Leslie Iwerks | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

what are the career really allowed you to travel the world and meet all sorts of people you

never get to meet? Your grandfather's above-eye works. You started basically Disney animation.

“Above always said, you know, anyone can draw a mouse. That's what you do with at the”

counts. First thing comes to mind and it seems so honorable that you wanted to tell his story. I think it's a beautiful thing. Without up there would have never been a Mickey. So, he literally saved Disney animation of did. That's insane. Yeah. Like it's truly insane. It is. That's the eye works. Thank you so much for being on my show. I'm so appreciate you being here. A quick resume because I think it sort of sets up the thing. So, you're a very accomplished documentary.

Filmmaker is that a fair thing to say or just film maker. I'll always take a accomplished I like it. Okay. Just a quick resume on you. And this isn't complete. This is I'm just cherry picking hand behind the mouse. The up-eye works story, which is also involved your family. Recycle life to Pixar's story, dirty oil, elaborate and industrial light magic

“creating the impossible. Piped dreams, citizen hurts, the imaginary story, super power. The DC”

story hundred years of Warner Brothers and of course the latest Disney handcraft. That's quite a resume. You got going. Thanks. It's kept me on a trouble. Did you and I know you went to film school but I mean, did you want to be a documentary filmmaker? Because it seems to me it's a very particular discipline. Yeah. Well, not really. I went to film school thinking I'd be doing narrative and

never took a documentary class in film school at USC but I graduated and I had this burning

desire to tell my grandfather's story because the people that worked with him were passing away and I had never known him. I mean, he was like, maybe you were like one year old. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I thought, well, this would be an opportunity for me to get to know him through other people. Sure. And so I adventure to make my own documentary about about him. So that was, was so real quick, your your grandfather's obi works. You started basically Disney animation

with Walt. Right. It going all the way back to Kansas City and all this stuff. So, I mean, he's the true pioneer for people don't know their Disney history. Exactly. He was, but was Disney involved in the making of the obi, I work stalking the story. Yes, they funded it. Okay. Which is the first way you were saying because I, because I know it was important. Um, so that was my first documentary and it was a passion project. Yeah. And then that was successful enough for Disney

to put it up for Academy Award. And, and then John Lasseter saw it, I'm screened it up at Pixar and said, would you tell our story? Oh wow. And so that led to the Pixar story. And then I went

“from there. It was like, yeah, Ilim saw it and said, will you tell the George Lucas story of Ilim?”

And, and then it led to actually recycled life was right after that, though. That was about people living in the largest landfill in Central America in Guatemala City. So that was my second film that I directed and shot and edited. Pretty much did all of it except produce it. And that led to an Oscar nomination and then Pixar story got eminominated. So I think between the two back to back it kind of solidified this future path of dots, which I really enjoy doing.

But did you, did you at any point feel like, do I really want to do this or this is like my calling? Cause obviously it's working. Like, well, just walk through that a little bit. I mean, I think it was both. I, I love to travel. I lived at meet people. I lived at interview people. I lived as, you know, what other career really allows you to travel the world and meet all all sorts of

people you'd never get to meet. And interview them in depth. So to me, that's been really fun.

And, you know, do I still want to do narrative? Am I still pursuing narrative? Yes. I was talking to a document, Terry, and recently, involving myself. But, you know, I'm watching this person really wrestle with the idea of asking me to come into their life for two years. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so the question I thought to ask you was, um, do you feel that like when you take on a subject? I mean, you're talking about big subjects whether it's Pixar or the

Imaginiring story? I mean, these are big subjects, but lots of moving pieces. Do you kind of question your sanity or whether you want to dive into that ocean? Cause I get imagined of films got to take you at least a couple of years, right? Yeah. It's an investment for sure. And you want to know that it's going to be a worthwhile endeavor and it's going to be a compelling story and it's going to have all the elements to an important story until that hasn't been told before. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely

comes to me, I'm, you must get pitched a lot. I would imagine. Yeah, I do. Um, and not everything's, you know, what I want to do, but a lot of it, you know, it is so. Yeah. It's just juggling the how much can I tap. You know, what? What do you think of the modern form of the documentary? I mean, in my mind, the rise at Netflix sort of, I should forth this whole new generation of documentary films, but also this maybe like, now you're getting into different takes on how to make a documentary.

I love, I love experimenting with different styles and I appreciate everybody that's telling

amazing stories out there, you know? I mean, it's a cool group of filmmakers in the Academy

Branch that I'm into. Yeah. Yeah. Just, it's just fun to celebrate each other's work. Yeah. Have you

“seen this documentary? I think it's called the Mother of All Eyes. I have not yet. It was made by,”

I think, uh, maybe it was a Moroccan filmmaker. It's very interesting because, uh, in, in her case, she didn't have, there was no archival footage. It was about a massacre that happened in her village before she was born, but severely affected her family. So in her and her father built this set into the use of, like, handmade dolls and the setting of the, what the village looked at the time. She recreates the emotional narrative of what happened to her family and the village.

But she had no, she didn't even have one piece of documentary footage. And I thought it's so groundbreaking because, you know, the first thing is a documentary person. I've obviously done stuff with my band. It's like, you know, it's like, you're like, I wish we had that moment of you shaking so and so's hand.

You know, there's always that moment and any kind of stuff. Like, if only somebody had taken a picture.

And all she had for the whole film was one photo that somebody sneakily took of people lying dead on the street from the massacre. But that's all she had. Wow. And she built this really incredible,

“beautiful documentary. So I think the evolution of the form is interesting because as somebody's”

out there looking at my own situation of a documentary point of view, you know, everybody's got their own take on the, and you know, with music, as you can imagine, is falling into this very talking head. Archival footage, talking head, archival footage. Well, there's somebody in cool ways to tell stories now, with animation and graphics. And yeah, absolutely. Do you love the purity of the documentary form? What's your personal deeper attraction now that you're in it and you're accomplished in it?

