1310: Sick Mom Needs Me — But So Does My Family | Feedback Friday

starts a shopping trip.

“I want to tell you the first day of shopping.”

And the platform makes me no problem. I have a lot of problems, but the platform is not one of them. I feel that shopping trip is a platform that could only be optimized. Everything is super integrated and balanced. And the time and the money that I can't invest there can't be different.

For all of you in VACSTUM. Now, COSTENLOS tests on shopping trip.DE. Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer.

The industrial binder clip, helping me hold these stacks of life drama together. And occasionally cutting off circulation of my fingertips when I get bored. Y'all know you did that in school too. Gabriel Mazarai. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the story secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating

people in turn, there was them into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with the variety of amazing folks, money laundering experts, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators.

This week, we had hacker slash musicians, technologists.

“I believe is the term we're using, Ben Jordan.”

We talked about AI cameras that are being deployed all over the United States. And these cameras, they scan your license plates, they essentially track our movements. And the data is blended with consumer data. And it really can paint a picture that is not very anonymous of everything that we do. It's pretty invasive technology and pretty fascinating as well.

And these things, your tax dollars are paying for this, which is even crazier.

We basically talked about this new normal in which we are just constantly observed,

wherever we go and how this is being used and misused by law enforcement, hackers, rogue states, other nation states, etc. We also did a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on water filters. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites and compare Gabe and my dynamic to various mundane office supplies,

I guess. Also, I am still sick as you can clearly hear, you know, it's crazy. I did the math because I have nothing else to do because I can't do any. I've been sick the majority of 2026. I'm a guy that used to get sick like once every two to three years.

And when I would get sick, I'd be like, oh, that's weird. I'm sick. And then like three days later, I'd be like, oh, okay, it wasn't that bad. Now, I got sick in December, and it was some kind of kid cold that just took me out. And Jen got sick too. She got better and it took me forever to get better, like forever. I had a crazy sinus infection. I had to get antibiotics and everything.

I'm prone to sinus infections, but I rarely get them. Then I fly to Saudi Arabia. I'm fine. I heal up. I fly back because that trip got aborted. You heard that before. And then I come back and my daughter's like, I don't feel so good. I'm like, okay, my kids, my son, same thing. They're sick for like 24 hours. Me and Jen get really sick. She gets sick before me. And I'm like, oh, I hope I avoid that. And about, I don't know, four days later.

I'm like, I did not avoid that. And so, I've got the same thing. Like, at least the same symptoms.

“I've got crazy amounts of stuff in my lungs, crazy amounts of stuff. And I'm like, is this COVID or what?”

But I tested, I mean, I have an expired COVID test, which maybe isn't the most accurate thing, because it's like two years out of date. But I tested for that. Nothing came up. So I'm like, is this the flu? Because my stomach is fine. I just have like slamming headache, sinus infection fever. And yeah, it sucks. Which weird as I can work out, I can like eat. I have an appetite that has not changed at all. I just feel crappy. And yeah, it's been the

majority of this year. It's such a weird thing. I'm not stressed out. I sleep fine. Like, I don't get it. How is this happening? It must just be the Petri desh of having children. I think it's just having kids bringing home five different viruses. And then they get over it in 48 hours. And me and Jenner, like, oh my god, everything at once. So yeah, so much for antibiotics, slash sleeping it off. Now, working for me. Speaking of industrial clips, I got an interesting Spotify comment on the

Abigail Marsh episode on psychopathy and altruism. Episode 1292 and 1293, by the way, super interesting. Yes, I actually read all those Spotify comments. And I often respond. So this listener, evil double z, wrote research on the charitability of America can be misleading because some researchers count tithing, giving money to a church as charity. It's not. Turns out if you remove that data from the pool, the US ranks rather low, Jordan, the fact that there are so many kids

going without food and medicine means America is an awful place. I never really heard much about

this tithing thing. I know next to nothing about how charitable giving gets calculated in these studies. So I shared this with Abigail and I was like, oh, yeah, maybe his person has a point. She had a really interesting response. Gabe, you want to read that for us? Sure. So she said first, the US is a more generous welfare state than most people realize even if it's a weird and inefficient patchwork. And at the individual level, there is not a close association between political orientation

and how generous people are. Liberals and conservatives show different patterns of giving, but are

people who don't think exactly like me, we're all miserly miserable, terrible people. But okay. Doesn't matter what side you're on, just the other side's worse. I'm saying both sides, just if

“their opinion is different than mine, it makes them a bad person. That's what I've been told.”

That's right. They're horrible people. Exactly. Right. Helps to not be on any side. And then everybody is the worst and you are. That's right. Everybody's the worst. That's what my Spotify comments are like right now. I used to love you until you disagreed with me on this very point that I love to make that isn't even what you or your guest said on the show about Iran. Okay. Unsubscribe. So she goes on. And lots of data sources point to Americans being on the

high end of the generosity spectrum if you look across countries, rarely the very top but always

close to the top and across all different kinds of data. Here are two. America is number eight, most generous. If you look across seven different kinds of altruism in our research. After New Zealand, the UK, Netherlands, and a few others. Among other things, we looked at the five year running average of charitable giving, volunteering and helping strangers, which is part of the world giving index where we are consistently near the top. Yes, we are religious country. So we

do give a lot of our charitable donations to religious organizations and reasonable people can disagree about how that differs from other kinds of charitable giving. For example, Utah has historically been predominantly Mormon and Mormons are prolific tithers. But historically, Utahns also donate by far the most kidneys to strangers per capita, suggesting these are not unrelated choices. But we are generous even when you use measures that don't rely on that.

I thought that was a thoughtful take on this topic and thankfully backed up by real data. My gut response to that comment was that that listener had an axe to grind with America. In fact, I noticed that actually in Spotify comments, specifically that a lot of the comments there are anti-US or anti-US policy or something like that. And there are much more is vitriol the right word. There are much more aggressive and vitriolic. Yeah, then anything I see in my email

“in box. And I think it's because it's easy to leave a Spotify comment and you can be like, yeah,”

my name is bum runner six instead of like writing me from your email address that's your name and then you know, you know, I'm going to reply to you at some point and be like, hey, none of these are facts. Anyway, I also vaguely assumed America was not the most giving country given how much you hearing the news about income inequality and the wealth gap and selfish billionaires blah blah blah. I mean, all that stuff can also be true. But Abby's research paints a very different picture.

I know it's hard to measure this stuff, but it's great to know that even in America, this great sandbox of doggy dog capitalism, there are decent folks helping other people in so many different ways. And look, I'm not saying that in a raw, yay, America's perfect kind of way. I'm more of a let's just be accurate and look at the data kind of guy. So big thank you to Abigail for that. Also one quick thing before we kick off a couple of weeks ago, we did some sponsored

content with Bjorn Ekberg on Red Light Therapy. Some of you guys had mixed feelings about it. I was actually expecting way more negative comments about this. People really actually quite enjoyed

it. Sponsored content basically for those who don't know, that's where I sell a little tiny

bit of my soul for a bucket of cash. And again, a bit of my soul, not the whole thing. Nobody has had the budget for that so far. Unfortunately, so I fortunately, but what it does, because people like, oh man, you're just making whole episodes that are ads now. Yeah, that's the idea because I can keep the ad load on regular show's lower because of that. So instead of having 12 ads or 10 ads in a show, like literally most podcasts on most networks do, I can go, you know what? I'm going

to keep it at whatever it is like six. And then the ones at the end, which I assume no one listens to unless you're like driving and can't switch the show. I can keep it low. I don't have to do more. I don't have to shove things in that interrupt conversation because some company is going to be like, we want to have our CEO on and talk about something. Now, some people said, hey, I'm skipping that.

“That's totally fine. In fact, that's why in the first five seconds of the episode, I say,”

hey, this is sponsored content. It's not the same sort of rigorous deep dive into a topic. The idea is if you're not interested in that, you can skip it. I want to tell you up front so you don't figure it out 20 minutes in and feel dupped. Most people actually said, hey, I like this. That's cool that this company sponsored you. I wanted to hear about this. And furthermore, don't worry. It's not like every week. There's going to be a sponsored episode.

Don't panic about that. You're not going to have to screen every episode. Is this sponsored? It's going to be marked as such. I mean, look, I'd love to have that every week. And then I could record this show from a fancy yacht. And then I can invite all of you to come on and hang out with me on it.

But alas, it's just a sort of occasional thing for now. And it's always going to be clearly marked.

And again, I was pleasantly surprised at how many people really dug that kind of thing. So that means

I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mill bag?

