Ep. 854: Dogs That Hunt Humans

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that's f_i_r_s_t_l_i_t_e_ dot com join today by Doug roller who's who was the chief

trainer for l_a_p_d_ loss angels police departments canine unit Doug spend his career

“working with this big important point apprehension dogs many dogs it catch people so”

in the dog world you got detection dogs guns drugs whatever you got track and dogs which could be used as like rescue dogs to track people lost out in the woods but his career is in using dogs to apri hand folks

uh... he was a handler for seven years then spent seventeen years as the head trainer working with apprehension dogs i met Doug called months ago i was at uh... i was with a friend of mine shane yates has been on the show before

i was hanging out in a setting very similar to this on a couple of couches in a living room and dug was kind of blowing my mind with this whole world of dog use and dog training that i was unfamiliar with

so we're going to kind of recreate very detailed in depth use of dogs and kind of the kind of blows your mind forget into the police work which is fascinating man in the in the dot in the training and all that

on top of your background a little bit i did what we didn't talk about this when i met you right but but krin was telling me that that you got one of your initial introduction to talk to work in with sorry that one of your introductions not even to dogs when i say it

you were uh... in the balcony police work out yeah yeah i guess in training or whatever yeah that's come up before when i thought to people like you know they'll say like you know what drew you i don't know you know you're raised and uh... i was raised in a family that was very loved animals and the outdoors and all that did a lot of camping

and i don't even know how it happened but i i guess i had parents also that you know did the right thing and allowed me to go directions that they saw but that maybe was not instinctual but just i gravitated toward that

and uh... i remember getting my first

falcon was a little tiny falcon that i bought at the pet shop they bought for me it's a little from india small as falcon in the world my head was like a pet and it had a bank on me because i didn't take care of it properly but then i started reading i got into all the books and i was very young at the time and then

um... i got into birds of prey and and trapping and the catching and got my falcon was licensed in california and i was a very young age i's probably about thirteen i couldn't even drive yet but because i got so much into it i was on the verge of getting my master falcon his license at a really young age and then the fishing game got hold of me

i don't have that occurred

“i think he just came over to approve my muse and my equipment and he said hey”

we need to rehab uh... rehab birds once in a while that are injured or mistreated whatever birds of prey would you be interested of course i'm a kid oh yeah that'd be great

you know like the group of hawks retails

“um... you know sometimes a prairie falcon in that area”

so that that actually fueled that but then i got very much into it i joined a falcon was club and i got really into falconry and then some of my buddies in high school we all got into it and and i got guys right now that i kind of lost touch with but they're really into it i mean they're they're i left it because i

my life went to another direction i got police work i don't know the dog thing but you weren't you were tuned up on trained up on kind of like mentally trained up on work with and i and i i'm only that it was like being able to utilize an animal in the in the natural environment and hunt prey

there's something really need about that uh... like there's certain there's certain bird you you go hunting with you hunt from the fist uh... you know you you like a gossip you're gonna you're gonna uh... look for jackrabbits or bunnies or whatever and

you gotta have the dog appropriately trained at the king of the

the bird abruptly trained for that but then you also have the falcons which are taught to hunt from the the stoop so you're actually teach them to wait on you there's involved like bird dogs dogs will flush the game

“you're pregnant or you're purry falcon will come up and stoop down and”

take them out then these guys put transmitters on their birds and everything else because some of these stoopes can last go for miles god you want to lose your bird so i got to track them down there he is with the uh... the duck or the grass or whatever

you know a mile away so it's pretty neat stuff though when you really get into it at least for me it was what made you what was your decision process and becoming a cop uh... that's kind of that's interesting too because i had no i had no um...

thought about being a police officer i was selling real estate i was 19 i was making a ton of money i was doing buying and selling uh... foreclosure houses fixing them up uh... probably on my way to making a lot of money you know i had like better properties and all this other stuff and i

had nineteen nineteen twenty years old i had some investors i was working with so one day this buddy of mine says hey once you come in a right along with l_a_p_d_

“and i even lost track of this guy but it was someday i knew at the time”

so he worked south east which is a you know the wats area very busy very violent yeah and of course you i wrote with a sergeant and i got hooked i go this is neat it's like

i mean for me it just was really you know it was a it was a adrenaline rush dangerous

i'm seeing a world that i never was exposed to god i mean i'm

upper middle class you know white boy growing up in southern california here i am in in a really bad area yeah but i liked it so uh... for the heck of it and uh... you bring up so many memories god

i was ready to be my first wife and she just didn't like that but i went ahead through she did not thinks she's gonna be married to a cop but i went in i put in like this caught her by surprise yeah she just wasn't like it we are not going to anything and you know that's another story

but i put in for the application in subtemper and uh... shockingly i was accepted and i was already getting ready to go into class in December which is pretty fast and uh... yeah and the rest is history so and you got right into dogwork

no i didn't uh... the l_a_ p_d_ it's a big department at the time was about sixty five hundred cobs now it's about ten thousand but now they're you're losing guys left and right for all the

nonsense going on um... so they get into i can i unit with l_a_ can i wasn't

there's a division in l_a_ called metro go metro has swat mounted unit uh... m_b_ and c_p_l_tune and then can't can i but when i got on young can i was off doing the wrong thing they weren't in a specialized unit

again so back in the old can i there was when it started like in the late seventies by two guys sergeant moring and the guy named darn your own ill

it blew up i mean a lot of apartments in the in the country had can i's but l_a_ didn't and these guys were like the fathers of arcina unit and they went out and researched a lot of work got the unit going

and they were they were housed out of west of the division and they wanted to be part of air support they did not want to go to metro there was a lot of ego stuff going on but as the unit grew with two like four or five handlers

these guys are getting into shootings like a lot more than s_i_s_ board and some of the other specialized units because they're hunting down arms suspects all the time and it was a lot of violence back there the canine handlers are finding themselves in more shootings it's probably they're getting more shootings back then then any unit in the in the department dot it the part of g_f_k_ says uh you know

and you know there was always the perception like what are they doing here

we're all why are all these shootings occurring okay even back then

“you know these guys much cowboys whatever but i don't think it was that i think it was more”

like you know back in the late eighties um it was a really violent time it was like you know the stats people talk about crime at word is now but back then i mean just as an example there was about one of some of the years there was a 22 2300 homicides in k_n_l_a_l_a_ l_a_ p_d_ alone and now for the whole city and now you're lucky to break a hundred hundred and thirty

so look at the x_b_d_ and two that's the thing about like crimes statistics uh get manipulated so on yeah like people have this perception that it's this perception that nowadays crime is so bad but when you look at like crime trends hundred percent it's really just not it's not they haven't even cops that i've

worked with that are new they can't even believe the numbers all throw out the amount of searches that i did for example you know when can i and it just you don't

