Jesse Rutherford from The Neighbourhood | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

30 minutes ago You know, and like it becomes something that's almost like nostalgia. Everybody's like, you know Druling for 2016 right now and And I like that's so funny. I know it's waiting you to don't worry about how it falls falls apart or falls together

I want to ask you about that too. If I can. Yeah, good. So when you first

Shaved your head. Are you still chronically online? Yeah, social media and auditing on my favorite drugs Jessie, welcome. Thank you for being on my show. Thanks for having me, dude. So I love to get a snapshot because growing up in Chicago We have an idealized concept of California life Of course, we're different generations, but growing up in the 70s like it did, you know

California dream, whether it was Disneyland or You know, it seems so idealic and obviously a lot of what the the music business propagates and into entertainment businesses The idea that California is the American lifestyle So growing up here, give me the reality of your circumstance Yeah, I mean, I think the older I get them where I see how just idealistic it really was

You know, once you like get out and you experience other places. Yeah, middle America is very sobering Yeah, and every time I fly back, I'm like, I like this place. Yeah, yeah Make thing pretty cool. We felt the same way when we would fly into Los Angeles

“Seeing that's what's always been wild to me because I would have like, you know, kids in my neighborhood”

Their cousin will come visit from wherever and they'd be like, we don't want to leave and everything myself

Wherever I go, I always want to leave back here

No, but now I kind of get it. Yeah, but also give me, sorry, I also give me the like the musical environment, the cultural environment So I can get it like a snapshot of the show. I mean, okay, so I grew up in a like a smaller suburban area About an hour north outside of L.A. 45 minutes north of L.A. called Newbury Park And, you know, it's it's a upper middle class community pretty pretty Safe, very safe, a lot of open space, a lot of parks

You know, skateboarding, yeah, what's the what's the sort of music scene? What's the sort of mix Ratially there, white and Hispanic, yeah, it's a mainly. Yeah, yeah Because I hear a lot of kind of soul and influence in your music, which most people maybe wouldn't pick up on. So it's not coming from there Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, we could get to that, but I'm just just trying to understand where the music and the person comes from Right, right

“Well, yeah, I think my trajectory or my programming is is a bit interesting because I was a child actor”

So when I was like five turning six, I was I became an actor Someone can you walk me through that process because that's mystifying to me Because I've interviewed a lot of famous child actors. Yeah, so that's an interesting thing because everybody has a different story Was it like a stage mom thing or was it something you were interested in? No, I was I was like discovered I went to go see a movie at the mall. No one was discovering us see in Chicago

That's see, that's part of the idea. They were looking there praying on us out where I was, you know? Yeah, this close to the microwave of Los Angeles, you walk through the mall and it's me like no, I was seeing a movie I was yeah about five or six years old and there's a girl sitting next to me like a like a You know teenage-ish girl and I was just like Being a little and just like you know talking and just giving her the play by play the movie just whatever

Yeah, and you had game back then. I mean, I wasn't even I was just, you know If you say to some, I don't take it, but no, we we walked out of the movie theater and She went over to her parents and

“Was like, you know, I think this kid could could be an actor”

Anyway, they come over to my I was with my dad actually at the time and Pretty much for like hey, you know, Sandy our daughter says that Jessie's pretty entertaining kid and like I think he has the look like we're where managers And we manage our kids and if you're interested like, you know, here's our number and so took a back home

She was always very like because in that community like I said people like will be at them all scouting kids and whatever

And like then the bit is they'll get you to try to pay for something And then that's when there's a whole cottage industry where they kind of scam parents and dream And of course, if it happens, then they're they got a piece of the dream and if it doesn't happen, what they just make money up Exactly exactly or you just like yeah, you waste a bunch of money on like headshots and you know whatever else to try to go to

We'll get you guys started and then I went on on my first audition I booked it so it was kind of like All right, this this might be a thing and then I turned into a thing but if five years old yeah, yeah That's a pretty young age to kind of walk into the Into the thing where you conscious of as a person the pressure or no, I mean, I was a little kid doing what I was already doing But just like in front of a camera

You know entertaining adults. I feel like I was always able to kind of like chat with adults and stuff

Which I think when you're a little kid and you could communicate on that level. Yeah, it was always kind of like well look at this guy You know what I mean? So what's your like acting highlight is there is there one? Probably move it with Angelina Jolie and Everburns called life or something like it. Yeah, yeah, and is it true you were on Star Trek? I was we actually share a Star Trek connection

“No, I wasn't I was never on Star Trek, but somebody was a Star Trek fan. It was next generation times Captain Picard times. Yeah, that's what I was on. Oh really. Oh, I think no, no enterprise”

So somebody was a fan of the band and I and and the the second the last Star Trek episode ever. It's called Planet Corgano

That's right and so I was a guy. No, it was a huge Star Trek fan like you know, he's like known as the Star Trek fan in the world I told him I was bragging like you know, they named this episode and the plane and after me and I was and he goes oh, that's probably considered the worst Star Trek episode of all time But we do share this you're like I still got one that's like come on So Disbeying in the entertainment business, you know, that's called the wide version of it. It's just doesn't light anything in you or because I I once interviewed Mickey Dolans from the monkeys

“And before he was in the monkeys who was a child actor and he was actually on a big series. I think called circus boy and so when you even started with the monkeys a lot of people are like oh, it's the guy from circus boy”

In his mind acting was something that he did because it helped the family finances had real no particular interest in acting So I'm asking you a similar sort of thing was something like you thought oh, this is cool or how's the family feel about it It's interesting to me that you kind of wandered into this public life before you even really knew what you were doing right yeah

Yeah, at a point it turned into that but my mom was never like

Stereotypical stage mom. Yeah, it was more so like I don't blame her for this. It was just so cool that like I got to do what I was doing nobody in my family had done anything like that And my mom is a wonderful lady and I think she was just first of all we got to spend a lot of time with each other because she was taking me to like you know several auditions every day She picked me up from school and we'd drive to LA and be out there all day and you know get fast food on the way back and sleep in the car and all that wake up the next day and do it again

Which eventually that got to be to the part where I was like damn like I want to like go hang out with my friends maybe sometimes after school or I mean of course I had weekends and stuff I wasn't like not trying to frame it like I was like this deprived you know industry child If anything I kind of got to really walk a I've had a really interesting path where I've kind of like been able to see a lot

“But I've dodged certain experiences or not even dodged they just haven't they my cards didn't fall that way, you know and I think I'm really grateful for that at this point”

But why would explain the gratitude because I'm curious to me Because you're like could have taken this other route or yeah because once I I'm kind of jumping around here but once I found music once I discovered like And music and the local music scene especially I was like oh I know what I'm going to do now and if it weren't for the programming that I had from being a child actor I don't know if I would have Believed it as much as I yeah I did and maybe getting confirmation at some point gives you some confidence or something

Yeah, it's it's it's kind of spiritual and really I get twisted way I get it but I yeah I do feel like in some ways there's like a you've been selectedness which I don't mean to sound like And I use the word I've used the word this is a bit of a Catholic word but I've used the word annoying to it and some people sometimes people really get almost offended by it but you know and I'm not putting this on you see you give me your version but There's something about you that separates you like when I was a kid I people would say you're too weird or too this so music for me was like it put all the pieces together

What I think people really don't understand it's not like I it's not like I was anointed to like play hockey for the you know the US Olympic team you know I was chosen for something that I was really good at

“A passion for it so you should I'm saying I quite unique too especially like we're going to get it to the sound of I think either of our yeah it's our bands like it's it's not it's a little bit left of center it's it's pretty unique”

Do you know what I'm saying do you feel that way about yeah yeah and and I feel the same way listening to your music so so going back to this idea of being chosen or anointed people kind of they don't understand the real context Because somebody taps you on the shoulder like you were tapped on the shoulder at five years old somebody saw something in you let's call it a spark right something simple Okay, well, they weren't wrong You know mean well, there's a lot of other people get tapped on the shoulder and they blow it where they don't have the top or people miss read the spark that they have maybe they would have been better as a standup comedian than a

Child actor star thing not everybody's path lines up so sometimes it's easy to sort of tell the story that happened as opposed to the one that didn't happen, but if it happens to you

“I once had a therapist say you know the problem with being delusional is when your delusion is proven correct no one's ever going to tell you that your delusion look at you tell me right that's what I'm saying yeah”

So it's not arrogance it's kind of a weird thing because if you are sort of thrust into something that you believe in and you do have the conviction of it It's not like it's it just magically happens. You don't just roll out a band and suddenly become the guy that everybody's listening to and you're on TV or something

No, and a lot of other things support the idea that's kind of what I'm trying to like I eat my mom who like really just like loves me and like support me and always

Supported me you know and in any endeavor that you know these stories get boring for both of us so you you tell it however you want, but I'm more interested I guess in the in the idea of like When does that flips flips which flip, thank you. Thank you. Oh, sorry. When does the switch flip that you're like ah, okay, this is what I'm going to do like give me that moment. On a sixth grade there was a guitar class middle school that I went to come up my buddies went to it, so I went with them and the teacher

It's amazing woman named Ms. Laura was like, dude, you're not a guitar player you're a drummer and I was like, all right, and then she had a drum kit at her house, which was like near the school.