“Hi Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are both in our late 20s. In October 2023, we managed to”

scrape together enough money to buy our first home together. Since then, I've repeatedly found myself becoming the fallback plan for family members who can seem to plan well financially. I've straight up said no to a few people, but I haven't said no to every person who's asked. Hmm, that's tricky. Why'd you give cousin Jeremy money and not me? Well, he's not a moron. Well, okay, fine. He's a moron, but you're an even bigger moron. I got to draw the line somewhere.

Also, cousin Jeremy is just funnier. I don't know. It's any as better weed. Yeah, exactly. Like awkward. But here's the real issue. Yeah. For example, in summer 2024, my brother moved in with us for what was supposed to be a week. And ended up staying nearly three months. Oh my god. We only allowed this because he seemed like he was trying to do better for himself until he's simply stopped working and stopped trying all

“together. He sat in my living room and played video games for almost a month before we made the”

decision to kick him out. But the night we were going to give him the news and a time frame. His baby was born and he left on his own. Oh my gosh, you're lucky that resolved itself. But how stressful and also not cool. Imagine gave the goal, the goal, the goal. That is exactly the word that just came to mind. I cannot imagine moving into someone's home for a week, supposedly. And then staying for three months and playing grand theft auto in the living room instead

of certain apartments on westside rentals. What are you doing dude? It is shameless to the point

like I'm having second hand embarrassment. I would be losing so much sleep over. I would not.

I would sleep in the backyard before I would sit on this man's couch and play video games. I am with you on. I mean, I guess maybe he's like I'm his brother. It's okay. I'm entitled to this. Even if it's your maybe, but even if you're somebody's close relative. Yeah, I would not be able to even sleep comfortably. I would just feel too bad. I guess he was just escaping what sounds like a very stressful life. But it sounds like

like he said it just gave up. That is just a level of squatting, free loading. That is hard for me to wrap my head around it in any way. And now he's a dad. So I wonder where he where did he go? I'm confused. I have a feeling he just shacked up with the mother. Where was the mother? But where was she? Yeah. Either way. He clearly had another option the whole time. So yeah, it's like, oh, I guess I could live with the woman who's having my child. But oh,

that sounds terrible. That doesn't like Grand Theft Auto. Yeah. Now, man, the Xbox is right here. That makes me just like, why does he need to move in with our friend here if you had another option the whole time? What a weird situation. Now, as a fall of 2025. So for about six months, my mother is living with us again due to poor planning and money issues. I say, again,

because this isn't the first time I've had to house my mom for similar reasons. Dude,

“you need to move to China, China. Is that these people? Stop asking you for a couch to crash”

on for God's sake. That's so funny. Can I crash on your couch? Oh, yeah, totally. You know, the thing is though, it's in Guangdong now. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, look, no, if you're looking for jobs in Newnan, you can totally crash with me. I got you. Even before we owned a home, we had to move her into our first apartment, a 600 square foot studio, because she got evicted and had nowhere to go. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's sad and stressful. Also, wow, 600 square foot.

Ooh, I was going to say which part is more stressful? Getting evicted? Knowing your mom has gotten evicted or living with your mom in a 600 square foot shoe box. I lived in one that was about that size and there was, I could not have a house gust for more than a day. Yeah, no kidding. Unless they sleep on top of, maybe that's the idea. Well, both, look, getting evicted later in life is crazy. I've been evicted before when I was in my early 20s and it was like a business thing.

I had like rented this place for people who worked at my old company and like, you know, we just like bit off weather we could choose to surprise surprise. And yeah, it's scary, because like, you're getting kicked out of the place where you live. Luckily, I had another place where I actually lived that still. Yikes. I couldn't leave my mother homeless, so I told her to stay with us. And she did for a couple of months until one day when I asked her how much she had saved her response. Nothing.

After that, we got her to save some money and we helped her move into her own apartment. I don't want to jump the gun here, but I am angry. So she could save money. She's living with you in a 600 square foot apartment. She just didn't bother doing it. Just like the brothers. So these people they have options, it's just somehow easier to ask our friend here to house them because he was the only responsible person in the entire family and bought a house and actually pays his freaking bills.

But this time, the situation has gotten a bit more complicated. For one, my wife and I are expecting

we'd been trying for some time. Amazing. Wow. Congratulations, man. I assume like that couple

from last week, you guys conceived while your mom made a hot pocket and watched Love Island three meters away from you. You know what, Jordan, you're joking, but I'm just thinking about the math. You've been living them for six months. Baby is due in six months. Yep. That was some walk-in closet sex. Thank God it was at the 600 square foot apartment that you guys conceived and at least you have a little room this time. No. About 30 of the square feet was that walk-in closet

maybe. I don't know. That was some bathroom sex. I have a feeling. Wow. Okay. So now they have another free loader. I assume baby is crashing in our womb because it got evicted from the last

“one. Baby's are so financially irresponsible. When are they going to get their shit together?”

Never famously entitled. Famously entitled. Yep. Paris literal parasites. The other major

complicating factor is that my mother has been battling cancer for several years. Oh boy, he old plot thickeneth. I love my mom and empathize deeply with her illness. I've shown up for her in ways I never thought I'd have to because of it. She's a good person and we have a good relationship. But I also feel the strain this situation is putting on my marriage and my ability to focus on my growing family. The thing is, she can care for herself and live on her own. She doesn't make

a lot of money but when we suggest she work elsewhere, she says she feels stuck because her insurance from work is paying for the treatments and doctor visits which I completely understand. But she also doesn't try to better the situation by gunning for a promotion, working a side job or anything like that. She works her 36 hours per week, comes home and hides out in her room most of the time.

“If my wife and I didn't cook in home most nights, she would literally just go to bed hungry.”

All of this makes us feel a little like she has no fight left in her. Fortunately, she's put on some more weight since moving in with us and she's gone for walks the past couple of days, so maybe there's a glimmer of hope there. Only time will tell, but I don't know her to be someone who sticks with things long-term when they're uncomfortable. Carrying for her is essentially all on me. The brother I mentioned bounces from job to job and has been evicted. My other brother is currently

in prison. My aunt lives out of state and my mom's not close with any other family. She's also been somewhat of a reckless, since we all grew up in left home, so she doesn't have many friends either. We desperately want to reclaim our home and our privacy, but I'm struggling with how to tell my mom that we can't have her living with us long-term. I'm torn between guilt and responsibility. Then recently her doctor said that he believes the tumor has gone a little smaller.

If our living situation has contributed to her getting better somehow, I don't know how I could possibly ask her to find other living arrangements. I feel bad for even feeling this way to begin with. How do I set a boundary with a parent who is seriously ill without feeling like I'm abandoning her or blowing up my family relationships? Signed in over my head trying to keep my mom fed and in a bed when she can't

manage her bread and I'm trying to build my own life instead. A whole man very tough situation,

very tricky. I really feel for you here. So first of all, congratulations on buying your own home

on building your own life and now on the baby that is super exciting. The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you've managed to do with the rest of your family can't. Become stable, keep a roof over your head, build a steady, connected, successful life. It's very impressive, man. Not a lot of people can create enough escape velocity from situations like this, but you did, and I'm so proud of you for that. This reminds me a little bit of my mom, she had like a crap

particular kind of family situation as well. A bit similar in some ways. The second, I'm so sorry about your mom going through cancer just sucks. It sounds like she's handling treatment relatively well. I'm very happy to hear that she's getting better, but it's a really sad thing to watch a parent go through, and I'm sorry that it's pulling focus from the life that you want to build.

“Life is indeed crazy, man. I'm also sorry that your mom struggles to take care of herself on”

her own. I'm touched, you guys have such a good relationship and I understand that she's not a bad person, but she is putting you guys in a very tough situation. She's making all of this harder, that sucks too. I also have a strong suspicion that taking care of your family has been your role for a long time, even before buying the house. And so thinking about taking a new stance with them just feels very strange. The guilt you're feeling, yeah, it's partly a very normal reaction

to not stepping in and saving people you love, but I suspect it's also a symptom of rewriting an old pattern feeling like you're ditching someone who's looked to you to save her and prop her up for a very long time. Yeah, for sure. I also wonder if his mom might be kind of depressed right now. That's the vibe I'm getting. I get that vibe. I mean, he said it seems like there's no fight left in her. She just goes in a room and would go to bed hungry if they weren't feeding her. I mean,

to bed hungry, the not tending to her relationships, just the general passivity. They do sound

like signs of depression. Now, being depressed when you're going through cancer and struggling financially is not uncommon, very understandable. But I also get the sense that mom has probably been depressed or depressive even before the diagnosis. And what's interesting about that is if that's true, then our friend here probably hasn't just propped his mom up financially. He's probably propped up emotionally. And it is very common for children to feel like it's on them to keep their

parents mood up. I think especially their mothers mood up to keep them engaged with life. Even if they don't realize it. So I wonder if that's where a lot of this guilt is coming from. It's not just about making sure she doesn't become homeless, which of course is a very real concern. It might also be about withdrawing that fundamental life energy from a parent who really

struggles to maintain it on her own. Yeah, that basic desire to live and to live well.

