Courtney Love | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan - Free Transcript | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

I was confident after that.

I got cocky. I got cocky. I was confident. - First time I ever laid eyes on you,

“the memory I have is the shoulders kind of thrown back.”

- Yeah. - And this just the confidence. - I throw out 10,000 tangents so no one can get to me. - Sure. - Well, I've chased you down many rather than.

- I know Billy. Like this is terrifying. - My two memories of watching you play the owl on that night, you know, was the cool guitar stuff happening

and then this just never ending scream.

And what is the source of this? You link giving money for some else. - You're still mad. - I am. - Courtney, thank you for being on my podcast.

- Anytime, Billy Clarkon. - I love it. Okay, well, this is gonna be a hundred part series. - I know. - This is part one and two.

(laughs) - I know. - Okay, let's start here. - Okay. - I'm gonna jump around a little bit,

which I sure doesn't surprise you. - No, I do that too.

“- Let's talk a little bit about mom and dad.”

- Oh wow. - Wow. (laughs) - I just, my blood just ran cold. Oh my god, involved things. Porgon, okay.

Dad was an interesting guy.

- Yeah. - In the grateful dad world. - Yeah, and then in the Irish holy grail world. And in the LSD giving LSD to his child at the head aspect world,

you know, he's got a heroes journey as lame as he was. Oh, in the steep jobs, working at Apple before a new one world. And then getting fired from Apple, 'cause it wasn't yet like it.

And getting fired from like, he would attract like Peter Albin from the big brother, you know, Peter Albin, you do too. It's like a barrier.

- He's right in the holy. - Yeah, he was that guy. - Okay. - He was that guy. I don't think he's the guy that went to Texas.

You know, this stuff, you're like, "Aye, he didn't go to Texas and get Janice back like he was in big brother." - And my wrong? - I'm not, I'm not.

- We're just doing forensic all kinds. - I'm in the snob crowd that likes Janice without the holding company. - Me too, I thought they were really bad down. - That's so sudden there.

- So yeah, the recording in Chicago, you would know about that. - Yeah, it's a crap recording, obviously. It's hard to get through it. I understand, it's still gold.

The Peter Albin, if I'm not, my father... - Have you heard Janice Japanese? - It's very raw, her recordings early on, like 64 with Yarma, from... - That's one.

- From the airplane, they're called the typewriter tapes, because somebody's typing why they're singing. - I really, I heard them really raw. - It's her singing, it's her singing early blues with Jorma playing guitar.

- I've heard this stuff from Texas. - It's on Spotify, you can find it. - No, no, this is when she's in San Francisco, and she's like 18 years old. - Yeah, 'cause she went there twice.

- And people think the hate was this really great place. My memory of the hate aspirated, that my father gave me acid for about three to six, until my mother noticed, and he got his custody taken away, is that it was dank and dirty and awful,

and people weren't heroin. And so the whole and/or early math, right? So the whole summer of love thing, they just used the same footage over and over with two days in Golden Gate Park.

Not kidding. - Well, with the apotheosis, they had it. They actually got it on the table. - The whole film more thing was dark, and the jannis thing that tracks is that she ended up on smack, she ended up in sex work, tracks for me,

I get it, and then as you go back to Texas, twice. - Well, it is a Goldbrush town. - Fondike, absolutely.

- I always think the way towns were formed,

it never leaves third. - The land I know, you're right. You're right. - Like, look at Chicago. - You're right, you Mason. - You're right, you're free Mason, you're Mormon,

that the DNA thing is real. - No, it's okay, so let's talk about Mom a little bit. - She doesn't really have a hero's journey that I've figured out yet. Maybe she has to pass for me.

- Well, she just is, and she just like the classic white intellectuals, snobby therapists. - Yeah, but adoptive Irish Italians, who I adored, who can have children, who wanted a blonde, blue-eyed child. - There's no situation, but she was blonde and blue-eyed.

- It took some, 23 me to figure that one out. But she always was trying when she became a hippie. So she inherited a lot of money from the reseas, who I adored, it is said, 'cause my father's not credible. But if he was the treasure of bohemian growth,

but then my sister of show me the country house that I thought was the other way.

“It's in Russian, remember, it's right on.”

- Oh, I knew Russian, remember? - Oh, right on. - Right next to Gernville, right on. We mean growth, like it's a big old house with the naughty pine in the in-share.

They were really rich. They lived at 99 green street in the entire penthouse. Dormons, mates, my mother had a maid, which lived in the avonistine modell.

Then we would get up at five a.

My stepfather's boots, who was a garbage man with newspapers. So I'm pretty class neutral, 'cause I've been all the things. - No, I really am, I've been up to the sounds. My mother inherited a lot of money.

And they met, my mother and father met at a dizzy Gillespie after party. My mother was kind of a good of a groupie. She had fur coat, hot pants, looks a little like Mary Ann Fateful.

And all her friends at Kherbestrom was Abigail Fulger, let's start there. Oh, yeah, okay.

“I mean, honestly, I didn't know that Manson lived in San Francisco”

when I read that book chaos, the scales felt them my eyes.

Because there's erasas, all of this first children

were with like pedoluma money, women, pedoluma, and then I was like, there's just no difference between the murderers and the murderers in this world of mind. And also the MK Ultra Child, this is on social media.

I thought MK Ultra was Kuna. - No, no, this is totally different. - It's real. - I mean, my father was too stupid to be a spook. - You ever see the stuff where they say

that you've been just since in an MK Ultra kit? - Come on. We're all MK Ultra that you, people in the Midwest probably aren't, but we all are. - Well, you may not remember this,

but you used to say, way, way back in the day, you've got to be Jewish to me. - Yeah, and I was like, no, I'm not. - To you? - Yeah, I thought you had the people...

- I do have, I do have some blood in there. - All right. - Well, I'm married to a Jew and I'll get your Jews.

- The Chinese, you though.

As my friend said, when he found it, I was in love with the Chinese Jew,

“he said to you, make her an a test tube.”

- For you, yeah, dynasties, dynasties. - Dynasties. - Dynasties. - It's really interesting being with a woman who's steeped both because one side is Polish Russian. - Okay.

- And we know how that rolls. - Yeah. - Like you will not kill us. - Yeah. - And we're gonna win no matter what.

- Right. - And the other side is dynastic. It's really interesting being with those bloodlines. - Five thousand years off. - We know what we're doing.

- Yeah, absolutely. - Dynasties. - Yeah, it's all about the family. - Yeah. - It's all about billing, so it took me a while to figure out

because you know, in the American ethos, a woman of ambition, it's like, oh, they just want your money. - A client. - And Eastern woman, the money is money. - It's a dental.

- No, I want to, I want to rule the world. - Yeah. - You know, tracking that,

“and recently, River Murdoch cut some kids out of his will,”

but I knew this would happen. He put the Wendy Dang Murdoch his back in. I was like, yeah, I knew that. Just to throw Wendy Dang Murdoch. He was married to a very ambitious from Heartscrabble.

- Okay. - A woman named Wendy Dang, and she was Tunis. - Oh, do you remember them? - Yeah, she became a translator. And I mean, this woman was,

people were really pissed off at her. I loved it. I loved it. I like her. Like, yeah.

And then they got a divorce, over some weird. And then she had two kids. I have two daughters. He kicked some kids out of his will, and he put those daughters back in.

- Yeah. - By nastick. Of course, you were referred to the LSD times. But I don't remember it. And also, I went to neurologist at King's College

at Burial College London. And my friend knew this neurologist. I didn't want to find out any of the bad stuff that happens when toddlers brains. But I wanted to find out the good stuff.

And it wasn't just San Francisco people that does their toddlers and kids. It was a lot of Brits, a lot of Brits did it too. And she said, I said, what's the commonality with us?

That's a little tribe of LSD toddlers. And she said, and kids too, young kids, like, under 10. And she said, well, you all are pretty chaotic. And sometimes you're really OCD controlling. And you're all really open-minded.

I'm like, yeah, I know there's that. (laughing) I was like, kind of no more information, but I was pleased with those two. - It would seem though, I mean, I didn't have that experience

not that I know if my father was constantly smoking weed. So I was stone half of my childhood. - Right. - But you liked it. You liked the psychedelic, what I meant.

You liked a mushroom?

- When we first met in the early '90s,

it was a lot of LSD. - Yeah. - Mushroom's less. - I liked that about you, though. You were very, like, a lot of y'all

with your bell around your neck. You were, like, exploring in what the vacuum. Loddy-duh. - Well, I came from such a colorless world that the throat and the gates too.

- And the sky was made of album. - That's sure. - I mean, you're very colorful when I say it. - But I'm saying, it was like, oh, there's this other thing. I'd felt it in literature by reading, you know,

whether. - Well, look at this palette that you chose. It's like a movie pink, a summary goal. - Estrologically, I'm moving heavy into Venus right now. We can talk about that all the time.

- Wow, okay. - Nice thing is my daughter has the same thing in her chart. - Oh, really? - So we share this, it's coming for me.

It's an emerging love of color and smell and food.

- I've never had this boy with that.

- I've never had it in my whole life. - You all, you know, you had color now. - No, no, no, but, but I'm saying is it wasn't from here. It was an aesthetic attraction, but it didn't come for me. - Oh, I felt like it was super genuine.

You know what, though, with the music,

“with the musicality, I think that that's maybe what sold it.”

And then as you progress, like Madame Azizus, I was like, wait, he's into tea and the cats and the wrestling, I love your, and your house. That house, that house isn't. Regency, no, it's pre-regency, jewel box.

- Yeah. - I've been in that house for you, we're on a very green couch playing Xbox, and I was like, "I got a carpet." And you look like Bob Gelled up in the wall.

You didn't you like this? - Yeah. - Let's get up this very stiff couch. It was not comfortable. - Yeah.

- And immediately, so we're decorating the Christmas tree. What? He's like Bob Gelled up in the wall. (laughing) - That's what it felt like.

- Yeah, that house is crazy, beautiful. Like I saw Oprah's house. I saw that architect Rowe, your house is very wet. It's weathering heights. Didn't I say that you then?

- You did. - That November, I don't know what year, it was not sometime early or something. - I think I at some point I invited you to come back and stay and you said,

"I don't, I'm scared of Ms. Haversham or something." - No, it's smoking, so I don't do any more. I was scared of smoking in there, and I was beautiful. It was on the lake. It was, it was no waste.

- We're still there. - Christmas was like raging wind. I was watering hikes. - I'm pointing these details out not to dive down the rabbit hole of them.

You're welcome too, but like a lot of our generation, you got divorces and, you know, - F. - Huh? - Daph.

- Not a Daph. - Good times. - Good times. - So it begins this period. I think, if my memory serves as eight or nine,

'cause I went back and refreshed my memory. But, you know, eight or nine, your life goes from whatever it was to suddenly, you know, you're going to Eugene and Portland, - Oh, me.

- Yeah, there's different now. There's different step dads and, you know, I think it's not exclusive to us that, that happened.

“That's why when I went to the neurologist,”

there was a bunch of kids at LSD. It made me feel good. - Oh, yeah. - But as I like to say, you know, we grew up with that boomer, those boomer parents,

who were more, my joke is, they were more obsessed with cocaine and yoga. - Or weed and yoga. - Sure, but I'm saying we all were kind of the byproducts of this.