You know, what keeps you in the game a bit. I think it's telling stories that haven't been told before and finding new ways to tell them and inspiring audiences. Yeah. You know, in new ways. Yeah. I don't know if that answers your question. No, I think that's true. But it's, it's really wise. You know, it's, it's, there's the glamour of like you just had this beautiful documentary come out. We're going to talk about that. But you know, this glamour of here's the, it's finally

done and everybody's patting on the back because there's those two years where you're sitting in a room, you know, you're not out in the sun. You're, you're working on your thing. I mean, I'm, you know, involved in a number of docs now. And to me, the fun of it is being able to keep finding the

story because the story is always changing. And even then you go into a doc and you think, okay,

I've got this, I've got the thread. I know the history sort of, the history is always unfolding with every interview you do. Yeah. And so to me, that's, it's fun to have a, through line in my head of what the chronology is or what the narrative, what I think it's going to be. But somebody will always tell you a story you never knew that you go, okay, now we're going over here. Yeah. Yeah. And now we're coming back. And then we're going over here. And this person just said this. And

and it's just fun in my mind to build the narrative before it's even on, you know, in the edit

“bay yet because it's, in my head, I'm editing. So I don't have the patience. That's why I'm amazed”

because I just think it's my specific, herculine effort to take on somebody's story. It's, yeah, it is, but it's, it's fun to find it. I see. You know, it takes trust. It takes trust with you in that subject to, to say, you know, trust me, I've got your back. Yes. I'm going to find the most interesting things to document. And, um, and ultimately, who knows where the story might go, but trust, let's trust the process. Yeah. So let's talk about, of your grandfather.

First thing comes in mind, and it seems so honorable that you wanted to tell his story. I think such a beautiful thing because as somebody is like a bit of a Disney file, you know, his name would come up a lot. And invariably, I kind of went down my own rabbit hole of, of finding out who he was. But this is back pre internet days. It was harder to find information. So with a stray book over here, I think at one point I had a laser disc that was like a collection of

his non Disney work. Yep. Um, was it, was it, am I, is zooming too much as thinking it was deeply

I had grown up hearing about him from my family reading, reading books about him, doing a book report when I was in elementary school about, you know, somebody that isn't, isn't underdogged story that

“you know when it was about. So that was fun for me. And then I think just, just knowing all that went”

on that, I felt like more in the books that I was reading. And the stories I was hearing from the Disney side, I thought, well, there's a whole other story over here that people don't know. And yeah. So to me, that was exciting to, to go back into the family, you know, photos and see all these great photos that he took when he was coming out from Kansas City and the photos called and teenagers. And just, I, I wish that I had known him. I wish that I had been able to interview him.

Well, he's always struck me as an incredible person. And, you know, I think what's cool and, you know,

you've lived differently inside is that that over time, oftentimes, you know, there's always the same, you know, to the victor go the spoils and not that Walt Disney wanted to try and over your grandfather, anybody else. But like Walt became the story. And as you know, Roy Disney's just as big a part of the Disney story as Walt is. But because of without Roy, there'd been no money. You know, all that type of stuff. And obviously your grandfather's artistic and innovative

“abilities is such a huge part of the Disney story. So I think it's cool. But you tell me”

where you're given free reign to tell his story. Because, you know, I'm not saying it's a garage, but there would certainly need to be some correction there in the record. Yeah. Well, I think what happened was I considered making this documentary when I was at USC Film School as one of my projects. And I thought, well, wait, let me do it once I graduate, and let me see if I can get support. I knew I had to get support of the studio. So basically,

I got a meeting with Roy Disney, Roy E. Disney. And he, I said, I really want to do this film. And and he said, well, of course, your grandfather was a major, major part of the, the foundation of the studio. And he's history should be told. And so he went to Michael Eisner at the time. And they said, let's do it. So I think it was Roy's trust in me. And also he, he was a big fan of my grandpa. There's, I mean, he worked with him. And in the process lab, when Roy was filming

the true life adventures, I kids love those by the way. Yeah, they great. And so he would go and take that film to the process lab where my grandfather was, you know, dealing with like all sorts of processing effects, things like that. And, you know, he helped develop the technology that got rid of scratches and film, you know. And, and so a lot of that old scratchy footage, you know, would go through this bath. And ultimately, it would all get cleaned up. And so that's

kind of how Roy really worked with my grandfather. Yeah, that's a relationship. Yeah, that's a huge episode. He said it was always just like there was magic going on in there. If you watch him, he had the mouse, he talks about, you know, the magic of my works. And so that was, that was fun. So Roy was supported this film. He supported me and my endeavor to make it. And then,

but they said, okay, well, you're, you've never done a dock before the first video would give you

a big leap. Yeah. We'll give you, you know, X amount of money for 60 minute dock. Yeah. And I was happy with it. I was not happy because I wanted to make a feature link. And so what happened was they funded the 60 minute. I did it. And they were so impressed by it. They said, well, what did you have in mind for a feature? And I said, well, 30 more minutes would get me more time in Kansas City and their early years and just go deeper into everything that it deserves. And so they gave me the

same amount of money again to extend it by 30 minutes and put it over Academy Award. And so that

“sort of solidified this relationship with the studio who just said me to make a film. But I think”

it was always a delicate balance because up to that point, they hadn't really given the proper

credit. And Roy knew it. Roy even said to me, you know, he said the studio brushed him under the rug for a long time. And, you know, he said on camera without up there would have never been a Mickey. But never had been a Mickey. So that was like gold gold in a way of validating ups contributions that from the studio itself versus outside historians, right? And so Roy was a really big champion of the film and of me. And we, you know, worked on other projects together

after that. And I think today the company has completely, you know, embraced the collaboration

Walt being the visionary storyteller, showman, you know, just everything that Walt was producer, you know,

“just he was the seed that blossomed that everything blossomed from. Sure. And so I think that in”

then Roy being the financial genius. I mean, the three of them together were so, were so strong.