It's a template that goes back a very long way for most people and it can be really, really painful

“to put down. Well, that's why he's worried about abandoning her. Or like he said, feeling like he's abandoning”

her. I don't know if he is. Right. Anything less than saving her and doing what she wants. That feels like he's fundamentally failing her, which is interesting. Right. So maybe we need to talk about what abandoning means. A great, because I think his definition of support is it's a little little bit miscalibrated. Anything less than like total caretaking feels like desertion. Yeah. Exactly. And meanwhile, she's actually the one who's putting him in this position.

Totally. I think you could make the opposite case. I think you could argue that his mom is abandoning herself. But he's taking it on him. I agree with that. And then she's making it his problem.

Basically, outsourcing the most basic responsibilities to him. I mean, think about a game.

We have a few things we kind of have to do as humans. Right. We've got to work so that we can provide for ourselves, food and shelter. And she's like, fine. I'll go and do the work thing and do the bare minimum. But I'm not going to handle the food and shelter part. Wow. Okay. This is behavior. I would kind of expect from a preteen. It's strange to be. Anyway, some of the little torn here, if his mom were an awful person, if there were a bunch of other people who could help her,

I'd feel more comfortable telling him to tell her, hey, sorry, mom, you got to figure this out. But she's a decent person. They have a good relationship. She's clearly struggling. But then he's also starting his own family. He wants his home back. I mean, look, if she were very old, very sick, could not live on her own different story. But she can totally live on her own. And she's not to your point holding up her end of the bargain here. Yeah. Cancer, notwithstanding,

“that is not okay. So here's my feeling about all this. I think you need to find a middle way here.”

In that middle way, it needs to help your mom get through this chapter. And it needs to move you closer to prioritizing yourself and your family. You guys are stepping into a new life phase. It's a beautiful life phase. It's not really healthy or appropriate to be living with your mom. If you don't absolutely have to, I think the question you need to ask yourself is, what is a fair role, a sustainable role that you can play in your mom's life without compromising

your sanity and your family? Because there's a lot you can do for your mom. You can help her navigate housing, treatment, doctors, appointments, logistics. You can help stabilize her finances again. You can help her find another apartment. You can try to recruit some support. So this doesn't all fall on you. If money is super tight, you can look into housing programs for people with medical conditions or income-based housing. You can encourage your mom to rebuild ties with some other

friends or family who can share the load. There are community groups, religious support networks.

“There are nonprofits dedicated to helping sick people manage their finances better. A lot of”

oncology departments, they have social workers and patient resource coordinators who are plugged into good options. And of course, you can still help her coordinate her care. You can advocate for her with her doctors. You can provide emotional support all within reason. So there's still a lot you can and should do to help your mom without turning your home into an open flop house. And the way I communicate this is, I'd sit down with your mom. You could do this with your wife if it's helpful or

just one-on-one. And I would say, mom, we love you. We want to support you through your treatment. We're so happy that you're getting better. You're not alone in this. But with the baby coming, our home is going to need to just be the three of us. So we need to work together over the next few months to figure out a permanent living situation for you. Your health is trending in the right direction. The babies do in three months. Let's set a date for us to find you a new home and

get you set up. I'll still be involved. I'll still be close. I still love you. And you have a place to live until we find an apartment. You don't have to worry about that. But it's time to find us a solution that works for all of us. Nice. I like that a lot. And then I would have the larger conversation about what she's been asking you to do for her. What you're going to need from her to make this work. Namely, basic financial responsibility. I know it's hard to imagine saying this to

your mom. But I feel like she needs to understand the position she's put you in. The ways in which she's just not holding up her end of the bargain. Now, given the history here, she might not go, oh, a boundary. I love boundaries. I love hearing that. I'm not holding up my end of the bargain. And I won't be able to squat with my son indefinitely. Totally respect that. So I'd be prepared

negative one, I would try to stay neutral, loving, still, but neutral. And I wouldn't walk things back

or capitulate immediately to make everything better. You can say, okay, I see this is really hard. I know it brings up some uncertainty. Nobody is leaving you on your own. We are going to figure this out together. I'm just asking for an equal partner here. The together piece is big. I think she needs to step up here. Yeah. And then I would be very vigilant about what that brings up in you. The guilt that you talked about sadness, whatever it is, because that's part of the dance between

you and your mom. She asks or demands implicitly or explicitly, you feel guilty. You accommodate her. If you draw boundaries, she might bristle at it. You feel like a bad son and then you cave. And then the situation just continues. If you want to rewrite this pattern without feeling like a bad son, like you said, you have to notice how these feelings arise in you. And then you really

have to be willing to feel them, capitulating to your mom, yes. Part of that is a genuine desire to

care for her, of course, and that's very kind. But part of that is also probably a way to not have to feel these feelings at all. Right. But what's interesting is, then he feels other feelings, resentment, frustration, stress. So it's like, which bad feelings do you want to feel? Yeah. It's a good question, because he's accepting the unpleasant feelings over here, because they feel safer and more acceptable than the unpleasant ones over there. And by over there,

I mean, the ones closer to mom. The ones that might provoke her might disappoint her. Yeah, he'd rather carry that than have to bear her response. So I hear all that and I agree. And

“I'm genuinely worried about his mom's money situation. Let's remember that our friend moved”

her into his studio apartment once before because she got addicted. She straight up didn't

save enough money to pay the rent. And then when she moved in, she didn't save any money until

he was like, Hey, I'm getting involved and you are saving money. So my fear is even if he manages to get her into a new place, how does he prevent this from happening again? I'm with you. He can't be as mom's savior over and over forever, especially if it's not even really necessary. But if she's not able to take care of herself in this way, is it kind of necessary? I mean, I'm kind of worried that it might be. I would say there are solutions there too. Maybe he needs to get more involved

in her finances. Maybe he needs to monitor her bank accounts, cut the rent check himself each month. Maybe he needs to collaborate with his brother or his aunt or his wife and tag team, mom's money situation. So it's not all on him. There are options. Okay. Yeah. That's kind of a relief. There's a middle ground here. I'm just worried about this woman. I feel like she's expecting her son to save her because she won't take basic care of herself.

And because he continues to save her, she just has no motivation to improve at all. But that's exactly it. If he stops this pattern, she might be forced to take care of herself in the best way. True. And then there might be a transitional period where he supports her from afar until she can figure out how to do this on her own. Also, he's late 20s, right? So she's probably what in her 50s early 60s or who knows. Maybe maybe even late 40s. I mean, she's not 70, 80,

90 years old. I keep picturing this frail old woman with cancer. Can't keep track of her bank

“of America card. But then I remember that that actually is not the case. No, you know, that's a good”

point. But even if she can handle this better, if she's just in an apt and that won't change, then he's going to have to be involved in some degree. To some degree, the degree is where the boundary comes in. Look, another idea occurring in me here, you're about to have a baby. I'm sure you know that that's going to be very full on for a while. So if your mom can't afford her own place, if she needs to stay with you for a while, what if you told her, look, mom, we could use

some help with the baby for the next year or two years or, I don't know, six months, whatever, you pick a reasonable timeframe. So if you're going to stay here, we'd like to ask you to pitch in for a couple hours and watch the baby help with dinner. Whatever it is, you guys could use help with. I know that might sound kind of quid pro quo. It is quid pro quo. She is straight up expecting you to give her free plays with free food, free rent, whatever. At least this way,

the arrangement becomes fairer to you guys. And she feels more of a sense of purpose being there.