- Yeah, like that's key kids or kids, parents. - Too much Gilligan's island, you know? - Yeah, no, we went there, and our parents like that's garbage, 'cause they were like, you told me about your dad

having like long hair and a fur coat and a purse. Something like, I hear that. - I also suspect that. - Family too, by the way. - Family too.

- Family too. - Did you have a Camaro in high school? - Yes. - Okay, that's like put to it a whole privilege. - But I almost burned the room.

- That's slow down. - I didn't even find that Camaro in one. I just wanna get it right. - I inherited the family 1975 Camaro, which my dad later stole from me.

- Okay. - They signed over the title. - Oh, color was your Camaro. - It's silver. - Black interior. - Wow, that's hard.

- I'll let you imagine what went on in the background. - Yeah, I mean, lucky you. That's a score card. - I have an amazing story that I can't tell here. I can't tell you about the Camaro.

- Okay. - I mean, it's an amazing story.

It's why I've never told public.

- I'm taking up my busy being it really is the setting me. - So, I guess I'm just pointing at the fact that, you know, so begins this disassociative life of different people and mom getting divorced and having her visit to lunch. - Which leads to,

okay, hypervigilance bills. - They're both, they're both in there. - From living it, I mean, I'm here. But, but it strikes me that, you know, it arcs a particular way, which is, let's call it not good.

- Yeah. - You know, chaotic and not good. - Foster home group. - No, I chose that. I chose that. - Can you explain that then? - Okay, I was safer.

Well, I heard the runaways and they were really glazing juvenile. And I started to kind of investigate without a internet and actually, it was a good gig. Because I was safer there.

I was safer there than I was in any part of my biological or stepfamily.

“- And what was unsafe about your biological family?”

- I just didn't like it. And I mean, you say that when like, as a kid, it's not like I just didn't like it or come, I didn't know how to form that yet. But I was scared, most of the time.

I was scared and was it emotional just now? - Yeah, I was really abandoned in that family. I knew I didn't like my mother. I knew it was bad match, does I like to say? You know, I didn't like it.

- You guys have never really had any kind of warmth there, right?

- No, no, it was, I'm glad I was born. I'm glad she had me. - I'm glad I was here to raise her. And I just wanted to get away.

Did you be things seem glamorous

and like a good gig? And honestly, most of it was, most of it was those hippies in Oregon,

“not in the Central Park, not when I was in the Hill Cross Park,”

but I turned myself in over nothing over shoplifting or kiss t-shirt. That's not untrue. At a wall where to see you know, I had to walk out with the kiss t-shirt three times

to get caught at the wall where I said, "Lights in or in Eugene." You know, "Lights in or Portland," sorry. Oh, I was in Portland because kiss was playing the enormous dome and I thought just like a walk in there

that I could just walk in without, so I had this t-shirt that was resonated with this show

and I got arrested after the third time.

It's like I'm not getting in that show. I just kind of feeling, let's try this cheapy thing. And I got arrested. I wouldn't give my, that was in Portland. My mother had a very fancy lawyer who came up

from San Francisco with her because she had so much money. So she had her own lawyer in Eugene. His name was Jeff and he came to pick me up after I finally gave my name.

“I think he said something to me, but I was like,”

and then I did something again so I could get, I don't even know where I was put. Not with my mother. She was in New Zealand at the time. But her lawyer was still around, young guy.

And I did something else to get in. Oh, also I was with her, Guro, who was getting a fortune. I knew I had a trust fund. Not a big one. I hate saying trust fund because people assume it's huge.

Like five and a bucks a month from grab a jack. Like when you're kid, that's still a lot of money. It's a fortune. And it enabled me to come to England. It enabled me to, with my best friend Robin,

like live in Liverpool. It enabled me to go up to London. It enabled me to con them a lot and see my real father in Ireland, Dublin. It enabled me to do long with stripping.

But you know, that's also not the reason. They're not, they're yet. So Michael's son was this guy's name. And he was my mother, Guro. And he'd come up from San Francisco also to live on her

but also ended up doing Gestalt therapy with my teachers. I peeked down and see my teachers naked. That was horrific. Like they all fell into this cult thing with my mother from my Montessori school.

So yeah, he was, he was a really gay guy. And he, when I came back from New Zealand because I was kicked out of boarding school, he was, he took me in. My mother was going to send me to this place.

I saw the pamphlet for emotionally messed up children. I saw the pamphlet, there was a kid on the front. And we stopped into Heady and I got Michael's son to take me on if he could build my chest phone, well, it was far go.

Okay, I wasn't going that place. Yeah. So I was 10. You, okay. And I lived here for for not quite two years.

I lied that I was 12 when I went. Do you live in where? With Michael's son in Eugene, Oregon. Okay, but stop there for a second. Okay.

Because of my son's 10 now. Oh wow. 10. What's your self? What's your self perception at 10?

Did you think you were a good kid?

“I just understood, like, what's the, what have you done?”

Just like sad and abandoned, like, so you go back and you have a whole fantasy construct for your personality, like, oh, I said, um, or, oh, I could understand sarcasm. Yeah. You can't. So I don't know really what happened to that kid, because the kid is really hard now,

hard, funny, reflective, all the things, but, you know, you're not thinking about what grown up, I mean, the sex stuff was appalling. And then my mother put me on drugs, so she put me on valium in New Zealand, and then Riddle in, and, you know, I'm in 12 step, but you're in Riddle in, can you imagine? Oh my God, the one, everyone tries to chase that first tie.

I can't remember any, but one, which is the most beautiful spring as Eugene Morgan.

They have Daphne, which is a really ugly shrub, but if you've never smelled Daphne, you

know nothing. You know, all these women named Daphne and England, I'm like, but you don't know what it smells like. And Eugene, because it's in the Malamate Valley and the HOH Valley in Washington, that is like the most, the old, I think this is the oldest rainforest in the world, and, you

know, people from Yale come up to the HOH and hike it, and they end up in Aberdeen Washington afterwards, like, it's both things, plus Newtrol, I'm saying. So, you know, whenever, you know, I read a book on roses and Portland roses used in every English rose that they do at like Hugh Barton's, they have to make some hearty. The Duchess of Cornwall rose, but I have a lot of Camilla roses in my backyard.

I love Camilla. She probably took more than me, so, like, she's the queen. I kind of just dig it, so I have in celebration, I have, he's roses from her, but it's half-tortland rose. I was like, what?

And then they read this book on roses, it's like this thing. It's like the history of roses. But anyway, in spring, Eugene Oregon bursts, bursts, jazzmen, honey, suck all, road agenda, Camilla.

I've never seen anything like it again, and I looked outside Michael's son's house.

And, you know, this is like, 77, he's getting 2,000 bucks a month for me, doing nothing.

This is building up.

Annex. I'm lots of boys are coming through, and he had wheat, and he had valiant, so I grew six great, seventh grade, with the wheat and the valiant to make friends, like I didn't know what to do. That's when I came back, and I had a bit of a New Zealand accent.

I was really into the base of the rollers, like the base of the rollers were this, and I had tartan at the bottom of my pants, and not because I'm cool. It wasn't Bowie, I didn't know who Bowie was yet. He had been on top of the pop, so for there, the rollers, like, eight weeks old, because there were not satellites back then.

So, anyway, I had this Bowie haircut, but it was, it was the base of the rollers haircut. So, um, yeah, I can hear the dogs just apply, I didn't hear them. You weren't here. That's fine. Anyway, um, sorry, and I got really picked on, like, I got to be down to me a few times,

with these donor girls, like they had lens out from bell buckles, and they were cool,

“but there was no Abba in America, that freaked me out, where's the Abba?”

Yeah. I mean, my first literal head orgasm was to water. Have you seen the Abba documentary? That's out. No, but the ABC has, like, 10 Abba documentary.

Right.

But this one that's just come out, and they never actually got that big in America.

That's part of the documentary. It's what I'm telling you. Like dancing, going to say. Which is it? Wow.

Like there was a single week in New Zealand. By the way. Oh, they were huge in New Zealand. I was trying New Zealand was the biggest part for them, actually. Like they were bigger than they were in UK, and the BBC documentaries I've seen, there's

one just an Agnitha. Did you know that before she joined Abba, she wrote a song to kick the Beatles off of the sweetest charts and the whole Nordic charts. I had to have a listen to her early solo work. I mean, it's very, like, beer hall, Kitchie, like they did that kind of beer hall.

And she has one of the great voices of all time. Yeah. And what a voice. My head orgasm was water blue, and, like, you know, rockets, like, you can drop a needle anywhere on SLS and it's perfect.

I'm with that, but also. Yeah, that was more S-A-T-E-Y-D-A-Y, and that song is great. That's one of the great songs of all time. I don't know who wrote it, but that song is, Kitchie. It might not have been Mickey Mouse might have been involved with them.

Okay. They were from Deneaton. Do you know Mickey Mouse does a producer? He's good on that, right? I hear another name.

Mickey Mouse? Mickey Mouse? Well, he was, he was Donovan Yardbirds' animals. Yeah. That guy was the amateur type to kick, you know, bass players off.

Like, you know what I mean? I don't know about that.

But the thing about Mickey Mouse, he was the first producer to figure out that a song

was like a mini movie. Right. He was a Donovan connected, right? I don't know, but he had a lot of influence in, and I don't think people have connected the dots.

“I think he had a lot of influence on the Beatles thinking that way, because he started”

doing that before the Beatles started doing it. Like a mini movie? Yeah, that is song was like a mini movie. So when you think of like, when you think of some of those great animal songs, it's like you're in a certain room.

It's not just the animals being the animals. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's like, they set the scene. And then we go up there.

The cinematic. Rob Russell on them. We get to Sergeant Pepper. And I said, you know, you're talking about four track recording. Yeah.

So in order to achieve atmosphere, you've got maybe one or two chances to do it within the realm of a recording. It's not like now where you can lay a bunch of sitters. You've got to kind of pick one thing to kind of denote a static vibe. I saw Chris Martin giving a war to George Martin one time.

I don't know what it was on because there's not a day that goes by. I don't think of a George Martin. I know. I don't think about what? I didn't believe them.

Okay, basically rollers were great.

They were, and Rock are more love letter. Was also great. I've come for me, but I got beat up, and I'll take it and beat up seven great junior high. I've come from fourth form in the English British Commonwealth education.

I knew some Latin. I knew some French bird verbs. I knew how. How did you start your Shakespeare education? Yes, I had, and I definitely had, and the other blessing about Oregon is the best Shakespeare

festival probably in America is in National d'Organ. And so I had gone there a few times as a little camp, so I'd already done that. I'd bagged a little Shakespeare, and then, you know, the British Commonwealth education. And then the girls with the leadcephal and Bill Puck was a nice. There was no need for what I knew.

“That's why Nick K. is handwriting is so interesting.”

That's what I infected you with, and your handwriting is so interesting. Thank British Commonwealth education in New Zealand. I'm not kidding. Like that handwriting that they teach you, it's called something I forget. Proper ink, proper pen, like, Bill, in seventh grade in Eugene, Oregon.

Collaborative. You're talking to me. No, it's called something I'm forgetting because my brain is. There's isn't, I've watched a few of these podcasts and your vocabulary is deathly. And I was like, how am I going to spar with this guy?