And, um, but Abba always said, you know, anyone can draw a mouse. It's what you do with

it that counts and Walt made Mickey famous. Yeah. You know, and so he was always very deferential self, you know, different, you know, he didn't want a lot of the credit. He didn't care. He was happy to have drawn a mouse animated the mouse, but he always felt like Walt was able to run with that character in a way that he hadn't been able to do it before with Oswald or other, or even Alice, because Alice in cartoon land, because he didn't own those characters.

Yeah. So he knew that he needed to own his own character. So that was great. I was beginning of everything. Yeah. I mean, how kind of put this is somebody pays attention to stuff, maybe too much,

“but I think where people get lost is that Disney has a sort of almost like a cultural phenomenon.”

I don't mean Walt the person. Disney, Disney, the world that's been created. I mean,

without the Mary Blair's and the, you know, the Mr. Girl, and, you know, there's so many brilliant people in this mix. And, and the one thing we do know is Walt must have had a magical ability at whining these people up and sending them off in the directions he did. And it's, it's also in your, in your, the handcrafted film about sort of trusting people to go in different directions and it all sort of kind of arrives at the right point. Right. There's a sense of destiny. Yeah, for sure.

And I think it's beautiful that now with the work that you've done and of course, you know, the restoration in many ways of your, of your grandfather's name and the Disney story. So I guess what I'm trying to say is focusing on who drew a mouse, you know what I mean is, is like let's call it the public's overly simple version of who gets the credit, but if you really look the credits all in plain sight, even the early Disney stuff, it says, you know, grandfather's names on the cartoons.

It's not like he was being shoved out of the picture, but it gets complicated, of course,

“because with any kind of growth and I maybe I'm overpitching you, but you know what I mean?”

But you agree with that kind of general assessment as that sounds sort of reasonably. Yeah, I agree. I think he was a master at, he was a master casting director.

He knew at a cast an amazing staff of people, artists, crafts people, storytellers, writers,

directors, you know, he knew he could see within somebody that they had talents that were undeveloped jet, that he could, he could, he could pull that latent talent out of somebody and say go over here, like Blink Gibson, you know, who was an animator and he became a Disney's top sculptor for all the animatronic figure out he had a figure. So he was really good at all that, you know, but I think at the end of the day it was the Walt Disney Studio and it was one man who, who, who was the leader of

the company and everyone kind of had to kind of get in line behind that, that brand and that made a lot of sense. Or Walt to, I mean, Roy, to basically say it's not, it's not the Disney Brother Studios anymore. It's the Walt Disney Studio. Yeah, because when I was a kid, I was born in 67, we would watch on Sunday at the grandparents house, the wonderful world of color. I had no idea that Walt was dead to us as kids. He was, yeah. He was the guy and we didn't even know he wasn't

alive. Well, it was all reruns. It was all reruns, but we just all we knew was he was on there, you know, introducing David Crockett or whatever. That's all we knew. Yeah. So the cult even of personality and even in recent squabbles with the Disney family about using Walt as an animatronic figure. And you know, it sort of gets into this weird space of like the avatar of Walt versus the real human of Walt versus the innovator of Walt. And then, of course, the business practice is

a Walt. That's a very complicated thing. You've lived in it, but I'm a casual observer. One interesting thing I found in, in poking around in your story is that you're, uh, uh, uh, and your, uh, military, does your grandmother. Yeah. Uh, is, uh, is they met in Los Angeles, is that true? Uh, yeah, in LA. But they got, they got married and you're in, of course, uh, Walt and Lilian,

times people overlook the familial ties and yes, it's business and things go on, but that, I think that's at the root of this relationship that continues with you to the Disney world to the

“days that fair. Yeah. I think, um, they were friends and they would go on, you know,”

trips to Santa Barbara on weekends and, you know, they had a, they had a, they had a friendship in those early years when it was very formative. And I used to hear about these stories. And I have the, um, you know, the beautiful glassware and dishware that Walt and Lilian gave my grandparents for their wedding and, you know, and, um, bring it out on on, on special holidays for special guests. But yeah, I mean, I think those were really wonderful times for everybody, you know, when you

look back in the history of the Disney company before it got overcomplicated to be, to be fair at all of them. I mean, they, there's no way they could have possibly dreamed it was going to turn into what it turned into. Yeah. Well, certainly, we're, we're envisioning the parks yet. That's true. I mean, just Disney is a global brand. Right. Right. I mean, just the, the encourages Disney

into the world culture. It's an incredible lineage story, you know, when you think about, well,

we document it in my imaginary story, you know, so to go from, and I've documented a lot of business stories and, uh, I've interviewed a lot of CEOs and to understand what that, what that chronology over 100 years or so looks like, how you sustain a company over time. It's, it's a real balancing act and it's, you can't take it for granted. Yeah. You know, so many businesses come and go. Millions and millions or millions are over the course of history, but there's really

only, you know, a core few that have sustained a hundred plus years. Do you think that, um, 'cause, you know, there's a lot of criticism of Walt's business, business practices, um, not a ton, but there's enough out there if you talk to the people who don't like the brand or, you know, that they don't like the way Walt dealt with strikes and the 40s or I can't remember what it was. But, um, is there a common thread because you have been involved in these big stories,

whether it's telling the, you know, the Lucas world and, like, is there a common thread? Is it, is, I guess what I'm after is, is the sort of the, the tyrannical or, you know, that the need to be a Machiavellian in the business practices, is that just inevitable for the brand to move on, or is there, is there another way to go about it? Oh, no, I don't think it's Machiavellian at all.

