1334: Justin Garcia | Why We Live, Cheat, Break, and Die for Love

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Today we're talking with Dr. Justin Garcia, evolutionary biologist, sex researcher, professor at Indiana University, and chief scientific advisor to match.com as well as author of the intimate animal, the science of sex, fidelity, and why we live and die for love. And we're starting a place that sounds like a deleted scene from a bachelor party documentary, a legal brothel outside Las Vegas.

This is there as a scientist, of course, looking at a menu of sexual services and the most expensive thing on the menu 20 granted up, doesn't necessarily include sex. It's the girlfriend experience, cuddling attention, the feeling of being wanted, a very expensive simulation of someone looking at you like you didn't just spend a mortgage payment or 10 to be held by a stranger, which raises a deeply uncomfortable question.

What are human beings actually chasing?

In this episode, we'll get into why humans are built for pair bonds, but not always

built for effortless sexual monogamy, why dating apps can make you feel like you're shopping for humans during a carbon monoxide leak, why falling in love can look suspiciously like anxiety with better lighting, why passion dies and long-term relationships and why it doesn't have to, and why heartbreak can feel less like sadness and more like your brain going through withdrawal from a person who still owes you a hoodie.

So, if you've ever wondered whether you want sex, love, validation, novelty, safety, revenge, a text back or just someone to hold your hand while you slowly become your parents, this once for you. Here we go with Dr. Justin Garcia. Justin, I want to start in the least romantic place imaginable, which is a legal brothel

outside of Las Vegas, and you're there for science, just to clarify that for everyone.

“Yeah, staring at, I don't know, did they have a menu of services?”

That's so awkward, I guess, but, well, for me, it would be, I don't know. And the most expensive thing on the menu, which is like 20 grand or something, is what? This girlfriend experience, I don't even, I guess, I don't really know what any of this stuff is. So, tell me what that is, I don't, girl, she just pretends to like you, I thought they

all did that. I don't know. Yeah. Well, in some ways, they do. That's sort of what's interesting about, okay, when you go to these venues, so there

was an easel and main lobby, and there's different things. And some of the things are what you would expect in a legal brothel. Yeah. There's an oil massage, there's two women, there's kink and different fetish rooms, but the most expensive thing, you go through that list and what people were willing to spend

the most money on in the legal brothel was this date, this girlfriend experience, and you get a bottle of champagne, actually, I think you got two bottles of champagne, you could have a meal, you were at a table. So, you could choose the leather mattress and covered an oil, but if you wanted to really spend a lot of money, you pick the bistro table and you sat down and acted like it was

a date. Now, you're right. The part of, for many people, is this feeling of connected, we did a study, years ago, and a strip club we were taking bio metrics and someone turned to me and said, I think she really likes me.

Well, that's, it's supposed to feel that way, but you're right, this idea that couching our sexual experiences in this date, what feels like a date or that you're having a deeper

“connection, that's what people were so driven for, that's what they were willing to spend”

the most money on. That, to me, is, I mean, there's a lot of things that are surprising about this. For example, I'm pretty sure that if you don't want the sex, you can take a woman out to dinner for free any time that you offer to do that. You just have to use one of those apps where you're guaranteed to sort of, I mean, isn't

that one of the chief complaints about dating apps, like I'm getting played by women all they want to do is they, we go out for this nice meal and we have a great conversation that goes me. That's what this is, except maybe, you know, there's some sex at the end, the legal brothel, but you got to go out to outside of Las Vegas, it's a little bit far for most people.

So it's kind of surprising.

You could pay somebody to like you for the cost of a meal 20 grand is a lot of dinner dates where they go to you afterward. I mean, that's like hungry. But, right? Yeah.

And what I remember when I was dating, I just like love, just to get out, and just to connect, just to be.

“And I think you really hit on what the issue, though, is it's for so many people, it's”

that combination of saying, well, I want to know that I'm going to go out to dinner, but there's something sexual, physical, or I want to have something sexual, physical, but also feel like I'm connecting. And it's trying to get both the sort of love and sex, the best of both worlds. That's where people were struggling and that's where people were willing to spend.

So it's a simulation of being wanted, basically. That's wild. And people get into it. I mean, you really can, I mean, if you're across the table from someone and you're making eye contact and they're complimenting you and you feel, it is a simulation, but you can

feel a lot of those things that you would in a relationship. I wonder, and we'll get to this later. But I wonder if AI is going to take it bite out of that, because it's going to be a lot cheaper. And people will go, well, AI is totally fake.

I'm pretty sure she's also acting when she pretends to laugh at all your jokes during this dinner that you've paid 20 grand for. I mean, it's like, what's the difference? You still have to suspend disbelief or whatever the term is in order to make it feel real enough.

Like, you're like, oh, she really likes me.

But then it's like, yeah, but I also paid 20 grand and she would never do this for free.

So that's not really what's going on here. You know, and she said she had a heart out at eight, because there's another guy doing the exact same thing. And she has to eat again, which is, you know, now how the logistics of that work. I guess I don't know.

And so much of relationships are what we call make special, wanting to feel like something special. You want to know when you complimented my blue eyes or you're complimenting someone else's blows when you compliment my laugh or you're complimenting someone else's left. You want to have, it's why we often do things like romantic baby talk.

And we do all these things in relationships. And they're often about something unique about a couple or relationship. But you nailed it when we have this idea that, you know, you're doing that with everyone else. And when that happens in a real relationship when you're like, wait, you say that to the other

boys who went to that with the other girls, it could feel like the world's crashing. Yeah. Man. So why open a book on love and intimacy and a brothel, though, man, you got to defend that choice.

I, it was funny because I went back and forth on what story to open with. And I found that one, and part because for me, it was so interesting. So we were initially in Las Vegas collecting hormone samples in the legal sex club. I was in a different kind of angle, it was collecting testosterone and estrogen samples. How do you wait, how do you say that space because I'm guessing you're not like, hey, let me

jabbing this needle into you while you're, I don't know, it is sex club. That's like, yeah. That's a level of kink that they only allow in Europe is from what I understand. Yeah. It was, it was, we're looking at salivary levels, and actually funny you say that the title

of the academic article we published from it was like, "Salivary testosterone, an extra dial, following sexual activity and non-laboratory stuff. I was calling you to say that again." Yeah. I'm calling him.

I was like, "Really?" Just say, "Ironicly." The club was a fake laboratory. So yeah. It was my favorite method section, though.

Erode samples were collected between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and people think that we know a lot about what happens to testosterone and estrogens, the sex steroids, with sexual activity, but there's a lot of disagreement in the academic literature on it, particularly the role

“of estrogens, which might be more important for fertility and egg implantation and not”

a direct sexual response. So we were doing a study about that. That's what brought me to Vegas. And then we said, "Well, we're here where there's sexologists, we should go to the legal brothels that are an hour out in the desert. My whole career, I've been asking questions

about intersections of blood and sex. I used to write a lot more about hookup culture and how people, when they were having casual sex, they were spending the night and cuddling or it was turning into a romantic relationship.

So I've always been interested in that tension.

But we went out to this legal brothel and we get this tour and I was really just dobsmacked by that people were spending that much money on this date-like experience that typically involved sex, but not always. So partly I opened the intimate animal, the book with that story, because for me it was this moment of just, wow, it made sense.

It made theoretical sense to me, but just, wow, this is what's going on. And this is what people are really willing to put their money behind. Yeah, this is, for me, I guess there's a lot of questions that I have about this. What did it tell you that the most expensive sex product didn't necessarily center around sex.

When you say people are buying intimacy, I guess then what are they buying, attention, touch, safety, fantasies, sex. I mean, it's all, it's not quite the same thing people imagine when they think legal brothel. At least for me. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

“And when I use the word intimacy and throughout the book and a lot of our work, I think”

of intimacy as, not a euphemism for sex, as sexologists, we don't like euphemisms. But really thinking about being seen and heard and known. So it's not just that you've connected to someone, but that you feel a connection to them, that you can look at them across the room and kind of understand what they're thinking, or what they're wanting, and trying to build that.

And now when you're sitting across the table from the sex worker, they're chittered joke before they're doing a good job of trying to make you feel that way, yeah, that is. It is psychological safety, it's psychological connection.

for a lot of people. But this idea of couching it in a relational context, that's what

was most enticing to so many people, at least based on what they're willing to spend. 20 grand. I mean, there's a zero on the end of that that I didn't think was going to be there for something like this. I don't know, that's just entirely, it's just so expensive.

But it tells me, since they price according to the market and people are paying that all

“the time, that shows you how valuable these feelings are, right?”

Because if you're just paying for sex, that's really great, like Las Vegas strip sex, which I know is illegal. But I assume that that's cheap. I don't know. There's just a lot of competition.

It's in the last very long, probably, right? And it's like, you're drunk and everything. It seems to me, like I said before, you could probably get a real girlfriend for less than 20k for the weekend or whatever, or maybe am I delusional or if I've been lucky in the past that I haven't had to pay for a companion ship, that pricing just seems astronomical.

And it seems like if you're loaded enough to drop 20k on entertainment for a night,

you could probably just impress somebody who's kind of a paid-a-play kind of person anyway. Now, what's interesting about that is that in some of those cases, they are for prolonged period. So in this particular case, it's brothel. You go there.

You don't most of the women don't leave with you. But it is when we look around and in some of our own studies and we look in different places. We talk about sex tourism, for instance, in Southeast Asia or Thailand. And often what happens in those contexts are, let's say you're in the parts of Bangkok

where there's sex work and sex tourism, you might meet a heterosexual man, might meet a woman and they'll go back to your hotel with you. But really what you're doing is picking someone up for a few nights. And often they'll say, okay, what time is dinner tomorrow? And what are we going to do tomorrow?

And you might in the Google clubs, which is what we see in Bangkok, you might go to the Google clubs made a sex worker, but you don't go straight to your hotel, I'm going to take you to billiards before we go back to your hotel. Let's go get a bite to eat before we go back to your hotel. Now, you're paying for her, typically, but it's to make it an experience and we, there's

a lot of cases of people who then, it's almost kind of romance tourism. And people will say, well, I went to the Google club and I was with this woman for five nights. Look, I've been to Thailand with my friends. My brother used to live there.

And I remember my friends who were much scarier than me because they worked on boats. Okay, so they were like sailors and I was like, guys, just so you know, I'll play it long, but I'm not going to play it long, you know what I mean? And they're like, that's fine. That's not how this works.

It's pretty flexible here. And I was like, well, you've been here before. And I remember going and meeting the girls and they would be like, yeah, what do you want to do? And I'm like, I'm going to sleep in my bed and they're like, okay, but do you want to go swimming?

And I was like, actually, that sounds great. And I just remember like, hanging out with them in their girls. And then when it was time for them to like go do boom boom. And I was like, well, I don't want my, you know what to fall off, but you're very nice. So we can hang out.

Like, we basically just hung out and she just went back to wherever she went back to.

“And then I remember the second night she was like, can I sleep on the floor?”

Cause you have air conditioning. And I felt really, really bad for her. I felt like, oh my god, the power imbalance was something I couldn't really deal with when it hits you in the face like that. That's really like hard to be buying food and drinks and stuff.