You're fine.

Okay.

So, how do we get from girls with Bill Puck was beating you up to DJ punk rock?

I'll tell you how.

“There's one thing, a one girl beating me up, and that was my birth other than the scream”

and the knee up. That was my birth. Tracy Shannon was my birth. Big girl. Big girl.

I've been beat up twice. The whole school was pretty. Pretty fair. No. Pretty much about to be not a pretty face for whatever reason.

And I'm in the bathroom in fourth form, it's a fourth form, whatever lunch there's two lunches. These twins, all in rabbit for coats, these, these girls, Desiree, these other girls. You call me, you know, I didn't, you call me a liar, me, me, me, me, I was pushing around. And I was reading one of those mahadras where the same is as mahadras Indian shirts I was living

with the guru and a seventh grade of living with the guru and the whole school star. And I'm little. I'm scrappy. I don't have tits. I'm scrappy, right?

But I'm beat up twice and Tracy Shannon comes for me. I don't know what happened, Billy, but I'm on top of her, I see red and they're pulling me off. Like I win this fight, but then some.

So this temper emerges to defend myself as a first time that happened.

So when you asked about self conception, it was just being victimized and I didn't understand it. So I don't understand sarcasm, I don't have a moment, I said Tracy Shannon was my moment. And now I be in jail, whatever I did, but like she was beat me up as much bigger. And that was the birth of my temper.

And I was confident after the, I got cocky, I got cocky, I was confident. I even carried a hunting knife for the other girls, like the, the black, the girls from the reservation. And like, you know, these other girls ended up going to the same way because the first time I ever laid eyes on you, the memory I have is the shoulders, kind of thrown back.

Yeah. And this just the confidence came from beating up Tracy Shannon.

“Okay, but I'm saying, you know, you remember the ranks of the indie girls back in the”

day. Yeah. They were hardly like charismatic. So the charisma thing probably is my own thing. No, I get that, but I'm saying it.

But the beat up Tracy Shannon, but I'm saying, yeah, I was gone from there. I was like, I'm, yeah, but again, you know, where I was, but I was somewhere. I'm, I'm having a, I'm my own moment. Okay. Now, one here.

No, shoulders back, you know, you have great shoulders. Yeah. You know what I mean? You have this beautiful kind of carriage and just this kind of confidence, this rare for the time, you know, all the girls growing up listening to Susie were not confident

women. They were more puny, too. They were smaller. Well, there was the coquettish version, there was the, I'm not really a lesbian, but I'm a lesbian.

Right. You know, there was the skin. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the pretty, the pretty, the pretty skin head girl. Okay.

“You know, you, you'd, you'd be like, why are you skin head, you're pretty?”

You know what I was like? Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? They're wearing a lot of like charismatic shoulders back, but you met me after I started

my band.

I had to do in the mines first, like I had to, well, we're getting there.

I crushed the competition, if you will, because it was only, it was room for only one back then. It was like, even the 80s, there was, the bangles, the go-go, there was only room for one. And now we're just, in the 90s, we're just coming out of that. Sure.

And now, I was going to take one thing, like with Emerald Finnell, or Marco Robbie, those women are young enough to be real feminists and like, make a list of those. You know what I mean? Like, you know, we weren't my generation. Well, I guess what I'm after here.

But I was demanded to be in, I was like, you know, sure, but you're smart enough to figure out what I'm after here, which is like, you know, people look at one end of the telescope, and they see a rank contour and auto-control child, you know, and, you know, they're, they're the easy threads, which is kind of stupid, right? That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. So, I want people to understand there's a layer of sophistication here that has to do with somebody making decisions in some cases by an area in other cases more complicated. But builds, builds the machine of you. So when you've voiced yourself onto the public consciousness, it's shocking.

But if you know the story, it's actually not that sharp. No, it's much more nuanced than the cheap, that's kind of what I'm after. And it's more complex, as you said, like, usually when I talk to somebody, even a Mark Marlom, the one podcast said, there's a new I've ever done, and it wasn't visual. And I throw out 10,000 tangents, so no one can get to me, and I've done that for a long

time. Sure. Well, I've chased you down many revs. I know, Billy. Like, this is terrifying.

This one's a little scary. Nothing but love. Nothing but love. As I once told you, you name yourself a love for a reason. I mean, and that's where made me, too, because he had that Robert and Gianna, a little

love thing from Darby, and I wanted to be loveless, because he felt more honest. And he was like, no, there's two words, people love, free and love.

They're like, this, this, and then I kind of got into it, and then he gave my...

this, Tom Rock, LA weekly column, L UV, but as a first to my name was in print, and I'm like, yeah, I'm going with it. This is great. But I did like it. And it sounded like porn stuff.

I was like, yeah, no, this is cool. It contradicts.

“Okay, so 14, 15, 16, 17, you're on your way to, to the, which was weird.”

Okay, there's, okay, there's, you go into Jupee, but there's also you showing up in England. Well, the counselors in Eugene were really cool. In the course of one month, this is crazy. Three men, all men, one in return from England, they were all in, at Skipworth, two of the Skipworths were credit at college.

So these guys were like deadheads, cool guys, they brought me, one guy brought me Paddy Smith back from England, along with Christie Hind and Squeez to say, Squeez was third one. Good lyrics. Absolutely, because these remind me of you. And they let me sit in the day room.

And you know, the Tuesday and Thursday was the jean change and everyone for the tightest jeans. After that, I went for the looses, I stopped caring. And it blew my mind, like these two women looked amazing. I like the Squeez record too.

And then another guy gives me horses, like this reminds me of you. I was like, what the hell? And then I looked, I'm like, okay, and then my foster father, Kenny, I was looking at the Buckingham Knicks record he had.

And he always slept, he was a real, he was a real, what sort, good with the ladies.

And he was beautiful. And the old, like, these thin gold chains and this blonde hair, doing a Stevie thing. And I looked at Buckingham Knicks, I was like, and then Kenny and Rubson, like this reminds me of you. Torses again.

So I'm holding Stevie Knicks and Lindsey and one hand and Paddy and the other, there it is. And there it is, there it is, one hand and each. And also when I came back from New Zealand, Stevie was on, it flew back up on the radio with dreams and it was reassuring that one woman was on the radio, because I went from Abba, kind of being my mother's, to Stevie being my mother.

It was super, it was the year I've never lonely boy was on the radio, Shannon, but the dog was on the radio.

“Like I remember in the top 40 at the time, I was also, listen, it's 6th grade.”

I started listening to Casey Casey some religiously and then Dr. Demento to do this after Casey Casey. And Dr. Demento liked a little bit of new wave and punk. The first time I heard the tubes don't touch me there was Dr. Demento. And I was remembering a lot of Zappa, yeah, he did, and I didn't understand Zappa at all, but

the other way. I just didn't, when I did a lot of drugs one time and they were kind of downers, I lined up Zappa, he's, the reasons they've made fresh, cold train, I don't mean to be cliche. Ming is, I was like, I'm going to listen to difficult music on smack and I'm going to be honest, I can hear it for once and then I can hear it anymore.

You're not big, I'm difficult music. No. I can do trout mass breakfast, I just find thank you for it. Thank you.

But no, I can't do jazz, I can't, it's so complex for me and I just never understood the

codes of it. I know when it's beautiful, I know what jazz is and I know what good jazz is. That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, if you understand the roots of jazz, it actually makes a toss. Oh, you know, actually, I wish I understood it. Yeah, but it's one of those things where you're not really sure if you're listening because you're supposed to listen or you're listening because you enjoy it. That's right.

That's right. That's right. And I'd rather be honest about it. You know, the low max build recordings, that's that love, who would it gets to jazz and it lost.

And why should I bother with something that I don't understand or pretend that I do? Yeah. Trying to be in a lot of trouble. I think you would enjoy West Coast Jazz. What's that?

Who's that? That's Jerry Mowigan and even Charlie Parker used to come out here and do sessions.

“I think that's what you would most resonate.”

Chet Baker is probably the thing you would most understand because you know I was trying to win shorter and just pass. Oh, God bless.

He was a really, it was Buddhist and I always had, and I still have access to herbie and

God. And those guys play with miles. Yeah. But the West Coast iteration of jazz, I think, is what you would most-- So, Chet Baker.

Well, Chet Baker's the thing that the Gost like. I like Chet Baker. The Gost like Chet Baker for some reason, probably because he was on smash. And he was beautiful. And also, the funny Valentine is amazing.

Beautiful cat, but obviously, a troubled, but that world, that 50s, so cow, because you got to understand swing down, okay, but form follows function. Okay. Could you just play that to me? Okay.

So I'm done. Imagine you're Charlie Parker. You are the number one Bob Guy in the world. Right. You're a total savant.

Yeah. You come out and you're playing some place in Pasadena, and everybody's just chill. The music is more chill. You can't be Charlie Parker, New York Charlie Parker, because they're so sensitive. He goes more to the waves and the vibe.

So he's still doing something. You're back when it is.

That what form follows?

He said he just didn't, I don't want to be done, but I don't, never to send up phrase.

Okay, you're playing a club, 1955, you're playing some club in Santa Monica, and it's a beautiful night. You know how this world is out here? Yeah, it's a little much better. Nobody wants to go to Holland when you go to Holland.

No one wants to spoil the party. So the music is reflective of the vibe that they're in.

“Remember playing the party, so on those Dutch people?”

It's like, there's so chill at the, do you do? Like, no, you just play slow songs, because they're just, they're just like, no, well, you know what I would do. We would play more aggressive. I know me too.

I'm too upset. Me too, too upset. You want me both, baby. The Dutch, man. And then, you know, you go to the Nordics, and they love death metal.

They want you, they, the Norway, they know what I'm saying. What are you saying? They're going to do. I think they're wrong. They're inside.

They're inside. They don't have, like, they don't have great societies, but they don't have, like, rebellion coded in there. Okay. Let's keep live.

Okay, sorry. I actually was listening to live-ock recently. Really?

You know, the first, you remember the first thing you ever said to me, it was supposed to

make me contrarian. I was like, oh my God, I knew he'd do this. You're like, what do you think of this? The first thing you ever said? What do you think of English?

I can't even say anything. English. Mom's doing. Yeah, mom's saying. I was like, you know what?

I'm not biting. Not doing this. No. I totally understood what you were doing. Trying to alienate a girl, right?

Like, a girl. And I love this. This, whatever. I was playing it now. This is the gear show.

And I was like, I have nothing.

“And then I was like, I remember, I called them the Bristol or something.”

But I remember the, um, Billson, the Billson. And I was at this Tuesdays. She's a producer's house just singing that vocal that we, that you helped me with for the other Billy's like the world of Billy's. Um, and uh, I saw that she had a new Billson.

I'm like, I won now. I won now. I call it a baker, but I won. Because Vincent. Vincent.

Vincent. It's Vincent. Okay. But I knew what it was. She's referencing the, the famous, uh, oil.

It's not that famous. It's like a corvary famous. Well, if you know your Floyd history, it is famous. Uh, that's what we said. That's what Chris Barres said.