“I think it's actually the opposite. I feel like, um, good leadership is about surrounding”

yourself with a really strong talent and people that you can listen to and trust. And when that goes awry, that's when things fall apart. Oh, okay. You know, and, and it's also, you know,

what I speak to in the Pixar story, which is it's, it's, you can work really hard for your first

success, like they did with Toy Story, but it's the second product syndrome that even Steve Jobs talks about, which is once you get to your second, your second project, your second film, your second computer, that's the real challenge, so that you can, you can have a top-the-first success, you know, you want to, and so with, with, um, a bug's life after Toy Story, they were weirdly worried, they were not going to be a successful as Toy Story, and it would, they called it the second product

syndrome, and yet it was very successful, but it's, it's, once you get to that point,

“you have to sustain it, like it's one thing to create Mickey Mouse, but it's, you have to sustain”

that momentum and you have to build on it and you have to write it to think that Walt was able to do that with a, with a character based on circles and a squeaky little voice, this little effort

of us in character that became a global icon is, is incredible, you know, a hundred years later.

Yeah, um, even with a special exemption from Congress at 1.8. Right, I mean nearly a hundred, it will be 128, but we're 2027, so anyway, um, I think that it's, it's incredible that the Disney companies, speaking of just the Disney company that it can sustain a character and continue to branch it, and then, and tell stories with it and, and build characters around it, and, um, why this little mouse, which was, I think,

infused with Walt's spirit, and originally, my grandfather's Zany personality and his wild sense of animation, and just fun, making things up as they went, um, to me that was the origin story of the Mickey we know and love. Yeah. And, um, even though he's a little wiring crazy, which I love that mouse, I love that, those early cartoons, and we love Mickey today, he's an every man, and when the 1930s, he, he hit a, he struck a nerve because of the depression,

and, and, and sell it to people far and wide, and then it became a global sensation, so that, to me, is part of that second product syndrome, is to be able to, it's one thing to create success,

“but it's, your first product, but you have to sustain it, and that's the true measure of success.”

You, you might know this, uh, I feel like I know it, but there's that, there's a moment where, you know, they start, Mickey becomes like a merch phenomenon, and some man wrote Walt's letter, and said, I think I can do your merchandise better, you know, that story, said, out, if you can be 50% of the business, I'll do it. Yeah, the Mickey Mouse watches and, yeah,

amazing. Yeah. Um, I don't want to skip over Oswald because I wanted to tell you a little story,

so I was in the park one time, and they had Oswald shirts, which I thought was cool. Yeah. And I, and I showed my, my son, the shirt, and he said, what that, and I said, this is, this is the character that I, I, works did before Mickey, and so my son loves Oswald now. He, he identified with the story that there was this character before Mickey, so he's got his Oswald shirt. Slung ears. I mean, really Mickey, he, he is Oswald's sort of around her ears. Oh, no, I got, I got that,

but I, I, I love telling my son the story because I love that there's this, that's called the true story of the, of the story. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, can you, can you, can you, at least give us a little thumbnail sketch because in this early stage that Walt and have this

relationship, I looked up both their birth dates, they've worn in the same year, which that was

interesting. So, you know, that one, one of obviously was older than the other, but, but, you know, it strikes me the two men set off in this crazy American journey. They leave their home. They come out here, and obviously out here in 19, whatever, 19, 19, or something. It was like, uh, it was pretty dusty out here at that point. Well, Walt came out in 1923. Okay. And, uh, came out in 1924.

“See, you got the facts because, yeah, that's why you have D23, because it's 1923.”

Oh, oh, it's because 1919 is when they met. That's right. And confused. Yeah. So even then, they met when they were 18, 18. Even when they were thinking about, they were 18 years old when they met, like, who knows what the hell they're going to do. Right. 18. Right. I mean, even if you have an idea, you don't know what the hell you're doing. Yeah. They were 27 or 28 when Mickey was created. Yeah. So, can you at least give us, uh, some light onto their, like, their personal relationship

where they, or because at some point, your, your grandfather leaves the Disney world. He comes back. But, but there's that period where he leaves. And there's some sense and you tell me, you know, of feeling overlooked or not appreciated or did they, did they, did they consider themselves as equals or did your grandfather see Walt as he's the guy and I got to kind of figure that out. Like, because, you know, many times in, in business relationships and in the arts,

there's the person just like, I'm cool because I'm that I'm the one who's actually going to do the work and you go do all that other stuff. You know, you go be the face and wave, but I'll be back here figuring out how to do the next animation process or something. Was it understood,

“did their relationship or was this something that evolved? Well, I think they had this great”

relationship, um, all the way through through their lives. Um, and I think that as anybody changes and wants to improve their own selves or strike out on their own and try to do their own thing, um, just like Walt did. I mean, I think that I think it's a complicated relationship and I can't speak for either one of them, obviously, but all I can know is what I've read and what I've read about in interviews and things like that from, from up and wall and also from my

grandparents and, or my family stories, but, but I think that the respect was always there. Well,

always respected, uh, but I think that there came a time, speaking of post Mickey's success, that overnight sensation, even though it wasn't an overnight sensation, it was third film in, but they had been working towards this moment for the last, since 19 for the last, almost decade, right, to try to get to the success of Mickey Mouse, um, through several other series, and that experimentation era was formative for both of them. They were in a very significant

partnership, um, but I think when Mickey became successful, Walt felt the strain in the stress of pushing that character out there and at a speed in which, and, and, and quality or not quality, whatever it was that, that rattle, uh, to the point where he was considered the top animator of his day. He was considered by many in the, the top people in the industry and the animation in the early animation industry that he was considered the guy that without Walt Disney would be nothing,

and that was, um, and I think Walt had a strong ego. I think Walt, probably in those days, had, you know, just figuring himself out, like they all were. They were in their late 20s.

I see, you think you're in your late 20s. You have this overnight sensation. Now, what do you do with it? How do you hang on to the reins? And how do you define your own

“self? And so, I think at that point, you know, Walt started taking more of the credit for Mickey,”

and based on what I've read, and that it rattled, uh, that he wasn't feeling as appreciated. And, um, got an offer with him, GM, to, to form his own animation studio, which was, in GM's very first animation studio. So, if you were him and not knowing the future of Mickey Mouse, you might also want to take your own path and say, "Hey, I want to be with you." 'Cause you left around 1930. He left in 1930, uh, and, you know, so, for better words,

you know. But it makes sense, it's just amazing. It makes sense to me, from a, a lot of people did.

