She was like a sister to me for four long years. The moments where she would cry. I'd be consoling her, hugging her and her tears or wedding my shirt collar. Right. Over her family, let's try to destroy her. Like none of that was real. But she's cry like, it's a hard for me, my brain to connect the two things. It's all fake. But I felt emotion from

no that wasn't real. She's an actress. Right. She's so good at crying at the drop of a hat and and even though I'm a gay guy, a crying woman has a power over me. I was raised by a single mother

who cried a lot. I guess. I don't know. But a crying woman, a damsel in distress, is a powerful

lure that I fall for and I fell for and it just reinforced what she was saying. This was a woman being attacked and disowned by your family because they're trying to get her disinherited and the tears really sold it. My God. That's another level of psychopathy. Right. It's like these people. I look at the amount of work that these scammers in your book put into scamming other people and it's like, get a job. You'd be great at it. You'd be so good at sales. You know,

where you could make millions of dollars selling something and it wouldn't put you in federal prison, but they don't want to do that. The whole thing is I got one over on these people

“and I'm better than them. That's what's crazy. Yeah. You nailed it. I mean, they are psychopaths.”

You know, a professional con artist is a psychopath and they're not like you and me. We get a thrill from writing a roller coaster and that's fun. But for them, the fun is creating these worlds that do not exist and watching with a godlike sense of glee as we say what they want us to say, we do what they want us to do. It's like they're directing a movie. We're all their actors. But we don't know it, but they do. And that's what they get off on. That's what brings them joy. They're

not regular people. A regular person would lose sleep. Yeah. Wondering how am I going to keep all these stories straight? I told this guy this. I got this woman doing this. I'm a psychic. I'm a psychologist. No, no, I'm a witch. No, no, no. I'm a safe and worshiper. Lusha Belia. I started my own Satanic truck. She had all these characters going. How do you keep them straight? It would drive a regular person mad. It really would. But it makes a con artist happy and fulfilled. They create all this

chaos that they're just controlling around them. It's really, actually insane. You mentioned before shame, most people who get scammed are ashamed. So this helps the con artist continue to con others because someone gives them 30 grand and doesn't want to say anything and they do their

best to cover it up, which is a dream for the con artist. Like, oh, you're never going to tell

your husband. You're going to continue to stress out about this until basically he does a financial audit in 10 years and wonders where the savings from the last three years. What? I mean, you know, it's crazy. And you had to sort of get around that to send her to jail, because otherwise the

“shame allows them to cover and keep going. Absolutely. And two important points I want to make here”

is number one. It's actually one of the red flags. It's red flag number 13 TMI. They use this TMI technique, too much information where you meet a con artist for the first time. New girlfriend, new boyfriend, new friend, new neighbor in my case. And all of a sudden, they start opening up to you and revealing all these personal details in these dark secrets of their lives. And that's powerful.

me to tell me their deep dark secrets. And number two, it makes you start revealing your

deep dark secrets to them. So by the time the money changes hands could be weeks, could be months, could be years in my case. You don't want to go to police because the con artist knows all your stories, knows all your secrets. And the last thing you want to happen is to have to recite that to a police officer or God forbid, you're sitting on the stand and they're cross-examining the con artist. And is that true? Did you do that? You know, and you're on trial for your stuff. So

“that's what keeps victims quiet. But I look back at my own life. And I wonder what made”

me so different? How am I the one to write this book about these 14 red books? Nobody came up with this before me. Okay. It had to be me. But another reason I'm the perfect vessel for this. Early on, I was a TV news reporter. My first on-air job, I was 24, 25 years old, KBB TV in San Antonio. I'd never been on the air before. And I got hired as a feature reporter, right, to do like fun stories. So I spent all day writing and shooting my story and getting

it edited and I fronted it. First night on the air, never been on the air. I'm a kid. And I was a hit.

The anchors applauding and laughing at the end of my story. I walked back into the newsroom, standing ovation from producers and reporters and photographers. And the guy who hired me, Alan Little God, rest his soul and Greg Kelkin, my god. I felt like a king of the effing world. And then 60 seconds later, I go to my desk and I get my first viewer voicemail. And it's this angry Texas woman. And she's like, "You ball headed and effing, Faggot, you so effing ugly,

“you bot like she tore into me." And I laughed it off while people were watching because it was”

on speaker and everyone heard it. And I thought, oh, this is funny. But inside, I was dying. I went home that night. I fell asleep, coiled in the field position, crying. Because I'm like, I can't do this job. Like, what am I? Am I this brilliant, funny reporter that would go on to win Emmys and get applause? Or am I too ugly to be on TV like this angry woman who hate like, what am I? What am I? And I'm 24, 25 years old. And over the ensuing weeks, I learned out of sheer

necessity because I couldn't do a job like that without knowing, I can't care what anyone thinks. I can't solicit anyone's opinion about what I'm doing. Because if you ask 10 people, what do you think of this? What do you think of it? You're going to get 10 different opinions.

And I'll never get any work done. I got, I'm on a schedule. You know, turning a package

a day we call it in the news business. It's a hurty and task. It's hard. You've got to shoot, right, comfort the idea. Go shoot it. Interview people, track it, write it, edit it together. Like, and then run to get it on the news just in time, every freaking day. So I learned early on, not to care what people think, not knowing what a blessing that experience would become. Because when I got conned and I went to police and people asked me,

"What you scared to go to police, what you ashamed, what you worried what they would think?" No, it never occurred to me because at that point I had two decades of practice not caring. It literally never occurred to me and it surprised me in all these cases I investigate. It is the chief concern of every victim, like what are people going to think? Like, I really didn't care. Yeah, this is interesting. You also mentioned that reporting to the police is essentially an art.

How is reporting a scam to the police? Well, maybe it's like a TV show pitch, given your industry. Yeah, pitching a criminal case to police is like pitching a television show to a network executive. You got to make it sexy. You got to make it interesting. You got to do the work and tell the story for them. Most victims think you can go to police and you say you were scammed and the emotion you're crying. They don't care. They'll turn you away

and they turn a lot of victims away. They turn the majority of victims of scams away. They tell them, quote, "It's not a crime. Go hire a lawyer and sue this person. It's not a crime." Especially if there's any kind of forged paperwork involved, that turns cops off right away. Because it tells them civil, not criminal. Which is not correct because authority is a crime and fraud is a crime. Exactly. But the way the hierarchy is, you're pitching this cop on the front lines.

Right? And it's he's the judge and executioner. He's going to decide if a crime happened. And if he doesn't think a crime happened, he's not going to take a report. Simple as that. And you think a guy in a badge, I remember when the cop turned me away. He's like, it's not a crime. I'm like, okay, he must know what he's talking about. He's got a badge, but he was wrong. And I pushed back and I found dozens of other victims and I built a strong criminal case in my own

that they could not ignore. And I presented to them on a silver platter. I made it sexy and exciting.

“Yeah. And that's what you have to do. You can't just go to police Willie Nilly.”

You've got to pick a time. I recommend Sunday and a 5 a.m. when no one's there. You have an audience with a cop. And you've got to van a white present your evidence. And you've got to write up an after David. You've got to get witness statements. And I show people how to do this in the last chapter of my book because I realize and so many victims who call me for help and I end up investigating their cases. Most of them, the cops already turned them away.

looks for ways to make their job easier. Like for journalists, if you basically write the whole article for them, they'll sort of re-write the thing and go, yeah, all right, I'll cover you. I mean, I've had cops tell me that package theft off my porch wasn't really a crime. And I'm like, I got to draw the line here, pal. How long have you been doing this job? Just write the report. And he was like, you can file one online, but I'm not going to take one. And I was like,

you, sir, are useless. But I also kind of get it. Like, it's the 8,000th package theft of the week in San Jose, California. You don't want to fill it out. You're not going to go after them. I have nothing to give you, other than G, someone took something off my porch. Maybe I think,

kind of, so who cares? And the answer is my insurance company and Amazon at that time cared because

it was an expensive item. And so I need this report because I'm not paying for this. And Amazon needs this for their insurance. So you are going to sign this effing report or I'm not letting you

“out of my house. You know, it was that kind of thing. But it was, that's how ridiculous it is, right?”