It's what Dave Gilmore and Richard Wright, the, the, the, the, the, uh, piano, keyboard player used to use to create that. But is that what they call the album metal? That I don't know. Because it's not, isn't it, okay, is it the beta of the, the VHS sort of,

is it the beta of real surreal? No. Why not? It makes sense to me. It's like a cassette on metal.

Am I wrong? Uh, it's, it's different for, yes. I'm trying to be a gear head. You're not doing it. That's suck.

Um, so the whole boy, I feel like leans like that. Right. No, far. I don't mean to tangent, but I want to tell you one shot leads. Because we'll sergeant is on my record shredding, but it's we'll sergeant shredding.

And he's talking about the record that you're still working on at the time of this recording. Yeah. First album and how many years? 16.

Sure. Okay. That's Robert Smith took that along. I was around for the last one. Yep.

You helped me with Samantha. I also knows if he'll have a song. But anyway, um, one day, just this for nobody's daughter. It will happen. Um, and then even then we'll sergeant plays from the bodyman who I met in

in one, which is crazy. Dreams come true, man. Um, and uh, what can we say is a mutual echo appreciation site society. When the greatest bands. I couldn't be more and also the deep cuts.

“What I would do honestly, and what I wanted to do, somebody pitched a movie to me about”

me and Robin being in Liverpool and the lens of two teenage American girls. Being in Liverpool. It's a really great film idea. It's like my almost famous. I really wanted to get it made in any event.

And I think that like a mama meal level for not just our generation, but Millennials at this point, but Gen Z. I really understand Gen Z is okay. Online is I like them. I really like them.

I see there's something like you. I like them. I like them first. I like them first. And then they like me.

I am the moment. Me and Charlie XX, but in any event.

Um, I want you to read because Will Sergeant just is incredible.

I don't think he's ever played outside the bunnyman other than his solo stuff. Maybe. I'm wrong. I think you're generally directionally accurate. Yes.

Something like that. And I mean, because I would know. Well, this. And if you said to me, where can I heal Will Sergeant not on the bunnyman, I would go? Will is solo records.

And I don't know. So that's. He's trying to make some soundclouds of his scoring stuff. It's astonishing. I said to push Walker and my manager, J.D.

The producer, Pat Walker, and in any of the lead thing, when I heard J.D. and Vorrow. Okay. Not on Jane says, um, from J.D. X and not. Not on Jane says, but on Ocean song. Or I said, and I met him, and I'm like, you're from the valley.

I can tell by your leads. He wasn't, but he's from Bella on the tip. The valley side of Bella.

I got to say.

And that's where he's from.

“So I guess his geography from his leads.”

Okay. Like, leads are a guy thing. I don't, there are women that can do leads great. That generally.

Yes, you, you, you, you, you, one of the first

significant conversations we had about music. You said, I don't understand what you're doing on the guitar. Why do you have to. What is with this? I think your leads are phenomenal.

No, but I'm saying your leads are special. And your base play is insane. But you, but you wanted to understand. Not so much you were castigating me for plain leads, which is what most indie people did,

which is they weren't cool. You were like, you were like, you were like, the get, you know, the gish one on right now sources when I would, they go, okay, we'll stay with them, you know, get, they were hats, but we'll stay.

And I was in the one van that Eric, we've got with Mr. everybody that we're touring in. And I was listening to gish and I heard right now sources, like, to this day, I play right now sources for kids. And I'm like, this is the perfect rock song.

This is it. This is it. And your leads were, your base was insane. The bridge was insane. The other day I didn't like Austin,

I didn't believe I want this. What's the title? 'Cause it's a pun.

I was like, oh my god, this boy needs word.

That's early psychedelic. I was thinking, okay, now that I know that, I can let it go. It's been a little resentment. Why do you call that?

I know why you call that. She knows the nose the very, yeah. But the rest is perfect, flawless song. I was like, what? Your base is flawless.

“And you, I really think your base is a great string.”

And then your leads. Except when you're waking off with them. But that's different. The beautiful, the best stuff. I've been listening to Melancholy recently in the opening track.

Is that kind of funeral for a friend thing? The composition you were like on. Yeah. And yeah. Y'all would be proud.

That was amazing. Melancholy was amazing. So I get the track you were on. But leads are kind of male. Very male.

On the mass. It's you. It's hard to be. It's changed a bit. There were a lot of phenomenal young female guitar players.

Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot of female. Everything right now, which is great. Great.

There were more. More. More better. And our gen, like I feel like it was way more repatiously competitive. And you had to be to succeed.

There was no other system at will. Because if anybody would romanticize the 90s as a more egalitarian time. They don't know what the guitar is. An issue and and and horrific. Mineness of the indie community at that time.

Which both of us have had our sort of battles with. I mean, you know, I'm friends with the first and more now. Speaking of gatekeepers. Well, he's like mellow. He got a thought.

He's like a son bear. But look. Out of captivity. But hold on one second. I barely know thirst.

And I mean, I didn't know I'm barely. Okay.

But he was never a gay keeper type.

No. The partner was the worst. She was the worst. And she kind of still is like. Oh, she's still rocking the gay keeping.

I know you and her book. This is so hilarious. I'm I'm friendly with Lana Del Rey. In fact, I want me to really good friends. And then she put me in her house in Malibu for a year,

rent for you like what the hell. Also, she was really great. It helped me get out of town because I need to get out of the lot. And I had bad people around me. And she could play them because she's like,

got this upper middle class thing as well. So she could play these. Guys, that were really harming my life. Want to hear something that you don't know. Okay.

So my wife's brother. My wife has five brothers. Okay. One full and four half. Okay.

Uh, had a kind of romantic moment with her. Yeah. She was sort of obsessed with them and then eventually goes to them. What does he do? Uh, he's out here working, you know.

Okay. Okay. That's great. So we have funny that there's this. Yeah.

I never met her. I know. She's been a fantastic girl. She's obviously very bright. She's a real friend.

You know, she done things for me. That nobody's ever done in our business, particularly in other woman. And any event on Kim wrote about Lana Del Rey. She's no, in her book. Like, she says horrible things about me being a tarantula stuff.

But like a narcissistic Hollywood obsessed around. Oh, Kim, I'm so scared of spiders. I was shooting something else. Like, a no bear. Maybe I'll take a bear eagle.

I'll take a eagle. And in any event, uh, she puts down Lana. She calls her all these names because Lana and one of her very few early interviews. She still doesn't know many now. Said, I wish I was dead.

She was 27. She said, I wish I was dead. She named 27 girls. And my daughter, Francis, like, raised it on Twitter. And then logs like, I'm so sorry.

And now they're friends. They were friends when Kim wrote this. And she called and then turned defensive it.

“She didn't know Lana Del Rey and Lana was like, who is Kim Gordon?”

Tell me of their generation. Did not go up. Okay. A question by the way, billions are still asking. Maybe not so many millions, because I don't think she has.

I don't know what's billions. Yeah. Okay. She was really horrible in the 90s. She was really, I remember in Holland.

I was hanging out with you.

And, and they were so mean. And it was like, like, I did. Yes, I came in there.

“I came into their dressing room because we were all playing this festival.”

Yeah. Kurt was playing to. Yeah. And then I was playing. Yeah.

That was a big deal. I was playing. I was. You were. You were.

You were. You were. You were. I didn't leave with them. But I came in.

I was a fan. And I came into pay my respects. And I was treated so. Really. I was.

That was the beginning. You know the. The lyric from Kurt, which is. Yeah. You prices advice.

Hey, wait. I got a new. Ever. Help me finish it. Oh, my God.

He says. No, no, no. It's the lyric. I mean, what the actual. I'm so sorry.

I've never. Oh, my God. Hey, wait. Then you go. Never.

And debt to your prices advice. That's about Kim. That's literally about Kim. And there's a. He was so bad at her.

He was because, you know, his whole thing was. Kurt's whole thing was. He. Believe it or not. He hit his light.

What you know this under a bushel for please because. One Seattle, which he wasn't from. Two. Yeah. And he politics.

He wasn't from Seattle.

And when I first saw Nirvana in Portland, Oregon.

There was Jason. This. This. Houston. No, Jason.

They. They never meant right. Yeah, I know Jason. And he was he had long hair, like a soundbark guy. And I watched her at the little club, concentrate.

I got turned. He's. Fender all the way down. I saw. I'm not stupid.

I saw it.

“That's what led to me and him having interactions.”

I was like, you think guitar player. I get it. Right. And a whole thing. But that wasn't that was the Seattle element.

And I didn't know till I hung out with them. I about the came out. I know I was started by Kim so scared that I had to write her a letter kissing her ass. To get. You don't go for the husband.

The cool husband. You go for. The wife. And she produced my first album. So it's to her eternal.

You remember what you paid her because she told me. I can't remember. It was done important. She never came back. She came by once for 10 minutes.

You said you said you gave her six grand and a bag of pot. Just on right. Yeah. She was she from LA. And I went to it there once when I was so social.

Whether I went with her once to her father's house. And the whole thing is about she's from Culver City like Jennifer Finch. But the whole and father was. You see a late professor. I don't give it to him.

It's time. But the important thing is that her brother was a junkie. I think that made her. I don't know what made her permit art made her furnishes. She was really a bad force in the whole thing.

You know, we've ever attracted to the band, son of kids. I loved what they were doing with the guitars. I loved the graphics. The graphics. Yeah.

And the drummer. Can't even know. No, the drummer. I forgot. Bill.

I forgot. I'll live on alert. Just now. Don't ask me. But the drummer.

The drummer and and Thurston were always super nice and very friendly.

And you know, you know how it is. You got the generational politics. They're in older bands. Yeah. Which seems, you know, they're probably 30.

But, you know, when you're 24. They're the next generation. Yeah. So the drummer and Thurston were always super nice. Yeah.

And when it's your any questions. I talked to Thurston about gear.

“You know, like I remember talking to Thurston.”

I was like your head. Yeah. About how how they travel with their guitars and kind of a weird. They would just put their guitars in this weird road case with no cases. They would just basically put like 12 guitars and like a thing and just put it in.

Like almost like a. Let me cap this conversation. I've got the best story. It's really quick. So when Thurston and Kim got divorced, because you know their daughter isn't too hot.

It's cool. Don't know if you know that. I don't know that. Kim sold all of Thurston's album vinyl for a vast amount of money. Why is back to pay for her education?

The education. I'm sorry. Call it. It is one of the greatest things about her.

And, you know, he knows in London with his incredible new wife.

He's like free. He's happy. Playing his jazz love, ecstasy, music, sun raw, whole thing. He's a great guy. They came over in my house for the Oscars.

Which is one in the morning over there. They're great. Let's move on. Because these people were dicks. They were dicks.

Anyway, one was a dick. I mean, you know, how much does scar use? It's kind of scar Kurt. So the whole point I'm making about Kurt is bleach. It's him hiding his light under a bushell.

And it's not until one of those riot girls is in a polyamorous, non-consensual anti-amrelationship, which really scarves him. And he asked me the first question. He was like, "Do you know polyamory?" I know politically.

And I was like, "No, when he told me the situation, I'm like, this is no. You didn't give permission for that." Anyway, she was one of the riot girls that was really under the enthralling whatever spell of the sonic atmosphere.

He got so angry.

He was like, "I'm over it."