“So, you know, I went there to play and I'm pretty sure she put on I can't remember which song it was, but it was a Nirvana song and within a couple minutes I was I was playing I mean it was just like”

It was like the basic, you know, but like I did it and it clicked pretty quickly and like I was so lame. I still get like giddy thinking about that feeling because it was like Because at that point up to that point I was like middle school, so like, you know, I went through my which we could kind of talk about this a little bit, but like I went through my

I'm going to be a professional wrestler phase like we could talk about wrestling too. You know what I mean, so I did that in like fourth fifth grade when my sister first showed me

What was your favorite? Jeff Hardy, friend of mine, I work with Jeff, do you know it? No, but he's yeah such an Instagram. I wear it a company called TNA, which is for sure. Yeah, I work with Jeff at TNA. Wonderful. Yeah, he said, I know the Hardy brothers are really, really well. They're just wonderful guys. Jeff's a really interesting person because Jeff is basically, if you don't mind a degree Please, Jeff, I love this. Jeff is basically an alternative musician in a wrestler's body. His whole mindset is an alt musician.

And he of course, he's had his own music, but his gift of course is with wrestling. I mean, he's a he's a once in a generational wrestler. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I've seen Jeff do stuff you go. He's like plastic man, like how do you how do you not die Jeff, you know, but that's that was a common quote and and I wasn't the only person press. The wrestlers would be like, holy. Everybody, I think that's kind of the thing about this guy and it doesn't and he makes it look so effortless and also. I just, it just, it feels so natural. It goes so naturally for him. There, there, there couldn't be any other. Well, I mean, they debuted with WWE. I think when they were 16. So talking about a spark, right? I mean, there they are at 16 and a WWE F-ring or whatever was at the time.

And Jeff really is that almost like Jeff reminds me of that alternative musician who's so talented and I'm sure you've met them or you're like, whoa dude, like you you're almost like you're the art or something like they're not trying to be alternative. They just kind of are that guy or girl.

Maybe like you. And I'm raising my hand and then there's like the cool quiet guitar player that's just like, how do you even do that? And just you don't I mean like, yeah, even though I would say almost they're they're opposite in that way. I think Matt, like especially as years went on.

Yeah, really stepped up to be like very vocal and like where his head is at.

Matt is Matt is more the intellectual loves the business knows the business. Jeff is the guy you literally just can put a spotlight on and it just happens. He's he's so gifted. It's crazy and I've watched it. And participated in it and one last thing on Jeff before we go back to you when I got to know Jeff better. He said I want you to see something and he showed me a video from I think 1994 of him like doing like crazy. Like John or skateboarding something which it's him doing crazy, but like not wrestling and he had set in 1994 he had said it to my music. And he wanted me to see that he was an OG fan and that's so cool.

“And I was like, oh, that's what a compliment. Yeah, I really love Jeff and I love Matt too. So it's so cool. So I would love to me.”

Guys, well, if you ever want to get in a wrestling, I'm a wrestling company, but we'll talk about that some other time. I need to book off a little bit, but I found it. Well, we could challenge that.

Good job. We'll turn you into a manager. Oh, that's good. You was a manager. You'd be pretty good. Oh, that'd be good. Yeah, I could do. I could get my my fish off on. You just you just got it. If you want to be a heal, you got to learn to take bombs, though. Because nobody wants to know what you want to heal, manager, that can't take a bomb, you see. I want to learn how to take a bomb regardless. In life, I think it would be good for me to learn how to take a bomb. It's very humbling. I will show you that. I mean, you've done it.

“I've taken bumps in the ring. I got accustomed the ring and I know enough to not want to be in the, ah, what a bummer.”

It's pretty dangerous in there. No, but I'm just saying like, because I know you're probably so stoked about it. And then that happened and you were like, I got, I got the fact of reality.

I was just asking you to do this. I asked at the Hammerstein Ballroom for ECW in 2,000 in front of 2,400 people. Worth it? Well, last thing on wrestling because we could talk about wrestling. Every time a celebrity in this case, me shows up in an arresting ring, usually it's, it's some BS thing happens. You know, they say something mean to the crowd and somebody else. Or if they get bumped, it's, it's usually pretty light. It's, it's usually not violent. So the guy who was hitting me in the segment, whose name is, he was signed by Dudley and Lou, Louie, dangerously in ECW.

“Lou, I told Lou, it was my friend. I said, you got to really clock me because I don't want it to be one of these celebrity things like, ah, you know, they took it easy on him.”

I said, I really want you to hit me. So he had one of those old brick cell phones that was the Paul payments old gimmick from the eighties. So Lou was doing a version of Hayman, had a brick phone. And so I'm striking a pose. He comes up behind me and clocks me in the back of the head with the phone. And I was like, it was like, boom, you know, I saw the flasher. So that was what could cost you. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's okay. See. And then after it happened, the, a great wrestler Perry Saturn, yeah, came up and said, you know, you guys did that wrong.

But I didn't know there was a right way to do it. And the right way to do it is you're supposed to push the guy before you hit him. So 50% of his energy is moving forward. So when you hit him. Yeah, you know, the, the, the blow is, the force of the blow is transferred through the moving body. So you're, you'll, it'll look just as violent, but you take about 50% of the physical hit, but I took it standing there still. And I rigid because I knew it was coming. Yeah, so I went down like, ooh, that was it catch and about two hours later, I was in some five star eatery in Manhattan, like passing out my suit like.

So in the moment you didn't pass out your, no, but you get, they call it the flash. You get like I like almost like a like a like a light going on boom. And, and the wrestler beneath me was also a friend of mine. He said, I knew you were hurt because he said you paused before you fell. Because you have that moment when you go like, oh, yeah, something's wrong. And you're like, I'm supposed to fall down the knee fall down. Yeah, it wasn't natural. Like, oh, I've said, and I got to fall down. Yeah. So yeah, cool. So I'm not really dude. It was not early, but I did it.

We wouldn't want to concussion you in the end of you way. All right, back to you. So wrestling doesn't pan out. You don't become the next. It was just that point in my life. You could be, you could be, you could have been like a Seth Rollins. Think about that.

Honestly, he was probably right past when I stopped watching. Do you know Seth's work? I'm trying to pick up. I'm like, yeah, I know if I saw his face. You would definitely recognize Seth. Yeah, but I'm saying in terms of, so let's say for the error that you grew up watching. Yeah, trying to think Who would be a compartment. I don't know. Maybe ex-pock. All right, Bronco Besser.

But also a friend, great guy. You know, he lives out here somewhere. What's his name, Sean? Sean Wattman. Right. Great. Amazing guy. Bad ass wrestler.

One of the best ever. Yeah, incredible. But yeah, I was, I was going through these phases. It was wrestling. It was, you know, basketball. And then once I played that drum beat, that was it.

“It just sort of stayed girl's fault. Pretty much. Have you told Dave Rollins story?”

No. No. I'll do that next. I was like, when I meet certain people like to say, you know, it's your fault. You know what I mean? Like I beat my heroes and I'm like, you know, it's your fault to them. Yeah, I mean, he's definitely one of them. Yeah, amazing drummer. Yeah. I actually saw Nirvana with the original drummer who was, who was good, but not great, but when Groll was in the band, then it was just like.

So I imagine seeing the first drummer and then seeing him, you're like, yeah, I saw them on the bleach to or probably play in front of like 100 people.