A lot of, a lot of other animators left, and they wanted to do their own thing. I mean, that industry at that point was just, like, everything was going on. Everyone was clamoring to get the top artists, and studios were trying to film their own companies, so their own divisions of animation, and, um, and that led to, you know, a lot of, uh, early animators, like, check-chones, forming, you know, the looney tunes of interest, and Warner Brothers. So, people were,

were all over trying to kind of create their own brand, as was Walt. And Walt was fortunate that he had Roy, and that was a big differential, because I didn't have a Roy, and, and he, he had a guy, but he wasn't, you know, a Roy. And so I think a lot of people's, I think Roy is the unsung hero when you really think about the Disney company, because Walt, you know, was an amazing visionary, and knew what to do. But I think without that financial bedrock, and, and somebody who

can sort of say, let's go this direction, let's make it happen. That's, that's hard to do as an artist. Yeah. And I think a lot of artists, when they don't have that business side to them, they don't go as far. Yes, I've, I've seen the road littered with many who, who are broke now, because they didn't make good deals. Um, uh, I did see on a podcast you were on, because I did

“a little research where, where somebody floated out the idea, you should do a dock on Roy Disney”

and the building of Disney World. I think that would be fascinating, because even the compromise of Edcott, Edcott is kind of a fascinating thing. It's the upcott that exists is not very much like what Walt had laid out. I think it's hard. I think Edcott was a grand vision. I think it was harder. Now it's, so it's a, to really pull off at that point. It's a 20-periodest. Right. But, you know, I think it was an amazing vision. I think it was, I wish, I wish it got built. I think

that was kind of cool. When you, you know, there's a program he lays out, whatever he wants that cup to be before he

passes away. Right. And we never really got there. It was a cool concept. Yeah. Um, this is a side

question, but because you've, because you've, you've been to these corridors, the power dealing with these grand-documentaries. Um, are you, is, is, is, at least I've found with filmmakers, uh, they tend to have, uh, there's a personal thing that they connect with is, is, is, is, is how power is applied something that's interesting to you? Does that, is that, is that? This how power is applied? Yeah, how power is applied, you know, because, uh, whether it's DC or the Warner Brothers, you know,

I mean, it's a story. Ultimately, is like, how do you apply your power? Who do you sign? What movies do you make? What movies don't you make? The, the, the, the, the, the, the politics within the

“company uses. Is that something that's fascinating to you? Well, very much so I think I'm interested”

in the convergence between creativity, technology and innovation. And with that comes, that's the family brand, obviously. And I think that power is, is, is a word that, you know, it's a loaded word. It's a word as an ego, is it, is it, is it wealth, is it ability to, make decisions that, that a lot of people can't, um, is it control, you know, so what is power? Yeah, the reason I ask is, and this is a personal reflection, but, you know, I was put in an

interesting position in my life because I had talent at writing songs, but I also had a good business sense. So from the very beginning, I had to sort of kind of run the world at some point you come into odds with your partners, because they don't agree with the, with the way you're making the decisions, but they're also not personally invested in dealing with the day-to-day business.

So there's always this weird tension that exists in my world between, let's call it the business

drive, the artistic drive, and where they merge, and where they, where they don't converge. So, you know, obviously this is a huge part of your family story. Your grandfather leaving Disney going off on his own ultimately coming back. Um, I'm curious, uh, did they have some personal relationship

of made peace? Was it, you know, I don't know for sure. I think that they probably,

had were in the same circles and events and things like that. Um, and I think it was, you know, probably more apart because Walt had now replaced, uh, with a handful of other animators. It didn't have a whole staff of people to replace one guy. Somebody could spin that as a, as a, as a, as a, as a bit, or, you know, you didn't work and now you had to come back to me. Another person could see does like what they had this really beautiful relationship.

They rekindled their artistic partnership. And part of the story that I read was, and I kind of know what curse, cursory in a cursory way, is that, um, your grandfather said, look, I really more interested in the technical innovation side of this equation. Right. And he goes on and becomes a significant contributor to the success of Disney from 1940 on. Right. So I think that's a

“cool story. But it's, again, it's how those stories play within the family. That's what fascinates.”

We might seem a strange tact. But yeah, I know. I think he was excited to go to go back. I think

he got burnout on animation. And I think that he, um, was always this genius and, you know,

innovator. And I think he really enjoyed solving problems. And I think he enjoyed creating and, yeah, you know, and, and he and Walt, uh, had a very strong relationship for the rest of their lives. And, and, you know, there's many stories of them just talking in the hallway and coming up with ideas and Walt's saying, you know, that amazing, you know, I, I was caught like thinking, and yeah, like when Walt had an idea, I would be there to figure it out.

And when, uh, came up with something Walt would figure out a use for it. Yeah. And so I think that's a gift, too, that that Roy and Walt had their dynamic and then Walt had the up dynamic. Um, but, you know, Walt had a lot of people that were amazing collaborator throughout his life. No, it wasn't just, uh, they just have to be early on. But, you know, yeah, overall, it was a big contributor to, um, the Disney films and the Disney parks and

motivations and the cost savings and, uh, so awards. In your, in your understanding of the story,

when does the first sort of like, he really, because there's a quote in, in the, in the Disney

“handcraft, the Disneyland handcrafted where, I think it's Diane Disney, she's talking and she's saying,”

you know, my whole childhood, my father was talking about this idea of a theme park. But is there a sort of an official year where it's like it becomes a possible reality? Well, I think in the early 50s, when he started experimenting with, you know, the idea of a, a music park across the street. Yeah. And, um, in, did he get turned down? Was that part of the story? I think, yeah. But it also was too small, you know, proved itself too small. So, again,

you know, it was, he needed a larger, larger space. So, you know, they searched all over and and became the space. So, um, because I, I looked up, because to see your, your grandfather's involvement in, in Disneyland and your father's involvement in Disneyland and, and most of the things that are cited are sort of on the later side of the equation. So, but obviously the film deals with the, the Genesis at Disneyland and the frantic one year build that goes on and this really beautifully

done. Um, but is there a personal sort of story from the family side of like, you know,