Because she didn't like about a girl. Which was about her. And she's just something about populism and capitalism. And how dare you write the song about me? And he got so mad.

And he told me two thoughts. And this is like true. It's crazy because they talked about me a lot. I didn't really know. There was a band called Courtney Love.

They're an evergreen. That's true. That crowd was obsessed with you. I'm obsessed. But I didn't know this.

Can I give you... Can't wait stop.

“Can I give you a theory why they were obsessed with you?”

Because there was a band called Courtney Love. Portland? No, no. Here's why they... You can analyze one moment in time.

Yeah. Just go back and form full of functions. Okay, right. Let's macro out. And why was the riot girl crowd?

Why were they obsessed with you? Because that was really ambitious. Portland. Ready? Okay.

Class trader. Did they know that my mother was an upper middle class? Think about it. Think about it. Think about it.

You're a class trader. Because I'm hard-scrabble like ex and a piece out that family at 11. Really? Think about it.

How would they know my roots? I pretend I was from the trailers. Like I kind of was. Like knows like. Because I'm literate.

Listen. Wow, this is really blowing my mind. What? Well, Kurt wasn't. He was really from the trailers.

I was so alive. I know. But when Toby Vale smashed a cake and said, "How dare you write that song about me?" And there were three bleaches in the planet.

Subpop that one. Chris had one. Kurt had one. He lit candles. He still a cake from the safeway.

Toby Vale comes over in a docked martens. He plays her about a girl. She smashed his the cake. And walks out.

“And I think something happened to the bleach.”

You know, acetate. And he had candles. He said, "This.

First thought I'm getting the best drummer in the world.

I don't care if he's in warrant." Second thought, "I'm going to get that Courtney girl. Even if I hate her." That's what he told me. And I'm going to write, "All.

I'm going to write to. I'm going to do it in body." But that wasn't worth it. I'm going to write great songs because I can. Right?

And I had the same feeling. I'm pretty in the inside. Even though people love pretty in the inside. I could put an R.M. song. I couldn't write killing moon.

But I could put lesser bunning and songs. I had a guitar player who was really good. I mean, at best, at my best, there was a reliable rhythmist. But I must almost even try and play guitar. Which is probably a good thing for the world.

But anyway, that I understood, you'd love to say skillset. I understood that the Peter Bach of it all. You know what I mean? And instead, I... You talked about Peter Bach a lot.

Well, instead of, I loved R.M. so much. And I learned a poem with like my two real coaches. And maybe some Dylan and definitely Beatles. Okay? So I understood what I could do with the good band. But I also understood like this is the market right now.

And I'm going to go all the way in and write great lyrics and do noise. Noise music. So the fact that like people even liked those songs to this day. There was a 30th anniversary. I was like, I wanted to see at this huge tattoo mom London.

And there's like thousands of people. That was like, this is weird. This is weird. I mean, and then I got a little more respect for that album. But like, at least it was that.

It was, I'm going to cleave to this market. There was a, like with cash, there was no selling out. The real sell out is those of us that bent bent to the market. The market of Kim Gordon, whatever you want to call it. The market of the indie part.

“Yeah, I mean, I think that's what you're attated.”

Payments and tire career. Well, that's what continues.

It was funny because they're still irritated, which is amazing.

Yeah. We're talking about 35 years of irritation over it. Well, yeah, I mean, like, I own a T house and I got little kids. You know, like, get over it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You're selling, you're selling. Your ex-husband's vinyl collection to pick. Not really.

But yeah. But what I'm saying is, is the, is the gatekeepers screen. To this day, they still scream about authenticity. But most of them, at least the way I've tracked, didn't come from an authentic place.

No. They're, they have a, they have a more. Or they married well now, or they're human resources, because they didn't. Of course. Okay, but they have a mental conception of authenticity.

They don't have a real conception of authenticity. Okay. Explain that. Let go back to evergreen college and like, you know, this, this whole. You had to make choices based on a whole set of fact, a whole host of factors.

Okay. How am I going to eat? What am I going to do? Yeah. Who do I want to be?

Yeah. Who do I have to sleep with or not? Okay. You don't get to sit there and say, my dad's got a university gig and he's going to take care of me when I'm in the band that nobody wants to listen to. So just because you went those girls and boys were trapped by those constructs.

So my dad owns the university. I mean, close to a trap by it. Right.

That's where they make sexless music.

Right. Why? Why? Why? Because they don't, they don't, it's like,

“The reason for Donna comes from, like, though, or working class, right?”

Like, second, yeah, no, you're right.

There's a lack of, um, there's a lack of wanting to have sex in some. Isn't that shocking? Like, I mean, it isn't for a woman. It is, I think. I mean, I don't mean it this way.

Well, boy, the boys there too say boys. It's like, it's like, it's like, you don't really understand the true cost of vulnerability because you don't have to live it. Vulnerability is the whole show for me. I think I agree. Okay.

So if we look at our vulnerable on stage to this day, to this day, pop, pop kids. Do you know what I mean? Vulnerability is everything. And if you can't get friends with your vulnerability, you cannot man you facture vulnerability now.

You've texted me last night. We're talking about young blood and the girl I mentioned, baby queen, and you were talking, and they're kind of the same. They're definitely peers. They definitely put each other.

Whatever. And it's funny that we both sort of picked up on the thread of both of them. But you said something about how they put everything, but they can't backtrack in integrity.

What did you mean by that time?

The construct of the current generation. Well, let's call it the current musical generation, because obviously there's different ages at play. So it's not just one yet. These are Gen Z kids, right?

Youngblood's 28. That's what I know. She's 25. Okay. Just 26.

If your audience is been raised on pop, they don't respond to indie, alternative language, the way that we did. No, but she loves drowned. She doesn't know all this.

Okay. God bless you. But let me finish why I'm telling you. Okay. When you found the bunny men or joy division or bow house or sister.

New order. You felt like you'd found like the secret to the universe. Yeah. There are people making music for what I'm actually. Come here.

It's like what?

Well, that's what I said the other day,

because I just did a benefit for the Stephen Tyler. I know, Stephen Tyler. I mean, a God, but yeah. No, but, but, but too, because I was talking to a friend, actually, that works on the show.

Who's a friend of Stephen's. To us, aerosmith was an alternative band. Oh, yeah. You had the guide for Mario's feedback on this podcast. Who was, oh, wait, you see me crying, which actually got Stephen to perform.

I can't hit in notes, but it was on his Vegas horror gigs. Baby, what you down to your head. Oh, my God. Check 10 or check 12 on on toys in the attic. And nobody knows about it.

Okay, but I'm when you find that. Like, I found cheap trick or you found it. Well, cheap trick is the whole sauce. Like, they are good. But what I'm saying when you find it, you're like,

Oh, my God, these guys have the manual to get me out of here. Yeah, and also with cheap trick, you're hearing the weirdest lyrics on the radio. Why do you think, listen? Cause we, you know what I said to Michael Stewart recently. I'm like, I couldn't afford R&D.

Do you understand, like, I had to hang out with upper middle-class middle-class girls

“who couldn't get the juice in the rumors and the new singles?”

Yeah. I didn't have to afford cheap trick. You got kind of mad. But then you realized that was right. Which is like, mom and dad are rolling on the couch, rock and roll and roll.

Got my kiss records out, or Mommy was a whack in the filter. Yeah. That's on the radio. It's free of charge. Like, I love R&D.

I love them so much. But they cost a little money to get. You didn't mean like, you had to buy the singles for money. Yeah. And cheap trick was free.

And that's important, I think. Just to finish the point I want to talk about. Okay, sorry. Have you found, like I have, that people's obsessions often belight their greatest fear? Tell me what you mean.

Okay. So my argument is, the reason the upper middle class to snobby rich kid class almost predominantly white by the way. And middle middle, go with middle, because it is middle class too. It's just, well, I think it goes to upper button.

Well, but they need the upper middle class to give it. The interesting thing is, yeah. Thank you. Okay. Here.

“Why are they so obsessed to this day with the concept of authenticity?”

Because I'm detriment to the end up not wealthy. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business.

They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business.

They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business.

They end up not doing this business.

They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business. They end up not doing this business.

That selling ourselves out was far, far bigger as in. Which you got accused of the worse in. Because you were embodied and not selling yourself out. And now that we're 35, 37 years later.

It's like, how do people like my first album?

I wasn't even present for it. Right? If I'd have written to my level, I would have said I-- Well, can I give you-- because I-- Tell me that I'm in a plasticator though.

Because-- OK, we had to come around, man. OK. Let's do one thing. And then we'll go back to class. OK. OK. I had to look up to date.

“The date we first met, I believe we talked on the phone briefly before that.”

Yes. That's my memory. We did. The date of our first meeting in person was October 29, 1991. You were playing the avalan.

Oh, yeah. Nevermind hadn't come out yet and smashed the rest of us. Right. I wouldn't think it was 1991. No, it's November.

The avalan club was formerly a club named Tuts. It was the second floor venue. So it was a-- He wasn't your metro? No, no.

The first gig in Chicago. I'd love to say whatever. I thought it was bigger than that. OK. No.

It would-- it would have held about 400 people max. You had a good-- Did we see the poor guy from material issue with Valerie loves me that night? He was probably there, yeah.

Yeah, Jim. I was friends with Jim. Jim unfortunately killed him. I know. God.

That song. That made fun of too a lot. Because he was a major level. For my generation, absolutely the most talented guy in Chicago.

Hands down. He was shockingly talented. I've covered that song with really good covers. I do.

“I want to say you've worked on material issue.”

Because I love this story. OK. They come on stage. I see him one of these things. It's like $3 show.

That really loves me. OK. But this is before the record deal. This is before.

They were the first band to sign

with the major league club. So I didn't put that into the industry or something. Right. They come on stage. He's carrying an out this big.

Right. Right. He puts it on a chair. Right. Somebody put some microphone in front of it.

The drummer goes 1, 2, 3, 4. They do a pitch perfect hit every note version of ballroom blitz by the sweet. Oh. And I'm in the audience. With the little hat of punter going.

And I go. Oh my God. And I was in. And I was in love with this half black half white skin head girl. Who's the most beautiful old girl.

I was in like in love with there. And I had. I thought was having this soulful relationship. He probably were. And she had.

She had. You know, it was the classic old girls. There were three roommates. Three girls living in the department.

“It really close directly filled with the club's play.”

Same neighborhood as the Metro and all that. Right. You do the by there, right. That's where I lived. And that's where we had our pocket for a moment.

Anyway. Uh. You know, I'm over there. We're talking about. You know.

She liked. She liked. She liked. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Bit of sweet. Hello. She liked the hood of gurus. Amazing. Okay.

So she had good taste in me. But she was a skin there. She was. Everybody thought she was the most beautiful girl. Right.

Right. But she was a skin head. Right. And. And one day, you know, it's it's morning.

And we've slept together the night before and data, data, data, data, data. And. Oh, that's a dinner in the show. Okay. Okay.

So I mean, her and her cool apartment with like, you know, veils over the over the lamps. You know, whatever. It's morning, you know, and I'm just hanging out being the boyfriend. At least I thought I was the boyfriend.

And she goes outside and says, oh, I got to go say hi to somebody or something. So I don't think anything of. Yeah. And about 30 minutes goes by and she doesn't come back. Yeah.