And then I saw them, you know, when they were starting to really peek and we played with them once even. Like Boston back, you mean, once in early days, but then we were like, I think we, we open it was a, it was a building Boston. It was a band, great band called Bol, it was a Boston band. Then us then Nirvana. And that, even that gate wasn't even so that was like maybe 800 people in a thousand seat hall. But I saw Nirvana play probably, you know, eight, ten times through the years. I mean, I mean, for a, for a three piece band to have that ferocity, at least when I saw him, they were three pieces, you know, but I saw them like I saw them at the sort of the zenith of the smells like teen spirit kind of moment.

That was interesting.

“I mean, you guys were, did you come out before them or after them?”

Um, just before each was out, I think 89, 90, and our first record was 91. Oh, okay, cool. And then, but, as soon as he finished our first album, went and did never mind.

So that's where it gets kind of blurry in there because did they make things click for you in certain ways? No, um, you're already on your path. It was already. Yeah, I mean, I definitely, I, I mean, I have no compunction about saying Kurt was a genius, you know, he was so gifted. He was like a Jeff Hardy. You would look and say, how, how does this one guy just know how to do all this so naturally and and and also it seemed effortless. We're, we're into the rest of us felt like we were trying really hard. Kurt made it seem like he literally just was that guy, you know, of course it's not that simple, but right incredibly talented person.

And you knew he was talented and certainly the buzz around them was intoxicating. Because you felt this kind of like growing kind of, it just got louder and louder and louder and then when it crested MTV and all that it was like like a bomb going on. Boom, it was just suddenly the energy was everywhere. Yeah. So we all benefited from it, but musically we were completely different animals and for sure had different points of view. Which also probably felt good because I know like when I get to comparing myself, which is natural.

I also listen and I look and I'm like, why do I even need it? There's no point in doing that. Like I have such my own little thing our band has such our own little thing you do. Well, I just think just a couple of men I could play at pay you and I don't mean it to be self-serving as you wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't think you were distinctive. I'm not interested. Magnificent. No, what do you want for me?

Thank you. So that's the whole point is is to point out what makes artists different and not common and just like the rest of the game. Sure.

“So yeah, so I think we can get into some of the politics if you want now or later.”

One thing that was distinctive in the Gen X generation is you weren't going to succeed if you weren't different. There was no incentive to be like Nirvana or Pearl Jam or Alison Chains. In fact, if you did try to do that and many bands did and sometimes we would even play with those bands. The audience would just be like no way. Like it would be like I want one of those and one of those.

So the Gen X politics was you had to distinguish yourself almost you had to create your own world in your own ecosystem which so that was very shocking to the Gen X crowd. At least it was to me when that seemed to go away in the 2000s and it became more about people almost just starting to sound the same, same chord changes, same production.

Do you think that's a generation?

I mean, I do but I don't think that's your question. I meant to say I may be so the wrong word. Do you think that's just a part of getting older? Also, is that you look at things that are newer and because you have more knowledge, you're able to see all the ways that they're more similar. But when you're younger, okay, for example. When I was a kid, the Beatles, the Stones, the Beach Boys, Zeppelin and I know these are kind of they go into different areas.

But a lot of the music that was recorded of a certain era all sounded the same to me.

I could not tell you the difference. That's interesting.

The quality of it, the sonic actual the way it was captured. Sure, just sounded the same to me for the longest time. I didn't know the Beatles had multiple singers for so long, like these guys all sound the same. And then time goes on and you get to like notice the details more and appreciate it for me, at least appreciate it more. And because I think it's easy to say that about a lot of genres of music, you know, and I think it's just part of like growing up too.

“And you could see things and at least that's how I've, I found it with myself.”

Yeah, I did the deep room.

I think the, I think the, I think the dangerous thing. If you're in your, you know, I'm in my 50s. I think the dangerous thing is to look at another generation and sort of lump it all together. Yeah, and you're, you sound like the old guy in his lawn saying get off my lawn. You know what I mean? You kids don't understand or we had a better. So I think you need to be careful there. I do know, I do, it's a, let's call it a sense memory.

I do know that when I was in my generational time in my 20s, the distinctions between artists were glaring to me, but it's because I was in it every day. I was listening to these artists, so maybe the things that seem common to me or, or not is diverse for let's call it your generation's music. Maybe I'm not looking at it the same way I would look at it from the inside.

“Yeah, and that's why I'm saying, you have to be careful, but I do think there is enough evidence.”

I'm not trying to winch on my argument, but I do think there's enough evidence to suggest that something happened in the 2000s. It certainly had a lot to do with the internet. I don't know, you can tell me because you lived it and I just watched it. But it seemed that even if you devoid yourself of the argument I'm making, let's call it top line pop, which I would not put you in that category because you're on to something different. But I mean, the homogeneity there, particularly amongst female singers, top female stars became patently obvious, same producers, same production, same top lines, same people writing the top lines.

Yeah, that seems to be very tied, whether it's a generational politics or it's just your generation just happened to line up with the internet, putting an external pressure to that. So from your perspective, because my perspective is really not that important. What do you think am I mistreating that or if there's some strength to the argument, what put those forces in line to take music and seem to narrow it, maybe is the nicest way to put it? I mean, I'm just going off top right here, but I almost feel like it weaves through certain generations, like a production style hits like to me, also like.

Like the 80s have kind of been a harder thing for me to get into because so much of it just sonically sounds the same, it's like, you know, they're introducing more digital electronic things. It all just sounds like the same, you know what you're making a fantastic.

“You're making a fantastic point because that's how it felt when the 80s was happening.”

It was suddenly like everybody's got like big river gated drums and DX7 keyboards. Yes, and all these bands which I recently interviewed Kevin Crone in the lead singer of REO Speedwagon had massive hits. They were like a road touring blues, rockish band, and they made this transference in the 80s to like keyboards and big melody, you know, ballads, and suddenly all these bands that were very distinctive, suddenly congealed into this kind of production style. So I think you're making a great point there. Yeah, I think I think it all a lot of it has to do with production for me, like, and every, you know, five to 10 years, five to seven years, whatever, it something gets added or you can look at the use of auto tune now.

It's become so regular that like the coolest of the cool kids are making stuff without auto tune now, unapologetically. Like, it just, it's just how it goes. You know what I mean? Eventually it becomes something that's almost like nostalgia. Everybody's like, you know, drooling for 2016 right now. And I'm like, that's so funny to you. I know, it's made of me too. That's all kind of like, all right, you know, it's crazy about auto tune just as a side note. So I think we could talk about that too, but I have two nieces and both sing really well. I'm still trying to convince one to go into music, but it freaked me out because when my one niece Sophia was about 14.

Yeah, she had learned to sing a note, not her. It was like, hey, you learn to sing into it. Yeah. Yeah.

“So it's your perspective on auto tune. I want to, I want to get shot on the record on that.”

Um, I love it. I mean, because I saw live performance where you were using it. Maybe it was obviously a fact. It was cranked. So it wasn't like you were trying to hide because you can sing. That's not the issue. I mean, I can, but also you're up against perfection and people recording you on their phones and, you know, I know what I want to hear. Bottom line, I know what I would want to hear if I was out of ship. Okay, and I don't, and I am, I could be pretty pitchy.

So I'm really, I would, yeah, that's surprising. So I would much rather just, especially with the way it works now. Like the technology is so good. Dude, it's like, it's just freedom. And then I don't have to think about it as much. Like I'm, I, I really got up, I got to put it all, put it all out when I'm up there. So like, you know, anything that's going to be able to, you know, help me to just think about the words and the actual feeling that I'm feeling rather than here comes up.

There, there, there, no, but it, back down here, like, I would rather, I would rather just feel that freedom. And also it's like, you know, when you involve instruments that are tuned perfectly,

especially not string instruments. If you're having any keyboards or something like that or like any any track, which for the bands stuff don't really do that, but like I've done solo stuff and whatnot and like, you're, you're competing with literal pitch perfect stuff. So like, I will back you up on that. I just want to like blend in with it and like be able to because of the amount of tuning that goes on with music in this century as opposed to the last one.

“Yes. The, the standard for a singer is just exponentially higher because you're singing, you know, used to be the tuning was kind of a as long as it's between here and here.”