“hear about those numbers that's why our dogs were so for for a training word at season”

yeah they were so good at what they did because they had so much action in those days yeah but back to that um so when i put in for the unit for k_n_ i put in for metro two because at the time they're in that crossroads like they're going to

bring you to metro first and then you get selected a k_n_i_ well back then i was the

last group of guys that came in straight from patrol i was working rampart very busy division and then i went straight to k_n_i_ and then things evolved after that where you had to go to metro do about a year in metro and then be able to put it in for k_n_ i'm a swat and now they're called high risk positions where you actually get k_n_i_n_ is a high risk position yeah just like swat you get more money you get hazard pay

you get a take home car because you know it's deserved i guess uh yeah but that's that history of that so you know i did it was a process i got in and i got in pretty young i got in less than five years on the job which is pretty young for that kind of example yeah i mean guys in the other department they might get an after a year or two but in LA it's a lot more competitive the expectations are a lot higher all that stuff good batter and different yeah

let's jump to some definitions here hmm explain to folks what an apprehension dog is okay in that like juxtaposed to uh a detection dog a tracking dog like like explain that specific term well in where i you know my shop my our claim to fame and l_a_p_d_k_ and i now within l_a_p_d_ there are several k_n_ units that are separate from metro k_n_i_ go so you've have metro k_n_in which is the apprehension dog the dogs that actually are are taught to search

find suspects and if needed they'll bite up um L_a_p_d_ still has a policy of find and bark which um not a big fan of and you know i hate to say that but i'm just not a big fan of it as things will be evolved and we can get into that later we gotta come back to bite and bark yeah that's a big deal because that's like be longer know that means they want they want and then it needs to be explained but that being said that's metro and we have done some

tracking in the past we put a lot of time and effort into it um i did a lot of experiment with

the tracking dogs it's very time consuming and it works okay but the problem is we just don't have

the environment for that you know most of our searches the the vast majority are going to be containment like a perimeter search you know we lock down a block two blocks three blocks or a building or a warehouse and then we systematically clear it okay numerous dogs sometimes oh really yeah and then then you have the detection dogs and for most departments that's for most departments because of money and economics they'll have what's called dual purpose dogs that

means these dogs also are apprehension dogs but they'll also find narcotics or firearms or bombs and you know you can't do more more than one odor with one dog and we can talk about that a little bit like I can't have a dog that's trained to find narcotics find bombs really no can't be done shouldn't be done because this is not there's legalities of it you know what's my

“dog really hitting on um that's why so when you see a dog if you're in the airport and it just”

happens be there's a dog day there's a guy in the airport that dog isn't looking for everything that

called vapor wake dogs now where the dogs are taught to just scan by people as they're walking

“and they'll alert on them for maybe narcotics or maybe bombs depending what he's trained for okay”

but you're never gonna know and you know it's it's funny because back in the 90s early 90s before

vapor wake was ever termed we were already experimenting with that with what with dogs that we're taught to go ahead and detect odor by following somebody okay like an action instead of just pinpointing odor at a specific location they were taught to find and follow so a guy would be in the crowd walking I'll send a dog would alert show a body a change of behavior and start following that person and then you could have time to go ahead and do what you're gonna do

man okay we got a lot of balls in here because it's something I want to talk about well we talk before you're talking about the difference you did dog who knows is on the ground right in a dog who knows is in the air bus apprehend so back to you so it's all stuff I

“want to talk about yeah like you got to keep guiding me here so because there's so much”

no there this it's it's I want to talk about this stuff like I first want to just clarify like what you mean by apprehension how it's different than a track and dog right in my world now a tracking dog is an apprehension dog too okay but basically these dogs are trained to find and locate whether it's tracking or air sending to go ahead and find somebody and bite them if necessary or not bite them depending on the circumstances and we can talk about that you know a lot

everybody's got different methods I train a certain method that's a little bit unique not as unique as it used to be because a lot of I think teams are catching on to the when we search in LAPD and a lot of units that I work with now with my business I teach what's called off lead searching okay and we utilize this tool this electric collar here in some of your audience I'm sure it's

familiar with it we always have the trained dogs that's gone in five fifty or whatever they use and

“that's what we use primarily that's what I like but our dogs are taught to primarily air sent”

and find the suspect you know pinpoint the odor change a behavior bark at the odor let us know the guys inside that cupboard or that shit or whatever that's primarily what we do because of our environment there's some guys like out here in Montana they do a lot of tracking they do both and they'll actually hit a track and you know they might be in the track for a half mile or a mile and find the guy in some bushes in a creek side or maybe it tracks to a building

and then they turn into but they do apprehend too yeah so at the end of the track they have a chance to maybe take the guy into custody with no force maybe he takes off runs they send him on him they take him down yeah so there's like a there's like a fundamental difference between I'm gonna give you two scenarios one is a scenario you're in an agricultural rural agricultural area right and you know all that a guy is gotten out of the car like yesterday got out of a car and ran off through the woods

right that's scenario one no one knows where he is now scenario two is he comes into this building right like these are different yep these are different dogs well they'll they'll do both okay it's not a big deal a dog can be taught the track with different commands even like one command might be you have my least you find out where the guy was last seen some guys some guys might even do discrimination where they show up apart you know a jack or something the guy might