So I start to get suspicious. And before I before I went and looked, because I had a feeling. I, I asked the roommate who I later slept with. But that's another.

God.

It's. It's. revenge in revenge, but I said to the roommate, I said to the roommate, who's she talking to and she's like, and the way she acted it was like, oh, you know, her friend. So I knew I was cooked. So I go to like, you know, the classic like you go up to the window like to look like, oh, here goes my life and I look out and she's talking to Jim. Wow. And I thought I'm not dead. I'm she's she's talking and obviously enamored with the most talented guy in the in the city. Yeah, and I'm just some he was on a major level like the Buckpets weren't as good by the way. And everybody and we're in here and every game. I think that fed into how he killed me, but here's the other part of the story. You need to know this is so awesome. This is before the pumpkins. Yeah, I know. So I'm just some guy. I know you were a bit with a dream. No, but I'm saying you're looking out the window in the girl you think you're in love with and you think some love with you. I in the band is talking to him. Well, of course, we did.

Yeah, I would have felt more comfortable if she was talking to like a road scholar who was up for a Nobel prize. You know, I'm saying when you're in the musician and you see that guy. That world we're all going to go with the guy in the band or the girl in the band like the so it works. Baby. Hi, I'm Alison Hagendorf and music is my world, but I also love the energy of a great game and I recently found a way to make watching even more fun.

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That's code others to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Prize picks, it's good to be right. We met in October of 1991. I have a long ball room. So you're going to go there and then. I'll remind you of the story. Okay. So you guys all band pull up to my apartment. Yeah.

“Where I was living with hippie Bob. I don't remember him. He would have been around.”

I remember you had like a, a wacko, so plant Melrose vibe Mexican virgin and bottle of the pick candle.

And I was like, why is that in Chicago?

But it was very cool that you had that. Go on. Hippie Bob. Yeah. I remember hippie Bob. Yeah. You guys came. We met and then you went over for soundtrack, which I don't think I went to. Then you came back hung out for a while and then we went saw the gig. Okay. All right. So yeah. And the sky was made about this.

Because it was pretty on your back port. And we both took, you're not big on drugs, but we both took a Viking down.

“And I love Viking. I mean, that was great. I was like, I think you provided it and I think I was like, can I have more?”

Can I have more? Yeah. I was big on Viking. I was big on up. Yeah. It's clearly because that happened. But, you know, not them, not them. I was being really restrained about drug use, really restrained. Nobody's going to sign a junkie. And I need that. You know, I knew that. So what can I test for them? Let's pause here. Because I alluded to briefly and talking about doing this interview, but it's interesting to me because when I met you, you would have been like what 24 or something like that. So maybe a touchholder.

But really, it was 25 now. Okay. Oh, no. I was because I was at Jambos Pyramid in the 7th day. And this guy at the Jambos Pyramid was like, if you don't make, if you don't get signed right 25, I'm starting wrestling and you're built for it. And I was like, female wrestling, I was in half. It's not going to happen. Michael as name was Michael. You could have, you could have drawn a lot of money in wrestling. He said, he was going to say, you'll be using Chanel tampons and driving a Jean Paul go to a couple more.

He must have been from Chicago.

So, he was the manager at Jambos Pyramid. And yeah, somehow I did it. But I was, um, that was 20, I was 20. You know, I was, I was smitten with you, but, but, you know, usually when you're smitten with somebody and they're about 25, there's usually an arc like, okay, they got a high school when they're 18.

And how much life could they have lived in this time? Well, I started poking around from the first meeting about, you know, your origin story.

And you were very evasive, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, no, I like to tell people I was so muchay the park and I was just a Goth. Yes, because at one point, because it's too complicated otherwise, like all the points I wouldn't let it go, as you know, I tend to. Yes, thank you. That's there. What is that? Yep. But at one point, and I guess maybe in frustration, I was poking around when you were living in probably Portland when you were 19 or 20 and you just weren't giving me a suitable answer.

So, what I'm saying, you know, I'm trying to get a sense of. But let me just say that the people think of the lowest points in my life probably because I'm American, probably because I'm durable. Juby, a delightful experience. I'm not even kidding. Getting traffic by the accuser to Japan delightful. I'm not even kidding. Like people think it's, I understand Japan is because I was American and nobody would put me, but I really was trafficked by the accuser out of Portland with all these other girls.

From Idaho, from Utah, from Washington State, that, you know, I don't know what happened, but I went to the, because it took my passport, but I after five months went to the Japanese embassy, not the American. Why was I so dumb? Because I knew at that point, I could generate press. It was called, you know, whatever slavery then. And I was like, if I go to their more discreet, and what they just put me on a first, they gave me first class, too. First class flight back to Portland, I rolling. And I had my Hyundai guitar in the, so just that people think was the good stuff was horrible, and people think it's the best stuff was really good.

But I'm, I'm putting myself in the story here, which is, you know, I'm a smart, I'm a smitten indie want to be rock star. And, you know, I've just seen you play and, you know, if anybody saw you in the first album era, you know, what it lacked in beetle cords, it made up for and complete sheer visceral energy.

“I mean, if you're going to go that, that's why I said what the Kim Gardiner out with pretty on the inside, like, this is our own, this is the market.”

All right, I'm going all the way in, you know. Yeah, I mean, the things I remember were Erick's kind of a tonal approach to guitar, which I found really interesting is nerd. Yeah, combined. Yeah, nerd chops, though. Yeah, the whole Kevin Teele. I'm a fan of Eric.

Yeah, I am, too.

He wasn't always a fan of me, but we made our piece, which is all good.

But the point is, my two memories of watching you play at the album on that night, you know, was the cool guitar stuff happening. And then just just never ending screen. And what is the source of this? Whatever that, I mean, it was like a white hot rage. Yeah.

And it was performative, yes, but it was coming, it was sourced from somewhere.

“Well, that's why I'm saying that the band, I'm talking about New York, like, he couldn't fake.”

That kind of singing, I've been listening for three days. You couldn't fake the level of playing and singing you were, dude, you couldn't fake it. You know, you couldn't fake it. You know, you know, we're just talking about the cycle of the kids. Like, they're behind a pop, the near, the multimedia, because they're online.

Like, but there are certain things we can see with these pop kids where they can't fake it. Like, the good stuff. You know what, when the indie world would give me about playing solos and playing base to say too good.

That was always a fun one.

Yeah, you played too well. You played, you were technically great. So they, I loved it. I was like, oh, man, I don't care if they were hats. This song is, this album is great.

Because we had this impulse system, I was like, they were hats. But let me give you an adenum to that. Well, what, what no snob from, you know, the village voice could ever understand was, I had no concern with what they thought about my playing. My shadow was my father.

Yeah. Who was a failed musician, drug dealer, you know, very, very bitter, who basically said, if you're going to do this, because he resisted it for years. Yeah.

“If you're going to do this, you must play it this level or you're not.”

Oh, well, good for him, though. But I'm saying is people don't understand. That's a working class shadow. My dad was in teaching at Berkeley and said, son, if you want to be good, if you want to be good, if you got to be good.

My dad said, you know, you got to be as good as the Django or you don't belon...

My dad was like, if you can't play as good as Albert King or you can't play as good as

Stevie Ray Vaughan or Jimmy Henry, get the off the stage. I mean, that's great. And he would illustrate what he meant, not from a place of. When this guy hits this note this way, it sends lightning bolts through my brain. My dad talked about seeing Albert King.

Do you know anything about Albert King? Not really, no. Okay, because I know you love music stuff. Albert King played a flying the upside down with the strings upside down. Whoa.

Okay. When you listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan or Joe Bonnamos or Jimmy Hendrix or Carlos Santana. Yeah. The great, the great soloist. Hey, I'm wearing county.

Yeah. Okay. Including Jerry. Okay. I know you can't stop.

Stop. You lived it.

“Aren't you on the cover of one of the records or something?”

I say, it's not me, apparently. It's Mountain Girl's daughter. I don't know. Hank told me. I think he told me is not true.

Now, you got to imagine a bear of a man. African American came up through all that. I knew that racist crap. Yeah. All those great pioneers had to do.

Now, imagine him embraced by the hippies in the 60s because why Bill Graham put him on a bill at the film more. All right. And the hippies embraced Albert King. And there's actually a live record of him playing at the film more in that time. Okay.

Call Blues Power right there. Who was the African American also played Woodstock that all the hippies liked? Richie Havens. Yes. Okay.

Okay.

Who played with one finger basically?

Yeah. He's like, because albums are fantastic. I'm a biggie. My parents had that. Okay.

So imagine my dad, skinny white guy. But the Perth. Not yet. Okay. No.

This is early days. Okay. This is 66. I don't even learn.

“I would either just about been born or somewhere in this.”

Oh, my dad's whatever. He's a, you know, him and my mom met at a high school dance that my dad was playing. Okay. He goes to see Albert King in some club. Okay.

Here's this bear of a man playing a flying V upside down. What guitar did my dad play a flying V. Yeah. Okay. Which I still have.

Yeah. So my dad's in this crowd. You know what I mean? He's total working class. One of six children.

Incessed. Grandma, they've got the beat out of her. So like Irish Chicago? I saw their nail in the way, no, like redneck bootlegging. All of a sudden.

Is this when the environment's coming? That's earlier. Okay. I know. But like is that the side?

Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. So imagine he's complete working class.

His mother is, you know, you know, addicted to horrible horrific man. And he sees this guy. He's got no. 10-genial relationship to other than he's growing up in a predominant black neighborhood. And he loves to go across the street and listen to gospel music of the church.

And he sees this guy. Who's from the same sort of class level that he is. But obviously, difference between a young white guy and an August black bluesman. Yeah. Who's, you know, traveled the trails.

But they're meeting in this cultural moment of the 60s. Where does that last? Through the genius of Bill Graham. Bill Graham says to the white kids in San Francisco. You need to listen to this guy.

Yeah. So here in my dad is seeing him on this trail that Bill Graham, you know, ignites. And here is Albert King and Chicago. My dad for 50 years of my life would talk about when Albert King would hit that string. What it would do to his senses.

It was like somebody trying to describe a lightning in a guitar. So when I'm on stage at the avalan.

And by the way, the avalan is the first time we ever played me James and Darcy in a drum machine.

Okay. Okay. So I'd been on that stage and I sort of knew that feeling. Yeah. Okay.

It isn't. It isn't sonic youth over my shoulder. It isn't dust domine. It isn't the place. Domine.

It isn't the replacements. It isn't, you know, whoever anybody threw at us at that time. Yeah. You know what I mean? It isn't Albini.

Well, no, but I'm saying is no. I mean he's brilliant but he isn't. All the gods of the time. Right. Right.

Including soul asylum and who screwed it up? I think soul asylum is a great vibe. I'm not making a musical treasure. I'm saying is I didn't care at all about their their their hall of Titans. You know, I'm saying.

I was raised to believe if you're going to play guitar and you can't play like this. I got it. This is the shadow making you level up. Got it. So.

And it's a worthy reason. The reason I'm even going down this rabbit hole is to say.

“I think that's what people didn't understand about it.”

You what motivated you as an artist. What motivated you and what you wanted to say. I don't even know what even. Well, we had it.

Well, we had it.