And then you'd find a spot where you sounded good in here and here. Well, records aren't even in, in, in key, right, like old stuff. Oh, no, it's, you try to tune your title to you're like, oh, I guess that's not even even now because you can understand because I grew up in an era before tuning there was ways to cheat. Even Nirvana cheated for sure. That's some inside baseball, but, but you know, that's, let's call it was limited cheating. But what I'm saying is is that, you know, because the standards of tuning and pitch correction have so heightened people's sense of, of perfect tuning, we call it used the word perfect your word.

That when I go back and I hear stuff that I did 30 years ago, sometimes I'm like, wow, I can't believe how out of tune it is, but we were convinced that was in tune. Yeah, because of the standard changing, so I'm with you on our whole first EP and a lot of the first album, no tune, but it's also like I sang differently and like going on tour and playing shows all the time and just like developing as an adult as a person in general and your taste changes and you figure out what, you know, I grew up also in like the heavy music scene where like just hucking it and just as loud as I could was like, also I couldn't hear myself because I'm playing in garages with, you know, or like in these,

little venues with really loud music playing, so it was, you know, I thought I was nailing it, maybe more than I was. And then like you just learn as tour happens. That's interesting. For me, I mean, if I'm in the studio, I could do anything. That's part of the joy of being in a studio.

I could do something 28 tries if I want. I could put any piece of technology on it, but when you're alive, it's like you get one try.

“That's what's going on there and see, I like the anxiety.”

Well, me too, I think I do it actually better, but I'm saying I like the anxiety of being imperfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not comparing us in that way. I'm just curious because to me, that's that is a generational difference. Do you know what I'm saying?

I like the anxiety of knowing that there is failure. Does that make sense? Yes. It's like staring at the sex, staring at an oncoming brick wall. Yes.

Every line. It's just, maybe I'm just adrenalineized. No, it's just part of the game. I definitely feel that way too. And also, I will say, there's something about when I really, when you really love an artist

and you watch them blow it live, it almost makes me like them more.

So I always think that to myself.

The biggest cheers we've ever gotten are when we started a song and had to stop because we were so, didn't run off. I mean, I get it. I love that too, right? If I'm an audience, I'm like, "Ooh, look at the really doing it."

Especially nowadays when so much is bullshit. Yeah. You need such a slight amount of really doing it. Yeah. Really, I think brings an audience in.

Okay. I have an old man question for you. Please bear with me. Explain to me. And this is a genuine question.

That's not a joke. What is a mixed tape? Because in 2011 you put out this, it's a mixed tape. And I know I've seen other people put up mixed tapes and DJs and what is it?

put on a tape and give it to them. Mixed tape became this other thing for your generation with like how to release music and how to associate with other artists. So give me your definition because I literally don't understand. It just, you know, it's like terms change.

As time goes on, I even think it's changed since we've put out our... Yeah. Okay.

“So when you put out one in 2011, what's a mixed tape to you?”

Well, I mean, I've been pretty heavily influenced by hip-hop. And I feel like that era, especially the mid to, you know, through the, through the arts. 2000s, mixed tape, like online, blog, culture was something that I was like. This is a way it just artists get together kind of share their music. What's free?

First and foremost, it's free.

Okay, good. So there's just the way people are using kind of soundcloud now on bandcamp and stuff. Is that similar mentality? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I know to young people watch in this thing. I think I'm sold, but I literally don't. No, but is it all changes? Yeah.

I mean, because even now, it's different, like I was saying, to work out. Okay. People will put out. Okay. So I don't feel so bad.

No, I mean, people will put out.

“Now especially, I think it's just a way, this is the way I contextualize it.”

As an artist, to feel like, okay, I want to put out a bunch of music, but I don't

want to call it an album. So we're just going to do this. It's not an EP because it's more music than seven songs or whatever. It might even be more than what an album would have. It might be like 20 songs.

The mixed tape that you put out, there's other people who are singing. Yeah, there's all features and stuff. Yeah. Well, because again, it was the point of it was to cross genre and work with rappers. That's what I wanted to do.

The band was actually a side thing as to my solo life that was happening. My manager who's here today, you met Kirk. He found me on the internet on a blog. I've a rap mix tape that I made. And that's like that.

So that was like, well, I get it. That's what I was going for. And then the band, which we get into that story, just kind of swept me off my feet. Yeah. And it turned into what it did.

Even that, I kind of fought against up until like 30 minutes ago. You know, like for the longest time. I was kind of hit pause on this because it does unwind because, you know, when I'm going to talk to someone like you, I have cursory knowledge of your life in your music. But then it's like, okay, I got a really no one I'm talking about.

At least pretend to. So see if this tracks for you from outside point of view. I was like, okay, this is interesting. Over here, you have the band, which is, you know, that's obvious, right. And then the success is obvious.

But then there's solo stuff that sort of predates and post dates and then the band takes the hiatus. So it's like the normal story that you make in your mind, which now you're telling me is that inaccurate. Oh, you know, the band starts people single him out of a lineup. Somebody's in his ear. You can go solo.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Guy sets aside his band. I mean, I was under the same pressures. I still regret I have.

I have. I've done three and there's a fourth when that's unreleased. Oh, sweet. Okay. Yeah.

Excuse me. No, no. It's so we find you. It's that there's anything I've learned. And some day, you'll maybe learn the same thing.

It's like assuming that people know what you do or what you've done is it's a fool's gold. Oh, I had an embarrassing moment the other day. With somebody where I, they introduced themselves, I don't know. They, they said, hello, they introduced themselves and said, you know, I said, oh, I'm Jesse and I go, I know, yeah, I'm a fan. And I was like, oh my god, so cool.

What's your name? And like once he said his name, I was like, did I tell, in my head, I'm like, I totally know who you are. But I just do this thing because I'm actually not used to people knowing who I am or thinking I'm someone else or something like that. To where I put, I put up this weird wall that I'm, I'm trying to stop doing that to and just accept the like, oh cool, you know, I'm there, you know what I mean, like, yeah.

“Anyway, well, I mean, I, you know, just to make you laugh, you know, sometimes people say, are you who I think you are.”

And if I say yes, they'll say some name, that's not me. And, and just insert some bald guy's name. Right, I mean, maybe Michael Steib, you know, I mean, like other famous bald guys in history. Yeah, so like, so I somehow you're really like so close to you. Well, I take Stone Cold's money.

I want to ask you about that too if I can. Yeah, go ahead.

So when you first shaved your head.

Yeah. What, what year is it? And did you ever grow up back out? I did. First time I shaved my head was about 94.

I didn't tell anyone I was doing it. I did it sort of on it. Full back, full body. Yeah.

And then it did grow back and it was grown back for body. Year. And then eventually I was like, so I'm just going to do it. Such a commitment, man. God, if I could commit to one thing like that, it's it's heavy.

You know, like nobody wants to deal with, let's call it whatever this is. But in my case, which was weird and totally unexpected, people seem more attracted to me, not just physically, but also character-wise. Yeah. Something about this seemed to put things together.

And I mean, so. I mean, it works so well. I think, really, I take, trust me, I take my hair back in a second.

My, my children, I have a 10, 7 and a baby and my children have this incredible hair, which is my old hair.

And I was joking. Yeah, curly hair, right? Yeah. Beautiful, bring it like, like, no joke. Women used to stop me on the street and say, how do you get your hair like that?

And I say, honestly, this is naturally. But it accused me of lying. Yeah. Because my hair was so unbelievably kind of beautiful and it's weird. Yeah.

My mom had the same hair. So I don't take any credit for the hair. But I do get whisked before it's something like that. All right, back to you. So I love the idea that there's this twin thing of the band and you.

So without going into everything, because a lot of that stuff's all in the record. And I like to try to talk about the stuff's just not on the record.

“But the band's success is surprising to you.”

I mean, it was not right. The, basically, the, I don't know if it's the first single, but the one song goes, "Coublou, you write away." Right? And it's masks.

And so are you like, well, this is crazy. I thought it was just kind of a cool thing. And, but are you suddenly, maybe the question I'm asking is, are you suddenly like, this is great, but I still want to do this other thing. And the band isn't necessarily everything I wanted to do.

Musically, like, walk me through that tension. Yeah, I was just kind of being a maximalist and doing as, as much as possible. You know, and just, I think I was under the impression for a long time.

Like, it was always a, oh, wait until they see what I do next.