elect that's another thing we can get into but generally speaking they'll pick up a track and nose on the ground and they'll go footstep the footstep but they'll also do what's called trail because they're air sending at the same time but they're taught to be get their nose on the ground okay and these dogs are specifically trained like for example if you're going to have a tracking dog his nose needs to be trained on the ground immediately okay in other words if you take

that dog and start teaching them how to air send it's going to be very difficult to get his nose on the ground so that's got to be trained first because the dog's going to go well you know if I'm want to go to eight a half I want to skip everything you know which is air sending but with tracking it's more diligent and the dog's got to learn to put his nose on the ground and follow footsteps

crush vegetation skin raster of falling you know like on a curb or you know it's amazing how a dog

will pick up on this stuff but he's got to be exposed to all these different environments to be a good tracking dog yeah and it's got to be followed up on but like I said if you try to take one of our apprehension dogs that are trained to air send they've been doing it for three or four years going to be very hard to get them to track god because they're not going to want to do it

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on Monday April 13th, 2021 and 26 so you got all day that day but it ends right before midnight gobble gobble there's a thing you explained to me with with the dogs you work with the app rehension dogs is what was the term you used where is kind of almost seems like something from maybe more popular in movies and TV shows and the realities like you show them like a hat like the guy's hat right in the dogs like got it i'll go find them right but you were explaining to me that that

the apprehension dogs you guys train with they're smelling something very different yeah we talked about that remember yeah there's a thing and it's it's true it's a fact it's been studied there's a thing

that when you're in fighter flight you put off a certain odor it's enhanced scent some people call it

fear scent a dog that is had a police dog that has had numerous apprehensions will be seasoned on that odor and it's it's not it's not race-specific it's not it's something that the body goes through you know nor adrenaline, epinephrine all these changes happen in the body when you're a fighter flight

“you know i think i was reminds me as watching a show once on board hunting go and these”

board hunters are out there and they were talking about what they go through during a board hunt in fact i knew a guy uh one of the guys on a unit joe vita used to go board hunting in katolina uh and not these things down on the caves and they'll back in a day can't lean on katolina and he would carry nothing more than a through fifty seven with a little scope on it and going to caves and hunt them out and i guess you can imagine

the adrenaline and the fear at the same time that not only is coming going on in your own body but also is going on in the body of the board because when he's cornered he's in fighter flight too yeah so that's kind of what a suspect does when he's in fighter flight running from the police he puts out that odor and trust me he does because yeah you mentioned to me that this you're like you're dealing with people who this

maybe is the most yeah excited and scared they've ever been and they're like yeah i mean if we talked about it i mean i found guys after and some of them weren't even bit they were just scared excuse the language shouldless yeah and they they they they end up defecating on them self because they're so scared from those of their bit by the dog yeah some guys aren't some guys are very aggressive they're yokeed up they're they're there there's season criminals

they're prisoners you know prisoners and all that and they take it they take anything like a champ but this this is what you want to do with the season dog over a period of time when you're training a new dog you obviously can't they've tried to they can't bottle fearsome okay there's companies that have tried to and i've tested them experimented with them and i'm not

“seeing it so the best you can do this is old school stuff just kind of funny but i remember”

it was a brand new handler and i'm in the unit and it was a guy named john hall had his little dog named liberty um rower we don't use rots anymore but it was his own dog you bred and the dog was still in training and they're messing with me and you know i'm a new guy and it's okay we want you to hide over here and i want you to put this face mask on because he's gonna go for your face he's not gonna go for my face but he want to put that fear in me oh so that when i'm hiding

and we're doing a training scenario the dog will supposedly maybe hit on me and being a little scared hell and it did get to me i'm thinking shit i'm a brand new handler i knew a little bit

into your hiding so just that kind of thing it wasn't gonna happen but he was trying to recreate that yeah but you can't you really can't you you can only do it by funny real bad guys really so if one of one of these every engine dogs it's experienced if i took like sound it sounds it's an outlander scenario but let's say you had someone that just was in a high speed chase crashes a car gets out of the car runs but also you could nap that person and put him in a line

up of a hundred people and the dog walks past the hundred people the dog is gonna go this dude he might it has the odor i'm i'm interested he might but you know lineups are very strange when you're doing that you know you've got to have so much um cooperating evidence usually you know

“it's like uh yeah we you have to be careful on that um relying on a dog for court purposes”

just to discriminate on somebody gets you in a bad place god um not not not not to get too much into the ways but there was a uh a program the sheriffs were using for a while and i'll keep the guy nameless but he was running a bloodhound and he was claiming to do all this stuff dog and you know pick up on a drop of blood a week old he can hit that track he can find that guy three miles away going through the the streets of LA and all this other stuff and i'm like okay wait a minute

that you're you know you're you're making up stories i didn't believe it and i just i'm training would not with him but some observations the department want the department want to be to look into it robber homicide wanted to look into it and um i mean i just said it proved out that and i couldn't do it but what what sealed it was he put a guy in jail based on what he said

“the dog had found this guy he was some kind of rape shooting suspect a male Hispanic guy did”

was already in jail the nac comes out proves that he's innocent he did like five years got a big lawsuit out of it and that hurt that program big time because they based everything was like using the dogs just the dog sense reduction without any cooperating evidence the dog nailed them and it caused them a lot of problems got let me let me ask the same let me ask the question in a different way picture that you have that same scenario the guy is in a high speed car chase

bam crashes car gets out of his car runs all around enters a house the house is full of other people okay there's there's of whole apart rebuilding okay whatever there's full of other people

you guys are all there cops are there what is the dog why doesn't the dog just run up to the first

person in the house and be like here he is like I don't well what would we do on that because we've had