They'll say, well, this isn't really a crime. And it's like, this is the definition of theft. Okay. This is the easiest crime. But when something gets complex, a lot of times cops are either too new and not trained at this or they go, man, it's early. My coffee hasn't kicked in yet. I can't really wrap my head around why this is a crime. So it's civil. I mean, say, this is another real example, friend of mine had a bunch of cryptocurrency stolen from him. And they were like, well, it's out of

our jurisdiction. And I was like, no, dude, the cryptocurrency, yes, it's on the blockchain, which exists, sort of wherever. But it's in every jurisdiction because it's on the freaking blockchain. And it was your cryptocurrency that you have technically custody of in your home. And the cop was just like, but it's on the internet. And I was like, just get out your little pad and let somebody let somebody with more than three brain cells decide if this is a crime. How's that? Because they just

couldn't wrap their mind around it. Because the cop's defense, he, that she's probably never

heard a bit coin at the time. So he thought it was data theft, which also they said was not a crime, which is also wrong. It's just, they don't get this stuff. They get someone smash window someone

“came in, grab TV and leave. That's what they understand. I kind of get it. I understand why that's”

the limit. The FBI usually handles the other stuff. They're marginally better and understanding when a crime has occurred. But again, I'm not trying to crap on these guys. They're kind of the backbone of safety in our society in many ways. But everybody wants their job to be as easy as possible. And sometimes this is just not the way to do it, right, reporting something. Right, and that's definitely a factor. But the other factor that I think is more the majority of cases that people don't consider.

You know, when you're the victim, you kind of have tunnel vision. And you think everyone's against you. But you know, I've since made friends with a lot of detectives and investigators and FBI agents and prosecutors. I've been fortunate. I've done six seasons of that podcast, Queen of the Con, I've interviewed a bunch of them. So I kind of know how the system works now. And it's not that they don't want to do the work. It's that especially in major metropolitan areas, like Los Angeles,

New York, or even San Jose, or, you know, big cities. There is so much bloodshed. There are people who got beat up and raped and shot those take precedents. Those get everyone's attention and they're overwhelmed. Yeah. These cops are overwhelmed. So it's almost like being in a triage unit on the front lines of World War II. It's like, you've got a guy coming with a little sore and a cut. And you've got a guy missing an arm and his eyes blown out. You know, send a cut away. Let's deal

with the missing arm guy. So it's like that. Like, you know, your scam pals and comparison to what they're dealing with. So and nobody tells victims this. But I say it again and again in the book, the onus is on you, the victim to make your case. What really opened things up for me aside from just being a lawyer and seeing some of the inside of this was I just couldn't help but notice that when I was

in New York City, if a crime occurred and I reported it or somebody else reported it, it was always

always, always quote unquote, a civil matter or not a big enough deal for the cops. If the cop was related to the victim, they had an APB out on the person that took the cell phone from the taxi cab in Lower Manhattan on a Friday night. And I was like, aha, they can do things if the incentives are there. If I'm able is going to find out that her, you know, nephew cop didn't do shit when hers, you know, funds, phone is stolen. That's going to be annoying for him and he's going to

figure out how to remedy that situation. If there's no consequence other than a nut yet another citizen is sort of mildly disgruntled with the police, they're not going to give a shit. That's just the fact of the matter. And you're right, there's somebody else who's got a sexual assault

“sitting there trying to file a report with shaking and they're obviously going to be more important”

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your network for free over at 6min at networking.com. Now, I teach this stuff to three letter agencies and law enforcement and it has been brought to my attention that con artists are almost certainly also using these techniques. So what better reason do you need than to learn them for yourself so you can see if they're being applied to you in a way that's white hat or black hat?

“The best way to avoid being manipulated is to know how these things work. This course is designed”

for you to be able to apply this in a non-manipulative, white hat way. 6min today is all it takes and many of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart honest company where you belong. You can find the course again all free and free of shenanigans at 6min at networking.com. Now, back to Jonathan Walton. Your book is helpful. It goes through all these red flags. Red flag number one,

I'm here to help. Essentially, somebody who's overly helpful is that fair. I would love to go through what the red flag is and then maybe like a brief story of this inaction so that people can really internalize the concept. Absolutely. And the case I write about in the book is the Eric Kramer case for this red flag. Most con artists 90% of the time in the cases I've investigated and we're talking hundreds of cases over the past eight years. The con artist enters the victim's

life offering to help because who doesn't love a helper? My con artist offered to help me and retired in a folk quarterback Eric Kramer, his con artist offered to help him. He had battle depression on an offer 20 years. Probably CTE, but we won't know for sure until, you know, he's that there's an autopsy after he dies. So his son died of a drug overdose and his mother died and his father was diagnosed with cancer and he was in a really dark place. So he checks himself into a motel room,

puts a gun to his head, pulls the trigger, but he lives. But he's got the brain capacity of a six-year old for a couple years and during his recovery, a con artist swoops in, an ex girlfriend who immediately

“sensed upon checking on him that he doesn't remember what happened in their relationship and”

she wants back in. So she gets in his life, convinces his friends and family that she just wants to help. She wants to help him recover. Before he long, she moves into his house, they start to get suspicious. They notice Amazon packages, piling up on the doorstep, they're from her. She quits her job. She starts taking hundreds of dollars a day off of this credit card in cash defenses and buying Visa gift cards at Walgreens. Like, that is the currency of scammers, right, gift cards.

So it really is like the fact that those exist, I would love to see from these companies what percentage of these are legit business. Like, oh, we sold $10 million in iTunes gift cards. Okay,

but what percentage of that was redeemed for songs in Apple music and the answer is going to be like

0.1 percent. The rest of it's going to be scammers abroad. Scammers. Yeah. Visa species of gift cards. Yeah. So once she figures out they're on to her and they've gone to

Now, he's got the brain capacity of a child. So he just says yes to whatever. So secret ceremony,

“no friends and family, she marries him and continues scamming him. By the time he comes to, he regains”

his mental capacity, you know, all of a sudden three years into it, three years into his healing. And he realizes she scamming him and he tells you to get out of his house. She calls the cops and runs another scam that he beat her. So the cops show up and because of OJ Simpson, they arrest Eric Kramer immediately. Right. Headlines across the country, retired in a film quarterback, Eric Kramer, you know, in jail for battery and I fear for my life

they're quoting her court records that she fears for her life. It was all another scam. So right, long story short, that woman eventually pled guilty. She was charged a rested pled guilty. But she cost Eric more than $700,000. Oh, wow. She would have gotten more if not

for the people in Eric's life and stepped up and stepped in and helped him. But it all started,

she offered to help. And who doesn't love a helper? So that is red flag number one, con artist, unlike regular people. When there's a disaster going down, that's when they come out. When everyone's running away from something, a professional con artist is heading towards it. Because they know there is money to be made in offering to help. You don't actually have to help. People are just blinded and distracted by the shine of the offer. It reminds me of whenever

there's a hurricane and Haiti and then stuff like that, you get those texts that are like donate to the red cross. We urgently need blood. But we're, you know, your $20 will do also. And then you're like, why is the URL for the donation to the red cross? C, C, Y, X, A, B, C, W dot X, Y, Z slash donate. That is not an official red cross. You are, and then you're like, oh my god, millions of people got this text. This text is praying on millions of people who saw a news report about a

tsunami. And these people are just stealing this money. Like I'm always so curious. I'm like,

I want to be a fly on the wall in this guy's house and just be like, what is your life like, where you are this shitty of a human being? I don't think it's that. I don't think it's that they

“think their shitty or something bad happened. I think con artists, psychopaths are different people.”

They enjoy the scam. They don't think of it as evil at all. They get a sense of a thrill. A god-like sense of, I created this from nothing and look, I'm getting money now. Yeah. I'm the shit. You and I keep describing regular morals and values and feelings to these people. But I don't even think they're people. Yeah. I agree with you. I think they're caricatures of human beings. This is one reason why I'm like, I guess you'd call it a strong sense of justice.