Sure, kind of mentality. I totally understand. You know, so did you feel hemmed in by sort of not, I just maybe not the right way, because it sounds negative, and it doesn't mean negative. Like, sometimes something will happen with the band.

And some people want more of that. And you're like, but I want to do all this other stuff too. 100% and then you're navigating a band's politic and your own thing. I mean, being, you know, considered rock or alternative at all at the beginning. I was like, no, make pop music.

“It's not, this is, that's why I do that was always rock.”

Rock and also have their own politics, which maybe you're not a fan of. I'm a, I'm a huge detractor of it. Which I think helped me succeed in it because I was always like, I want you to care. You didn't care. I don't care about it.

That is the right mentality. I came to that, but it took me a while. Yeah, like, I didn't, that's not what I was really interested in. Like, I didn't think anybody around me were like, I was not, I don't want to be a dick, but I just wasn't interested.

I, yeah, it wasn't very cool or, especially in the era that I came up. And there was nothing that I was looking for. So just to walk you back through some early 90s politics. Interesting. So there were bands that registered on the Richter scale of like, great, your indie and you represent our values.

And there were other alternative bands that didn't work within those values. And they were mocked and castigated out of the cook kids club. So that is always there. And honestly, your approach is the best approach, which is just completely ignore that.

Because they ultimately don't have any power.

No, and I went back and forth with that, because there's-- You walk me through that a little bit. Well, because then there's the acceptance of, bro, you're dude in a band. This is a band, like, you're in a band. You just have to accept it. And like, sorry, you're not going to force someone to believe some other thing.

Like, look at yourself. Like, this is what's happening here.

“So then, it came, I think, years of comparison and jealousy and stuff like that.”

And just seeing other bands and what without naming names because you don't have to. What for you is an idealized state of you in the band or you solo or both. And what are those idealized states sound like? Is that too weird or something? Honestly?

Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, I would say we're at right now. For sure. As somebody who's listening to your music, I think your band is in the perfect state right now. Thank you.

I think I could say thank you to that, right? Yeah. It's a compliment. Yeah. Yeah.

It feels like I finally get it. And I finally want to be, it comes across that way, music. Cool. Like, it registers us like, oh, okay, right. It's all lined up.

Whatever, you know, without knowing, I mean, I'm obviously asking you now.

It feels like there's a sort of a relaxed, comfortable balance of force.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Kind of. You might if we take a musical, kind of, it's left turn, right turn.

“Uh, I think what I find interesting about you, because I tend to break down, uh,”

for lack of better regret, I tend to break down people's game. Like, what is the game? They're playing like a basketball game. Yeah, of course. Like, oh, you're good rebounder.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Singer to singer, songwriter, songwriter, something like that.

And the first thing that really struck me when I was doing deeper dive on music is the

amount of rhythm in your vocal, which is very unusual for people that are generally framed up as an alternative goth. Sure. And then I can see the hip hop part of that. So the fact that you seem to have found the right balance of the rhythmic approach musically, and then the band sort of sonic, that is really like a beautiful spot right now.

Do you feel that? That's such a cool, uh, a value or way to, way to, way to hear it. Yeah, it doesn't feel like one thing is betraying the other. Because sometimes there can be that where, um, and maybe it just took time to sort of like a, like a, like a soup.

It's just taken time to find the exact right balance of those forces. Because when I listen to your solo stuff, it's way more like you said more in the pop. Yeah. R&B. I don't know.

That's my generation. That's true. Sure. Yeah. I would definitely say, okay.

Like my part of my, my, my program is like growing up before I'm, I'm, I'm getting into hip hop. And getting into hip hop and getting into, you know, like hardcore and like heavier stuff or whatever. It's, it's like Justin Timberlake and in sync was like, and like, Brittany, like all the max Martins stuff and all that. Like I, I was, that's what I love.

Yeah.

“I just, have you worked with those like a top pop writers?”

Uh, some, yeah. Yeah. I haven't worked with Max. Um, but I've, I've, I've, I've made some cool songs. Uh, with some, with some, some big players.

Do you like that process? Yeah. That's fine. I, you know, I, I really do like it all. Yeah. But the band is where I shine.

The band, like, I, I, I just like have such a love for it now. And like a more, I honestly love for myself, which does take me a while to find. Because I'm just trying to search for that and trying to experiment to, to find that. So from your perspective, what is it about this moment where you feel that balance? Like I just gave you like my musical hot take, but what is your version of it?

Like, what is it about this moment? Like, have you reached a level of peace? Have you said this is the best movie? You know, sometimes I tend to think of like being in a band is like being in a movie. And an album is like, now we're on Spider-Man 4.

Yeah.

“You know, like, what are you, what do you want people to believe in?”

Like, for you, I know this is my language. But like, how do you view that? Why is it balancing out for you now? Um, well, taking, taking time away. Because we took like five years off, which is kind of wild because we're still. All things considered a, a young enough band.

Yeah. To take five years off, you know, which is a lifetime in entertainment world. It is. And getting back into the swing of it has really shown me that. And, and, and it's been amazing.

Um, but, um, yeah, I think the time away. Uh, what does it distance makes the harcro founder just as, has made me appreciate it more. And I'm not going to lie like the, the, the success that we've seen in the time away. Seemingly when, you know, speak for myself when I decided to do nothing. And so much happened.

And I just come from a place where I'm such a trier and such a, like, I, you know, hungry, like, going to do everything to make sure. And, and that got exhausting and wasn't paying off to the, to the, to the level that I thought it would pay off, which is a whole other twisted thing that probably shouldn't expect anything like that.

But because of my routing, I was always kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm supposed to be this whatever.

And, and when it didn't happen the way I thought it would happen was still happening. It's still totally happening. It, uh, it just like, amongst other things in my life, you know, I, I just needed to like stop it. And the time away, watching the songs flourish that, you know, we're not singles, you know, that are several years old. Like we, maybe just a thing that happens now, but I, like, it almost seems like now I'm okay with the, with the weight.

Like, that, how can anybody get to your, to your record right away? How can everybody get to your record right away? There's way too much stuff to get to. There's way too much old stuff for people to get back to like, I mean, being a little kid,

And then I get old and I start listening and I'm like, God, no, this is really, you know, there's so much to get to. I just can't believe anybody.

“And we're lucky enough to have this success that we've already had.”

Now we get to go on, on a sold out arena tour, which we've never done.

So it just feels like it's new again. And it's like the coolest feeling ever to feel like, because you know, it gets old. I get just, or it just gets, like anything. It just gets usual. And I needed to like get away from it and to appreciate what my usual actually gets to be.

Yeah. And how to set it, you know, to where this point forward, I could, I could sustain it more. I could sustain myself more and understand it more and love it, appreciate it for what it is. The old songs, the newer ones were writing, you know, I get it, yeah. This is slightly different, but tangentially connected.

What do you is the modern star? Because the calculus by which we used to in the music business to note, startup is so different now. In the old days, it was pretty simple. Were you on the magazine cover?

Were you appearing on David Letterman's TV show? Or something of equivalent value? How many records did you sell? How many tickets did you sell? But as you know, in particular to this, your generation was the first generation to face this,

you can be a huge internet band. And you can't sell more than a thousand tickets in any major Arabian city. And then you have these other artists, and there's many of them now, where there are arena bands. They actually don't have that many fans. But they're able to compress that fan base into a success.

Yeah, the data never lines up.

And it's always, it's all out of balance. But this is maybe a boring way to answer this question. But it's almost like, like, the technology of our telescope got improved. Yeah. And now we could see more stars in the sky.

And just because it might not, you might not be able to see them just looking up with the naked eye. If you take out your telescope and now we all have these telescopes. So it's kind of unlimited stars, like depending on where you're looking and what lens you're looking through. Because there's a corner for everybody. There's a, you know, there's a sky for every star.

“Do you, do you find yourself looking for external definition of where you place in that firmament?”

Or do you look towards the past, like, how do you calculate your own success? And I don't mean even material ways because I think, again, there's so many different ways to calculate success in this, in this interesting time. I mean, what do you, what makes you, what gives you confidence or assurance or some sense of, like, yeah, what I set out to do, I did. Well, when I think of, when I think of Jeff Hardy, when I think of Alan Iverson. But I mean, honestly, being on this show is the name of the show alone is kind of a good example.