Yeah, but I didn't tell. It was so cheap. I just felt like it was like, hang out with a friend who didn't have enough money to hang out. You're just like, whatever.

I mean, I didn't have to. She didn't actually even. So here's the thing. Those guys were telling me what they were paying because they were getting sexual services from these women.

This is like 15, 20 years ago. So I don't remember the pricing, but like the girl that I had talked, she didn't even seem to care about that. She was more concerned with sleep, like I said, sleeping. They are conditioning.

She wanted to use the shower that I had and she wanted to eat. Actually, that was one of the most, what do you call it? Like a wake up call where you're like, this is really gross. The fact that they don't have it of money to eat and that they just want to sleep in the AC is like horrifying to me.

This is going into direction I didn't expect it to, but I think this anecdote is interesting because I think a lot of people would argue, and we should do a show just about sex work in general, that the power imbalance is kind of crazy when it comes to this stuff. Now that if you're paying 20 grand in the person's working legally in that health care outside of Las Vegas, it's a little different than somebody who's a different.

Exactly. You can talk to these girls. I'm like, why do you do this? This is horrible and probably not good for you, and she's like, my grandpa's sick and I need to buy medicine.

And I was like, that could be a sob story, or it could actually be close to the truth. And I don't really want to know which one it is. Yeah. When we were in the legal broth of a woman giving us a tour, had been a flight attendant and then had lost her job during the economic crash, but she was married to two kids.

And there was a part of her whole experience that was her husband who it she did. But what goes on in the legal brothels in the States is a doctor comes on Sunday, does the STI checks, and your card is good for two weeks. But if you leave the facilities for more than a certain amount of time, like an hour, your card expires.

“So you have to stay within the facility and seemingly it's to protect everyone because”

then you make sure that they don't pick up an STI since they've been checked. But the other side to it to your point, though, like complicated power politics and sex

to a motel or to someone's house and make some money and cut the house out.

Yeah. Think about, wow, that's you're not imprisoning them because they can leave whenever they want, but then they can't work. So you kind of are, yeah, I'm like complicated power, I'm just going to. Uh, I don't, oh, that's really uncomfortable.

Yeah, I mean, like I said, after that, I was just kind of like how do people look? I try not to be judging, but when the power and balance is that much, like when I hear about the Southeast Asia sex tourism stuff, I was just like, you should Google that before you guys do that, you know, like that's not going to be, if you have a conscience, that's not going to be as fun as you probably think it is.

Yeah, more going non-behind the party. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. So for the listener who says, come on, people just want sex, this girlfriend experience thing is just a way for them to delude themselves into thinking that they're not paying

for it. What are they missing?

“I mean, I think that when we say delude or weren't, and you're right, that's what people”

say. Let's really unpack what that is and when people are trying to experience what I see in a lot of my work is that people are trying to find ways to navigate both their sexual desires and their romantic desires. It was the same thing that, as I said earlier, I worked on hookup culture in casual sex.

We would see high rates of people who said, I had a one night stand, but I stayed the night, and I engaged in eye gazing, and we cut old all night, and it's like, well, that's not the deal. There's no strings attached sex, aren't you? You're just going to go home from the club and go home, or we found one in three people

had a hookup that turned into a romantic relationship. We found 51% of men and women, no gender difference, engaged in casual sex, hoping it would turn into a romantic relationship. So that tells me that when we peel back a little bit of the layers when we're looking at people's romantic behaviors and sexual behaviors, what I see in our studies, I mean,

what I'm looking for is the ways that people are trying to get a little bit of both that

“our romantic lives don't exist in isolation for my sexual desires, and our sexual interest”

often don't exist in isolation, even if you look at fantasies. I mean, the number one fantasy that most people have according to Justin Layman was working, or three sums, and most often, it's people in relationships, this same, my fantasy is my partner and I and one other person. So your romantic bond isn't your sexual fantasies, it's just your heading, it's a mother

novelty to it. So people are trying to navigate a space where they can feel both of those things are instincts, are evolutionary urges for both of those things.

I feel like anybody who says that their fantasy is a three sum to somebody who's never

actually tried to do that sounds more interesting than all my gosh. Yeah, I mean, look, so I've heard, et cetera, et cetera, but yeah, that's one of those things where like the logistics just ruined the whole thing, and then like, it's, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean, and you're hoping you're the one that's not forgotten, man, yeah, I mean, 20 plus

years ago, I'm 46 now, I was probably like just graduate, maybe I wasn't even graduated from law school at this point, I can't remember, but I would remember being so excited and then at the end, that was like, well, never doing that again, the ever, again, ever and wrecked, telling everyone that that was terrible, that was gone.

“Yeah, oh my gosh, that's like the peak sounds good on paper, life event, I think.”

So if you're out there in your 50 years old or 40 years older thinking, wow, I've never done this, it's not my bucket list, just, you've raised it right now, you are missing nothing. So where does our culture confuse maybe sexual access with emotional closeness? Hmm, well, I mean, part of the challenge is that they are related.

So we know, I mean, do you have sex with someone, you learn an awful lot about them. You learn, I mean, if they're my colleague Helen Fisher and I in our studies, we're still offensive. You learn if they're funny, if they're hygienic, if they're empathetic, if they're caring, but also you have a physiology of what happens with sexual activity.

We have dopamine activity with oxytocin activity, particularly if it's orgasmic sex, if it's good sex, you see a spike in oxytocin, these are bonding hormones, it's an or a peptide actually, that's of course, it was building a connection. So it can be hard to disentangle this idea that what's emotional and what's, I mean, when I teach sexuality course, the students would ask me all the time, well, how do you

know if it's a lover lust? And that's not really an easy question to answer, it's, we often hear people of these kind of quick, one liners when we really get into the science of it, it's really not that easy because there is a lot of overlap between what goes on in the brain and behaviorally and socially with sex, and what goes on in the brain, behaviorally socially with romantic

attachment. Now, when we talk about romantic love as a mechanism, there's different parts in a lot of theorists, psychologists, anthropologists, biologists, talk about these sort of triangle models or triarchic models about love, and that says there's this part that's lust that's sexual motivation, sex drive, there's a part that's this feeling of kind of passion and

romantic attraction, and then there's that friendship, that deep commitment.

So that tells us that they're always both there in romantic attachments, both the connection

and the sexual interest. Now, they wax and wane over time as those of us in long-term relationships or we were talking earlier about, you know, and you have kids, and you go through chapters of life where

want to have sex with my partner right now." That's not necessarily a problem, that's responding to the ecology, responding to our lives, and those moments can wax and wane. Not a problem if it doesn't persist forever, if it does, then it's a problem. Yeah, have you ever seen, I don't know if he's read it, but he ever seen the dead bedroom

subreddit? Are you familiar with read it at all?

It's basically just a little bit.

Yeah, okay. So it's got that you have like category discussion or a story. Well, some people don't even use it, right? Most people don't even use it, but there's a subreddit that's enormous, and it's called dead bedrooms, and I don't know if this is like an area for one of your students probably

to research, but basically it's a bunch of people venting or talking about strategies because they haven't basically had either not enough sex or no sex for just years. Some of these people are like, I'm on year 25 of a dead bedroom, and it's like kind of sad. And I don't want to say pathetic because it sounds pejorative, but these people are really hard up.

And then there's another one that was like, "Hi libido, community versus low libido." It's basically, "Hi libido versus low libido partners." A man or a woman will say something like they wanted, I don't know, five times a week, but their spouse wants it, wants a month, maybe, and that's if they're in like the perfect mood and have had three drinks, and it's for a day, and it's before 9 p.m.

After 7 p.m., you know what I mean? It's like, they get aroused every, I don't know, summer solstice, and the partners aroused every three hours or every day off something, and it's like, it screws everything up, man.

“The lesson I've taken just from voyeuristically reading those is, "Wow, do you need to”

make sure your stuff matches?"

But the problem is you can match just fine, and then somebody has a baby or like, get sick

or gets a lot of work stress, and then you don't match anymore, and that can persist for a while too from what I understand. Yeah, the technical term for that is sexual desire, discrepancy, and when we look at that, that can happen sometimes always in couples, but we also know that a lot of it has to do with how we think about our arousal, how we think about our sexual desire, and often

it's responsive. So, exactly, as you said, you're going through a really intense moment at work or in your personal life or with your health or with your family, many of us, men, women, all ages, we go through a season where you say sex isn't really a priority right now. That is adaptive.

I actually think that understanding the biology up, if you're really stressed, you shouldn't be wanting to mate all the time, because your body is in focusing on a different kind of response. I mean, there's a reason that too, because they'll don't make in front of a lion, right? When your physiology is in a threat response or a stress response, it's not conducive

to mating. It's conducive to connection. I mean, I'll often say we don't stop in a burning building to have a conversation.

You also typically don't stop for a kiss.

So, I guess all the exhibitionist gazelles are dead. Yeah. Well, a little bit. You bring that out. I glad you bring that up.

A little bit of stress. Like you're in your car and the park range might find you, okay, that could be exciting. But if you're in your car and the forest is on fire, you're like, let's get out of here. I don't really want the stuff. Yeah, it's a good idea.

A little bit of stress can be good. Remember when I was in the classroom years ago, students said, "Professor, why is sex in a car so like the best?" I remember thinking, "Well, it could be novelty, but also I'm both a six foot doll and speak for yourself."

Yeah, no kidding. That does not detract for me at all. Yeah. But a little bit of excitement can be, but when we are in a stress response or a threat response, that's a very different experience.

So that's our bodies adaptively responding to our ecology, our social ecology, our physical environment. That's part of the area of evolutionary story and it is everywhere in the world when we look up people's romantic and sexual lives.

“So we go through seasons, I think, that one way to think about it is that we want sex”

more or less. But the other part of that is that for a lot of people around us is responsive. So what can happen, what we see in the literature, is that people will go through a period. I was so stressed at work, we just sort of saw we had bed death, we stopped having sex.

But then, what do you do to cultivate it? So in our studies on passion and long-term couples, you do things like you like candles. You play music, you dim the light. It's not the particular type of candle or the particular type of music. It's the intentionality.

It's saying, "How do you build a mood for your sexual life?" Sex therapists recommend 30 minutes of foreplay for the average couple. Most people don't do that. We know that from the data. Most people aren't engaging at 30 minutes.

No kidding. Actually, once you have kids, it's like 30 minutes. Oh, it's going to happen. What are you doing there? This whole sex schedule was a 15-minute thing here, and we probably don't even have that

block. Yeah. Yeah. That counts parking the car in the garage beforehand. Right.

That's pretty talking. That's not a euphemism. Yeah, we did a study on the start of the pandemic, what we do here at the Kinsey Institute. We tried to ask the question, like the sex question in any particular moment. And when the pandemic happened, we said, "Okay, let's ask the sex and relationship

question." So we launched this multinational data collection at the start of COVID, and what we found is that overall sexual frequency had decreased masturbation and decreased, which suggested it wasn't just that I was afraid of kissing someone who had COVID.

“It was that our desires were because, I think, the world was on fire.”