When I find somebody who is a scammer or something like that, I will dox them. You know what that is? Yeah. I will go the extra mile and I've had FBI agents in my house that are like, why do you want to take this person down so bad? And I'm like, they're like, do you know them? Do they scam someone you know? And I'm like, no. And they're like, but why? And I'm like, you guys can relate to this. You're FBI agents. I want to see them just crying behind bars and being

like, why me and being like, because you're a piece of shit. Have fun. You're here for 10 years. Saddle up. You buck up, buttercup. So you're going to be here for a minute. I just I that feeling, I will float out of that prison. Just on a cloud of air. I mean, it's a public service. Yeah. Because you're putting them out of commission and you're saving untold numbers of people from getting scams. So you're doing God's work. God knows. Absolutely. Yeah. It's drilling

plus also when you can commit a borderline criminal hacker type act against a scam center in Dubai. I'm kind of like, this is a victimless crime. Yes, I'm stealing all of your records. This is a hypothetical people. Yes, I'm stealing all of your personnel records and handing them over to the FBI. But you know what? Screw you. You're a scam center. I don't really care if it results in a bunch of you getting beaten to death by your Chinese triad bosses. Your scammers. Who cares? It's

your problem. You signed up for this. I don't give a crap. You're going to end up at a Dubai prison getting tortured by the guards. Oh, well, guess you're a bad hand this time. Should have thought of that. I don't really care. I love it. That's great. Red flag number two kind to quick.

“Tell me about Mayor, because this was kind of her initial entree into your life. Was it not?”

Absolutely. Yeah. She was a new neighbor. My con artist was a new neighbor. Someone I knew and met and liked immediately because she stepped out of the fray and offered to help. Our building lost our pool. We had this gigantic tropical paradise kind of pool in the middle of downtown LA shared by three different buildings and our building didn't want to pay for repairs. So they took it to court and they blocked us out and we were mad and I put up flyers everywhere.

Let's get the pullback. I galvanized our building and got hundreds of people on board in this effort to get the pullback and as I say that to you now, I realize me putting up that flyer all over and me stuffing that flyer under everyone's door in our building, including the woman who would go on to scam me. I was inadvertently revealing all I needed to about myself to give her the idea of the perfect con just for me. She must have been salivating, licking her lips,

him do good for me because that's exactly what she went on to do. So she took over the meeting.

“She offered to help. She said her boyfriend. This is married politician who sued our building”

and can get the pool back in blah blah blah. And we all believed it. She was dating a married politician but he had no idea about the pool situation nor was he helping. But again, the help doesn't have to be real to get in. Because by then she was in, we loved her and then red flag number two came out two kind two quick. She took my husband and me for dinner, paid the $700 bill. She was winding and dining as frequently. She bought his gifts. She got my sister, these 20 designer dresses,

that she said her client was a costume designer and Hollywood. It's going to throw them away to brand new like Christian Dior like big-time designers. And my sister trying them on crying. She's crying. She's so happy. Con artists are too kind to quick. They're going to buy you dinner. They're going to walk your dog. They're going to watch your kids. Mayor took us on vacations to Palm Springs and paid for everything. Like it was an investment for her though. She was investing and it worked.

Like someone takes you in a vacation. How do you not love them? Two gigas from LA going to Palm Springs.

“That name a more iconic trio, I guess. Yeah, that's she got your no pal. Oh yeah, oh for sure.”

Yeah, no. We walked, listen, looking back. She was just laying out the bread crumbs and I was just eating them up on knowing. But I hope your sister kept the dresses after all this. Oh yeah, she did. Yeah, at least she got something out of the deal. So I just, I find some of the details about this person this mayor are comical, right? I mean, they're at your expense. So I'm sorry to say that, but some of them are okay. They are absolutely like she comes back and she's got all these

bandages on her legs and you're like, oh my god, what happened? Well, I have lupus and you find out she just had liposuction and it's like, oh for God's sake. But listen, lupus, someone tells you they have lupus number one, do you question them? Of course not. No, and then the other, she, a lot of these medical scams, she was great at. I come to find out she convinced our landlord that she had cancer and was getting chemo and our landlord let her skate rent free for six months. Whoa. Like,

when someone tells you they have cancer, you just believe them. Yeah, the reason the landlord believed her, she had evidence, right? So come to find out, my con artist, mayor, was 300 pounds years ago. And she got gastric bypass surgery and got thin. And part of getting gastric bypass surgery is malnutrition, right? So she would frequently get low blood iron. She would intentionally let her iron get so low that she'd have to be admitted into a hospital for an iron transfusion,

which is not a major thing. They put you in a hospital bed. They hook you up to an IV. You get the transfusion you go home. But it was when she was getting these transfusions that she would create because she could keep her iron up if she wanted to, but she wanted that hospital because she would have the nurse take a picture of her in a hospital bed hooked up to tubes and wires. And then she texted that picture to the landlord. I'm sorry. I can't pay rent. I'm in the hospital

getting chemo. It's so evil, but so geniusly effective. It's nuts. And when people think I would never

get scammed. It's like, okay, think about situations like this. I just did a show the other day that was about cybersecurity. And this is very apt because the guy said whenever I consult for companies or government agencies, they always say we want 100% security. And the problem with having 100% security, you then have zero percent functionality. Basically, like you want to secure phones, smash it and burn the pieces. This actually makes sense here because people go, I would never get scammed.

Okay, then just don't have any relationships. Don't have any friends never do any business and don't communicate with anyone. Okay, your scam prove kind of I suppose now. How's your quality of life? Do you have good relationship? I'll wait. No, you don't have any friends. You don't have any family that you talk to. You don't have any business relationships. Okay. So your scam prove kind of

“maybe this is another, I think I'd ask this years ago on this very show. Why are psychopaths still”

in society? Why haven't they sort of been bred out over the past hundreds of thousands of years?

The answer is because some psychopaths are a function right. They're surgeons, they're CEOs,

they're leaders, whatever it is. We need them. The other thing is though society doesn't adapt to them because they're one, a small portion of society. But two, in order to adapt to defend everyone against psychopathic behavior, we would have to shut down the level of trust in society that allows things to function. When I go to a restaurant, they don't go, well, you better pay first in cash pal because we don't know if you're good for it. And you're like, okay, so you're carrying

around a water cash to have your dinner and to let no. You order the food. They bring you everything. You lay the card in there and they just assume that you're not going to call the bank and say it was fraud and yada yada and that works. 99.99% of the time. Society would grind to a halt without trust. Right. Nothing would get done. You wouldn't answer your door or your phone or anything. So like we have to go, oh, she's in the hospital getting chemo. That's probably true because

who in their right mind would lie about this? That is a normal human reaction. I know there's

people going, I would never let her do this and yada. Yes, you would or you're kind of an asshole

lupus and then shows you a photo of them in the hospital getting a blood transfusion, right? Like it's just it would be very weird to not believe that story. A great and konartists know

“this better than most and that's why they engineer these situations and these photographs”

and these lies to text and email you and convince you of anything. Because the idea that it's all chess moves to gain trust and later abuse it, that's crazy work to even think like that. And in very, very, very, very rare cases, that is what's happening. So you've got to look out for a I assume a combination of these red flags or red flag number one. Absolutely. I'm here to say this in the book, you know, on their own, each of the red flags is not a warning that

they're you're being conned or you're in the presence of a professional scammer, but as they start to compound, if you see three or four or more, you are being scammed. Right. Someone's waving four of these 14 red flags, guaranteed they're going to be waving some others really soon. And this is a game I play with myself all the time now. Because I say, if I met my con artist Mayor Smith today, knowing what I know now about how con artist operate, having written this book

anatomy of a con artist, the 14 red flags, the spot scammers, Griffiths and thieves, would I know

she's a con artist? And the answer is, absolutely. Looking back, she was waving all the flags

almost immediately out of the gate. She was waving all of them very quickly. So it's obvious now, but until somebody catalogues and makes notes and points them out, what they are, you don't know, you just think, oh, what a kind sweet person with a lot of drama who has this great job and she's always showing me her phone and you know, this is an element of scarcity and big wedding. She's got a great day job, but she needs a wire and she's had 46 different addresses.