It's like, this is who I wanted to be. Yeah. You know, I might have seen Justin Timberlake on the way and then, like, that's it. And there's a piece of me that has that, you know, that's part of my inspiration. Yeah.

That, like, full bright, unapologetic, but star, right? But I also, like, am who I am. And I like that part of myself. I like my, I like my story. I like that. You know, and we live in an era where if you're not screaming your story, then nobody hears it. But that's also why I'm grateful for, like, a moment like this.

You want to sit down with me and you want to ask me about it. Yeah. And that really means a lot to me. And because there is still that, that, that little kid that grew up in that generation that looks at that, that type of idealistic star. Yeah. And well, in the reverse, we've had to struggle with because we grew up in a different metric.

Like when I remember doing an interview once in the guy said something about, well, you stop selling records. And I go, well, yeah, everybody did. Yeah.

But the guy, the journalist was still saying, well, in 1995, you sold six million records.

And I was like, but Beyonce doesn't even sell it.

“That's how it worked, bro. Yeah. But it's, but there's still in this logic.”

So invariably, consciously and consciously, you sort of grew up in a different system of. It'd be like if you grew up using your basketball analogy, it'd be like, well, it doesn't mean anything to score 25 points like AI just to do every night. Yes. Right. It'd be like, no, that doesn't matter anymore. We measure how effective you are when you run the court and whether your team is plus or minus and data, data, data. So whether you score point like, and you've seen in baseball now, the home run is become everything in baseball.

I don't know, baseball fan. Not necessarily. Okay. But somebody grew up in, in a different time with baseball, the home run was, yeah, was a home run.

Oh, it's like when the first two did a back-up on a dirt bike, it's like, good luck competing without doing that. You just can't do it.

Okay, that's what I'm saying. How stuff has changed the game with three pointers. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. It's just things change that way.

Yeah.

“But even another example, what you're doing right now, I think is so cool that you are, you've committed to doing this.”

I feel like I've been committed, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. But you know, you see like a comedian that maybe, you know, maybe their stand-up isn't, they're strong to soup with their podcasts, bomb.

And their banter is just like, and that's, that's all just my, yeah. Yeah. Good to pick that opinion. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Like, I'm, well, that was, I'm fascinating with that. And I think I've, I think I've been finding, I don't, I still don't feel like, you know, I still feel like I'm finding myself or rather you're finding me. Sure. Well, yeah. Well, in the generation I grew up in, you wouldn't have done the podcast because people would automatically assume you have nothing to say musically anymore.

Right. So you've had to like become a TV host or something. Right.

“And now you're like, no, I think I would be good at this and I want to do it.”

Yeah. And only there's nothing to feel any sort of shame about. Yeah. I just think we're into a different generational construct in terms of like, not, it's not as simple as being who we are, but maybe lean into things that you're good on. And don't worry about how it falls, falls apart or falls together.

Like, when you said you almost had to step away from your programming of like, I got to keep going. I got to keep going and things came together almost organically because you were able to step away. Similar logic. Right. It's just like, don't get to in the, in the weeds about whether or not a podcast is good or bad for your other pursuits.

Yeah. I took a lot of crap when I got into wrestling because people were like, why are you into wrestling? I would literally see comments where people see, I can't listen to his music anymore. Now that he's in a wrestling.

“And I would think like, what is me having this other life and this other thing that has almost nothing to do with music?”

How does that kill your buzz? I think it's hard for us as consumers when someone tries to change lanes. I mean, I'm guilty of it too. Like, like, so we all have it. There's no shade on it. I mean, I do it too. I mean, I make stupid assumptions about people and later I have to kind of check my, my,

I don't know, my assumption. Well, I believe from watching your show that this is an exercise and you actively doing that because I know you're an opinionated guy. And I feel like to take it on this way and rather than to be like, this dark, you're like, hmm, what is it about this dark? And you're looking into it and I think it's really nice and really inclusive. Oh, yeah.

I, I, I'll tell you one thing that I don't think I've ever talked about, maybe I have, but it's short, but it's a 90's thing. But when we first got successful and we got out of let's call it the stupid Chicago politics. I made this really dumb assumption, which is once we were into like, let's call it the bigger politics, the New York London Tokyo politics, everyone would be nicer and it was the exact opposite, everyone was meaner.

So I never found that greater musical community until much later in life, now that everybody's a little older and a little friendlier.

So I can get together with my peers and we can laugh about how we used to try to cut each other's throats, share the charts. So my idealistic piecing concept is that we're in the same team, maybe if we don't know each other, and it's incumbent upon us, particularly for us, let's say, on the rock side of the equation, to work together to bring rock and organically, heartful music back to the kids, however that works, because I think it makes the world a better place. Pop is fine, I mean, I grew up with Michael Jackson and Princeton, all that stuff, there's nothing wrong with pop, I love pop too.

But when pop becomes the dominant sort of social force, like if you're not this and you don't check these boxes, somehow you're lesser than, or if you're not selling out a stadium or something, that's I think that's a really weird message to send to a kid. It puts a really weird pressure on them as a musician. And so what ends up happening is you get this cleaning of all musicians feel they have to be so integral and so authentic and so different. You know, they basically, there's like every part of them has to somehow represent something different, their hair color, everything.

Yeah. And then the pop thing, it becomes so about perfection, almost like an impossible, almost like a high level of perfection.

So you basically don't have a musical middle class, but the musical middle classes where most people live, they have jobs, kids, lives, aging parents or whatever, they just have to figure it out.

So when the two things become either so idiosyncratically,

Yeah, yeah, and if it's not, I just think accessibility is is things are more accessible now, that's why I said earlier like the corner for everything and if you have the internet, you can find, you can find a spot.

“But I'm not arguing with them, just giving you slightly different angle on that. Yes, but we're all aware of the systems of reward.”

Does it make sense why I'm saying it? So at different times in your life, you, I, other people are rewarded, like good job, you, you, you got the right message, you know, and the business swoops in, you know, I mean, this fine, it's a capitalism. For a lot of people, it sends the wrong message if the, if the things being reinforced are ultimately, they're so disparate from their lives that they don't, they can't relate.

But do you just think that that's, that's just the type of person, like I feel like it's always been there, maybe it's louder than it was.

I'm not saying it wasn't, I'm saying is across the arc of, let's call it an aspirational figure like in a read the Franklin. Sure. One of the greatest singers ever grew up in the church, crossed over from gospel to pot, made some of the most important music ever, not even just soul music, just important views. Okay, that's an aspirational journey. Barbara Streisand, you know, a once in a generation singer goes on to be an actor and a director, that's a different aspirational story. But in between those types of polls of like talented people taking you on a particular journey, there's a lot of people just make really good music.

“They don't, they don't have a funny haircut, they don't need to have a story with your social media message. So that's what I mean about the musical middle class.”

And alternative music historically up until recent times had some general representation of it. It's like they used to say about the remains. Or the velvet underground, more people started bands than they sold records because they were so inspiring like, oh, I can be that guy or that girl too. Well, that's why it's kind of cool to see the hardcore scene kind of like a hardcore music in general having having more of, or having, having more of a moment, you know, right now. Yeah, yeah, or you know kids not wanting to use auto tune or, you know, obviously having out of tune and out of time songs.

No, take me down this rabbit hole before we kind of wind it up here. Chip Chrome and the monochromes. I found this and I thought, yeah, sorry excuse me. Now you're good. I knew I was going to mess up something, but I explained this to me because as a casual observer, I was like, okay, this is an interesting curiosity.

“And I went and listened to the music and I thought, okay, this is, I'm not sure where to place this, but I kind of get the point. So walk me through that.”

Because I'm obsessed with avatars. That's the the word I use sweet. Yeah, working behind a character or a mask. Yeah, I mean, okay, so chip was. It was kind of a response in a reaction a little bit. I was pretty depressed at that point.

And yeah, we kind of, you know, as far as saying about things getting, why I'm, first of all, why I'm so grateful that things have turned out the way that they have so far.

And the time that we took away from the band has kind of lifted up so many songs and, and our music and our band in a way that is just like, beyond me, you know, nothing to do with, we were off grid fully off grid. So it's only the music that I could blame it on. And I'm brought in a whole new generation of people. It's just a cool thing. But at that time, it felt really stagnant. You know, we come out the gate with what now is one of the biggest songs ever. What has turned into that was what I weather. So we come out the gate like that.