“that good many of those where we call any runs into a friendly yeah or sometimes he just runs into”

a pilgrims house like a non-suspect totally innocent citizen yeah I can talk talk all day about some of the crazy stuff we've had you know we've had guys run into a house we know he's in that we're banging a door like some time has gone by and we say hey is everything okay here and the the it's like a movie right the lady looks at you and goes yeah everything's fine everything's fine and I'm like oh oh yeah didn't people listening you're not she's doing like

we got right behind the corn with a gun on her and she was trying to say we're good because he's gonna kill her yeah he was he was guys this guy's wanted for murder so he's got nothing to lose

and we ended up catching him but we basically picked up on our eye movement like okay she's

scared shitless right now yeah the guys right there and we ended up we ended up trying to nail the house down and this guy builds out of a window crawls up into a crawlspace he hides and we have to gas them out and yeah we have to actually actually we have to actually have to use a hot gas because we what he did was he was ready for the gas he put a bunch of clothing on his face he was taken like a champ and hot gas is really hard to defeat it's like nasty you got to be careful

because you'll could burn down a house with the sweat guys finally did was they kept punching it in different parts of the ceiling and he had corralled himself into an area where he wasn't getting hit

and then finally they put the hot gas right where he was hiding and then he screamed out

I'm coming out yeah so that's just not the story but but yeah um you got to be careful about discriminating like that and usually you want to be safe and have cooperating evidence and all that to you're gonna put someone in jail take his freedom away you got to be right no but I mean what I'm trying to get at is what how does the dog know that he's found the one he's supposed to find well that's a good point I mean after you have when you put a dog

in training obviously he's just finding decoys and that's a really good question at least in a lot of good training right when you're exposing a new dog first you you get your police dog

basic obedience and then these dogs have the aptitude to do what we're gonna do and we could talk

all day on that but we once that dog um before he hits a street he's these the working what's called the search team environment so you might and with us we have a point guard who's married up to the handler and we have a rear guard two or three people behind us and those folks play a really important part in the search that's your backup the point guard usually carries uh you know either a tube or a binelli or an AR and he's married up right to the shoulder of the handler

okay so the dog has to get used to all this he's got to get used to the team and some dogs aren't you get him new some of these dogs are they're edgy the rate of just you know by anything and

everything and you've got to socialize them and and make them right not all but you've got to

“train them appropriately so they're safe to search with so you have to teach them how to work within”

that search team cell environment and you do that outside the search you might just do a lot of ballwork and playing an obedience with the team around you understand so the dog understands and low drive when he's calm and cool this these are the guys I'm working with yeah you don't want to introduce that environment when the dogs at this level it's like trying to teach a human how to do things when he's in a gunfight yeah the gunfight teaching starts way before the gunfight

right yeah you have to teach him how to shooting platform how to operate the gun calm and cool and collected slow fire single fire all that stuff same thing with the dog most the learning's going to be done in a in a low drive environments the dog can learn and then you start escalating and you bring in a myriad of other things sort of dog can chain all those different environments

“and situations and be able to perform at a high you know at a high drive level you still listen”

and these dogs are tied to a person yes for us and for the most part I did a lot of military training not as much as I used to I had a big contract with the Marines for a while doing all their putting all their dogs on the e-colour and you know God bless them the the way that not the specializing it's not the SF guys or the Delta guys because those guys are married to a dog for maybe a life of the dog just seven eight years maybe but your basic military guy

he might just be working at dog for one or two years and the dog's going to go to somebody else I see and the dog is kennel that home in in their kennel I mean in the the the camp kennel so they they go home every night they come to the kennel and pick up their dog which really isn't that that good of a thing because the bonding you're lacking the bonding you know with a police dog and agencies they take that dog home and that dog is their dog

the dog learns that that's the guy that's is master the dog stays with them all the time stays at home and is kennel all that stuff so that the bonding is a little bit better that way you know and I think the handler gets to know that dog intimately you know God sometimes

it's a good thing sometimes it's a bad thing because what we always battle we talked about earlier even

with a police officer is trained in canine is a end up treating that dog like a pet and you can't do that and we have more problems with that you know and I'm speaking of the choir people are probably going to listen to this podcast go yep yeah that's true you know you can tell the guy over and over again he's a police dog he's a tool you can love him you can cry if he gets killed but you gotta treat him like a dog and that's not a bad thing it's just they're not a human

you know dogs live for the they live for primarily food sex love and you know satisfying drive

“and you have to look at him in that respect and if you don't you know you gotta establish that”

hierarchy I guess we talked about earlier and if you don't do that you have problems special with these dogs you know they're they're up there you want to get a dog that's got that high drive and has all those traits for police work but if they're not handled appropriately you can turn that dog into an nasty dog you know and it's not the dogs fault it's ways been handled yeah I mean coming up on the leash by the handler by the search team members these are all the things

that happen dog training and it's usually a human problem you know usually it is some dogs you know come out of the letter they're just too alpha they grow up very dominant and they're not the kind of dog you want you know like when you're selecting a dog especially as a pop you're looking for the dog if you're looking at a litter you don't want that alpha dog you maybe want the number two or three dog in the hierarchy because he's going to be

but easier to manage you know you don't want the you know number eight dog that's got no drive

drive and that alpha mentality but you know you'll get some dogs in the litter that

“they're kicking all the other dogs asses all the time they're like they're just relentless they”

they don't get along with any mama's always correcting that dog to leave the other dogs alone

probably if if you're looking at a mall and want or a shepherd probably not the great the best dog for police work really well because you're going to see that same thing happen to a great credit dominate you God and some of these things like I said they're they happen over time like you talked about your pit bull thing some police stuff or some kind of nozzles don't handle the dog appropriately and next you can know I've seen God dogs come out of training and he was a great

dog great team you're later I get a call from somebody hey someone so this dog just ate them up I go what happened I don't know but then I get out and watch him I'm like okay I can see what's going on here you know you're not you didn't maintain the alpha you didn't and in a fair way