You'll tell someone connects a dots for you. It's like, I liken it to this, time-squared New York city, right? Thousands of people are just rushing by you. You don't notice anyone, but if I say, look for the guy with the brown bowler hat, all of a sudden, you can spot that guy hundreds of feet away from it at you. Like, if I point out what to look for, it's not just a sea of humanity flowing over you, you see that effing bowler hat and you know to be in the lookout

for it. So these red flags are similar. I point them out. This is what it looks like. How did she

“come into my life? Oh, that's right. She wanted to help me. That's how they all get it. They want”

to help you. Now that's you kind too quick and red flag number three, drama drama drama drama. Yeah. Once you love a con artist, God forbid, once you like or love a con artist, once they're in your life, the drama starts. They create drama. They create emergency situations to throw you off. And then whatever thing you've told him about your life, they will invent stories around that to freak you out. You'll say, my boyfriend stalking me, I'm worried blah blah, they'll say, well,

I saw him at your house last night. So now you're freaking out. You're being stalked, but none of that's true. This reminds me of when I lived in Ukraine, this is like 25 years ago. They were cyber cafes then, so you could see what other people were doing on the internet. And I spent a lot of time in there because I was like, you know, bored and homesick. And I remember there was a guy sitting with like three or four, just very bored women,

very bored. They would change smoke and learn about whatever. And I finally was like,

I'm going to look at what this guy's doing. Because what does this guy do with these women who are bored being here? He's not playing a game. He's emailing people and he's talking in Russian. And I would look at the screen and I'd see like a British guy's like, hello, love. I'm just looking for my soulmate and your pictures were amazing. And he's reading the email to her and translating into directions. So she can like remember the details of the story line with each of

the guys because she might eventually have to do a call with him or something and recount some of this. And then he would reply like, oh, what's really sadly is that my mother is very sick. And she needs medicine. And it like the dumbest, but the drama, right? And then I was like, I bet the next email is this guy offering to send her 300 bucks for the medicine that her for

gramma needs or her mom needs or whatever it is. And it was always that because I remember,

“so one time I followed them, which is totally not a thing you should do to cameras, but I did,”

because I was 20 and I gave a shit. And I followed them and they went to essentially a western union office. And I was like, aha, they're getting money wired to them from the people that they're emailing. When I came home from Ukraine, my friends wrote the airport and I thought, oh, they're here for me. And I said, what are you guys doing here? And they said, my uncle is meeting a woman that he's been dating from Ukraine. And I said, I'm the last person off the plane because I got

detained by customs and I had to fill out a police report because I got robbed by customs and Ukraine typical at that time. Wow. There's no one else. And they're like, yes, so are you sure she didn't get detained? And I was like, I mean, I can't be sure she didn't get detained, but I am definitely the last one off this flight. Like I in the last one, last one, last one who came out of that immigration office in customs because I was there for an extra 45 minutes or hour, whatever it was. And they were

like, oh, and they stayed there for a while. And I called the next day, I was like, what happened? Did she ever show up? No. And then weeks later, yes, she said she got robbed on the way to the airport and her ticket got stolen and she got beat up. And she needs money for the hospital and then

you about the guys at the cyber cafe. Yeah. And basically he said, I can't afford to send you any more money and she dropped in like a hot stone, right? Because he was he was juiced out. I said, test to this woman. If he says, I can't help you with any money right away, watch her evaporate. And that's exactly what happened. He was heartbroken, obviously. But yeah, because I would tell

that, boy, he loved her. Yeah. And this is what I say again and again, love is the most powerful

force there is in the universe. You know, people will kill for love. People will die for love.

“And if a con artist can get you to love them, that's what they're trying to do. You're sunk.”

You'll do anything. Because you love them. Yeah. You're the love blinds you. It was said, is looking at a guy holding a sign that says, welcome to America. And, you know, and she's just like a bullshitter who lives in Odessa, Ukraine. I was just really sad. Yeah. And again, con artists don't, they don't outsmart you. They outfill you, right? Love is a feeling. Yeah. Fear is a feeling sympathy is a feeling. They use your feelings. They get in there

and play you like a harp. They play your feeling. So sympathy, she said her mother was sick and needed, you know, like, how could you not believe someone with this story of what would happen? Anyone not want to help. Of course you want to help. This is someone you care about. And Mara was doing this to you too, right? Oh, my family tried it. They told me that what was this story? They told her Tylenol was candy when she was little and she ate the whole

bottle or something. Oh, yeah. So she almost died. She said when she was a little girl and Irish estate and her cousins would mess with her. The same cousins who had disowned her now over this

“inheritance money. Back when they were kids, they terrorized her and they tricked her into believing”

a bottle of Tylenol was candy and she ate the whole bottle and she said she died for minutes. And they brought her back to life and she said she remembers talking to an angel and saying that her father's praying really hard for really they snow you with details, right? And this is a red flag further down in the list. But equally as important, a professional con artist will snow you with stories from far away places. Why far away places? Why Ireland? Why Australia? Why 20

years ago in Paris? Because stories from our way places, they're hard to confirm. And human nature being what it is. And these people being experts at engineering, human nature. If we can't prove something's false, we just accept that it's true. Help keep me off the streets and out of your bank accounts by supporting the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored and part by Drip Drop. Staying hydrated is one of those things

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with an example of this because I don't think I can. They're really good at telling you something

“where you know the basic facts of that premise, whatever, are true. And then your mind kind of”

fills in the blanks in a way the con artist wants you to fill in those blanks. And you think that part is true too. Oh, I have examples. Absolutely. So, and this is a very common

powerful tool con artist use, right? Every con has a kernel of truth to it. My con artist said she

was from Ireland. That was a lie. But she did live in northern Ireland for nine years. You know, she'd moved there as in early 20s for nine years, married a local and scammed up a storm and disappeared under the cover of night. So, but kernel of truth was she'd lived there. So, she knew the culture. She knew the word. She knew how to build a fake story on that tiny kernel of truth. And in my experience investigating all these other victims, she's my con artist scammed.

She did stuff like that again and again where there's a little crossover. When she met me, I must have confessed early on that I didn't know much about Ireland and she lit up. Ah, I got alive one. He knows Ireland is a country and that's it. Yeah. So, she could use my familiarity or my vague familiarity of Ireland and start piling on all these other details that I just accepted as anyone would. She had, uh, she had a framed Irish constitution hanging on her wall,

big parchment paper. It looked legit like an museum. And she point to the bottom and say, "That's my great great grandfather, a signatory, the founder of Ireland." And I'm like, "Oh my God, you're like the founder of Ireland, the lineage is right here standing in front of me in Los Angeles. How crazy." And she told that story with variations to a lot of other people. Sometimes it was a great, great uncle to other. But based on my limited knowledge of Ireland,

I just accepted all this other crazy ship. She would tell me like when she was a little girl, her grand. My grand, she'd say, in a weird, lilt. Grand would take her to the top of bridges

“and teach her how to hurl Molotov cocktails down on British soldiers. Okay, right?”

Very dramatic, very detailed stories in faraway places. But they all rang true to me because I knew the ground floor fact she was from Ireland. Okay, so then I just accepted and believed everything else she said with an Irish base. But none of it was real. The only real thing about her whole Irish story was she married an Irish guy and lived there for nine years and scammed a bunch of people. Another thing they do that I think is interesting is that it's almost counterintuitive.

They mingle the victims. Like you would think that a con artist wants to keep victims separate from one another, not the other way around. But they introduce people to one another and I think one they probably get a thrill out of that. Like who all these people are just one second away from being able to compare notes. But they're not going to do it because I'm controlling the whole play. But it works in their favor because then you're like, oh, we met the lawyer that's helping

us with the pool thing and he's like, oh, I met the TV producer who's helping her with her TV show.

But it's like you're not doing that and he's not doing that. But you never say that because

why would you do that in front of her? Like it's this a whole thing. It's a whole very odd

“thing. And I think they again, I'm curious what you think about that. Why they do that?”

I got chills hearing you talk. I got a same man. I've done hundreds of interviews plugged into hell out of this book, but you are hands down the only one who truly understands what I'm talking about. Really? Yes. Yes. You're absolutely right. Mind did that. They all do that because the two reasons you mentioned. My con artist would have these cocktail parties and invite multiple victims she's scamming with different stories. Yeah. Looking back, I realized at any moment,

one of us could have said, hey, right. She tell you about this 25 million inheritance with the Irish

family and hey, the she took, but we never did because we only ever made polite conversation. We

just met and we're mingling and we're drinking. We're not going to like compare notes. But she was at the ready. This is what thrills them. They're not regular people. Could she diffuse the situation quick enough if someone said something? How would she misdirect or redirect or cover that story to explain it? So it's too fold. They do it too. Oh, and I didn't know she was doing this. So at the time I met her, I was producing season four of the hit show Shark Tank for ABC. I was a producer

on that show. That's true. So when she would introduce me and bring up Shark Tank, I just thought, oh, I'm just talking about what I do. People find it interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. It's a great show. I loved working on it. It was a blast. But really, she was trying to scam people by telling them she can get them on Shark Tank. And now she's introducing them to Jonathan Walton, one of the producers. So I was confirming her con. Right. I was giving her con evidence that it wasn't a con,

but it was a con. Right. And no one's going to go, oh, good. Can you get me on Shark Tank?

anything. Yeah. Then you're going to be on right. So it's just a little bit of a, all right. They're

going to say that they would never say that. And if the person said, oh, you're going to get me on Shark Tank.