Also, what are the kids doing Zoom school and your wife is working from home? What are you doing? We're doing Zoom school. Exactly. So we also found in that study one in five people tried something new.

I was like, "Okay, a lot of it was fantasies or talking for a time really talking to

But I remember a few months later interviewing a couple, and the woman said, "My husband and I started to having shower sex during the pandemic." And I thought, "You know where I'm going with this?" I thought, "That's great." That's exactly what we saw, one in five.

And she said, "It was the only time we had 10 minutes in the house by ourselves." Yeah. And it was like, "Okay, it still works. It matches with the data." But it was responding to that particular moment.

Yeah, I guess, while we have to adapt, or we would never, we wouldn't be here anymore.

Yeah. And need for intimacy, a biological drive. A lot of people say, "Oh, this is the same as sleep, hunger." It's the same kind of thing. And other people will say, especially low libido people will say, "That's ridiculous.

You're a moron, for thinking that."

“But where does it fall in the human need hierarchy?”

Yeah. So the actual term sex drive, if we're going to get a technical, is sometimes contested among scientists. So some scientists don't love to use the term sex drive because the idea, as you're saying, is it like water and food, if I don't get sex, am I going to explode or die and know?

Right. Evolution is tend to use the term sex drive a little bit more because of the idea that sexual reproduction, well, we could talk about modern technologies. But for the most part, sexual reproduction is important for getting genes into the next generation. So if we're taking evolutionary lens, then we would say, "Yes, it's a drive."

Some people call it a motivational response system, different kind of technical arguments. But I would say what my argument was in my work and in the intamin animal and my frame of thinking about this is we have two drives, and they often are in parallel, but at times are competing. We have a lot of drives, but when it comes to our intimate lives, there's one, four, sex,

and that could look a lot of different ways. It doesn't tell us about frequency or intensity, but we are motivated for that feeling of sex or autosism in our lives. Maybe it's, we experience it with ourselves, maybe with others. How we satiate that drive a lot of different ways, a lot of different answers, but we're

also motivated for deep intimate connection. And the broad sense, we talk about a psychological phenomenon called the need to belong, that humans want to feel connected to something. I think that explains a lot of what we see politically, and socially, we want to feel like we're part of something.

Now as a social primate, our evolutionary story, that intimacy connection, feeling really close to someone, before talking about primates, what I'm talking about, looking and grooming behavior. And pair bonds, and romantic relationships, we talk about things like mutual territory defense, mutual nest building, mutual raising of offspring.

Doesn't mean you have to have kids.

“Doesn't mean you have to have a certain frequency of sex.”

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“What would you say to somebody who has maybe plenty of sex, but still feels profoundly lonely?”

Because I think there's a ton of guy, well, ton of people like that, what in my 20s and 30s? I knew a lot of guys like that. Especially when I lived in New York, for example, you'd meet these guys that would go out and meet women.

I don't know, three or four nights a week and they had this crazy rotation and I remember feeling like really envious of some of these guys, but then you realized, oh, you can't actually hold a relationship. You're pretending you're enjoying this and having fun. The fact that you literally cannot, they will not see you again because you're blowing

it. Right? Every time you like someone, they realize you're kind of a creep and then you fill it with more women. It's not going to work for you.

These people are profoundly lonely, but I've never met anybody who had as many women as

them, for example. It's crazy. Yeah. I remember we were going to do a study on athletes once in this division, one athlete made it come and that his sexual life was great.

Basically, I mean, there were times that he was on the road and like, women would go be at the hotel waiting for him when he got back. And at times actually struggled with it, because sometimes he's like, I'm just exhausted, but there's like a woman at the hotel and I feel the need to play the part. But what he really wanted was like, it would be cool to have someone who, like,

could make me dinner. We could were just like hang out and like on pajamas and watch a show and at the home cooked meal. And that desire to have something a little bit deeper, a meaningful feel that sense of intimacy.

The example that you years are, I'm using, we know that people can have that where they may be seeing like they're getting some aspect, but they still have this psychological loneliness. And psychological loneliness is as bad for your health as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day running to the literature.

And the profound question for me is, how is it that there are people, a lot of people on a lot of different ways that can have the sense of psychological loneliness even when they're not physically alone. And that's the example that you're giving that is about the depth of our relationships.

“I think part of what we see is, okay, you may be you're going out with different people”

every night, maybe having sex with them sometimes, but you feel connected to that person. Do you feel like you were back to what we defined intimacy as, do you feel seen and heard and known? Do you feel like that person would take you to a hospital if you needed something? Do you feel like they really psychiatrists talk about, be wanting to be witnessed?

Do you feel witnessed at all with this person? We need both of that and that often too often, I think in a lot of people's lives and we see this especially with young people that you kind of sacrifice one for the other. You say, okay, well, I'm going to get the sex or okay, I'm going to just be around friends, but then not having to be this more romantic connection.

And what we see in study after study is that's not fulfilling. People still, they don't feel satisfied romantically sexually socially of trying to find that combination. I think one thing that's interesting for me is I know a lot of athletes now that are, I don't know, they're 40s or late 30s.

They're retired from the NFL or whatever sport that they played. And they are the ones who are like, oh man, I'm so glad that I found my wife and had kids. So I just found it interesting because I remember hearing their stories before and being like,

oh my gosh, you're never going to want to give up this life, but once they found the person

that could have felt scratched, take those boxes or whatever, they never looked back, which I found interesting because I thought, oh man, you're going to be with one person, you know, LOL buddy. Yeah. And they couldn't wait to make that transition.

I thought that was quite fascinating. Yeah. Because if you're a 20-something-year-old guy, 30-something-year-old guy, and your buddies on the New England Patriots, you know, like, you would trade lives in one second with that person, but then also like, maybe not really.

Yeah. When do you get down to it? You know, one of the things we find in our big singles in America study that we do with match.com every year, we collect the sample of 5,000 US singles with my colleague Amanda Gasselman, here at the Kinsey Institute, and we ask, what is the thing that people want

most in a relationship? This is a sample of national, it's a demographic representative sample of single adults. The number one thing men and women want in a partner is someone they can trust and confide in. It's someone who's there to pick you up when you fall, someone that you feel, I mean, trust

“is really about, are they going to be there to weather storms with me?”

And I think you're right. I think when we really take a look at, on the one hand, we could say, okay, who are the celebrities? Who are the athletes who have, you know, unlimited sexual access? But when you look a little bit deeper, what are the people who are really successful?

What are a lot of them want and need? It's that they have someone who's there to pick them up with, they fall, they help support them, the boy, I mean, that to disclose too much, you and I are both lucky. We have partners who are in the background and uplifting our lives. And that's what you see a lot in cases.

And I think we tend to focus too much on, oh, the athlete has got the new girlfriend every week. They're tend to be isolated cases when you really look around at how people are structuring their social lives and what success looks like, whether it's reproductive success as an evolutionist would count it, whether that's longevity, whether that's health and well-being

and low mortality, low disease, that's a story about intimate connections that are supporting

So how does somebody know if they're chasing intimacy or just chasing some kind of dopamine

hit? It's got to be pretty hard, I think for younger people, especially it's harder to separate sexual release from validation, from novelty, from, I don't know, emotional, safety or relief from loneliness in some other way. That's a tough audit.

Yeah. And it's partly because we don't have really great sexual literacies to turn into Dr. Ruth West heimer used to use. Right, we don't. We don't really know how to talk about sex and love and relationships and feelings.

We published a study fairly recently that 44% of adults in the United States, this is an adult sample said, if they had just had a little bit more education around sex, they'd have healthier and happier relationships today. That's a lot. Nearly half of people say, "Yeah, I just wish I had some information."

So we do know that we contend to pursue them and kind of get confused. The challenge can be that, yeah, pursuing love, you get to dopamine hit, pursuing sex, you get to dopamine hit, so you could get that physiology.

“And I think the challenge that we see is that I'm pausing because I'm just trying to remember”

the numbers.

We were looking at some data about second dates, I'm a big advocate as I wrote about

in the book, but I'm an advocate for second dates because I think there's a lot that they can do. We found in our studies that an national sample, about 70% of people have become attracted to someone that they initially didn't think they could be. That's a pretty high number, seven out of ten people.

So we walk around with this idea that if you're attracted to someone that that's the information that you just know, you have this insight, that tends to be our sort of sex drive, really. With you see someone and you're like, "I have to have them," it tends to be really a sexual motivation.

But when you're looking for a relationship, when you're swiping on an app, when you let that guide, your decision making, you're forgetting that in real time in the real world, 70% of the people around you have fallen in love with someone that they weren't initially attracted to. That's a reminder that feeling connected takes time, it takes second looks, third looks,

fourth looks, it takes having a conversation to see if it's someone you could trust and could fight in, which was everything they told us they were looking for. Right. I got to ask you, I don't know how you're going to answer this. You work for match.com, I mean, don't y'all own like Tinder and stuff in a bunch of apps

where people go, nah, based on nothing but a photo and whatever they're feeling in the moment. I remember friends, I met my wife, who was my girlfriend, of course, before she was my wife, right when Tinder came out. So I had downloaded it and I had it for maybe a week and that was like, I don't need this anymore.

You know, good work. I remember my friends were using it, of course. And we would be eating at Crif Dog or whatever and they'd be swiping and they would drop a little jalapeno off their hot dog onto the napkin and they would look down and be like, I'm just going to swipe because I've dropped my jalapeno and I'm done looking at this

“out of the corner of my, you know what I mean, that's how much thought went into this.”

Okay. I have whatever I zone. I remember there was a guy, what of my friends bought this, it was like a fake finger that would spin on a motor, just to swipe right on everybody because he's like, I don't care. I just want to see who matches with me and then did it and then we'll talk match might not

have loved the data that you found here that says, Hey, don't judge people based on their photos. Yeah. And it's, uh, it's interesting. So I'm a, our, and my role is scientific advisor to match and you're right,

match group owns most of the market share. They on Tinder. Yeah. So what my role is is really not about influencing the product. But how do we understand who are singles?

Who are more than 100 million US single adults and globally?

And what do we understand about their attitudes and behaviors? So what I like about that role is it's, I don't have a corporate vested interest, but my interest is really, let me understand what singles are and then they go to their thing. And in fact, to their credit, one of the things that a lot of the companies I've tried to do is, they've tried to change over time.

So in fact, if you use a lot of these dating apps now, they try to slow you down. So you'll see a picture profile picture profile. That's purpose because the research was arguing that it was data overload. It was cognitive overload, you're getting too much too fast and you weren't processing. You weren't really making meaningful decisions.

Or we knew that people wanted more stimuli for the brain. They wanted to know more about someone. They wanted to hear your voice, see your body language. So then they introduced short videos, or you could do video chats during the pandemic.

“That's what YouTube started as wasn't it?”

Just people uploading their dating videos and before that, there was a place near my house growing up. I can't remember what it was called, but you would book an appointment, go sit there, and you'd record your video, but then you would watch VHS tapes of all of these other people. And you can find some of those on YouTube now, where it's really funny.