“you know this means about kicking the dogs but it means that the dog has to understand that”

everything comes through you like I live through you I get water from you you feed me you keep me alive

and you also make him earn everything especially the dominant dogs you know like little things like and at home you know the way he dogs have to be consistent you can't treat him one way at home and then go to work and treat him another way because they're not going to it's got to be very consistent and structure the dog will respond accordingly so it's little things like you know you go to put him in a police car put him on a sit open a door

car so you're telling him what to do he comes out of the car you open a door and make him wait come to your heel because he's not going to want to wait if you've done car deployments for the guy the dog is sent out of the car to go into play and catch somebody

we do a lot of that um that can cause reactions that you don't want he might just pop out one time

and go by the wrong person because there's no structure there anymore you know makes makes sense yeah yeah so you really have to and everything you're doing you got to really treat him like like a dog walk me walk me through if you can think of a memorable apprehension walk me through it apprehension process well yeah god something from in the field you know yeah I mean I got some really good capers but we talked about the fear scent there was a time I was a handler

“and I wasn't a trainer I was new in a unit and we had these cops I think in 77 they were ambushed”

they were deep in 77 they wasn't residential neighborhood probably taking a report call or whatever and while they're getting in their car guy pulls up cranks off a bunch of rounds blows out the back windows the cops are okay but I'll help call so they set up a two-block perimeter and of course this is when we were transitioning over to utilize you swat as our backup so the policy was if we have that kind of a high threat we have to use swat as our search team members

yes fine you know because they're trained at that high degree and they've got the weapons and all that stuff and but but they're also working with us now so they have to do canine tactics and not spot tactics which is another conversation because this dude shot at these cops yeah he runs off he runs up and you know within two blocks where he is yeah they have the containment up they have the airship overhead and we have a lot of resources which is great it's it spoils us because the

airships are the best in the country I mean the way they can operate and communicate and use their flare system you know the all that stuff they're just they're golden and even back then just you're talking a long time but this by 20 years ago but anyways the guy builds out he's in a containment and I start doing my we're starting a systematic search and what I mean by that is we have like a one-block let's say and it's a long block it's in 377 and we have a team

on each side we have a team here and a team here I'm searching over here we've got a spot person over this and what we want to do is we want to hopscotch so one team searches the yard and then pushes next team does the same thing and then pushes but we don't want to be back the back because of crossfire oh so we want to make sure that we're safe but at the same time we don't want one team to get too far ahead because you want to keep pushing

the guy one way and these suspects are very savvy I mean they'll you'll we used to interview all of our suspects after we would catch them yeah yeah we we brush them off and treat them really nice because we want to get info we find out all kinds of stuff like where did you run what made you put down why did you move all these things really we put it in our head as far as you know tactically how do these guys like you do like an exit interview yeah almost and you know

you know which is fine I mean just you know maybe he's a wanted suspect or whatever but

“let's think about let's think ahead here okay ask him you know and they'll tell you and what”

they try to do is if one team gets too far ahead and they're glancing over the fence and they're watching the airship at the same time and they know that if that airship orbits at a certain point he's he's going to be out of view and he'll say that during the interview and they says that's when I moved huh then I hit again because they're trying to escape some guys will just put down the old suspects when I came on a unit used to just run and put down but they got very savvy because

they knew can I was going to search at LA so then they started trying to break the printer and try to find holes in the printer like a unit wasn't paying attention on the printer he's looking at doing a peeksy he says okay I got time I'm gonna jog over to the next block you know these things would happen we develop you know so these dudes get savvy to how to avoid a dog unbelievable and how to escape and all that so we're pushing this guy we're pushing we're pushing so I'm starting

“over here with I think the backup guy was a red oil good guy it's what guy big guy”

we're pushing this guy get about the third yard and my dog comes out and I'll mind you

and I know it sounds cliche but I had a great dog he was like I mean even the guys in the unit they said there was times when I got into one shooting and that's another story where the handler actually says hey look my dog's not getting anywhere he says bring out your keep bring up you know your dog would do his magic so anyways back to this story we're pushing we're pushing and also my dog's exits the yard and his nose goes up now tactically you don't really want to

do this I don't teach this you want to even if your dog gets odor you don't want to miss anything so you keep pushing because you don't want to take a chance of bypassing a yard god you might he might okay doke you or fool you or whatever it's just not good but my dog was just telling me he's got odor I mean he's like a fishing line I mean he's got so much change of behavior that I'm I'm I'm using the caller the call him back and we're playing pressure on the caller the

E call it right here because he's got so much drive to just want to blow past these yards so I look at Doyle I go look he's got something down the street I'm going to go with it airship follow me so we pass about five or six seven yards and he's just sucked in goes into the yard dives into hope bush and he's on this guy just taking care of business and guns out laying over there and Doyle's on top of the guy all excited about taking into custody and I'm yelling it on my

says hey I go come on back I got to call my dog off because I do what's called verbal outs I'm a very big proponent of that we can get into that later it's safer it's technically more safer a lot of guys will do what's called choke off or hardouts but then you're you know I don't like that so but I can't call him off until Doyle gets off him so I literally grab him and then I call Kino back to my side taking into custody but Doyle goes afterwards says that was awesome

your dog got that guy eight yards away that the fear sent that I'm talking about yeah at that time Kino probably already had a hundred apprehensions you know at that point yeah he was well seasoned he just knew that smell yeah I mean he was just you could tell I mean and a lot of Kino guys will tell you that they just know you're searching yard and also you get about four five yards in it and the the adrenaline kicks into you and the whole hunt

things happening and you can see your dog alerting we're on your own track or sometimes we'll say hey we'll get it hold the other unit on the backside of the search and I'll say hey

“my dog's picking them all up picking up a lot of odor I think he's on your side so you're getting close”

yeah then we should go out of things like that all right everybody if you're getting fired up for spring turkey season you're going to want to hear this man I'm Tony I'm fired up well anyway right now we're running the ultimate spring

turkey giveaway in his pack with over thirteen thousand dollars in prizes including an incredible

turkey hunting experience gear from sick a shotgun from Benelli a one thousand dollar gift card from first light and a whole big pile of gear from other partner brands one lucky winner is going to receive a spring two thousand twenty seven Rio Grande turkey hunt in the Texas Hill Country for you and two of your buddies or family members brought to you by bird dog and during the giveaway the more you spend at first light phelps game calls FHF gear in the meat eater store the more

entries you'll earn for a chance to win the entire prize package getting entered as easy just head over to the first light contest page at firstlight.com fill out the entry form in your end remember

to win the whole damn prize pack but don't wait around the giveaway ends one minute before midnight on Monday April 13th, 2022 and 26 so you got all day of that day but it ends right before midnight gobble gobble what prevents the guy from shooting the dog well it has a good point I mean and that's another whole story you know what prevents the guy from shooting you know