Have the whole first year doing all this stuff, you know, you know, you get in court and by everybody, you're playing late night, you're playing the festivals, you're doing all the stuff for the first time. Oh, it's just like, what a rush, right? What a dream come true inside of the label all the time.

And then, you know, oh, wait till they hear this next one. They hear it. They don't quite think the same. And then, okay, well, but okay, but we, we get, okay, we do the third record.

Just things just felt like, not like they were failures, but like there wasn't upward motion. And or it was very, very, very, very gradual, like very, very slight, which while I was experiencing it in the moment. And tell me if you felt this too, when that, when that happens, whatever, let's call it gradual, it feels like like everything's going like, It doesn't feel like gradual growth. It almost feels like somebody's dimming the whites or something. 100%. Okay. And you're like, hold on, you know what I mean? You're like, like, you, you, you see people around you start to, do you see people around you start to those confidence, too?

Yeah, no, everybody was pretty, and the guys in my band, especially, we're just like, you know, I think it was always enough and exciting for them.

And I just was programmed the way that I was to be like, no, no, but this isn't it, like we're supposed to be at this, I get it. It's ridiculous, but also that's just a product of being like a person on the internet, too, and so chronically online, and you know, are you still chronically online? I would say so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, social media and auto tune in my favorite drugs, but no, okay, so basically it was, it was where we were about to finish our contract with Columbia. And we actually asked to be let go, and they didn't let us go. And some some sign of value.

I mean, yeah, I knew we had enough value, but like still, it was just kind of what I did it. So I kind of was in the mindset of like, I got to switch it up, like we got to do, I, I'm going crazy, like we got to do, we got to do something else. This isn't, this isn't working, like this isn't the way it's been going, isn't getting enough of a pop, like I'm not getting enough of a reaction here.

“So like, and I'm just a firm believer and like you have to get people to look in order to get into listen, especially in this day and age.”

And, you know, I was just being chronically online and seeing all the the other artists and band guys that I was getting tagged in pictures next to that I just felt like I couldn't really relate to and, you know, you get pigeonholed into a thing and then you're just like, but I'm not that thing. What was the, what was the pigeonholed? Just like, you know, like all guys of this, of this era, you know, and no, no shade. I mean, some great, some great artists really, but just like not how I really viewed myself.

And I just wanted to do something differently bad. And then of course, there's Bowie and Kiss and these references that I'm sorry. Actually, my next question was about Bowie. So if you wanted to jump into that tangent.

“Yeah, I mean, naturally I was going to get there, but yeah, I kind of was just like, I had the idea for the character like I had the name.”

I didn't have the look, but I had like the name and this, I was kind of working on a project with some other friends that maybe was going to be that. And then I wrote this song. And we, we worked on the studio and finish it together, called middle of somewhere. It was the first one that kicked off that era. It's the last song on the album. And it just, it was different. It really was the first time I'd ever picked up a guitar and been like, I want to play the guitar on this song. And like on stage, I want to be a guy with a guitar, not like just front man.

It was like, it, and we were, and I was playing in standard tuning. All of our other stuff is in D standard. So it just felt like something a little bit different.

And I was really proud of the song and the boys really loved it. We were all really proud of it. And it felt like something we'd never done before.

And I was just like, we were going to shoot a video for it. I had a friend coming over to shoot a video. We had rented a house in Coldwater Canyon. My buddy was coming to the next day to shoot a video after we had finished the song. And, or maybe it was a couple of days later. So I went to Hollywood Boulevard the next day. Got the Spandex suit. Like, you know, when get some got my makeup, whatever it was, and just kind of like walked into the house the next day and just showed up.

“Chip just walked through the door and everybody was kind of like, oh, what?”

But like, we know each other so well that like, I don't think I could do anything to surprise them at this point. They were just like, yo, crazy. Pretty tight. All right, cool. And, and, and I think a lot of my thinking also is just like, if this is like, if people hate this or if this, if this explodes the whole thing, then I don't care. I'm just, I was just kind of at that place where I was just like, I needed, I needed that. I needed a high, I needed something that I needed to take that risk, especially with something that felt pretty solid.

I mean, our, our situation was solid. It wasn't as exciting as I wanted it to be as as as exciting as I wanted to be, but it was, it was, you know, I wasn't appreciating it for a consistent, it, it was.

There I guess, but I had to disrupt it and do something. And at first, it really didn't go over well with like the audience.

But then about a year of doing it and making some videos and taking it on tour, it really turned. And you know, there's a, there's a demographic of our audience that that are is oftentimes seemed to sometimes be people that I directly seem to relate to the most that that have come up to me and friends of mine.

where either, you know, artists in our, you know, because you only have a big hit.

And you're making pretty poppy music. It's a pretty young audience and especially for us at first.

And again, my goal was pop, but we didn't quite make it there. We were like, you know, and then we got stuck in my opinion in this all thing because we didn't get to go all the way, which pretty grateful that we didn't at this point, but so I was kind of just like, I just needed to do something. I needed, I, and yeah, it was like a kind of a cultural social response, everything that was going on as well.

“I just felt like I didn't really, I wanted to, I think, I, I just wanted to, to play with identity a little bit more and with,”

and with, and with, and we, were you conscious of Bowies the obvious example? Were you conscious where people had played with identity before? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just to touch on Bowie for a moment.

He was someone that was always mentioned to me while I was growing up, like, because I've constantly changed, like, I've always changed my hair, my outfits.

It's femme. It's masculine. I do this genre of music. I do, so I just do whatever the fuck I just have always done that. And I had, I had people tell me in the past, like, oh, it's kind of like a Bowie vibe, and I never really knew his music because I probably grouped it in with all the other old, but I didn't really care about, and, and then it was interviews that really got me in, and I watched probably his, like, Dick Cavitt interviews. Yeah.

“It was a coke dot of his mind. Well, that one, I think there's a later one where he's maybe not as much, but just through all the errors.”

I mean, like, you know, even, like, into the '80s and '90s and, you know, it was definitely a sage visionary. He could see what was coming before most people for sure. And, like, I think I relate to that. I don't, you know, and once I tapped in and once I, like, listened to the man talk, and he gave me kind of the same feeling that maybe someone like, like, Jeff had given me at a point in time. It's like, oh, okay, so I could, like, you could be like that. You could be a man, and you could, and you could be like that, you know, and this, this, this, like,

kind of fluidity with on every level, musically, sexually, gender, yeah. It just, it just, it just, like, hit me, you know, or when I heard, like, you know, like, listen, like, two pocket interviews. Like, there's sometimes there's people that come along that are just like, wow, you are just, like, you make, you make this life so much easier for me. And then, and then, and then, and then usually I get to the music. So it was kind of the man first with Bowie, the person first, and then getting into the music.

And then, of course, Ziggie is just like, yeah, it's just the coolest thing anybody's ever done. I mean, yeah, yeah. It's interesting you bring up two podcasts, you know, he was a theater kid. Bowie was a mine.

“And I think both of those things informed the way they saw how to present themselves in public.”

And maybe that you're acting background sort of registers on maybe a different level than somebody hadn't done acting, right? Because, you know, acting in rock and roll is kind of a dirty word. You know, I mean, because people want to believe the performers they're seeing is in that moment. It is an organic representation of the thing that's happening between artists and audience. The minute you explain to people that there is some form of acting going on, they get, especially an alternative.

They get kind of like, whoa, what does that mean? Was, was the album that I liked that wasn't really you? You know what I mean? Yeah, of course. And some of it's almost a betrayal of why they believe in you. But that's their relationship to not the artist relationship to themselves. And I understand that, because again, I'm a fan and a consumer of things too. Yeah, I know how it feels to feel like you've been duped or something.

Yeah, was it so obviously it's sort of a fun, laugh, luck. Hey, we're just going to try something different that people didn't accuse you of being disingenuous or, or did you find that? Uh, with Chip? Yeah. Uh, we asked him about that one more time. All right. Sometimes when you present a different mask in public,

these people will do the math and start to accuse you of being inauthentic either in the present or in the past.

No, it wasn't even that. It never really felt quite that.

It just kind of felt like, which is part of why I did it too. I think there was like, you know, there's a certain, uh, there's a certain, type of, you know, type of fan or viewer that's like, Why would you do this to yourself? Like, you look weird and scary and whatever else?