“But you need to make the timeframe and expectations very clear. Once Naomi turns one or two or”

whatever, we, we find you your own place. And you are on the hook for two hours every week, day night and four hours every weekend or whatever, every day on the weekend, whatever it is. And you just, you can't hold up in your bedroom and watch a virgin river every night and come out for food and go back in. We need you involved. It is interesting because it is quid pro quo. But like you said, she's already made this somewhat transactional. So, maybe fairer is fair. This is a clever

solution to this. It does sound like a win-win to me. Yes. I mean, look, a couple hours of baby sitting at night is like, let's say it's 30 bucks an hour, which is, I don't know, probably a decent wage where he lives. That's pretty good in exchange for food and a place to sleep. You know, then four hours on the weekend, it's like, okay, well, we're talking about 120 bucks. I mean, this is like a person earning enough money to be tolerated. I guess. And look, he might not want

I'm a little disappointed that his mom didn't bring this up herself. Yeah. This would be a different story if she was like, look, I know I'm imposing on you. I know this is a lot to ask. I really want to find ways of being helpful to you. Let me help with the baby instead of being like, oh, I didn't save any money. I just figured I would mooch off you indefinitely. I mean, gave him imagining. He's like, how much have you saved? And she's just like a teenager who's

wasted all their money on what a kid's buy now, Yu-Gi-O cards. Like, she just looks down and

is like nothing. Like, oh, I was hoping you would just never ask. And the consequences of this

would just never come to bite me in the ass. It's like insanity. Like the brother, no self-awareness slash doesn't care enough about other people to be like, yeah, I'm free loading. I should do something about that. That's a whole other part of his letter is that this seems to be a pattern in the family. This is the family way, but you know what else I'm thinking about? I wonder how his wife feels about all this. I have to assume that she is not a happy camper. No way. This is going to be a

“problem in their marriage if they don't figure this out, which I think he probably knows already.”

So I'm sorry you're in this position, but I know it's really hard, but this is also a great opportunity to find a new way with your mom, with your entire family. I want to say something that might sound a little mean. It's not my intention. I promise, but the picture you've painted here, I get the sense. Your mom is a bit of a mess. And I'm sure her parenting played a big role in your brothers outcomes. You seem to have charted a very different path, which like I said is hugely impressive

and beautiful. And I feel it's very important for you to protect this life you've built and not allow your family to drag you down. I'm not telling you to disown them. I'm not saying you shouldn't help them appropriately where you can, but the housing is almost the least of it. What's really it's stay here. I think is your independence, your identity, your momentum, your new family, all of which need to be your top priority. So my strong advice is to keep your eye firmly on those

things and trust that you're not a bad person for not wanting to compromise them in order to save people who cannot or simply will not save themselves. Sending you, your mom, your wife, and your

“new baby, a big hug, and wish you all the best. You know who else wants to live with you rent free”

if not in your home, then at least in your head. The amazing sponsors who support this show,

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business 50/50 with my mom. Our massage therapists have recently transitioned from

“independent contractors to an employee model. My mom and I've worked alongside each other,”

which created the illusion that we worked together well, but truthfully, we were just in silos. Since moving to an employee model, conversations about building an ethical business have been coming up, and my mom and I have different ways of going about that. Namely, I'm noticing that my mom gets overwhelmed easily and struggles to collaborate. She has a strong need for autonomy, is not liking the idea of structure,

and doesn't want us to "control" or "police" other people. I keep telling her that it matters how we wield our power rather than the fact that we have it. Nevertheless, we keep getting into these stalemates. I keep bringing issues up to her problems I want us to solve with protocols, and my mom keeps getting overwhelmed and needs us to stop talking.

Okay, I'm getting the strong sense that mom is not fit to run a business at all. Having these conversations continually get shelved is making it impossible to make any progress at all on solving the issues that are keeping us stuck. To boot, she keeps going to chat GBT and wielding it as an ultimate authority. For example, she'll turn to chat GBT and then say things to me like she wants us to "stuward" instead of "manage our employees."

That's so annoying. So annoying, but when I try and talk to her, she totally freezes up and checks out. She's gaining the knowledge, but not living it in action. I don't know how I'm supposed to run this company with her when every conversation needs to be quote-unquote metabolized for days on end, stretching it into weeks. I don't know how I'm supposed to take her out of a word when her words are coming from a large language model and not her.

I brought up joint therapy with her and she said she doesn't think we need it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, something about leading a horse to water and drinking. That's hilarious. Meaning her mom uses the lead to horse to water and metaphor. Or wait, no, she's saying she can't lead her mom to the water with weight. I don't get it. Unclear, I'm realizing now that she might have just written that for herself as a draft

and put it all together. Whatever. That's funny. I've done that. Whatever it is. That is kind of hilarious.

“I remember doing that on an exam in high school. I wrote something like,”

"It's cetera. It's cetera. Something something something. It was a science exam." In the teacher, Jordan could be a verse like, "He was also my neighbor and my friends dad, thank God." So I walk over there and I'm like, "Yeah, I'm Mr. Carney." And he's like, "Tell me how I can't remember." I was like, "Tell me how something with precipitation, whatever works." And I was like, "Oh, dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner," and he's like,

"It's cetera, et cetera." And I was like, "No, like, it does this in this and he just kept saying, "What do you, you know, et cetera, et cetera?" He was like messing with me. And I was like, he's like, "Explain it to me exactly." So I did and he goes,

"Okay, but here's what you've wrote." And it literally was like,

"And then water evaporates, et cetera, et cetera." He becomes a cloud rain-stown later, et cetera, et cetera. And he's like, "Where are you expecting me to fill that in for you?" Because I've seen that trip before, and I was like, "No, that was a placeholder." And he's like, "You've got to remember to come back to that stuff." He's drawn X. I love the idea of filling out an exam and writing in brackets. Insert correct answer here.

“Yeah. Okay. At least I should get some points for at least trying, right?”

Hey, here's the part where I don't know how anything works, et cetera, et cetera. Gosh, anyway, her mom sounds extremely challenging. This would drive me up the wall. Yeah, more like blah, blah, blah, something about one person rowing one person drilling holes in the

boat. Am I right? Literally, blah, blah, 10% off your first month of family therapy with your mom,

better help.com, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, boy, how do I deal with someone who keeps using cha-chEPT for all mental and emotional labor and personal conflicts? In fact, for almost everything, signed a massage entrepreneur trying to need. That's K and EAD. The knots out of the system that impedes a way to meet my need. That's N-E-E-D in case you can see of which I have plenty, including trying to run this business at high

speed, which is why I will concede that I would love to plead that my mom not used cha-chEPT to advise on how to lead when I would love to proceed with running this business as I please. That was a new one, Gabe. I like that format. PUNS AND META Rhymes. You wiling. I'm just changing up. All right. So this is mildly infuriating on so many levels. First of all, I'm very sorry you're struggling to work with your mom and to communicate. There's a reason

people say don't work with family. I'm not trying to shame you here. It's just this would be hard with any business partner. I'm sure it's 50 times harder with a parent. And I'm sorry that it's making it impossible to make real progress on solving these problems. The thing is running a company, it's all solving problems. Every single day. Big ones, small ones, managing people, taking care

even talk about this stuff, I mean, I literally don't understand how you are supposed to run this

company together. I can tell you exactly how this dynamic goes. I either you start doing everything yourself because she can't and slash won't. And then you resent her and you guys grow even further apart. Or you continue to tussle and/or avoid each other and the business suffers, maybe even crumbles. Unless something big changes. You would have to change the way you approach her, the way you talk to

“her, how you frame these things in a way she can partner with you on, not that I think that's really”

on you. And or she would have to learn how to tolerate these conversations long enough to actually find a solution with you. And candidly based on what you shared, it sounds like it's more the latter, but I wonder what she would say if we could talk to her. It's possible just making room for this idea that there's something about the way you talk to your mom that easily overwhelms her. Now even if that's true, I would still say she needs to be able to tell you look. I want to find

a solution with you, but I'm overwhelmed by the way you're talking to me. I need to just run a approach. So I'm not letting her off the hook here. Yeah, that's fair. But if she were the kind of person

who could just say that, she probably would not be in this position in the first place and she

would not probably be trying to get a mini part time MBA from the University of Judge EPDT. Right, but you know, look, I'm trying to address all the possibilities here. So I'm actually a little surprised by your question. This is not ultimately about working with a partner who uses AI to navigate personal conflicts. Although that is super annoying. And if I had to listen to my avoidant and frazzled mom use words like steward and metabolize and meetings and then just go off for three

weeks and avoid discussions, I would be pulling my freaking hair out. Really, this is about working with a partner who based on what you shared, just doesn't have the wear with all to tolerate conflict, to manage stress, to hang in the tension of a decision, and to consistently collaborate with you on finding solutions and everything that entails. In other words, again, to run a freaking business. Shee. You did a yourself. You didn't go with this. Yeah, this week. That's right.

Now, yeah. And her mom also seems to have very different ideas about what good management

“looks like in the first place. Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. I think you mean steward ship Gabriel.”

Oh, sorry, I didn't steward ship, but I don't even know what that means. It's a corporate buzzword. The sense I'm getting is that her mom has some real anxiety around power and responsibility in general. A hundred percent. I don't think this is philosophical. I think she's so afraid of managing people and being in charge that she's trying to rig a lot of this and find cute buzzwords that make it feel less stressful, which is absurd. You said regal? Yeah, regal out of regal. Wait, hold on.