Mercer that she's going to go, I did not, and also, oh, you're blowing it. And they're going to be like, oh, sorry. And you're just going to laugh it off because I would laugh it off because yeah, everyone in their mother wants to be on Shark Tank. It's funny. Shark Tank was crucial in my life in getting that cop to take the police report. Because when I went to him, he turned me away. He said, it's not a crime. I start walking out of the door. I put my hands on the glass door to leave

and something screams in my head. No, this cannot be right. I turn back around. I have a statue with all my evidence that I printed out. I got emails and phone records and text messages

“and bank records and credit card statements. And I start telling him, how is this not a crime?”

You say, I gave her the money. So it's a crime. It's not a crime. But every victim gives the perp the money. Even at a stick up at a 7 to 11 with a gun, you give the money house. This is a crime. And all of a sudden, this cop was impressed by my, my force and my organization, all the evidence I piled in front of him and he said, what do you do for a living? And I said, I'm a TV producer. And he's like, are there any shows that you worked on that I would have heard of? And I'm like,

Shark Tank and his eyes light up, right? He's like, I've been trying to pitch something to the sharks for years. And I'm like, listen, I'll help you with you help me. And he agreed, you know, but Shark Tank to my defense multiple times. But yeah, it was a thing she was using. I found this out years, literally years later. She was using the try to scam people by claiming she could get them a Shark Tank. And then introducing me a Shark Tank producer to people. It sounds like the

antidote to this. If there is one is check everything. Even if you think it'll make you look rude or paranoid. And you mentioned this in the book. You say it's especially important to call people they tell you to stay away from. And this is the red flag of isolation. And it's the biggest red flag there is, right? If someone tells you don't talk to so and so, be suspicious. And if someone starts turning you against so and so, be suspicious. It is so remarkably easy to do to turn people

against each other. And this makes con artist happy. And it's just tragic and sad. One of the cases I've investigated for a couple of years is the case of Cal Porter and the con artist her name is Bina Fink and South Florida. Carol's husband died. She was a widow. Kind of a kept woman or whole life or husband did everything for her. And Bina, classic con artist style, enters her life

“offering to help. It becomes her best friend. Her husband left her a million dollars, right?”

And she starts whispering in Carol's ear. Listen, this guy, this family member, this sister, this brother, these people who've loved you your whole life. They're trying to take your money. So Carol cut off communication with everyone because she thought everyone was coming out to get her money. When really, that was the con artist isolating Carol from everyone who would have talked her out of going along with a con. My con artist did that to me. I had a neighbor in my

building who also got scammed. And early on, my con artist told me and I foolishly believed, but how I didn't know any better. No one knows any better until you do. She told me this neighbor was on the run from authorities and Canada wanted from murder. Very specific. These lies that con artist tell are very detailed and very specific. The neighbor's name was Sherry. I started avoiding Sherry like the plague. I would see Sherry in the parking garage. I'd run the other way.

I'd dodge and I don't want to have any interaction with her. Come to find out. She was scamming Sherry too. And she told Sherry, fake stories about me that I was mentally deranged and violent. And I beat people up and I've destroyed her apartment. The mayor's apartment. I broke things. And so Sherry unbeknownst to me, she sees me the parking lot. And she's running the other way.

And then we're never talking. So mayor is scamming both of us with different stories. And we

were none the wiser. And even after, God, it took so long for me to convince Sherry that I'm the good guy. She blocked me on social media. She blocked my number. I had to create a Google account and email her in color. I'd have other victims center court records and criminal records of mayor. Finally,

“she came around. But it took a while. That's how powerful this isolation technique is. It's”

easy to get people not to talk to each other. Yeah. That's crazy. And mayor has some pretty impressive woppers that she's told and got away with. So she embezzled money from somebody. She ended up going to jail. And what did she say? Like, oh, I'm, I'm going to go through a period of deep morning. And my phone's going to be off. And I'll be in Ireland for the month or like a monastery. And it was so ridiculous. But it's like, OK, sure. Yeah. It was the guy she was scamming

Bob. He was an engineer in Newport Beach. He was going to add her name to the titles of his two homes.

Because she was going to buy him this $13 million mansion with her $25 million inheritance. And he

got a realtor. She got a home inspection. She put an offer in on the home. That's how far she got. And she disappears for 30 days. And she tells Bob that, yeah, her uncle who's a in the Catholic church in Rome died. And the Pope's going to do a funeral. And she's going to take a vow with

silent to it in the Vatican in Rome. And I mean, he bought it. Yeah. Because by then, he thought

“she's Irish royalty. She's got billions in in Ireland. And now her uncle is high placed in the Vatican.”

And the details are stunning. But it was all, it was all BS. Some of this is just extra levels of gymnastics. So she uses voice changers. There's fake emails and fake texts that she'll show people. It's just a ton of work, man. It is. Like imagine you're like, oh, I'm getting a call from somebody. And then on the other end is like a recording of you with voice changer. I mean, it's just, I just can't, it's exhausting even thinking about lying this much. I just can't relate. I know,

but they get off on it. And that's a major red flag. We all need to be suspicious and on the lookout for red flag number six technology. Conartists use digital screens to sell you their story. So

Mayor was always showing me, hey, look what my barristers. I didn't even know the barrister was

I to Google it. It's what they call lawyers over there. It's like a layer that goes to court instead of just doing transactional work. Yeah. Right. Look what my barrister texted me. Look what my barrister email me. Look what my cousin Finton and Tristan. And during that, look what they text,

“look what their email. So she's building up these characters. And I believe they are real. But”

they're not. She creates Google accounts in their names text herself as these people and shows people. Look, look, look, look, one of the cases that broke my heart that I investigated right about in the book, dealing with technology. Listen to this, Shia. So this woman, an airline executive, super smart wealthy woman meets this guy and bumble. He's an oil and gas man. And he's always on the go building an oil rig here, repairing an oil thing here in Russia, in the Indian Ocean. He's like

an international man. And she's video chatting with him a few times. And she's fallen in love with him. It's been four months. They're going to meet every time that then he has an emergency. He meets with Obama. You know, he sends pictures of him in Obama come to find out the con man found a guy who looked a little like him and stole pictures and used those pictures. And it was a guy who met Obama. But well, now you can do it with AI. But there's just 10 years ago. So finally, he calls her talk

“about technology. He says, listen, I'm on an oil rig in the Indian Ocean. I need to log into my bank”

to pay this thing. It's like a five million dollar drill bit I need. But the internet is so bad here.

Can you log into my bank account and make this payment for me? She's like, of course. But what is that? Have you ever given anyone your bank login credentials? Right. Like, oh, I really trust you. I'm giving you this exactly. So unbeknownst to this victim. And this is how sophisticated the con can be. He had created a fake bank website that she logged into. And she saw he had like a hundred million dollars in the bank and she made the payment of five million, whatever. And she

did it. So that did two things for the con. Number one, it made her think, wow, this man loves me. Who's giving me their bank login details? This man was really trust me. And number two, he's loaded. I saw you out of 100. But all that was fake technology is easy to fake. You can create a fake bank account. You can create a fake bank statement in a Photoshop or whatever. So

if someone's always using a digital screen to sell you their story, be suspicious.

This reminds me of, I have a friend of a friend of a friend. That's as close as I'm going to say. And he, he's single. He's kind of a player. I don't always approve of his methods. This is one of those methods. It's just, but it is kind of comical. So I have someone over and he'll say, oh, I didn't think you were coming over until eight. And she's like, oh, you said 730. He's like, my bad. Let me just finish this and I'll go take a shower and he'll leave his like laptop open on the kitchen island.