“did your grandfather think he was crazy? You know what I mean? Like, um, no, I think he thought”

this is exciting and, and he was there to figure it out. I think there was a story about how they meant in the hallway and, and Walt, this was eight, I mean almost eight months prior to the park opening, apparently, or right around there. And he said, there's a, you know, that was during the time when you had the widescreen format in films and best division whatnot. Yeah. And Walt said, I'd love to come up with something that was 360, like, so we could just do that and see it all

around us and he said, do you think you could figure that out? We could do it for tomorrow lamp by the time it opens. That was eight months away. And this is a totally unproven, uninvented, non-invented project. And so he, he said, give me a couple of days, came back and to Walt and said, I think I, I've got to, would do it. So we figured out the Circa Ramma camera system and then, not only invented an entire camera system, but a projection system and they went out and made the

film all within eight months. Yeah. And that was the beginning of Circa Ramma and Civil Vision. Yeah. One other thing that's worth asking is, I think, you know, is your father being so young at this juncture of this, the park coming together, was he around the park when he was a kid? I, like, before it opened to, you know. No, he was, um, he was on 20,000 leagues under the sea. Okay. He was in the bomb as for three months

and then came back and was in the camera department. And so he was working on all sorts of camera

tour of the west as part of that camera group. Okay. Um, so he was traveling for that film across the country. Yeah. Okay. Um, so talk a bit about Disney, a Disneyland handcrafted because, um,

“I saw where you were talking about the decision that you made if you want to explore that. It's,”

you know, they had all this archival footage that most of had never been seen of them making the park.

And, um, and a lot of it had never been really transferred well so you got, like, high grade transfers and so footage that never been seen in color, but it only been sent out of the Disneyland TV show and stuff like that. But the decision that you made to really make it sort of an immersive experience about the park building. And you didn't do the classic just talking head and even your resistance using still photos and stuff. You talked about that. Yeah. So when we were doing the imaginary

story, we came upon this footage and, um, well, it was in the archives and we had it transferred brought to or, you know, converted to us and just going through it. It was so cool to see all

this, these details of the working and, and Mo and Marc, my collaborators, most of the Marc

Catalina said, well, what if we did something that's just archival? Um, and we can, like, just sit in it and, and I, I thought, well, that's really cool. Do we have enough material to sustain a narrative story? And, um, we did a proof of concept seven minutes or so and he had a sound effects and it was really neat because we added these scenes, you know, like the, the reels that were there were all over the map, meaning like you would have a shot from February 1954 in one shot on the same

reel and then the next shot would be like something from later that year in a totally different part of the land. And so it was all sporadic and so we had to literally cut up each reel and put it in bins and chronology and time and, and figure out, okay, here's the Marc Twain scene of them pulling the Marc Twain, but it's across, you know, 20 different reels. So we had to, like, really forensically go through each saying and, and organize it. And then once you've found that

Marc Twain now has 30 different angles and shots of the same thing. And then you could cut it. Now we can build a scene and so that was the magic of what Mo did was to be able to find it source it, put it together, organize it. And then we got the support of our brain, what I called our brain trust, which is, you know, Tom Morris and Don Hahn and Tim O'Day and, and Tony backster and Pete, Dr. Genesis Rivera, Becky Klein from the archives and we ended up, we and they

ended up supporting our effort to figure out what was what, you know, where was this, where was that and Tony and Tom especially really know the Disney history? So they were able to just go that shot is actually out of sequence or it's out of time, it's earlier, you know. And so that was a really great support for our for us who we had a really good handle on it because we had slates a lot of times to know what year these, these shots were done, but there was a lot of stuff that wasn't slated.

“And so you have to figure out, okay, when was it and you'd have to look in the background and say,”

okay, well, what status, what's the status of the castle? Castle, this is kind of a marketing point for us because if it was, you know, really, you know, undeveloped, then we knew it was earlier in the year, you know. So we used certain market markers in the background as ways to, to, you know, know where things were. Was there, um, is was the intention for shooting the building of Disneyland fitted strictly for the Disneyland TV show or was it there was some other reason, or was it like,

we should cover this, or because it seems a little scatter shot. Yeah, it was for everything I, remember thing I know, it was from the, for the TV show. But I'm sure Walt wanted to documentation just for other things down the road and just to have it, um, but they didn't use so much of this

“footage, you know, for other things. Yeah. And, um, and I think it just, you know, and Tony Baxter”

really had kind of, um, discovered this footage 20 years ago in the film archives, um, with some of the staff there at home and Scott McQueen, others people like that that, that knew about it,

but there was never any, you know, use for it, or people weren't aware of it, or, you know,

what have you. I think Tony put it out on the internet, but it was just this low-res file. And what we were able to do was get it all transferred at the highest resolution and then look at each shot

out of time, but then also intercutting it with the TV show so that you could see that there was this public figure of Walt Disney promoting this park at the same time, the stress on the ground and the dirt was insane. And so it was that dichotomy of like, hey, everybody, we're putting

on a show and then the reality is everyone's sweating it at the park. Yeah. And that's, that's kind

of the dichotomy that we wanted to, well, there's that moment and early in the dock where it's,

“it's just dirt. Yeah. And I think you put like one year before the open. Ten months. Yeah. Something”

like that, ten months, and you just go, that's insane. Yeah. Like it's truly insane. It is, especially, from today's perspective, but even back then it was insane. Yeah, so yeah, very, I mean, especially with today's building codes and anything. Yeah, yeah, it was around. But it's a total impossibility in today's world. Yeah. But even just setting that aside, just the idea of building anything in 10 months from the dirt to an opening. Yeah. It's, it's,

it's, it can be your bathroom now or exactly. It's just striking when you see it visually. So yeah. I think it's a beautiful visual representation of just the madness of the whole. Right. It was madness really. Also, keep talking a little bit about because the footage was all silent and your decision to sort of create a, and what's struck me, and maybe you don't make this connection, is, you know, your grandfather was so intimately involved with the silly symphony and the idea of merging music

and sound. And here you are, all these years later, taking this silent footage. And basically, building a, not just a musical soundtrack, but a soundtrack of special effects, that sounded. But, you know, steam hammers and to create the virtual immersion into the building of this thing.