Are these two different words? Regal and I, yes, I believe they're different words. So, I did not know that. I thought you regal out of responsibility. I thought you regal out of responsibilities, but no, it makes sense that these are two different words. Like now that I think about that. Yeah, I just looked it up. You, no, you regal. And I think when it's WR, you say regal. Yeah, well,

that makes sense. So I just thought that regal was spelled W, I, no, why did I think? I guess I never

knew how to spell the word regal. Okay. Or I thought it was both. I'm not sure now. I have to examine my brain to figure that. And then also I thought that it was just the same word. You know what? It's funny because I also remember the word "tachi" T-E-T-C-H-Y. I used to think people were just saying "tachi" and spelling it weird. Or saying it weird. Yeah. That's hilarious. No, that's a different word. Yeah. From the team that brought you can apps. This is a little bit less dumb than that, I hope.

“But I mean, I bounced off the rock bottom with can apps, I think. I just love the part of the”

family. Now, leave Spotify comments about this. Did you know that wiggle and regal were two different things, or were you kind of like, no, I thought you wiggled out of responsibility too, because now that's a funny visual. To be fair, they are closely related. Like, you wiggle is when you kind of move in place. But when you regal, I think it's when you like try to get out of something, or avoid something. So they are kind of, they're adjacent, you know. Okay. So back to the actual situation

at hand, why did they move to an employee-based model if she doesn't want to manage people? I am so confused. That is the, that is a terrible decision. I was just wondering the same thing. Yeah. Now they got to stand top of them even more. There's probably reasons for this. Like, maybe their state was like, hey, these people are definitely not contractors, because they only work at your play. I don't know if they're. But if you hate all power, no matter what,

maybe you don't run a small business. You kind of have no business doing that, no pun intended. Go work for someone else, because this stance on power, quote, unquote, it's not getting you anywhere. In fact, it's, you're going to run into serious issues if you just refuse to manage the people that work for you. I feel like she needs to have a real conversation with her mom about what is happening here between them and how it's impacting the company. I agree, but I have no

idea where she's supposed to start, because this monster has like six heads and they're all trying

I think that's the least problematic part of this letter. Maybe you sit down with your mom and you

“say, look, I think we're both noticing some new challenges since we moved to this employee-based”

model. That's to be expected. You and I have more contact than we did before. I'm realizing that we

have very different ways of approaching problems. Here's what I'm noticing, and you can share briefly

some of your observations, and you can ask your mom, what do you noticing? What has this been like for her? And then I would say something like, I would really love to work on this stuff so that we can be better partners to each other and also for the benefit of the company. And if there's anything that I'm doing to contribute to any of this, I want to know, and I want to see if I can do anything to make things more productive. But then I would talk specifically with your mom about this tendency

to get overwhelmed, struggle to collaborate. Her apparent need for autonomy, this allergic reaction, to structure, to controlling, quote unquote, your employees, and why she feels the need to go away for days or weeks, and what is she up to in that time? And why is it hard for her to stay in touch with you as she works through a decision? Maybe see if she responds to you in a new way, even a little openness and flexibility could make a very big difference. I like all that in theory

gay, but my fear is that her mom does what she always does and just gets overwhelmed and says,

sorry, I need to stop talking about all this. I can sort of visualize this and it's annoying even the visual of someone be like, I can't think about this right now. Gosh, get away from my business. If that happens, then I would say, okay, Mom, I hear you that you're overwhelmed. My intention is not to overwhelm you, but when you get overwhelmed and pull away, then we stop talking and we don't make any progress. So I'd really like you to stay in this

conversation, and maybe you can tell me why it's so overwhelming, and maybe I can help you find a way to make these conversations more doable. And if she's still can't, if she still can,

“then I think our friend needs to start thinking about whether this partnership really makes sense.”

That's where I met with all this. I worked with dysfunctional partners for years, just way too long, and I know how crazy making it is. I just don't see this ending well. These people don't change. Plus, when the partner driving you crazy is also your mom, that just adds a whole other layer to the dynamic. It's very tough. Totally, I'm sure this overwhelm this avoidance. These

qualities didn't just crop up on their working relationship for the first time. Right? If she's

like this at work, I'm guessing she was probably like this at least to some degree growing up in their home, and that probably tops into some very old personal stuff. And I'm sure that sends our friend over the edge. I'm sure if I had to run an Etsy business with my dad or whatever, I'd last like three weeks. We'd be at each other's threats. Love you dad. Not going to happen. Also, when you're annoyed with your business partner who's just a business partner, it's so much

easier to say, hey, the way you're doing this is driving me crazy. We need to get better at this. But when it's your mom, that can be really hard. Even harder than if it's your dad. It might feel cruel, scary, or dangerous. It's hard to call out your own parent. The other option is maybe buy your mom out and you take over the company. I think so. And if she's not open to that, I would say maybe you leave it to her and you just go start your own. There are options.

Yeah, but I would not make any decisions until you guys really talk. You got to give this one good shot and see if you can make progress before you make a big move. Honestly, this sounds very stressful, very frustrating. It sounds to me like you're looking for a real partner here. Someone who can really be in this stuff with you, which is what every business partner needs and deserves, and you're not getting that from your mom. Ultimately, you're not stuck in this business.

“I'm not saying you should piece out tomorrow, but I would remember that you have the freedom to”

partner with the people you want to partner with and build the kind of business that you want to build. It sounds to me like your values and skills are the right ones, and those are going to be great assets to you, whatever you end up doing. And if you end up going through a business breakup, maybe have chat GPT, write your resignation letter. I'm sure it will steward all of this perfectly, and it will give your mom plenty to metabolize. All right, now we want you to metabolize the

deals and discounts that we're about to shove down your throat. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quints. I'm a pretty normal guy, asterisk. You guys know me, so that might just not be true. I'm not spending hours chasing down fashion trends. How's that? I'm definitely not trying to reinvent my wardrobe every season. I just want clothes that are comfortable, well made, easy to wear without looking like, you know, too much of a dad.

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“inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes”

and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanaharbinger.com/news. All right, next up. I Jordan and Gabe, I must say I'm a little disappointed with your recent feedback on Ellie, the woman taking advantage of her mother-law with those long visits with the kids. That was questioned three on episode 12, 94. Yeah, this is the mom that was getting UTIs from sitting so long because her daughter-in-law held her hostage and gossiped to her and the kitchen

while the kids watched TV upstairs for hours every day. You didn't give enough consideration to the fact that Ellie's husband Peter might be the problem. I'll be 49 this year and I've spent my 40s unlearning the subtle misogyny that's been bred into us all. I'm a mother myself and

although my mother-in-law is an absolute dream, I never considered spending nine hours a day with her.

That's probably because I have friends, parents, and siblings, and a husband who doesn't emotionally neglect me. Maybe Ellie has no one else. I'm not excusing her taking advantage of her mother-in-law those who don't roll your eyes yet. Let's take a look at Peter. He seems to know very little about what his wife is doing at his mother's house or does he know everything. If he's the breadwinner, then why isn't he offering his mother some money when he hears that

he's been feeding his family? Also, are we supposed to believe that he makes his own meals every night or eats out every day after work? Hey, Pete, where the hell are you? He seems to be living a separate life from his wife and kids. Does he do anything with his family? Also, we don't know. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. Fair questions, but we don't have the answer. Could Pete, we did beat. Also, the siblings all seem to be pinning everything on Ellie. Typical

clanish behavior, because bro can do no wrong. It's all very dysfunctional, and precious Peter seems to be out of the loop altogether while the whole family bitch is about his wife who's probably struggling really badly and completely isolated. This led it. I love her writing style. So this is what's going on in my head, which he's just writing it down. Love that. Did she move away from her previous life to be there? Is her own mother-in-house hole?

Does any of Pete's crew actually have a relationship or a conversation with her sister and

La Elly? I've always found that women are villainized so much more quickly than men.