And he's got like a fake crypto account that has like $480 million in Bitcoin in it. And he's like, I'm just going to jump with the shower. I'm so sorry. I know it's up with the shower. And he knows it like eventually. She's going to walk by the thing while she's getting a drink, even if she's not snooping. And she's going to be like holy shit. Right. And then he'll just close it casually when he gets back out and just like, inhale, go, you know what? You can tell who's seen it because the ones who haven't

seen it, they're added to doesn't change at all. Everything's fine because he's picking up girls with like clubs in LA or something, right? So these are, you know, it's casual. And then he's like, the ones that have they're just so nice after that. And like you, you guys deserve each other. But it was just kind of a funny method, right? It makes sense. Oh, look how much I trust you. I'm going to give you this bank login. And then when he asks her to do something with her own

money, it's like, well, look, this must be legit. He'd let me log into his bank and wire five million dollars. Why would he then, you know, not use his own money? Oh, the bank is down or this, then, you know, this, that and the other thing. Now I'm a drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama drama yeah, it's great. This is just crazy. Khan artists put a lot of time into wanting to see him better than you. You note this in the book. So they're either involved in philanthropy, their filthy

stink and rich, their religious and pious like mayor was with her whole Vatican vow of silence thing.

It's so calculated that it makes you think holy crap. How can anybody really be scamproof? It's very difficult. I would agree. And, you know, as much as I know about scams and the red flags,

“I still, I lose sleep at night worrying when will the next con artist emerge in my life?”

And how soon can I spot them? Because I don't think I'm immune. They're everywhere. If they find a good lure, something I want, the minute anyone makes me an offer or an opportunity, I'm suspicious. And I can't not be. But yeah, the I'm better than you red flag. Your listeners probably already know but in case some of them don't, con artist is short for confidence artists. Because they're brilliant at engineering your confidence. They need your confidence. They need you to think highly of them. And they go about

that in two ways. They'll brag about themselves. And it's so obvious now. But at the time you don't know, I'm the best at this. I'm the best at that. I got voted the best at this. My con artist told me that she works for this luxury travel agency. She sells the most Pacific Islands vacations

in the world. And the prime minister of French Polynesia flies her out first class every month

to inspect all the hotels. And it made me think, wow, like, I'm lucky to know her. They want you to feel privileged to know them. So they'll be the best at this, the best at that. They'll paint a picture. They donate to charity. They do there's such great people. How fortunate you are to have them in your life. Right. Yeah. That's the feeling they will weaponize later. But that's the feeling they need to implant to inspect into your brain. They want you to think highly of them.

That makes sense. Crypto scams do this. A lot of crypto scams do this, right? They'll ask you for an investment. You'll sort of hesitantly put in a couple hundred bucks. They'll show you, look, your investment tripled overnight. Isn't that crazy? And you're like, shoot, I should put in more money. And then if you try and withdraw then they will often let you do it. Like,

“you're can take your 200 bucks out now. But you should put it back in and let it roll. And you're like,”

you know what, I'll put a couple of grind in there and see what happens. And then it rolls over and triples and it quadruples and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when you're like, I want to take out my $300,000, then suddenly the system is down. Or you need to pay a transaction fee using a different currency and yaddi, yaddi, yaddi, yaddi, yaddi, yaddi. But wait, I got my money out before. So this part is not a scam. And then it's like, well, wait a minute. Actually it is. Yeah, listen, bequetting. They let

you what you're picking. It's very powerful. And my entire family who did not want me writing about them.

And I don't name anyone specifically. But in the book, I write about this crazy case, my entire family cousins, uncles, etc. lost millions of dollars in this Ponzi con. This guy had created a banking investment type website for his con. He was a foreign exchange trader by the name of David Smith. And he did it off the island of Jamaica in Florida and other Caribbean islands too. He got hundreds and hundreds and millions of dollars. Wow. And his trick, he was waving so many flags. Technology

by creating this fake site, right? So people could log in and look at their investment growing. His return on investment was 120% a year. First big red flag. Yeah. But the greed, right? Right? greed is a powerful feeling and con artist don't outsmart you. They outfield you. So the greed took over. So my family got swept up in it. Probably 11 members of my family at all. And they would withdraw money. And he would let them take out money every month. They're making

10% a month. They would take out money. But a lot of them would double down. All right, put it back in. Let it roll, let it roll, put it back in. And then another classic technique he used red flag number seven scarcity. If you think something's going away, you're going to want it more than ever. So all of a sudden he shuts down. He says no more new members. It's an investment club. I'm not letting any new members in. So what happened? His investments went up because suddenly the

friend of a friend, hey, you're in. Can you invest this million dollars for me? Hey, can you

ants, uncles? Hey, you're in. Can you? So suddenly he doubles in triples. The money coming in by telling people no more. When you tell someone no, they want it's more. So he ended up scamming hundreds of millions of dollars from a couple thousand people and 11 of those people were my family members. And if you can see some of your money, it's real. This is legit. But it's not. It's a trick. I know now you run a criminal background check on anyone that comes into your

“life in a significant way. Even in a significant. Right. The freak man. I'm up. But here's the thing.”

It's like Reagan said, trust me verify. You know, I'm friendly. I'm not rude. I'm pretending to trust everyone. But I don't trust anyone. I verify I look for not just criminal records, but has this person been sued. I look at all the addresses they've lived at. And that's another red flag. Most people will live a total of 11 places in our lives. Right. That's a regular person. Sure. By the time I met my con artist, she had 46 different entrances. I was going to say,

oh, I might have like 15 because when I was younger, I traveled a lot and I worked abroad.

scam some other people who don't know them. So they're constantly moving around. But yeah,

“when you meet a con artist for the first time, if you don't know what the flags are,”

the beak wedding, the scarcity and technology that I'm better than you, the good day job. And it's not a red flag on its own because obviously we all work. But professional con artist, even though their main occupation is conning, that's not what it appears. Right. They have jobs. They work for AT&T, mine worked for Pacific Island's travel agency, a luxury travel agency, in Los Angeles. The case I write about the con artist worked at the mayor's office.

Dave. So you would never suspect she's a con artist because she's got a good job.

And that's the thing. The job is just a cover. They're just new in the job for the cover. The real occupation is scamming everyone. And no one knows. That's interesting that the real money maker is the scam. Yes. So they can afford to be like overly generous at the pay. They get from work and they can sort of spend extra time because it's like whatever. They're compensated elsewhere. How do you run the background? What services are you

using to run background checks on people? And also, I'm curious what the level of involvement in your life has to be that triggers this. Right. Like you go to the gym with someone. You're not running a background check on him. You have, oh my god. You are. Wow. Yeah. Everyone I meet. And I mean a lot of

“people. I'm friendly, but I check them out. Where have they lived? Where are they coming from?”

Because I'm looking for two things. Obviously a criminal record if that exists. Or I'm looking for inconsistencies. Well, they told me they're from Kentucky, but I don't see any Kentucky addresses coming up. So that's weird. I look back at my con artist. She introduced herself as mayor Smith. Not a real name. So the me now would have immediately run mayor Smith and come up with nothing and thought, ha. That's a fake name. Why she's using a fake name? I would have snapped a picture

of her license plate. I would have run her plate and got her legal name, Marianne Elizabeth Smith. I would have run that name. And I would have seen charges for felony for fraud, for grant theft,

for passing bad checks and multiple states. And I would have never talked to her again. I use a

couple different sites. One's been verified. One's Intellius. They're also great of bringing up an address history. A lot of courts you can search for civil records for free or for a dollar or two a search. Just go to the counties they lived in and see if they've ever been sued. Because if you're meeting a con artist as an adult, chances are they've been busted a few times already and they just get better, but they leave a trail. If you know their real name and where they lived,

you can find that trail. And I do. And just like that, trust issues installed updated and running in the background forever. You're welcome. We'll be right back. And now for the rest of my conversation with Jonathan Walton. If it's a good con artist, it was just thinking this. Passing bad checks. What an amateur bullshit thing to do, right? A bad check. Oh, this is when she was sort of cutting her teeth on

how to do something that makes real money like get people to literally just give you a hundred thousand dollars over a period of time and not question it versus like passing a $300 check for some crap in getting arrested. Like that's amateur hour. That's white belt shit. It is, but yeah, just like dude, no one understands it's better than you man. You're exactly right. She was a teenager getting busted. Yeah. And each time she got busted, she got better. The con she was running in high

school, she would date college guys. I heard this from a guy she dated and she would pretend to be pregnant and that she would shake them all down for abortion money. And they would pay her quickly. That makes perfect sense. I was actually thinking she was going to say, hey, I'm a minor and I'm going to tell somebody we had slept together and you're going to get charges unless you give me a thousand dollars. I'll go away. But that would be too evil, right? That would just make her

look like an evil bitch as opposed to help me. I don't want to have this baby. It's going to ruin my life. You're right. No, it's even better. One thing that you noted in the book that I thought was quite interesting is you said, con artists are the easiest to fool because they're

narcissists. And they always think they're the smartest person in the room. That was a little

counterintuitive, right? Because these are people of this clever scam, they're manipulating everybody. And it's like, oh, no, actually, you're also a sucker. It's just that we're not jerks. That's kind of all it is. Yeah. And you know, the older I get, I'm 50 now. I realize again and