It's like, yeah, what's up, my name's Kirk, I love golfing, I love traveling. Just looking for the right girl, like flips his hair back, you know, totally ridiculous in hilarious. Didn't you think like, wow, that guy is like 60 years old now, I wonder if he ever got married or found anyone.

I have a colleague in his 80s who met his wife through the personal ads years ago, right? And it's in a newspaper in the local newspaper and wow. So we know that online dating is still the most common way that singles in the United

anymore, buddy. I don't know if you. Yeah. What are you talking about? Rolling as I know, rolling as is, so we know that that's the most common way people

are meeting, but we also know people are struggling with it that they're reporting that they're his burnout or in challenges. Yeah.

“So I think the apps, the companies, a lot of them, at least, seem to be trying to innovate”

and address that, they overware of that. At the same time, we also see that matchmaking is on the rise. Like in person, actually, I was just at the global loved ones too, which is an annual conference of matchmakers and coaches to give a talk on like, what do we understand about the science of connection, but matchmaking for the, not everyone, but some of them, it's a particular

financial bracket to be in. I mean, some of these. Yes, I was going to bring this up. I know matchmakers, and I know that they've done pretty well. My friends, I kind of matchmaker, French, he introduced me to, I think at least two girls

that I dated long-ish term, you know, 10, 15 years ago, and my buddy met his wife through a matchmaker. But, finally enough, his wife was just friends with the matchmaker. But it was, these people, the good ones, they've really spent time with their clients, and the clients, I want this and this and this and this and this and it's like, yeah, but

I'm going to introduce you to this funny guy who doesn't check any of those boxes that also has a similar hobby with the diving thing and then those people, they click and it's like, I didn't know I even would like somebody like this. So they're going along with what your science shows, which is, just go out with them once and then do it again.

Just do it again. And again, that second date and then that third date where you talk about scuba and you think you're just going to be friends and then like dot dot dot, thanks for the wedding invitation. Because I thought this would work.

Because that all takes time.

“I mean, I think if you have a strong physiological response, like if you have a disgust”

response or a safety response or someone, okay, yeah, don't see that again. But for the most part, it's so much of what we want, both in our love life and our sex lives, it takes a little bit of time to uncover and that takes a second, third conversation.

And that take, I mean, we're also always everyone's a little awkward on a first date.

You don't know what to say. Your little anxious. Yeah, but taking that time, the data tells us, really helps us explore. And the other part of that, what you said, Jordan, I love is a good reminder that part of what happens when we have a lot of choices is we all have these long lists.

We say, here are the 30 things I want in my next date and my partner or maybe what I want in my current partner is the 30 ways I want them to change. So we can, like with that. Yeah, yeah. And so what we, the only reason we do that and in part, it has to do with the apps.

It also has to just do it the world, the internet world we're in today. We have a sense of an unlimited resource. And in fact, animals do the same thing. If you put a rabbit in a patch of carrots, if there's all tonic carrots, they're only going to eat the ones that are perfect.

And what happens is, well, we're on the mating market. And we have a sense of an unlimited resource. You go on a date with someone who says, well, they were great, but why they hold their fork like that. I'm going to get back on the app.

I'm going to find someone who doesn't hold their fork like that. Or yeah, you hit 25 of the things on my list, but I can find someone who hits 30 of the things on my list. I'm going to go back on the app. So we live in this world of chasing this idea that someone out there is perfect.

Someone out there has everything that they probably don't. So you just spend years miserable, constantly finding someone who you don't like how they hold their fork or whatever it is. As opposed to saying, well, what matchmakers help people do is say, let's boil down to like the two or three things that are really important to you.

I can find you someone who has those two or three things, everything else is noise for now. That I find interesting. Have you seen that video? This was viral probably a couple of months ago, but it was a matchmaker talking

on Zoom with a woman who was like, he's got to be this way. He got to have this income. He's got to do this. He's going to make protein shakes in the morning. He's going to go to gym five or six days a week.

Also a runner is going to have competed in X number of events. I wanted to be in these fields. He's got to be in this geographic and she goes on and on and on and on and you think, is this satire because it doesn't really look like it. And then she goes, how long do you think it would take for you to find a couple of men that

might fit that criteria?

And they go back to the matchmaker and she goes, that will literally never happen ever.

Yeah. And then the video cuts and everyone's like, wait, I need to know where this is from and what happened. And basically, I guess the long version is the matchmaker was like, you are totally unrealistic. And I'm firing you as a client. And that happens sometimes because it's they really do struggle.

There was that like meme song on Instagram for a while, like looking for a guy in five, finance six, five and a trust fund and one demographer was like, actually, how many people are there like this?

“I think there was like one or two in the whole country that met that description.”

But that highlights when we ever sense of an unlimited resources. Now, we do this anyway. A study by Elizabeth brought to University of Michigan said, people tend to kind of punch above their weight and dating 25%. So you look for partners that have a 25% higher mate value than you have yourself.

Oh, I see. They want to punch above me. Yeah, they want to. They made a can. Exactly.

Exactly. It doesn't mean they're going to.

So we get in this sense of like the grass is always greener.

We think that we can keep just keep searching for this great partner that elevates us. It's more desirable, attractive, interesting than us. And what can happen is you just spend your time really being frustrated and miserable and burnt out. So people tell us that they feel burnt out or not enjoying their time on the app, well, what

is their behavior? What are they actually doing when they pick up that technology?

I've introduced people to each other and I've also, again, been around all my friends

who are dating.

“And I remember one of my friends, she's divorced.”

She was a little bit older. One of my other friends also divorced a little bit older and I mean, like in their 60s. I introduced them to each other. They both love, I don't want to out anyone. So I'm going to be very vague here.

They both love very specific things that are the same and we thought this is just an awesome thing. They live in the same city. They love the same things. They go to the same events.

I'm shocked that they don't already know each other. They're both the same religion. They have run in similar circles. They're both the same financial status in many ways. They like going to the same countries on vacation.

Me and Jen were like, this is a slam dunk home run. We introduced them to each other and afterwards we emailed them separately like, so what do you think? You know what they both said? They're a little too old for me.

Yeah. Are you kidding?

“You do realize that you're the same, like you were within one year of each other's age.”

Jen looked at each other like, this is a joke, they coordinated this response with each other to make us roll our eyes and laugh, unfricing, believable. Both still single by the way, surprise. Relationships, researchers have a joke that people often think the grass is greener on the other side when it comes to partners, but in fact the grass is greener where you water

it. Where are you really focused with some? Exactly. You mentioned something earlier about when we have unlimited choice, we get pickier and online dating.

Does that to people? Have you seen the research? I'm going to paraphrase here and possibly get this wrong.

But basically, if you put a woman into a place where there's a lot of men, she suddenly

becomes a lot more picky with the guys. And if you put a guy into a place where the ratio is very different, then the guy becomes more picky. So you see things like, at least back in the day in New York, you used to be like two women for every man and that still counted a lot of the guys who were not doing well, you know,

financially who would date a woman who begged groceries at CVS, you know, they don't, we don't care. We're not picky about that kind of thing. So you'd see like this crazy dating ratio. So if you go there and you're, I don't know, a professional, you can meet a ton of women

that are kind of out of your league candidly speaking everywhere else in the country. But they're really interested in you because there's twice as many of them and there's a small number of, I don't know, like Wall Street lawyers or something, for example, in the area that's like top of the heap, the dating heap. Have you seen the research on this?

Because it seems like a strategy would then be if you can move to a place where the ratio was in your favor and then maybe, you know, go through the first dating thing, fall in love and then get out of there. Yeah. That's a very good evolutionary response.

I like it. You're thinking like an evolutionary biologist. There we go. And I try. So we do.

We talk about sex ratios a lot. And that has to do with particular environments. And there have been studies looking at zip codes or particular cities. One of the things we often do with some of our studies is, when we're doing national samples, we'll do breakdown by region or zip codes or cities.

And you see, like, these really different effects, exactly like what's going on in Miami versus what's going on in Aurora, Oklahoma. And one has to do with population size. So this sense of, do you really feel like you're in a place of an unlimited resource, but then also sex ratios.

And that plays out in all sorts of ways. Sometimes it plays out in competition. So if you have really huge ratios, like if you have a lot more women than men, the women start competing with each other, but also then it's easier for men to date. It also happens across age groups.

So when we see this when you're much older, like there have been studies in like assisted living communities or retirement communities, where there's a lot more women than men, in part because men tend to die at an early age. Yeah. On average.

Yeah. And so the single men who are like 70 in these communities, they sort of like, I have three girlfriends already. Are they? Right.

So it depends on all sorts of different environments. We see this sex ratio thing play out. We did a study years ago, too, we were looking at multiple campuses. It was study of college students and it was like, cook up some dating behavior. And there was one campus that was a small liberal arts campus and there were a lot more

women than men. They had art school and I think they had a conservatory, a lot more women than men. And a lot of the men that were there would sort of disproportionately high number of gay and bisexual men. Okay.

So the straight men in particular on this campus, they had these stories of like, and the women would tell stories like, oh, if you go out to the bar on the Friday night, and you see a guy on the dance floor, you've got to start dancing at them.

“And you have to start making out with them because he's not going to be single-long.”

They were also ramping up their sexual behaviors as a way to compete with other women because they were trying to get this guy's attention. Okay. So I messed up what I was going to, what I said before, what I meant was not that it's just easier to date.

I meant that the other sex that's in larger number becomes more promiscuous. So I've seen this and I remember the study was going over different campuses as well. That's what triggered this. There's different campuses and they even went to campuses that were religious and they found that if there was a lot more women than men, women were way more likely to have three

marital sex at this particular campus than other campuses that had no religious angle that had a more even ratio.

And I thought that was interesting because they're basically saying, not only is the culture

like, yeah, but there's three times as many women than there are men and it's like, well, you better start putting out, like you said, yeah, with the women on the dance for it's like, you see a straight guy on the dance for just shove your tongue down and throw it

“if you want to get out of here with the boyfriend because you're in trouble.”

Otherwise you're getting with the other women. Yeah. There's 50 women in here that want to piece of that and you better go for it. We should link that place in the show notes. I think there's a lot of people who want to apply to that university.

But that to me is kind of amazing because I think if you talk to the average man or woman,

they're probably not even aware that they do this. Yeah. And sometimes what we see is that, and they've been a series of studies of, like, what does that look like? What does that sort of sexual competition look like?

And sometimes maybe it doesn't mean that you're having a one night stand with someone, but maybe it means that you're wearing more revealing clothing. Maybe it means that you're spending more on a date. Maybe it means that you are a little more forgiving of bad behavior. So what we see is that I think the question of like promiscuity as a term or as a focus

is what we see in some of the work is that broadly, when you're competing more, when you're of the majority sex is like if you're a man and there's a lot of men in your community and you're heterosexual or woman, a lot of women in your heterosexual, you reduce your relaxed. Is the public the right way?

“Do you relax some of the things that you were really particular about?”