They either don't let granny see the kids or granny sees the kids too much. Anyway, love the show. I'd love to know if this gave you a little food for thought or are you rolling your eyes at the snowflake feminazi from Ireland? Signed feeling a bit heart sick that you were so quick to point the finger at the check. This is an interesting perspective. I appreciate it. To state the obvious, we didn't have the full

story about Ellie. This is one of the interesting challenges of doing the show, and it's something gay but I constantly obsess about, are we getting this right? What are we missing? What would the other person in the story have to say? We try to account for this as much as possible. We don't

“always do it perfectly, but it's important to us and we do our best. So I think you are making”

some very fair points. If I recall correctly, we did kind of nod to Peter. What he knows about the situation. What he doesn't know. What role he can play in making things fairer for his mom. You're right. It's easy to villainize Ellie. There were plenty of details in the letter that suggested she was oblivious at best and selfish at worst. But I also remember us being a little tough on the mother-in-law too. The mom of the writer for not having the wear with all to stand up

first off a little bit. Totally. And so is that misogyny? Are we just blaming all the women in the story because they're women? I'm not sure I agree there. But I do take your point that it can be easier to point the finger at a woman when it comes to child care than at a man who's at work during the day. And I guess because the bar is pretty low for men in the child care department, they're traditionally not as involved with the kids. But I also remember us saying that if Peter

knew what was happening at the house, he might have some strong feelings about it and intervene.

buy the narrative that Peter might be the sole problem. I mean even if he is more responsible for

“some of this than we appreciated it at first. I think it's very rare that one party is entirely”

to blame for anything. The picture I got from that letter was Mom was abandoning herself which is very interesting theme today among the moms. Ellie was probably taking advantage of her and/or oblivious to how much he was asking of this mother-in-law. And then Peter is either encouraging it or he's just distracted and unaware himself and together they all create this situation. That feels true to me. Yeah, where I fully agree with our friend here is even if Ellie's

out of line, we can be curious about her reasons. Like you said, maybe Ellie has no one else, maybe she's spending so much time with the mom because she's lonely and exhausted and craves the connection. And that's fair. Although I do kind of remember us talking about that, how maybe time at her mother-in-law's house is actually a reprieve from child care. We did, but what's interesting to me about this is yes, let's absolutely be curious about Ellie's reasons for acting

this way. Absolutely, but if it's born from loneliness and isolation, that's still her responsibility. Right? Like we can still ask the question, why is she so lonely? Why doesn't she have other friends? I don't think it's misogyny to say, hey, why are you so isolated? What are you looking for

“from your mother-in-law that you should maybe be getting from a few other people and why?”

For sure, I'm remembering now. Didn't the letter writer say that Ellie's only friends are parents of other kids friends? Yeah, the other moms in the corporal line or whatever, and that's about it.

Right. So yeah, so she basically just has no friends. And so she's turning to her mother-in-law to

meet all of her social, child care, everything needs. But I hear you, that's compatible with her husband being emotionally checked out in distant as well. It's also true that if Peter is this kind of husband, if there are some problems in their marriage or he's just not as involved as he should be, which is definitely challenging in its own way, it's still true that she chose him, and she's not asking him for more. So there's also that. Good point. But look, I totally share your

view that Peter and Ellie need to be way more conscientious about what they're asking his mom to do. The money she spends on these visits in a way, that's the least of it, but it is significant. And that's not cool to ask his mom to do. The very least you should be checking in with her, are you okay hanging with Ellie and the kids so often? Can we cover the costs? Do you need anything? That would be a nice thing to do. And you're right that a number of siblings in that family

were pinning most of this on Ellie, whether that means they side with Peter and feel he can do no wrong, maybe possibly could totally be the case, but that's also speculation. So what I find interesting about your letter is I can hear you're very passionate about this topic and I appreciate that it's really good for us to see. And I do wonder if you might be mapping some of your own experiences and feelings onto this family. Mapping. Interesting, you mean projecting? Well no, Chad Gpt specifically

told me not to use that word. It's mapping Gabriel. We say mapping. Okay, we say, but if you've dealt with anything similar in your own family, I can't blame you for that. Some of these dynamics and biases

“really are universal and that's why I'm glad you wrote in. And some of them are unique to each family”

and we just don't know whether this family is actually being truly misogynistic when they serve Ellie some side eye. But I appreciate the questions and theories I really do. For me, the biggest takeaway is we have to keep wondering about these people's reasons for doing what they do even when they're doing something wrong. Also, I want to keep being curious about alternative narratives and these stories and keep an eye on any subtle misogyny that might creep in because I share your

view up to a point. My takeaway from that letter still is do not set for hours if you have to be because you can get a UTI news to me. That was a big lesson for me too. It's funny you mentioned that I've been thinking about that ever since that episode every time I desk and I have to pee. I'm like, "All right, just get up and pee. Get a UTI." Like that mother-of-law who doesn't go to zoom by any more. Speaking of taking a leak, now's a great time for a break. We'll be right back.

Also in case you all don't know, there is a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode you like an episode you didn't like. You got questions about something. There's additional thoughts. You want to learn from other people in the showfam, come check it out. A lot of cool conversations happening over there. That's at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

All right, now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to it, fella. My recommendation of the week is an artisanal salsa brand called Double Take Salsa. Double Take Salsa. It's a mom and pop based in Minnesota. It's grown from a local passion project to a beloved national brand and they sent me a case of salsa in a bunch of hot

sauce and at first, you know, it was kind of like, all right, salsa, hot sauce. Okay. But it's amazing.

I, it's almost all gone. It's been like a month. It's flavorful. It's unique. I let my nanny try it. She's salsa every day. She's Mexican and she loves it. She's like, this is

is balanced really nicely. One thing that I love about it is there is a fine line with both salsa

and hot sauce. There's a fine line between, wow, this adds kick and flavor and then, you know, over the line is I can only taste the spice. My mouth is on fire and I got hiccups and I'm drinking copious amounts of water. That's not the point of hot sauce, right? It should bring out the flavors in the food and the texture, not just replace it. And this stuff really nails it for me anyway. I highly recommend this stuff. It's so good. They also, since I contacted them about this,

they offered everybody listening a 25% discount, which I think is pretty generous. Just go to double take salsa.com. Buy whatever salsa hot sauce you want. Use code Jordan at checkout. And I want to remind everybody recommendations of the week. They're not sponsored. They're not paid for.

They are just recommendations of things we like. This one happened to be from a brand that wanted

“to offer listeners a discount. This is not like they sponsored it. That's why there's a code.”

I figured I should say that just in case anybody was wondering. By the way, you can reach us Friday at Jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. It makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox and narcissistic fair whether friend is insisting on moving in with you and your fiance or you're stuck between getting mental health treatment and protecting a pension you've worked decades for. Whatever's got you staying

up at nightlyly hit us up Friday at Jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Hey Jordan and Gabe, my wife and I have been married for over 20 years. We've raised two wonderful kids and in many ways raised each other from idiot teenagers to the functional adults we are today. As is frequently the case when people get married to young, our marriage has been fraught with strife from day one. Those early years saw a lot of physical

violence her toward me. In fidelity, again on her part only, lying, gaslighting and manipulation. I certainly won't pretend that I'm innocent of wrongdoing in our relationship, but I very much feel that I have given the best years of my life to a broken woman. Yeah, that's intense, man. So a lot of conflict in this marriage, a lot of pain. This is sad. Wow. For context, my wife grew up in an abusive home riddled with violence and substance abuse. She was physically abused by her father

and even witnessed him nearly murder her mother on several occasions. Oh my god, that's dark. No wonder. When we got engaged in 19, I had no way of knowing the ramifications. This type of trauma could wreak on a person. To top it off about 10 years into our marriage, she shared with me that she had been sexually abused by friends and family members starting at a very young age and not ending until she left for college. Oh my god, that's terrible. Also, at one point during her teen years,

her father left and started a family with another woman. Only to be welcomed back by her mother about a year later and the addiction and physical abuse resumed. Oh my god, holy cow, this

poor woman. At first, I was like, what if he's a work? But now I kind of see why she's hitting

him and cheating on him and spiraling. She just, I hope she's gotten some help. Shortly after we got together, my family revolted against her. I was blindly in love and couldn't see the red flags, but they could. They did their best to talk me out of their relationship, but I rebelled. This, of course, led to major strife between her and them, strife that continues to this day and has resulted in me having next to no interaction with them. I know there's blame all around for that situation,

“and as an adult, I could have more interaction with them if I wanted, but honestly,”

it's just easier not to and avoid the battle at home. Oh man. Interesting. So now we're hearing how he's created this situation. So it's not just his wife. It's also how he's cramping around her and trying not to provoke her, introducing her over his family to keep things uneven, killing all that. That's fascinating. The physical violence has been gone for about five years, but it was replaced with something much more devastating. A few years ago, she started using

the threat of suicide as a method to get what she wanted. Oh my god, what a nightmare. Among other things, she has used this threat to get me to move three times, including a move across the country to be far from both our families. I went along with it thinking that she would be better if she were away from her own dysfunctional family, but of course, they just decided to pack up and move near us with her support. What? That is so manipulative.

I am just at a loss here. Gabe, I also don't know who to blame here and who to feel sorry for.