“again and again. And I keep these moments keep happening where this is obvious to me. Life is a”

series of paradoxes, right? And this is a paradox. How crazy that a woman calling all these people would be the same woman that is so trusting. She was so trusting and they all are. And it has to do with the same reason. If you're a victim or you're someone who thinks I can never get scammed, you will get scammed because your guards are down. You think it can happen so you're not really worried about it. It's only if you're worried about it, can you prevent it? So with con artists,

they think they're the lions. We're all lambs. We're nothing. We would never dare to scammed them. You know, we would never dare to double cross them. So they're trusting. My con artist, foolishly, and it led to her demise two years into our friendship. You know, she's like my sister.

she loved me, but it was always scam. She calls me frantically one day. I was producing

10 things. You don't know for the history channel with Henry Rollins. And I'm on my desk. And I get a call. She's like, she's stuck in traffic on the 405 in LA. She can't get into her email from her phone.

“She thinks she was hacked. She asks me, can you log in to my email account to see if I'm hacked?”

She gives me her password. She trusts me with her password. And she was right, too. I'm not going to do anything. I logged in. She was fine. I said, just restart your phone. Yeah. That'll probably fix it. And it did. And I forgot that whole thing ever happened because it was in middle of my work day. I'm busy. I forgot it. And then after two years later, I realized she scammed me. And I still don't remember. And then one morning, a couple of weeks after I went to police, I'm sitting,

watching CBS Sunday morning on my sofa, sipping coffee. And I remember, I'm like, oh my God, she gave me her password. I know her password. I know her password. I run over, you know, mission impossible music. And I had I run to my computer. I bring up her email. I'm like, is it the same password? My hands are shaking. I type it in. Yes. Oh my gosh. And I'm in there. I'm in there. And immediately, I change it smart. I start snooping around. I find all these other

emails. All these characters she created. They're all linked to that account. And for all those

“fake accounts for her cousin's Tristan, then Durmit and Patriarch Clark and her barristers,”

it's the same password for all the accounts. Oh yeah, of course. So I lock her out of all the accounts. And I wasn't the only victim she gave her password to. Another victim she scammed was helping her set up her firestick on her TV and gave her a password for the firestick. And I'm like,

this is a thing. Con artist never suspect you'll use anything against them. They're the scammers.

You're the sheep. Yeah. She was wrong in this case. It must have felt so good to go in there and you're like, you know, you can see like, hey, you have three log-it failed log-it attempts and you're like that. But I do exporting all the email, having it, you know, we copied to a Google drive for the police. Did you go in and start emailing people that looked like victims and tell them that they were being scammed or send them court records or information? Did you want a fly low a

little bit when you got in there? I flew high. So I started cataloging everything thinking police would care who knew they wouldn't. It was a game changer. I did find a lot of victims and tried to

“convince them to go to police and all of them's refused. I found out she was a sugar baby.”

She had sugar daddy. So she belonged to the site sugardaddy for me.com. Okay. She had a profile. And she had a dozen married men paying her for sex. Wow. For listeners who don't know how sugar baby's sugar daddy's work. It's sex work, right? You meet a wealthy guy. They want to buy you gifts and give you money with the understanding that you meet once a week or once a month and have sex. And that's the arrangement. So she had this arrangement. She only chose married guys because

every time these guys were trying to end the deal, she threatened to go to their wives and they would pay her thousands of dollars to go away. Like this was another revenue stream for her. She was a sugar baby. Wow. So I contacted all of these guys and told them my predicament and said, "She scammed you, too. Will you go to police?" I'll come with you. I'll help you follow the report. No. No. None of them. None of them went to police. But the best email I found was from a friend of

hers who was warning her. So this is how I found out she was on the run from police in order in Ireland. A friend of tipter off, hey, your ex-husband in Ireland posted this on Facebook. Be careful. And it was a screen grab of the post. If you know the whereabouts of Maryanne Smith, she's done horrible things. Call the police this number. So I call that number and I left the message and I got a phone call from a detective in Northern Ireland who told me we've been looking for

her for 10 years. She scammed dozens of people at hundreds of thousands of pounds. And you know, now that we know where she is, thanks to you. She's a Los Angeles. We're going to start

extradition proceedings. This is back in 2017. And I thought it was never going to happen. And as the

years go by, then as I get her convicted in my case, and she goes to jail and gets out early because of COVID, she disappears. I'm constantly hearing from other victims. And I'm sending him the victims and sending him the, she's still up. She still scammed. She went as his extradition going to happen. And he kept telling me I'm working on it. I'm working on it. Finally, she got extradited last year. And she was just put on trial last month. And I was there. Wow, I was there.

I flew to Northern Ireland because I could not miss this with a world. Of course, as soon as I entered that courtroom, one of the victims recognized me because, you know, there's been a lot of press about me in this. And one of the victims is like, that's the man. That's the reason we're here. And they kind of surrounded me and thanked me and hugged me and cried. And I sat with them and watched the trial unfold and a jury deliberated for 17 minutes. And she was convicted in all counts.

And she got sentenced to four years in the Northern Ireland jail. Maybe trials are different in the United States. But 17 minutes is kind of like by the time you sit in the chair, stretch, crack your knuckles. And you go, so she's guilty is shit, right? Never one goes. Yeah.

we had anything to say. Yeah. And then they're writing the verdict down in the sheet or whatever.

“It's like, if you're deliberate for 17 minutes, either it's so flimsy that you have to let”

them go in a quit or it's guilty without any caveats whatsoever. I know. And in my trial in the trial in LA, they deliberated three hours and found her guilty. Even that's not that long for a lot of

this stuff. True. I mean, because, you know, here's the thing, once you catch a con artist,

it's over. No one in the trial in LA for me. And in the Northern Ireland trial last month, she couldn't find a single solitary person to testify in her behalf, not a family member, not a coworker, not a friend. No one would sit on that stand and say good things about them. That omission is huge. And I think if you're a juror thinking, so no one not not her daughter, no one would say good things about her. So she must be a PLS. Yeah. She must be. Did you not get

her own daughter to testify against her as well? I did. I did. That was one of my reachouts. I convinced the daughter. And the daughter was on the fence the whole time. But in the last minute at the 11th hour, she agreed. She got in a plane. She flew to LA. She testified. And you know, this is a lawyer. What I hate about the criminal justice system, no prior bad acts, right? So in my case that went to

trial in Los Angeles, jurors were only allowed to hear evidence for what she did to me. Not what

she did to all these other people. Right. The hundreds of other victims in her life. Yeah. The daughter was only brought in to testify to prove that she's not Irish. There was no inheritance. That's it. The daughter was not allowed to testify. What a PLS her mother is. But she got in some jobs. And this is what how I advise people to testify. Because this is what worked for me when I was on the stand. As a testifying witness, you're only allowed to answer the questions that are asked.

But I would just make my answer so long and weave in everything and I'd get an objection. But by the time you get an objection by the defense and the judge sustains it, the jury heard it. Yeah. And you can't tell the bag. Right. Pretend you didn't hear that. Okay. Yeah. And it's so funny. Full circle moment. During the trial in LA, I would work into my answers.

And she's wanted there's police one who know the nylon for crimes over there.

Objection. All right. Strik and jury. You didn't hear that. But they did hear that. Yeah. And her lawyer tried to make me look like I'm crazy. Like I'm making up this whole Northern Ireland thing. Cut to she was actually the last year and convicted last month. And she's got a four-year sentence. So I didn't make anything up. It's also a kind of a dangerous road. Because if he says you're lying about that, it's like, well, now I get to prove that I'm not.

So you might want to tone it down a little bit and just have your little bit of objection, which is too f***ing late anyway, pal. Sorry. Exactly. I've only been on the stand a couple of

“times, but I love doing that. It's like, you say, well, I met, how did you meet this person?”