So maybe you say, well, I want a date of guy have a certain height and then suddenly you're open to someone a little bit shorter or you say, you know, if you're a guy and you say, you're going to pay for a date, maybe you take it to a little bit of a nicer restaurant. What it really does is it ramps up competition. Now, mating is a competition and it's a competition with winners and losers and when you ramp

that up, that can get expressed in a lot of ways. So for some people, it's sex sooner. So people have maybe a one day rule, three day rule, ten date rule. Maybe you say, okay, I'm going to do less dates. Maybe it's how much you're spending, maybe it's how flashy you're dressing, lots of different

ways you can get expressed. And for different people, they sometimes pick one of the other. This is all tracks really well again, when I was in New York and the ratio was supposedly two to one. I mean, I have no science behind that.

Just everyone said it back then, most of the women I dated were taller than me and that's without shoes on. I mean, they were just tall, blonde or brunette women that were really pretty and my friends used to joke. Wow, Jordan really punches above his weight and the reason was because I had like a little

bit of risk as the kids say, but also I was in New York City and I just had like a really good slot on the social hierarchy being an attorney that lived in in worked on Wall Street. I was just able to punch above my weight in ways that I would just not get away with in other parts of the country at that time. In the women would compete too, because I remember like, oh, I don't want to date you

if you date somebody else. And I was like, sorry, that's the mode I'm in. And I remember instead of being like, well, screw you, I'm not going to see you anymore. She was like, oh, I'm going to pursue you like a psychopath. And so you decide that I'm the girl for you.

And I remember being like, I need to get away from some of these people.

This is like unhealthy because competition is not always sane, right?

It's a can get crazy. No, no, it can feel charming as far as it then it feels too intense, right?

“And you brought up something that I think is so important when we think about the kind”

of complexity of our, of courtship and relationships and using this evolutionary framework. It's that our relationships are partner choices. It's the whole package. So sometimes a lot of people say, well, how do I know I talk to a group of wealthy men once and they all said, well, how do we know if our partners are interested in us or interested

in our money? And I thought it's the same thing. If you have it's your wealthy, then that's part of who you are. So maybe you're short, but are you also charming and are you hygienic and are do you have a good job and can you provide and are you intelligent?

So there's this whole package. And sometimes when we say things like, we're punching above your way because of your height or your way or your ball do you're right? Well, what that really means is you were able to get past the first date and because we tend to do all this discounting on the first date.

But then you start to know the whole person, you know that whole package. And that's what we bring to the mating market. So with these guys who asked me like, well, my partners interested in me for my money. And they say, well, they are, but that's not a bad thing. And some of them would hide what their real wealth was or they want to do.

And I want someone to really love me for me. And the, well, part of you is that you're able to provide for a partner. That's part of the package. Yes, I've seen this a lot. I had a friend in the UK that he had some kind of investment banker and he had made 50

plus million dollars or something like that.

And we were, I don't know, mid 30s, maybe even early 30s. And he brought a girl and I remember she wanted to go to this event. And she was trying to convince him to go to this ball. And he's like, it's 500 pounds to go to this ball or whatever. And I turned to him when she went to the barn, I go,

don't you have like 50 million bucks who cares about 500 bucks? He goes, he goes, I told her that my parents pay for my car and that none of the money is mine and I'm not going to inherit it. And I was like, okay, and he's like, trust me, please don't blow this up from me. Actually, like her.

And I think she likes me too. And I was like, all right, this is an interesting strategy because you're still you're lying about something that she's going to be thrilled when she finds out you're lying

Exactly.

It's a weird sort of dance you're doing.

And it goes back to the thing we all want. Someone we could trust and confide in. And so then you see, so like, well, like, this is great. This other shoe dropped and you have all this wealth, but can I really trust you? What else are you lying about?

Exactly. Exactly. But I do get it though because I look, the guys who say I want to make sure she's interested in me and not in my money, I mean, what they're really saying is I want to make sure she's not only interested in my money, right?

“That's the only thing that she likes, but it really is hard to separate those things.”

I've definitely met couples, especially growing up when I was younger where I go, dang. Your mom is really fine and your dad is such a schmob, but like, he's a great guy and everyone loves him. And he's really nice. And you look at them and you go, she really loves this guy.

Like, she really loves this guy. There's, you see them when they think no one's looking and she's dancing with him and playing with him and they've been married for 25 years. They look really happy and she just doesn't see the schmucky overweight guy who's three inches shorter than her who trips over his own feet and ties the shoelaces together.

She loves this guy. Yeah. Maybe initially she was like, oh, he's loaded as a nice car. I'll go out with him a couple of times. But like over time, this has worked out.

Some of these parents, they're still married. I mean, I know some of these kids from back in Michigan. They're still together. If she wanted to leave and go start a new life, that ship sailed a while ago. She could have done it when the kids left high school.

I mean, one of my friends, dad's, he went to jail for something. And I was like, oh, man, and Jay still stayed together. Yeah. And I thought that's the time she's going to bounce now. That's wonderful.

Yeah, I think the surprise for some people in our relationships is you look at that whole person and maybe you want someone who can afford to take a vacation because you love to travel. We bring a kind of mix of things to all of our relationships who are romantic and sexual lives.

And that's where often what we're looking for. You could be really good looking. But if you're not intelligent or you're not funny or you're not empathetic, and that will open up certain doors in your relationships and your social life, or you could be really great and bad.

But maybe you're kind of a jerk and other settings. So you can excel in certain areas. But one way to think about our relationships in courtship is it's a market. And there's a whole bunch of cards that you bring to this game. And it's that combination of how those pieces fit together and how for the person across

the table, how their pieces fit together, what they're looking for. Maybe they say, I really want someone I could trust. I really want someone who's good and bad, or I really want someone who's attractive. I just or I wrote someone who's creative. Now many of us want all of it, but many of us kind of bore focus on one area than another.

And then we look for our person that we can have that with. Before you start texting your exes, let's make a better decision and support the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored and part by Factor. There's a specific moment where healthy eating

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where happy to surface codes for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Justin Garcia. One of the guys that I knew who had the hardest problem dating was a super good looking model who was also a male stripper, basically.

And I remember we would go out and he was like a magnet.

I've never actually seen anything really like this in real life other than when you're

with like a celebrity randomly doing something. You see people just it's almost like subconscious and then all these women would be around and we'd love to go out with them because it's like, well, he can only talk to one or two at a time on the rest of them are waiting their turn to the, you know, shoot my shot. But he could never date and part of the problem was he was dumb as a box of rocks.

And he had, I've never met anybody who says the wrong thing by accident in a way that looks almost unpurpose, you know, you just this guy had problems. Like he was not mentally, and when we look at how people rate what they want and partners in our studies and other studies, one multinational study that looked at 53 countries, intelligence ranks higher than good looks.

Yeah, this guy was hopeless. It was so weird because my friends and I were like, how are you not getting any girls? You could beat them off with a stick and there'd still be a line. But then you open your mouth.

“We're like, your thing is you should just say you don't speak English.”

That's what you need to do. And so that was his move for a while. He was like, no, I only speak Portuguese. And then he'd meet somebody from Brazil and the jig was up, but whatever, he'd just go to the next.

I mean, we had to tell him, just don't say anything translate everything through one of us. We'll just do the talking for you. That worked for him. But I mean, imagine how much a work that was for us.

Yeah. So, all right, before we get too distracted by that ridiculousness, you write that humans are wired for social monogamy, but not necessarily sexual monogamy. And I would love for you to explain that probably carefully because some people are going to hear that and they're either going to panic or they're going to celebrate.

Well, that's gone, glad that Lisa, as long as I hear it, we can kind of think through what it means. And so, as a biologist, when I talk about monogamy, now I work with a lot of psychologists and social scientists and the public, and often we talk about monogamy and relationships. And we all think we know what it means.

“If I were to ask people, what do you think a monogamous relationship is?”

But here's the interesting part. As an evolutionary biologist, and when we talk about monogamy, we talk about two different parts. So, we talk about social monogamy, which is pair bonding, but we would call romantic love in humans.

Only three to five percent of mammals have the capacity to form those pair bonds.

They're even of the architecture on their brain, about 15 percent of primate.

So, we have this capacity to form these intense pair bonds, and we talk about mutual territory defense, mutual nest building, mutual raising of offspring, that mutual part. And that happens in pair bonds, but also feelings of focused attention and truce of thought obsessive thinking what we would call romantic love. So, that's social monogamy, that's forming an intense pair bond with a person, typically

one at a time, sometimes lifelong. That is a different thing from sexual monogamy or fidelity. And when we're talking about the relationship structure and your sexual behaviors, too often we kind of put them together, just talking about monogamy. But in actuality, when we can understand that there's two different things, different

mechanisms, different parts of our brain that are involved in helping us connect with one person to form this deep bond and also desiring sexual novelty and variation, both being these adaptive levers, and sometimes in conflict with each other. When we can see them through that lens, that there are these two different levers that

are involved in our relationships, the bond and the sexual behavior, and then not always

in sync. For me, it just helps look at our romantic and sexual lives with an entirely new lens, and understand those tensions. So for some of us, you could feel deeply bonded to someone, but you can find yourself drifting because you want novelty and excitement, maybe you get bored, maybe you cheat,

maybe you're interested in someone else, maybe you open your relationship and you engage in negotiated non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy, it's sometimes called, used to be called

researchers said who's consenting. So now we say negotiated non-monogamy. Yeah, because I was going to say they've never heard of the other ones, but those are complicated man. There's also Reddit threads all the time where it's like, "Oh, my husband decided that

he wanted to do this, and it just turned out he wanted to bang his secretary, and then I finally tried it. I have 8,000 dates lined up, and then the guy wants to close things up, because it didn't work out. It's like, oh my gosh, come on, man.

“You see that every time there's also, I think there's in a whole sub-reddit of open marriage”

regret, basically, where people go, "I should never have done this, and it's all these

other people being like, yeah, oh, here's another good story about somebody venting about how this blew up on their face." Yeah. So I don't know. We found in a national sample one in five Americans, if at some point had some version

of an open relationship, a lot of them I think were younger and testing, but actively ended as a much lower number. And I think that highlights that some people structure their intimate lives in a way that it works, but for a fast majority of people, it's a really challenging structure to maintain. How much relationship misery comes from pretending that the monogamy thing is both just

encompasses everything. Sexual monogamy, parabond. Yeah. How much relationship misery comes from just pretending that these are the same thing? Yeah.

And I think it's a lot, because when we can start to recognize that you can be deeply bonded to someone, but maybe you find yourself bored, or wanting novelty or interested in someone else, what we do is we start to do what psychologists call the deficit model of relationships or infertility. And we assume that, oh my gosh, there's something wrong with my relationship, because I'm interested

in someone else or something else. Yes. Not necessarily. That's not necessarily true. What it means is that you're craving some novelty.

So yes, you could follow through this deficit model and just be bored all the time or upset or cheat, or try opening your relationship, or you could do what we found in our custody of long-term relationships that were just characterized by high degrees of passion. What we found in that study was these are people that they take that desire for novelty and variation, and they pull it into their relationship.

And they say, you know what? We're going to take a vacation. You know what?

We're going to try a new recipe that we've never tried before.