Mm-hmm. Well, I never really put that together. When we said it, it kind of struck me because I thought

that's really interesting, right? Well, they did steam boat Willie, which was the first sound.

“That's what I'm saying. I thought, that's, that's kind of funny. Yeah, that they figured out how to”

do sound to film, to animate a film. But this was, um, all credit goes to Bonnie Wilde at Skywalker, you know, and the folks there, the, the fully team and everything. I mean, I always knew that Skywalker was the, the place to go to do this and I worked with them before. Yeah. But, you know, taking an entire 70-plus minute cut that's completely overall silent film and putting every single sound effect to every single thing you see, um, a tripod getting put down on a platform or a

people walking or shoveling or cement getting plopped onto the ground. I mean, all that was just handcrafted. Wow. And it was, it seemed was because I only know after I watched the doctor, they were silent. Yeah, and it was funny. And at no point did I think it didn't feel strange. Right. And it was very laboriously done, painstakingly done by Bonnie. I mean, she really went to town.

And remember the first time she showed it to me when I went up there, she goes, I'm kind of nervous.

You know, I hope you like it. She was so demir about it. Like, you know, and I thought, are you kidding? I'm going to love it. And I was blown away when I saw it. And I thought, how in the world did she do this? You know, and it's, it is like an animated film in a way that, you know, what she works on Pixar movies. So she, an animated film. So she, oh, I see, knows, I live in that. You know, it's the same. I'm fascinated with Disney Miranda's sort of a kind

of a sociological experiment this idea that he has this dream. He builds this theme park. And of course, it's turned into a very robust business with universal and, you know, theme parks all over the world now and putting Disney parks. But this idea that it becomes this almost like, I read somewhere where many people don't understand about Walt's vision for Disney land was he wanted you to be in the movie. I saw where an imaginary or talked about that. So I'm just

curious for your thoughts as somebody who kind of grew up, you know, around the Disney world. But also the park, you know, this, this idea of Disney land is this kind of magical place. You know, it's like a, I don't know, it's like a place of transformation or something. But

“I know not everybody sees it that way. But that's where I see it. Yeah. It's, I think the goal is to”

leave for Walt anyway. It was to leave your worries at the gate. Yeah. Come on in and enjoy a whole new world of different lands and different realms that you could experience and be inspired by and learn and learn from and enjoy the characters that you've seen in the TV, I mean, in the animated films and the TV shows, actually, that you could meet them and you could get a photo with them and it's this walkthrough experience that you can walk through the castle and you can

live in these worlds. And it was the first immersive theme park I think by far, I mean, I compared to what came from. Yeah. The Kony Islands and the, you know, I mean, even not very far

knots was in, in a sense, a theme park too. But it, it wasn't based on IP that was known around

“the world, right? Yeah. So I think what I've always found fascinating is this idea of vertical integration”

from a business model standpoint that Walt did. It was taking this IP and then now he can put it into the parks and now people can experience that IP in a completely different way. Yeah. And I don't like the word IP, but these characters, these both characters and stories that people can experience and and live and breathe and that is a whole another way of of living and breathing the stories. Yeah. And, and that has that in and of itself was a brilliant business model that hadn't been

done before and now lives on all these years, leaving around the world. And now the Imagineers at Disney are completely taking all this, all these brands, all these stories and all these characters

that we've loved for decades and now pushing the envelope with the technology and always trying,

you know, be ahead of the technology so that we can experience them in even greater ways.

“Since since you've made the documentary, do you look at Disney Land differently now?”

I mean, when you go there, you know, it's funny. You see it differently? I do actually. I do. I think I was in a thick of this project when I was down there for the 70th anniversary party and I just remember looking at the main street and going, "Look at which brick was that?" And, you know, this it looks so similar to what it hasn't changed and I think that nostalgia and that I think for fans, they they love the fact that so much of this

is still there. It hasn't been torn down or re-done or whatever. It's Walt's Disneyland is still

intact and hopefully it always will be that his castle, his main street, the things that he loved,

his rivers of America will always be there because this was Walt's DNA. Yeah, I can't ever, is it the word "curfuffle"? Is that the right word, you know, that word "curfuffle"? You know, there's a "curfuffle" going on right now because they've decided to change Disney world. They've taken out the river and they're putting in a new car as a traction. I guess the question I'm after is something along the lines of like,

do you think that the evolution of the park is in necessity? It's inevitable that the original vision should be left intact. I'm more of a purist so I like that the park, I like as much of Walt's vision intact as possible. Yeah, it's a tricky one and I know the missionaries, you know, have that at the top of their minds all the time with every major future they do and I know this one was not taken lightly and I know that it's very controversial and a lot of people are upset about it

and a lot of people are like, okay, this is what Walt would have done to. There's a certain area

of the parks that weren't working well. He would change him out, you know, and he always did and he

always, the DNA, the blueprint of Disneyland is that it will never stop changing as long as imagination is less normal. I guess we say even in the, like, is it good to stop? Yeah. I think it may be even in the opening of speech or something. You said something about it. It's always been always going to change. So that in and of itself is a brilliant thing to say because people can't argue with them that future generations are going to take, take something out and then change it because he's built

that into the Constitution of Disneyland, you know, and so that is what I think gives the latitude for many changes throughout the world and it's just the way it is. You know, I mean, he changed out tomorrow land, you know, while he was still alive and there's a lot of things that went away after that first opening day in the next five, ten years. He was changing things out, tearing stuff out, I'm sure people are upset then, too. Yeah. If you can step aside from your

your family connection, do you think credit in a story like this is important or do you think at the end of the day? It's really just about that happened. Does that make sense? I know it's a weird way to ask the question. Well, what happened? Well, like, is it as simple as people should know who drew Mickey Mouse or who designed this or, you know, because you've also told the Imagine Year's Stories, is it important that we know who was in the band, making the song,