Well, we had it. We had a ton of conversations about at the time. Okay. What did I say?

You basically said and correct me if this strikes you as wrong.

Okay. You acknowledged the shadow of the indie world on what you needed to navigate to get where you wanted to go. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time saying I know there are a bunch of tricks, but that's just the way it is.

Well, that's what I just been saying. Okay. I'm letting her go in all the way to Kim Gordon. Like all the way. Like the rest of it.

This is the gatekeeper. I am blending her. She needs me. I need her. This is what's going to happen.

Okay. Like I put it in the politics of it. Really arose. I want to say this. Sure.

You were even though they didn't like you.

And you didn't like them. You had different goals.

“You were in the Midwest, which I believe you're not really protected too.”

Like I couldn't afford to not understand the politics. And like kids have to be online now. Try doing indie politics. It distracts so much of a musicality. Yeah.

And so, you know, I mean, screaming was my only option. Something I was good at too. And my lyrics were fire and I knew they were great. And you know, the hiding light. I wish sometimes I'm glad it turned out the way it is.

But I was sometimes I follow that R.A.M narrative. Do you mean it with my play? Oh, we did not. They were eventually. Yeah, we did.

But like, getting for it was like, oh, my God. But I'm telling you the ambition that we had to be a major labels.

Me, you, you know, those of us that did it.

That fury that Kurt felt when Toby fell. Like screamed in him about about a girl. How could you write something so popular? So capitalism. Think I'd be impressed.

I mean. These people, what the, you know, and the thing is, like, unless they, these women, unless they married real well. Where are they now? And some of them are my friends, some of them are people that I love.

Who went down that rabbit hole.

“I'll be specific, you know, the babes girls, right?”

Like, I love cat. I love her. She's still with us. Apparently. But, um, it's, it's a matter of, you didn't write.

You were so capable. She had palm a carton, you chuck her guitar playing. Was on another level for any woman I'd ever met. Her musicality, her sense of the Paul of it all, right? And I remember once in Minneapolis when she started babes in Thailand.

I was yammering on about the Beatles. Whatever. Got in a huge fight. She's like, well, I know who's Paul and he's John. Like, I was like, actually, you're Paul.

But I'll take Paul. I'll take Paul all day long. And it was, it was a big insult at the time. Like, really Paul's an insult. And okay, John's good too, but John's like,

I was great, but John's represented at that moment. Yeah, it was like the punk part. Like, I'm punk and you're just Paul. And like, God, I wish I was Paul. Like, one, one finger of Paul would be great.

And that, the fact that they didn't follow the, I believe we're not all the records.

“Like, she could write choruses, but she didn't want to, right?”

And like, you know, I'd see her on like my own, you know, biography is a Courtney love. And like, going on there non-consentially. Like, everybody did. My family members did.

You know, the old people that ever asked like Jennifer Finch, right? Cannot, you know, what do you think of other things like, please, you know, do it. But can't we go on non-consentially? I mean, isn't that insane?

Now that the culture has changed, like, people, your family members, not that I really like, like a few of them. But, you know, can't other people, like, go in my old base player, like,

whatever's so full of resentment that they non-consentially go on the e-true Hollywood story, go on behind the music without your permission. I mean, have you had that happen to you? Not as much as you, but I've had it, yeah.

I think those women are just so mean to each other, but anyway, they used to be, but anyway, it counts. I've seen you wanted to be famous, and I wanted to play--

I mean, just back to my class trader. I mean, what the actual man think they-- Why were they so mad at Dylan? Oh, oh. Because he betrayed them by going electric.

How is that class trader, though? What is he working with? - Let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell you, let me tell

cigarettes at a time with like a shilling, like a fence, whatever. All right, go on. I hadn't yet outgrown my my parochial, you know. All right Roman Catholics sort of stodgyness. Yeah, I remember that that came later. So God bless on that. Yeah, no, I was just in no resistance to the criticism. Okay, no. Okay, but here we are, and you have more money than me. Well, I had the only money between. I had a Christian chance for days. I think I was living on at the time I

was living on a 75 pound per day of a week. Oh, no, I know. It was, it was, so you

Might have been.

that we couldn't afford a cab ride across London. So we walked. Right. I don't know if you

remember this. So I'll get to it. The reason we had a walk across London, and you can imagine the two of us in 1990, you would ever walking across London. Yeah. I kind of knew it, though, for maybe one, right? Did I know a little bit about London? Oh, you had, you had, you, you had shops. Yeah. We were staying in Hyde Park. Yeah. And the reason we had to walk across London is you had to do something. You had to get your passport updated or something. Okay.

There was some sort of contrivance where I need to get a stamp or something, or I'm not going to be able to do X, Y, or Z. Okay. You did, or I did. You did. Okay. Okay. So we had

“to go to some, it was a contrivance? Well, not a contrivance in the sense that's why we're”

walking. Okay. That's the, that's the reason we're walking across London. Okay. That's the contrivance. I'm probably abusing the word. Tell me the right use of the word, please. Well, it means when you fake something. Okay. So I'm using it wrong. Okay. Contrivance.

I'm just saying with you're incredible vocabulary. Okay. No, you caught me. That's good.

Okay. I don't know what the right word with. That's, that's the, that's the, that's the, the reason. The reason. All right. Come down to our level. So who are in the, in the English sunwalking, two hours, one direction and two hours back the other way. Oh, man. I felt this. It was very long. Okay. So you can imagine two hours this way and two hours that way. And the sun. Yeah. That was so arguments, jokes, leaving out. You know, leave

me alone. Do I talk to me for 20 minutes? I'm going to walk ahead of you. Virgin Megasart. Somewhere around there. Okay. Okay. So here we are. We're walking and walking. We go to the thing. We go to the passport thing. There's a, there's a beautiful Cucketish moment where I asked to see your passport and you don't want to let me see it because I'm going to find out your real name and, oh, wow. This is to like, really early or something. You're also telling

people at different age, which was, which was. Well, one does that from jump. My friend. I, I, I busted that you were, you're, I, I thought we were the same age. No, I was. Well, but what, woman does that from the jump. Let's put it this way. I figured it out that day. All right. Okay. But here's the beautiful memory. And this is why I want to loop it back into what

“we're talking about. And I think this has been the most interesting part of our discussion today.”

We're, we're walking back. We have no money. You're mad at me that I won't buy you cigarettes. You know, and we're so poor. We still mad. I don't even smoke, but I'm okay. Go on. And we're walking, you know, we're on some high street somewhere and we're walking past the product store. And you stop in front of the window and, you know, you're gazing at product's current line, huh? Two story across my heart. Okay. And, you know, I'm hot. I'm tired.

I'm annoyed. You're mad at me. Still. And, and so after about a minute of you gazing, I go, come on. Let's go. The, come on. Let's go wasn't just based on let's go. It was like, why are you staring you in? I know what I was saying. I know exactly what happened. I don't exactly remember. Was it mages? No, but I'll get to it. Okay. I'm sure. Yes, but no. Because whenever I see those kind of references, the stuff that we've done in the culture reflected

in masking assumption, I've never been in the early, I still am. I get shocked. I get shocked.

I'm like, wait, what? Like, no, it wasn't that. Okay. So I'm kind of annoyed because I'm thinking, like, to me, it's the equivalent of me standing outside a Mercedes-Benz dealership and looking at the card that I can't afford. All right. So I'm staring at the process jar up for it. And I'm like, I don't know. We don't have any money for anything. Right. Food. You know what I mean? Why are you looking at Prada? I feel guilty. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, going on. This is a, this is one of my favorite stories.

Okay, go. And, and I said, like, something along, I was like, what are you looking at that stuff for? We can't afford it or you can't afford it. And you go. As only you can do it though. One day, I would have it all. I mean, that is so nice. It's capitalism. But you knew. Yeah, I mean, I always knew you knew. I didn't know you liked that then. No, you knew about yourself. But that's different. My thing was more of a, like, you know, with these to call making it. I call it making it. Okay,

but my version of making it wasn't your version. Okay, your version of making, you had a lot more, you had a lot more arc in your ambition than I did. I wanted, I wanted to sell out the metro. You know, I don't know. Did you hear that lyric? There's no business, like, show business like no business. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, but does that in that song? The one you just helped me with? And then I go, you can call us sellouts now. Wait, no. Yeah, you can tell. There's no more

“tickets to the garden. That's how that song went. Yes. Yeah. You can call it, if you get the rhyme.”

It's really good song too. But there's no more tickets to the garden. You can call us sellouts now. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great line. Yeah. But like, I've been saving that line for a long time

To put it on what I know is going to be a wildfire of the song.

people's heads. Oh, my God, revenge of the nerds. But if we're talking comparative values, right? Because your ambition definitely led me to a greater ambition. I mean, I'm often accused of being overly ambitious. Your ambition was far greater than mine. And you actually open me up to see it in a picture. You know what I've noticed about women and ambition or even men and ambition? Like,

I noticed I was watching Donald Trump of all things in this first term on a rune of bearat,

like 80s, you know, when he was building and it was this crazy little dragon, whatever. And I'm no fan of that guys, but Rona bearat asks him the word ambition. Like, it's probably the one manner Donald Trump knows. Like, the one courtesy he knows, don't say the word ambition. And then we've done a rabbit hole. Did Donald Trump ever say the word ambition? He has not. And what I realized about the word ambition is that I learned it from Madonna. And the whole

I'm going to run the world and the whole blonde ambition thing. But people think it's rude.

“They really think it's rude. They think it's rude. And honestly, Donald Trump knows that it's”

rude from West Point over every father. Like, men know, men of a certain age know. I mean, that was my narrative. I was like, oh my god, you've got Madonna over here. By the way, Trump once called the page six, he's like, I gave him to just whatever. You got Madonna over here going blonde ambition is working forever. And then when it's older, it's not cute anymore. People find that we're and I started using that same trope that Madonna had laid down. Like, ambition isn't about, I mean, I wasn't

interested for sure, that like embracing it publicly. It's rude. People don't like it. They like all shops. They like Elvis, my mama. They're like, Apple pie, when you're successful. They really do. And when you're on the way, like, hot. If Donald Trump hated the word ambitious, what the, you know, I mean, like, that, that my brain, I broke my brain. So yes, I was crazy. I'm vicious, but people prefer when you hide that. Well, my point was slightly different. But okay, go on. You know, it's

tributory. So, but my point is is the gatekeeper indie system. If we had succumbed to that, including your husband. Well, we did on album one, you didn't. Sure. But the point is is at some

“point, you blew past it. He blew past it. Yeah. And look at him. You have to get angry enough to”

blew up. Sure. First of all, you have to believe it enough for a two to be be cowed by it. But secondarily, you have to ultimately figure out that it's bullshit to blow past it. And thank God that

we all did. Yeah. And including a bunch of other people's category. Yeah. Because we would never

made the music. And we would be basically forgotten. Think about when Ariem got big. And I mean, I mean, I didn't know them yet. But like Michael on South Central Rain, with like he was so freaked out. He turned his back on the audience. Yeah. Like, Bonneau never did that, but Michael did. And also, with Green Day, you know, they come out at the gate. Right after Kurt died, they were good mood. They were good mood. Duky was a good mood. And everybody needed in that world needed a good mood.