We're going to take a walk in a park that we've never been to. You don't necessarily have to go to the other side of the world every three months for a vacation. You can't afford that. Lots of things you could do, but introduce novelty, introduce variation in the context

of your partnership. Maybe you try a new sexual position, maybe you cook a new recipe, because a lot of scope of what that variation of novelty is, but you do it in the context of your partnership. And those are the people that had, they were intentional about watering the grass and of their relationship.

They were intentional about finding things that were exciting. Those are the people that had high passion. So, to your question, Jordan, you're the perfect question that we all need to be asking in our lives in our relationships is, yes, we can find ourselves feeling pulled in other directions.

That's not necessarily bad, it's not necessarily a problem.

The problem is when we just ignore it and we had ourselves feel pulled and pulled.

We have the capacity. We have these big four brains, we also have we have the capacity to make decisions that what we want our relationships to look like and how we want them to feel. You've got to go to exercise in the book, the me, you us audit. We don't have to go into it here, but I just want people to know there's practical stuff

in the book where people can kind of go, okay, here's a question I ask myself or my partner

“or both, and I think that that stuff is quite useful.”

So if this is resonating with people listening or watching, they can go and grab it. The book is in the show notes and please use your links. Yadda, help support the show. Okay, you described an intimacy crisis in the book. What's the evidence that we're not just complaining about modern dating but facing something

deeper? Yeah, I think when we look across all the evidence, this is I opened up the intimate animal, thinking about some of these issues, we look across the evidence, we talk a lot about this loneliness epidemic, it's impact on our psychological and physical health, even though we're living in denser arrangements than ever before.

For me, I want to take a step back and thinking about the social behavior of us as a social primary and the reason I called the book the intimate animals, the animal within, how do we connect to our world around us? What I think we see is it's the quality and the depth of our relations, and many ways we're more connected than ever before in our evolutionary history.

We can go on social media and there's a thousand people that are right there for some people, many of us, but are those people that would be there if you need them? Are they there to hold your hair back, if you have food poisoning, are they there to take care of you, are they there to really witness and listen to you? Do you feel seen and heard and known by them?

“That's what we see that people don't have.”

So for me, it's bigger than just loneliness, it's more about how we're engaging with technology, how we're engaging with socially, how we're maintaining and prioritizing and investing in our romantic and sexual lives, but just how connected we feel to the world, we're all zipping by each other, you could be on the subway and see 3,000 people, but do you feel connected to any of them?

That is what we need. Of course we don't, right? I think, man, there's a lot we can dive into here, I got to pick my channels, I would love to know what, I'm putting you on the spot, I feel a little bit bad, but what

It's a really good question, the challenge is that it is the most common way people are meeting. Yeah.

“So I think depending on who you talk to, those companies, some will say, yeah, people are frustrated”

with courtship and dating and they're blaming the apps and the issue isn't really the app, it's cultural, the dating and culture are changing about our expectations. Others would say, well, the apps are gamified, some of them are gamified, so we're feeling this pressure to quit just swiping, swiping and not engaging. That said, the apps are not monolithic, they're very different, there's very different

apps, they have different flavors, the average American is on three different dating apps at a time.

So they kind of do different things, so I'm always a little bit cautious, not just because

of we work with them and they fund our research, but because it really depends on what app what your goals are, what age you are. But we do know people do struggle with so much data and so much information, but it also depends on what you're looking for. One of the challenges that we know the people have and this comes up in courtship, it also

comes up in maintaining a relationship is what psychologists see life in cool calls the all or nothing marriage or the suffocation model of relationships. And that's that we're often looking for someone who can do everything. You want someone who can be my confidant and support me in my career and cook a good meal and take care of me when I don't feel well and have a lot of passion and be great

in the bedroom and hold my hair back when I'm sick and also want to have sex with me

“the next morning after I was sick, we have this expectation that our partners can do everything.”

Now our ancestors relied on our social networks and broader social groups to do some of those things, not just your partners. So today many of us look at our partners and we have just frankly unrealistic expectations

of what a relationship is and can be and should be.

What do dating apps understand about our psychology that the average user does not? Oh, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think fundamentally they understand that we are motivated to find partners and I mean, at the end of the day, they are really introducing apps and I think that users often go on them and I think this app is going to pick my spouse.

This app is going to find me love and none of the apps can do that, none of the algorithms can do that. We know that from studies, they just can't do it. They can do what they should promise to do is find you people that you can then use your human brain to build a connection with.

But if we think of them as introducing apps, as ways to initially sort through the noise and connect with people, they actually do that pretty well. If we think of them as finding the love of our life, they shouldn't promise that because they can't deliver on their promise. And most of them don't.

“I would say most of the companies don't promise that, but that's what a lot of us walk”

around thinking that they can and should do. But that's the human brain, that's the dynamics of and there's all the stuff that goes into relationships. Sometimes it's timeliness. Sometimes you swipe on someone in your perfect, and you say, "But I have to go to

med school for four years and I'm going to be out of the state and we're just the timing just doesn't work." So there's all these other factors that play in real time and relationships. I think for guys, timing is a huge one. It probably is for everybody, but I remember early in my life, probably early 20s.

Friends mom, I think it's at something or grandmother had said something like, "Women are

always looking early for somebody they want to fall deeply into and it could happen with

any relationship that they're in." And guys have like an on-off switch where it's like, they're dating casually and then one day they're like, "You know, I should probably settle down." And it's like the next person they meet or the next couple of people they meet and it's like, "Yep, okay."

And they get married and look confirmation bias and stuff like that happening when you observe this, of course. But I feel like I've seen that a lot. And for me personally, I really was like casual, casual, casual, casual, casual, casual, casual, you know what I should probably settle down, got married to my wife, like, you know,

data started dating her like within three months, I met other women then too, but within three months I had met my now wife. And it was like, was that coincidence? I think I did have a mental shift. And one of the things she said early on was like, "Hey, I'm looking for some serious, are

you going to casually date because I'm not going to waste my time, I don't want to waste your time." And I was like, "Ha, let me sleep on that." They did. And I was like, "No, you're right.

I should probably settle down." And then that was it. That was really it. Yeah. And often it's responsive to our environment.

So often what no switch has happened, it's often because we meet someone and there's something about them that makes us want to switch nicely. It's actually kind of similar to what you see with people who have substance challenges. And they'll say like, "Okay, you'll quit when you want to quit. Not about when your whole family or your friends or your employers want you to quit."

Same thing in our relationships. Not saying that there's anything bad about, I'm not a moralist about casual, we long-term is different ways of people structure their intimate lives, but we can meet someone that encourages a switch that's which, same if we just ask people today, young people today, do you want kids?

A lot of them say, "I don't know. I'm probably not." And then they say, "Well, I met someone and I want to have kids with them." Right. So much of our reproductive lives, our sexual behaviors and habits, our romantic intentions,

they're responsive to particular people. How do we separate genuine love from dopamine plus novelty plus, I don't know, whatever else is in there in the mix?

And actually, as therapists will often say that love is a verb, it's an action, you have

“to treat someone kind, and I think that's cute, that's sweet, it's a good reminder to”

go out of your way to do good things for people you care about, but it's also fundamentally like not totally true, so love is, many ways, a neuropsychological state of being. And that is, you could love someone and you could treat them poorly, you could love someone and treat them well. You could love someone who abuses you, you could love someone who is, you know, you're

best friend and confident, but when we understand that it's a neuropsychological state, it parallels, I wouldn't call it quite a diction, but it parallels in the brain addiction responses. And in fact, work by talking about my long-term collaborator, the late anthropologist Helen Fisher, and her studies of FMI brain scans of people who are romantically rejected, their

brain looks remarkably like someone going through cocaine withdrawal. Wow. So there is a lot that goes on in our, that parallels addiction systems, all that dopamine

stuff and oxytocin and feel good, hormones and peptides, love, romantic love, passionate

love, it's a whole body experience, it's psychological, it's biological, it's cultural. What's a red flag that what feels like love is actually, I don't know, anxiety/obsession or some kind of intermittent reinforcement that's not really love, but a trick and illusion. Yeah. So not everyone experiences this, but when we talk about limmerance, the early stages of romantic

love and passion, some people get the really intense, like butterflies, actually, probably a majority do, some debates on this in national samples, but you kind of get the butterflies of climbing hands, this sort of hard time finding words, and not everyone gets that.

“The challenge, I don't think in and of itself it's a red flag, and I think it could feel”

great, it's intoxicating if you have that. What can happen, though, is it makes you overlook things? So when you're really in that state of, what can feel like anxiety, but more positively valence, if you had that feeling in an exam, you would be like, oh my gosh, I'm having a panic attack.

Then you had it with a romantic partner, you could be like, I feel alive, but it's physiologically similar, and it can make you overlook things, because you could get that feeling, you get that excitement, and you're like, but I didn't realize they were a little bit fresh to the server, at the restaurant, or I didn't realize that they don't really let me finish my sentences, or I didn't realize that they focused on their own pleasure in the bedroom

and not mine. So, you can kind of overlook, so it's not in itself a red flag, I love that you asked this, but it can make you overlook all the other red flags that are around. Right, now that makes sense, that's a good way of phrasing it. What is behavioral synchronization?

What is this, and why does it feel like intimacy, or at least it feels intimate, that synchronization? It is, it's something we see in a lot of species, and I actually love it, I'm on the other side of my screen right now, I have a sea horse that friends of mine gave me. Weedy sea dragons do this sea horse, there's a lot of species do it.

You have living sea horses, or you just have done it, or whatever, dried out of the picture of them. Okay, not just, you know, the next flux for you is going to be a tank of sea horses. Now I want that, I can't wait to hang up and run down stairs. It beats a watercolour of water, you see horses, and I get some sea horses, yeah, but just

putting your contract when it comes up for it now.

“I think they're hard to keep, but they might be.”

But they're a great example of they do a mirror dance and their courtship process, and they move, they synchronize. Now we also see it in big flux of birds. We do it. We do it on the dance floor, which is why we often think that dancing could be erotic.

And it's when you can sink to someone else. It's also why, you know, when you're on a zoom call or when you're on a podcast, you're in with someone, and you just add a sync with each other, it can feel just awkward, or tense. That happens to all of us, and all sorts of social interactions.

When you feel like you can sink to someone when you're picking up the kind of given take of when to speak, when to pause, you feel connected. You feel now that happens a lot in our romantic and an intimate sexual interactions as well. I mean, when we're kissing, 50% of people have kissed someone and no one instantly, whether they had chemistry.

Now, I actually don't think it's a great measure, but 50% of people say that they know instantly. So, behavioral synchronization is when we can kind of really sink with another, and I'm talking and rocking in my chair, because I think of, it's that given take, whether you're dancing, whether you're talking, that you feel in sync with someone.

It's actually a gift. People are much better at it than others, with psychologists called super synchronizers. They're the ones that can really work a room, or a conference, or a meeting really well. But we look for that in our relationships. And when we're at a sync with someone, we're just like, well, that's when we talk about

chemistry. Oh, I had no chemistry with them on the dance floor. I had no chemistry. Based on what? What was your assessment often?