“I think you have like two or three different kinds of suspects okay one of them you have a suspect”

doesn't give a shit you don't care if you die is suicide by cop it's hard to work that kind of guy because you know you can do the best tactics in the world he's just going to take you out we've had cops get killed because of that then you have the other guy that wants to survive you know but he'll hurt you if he can yeah so if you drop your tactics and he gives you an opportunity he's going to hurt you but if you open on them with good tactics you know I used to

I teach this and I got it from a sergeant many many years ago as a great sergeant jack or pass away a couple of years ago it's a great sergeant and he had a thing he called the

tactical clock and when you have everything at even at 12 the suspect is always ahead

because he has to be he he can be he can be proactive he can shoot you without any cause or whatever cop can't do that he's behind a clock because he has to be reactive he's got to wait and see what happens yeah you just can't go out killing people yeah it's not like a military

“operation you know where they're and I thought the story but you know what I mean you have to”

yeah there's laws and rules and policy and you have to adhere to that so it puts you behind the power curve so the only thing you can do is to have tactics that are overwhelming so the suspect's going to say hey I might take that guy out but his back him's going to kill me yeah you know the the the rear guards are going to get me whatever because the way that we work and we do everything off lead which is great because when the dog works off lead and he's not restricted

with a long line like a lot of departments do and they're great dogs don't get me wrong and I work with them all the time but I've been asked to actually do marry classes with guys that do long line tactics and I go you know I don't do that I don't teach that everything you do is off lead when a dog works off lead that dog offers you reaction time because he's way out ahead of you

“good you know he's within range to see but reaction time is everything you know with a long line”

you're restricted 20 30 feet and the dog is always on the line you know lands getting tangled up

on stuff and it's getting what right out and plus the dog can't work right either when a dog is working offline especially when he gets good at it the magic really starts happening because they're using totally using the dog's natural instinct to hunt with no restrictions and he also knows through time that that's going to direct me into order it's it's up to me to expose my dog to order it's up to the dog to listen and trust me that if you follow my direction I'm going to leave

the lead to the promise land we get that connection the dog performs really well I mean any guy will tell you a season dog is like gold I mean because he takes so long to get to that point it's just a lot of training in particular like the more experience he has more valuable I mean it's like you're like you're like one you know you can read your dog you know exactly what he's telling you and and you can trust them so like let's say you know there's a bunch of

bushes over there and my dog will come in a train dog will usually hit the corners all by himself because sin has a tendency to bleed off into the the perimeter of the yard so you want to you want

to kid that perimeter first and then detail the rest of it so it's a it's a it's a science and

it's an art you want to allow that dog to hunt and self discover as much as you can but you also want to do a systematically so he doesn't miss anything good sometimes you know you a dog mean I get deep enough this inhalers will make a steak mistakes and they'll miss somebody because you didn't get his your dog on odor you can't blame him on him because let's say you're doing a warehouse and you're not getting him deep enough into the rooms you know in scent plays a

you know scent is not scent could be very finite sometimes depending on the environment and not there might have to get his nose right on the edge of that door and then boom you know he alerts got into behavior starts barking at the door okay guys behind it so you so so you direct the dogs pace yes you don't want to overdirect him but you also want him to hunt but he has to listen and that's a whole training thing you know there's you know this e-caller helps a lot

30 40 yards away how are you how are you communicating to the dog with commands and stuff like

if you go into a warehouse how are you communicating to the dog I want you to go into that room more a good point um but like let's say tactically let's say if I'm entering a warehouse that maybe has an L shape to it big warehouse and you want to let your you do your announcement which is lovely um it could be a lot of things but with us it might be like you know this is LAP to canine we're doing a canine search we know you're in there if you don't want to get hurt and

bit come out surrender yourself you got one minutes of surrender come out of your hands up follow the light follow my voice whatever and you mentioned the dog and you mentioned getting bit yes you tell them all that in fact now it's really anal I mean back in a day you know now we have to record it the units on the perimeter like in an outside perimeter they have a pre-recording in Spanish and in English got it and it's got to be timestamped and all those rules have to be followed

that you know you make sure like the guy I never heard an announcement that kind of thing yeah

“you need to do your due diligence and that all takes time so but we battled that because now”

that we have to do all that when somebody requests the canine airships overhead while we're on a route they get all that done it's already done yeah so we show up boom boots on the ground yeah so because at first we're getting there's like okay we're 20 minutes into this thing we have any kicked off yet and time is of the essence in a search it's not like a barricade we're a guy's in a building you know when you you may have a containment in a block but that's

us because freedom of movement you know and that'll get you every time he has freedom to move fortifies position relax you know maybe get into a friendly house or even a or even a non-friendly house which they try to get into it so you want to start putting pressure on him as soon as you can go so I lost track what was I talking about was asking about when you go into a warehouse how are you communicating to the dog like no no go check that room more right don't worry about that

room like how do you do that sometimes we have to do that because there's scent problems we might recognize something through experience that odor is gonna play funny like we might want to turn all the air conditioning off oh yeah because it's gonna suck up odor and do weird things you know scent does weird like a lot of guys will be hiding in a false ceiling like this oh they do yeah sometimes in buildings and what will happen is the the scent picture down here

could be totally different up there so my dog may hit at the corner over there barking up a storm crawling up the wall okay guys guys up there somewhere but guess what he's over here on the other side because scent is coming down there for some reason I got it so all you can do is use the dog is a tool okay I know I got odor and then it turns into okay I want to put my dog up we got a hand search it now because the dog that as much as he can it'll make sense yeah so we get a lot of