Well, I actually met him because he had skit. She had skammed this other, oh, sorry. Allegedly, uh, done something with that other person. I don't know how to handle this your honor. Just keep talking. In the, the council's like objection. And you're like, I didn't actually say the thing, but everybody knows I'm dancing around it, because I'm not allowed to. And so it's like, this person has screwed up so much that it's like, why are there so many holes?

Well, we're not allowed to talk about prior bad acts. So I kind of had to strike nine out of the ten pages of things I was going to say. And they're like, uh, okay, that's not good. All right. Like, the jury's mind is now filling in the blanks of like, what are they leaving out? Because it's obviously a lot. And it's probably all really bad, because this person already seems like a piece of shit. You know, it's tough. I would love to in a little bit of time that we have left

just kind of artists, they try to make the scams as complex as possible. It's harder to explain to the police. It's harder to explain to a jury. It's easier to frame things as some kind of weird mistake or something like that. They try and get written contracts, because then you they could say it's a civil matter. I had a contract to steal all his money through deception. How do we follow up with the police? Right? If they were not a shark tank producer and they kind of

don't really give a crap about our case, what do we do? So before you even go to police,

“you need to write a detail timeline up. Use a word document on a computer. When did you meet this”

person? What did they tell you? When did the money change hands? Write up the story and make it make sense and make it compelling. Share it with your friends and family and neighbors. Get input. Does this make sense? Read this over for me. Do you understand when you know and they'll give you input? Get it to a one page narrative of, on this day, this happened and this and this and she stole this money. Then you need to zero in on the crime. Taking money based on a lie is a crime.

If it's over $900,000 depending on the state, it's grand theft or grand larceny, punishable by years in prison. Regardless of what a couple say, it's not a crime. It is a crime. So focus on the lie that was told and the money that was given based on believing that lie. That's the crime. And then get witness statements that anyone witnessed this. Have them write a statement, get it no to rise. Get everything no to rise. That's impressive. Have no to reseals. Right?

And then have your evidence. Have bank records, phone records, tax, print everything out, put it in files, organize. And then rehearse. It's going to be a 10 or 15 minute presentation. Pretend you're doing a college speech class. You're presenting. Present it to your family.

go to the police station 5 a.m. on a Sunday and present it to the cop by guarantee you,

“they will be impressed. You're not just going, I got scared and you're cut. They don't want tears.”

They want facts. They want an easy case. Give them an easy case. Do the work for them. That's the trick. And then the other thing, most people don't understand. If there are documents involved, save them. If they made you sign a contract, they showed you save that until it gets assigned to an investigator. Because documents turn police off. They immediately, they think business deal gone wrong. And they say it's a civil matter. It's not a crime. So hold those back.

Don't share everything. Only show the compelling things. And the obvious evidence that a crime has happened. They took money based on a lie. Oh, and then even after you get the police report, call them every day. Call them at 6 a.m. Call them at 7 p.m. Call them at noon. Call them every day to different time. Because every time you call about your case, it gets taken from the bottom of the pile and put it the top of the pile. And there is some discussion. Hey, Jonathan Watton's

call me again. Where are we on this? Mary Ann Smith. And they talk about it. Call every day. And I did. And I got my case assigned in three weeks. Because I called every day. I became such

“a pain in their ass. They wanted to get rid of me. And the only way to do that would be to just”

move it on to the next level. Give it to an investigator. I don't want to hear from Jonathan Watton ever again. Right. Yeah. Now it's an investigators problem getting called every day. And I feel bad. We're sorry cops. We're creating annoyance for you. But, you know, if that's what it takes to get you to handle this problem, then here we are. And I think it's just fascinating. Did you mention doing a background check on the con artist when you report to the police as

well? Do we hand them? They, hey, she has 46 addresses. Is that normal to you? Absolutely. Do you a background check? Find out locations they've lived at and do a civil record check to see if they've been sued. Because a lot of times, those civil suits point to crimes. And a lot of times, those victims who are suing are only too happy to help you with your case. Because they want that person going down. You can say, hey, can you write a statement for the police to testify?

Well, even just show the cop. I found this. She did this to this person, this to this person, this to this person. Show a pattern. I like this. And everybody should freeze their credit. Oh, yeah. Because you don't want people opening accounts in your name. That's just a miscellaneous tip. But I feel like everybody should do that. And it's free to do that. You don't have to pay anybody for that. And it works great. I was releasing a car the other day. And I forgot to unfree. Sorry,

froze my credit with the three bureaus. I forgot to unfreeze it. And I couldn't get the car. It came up as they said, you're not, you don't have any credit. We're not showing the credit history. I'm like, oh crap, wait, hang on. And I took my phone and I logged into the three bureaus on freeze unfreezen freeze. Got the car freeze freeze freeze freeze. So yeah, everyone listening. It's only a matter of time before someone takes out a loan or credit card in your name. Because

our information is already out there. Yeah. Those data breaches from Bank of America or the Social Security Administration or, you know, AT&T. Your name, your social, it's already out there. And scammers are buying and selling it in groups. And it's only a matter of time. The

reason it hasn't happened yet is because they're like close to 400 million people in America.

Thank God, they're not 400 million scammers. So there are a few thousand scammers working feverishly to get credit in your name. So freeze your credit. Jonathan Walton, thank you so much. Hell of a story. It's so satisfying that she got expedited and is now sitting in a northern Irish prison. And that's great. Love it. And she's scamming over there. I heard from the mother of an inmate. She's telling people

her name is Maxine. And she's in jail because she wronged the IRA or something. So she's still scamming. What is it? Tigers can't change their stripes or leopards won't change their spots. One of those things. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, this is a lot of fun. What if the person charming you're lonely aunt isn't after love? But her home, her will, and her life savings. In this preview, Havierleva reveals how modern romance scams have evolved into

full blown identity takeovers hiding in plain sight. A lot of con artists, they are very generous

at first. They're the types of people that are going to pick up the tap when you go to dinner.

They're buying you stuff. They're very generous. And they're doing that. It's almost like they're fattening you up for when they need that favor. When they need that favor, when they need that loan, you wouldn't question it because this guy's so generous. Why wouldn't I trust him with money? From a distance, we're thinking about these romance scams like, how could anybody fall for these things, right? But the closer you look into it and put yourself into shoes of the victim,

you realize that when you're in the center of the cyclone, it all makes a lot more sense. Another thing is when somebody smothers you and just consumes all of your time, that's a warning sign too because what they're doing isn't they're cutting you off from your surroundings. They create the urgency so that you could make stupid decisions. And you kind of bypass your reasoning.

“Don't forget your friends. Don't forget your family. Their opinion counts and you should take it.”

Honestly, when you start seeing all these signs, you recognize that maybe this is a situation

con artist, they feel so ashamed that they don't want to tell their story because they've been

violated. They're trust and they're no longer trusting people. To hear how predators turn affection into control, listen to episode 1195 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Thanks so much to Jonathan for joining us today and walking us through the wild, twisted borderline cinematic world of real con artistry, not over the top movie stuff, but the everyday manipulation, the I just want to help. The two kind, two-fast charm offensive, the fake texts,

the isolation, the pity stories, the urgency, the oversharing, all of it designed to hijack emotions before logic has ever had a chance to show up to the table. We covered how con artists build elaborate narratives, how they recruit victims to vouch for each other, how police departments

“often don't have the bandwidth to help unless you force the issue and why you should always”

always check everything, even if it makes you look a little bit paranoid. Remember,

don't be ashamed. Shame is the con artist's greatest weapon. Sunlight is your revenge. All things Jonathan want will be on the website in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter is a lot of fun. I really love writing this. I love seeing your responses to it. It's something practical, something that will have

an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships. In under two minutes, every Wednesday, if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. I'd love to

“hear what you think. It's a great companion to the show. Jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can”

find it. Don't forget about six-minute networking over at six-minute networking.com, you can use it for networking or at the very least know what's in there so that you can spot some of the social engineering stuff for yourself. If it's being used against you in a way that is unfair or unethical, again, six-minute networking.com, I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. In this show, it's created an association with podcast

one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jason Sanderson, Robert Fogretty, Tata Silouskas, Ian Beard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who's been scammed, might be getting scammed or is definitely getting scammed, share this episode with them. In the mean

time, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

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