The other thing is a great, Harville has a great show called 60 songs that's been in the 90s that by the way, he's at like a hundred and fifty songs now. But the one on Green Day and Duky, he played he goes back to Gilman Street, which is in Berkeley. The number one rule of the straightest in Gilman Street was no major label bands here ever. It was painted on the wall. And poor Green Day, I mean, I saw picture of Billy Jones. He's from Berkeley. Like,

he's got great for this sticker on the back of their first van. I'm like, no! But he does. Berkeley is a whole million. Anyway, Robert of the source, like their first live show in the bridge of one song, is literal Beatles. Like, if they were obviously Pennywise, like their peers, they were better. And that was a parent from the show one, the three of them. And with the note and like, Harville's source tape. So, when I first

in Billy Jones, you know, he wasn't in any position to take my side as it were that he did from J1. And I brought him this thing record of Kurt's, because it was Bay Area punk. And he would appreciate it. And you know, we just really got along from J1. But the point being, he was tormented even in '94. They tormented him. You know, even after everything happened.

Yeah, I think he was publicly critical of me in that same thing. But Bobby, he was told to be

Billy. But let me put like, we didn't have a lot of characters then, because we couldn't, you know, like, go on. But, no, but it, because I don't want people to twist, twist what I'm saying. Yeah. You know, we met Green Day and I met during the Lawal Plues at 294, which you were up song with us for a hot minute. And we, you know, we don't, you know, I'd be out there playing basketball with the monks and all that. Oh, with that torrent. And they were this naughty little

“young guy in that torrent, haven't really. Don't you remember we took you on tour with us?”

Not Lala. Yeah. Oh, God. I don't remember. Look, can you remember the 90s you weren't really there, but go on. The monks run. Oh, I do remember the monks. Yes. But the reason we took you on tour, the reason I, I asked the band and the band to their credit was totally cool with it. I said, I didn't like the way you were being framed in in public as like, you know, this kind of

Yoko Ono character that, that the story was overwhelming your musical.

And I, I said it. And I think I suggested that's my memory of it. That the best thing for you to do is just get out in front of people and play. Yeah. We would stop our show. Save my life doing that. No matter how, but I was in the same life. So we would stop our show somewhere in the middle,

“and you would come out and play one or two songs. Oh, wow. I don't remember that all, but thank you.”

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. I was on a lot of drugs. But it's back to Back to Billy Joe for a second. Yeah. So, you know, you know, it's typical like he was saying, everybody was talking. He needs your two. God bless. Okay. I mean, look, we've all proven our metal. Yeah. So, um, I have no issue with it. But this is really beautiful moment where we

were playing a bridge school benefit. And, uh, and, you know, so imagine I, I'm never, I've never

asked me a plan. So, uh, Neil, Neil, if you're out there, I'm listening to harvest five days straight. Please, God. Okay. I don't think they do it anymore. There's still a, yeah, Lana just play with Neil. Uh, recently, he didn't tell me in apparently she belted. She belted rock. Oh, God bless. Yeah. Uh, anyway, to try to wrap this story up in this, uh, our interview today. Um, so I, you know, I met them on the lollap loser tour and, you know, you're together every day for

40 shows. So you get to know people a little bit. Yeah. And then the next thing I know is like Billy's saying negative stuff about me in the press. So, I, I'm playing a bridge school benefit somewhere like 98 2000, somewhere out there. And I, yeah. And I look and I see him, you know, in the backstage area, they're where the grateful dead, the shoreline, you know, I mean, that's like, you know, they have the dead, the big dead skull. Yeah. I know shoreline. Yeah. So it's, we're in

great for dead dead. Hey, we're lawn actually. We're in grateful dead land. And I look across the

“dressing room as all these cabanas. And I look and I see Billy Jonah and I think, oh, God, because”

I'm from Chicago. So, doesn't, it to me too every time somebody that's great to you says something mean about in the press, because they feel obligated like landing into your heart drops and my heart drops. It's like, wait, what, you are my friend. You are my friend. I don't want to stir up any controversy because Billy and Joe and our great in my life. I, in general, they all did it in my way. And a lot of them did it to you. And I mean, I remember a guy from tool wearing a three

friends as being church in the 90s. I was like, wait, what, we were friends. Like, like, a lot, like, I understand it now that they were obligated to say something or, you know, grow like come out with it and just say, we're cool. They come out with it, right? They be man enough to man up because you're the upper bench and has all the straight males. And we're cool. But you won't say it because you're afraid you'll lose your audience. You're afraid you're affected your

relationship with literal Paul McCartney, because he's got a friendship with Paul. And Paul's date has not the talent of Paul this particular. But they both have the wife haunting dark shadow.

“They both have the cool guy dying haunting dark tragically haunted. So their buddies, is that why?”

Like, I really bad listening to date, it would really be me if the straight white males that you aren't your base, if you will, uh, stop picking on me like the millennials in particular. Like, Gen Z is not picking on me. Or to be and to be. But you know, your heart drops whenever something you're cool with, or maybe just remotely cool with, this is you in the process. Oh, my god, this is still happening. Well, I can confirm that I've, you know, I've spent time with you and

date together and date doesn't have any issue with you. So. I don't want to do that to his base. It's so stupid. Anyway, no, but what I'm saying is there's the stuff that goes on behind the castle walls and their stuff goes down front. Yeah, because he needs that image. I mean, he needs sure. And also, obviously, uh, you see how many songs as you were like, I can't write a song about. I'm

just going to be per second. That me. You can cut it or not. I couldn't write a song about Dave

Gold to save my life. If I had to, I do the, you know, ASMR thing of like upload the color. I don't know, brown, whatever. Um, uh, upload, say the, I upload whatever, you know, all the, uh, and he's written like four songs about me cooking their hits. I'm like, wait, what? Like, what about me? Like, uh, I don't get it. Um, there's actually at that time when you wrote those songs. You're good to write hits about it. Oh, my god. So, okay. I can be great one. Scott Wyland. My friend finished

my business. See one thing. Scott Wyland, my friend. My drug buddy, my friend. Nothing romantic, just my buddy, right? Sage and from cry help. One's probably to a statement, but in any bit, we're two songs about me, one's called tool cool queen. So it's something else. And we're buddies. And they're mean. And I'm like, Scott, what the, you do? Why you write me? It's like, listen, it's lazy, but you're too good to not write songs about like, why is it just to say,

blonde thing that movies start thinking like all the the fact that you've had. It was crazy. Like, why have you written mean songs about me, Scott? And we're friends. And we go on Billy Joe. Let me finish my Billy. Okay. All right. Sorry. Uh, I don't want to get into what is criticism

was because it ultimately would make him seem hypocritical. And I, yeah, I'm not interested

in doing it because I like Billy Joe. I know, I say, I'm here. Like, God, I'm like, yeah,

I'm like, yeah, but they're.

is a huge fan of his. So it's like, all's good in the hood. We went on tour with them. No,

how long does 25? All right. Amazing. I mean, amazing to her, um, even my praise of them cost me

my relationship with Linda Ramone because she didn't like what I said about Green Day and the Ramone's, I mean, I've lived it with Green Day in my own kind of crazy man. I did the great guys go. Okay. So we're, we're in agreement of unbelievable. He's one of the great song writers of our generation. Yeah, deceptively simple when I was trying to do a great talent. So yeah, if anybody misunderstands what I'm saying, I understand that as I sit here right now, I'm so political. Of course you

like him and he likes you. No, no, what I don't want people to do is twist and create drama where

“there's no drama. Okay. But I am telling the story about the past. Okay. Because I think it illustrates”

kind of what we're talking about. Okay. So here, you know, there I am in my little, you know, Victorian mansion, you know, 94. And, you know, here is, you know, or 95, whatever, even here's Billy Joe criticizing me for whatever you can look it up if you want. I don't know. So now I don't know. I don't want you, just let's do it in the cameras off. Anyway, four or five years later, there I am at Bridge School, you know, Neil's charity event, beautiful event. Yeah, it's a,

it's a beautiful Marin County day. You know, on backstage in, in the shadow of the grateful dead school, which we don't feel the way about Marin County. And so it's all there. And I also see there and there I see Billy, there I see Billy and I think, and again, I'm from Chicago. So the Chicago politics is, if you see somebody that's been talking smack about you, he have two choices. Choice one is to turn tail, and pretend that you didn't see them, but no, you've been humiliated

on. When they're, whether or not they know, or two, you got to go up and sort of slay the beast where they stand. It doesn't mean it's a fight. I mean, you're not going to, you're not going to, you're not going to take it laying down. I'm done both, but yeah, I'm feeling it. So I'm standing there contemplating. So this is all, all credit to Billy. I'm standing there contemplating whether I want to address this situation, because I don't, I'm not going to take lightly what he said

and he comes up to me. And my first reaction is like, oh, this is going to be good. Right. And again, I'm, I'm, I'm right in a, right out of central casting. I think he's going to do the snotty,

“say the punk rock thing. Well, that's what I'm thinking. Right. And he, he says, I have to tell you”

that I'm very sorry about what I said. I love it. And he explained his logic. He explained his regret.

And I said, that always makes me cry. This is what I'm trying to say. And this is what I'm trying to say.

And this is what I think's more valuable. And this is where part of our ringing today is castigating the indie rock system of the 90s. And it's bullying and it's perniciousness, a particularly in its bullying of you, which, to certain extent, continues, mindless so, but it's there. I could give about how it continues like, I'm over it. Well, when you win, there's nothing to crow about, we won. Yeah. Okay. But it doesn't mean it didn't hurt at the time.

I mean, it doesn't mean it didn't scar. Okay. But the point is is that when we really look at our

“generation, our shared generation, I think this is a good place to end. Okay. And we'll pick it up”

some other time, because it's a more concentrated thing that how would they know my class of just all of a sudden? It is. Maybe not in front of a camp. Yeah, maybe not. But here's the point I'm trying to make. If you look at the records, the snob's made versus the records that the ones who got past the snobbery made, or who didn't give a from the audience, which was the hunger. Okay. You stack, let's call it the non-Hipster records in one pile and the hipster records in an hour,

and it's lighting. It's like this. It's class. That's crazy. You've changed my world, Billy

Cargham. That's always. So the obsession, you know, the Malcolmist obsession with me 35 years later,

but why is a certain point, which is, and they didn't have the chops to get there, or be they accepted a worldview, which was ultimately limiting to their talent? I think that the second one is the generous one, and I think it's, I'm trying to be nice. I know, but I think we can afford generosity. I think we can afford it at this point. Like maybe it's far better. I mean, there we go. There we go. Hamlet and Hamlet. Have an talk. All right.

Courtney Love | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Transcript

I was confident after that.

Then we would get up at five a.

It's an emerging love of color and smell and food.

Did you be things seem glamorous

This is building up.

Okay.

They're like, this, this, and then I kind of got into it, and then he gave my...

That what form follows?

I got to say.

I was hanging out with you.

He got so angry.

That's where they make sexless music.

They end up not doing this business.

God.

He must have been from Chicago.

My dad said, you know, you got to be as good as the Django or you don't belon...

Well, we had it.

Might have been.

To put it on what I know is going to be a wildfire of the song.

Yoko Ono character that, that the story was overwhelming your musical.

I'm like, yeah, but they're.

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