You know what I mean? It's just like, it's not always about that.

And also I didn't really feel, I felt like that was more my angle than like, looks maxing for the most part. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know what looks maxing as I hear the term.

“So you have to inform me what that means.”

Well, I'm just like, you know, I have eyes too. I see what I look like. I see where my advantage is are, but I could also see where there's other people where really you got to look at that face. You got to look at that body. Whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like sometimes that's it. And I just didn't feel like that was the main thing.

And I kind of wanted to rid myself of that, of even thinking that too. I just wanted to go into a more artistic expression, rather than like a sexy, you know, and sometimes I feel the other way. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes you want to feel a bit sexier. But at that point I was just kind of like, and also Chip was sexy.

Chip, Chip made me, I've had some friends actually say to me before. Like, actually that was the most you thing. Like that is, and I've referred to Chip as my silver lining because it kind of felt like that. It kind of felt like this guy was just so worn down and rather than putting something on. And Chip almost felt like that what was underneath.

And you know what I mean? Like the thing that was, it really did like in a lot of ways saved me. And I don't mean like, you know, like, from like a, you know, dying and like a, I get it. You know what I'm saying, but just on like an artistic creative level, like I really needed that. And yeah. Okay, last question.

Is it too soon to assess or evaluate your generation's success and/or failures? My whole generation? Sure. Is it too soon? Yeah. Um.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe. It's full transparency. I'm married to Millennial. Okay. So I live it every day. But he's good and bad.

We're good and not as good. What do you think though?

“No, I think, I think your first record came out what?”

2012 or 2012. Okay. So we're 14 years. I mean, that's about the right amount of time to like say, Okay, was that valuable, not valuable. You know, I mean, that's kind of when it started for me and my, so that seems about right.

So that's why I'm asking you if you think that's fair. My head just goes to technology and because we're still in the streaming era, and less something until, I don't know what it'll be. But, but people also didn't know what it would be when CDs came. It was like sure.

Look at their smaller and the last one and they can't get better in this. And then we've went away from the physical, you know, you're world at all and we're getting more into the, you know, or less into the physical world, I guess. Or it's, or it's your argument that time is less important now.

No, I'm just saying like, like, you know, we got in right at the beginning of the streaming era. And we're still in that.

Well, I think what I said to my wife is your generation is the first generation

that only new technology. Yeah. The generations before had, you know, they existed to the transition into technology. But your generation was like technology from the, from the go. Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. So in that way, you guys are kind of like astronauts. You're like the first test case, how is this going to work? How is this going to impact self identity, gender, fashion, music?

“So I think that's why it's interesting to start evaluating you from the perspective of like,”

okay, if you're going to, if you're going to paint a kid read from the first day that they're born, what effect is that being painted read from the first day they're going to have? Yeah. If their first artistic output starts around here. Yeah.

You know, mid 2000s I think is what generally people would call it. Okay, now we're far enough out to say, okay, you know, I mean, it's going to be a,

you're going to, people are never going to start to stop evaluating your generation.

I mean, I'm 30 years into Gen X and people are still talking about the good and the bad and every year it changes. Some bands rise, some bands fall, some artists are held up as heroes that we're not even close to heroes in the time. And other people who were huge in the time are completely forgotten. So it becomes this kind of football game, cultural football. Yeah, the valuation. So that's why I was asking is do you think it's, it's appropriate to start now?

Yeah, I, I don't think it's inappropriate. Yeah. Okay, so, so give me your, give me your hot take on your generation. You can take it anyway you want. So that's actually a weird question.

So a value way, the success, what is it? No, the, my generation. All right, this is great. All right, give me your, give me your hot take on your generation. Has your generation succeeded in its goal?

Has it been, has it been a failure?

As, I'll give you a new perfect example. When I was on sort of, let's call it the 14, 15 year mark of my generation. And I started being asked those questions. I said to Gen X was a failure. I mean, I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people say that about their respect of generation because it kind of informs the one after that.

And I'm not trying to project on you. That's how I, I feel that for sure. I definitely think, so if my generation is very responsible for the delusion that we're all stuck in now. And the, the, the, the, the.

Are you including us all of us, right?

What do you mean? I'm saying it's not just the, if you, The generations of the past two. And yeah, exactly. I mean, I sometimes I feel trapped in sort of millennial stuff.

Oh, I just feel, I don't even feel trapped in it.

“But I just, I do feel a bit responsible for this era of like the truth is what you want it to be.”

Sure. But I also, to believe that. And I have a hard time. Um, how do I say this? It's very numb.

Feels very numbing. It feels very, like, like. I can't, I have trouble. I don't even know. I don't want to like, even argue about anything or like have much to been opinion on anything.

Because it doesn't really feel like it really matters, unfortunately. And I don't believe in answers. And I think, you know, it just. It's kind of a wonderful thing to, you know, like even, you know, looking at something like with TikTok.

It's like, and I've said this so many times. So, um, yeah, but it's okay. You can repeat answers, sure. Yeah, I haven't said it to you. So, but it just feels like the secrets out.

We're all artists.

“And, and it, and you should not be that way.”

Even if it's not necessarily true, but there's a way to do it or to fake it or to get yourself out there and become, you know, an artist and creator. We're aligned in that because the thing I do say in a positive frame of mind is that this technological shift has allowed more people to participate in the conversation than ever before. Correct.

So, however, they're participating. I think that's a good thing overall. I think, as you pointed out before, the hard thing is an artist is somehow, it's hard to ascertain sometimes what value is because the old systems have eroded. The new systems don't really stick. They seem to change by the day. I mean, you know, remember there was that one year where influencers were being paid millions of dollars to hold up soda cans. And that's all going on away because advertisers realized that influencers didn't have as much influence as they might have thought.

So, if I'm trying to make any point, it's, you know, it's looking at the good and the not as good and the good side of the equation, which, you know, you're suitfully pointing out is that there are more people contribute to the artistic conversation than ever before. What's misdefying it to someone like me who grew up in a different generation is there's so much information and no one can seem to make up their mind that it's like the thing I'm supposed to care about today is not the thing I'm supposed to care about tomorrow.

Oh, and if I care about this thing, it inherently means that I don't care about this thing. Yes. Yes. And I don't think it's true, but that's part of what we had to get passed in the past, which is like one person in order for one person to win another person has to lose. I don't think we live in that economy anymore. Yeah, but I definitely grew up in a time. Let's call it, you know, a harsher time for many reasons.

“Did more binary, even if you want to put it that way? That's a perfect way to put it. Good and bad winners and losers.”

Yeah, and so like for example, when I was pointing out to you about alternative culture in the early 90s, the reasons certain artists were held up and sort of pushed to the top of rock mountain was that they would say, well, these are the artists that stole the values that we the writer class want. And but in order to push them up, they had to push other people down. Yeah, so you have this bullying culture in the journalistic class where one artist could do no wrong and the other artists could only do wrong.

Yeah, so sometimes when I've talked about the bullying that went on in the 90s from the journalist to class towards the artists that they didn't agree with, I'm obviously one of them. Sometimes I'll tell people to go back and read those articles and they cannot read, believe the language in it. Because well, it's it's beyond harsh, it's it's in need to assassinate one to extol the other.

So if the equanimity of maybe more people participating in this more of an up and flow, if that sort of is less ultimately harsh, that's probably a good thing.

But it's harder sometimes to delineate the lay lines of who's winning and who's losing because there's really no referees anymore, not that I even agreed with the referees, but at least there was this sort of clear.

Sure, yeah.

“Well, and I just think everything, it's it's also loud and the things that are really the loudest, like, you know,”

and we're all competing on the same field now, like, you know, we're competing with politicians and models and, you know,

if you're on the same thing, it's all the same thing. We're all the same. Which in one way is like, no, but in other ways, like, yeah, but that's kind of the issue is that people still don't want to like agree on on that, which, you know, it's easy to understand that too. Something's alien to you.

“It's scary and it feels like the last thing that people still want stars.”

Right now, and we're taping this in 2020.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Why?

Hope. Okay. Distraction.

Same old reasons as I always think.

“Maybe it's one of those the more things change the more they stay the same.”

Yeah. History repeats itself. Geez, Louise. Awesome. Pleasure.

Great talking.