“There's so much stuff going on here. I know. Very confusing. So he goes on honestly. There are”

too many issues to list. Wow, yes, I believe you for sure. Today, she has devolved into a very bitter, angry, controlling person. She makes many demands, including that I bring her food in bed, do most of the household chores and allow her to have full control over our finances. If she ever sees me sitting down and relaxing, she gets instantly pissed and gives me a laundry

shows to know why she acts this way, but frankly, I'm done with it. I'm very sympathetic to her

childhood trauma and how it's shaped her. I've tried talking to her about it, but she just doesn't care. If I try to stand up for myself, she spends an hour lecturing me for being quote-unquote defensive or having a quote-unquote pride issue. This argument just shuts me down. Oh man, I'm biting my tent. This is still hard to hear. She did try going therapy a few years ago, but it didn't work. I only recently found out that while in therapy, she refused to acknowledge the past sexual abuse.

A move that I'm sure was made out of shame. She was put on anti-depressants, which she still takes, but in no way did she heal from her trauma? Therapy didn't work. Well, did you tell the therapist

“what was going on? No, I hit the most important information about my past and then gave up.”

Went to a shrink, put me on Paxil, called it a day. Very frustrating. But, you know, to be fair, I'm sure it's more like the thought of even going near this stuff is too devastating and humiliating, so I just gave up. Okay, I hear that, but this is, that's just no way to deal with your trauma. No, clearly not. Our kids are now 22 and 19 and I love them so much. I came from a broken home

and made an early vow never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me. I knew

early on that our marriage was toxic and I acknowledge the fact that I'm currently in this situation because I refuse to leave. To me, that was and still is worth it. I've been able to live every day in the same home as my kids and we've somehow managed to spare them from most of our dysfunction. I'm not naive, I know some of it has been seen by them, but my wife's issues are almost exclusively directed at me. I actually think she's been a good mother to them.

“Our kids are very nearly out of the house with the oldest getting married the spring and the”

youngest sure to fly the coop within the next few years. For years, my wife has told me that she plans to leave me when the kids move out. While I do think this has just been a manipulative threat

at times, I really can't see her staying with me much longer. For my part, I decided a long time ago

that if she doesn't leave, I will. My relationship with my kids is strong enough to survive divorce and I feel that I've accomplished my mission of keeping the family together until it naturally grew apart. I also love my wife, believe it or not, I don't think you can spend 20 plus years with someone and not harbor serious feelings for them. I just can't handle the toxicity anymore. I'm not writing because I want to fix her or the relationship. I know that's a lost cause. I'm writing

because I want to be prepared for our inevitable divorce in the near future. Aside from therapy, which I know you'll recommend, what practical steps should I be taking now to protect myself and be best positioned for life after marriage? I'm looking forward to a dues of a sign-off by Gabe. Don't let me down. Yeah, don't let him down, Gabe. Yeah, no, he might stay with me for the next 20 years. Oh, Ouch. Things I, husband at his limit, though he knows that he's

complicit and sticking around and refusing to pivot from a wife who's been quite wicked. Now, it's trying to be explicit in it about shaking off this grimace, charting my own path without tipping it that I'm fit to file in a minute. That was a ride, man. Both the letter and the sign-off. I feel like I need a drink, man. I'm sweating over here. This was not even my marriage. So, okay, let me start by saying, I'm very sorry for what you and your kids have been through

these past 20 plus years. You know, better than anyone, your wife's trauma, which is significant, it sounds like it's done a real number on you. You've had to live with a person, understand a person, take care of a person who's just in a lot of pain, who's inflicted a lot of pain as well for two decades. I can only imagine the psychological tool that that's taken on you. It just got to be immense. Obviously, you've played a role in

exposing yourself to that pain. I know you know that. I know you have your reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that everything you've been through, the physical and emotional abuse of many kinds, the betrayal, the manipulation, the chaos. I'm honestly still reading from all this. It is heartbreaking. It's disturbing. It's unfair. So, okay, we could probably talk for hours about everything you've been through about your wife's trauma about the last 20 years. There's so much to discuss, but you're

“looking ahead. You want to know what practical things you should be doing right now to protect yourself”

and position yourself well for life on the other side of this separation. Yeah, and he's already taken away our favorite recommendation, so we can't talk about therapy. That's right. The low-hanging fruit has gone, which I have to go on record and say is absolutely one place you should be ASAP, yes, and your kids too, but that's their business at this point. You don't need me to tell you that you have some very real trauma of your own because of this marriage and some very important

things to look at, including these qualities that blinded you to your wife's dysfunction, that kept you sticking around through all this mistreatment. I really do believe, and this is the last thing I'll say about this. I really do believe that the best thing you could do to

a lot to process. You're about to go through a massive transition, and I think the end of your

marriage is going to bring up a lot of big questions and feelings and new challenges, and you're

“really going to want to have that space. Okay, so practical. First of all, you need to find a”

solid attorney. If it's true, your wife is already planning on leaving you, I don't know how messy this separation is going to get, but given everything you've shared about her personality, I'd go into the systeming that it's going to get very messy and very contentious just for the sake of being contentious. I have to imagine she's going to make everything more difficult than it has to be. I also think that because she controls all of your finances, which is a deliberate

move on her part, just dividing your assets is probably going to be a cluster. Dude, she's probably going to rage at you through her attorney. She's going to drive her own attorney insane, mark my words. She'll fire at least one, or one of them will quit on her, and that'll drag out the process. I don't mean to stress you out even more, but I could totally see that happening. So I'd go into this assuming that your divorce is going to be quite difficult. I would also find an attorney who

understands the nuances here and who's ready and willing to fight, you need excellent representation. So honestly, if your mind's already made up, I would probably start reaching out to lawyers now, book some consults, share your story with them, tell them your goals, your interest in this divorce, ask them what they think is likely to happen based on what they've seen. And I would ask them, should I be documenting anything right now? What sorts of stuff? What financial steps

can I legally take now? How might the court view financial control, emotional abuse? What risks do I face if she escalates these self-harmed threats? Then start taking their advice now. That way,

when one of you finally says, "our item leaving, your 12 steps ahead." I know that feels

kind of mocky-evalient, but I think you owe it to yourself to protect yourself in this way. Sound advice, the other thing I would be doing is rebuilding your relationships with your

“friends and family. I think that's so important. Read my mind, Gabe. He needs support.”

He needs community. The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you're very isolated, obviously from your parents, but also I imagine from a lot of other good people in your life. Well, she made the move away, remember, which I assume was part of her strategy. So you're also physically far from people who could be showing up for you. That's not an accident. It sounds like the closest people in his life are probably his kids, which is wonderful,

and I would not be surprised if they're bonded through all of this, but there's probably kind of like an us against mom thing, even if she was a good mom to them. They're all he has, and yeah, that's better than the alternative, but that also might have kept them from building relationships with other people outside of the immediate family. So I would start rebuilding these ties, and it might take some time, especially with your parents who I assume are probably

pretty concerned and perhaps a bit hurt that you chose your wife over them when it sounds like they were absolutely right in trying to protect you. You said that you could have more interaction with them if you wanted to, so that gives me hope that they are just waiting for you to reach out and say, hey, can we try again? And if you're planning on separating, then I assume you don't have as much of an incentive to avoid the battle at home by being in touch with them, but if it's going to take

months or even years to reconnect and repair with them, I would definitely start that process now. And that goes for anyone else in your life, extended family, friends, colleagues, you might have to go through a phase where you guys talk about all of this, where you work through any conflicts or injuries that have resulted from pulling away like this. I wouldn't wait until you separate

and then start doing that work. First of all, I think that's going to send maybe not the best

signal to these people and be. It takes time, so I would do that work now, see how it plays out,

“heal whatever you need to heal so that you have this love and support you need in place when you need it.”

Dude, 100%. This is a version of dig in the well before you get thirsty, emotionally thirsty. Totally. Psycho spirits really parched. That's right. For you get that cognitive cotton mouth. Exactly. I would also start making sure you're financially stable, especially since you don't control your assets. This is alarming for me. So you little thought experiment here. Imagine you get separated next week. Picture the worst case scenario,

right? She goes nuclear. She changes your bank password. She takes your name off the account. She drains the accounts and puts them somewhere else. You can't access your retirement, your brokerage. You can't go to an ATM. You don't have petty cash. What would you do? Think about that, then work backward. Obviously, you need to talk to your attorney about how to do this in a legally compliant way. You don't want it to look like you're moving money around in a way that's not appropriate.