It's behavioral synchrony. Yeah, that's interesting. So are there people that do this better than others with literally anyone? There are. And that's some studies that have psychologists have been looking at that they can just master

social, particularly groups much better. They can kind of synchronize, they may have a, they're kind of more honed in on, since as we talk about emotional intelligence, or there's something about this super synchronizers, they just really can hone in.

They're the ones that tend to be really charming on first dates when we're really kind of anxious.

They can just know how to interact with different people. They're also like in my line of work, there were people who are really good fun raises.

comfortable and connected. I kind of feel like I have to do some of that on this podcast. Yeah, you do.

“That's what makes you good at it, or you're able to talk to a lot of different personalities,”

a lot of different skills. And how do you pull something out of them? Can I? Yeah, having read the book helps, but also, yes, I, in fact, I feel like when I was dating, I had to do a lot of this.

And when I used to teach some of the dating stuff back in the day when my previous career, I had to do some of this, right? It was like, yeah. Okay, make sure you talk to the major D and get a good rapport going with the server. And they could go from the professional into a little bit more of a friendly vibe.

And then that'll make everyone relax. And you have to do all this stuff.

Basically, I had to teach a lot of what super synchronized was probably do totally naturally

without even thinking about it. And I was like, I hear some of the things that they do. Let's practice these as skills. And eventually it becomes a part of your personality because it becomes a habit, which I guess is fine.

But yeah, it worked really well. I mean, it works super well. Yeah. And it works extremely well in dating. It works extremely well when you're making friends.

It doesn't have to be romantic at all. Yeah. So much of attraction is conscious preference versus, I don't know what you would even call it, body level data, or something like that, or can you even measure that? Yeah.

Sometimes we're vibing in its synchrony. It's really just sort of what kind of following each other's movements or picking up on conversation. But some of that is also all of the information. And I think it's one of the challenges with technology and dating apps is that we court

your processes for our species involves watching someone's body language, hearing their voice, smelling them, perhaps touching them, perhaps tasting them. So we invoke the bodily senses and courtship process. And sometimes there's something there is something about someone's voice or something about their body language.

Or it's their social network. So how we take in all that information, we can have our list. I really want to partner who can do this with me. That's conscious. That's cognitive.

That's what we're saying.

Here's what I'm looking for.

Here's what I'm putting in my profile. Here's what I'm telling the matchmaker I want. But then when we actually interact with people who makes us feel psychologically safe, who makes us be our best selves, who makes us feel more chiming, that is all about human interaction.

“That's why I say we're the intimate animal.”

That's where it's this almost biological, an animalistic way that we think about what is sociality. How do we connect with each other? And this that is so much a part of understanding our intimate lives. Yes, we could talk about what we want.

We can think about what we want. We can build the lives that we want with people. But there's also a lot of it that's just how do we respond to each other at a core biological way. Some mistake or sometimes some mistake, synchronization for actual compatibility.

It's a good question. I never thought of that. At different points in a relationship, we can often mistake signals and cues. And so sometimes we could say, oh, we were great on a dance floor. We were on the dance floor.

We were so in sync now. You might feel passionate. If you've ever been on a dance floor with someone and you really sync with them, it does not happen to me on dance floors, my friend. No, sir.

Negatory. Well, somewhere. If you're anywhere, right? Yeah. But if you feel that, it's erotic.

Maybe there's different context for different people that you can then sometimes what we can do is we start to build love stories. So that's where we could start to say, like, oh, my gosh, we were on the dance floor. And one of the stories I tell in the book is this woman is on a dance floor in Jamaica. And she meets the sky.

And it's, you start to build this whole story of what our relationship's going to be like and how everything else.

“I think we all want to be cautious that love takes time, healthy relationships take time,”

getting to know someone takes not just the second and third dates, but takes time.

So you want to keep accumulating information. And sometimes you can have these early interactions, whether it's synchrony or how someone smells or, and we could take that data point and start to imagine our life together. Or you can have a hookup. You can have a sexual event and it's got great chemistry.

And then you assume that you can have a great relationship. And being in love with someone and being attracted to someone is not the same as a healthy relationship. One of the hard lessons many of us have to learn. So I think that's where we want to be cautious.

It's an important data point, but it doesn't necessarily tell us everything. Dating apps have turned romance into a slot machine where the prize is occasionally somebody named Braden holding a fish. So before you do swipe your way into carpal tunnel syndrome and a restraining order, let's take a break for something more reliable.

We've also got a subreddit for the show over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. You can discuss episodes, the show itself, or just share a dank meme or inside joke. Feedback Friday threads are especially popular that's over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Now for the rest of my conversation with Justin Garcia. I keep hearing from really, I call them annoying, but they're worse than annoying.

There are these influencers, right? Most of them are guys. I guess I don't know what you would even call it. Some of them are red pill if you know what that is. But they'll say something like when a woman or person in general engages in casual sex,

it damages their ability to pair bond. Have you heard this nonsense there? I think nonsense theory before. Yeah, I've heard it in the dissonance, there is not a lick of evidence, this is just absurd. Yeah, I was curious about that because people will really lean into this.

What I find ironic is, they're also teaching guys to like go after as many girls as possible.

immediately because she's not going to be able to pair bond.

So it's like go out and sleep with as many women as possible.

“But anybody who would actually be with you, you need to get rid of.”

I mean, it's like, wow, this is, I can't think of a better recipe for being a miserable, lonely piece of crap guy. You said it. Perfect formula for that. Yeah, you said it.

And that's what happens when we don't have data, we don't have enough research or thinking about really the complexities of our romantic and sexualized. We create these methodologies. But then we start acting in these ways that are kind of really, yes, unhinged at times about what do we want and who are we pursuing and then, oh, you did this on a data, you did

this sexually. So that means that I can't have, there's plenty of good data that people who have hookups then have healthy and happy relationships that people sexual histories don't necessarily impact their relationships with their reproductive lives, but we create this mythology about what it might mean.

And we forget that all the context, like maybe you met someone, maybe you have a five-date rule, but maybe you had too many cocktails on the first date and you ended up having sex, but you want a really meaningful relationship with them. Or maybe you really want a meaningful relationship. You met someone who just wanted to have sex with them that night.

So it's also, it's a complex idea that happens. And when we read too much into it, we're just kind of playing a fantasy game.

“Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the guys and securities, right?”

Like, oh, I don't want a woman that slept at the bunch of other guys because some of them might be better than me or whatever in some way, and I shall be thinking about them when she's with me. And so I'm going to come up with this ridiculous fake pseudoscience nonsense that says that anybody who does that, there's something wrong with them, and I should pre-reject

them. I mean, it's just a really unhealthy way to look at things. It is.

The most important data point, if you're in a relationship with someone, is that they

chose you and you chose them. Yes. That is the most important date. I had plenty of long-term relationships that started off as a hookup, and I remember there was one girl that I dated again in New York, where I dated, and I remember in the

morning being like, crap, I don't remember her name, and we hooked up last night, and like this is awkward. Oh, well, I'm probably never going to see her again. And then I saw her again, and she was really happy, and I was like, hey, and we hung out like friends, and with her friends, and I was like, she's really cool, and then I took her

out in a real day. And then I was, I remember dating her for a while, and my friends were like, how did you guys meet? And I was like, okay, we need to come up with a story where we sort of skipped the first time where we actually met, because it makes us both sound like trash.

And then we'll just go into this thing where we just say we met through friends, instead

“of I met at you at three o'clock in the morning, on the late Patrick's Day, right?”

And I remember doing that, because it was like a hookup that turned into a relationship.

And I wasn't like, oh, gosh, she hooks up on the first, I mean, that was okay, but that's

what I wanted to do. So how can I get mad about that? I don't know. You planned a zip line first date. Is that a sex researcher's idea of romance or were you kind of like trying to hack

the nervous system with some excitement? What was going on there? Yeah, both. Okay. So what's researchers do is we think we do a little biohacking here, and the reason we went

on this date was someone that I knew I actually had built, I had a friendship with. So we knew each other actually. A lot of people date friends first, having that core connection as friends can help. But we hadn't really moved into a more romantic or real clear dating context. Even the challenge when you start dating friends is, how do you really know?

We just still friends are we getting is the relationship moving to a new place. So we plan this date. And I went zip lining because of this principle known as misattribution of arousal. And that's that when we're worth, it's actually the same thing that long-term couples do, just in a different way, that they're doing things for an novelty and excitement.

Going on dates, going the dinner and a movie, we're going to a movie is actually a terrible date because you can't reach out there in your quiet. And sometimes dinner can be nice, especially getting the know someone or a meal or a coffee or a cocktail. If you can do a little something that's fun, that gets the nervous system going, a little

bit of excitement, maybe a little bit of a shock. So zip lining is good because you get a little bit of an anxiety response and a little bit of excitement and you're kind of screaming as you go and you're outside. You're talking in between the zips. I only use that once, but that was a really great way.

And I think when we think about dates, doing activities, particularly ones that can be shared activities, you just start to build a connection in a new way in a lot faster. Why do novelty or slash mild fears, slash adventure, sometimes make people feel more attracted? Is it because of the time dilation where you feel like you've known them longer? Because you've done a lot of things you normally don't do?

What's happening there? Part of it is physiological. So when we think about what happens when people are in love, when we see a rise at its job means this and the increased dopamine activity, sometimes particularly an early love, we see a drop in serotonin, so you can get those same responses when you're doing

activities. It means that it can happen in groups sports, it can happen with a little bit of risk. It can happen actually with sexual activity, which is why some people say sex itself can start to stimulate feelings of connection. So doing those things like those kinds of activities that are a little bit exciting, you

start to associate with that person. And then you start to, I mean, I think the thing that's so interesting about the date I should earlier, 70% of people fall in love with someone they didn't initially think they could. What it means is that we tend to not realize that around us is opportunities.

And because maybe you would just would have never thought of them as a potential partner

before the pandemic. Until they were the only person you could see besides the Dord Ash guy every week. Yeah. Yeah. So often we just don't realize that within our networks that there are often, not for everyone,

but for many people, there are potential intimate partners. And we don't necessarily see them even though they're right there. So things like zip lining, it helps you see the person in a new light. And you're like, oh, it's a little bit more fun, more exciting about this person than I remember.

“Where is the line between creating sparks and manufacturing false intimacy?”

And I'll give you something to play with here. When I was, again, you know, in my 20s dating phase, one of the things that me and my crew were fond of doing was creating something that was a little bit adventurous, right? So it'd be like, okay, let's meet here. We're going to go for a drink.

And then we would go to this place with a really good view of Brooklyn that was near my place, coincidentally, right? And then I'd be like, oh, I want to, you think this view is great. Let me show you something awesome. And we would go up and she's like, I'm not going to your apartment, I'm like, relax. We're not going to my apartment.

And we go up on the roof. And there was a way to get out in the roof. And it was like, not a public roof deck or even a roof deck for us as residents, but you could get up there. And then you could go up to this almost like spire for lack of a better word.

There were railings, but it was a little bit dangerous feeling. And it was like, you're not supposed to be here. But it was still clean still safe and had a view like a 360 degree view of all of Lower Manhattan on a good day. It was nuts. I'd bring a speaker up there and play music and stuff and sometimes if it was just a crew friends,

we'd like dance up there and have a few drinks. But I'd bring a girl up there and she was like, wow, this is crazy. And I'd say, hey, I've got to use the restroom. You can stay outside if you want. And she'd be like, no, that's fine.