“capers like that but a good dog will pinpoint isolate odor and you have to give him time you'll see him”

you know a new dog might take longer because he's working out that self discovery thing we talked about but a good season dog he'll he'll bounce back and forth and boom he's right in the corner of that door or that dipsy dumpster or we found a lot of guys and trash cans we've got in some major shootings and trash cans guys like the hide and trash can you love trash at least in LA or crawl spaces yeah they love crawl spaces you know the race foundation yeah and it's hard because it's a hard

scent picture but when your dog finds his first crawl space find he'll never leave a crawl space

like that again oh really yeah he'll be he'll be checking every crawl space forever it's like something happens with that scent picture yeah because that's what dogs learn by they learn by pictures and in chaining events right so the more pictures you show them in a positive way it's

“like a snapshot and that's how he learns so they learn like some architecture I mean they learn like”

building structure sure yeah they learn they learn uh like for an example and another dog did it my dog once he we got real season if you can picture a drone over a perimeter yeah and you see these big wide open yards you know five six seven of in a block my dog would go in automatically at the corners by sector all of himself I'd go in double check come out do the next yard but my dog would do this he would do the same yard and let's say the dog here's a fence

and there's a shed on the other yard yeah and the guys hiding in the shed so we come over here and he'd alert even though the shed's 20 feet away in the next yard but he can't get to it yeah because the fence when he'd be frustrated and without me saying a word he'd run out

that's how smart they get yeah because you allow them to learn to be a predator you know

like their natural state which is what they you know what they were like a wolf for what yeah so yeah they learn structure they learn structure they learn association and they

“change those things together and they just become a better animal are they on hand signals?”

yes there's good point I do there's some units that don't I teach them to follow the hand signals that's a big that's a good really good question I teach them to follow hand signals and the light so the light and the dark environment like you teach them to like they'll go where you shine a light yes and I like the light there's guys that we experiment with and I have two with the laser but the problem with the laser is dogs don't see very well at night they don't

see very like you when they need lateral movement okay like most predatory animals do they need the back and forth I mean if a guy's hiding in a dark spot in a bush and I've seen this happen and really dark the dog will go in and I can see him I can see the shadow dog go in and start doing this we can't see him trying to find he's almost like bumping into him and tell me bumps and then he goes oh shit there it there it is oh really so he smells and

but he doesn't smell them and the odors right there and he's excited but he's working it out yeah and he's funny to watch it I've done we've done stuff in muzzle like you know where we actually hit the equation and we do a lot of muzzle searching for a lot of reasons getting a dog ready for the street and all that that's another whole topic we can talk which is

“probably something important to talk about but yeah we direct them with the light we give them”

what's called a search command and remember it's we've chained all these events we've done the announcement yeah becomes a marker it's time to search special for a new dog so that consistency thing okay it's time to search put them on it down through the announcement back off from the entry level

because the door is always a kill zone you don't want to just blast them from there we got

guys that are shot there you know gotta be wary of that because the suspects are waiting so if you have that big warehouse with that L shape let's say use the sender dog in and we let him out his head we just let him kind of get some odor but at the same time before we let him go deep we want to get our backside done first we want to clear an area that is safe okay so we we structure we we we tell him sometimes with the collar but most dogs will do it if they're

trained properly you call them back here revere hand signal to the right hand signal to the right hand signal to left detail the backside okay we got somewhere to go to now and that's that's a safe area if something happens right yeah and then we start allowing the dog to search and then we we try to we try to as much possible keep the dog in view you know because sometimes a guy can hide in a spot where the scent is very minute you won't get that hard alert you'll get a

“little bit of a change of behavior and then that's what you've got to recognize like that head might”

go up but if you don't stick with it and you move beyond it you might miss the bad guy god because and the dog could be a really good dog but sometimes that scent is very subtle and you've got to be able to see that as a handler you know when I'm doing certifications or new dogs that's part of the problem getting that handler to be able to read his dog like I'll have another trainer with me and we're doing a search and we're looking and the dog is alerting he's showing

a solid change of behavior and then the handler just calls his dog and leaves it got and then halfway through the search I'll go we stop put your dog in it out and hunt birds just saying like

yeah everybody's like he's the dogs getting birdie and the guy that knows the first guy that knows

the dogs getting birdies who owns the guy that knows the dog you can see it but you guys like I'll do guy will miss it though right and then and I'll let him and I don't want to go on and on with a search and knowing that he just bypassed that guy to go because then it becomes detrimental to the dog and I go look I go just to make sure I've got my other trainer here and we both saw the alert yeah okay sometimes when I'm hiding somebody I'll tell him to go hide and not even tell

him or he's at he keeps me honest god so that when I'm evaluating somebody I can say I have no idea where's that but I saw your dog alert and you missed it I got you boneed up so you can't do that so get your dog back over there and then he goes oh yeah how did I miss that well you missed it and you don't want to miss a guy in the street yeah that's a big deal for you and it's especially with L.A. you know you miss a guy and it's one thing to miss him when you can't get

your dog there like a fortified structure you can't get in it's all locked up and you'll tell the command post hey we stretched everything except for that I want us to bust in or not it says no we can't bust in okay well it's not clear two hours later the guys found in there because we didn't

yeah but it's another thing when you have search an area and you call it clear and then suspect comes out

“you know and I've got some stories on that looks bad yeah yeah do you there's got to be things”

that you can train a dog do and things the dog just has to come out of the box ready to do you talk about biting right is is can you train a dog to bite or does it got to be that that dog wants to bite that's a great question like wants bite from birth yeah that's a great question

because some dogs do they they have a propensity to come out and their first apprehension they have

the no problem biting a real bad guy that's not normal and sometimes when you have a dog that is that quick maybe edgy it brings about other problems because he's almost too much going that way got it your normal dog is going to be you know need training when they come out when you test these dogs are usually from Europe and they're competitive dogs in KVP brings sport shifts and work and it's really big deal over there they make a lot of money doing it not as not as popular as it