“I think so? Where most people focus on the lead singer, you mean? I think it's important to always”

get credit, what credit is to do. Yeah. And I think that is something I feel the Disney company is doing more and more now. But I think that that's important because it's not just one person. There

this thing that happened after Walt died where they, you know, they would have meetings and they would be literally sitting there saying what would Walt do? Right. And the kind of company went to this rudderless form for a while. Right. And I think that gets to the heart of why there's even a kerfuffle over the removing of the rivers of America. That Disney world

“because it's like it gets in the idea of like, well, now are you a racing wall from the parks? So that's why,”

I guess I'm asking the credit question more in the broader question of like, is it are the people who built it, does there say still matter or is it understood that it's an evolving thing because

it's ultimately a business thing? Well, I mean, the people that built it are no longer around.

So they wouldn't have anything to say, but I'm sure that they would, I don't know, I can't speak for other people. Again, it's a controversial move that wasn't taken lightly and I think that yeah, I'm not asking in a way in the country as just you know, I'm not interested in that. It's really not that premise of my show. Right. It's more the idea of I guess because you know, like I like I told you, I think it's talked a little bit before we started rolling cameras. It's like

I found myself being fascinated with Disney. Disney was born, well, I should say the other way around. I was born about a mile away from where Walt was born. And Walt's timing as youth in Chicago was not very well known and it's mostly about when he moved to Kansas and all that. But you know,

I always found Disney fascinating. I went to Disneyland the first time in 1974 and he's always been

kind of this kind of, I guess, I guess the most modern comparison would be like an Elon Musk figure. Where it's like, even if you don't agree with them, they become a visionary or maybe visionary figure. I always as an artist resonated with Walt as a visionary figure, even though I didn't love everything Walt touched. I'm not one of those. It's more of like the idea that you can execute a dream into vision. Yeah, I would never compare Walt as an Elon Musk in any way as far as like I think

I would compare Walt to Steve Jobs. Okay. Because of just more of that positive ideals and how you can change the world in a good way. And and I think what Walt Walt envisioned was that the world could be a happier place and that he wanted to create happiness and that he can improve humanity through all the things that he did and he did and I think Steve Jobs did as well. Okay. And so, you know, I think his idea of for everything visionary, you know,

everything that he did to me, when you look back on and you think what CEO in history has created more happiness than Walt Disney. I mean, you answer that. I don't know.

“He wins, I think. Yeah. That's what I'm saying for me as an artist, I see him as a visionary figure.”

And then I want to study the things he had a hand in because I want to understand how you execute that dream into reality. Because ultimately, if you're an artist, you have to navigate

some of these ideas of what successes, some of these ideas financing is, you know, there's always

this uneasy relationship between artists and kings, you know. Right. And then you're in your own family story with your grandfather, you know, he was part of the origination of this incredible dream. Left came back and then, you know, had a significant contribution. So, you know, part of that is, is, you know, that that relationship between, and that's why I ask about credit is like, is it important that people know your grandfather's name, including any of your father's name,

because they're part of this story, or is it ultimately just about if people are happy and I know it's a bit of a dreamy question. I think it's both. I mean, I think, you know, when you were at the company, you're part of a whole tribe of people who are doing this or a line to create the thing that is what Disney is, which is to create happiness and create into innovate and to to come out with new stories. And so you are part of a global entertainment company and you are

important in that world. But, and there are a lot of people that get more credit than others,

“but the reality is that it is, I think it's important for both. I think it's important for,”

I have to get credit. I think it's important for a lot of people that pick started to get credit and you know, I think it's my own personal fascination. I apologize. I'm not trying to put anything on you. No, I think it's important to get credit. And I also think it's important that it's also you are part of a group, your team. That's the team effort. That's why I said, I'm the nerd who, when I first started seeing your grandfather's name and a lot of Disney stuff, I thought,

let's call it cursory knowledge, but learn about, you know, his contribution, then I started to

realize there's this whole family and some people around. Well, that um, you know, it happens a lot with rock and roll, you know, what do they say success has many masters in failure has but one. So last thing I want to ask you is because, you know, growing up in Chicago, a place like

“Disneyland, a place like the Disney Studios, it's like, it is magical and I believe it's magical,”

but it's also the idea, like, wow, what it must have been like to be a kid wandering around,

you know, in the Disney studio, but you have those experiences you were actually on movie sets and you saw things happening. And so if you could just talk about it, it's just to me it's fascinating.

“Yeah, I think whatever you have a world that you're, you know, allowed to immerse yourself into,”

that was, that was a wake up for me is to the behind the scenes of how things are done and

and it was, that was the magic for me was being behind the scenes and then going to the park behind the scenes, going to the studio, a lot behind the scenes and and just kind of having that that perspective was a thing important for me in my genesis of filmmaker and going to film school and wanting to do that and my dad was very much a teacher for me. He wanted to teach me about cameras and show me how cameras worked and he was an inventor and he was developing, you know,

large format camera systems and all sorts of different things and so I would sit over his shoulder and say tell me what you're up to and I'd look at his CAD drawings and he'd explain it in great detail and I would be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But yeah, I mean he inspired me in many ways artistically and creatively and really encouraged that.

“So the last thing I want to ask you is what's your dream project? Do you have a dream project?”

Oh, I wish I could tell you. Okay, they don't tell me. I have several that I'm working on now. Well, and when they're ready to be announced. All right, fantastic, but I wish you let it look. Thank you, bless you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.