But you might want to consider opening a personal bank account in your own name, quietly setting some money aside, opening a credit card in your own name. Stuff like that. So you have some lifelines and a safety net. And if you're thinking like, oh my god, I can't alert her to this because she's going to get the mail. Go to the UPS store or whatever and get a box and have that stuff sent there because if you end up leaving the house, what your mail is going there now. Like,

you should have an address where you can pick this stuff up. So just stuff like that. So you got lifelines. You got a safety net. I would also start gathering every financial record that you can tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, insurance policies, titles for the house and the

passport, your social security card, all that good stuff. Store copies of all that in Dropbox or Google or I Cloud or somewhere secure that she cannot access and external hard drive. I mean, that's way less secure. But whatever, you want to have visibility into the marital finances before things become adversarial. That way, you know, she can't go a drain in account and then say, oh,

the joint brokerage, no, that never existed or, you know, I don't know what you're talking about or

now that was mine. That was never his. His name was never on there or just vastly understate her earnings or savings or property or overstate her expenses or sticky with credit card bills,

“stuff like that. All that stuff happens when things get messy. This is really crucial. Just like a”

victim of domestic abuse, well, well, which you are a lot of your power and independence depends on your financial security. So that really, it has to be a priority. I'm still thinking about his kids. They're probably going to be a big support for him. Maybe his only support for better or worse. And despite what he said about sparing them for most of his and his wife's dysfunction. Yeah, I don't fully buy that by the way. I just, I don't. Sorry. I'm not sure I do either. I mean,

look, maybe they shielded them from most of it. And, you know, she attacks him. She doesn't attack the kids, whatever. And if so, that's great news. But there's no way you grow up in the same house with a mom like this. You see how she treats your dad. You see how she's dealt with her own pain. And you're not affected by it. I don't know. I know that he's acknowledging that. I'm just appreciating what a number she has probably done on their kids as well. I'm struggling to understand

how she could have been a good mother to them when she's like this. But he did say her stuff is almost exclusively directed at him. She's been a good mom to the kids, apparently. I really, really hope that's true. But even if it is true, that's still awful for kids to win this or just like sense in the house. Mom and dad are not okay. Something is not right here.

I have some strong feelings about the whole I vowed never to walk out on my kids the way my dad

walked out on me thing. Yeah, I do too. I have to say. Like, look, I appreciate where he's coming from. This is a big reason he stayed. That was obviously a huge wound for him. He doesn't want to recreate it with his own kids. Right. But that didn't prevent all the damage from being done. The problem was getting married to her and the first place, not divorcing her when he realized things were this bad. Exactly. And how much more pain and chaos did he subject himself and his

kids do by staying? I understand the logic. Okay. I just, I don't want to, she's saying I don't want to do to my kids what my dad did to me. But I don't understand how it holds up when you really consider the consequences. There's no perfect outcome when you break up a family. But sometimes staying together really is worse for everyone involved. And that has to be true in this case.

Well, you know, that's up to him to decide and I understand that he doesn't want us to like

therapists him too much. But I have to imagine that not growing up with a father. Yeah. That

“informed this decision to stick around. But I think it also must have played some kind of role”

and why he ended up with this particular wife and why he struggles to stand up to her and protect himself. A hundred percent man. When he shared that, my heart broke a little, this is his trauma. It sounds like on a dress. And when this stuff goes on a dress, it can lead you to some pretty dangerous situations. He knows he's in this situation because he refused to leave. But then he said that wasn't still as worth it. And I guess I'm with you. I'm just I'm not entirely sure about them. I'd love to

ask him that question again in six months or a year or five years. Yeah. See if it's still true. Maybe it is for him or maybe when he's out, he sees what he's been through. He'd be like, I cannot believe I stuck around. That's my bet. I guess it depends on how wet he is to the idea of keeping the family together at all costs. But anyway, my point of bringing up the kids was just now that there are adults, I would maybe think about having some very open conversations with them about what the last 20

years have been like, you know, give them space to talk about mom and to talk about her honestly and share what their childhood was like and how they're feeling these days, what they make of all of this. If they have any thoughts or feelings about her or the marriage, even about you, our friend here, which is hard to bear. I know, but might be very liberating and healing for them to be able to share with you. So one thing you can do to set yourself up well for life after

separation is really make sure that you and your kids are in a good place and make it safe for them to talk to you about what this has been like because it sounds like they're going to be very important people to you when you go through this transition. They can't be the only people and there are certain things that you probably should not bring to your kids while you go through a divorce,

“but starting these conversations could be a game changer for all of you. I think it could also”

really help you guys stay close through all of this and you guys all deserve that. Totally a great get. The last thing I want to say is, as you can tell, we both feel that you've co-created the situation and enabled your wife and various ways and I know you know that, but no one deserves to go through what you've been through. Maybe the most difficult detail you've shared with us in some ways is the threats to commit suicide to get you to do what she wants. I just I found that incredibly

disturbing. It's incredibly unfair and I genuinely worry about the impact that this has had on you.

a beat and consider if you really want to play along. And I would encourage you to look into other

“responses, crisis lines, emergency services, mental health professionals or nothing and just see what”

happens. I know that sounds terrible, but I would not give in and play along again. Also, Dark Jordan peaking out if she does end up in an ER or the police do a wellness check and she gets put on an involuntary hold or she has to enter a facility or something, that could become useful in divorce proceedings. I'm not telling you to do any of these in order to screw her over, not explicitly anyway. But if she's saying, I'm going to kill myself if you don't stay home more or

whatever. And you're like, okay, I hear you that you intend to hurt yourself. I'm calling 911. And there, if there are consequences attached to that, that is on her dude. She said it.

She's doing this to herself. But my main point is, I would start asserting yourself appropriately here

and start looking for small ways to release these roles your wife has put you in, especially this one of keeping her alive and keeping her stable. It must be exhausting and beyond stressful to maintain. And that's going to have to end eventually. You might as well start taking steps towards that now. Separating is not going to be easy, but it is going to be life-changing, liberating, clarifying, monumental. I am genuinely excited for you. So take good care of yourself, man, start

putting bricks in this wall, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Ben Jordan and our skeptical Sunday on water filters if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. It's the circle of people I

know like and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself. And our six-minute

networking course, the course is free. It's not gross. It's not Shmoosey. You can find it on the thinkific platform at six-minute networking.com. Drills take a few minutes a day, dig that well before you get thirsty folks, build relationships before you need them. You can find it all for free at six-minute networking.com. Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also

connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jason Sanderson, Robert Fogat, Ian Beard, Tata Sadlaskas, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer

“consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember,”

we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you will apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. One day, the encryption protecting your bank account medical records and private messages will simply stop working, not because of a hack, but because computers get smart enough to break it

instantly. The scary part, that day is already being planned for and your data may already be saved for later. Quantum computers actually are a real step in evolution in the way that everybody knows about a binary state, zeros and ones on and off. That was and is the technology for the classic computers today. We've improved technologically much faster than we have been able to as a society come up with ways to prevent the harm. Quantum computers can lead to what's called

Q-Day or I prefer to call it digital disaster day, D-Day, too. Because that's the day when all the digital secrets that the normal computers can't crack through encryption are going to be cracked by quantum computers and that is really what gets people's attention. Combine that with AI and boy, we've really got a one-two punch that can make humanity take these giant technological leaves that we had no idea could possibly happen and that's one of the big fears is AI that a lot

of people are worried about. Now, quantum's coming around the corner, it makes it even twice as scary. It's a huge mix bag of possibilities for everybody that are great and also danger, you know, terminator level, existential problems. All the doomsday prepers actually are on this something.

“If this does happen in the next few years, we're really going to be in big trouble. That's why I'm”

sort of an evangelist out there trying to speak on it and let people know this is a major problem. We can't just stick our head in the sand. To hear from quantum expert John Young on what Q-Day is, why it matters now, and what happens when our digital security hits its expiration date, check out episode 1261 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Quick rake to put you onto another show you should be listening to. If you enjoyed my interview with

Havier Leva about romance scams back on episode 1195, you'll want to check out his podcast Pretend. Havier is an investigative journalist who lives in the world of lies, manipulation and deception, and but he's still a nice guy. And on Pretend, he doesn't just tell these stories, he gets inside them. He talks directly to scammers, cult leaders, and the people they've conned. He just says a way of getting them to reveal things that I'll make you go away. Okay,

victims turned out to be the stalkers, a true crime podcaster accused of harassing victims for content.

“No, it's not him. And Havier is spending a day with a cult leader. Yes, including an exorcism,”

that must have been a fun afternoon. Plus he digs into the real Frank Abignail from Catch Me If You Can.

Let's just say the movie took some liberties. Pretend has been featured on Netflix's Don't Pick Up

“The Phone, Spotify Tagged It as a breakout hit. And it's consistently up there with the top true”

crime shows. Search Pretend, wherever you get your podcasts.