Then we go down to my apartment and then she'd see my apartment and we'd use the restroom. And I'd say, do you want something to drink? So I had this sort of, like, mapped out, right? And it was pretty good and had a pretty good rate. And I gave them the option to sort of bail at any moment if they weren't feeling it. But by the time we ended up from, you know, walking from mid-town or whatever to the village to the view spot to the drink spot to my building, then to my place, I was like, this is happening.

“So what's the line between creating sparks and manufacturing false intimacy and using time dilation to make it feel like I've known this person for a week?”

Yeah, I think what's interesting about that, I love that example. Let's use that one. What's great about that is that it's not like it's just manufacturing spark. You're creating the conditions. It's intentionality. It's not entirely different from the couple who together for 30 years who like candles, dim the lights, play some music, create a setting for feelings of passion to emerge to create a little spark.

Doesn't mean you're manufacturing the whole thing because in fact, every part along that way from the first encounter to going from point A to B and to C, then to D, and then the E, you're building that connection. So yeah, the German game plan that you have here's where I'm really going to show the, you know, let's take a look at the whole city and that's romantic. And I think that's just

putting some fuel on the fire. That's helping get those sparks going. We are always able to make decisions.

We're able to detect if someone makes us uncomfortable, if someone discusss us, if someone, and along the way, I think what also happens is if you have a plan and then you have say, okay, part, CDE is this what I want to get. It means that you're really trying and parts A, B, C to get there. So those first half of the date until you get there, you're really putting effort in because you know you have this plan that you want to get it. So subconsciously, you're engaging in all these

other behaviors of really talking and saying, okay, I want to take you to this next place. Do you feel comfortable with safe enough to go with me to this next place? So I actually, I think that these are good things. This is being intentional in our dating lives. You know, it's different if you're totally deceiving and lying and telling someone to imagine that it's not really yours. You know, this is basically only happened if I was at an interested in the person. You know, it's not like

every girl got the same. And they were interested in you. Yeah, I had to be going well. I mean,

“that's why we started off with a walk in a drink because if I was like this person sucks,”

suddenly I got a phone call right and I had to go. Yeah. I'd be like this person's okay, but I'm not, I don't really not super interested in them and I would say, yeah, I got to introduce you to my roommate. I think he would really like you and then they're like, okay, loud and clear pal and that that was kind of the end of that. Yeah. Man, there's so much I wanted to discuss, but okay, let's in the interest of time here, what do you think is going to happen in brief with AI? Because man,

there's a lot of lonely guys and women for that matter that love talking to chatbots. I mean, we've seen this. I've covered this on the show. You know, you see these New York Times articles where people are going crazy talking to these chatbots. They're only going to get better. And there's a lot of comments you see from people that are like, I would love to have this kind of companion. I don't need all the rest of this stuff in my life. And I kind of get it. If you're 65

and divorced, why start again with some other smell when you can talk to the internet? Yeah, oh my gosh, how am I supposed to be brief on this one? This is a big one. You can't be. We can

and we don't have to be that brief. But basically, like, what are AI companions going to get

right about intimacy and what are they going to fail to provide? It's kind of the core beginning question here. Yeah, there's so much to uncover about the role of AI and our romantic lives and our

think about. Now, we have a study actually with my colleagues, Ellen Kaufman and Amanda Gassman. We have a paper that we just submitted on this issue, including these romantic chatbots, some of them really interesting data and a national and a multinational sample. So one of the things we're saying and we saw this in the last year's singles in America study that we did was that we asked people are using AI in any aspect of your dating life or your romantic life. And what we found was

that overall about a quarter of people were using it in some way helped me pick good pictures from my dating profile, helped me with prompts on a date. But young people, Gen Z, you're doing it at half the rate. They're about 50% nearly 50% are using AI in some aspect of their dating life.

“So I think what we're seeing is we're going to really start to see an ushering and a wave of”

AI in people's lives, how they're using apps, how they're making choices about partners, how they're describing what they want, even who's chatting. I mean, I think we're going to get to a place where it's sort of my AI and your AI are flirting with each other to decide if we're actually going to go on a date. That's actually not a terrible idea, right? Instead of swiping it, I talked to this heaven thousand AI's and these one-hundred were actually going to drive with the things that

you said. That's crazy to think about. There's a lot of things that I think going on, the challenge I think where they are on the one hand, I think what is a great opportunity is particularly for people who are neurodivergent, people who have high anxiety or people with high loneliness because we know how bad loneliness is for your psychological and physical health. Does it give you a way to feel connected to something or to practice or to say here's how I

want to chat? Here's what I'm going to say. I think that can be good. I think of it as I kind of

bike with training wheels and at some point you want to take those training wheels off. If you're using it to practice and to feel okay, but then you take the training wheels off. If you keep them on and you keep using these bots, I think the challenges I don't think you're going to get the same positive feelings that we get from true intimate relationships. In part, one of the things we look for in romantic relationships is not just I want to do good for you and you do good for me,

but you want someone who, I want a partner who you expand your sense of self by worldviews change, but I also want to know that your worldview has changed. Do we really think what these bots that we're expanding their worldview that we're making their lives better? I wake up in the morning and I put my wife's vitamins out and I make my coffee, I get her drink and I just because I tend to be up first and I do it. Do I have a lot of time in the morning? Usually not, but I do because I want

“to make her life better. Yeah. That's what we do in our relationships. Do we feel that we can do that”

with these bots? I think that there's an element of optimizing and transaction and they're helpful for business, but that are going to feel unfathilling when we look at them as long-term romantic or intimate partners. Sure term, I think they can be helpful. I think what I worry about is these things being training wheels for a bunch, let's say a 13 or 12 to 18-year-old boy uses it for six years.

This bot has no needs. It's never going to cause drama that you have to figure out how to handle.

It's not going to have mental illness or developing brain stuff that teenagers have. It's not going to give you harsh truth about the way that you're showing up. It's going to, in fact, reinforce all of the stupid selfish unknowing things that you do and all of the ways that you try hard are not going to be met with, hey, you don't have to try so hard. They're going to be met with, how everything you say is funny and everything you do is attractive and everything you do is great

and I have no needs. That's what I'm worried about, right? Because then you get it and then they go, I'm ready for the real world and then the real woman's like, this is stupid and you're insufferable and you're like, okay, I don't not handle any of that. I'm out. I'm going back to the robot.

“Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's long term going to be a real challenge for people's relationships.”

A little bit practice experimenting that can be helpful, but I'm not convinced that they're going to be as fulfilling. I think at its core, I'm not convinced that at least yet I could be eaten crow in a year, but at least yet I don't think that these technologies can override four and a

half million years of evolution and I just hired a connect with another very unlikely. So after studying

treating heartbreak loneliness illness, the weird ways technologies, shaping dating, what still makes you optimistic about human intimacy? Yeah, and I am optimistic, Jordan. I think that it is so profound art when we farm intense connections, intimate connections with another. How they impact our well-being, our happiness, our satisfaction, both physical and psychological health. All they evidence is just we're still motivated for them. I think the great challenge, the great intimacy crisis we're in

we're struggling with figuring out how to establish them, but we want them. The fact that hasn't gone away, and we know that when we can form intimate relationships, we benefit from them. So I'm optimistic about that. I think even the technologies that are post challenges for us, that are distracting us from forming investing in those relationships, increasingly we're finding ways to use technology to lean in, use AI to practice, then go on a real date, use an app

to just meet people, then let the brain decide who you're going to be in love with. I think that's where we can take these things that have been distractions or noise and leverage them.

why we have to study love and sex scientifically. It's what we do here at the Kinsey Institute.

“I think the more we really invest and understanding who we are, then we leverage that to have”

more meaningful, more enjoyable, more satisfying relationships. I don't think we're going to stop being motivated for that. If anything, I think the more we know, the more we can achieve that. I was going to end there and that's a great way to stop, but I just thought of this. Okay, you spent your career studying love biology and behavior and data. But when you proposed your wife, Michelle, what did you finally understand in your body that the science had only previously

explained in your brain? There's a lot. And I think since I finished the book, just also how our lives have continued to evolve in such beautiful ways, I think I understood attachment but once you really kind of experienced its different, the thing that for me that was so interesting was that

I always understood as a biologist that marriages the social cultural contract that's different

than the physiology of love, of a bonding. But at the same time, in all of our studies, we found that people who were married, like let's compare cohabiting couples to married couples. The married couples had like somewhat better psychological well-being and less stressed and less anxiety. I was

“as a what exactly is going on. It's just a social contract. And I think I finally understood that”

it's a social contract that's embodied. It is a social contract once you get engaged, once you get married. But it's saying to someone, I choose you and it's them saying you, I choose you as well and this really profound way. Now we could argue it's just a complex legal way and you've got these contracts and there's tax advantage just for sure. But it does really say that it sort of ramps up the type of connection and that becomes embodied. You feel that. It's why you see that these stress responses

were different. Ox, toast and responses were different. Health outcomes were better. And I just couldn't understand that. I just thought like, ah, people are too into the construct of marriage. And then I think once I was engaged in them once we actually married, but I really felt it. And I think what it is is that when we talk about wanting someone you can trust and confide in, it's also, it's a way of saying to your partner, I know that you're going to mess up, but I'm still here. I know that

we're going to both make mistakes. We're going to fall, but I am here and I'm here to pick you up and you're, and I know you're there to pick me up. That really is what the agreement is. That's

“to me. I think when I think of marriage, we could critique it as a cultural institution for me. It's”

really reminding each other. We're here to pick each other up when we slip. Dr. Justin Garcia, thank you very much, man. I'm looking forward to this for a while. You did not disappoint. Thanks, Jordan. Great to be with you. Big thanks to Dr. Justin Garcia. His book, The Intimate Animal, we'll link to that in the show notes. Please just our links. It does help support the show. What I appreciated about this conversation is that Justin doesn't just reduce love to

just biology, but he also doesn't let us flow to a degrading card nonsense where every relationship problem is solved by a communication and a decorative throw pillow that says live left love. The big takeaway here is that sex is powerful, but intimacy is often the deeper hunger. People are not just chasing bodies. They're chasing being wanted, being known, being part of an us. And when we don't understand that, we try to get intimacy sideways through sex, cheating,

control, attention, dating apps, status, sending one more incredibly sad. You up, text to somebody who's already emotionally moved to another zip code. So whether you're dating, married, divorced, widowed, heartbroken, touch-starred, or suspicious of your partner's work friend or in a currently committed relationship with your phone in a bag of trail mix, I hope this episode

gives you a better way to ask. What am I actually hungry for? As always, all things just

in Garcia will be on the website and the show notes. Advertisers deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show all at Jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Our networking course is over at six minute networking.com and I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jason Sanderson,

Robert Fogaddi, Tata Silascus, Ian Beard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others and the fee for the girlfriend experiences apparently 20 grand, but forwarding this episode to somebody who needs it is free and significantly less likely to show up on a credit card statement. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.