“used to be but it's still a big deal you can you know look it up on the website and look at”

some of the trials and all that that they that they do you see the dog hitting the guy in the bite suit

the call-off the recalls the escorts you'll be at the end the agility all that stuff and they compete

with these dogs and they get different scores and some of these guys some of the vendors or even some of the big trainers out there after they get a couple of high scoring dogs they'll sell their dogs good to Americans and sometimes they're titled and sometimes they're not sometimes they're green when we mean what I mean by that is they're brought to a certain level they know how to bite they're pre-oriented you know they love to pray toy like this right here whether it's

a Jew or something to play with they've done maybe a little bit of search work who knows you don't know and they're young though they're very young so they need to be brought along and that's

“another story and after 9/11 things really changed because the dog world exploded I mean it exploded”

with the apprehension the bomb dog detection I mean the military you know they were getting

hundreds and hundreds of dogs and the whole thing just went crazy so the need for dogs was pretty high and that's when some of the younger dogs started coming out and they're good dogs I mean you could take a younger dog in fact that's pretty much the younger dog sometimes has a lot of benefits because he's not locked into the equipment and what I mean by equipment is the bite suit the sleeve the end of garment sleeve and all that stuff that is used in training and and

competition so but how do you get it to right so that's the whole thing when you're when you're working the dog and you get some of the basic training that you your teaching a dog out of hunt but at the same time you want to start introducing things you know when when I'm teaching a dog everything I'm doing is for the end result which is tactics and catching a bad guy so you take some of those disciplines that are learned in ringsport and kvp in shitson and you use them you do some of those disciplines

it makes sense for you but you trash some of the other ones it don't make sense and one of them would be to get them off equipment so you do a lot of you get that dog interested in or you get him to accept the muzzle very quickly and there's different kinds of muzzles but you want that dog to be able to be neutral in the muzzle some of the problems just to talk about training all put muzzles on some dogs that have had aggression training in muzzle which is fine but

they're not neutral in muzzle so when that muzzle goes on he gets aggressive and that's not what you want you want you want him to be gunfire neutral you want him to be muzzle neutral you don't want rounds going off and a dog's looking for somebody to nab or bite now he's not safe you want him to be able to just accept the gunfire and move on to his work same thing with the muzzle so the muzzle allows you to when you're playing cat and mouse when you're playing hide and seek with the dog and

you're setting up training scenarios when that dog learns how to hunt in the muzzle not only just hit in the muzzle because when a dog is really good in the muzzle you'll send him on a straight hit and he'll hurt you I mean I've had guys without protection broken ribs and from the dog hit and even though he can't bite yeah you just like rockets you got trained right and I train them really good in muzzle I do I have a certain technique and and my dog is you know they'll they'll

they'll put some hurt on you so sometimes we'll wear a vest sometimes uh over a big jacket will wear like a ski vest or something we're skiing vest because they'll hurt you um plus it depends

thing would be to do what's called a lot of civil fines and when I say civil it means no equipment

so when I'm hiding people right away I try to take all the equipment off him he's hiding in that cabinet we got him stuck in there and you know he's sweating up a storm he's in his tight but you want to mimic the real environments like for example you might start just leaves into something else you might start a dog on a really simple odor like a really small closet with a door because you know the sense going to be true and the dog knows how to apprehend he knows

how to get you know take bites and all that but you want to introduce him into odor so we'll put a guy in a suit behind that door and we'll let him cook up that means he's uh a lot of

scent is developing inside that small room and we crack the door and make it super easy so

we may do the announcement 20 yards away or at the beginning of the room and then depending on

“the dog what I think he might need we know LAPD come out of your hands up and then the decoy will”

do a picky boo he'll open up and he'll paint a picture he'll start screaming at the dog and the dog is barking he's all excited then he shuts the door and leaves it cracked we send a dog in so now we want to teach him to be able to you know bark at the scent so he'll go in frustrated going okay where do you go and he's thinking some dogs will pick up on really quick they'll go and they'll start working it and all said you'll see his nose go up

and he goes to that corner and then he starts scratching and he gets frustrated and it's important for the handler to shut up because you want that alert to be between him and the odor it's called making a dog be obedient to odor and you'll see the mistakes sometimes a handler will be back through going what you got buddy dog looks around he goes okay you just marked it so in other words

“instead of the dog self discovering you've told the dog to alert and then what happens is”

the dog will end up falsing he'll go to a door check it out look back get you you'll think the guy is in there and you'll go what you got dog starts barking open and turn nobody's there because you marked it and it's not about you it's about what happens right there at that odor makes sense yeah little things like that will happen and you know when I go do a lot of problems solving I'll see it right away the dog will be you know at the scent and he's looking back

I go you've been talking to your dog a lot haven't you yeah you got to shut up I go in fact get out of the room go hide and leave your dog do his thing I don't want to even see you and then we fix it so that because you don't want that dog falsing all right everybody if you're getting fired up for spring turkey season you're going to want to hear this man I'm telling you I'm fired up well anyway right now we're running the ultimate spring turkey giveaway in this pack with

over thirteen thousand dollars in prizes including an incredible turkey hunting experience gear from

two of your buddies or family members brought to you by bird dog and during the giveaway the more you spend at first light phelps game calls FHF gear in the meat eater store the more entries you'll earn for a chance to win the entire prize package getting entered as easy just head over to the first light contest page at firstlight.com fill out the entry form in your end remember for every 25 box you spend you get 10 additional entries one winner will be selected to win the whole damn

prize pack but don't wait around the giveaway ends one minute before midnight on monday April 13th two thousand and twenty six so you got all day that day but it ends right before midnight gobble gobble I'm gonna get back to a question I'm trying to sort of look the bite yeah like yeah I mean so dog might go up and find something but how do you ever get to how do you ever get to where you know the dogs and come up and bite but also not bite the guy in the face sure well you

know almost all the bites are going to be on the extremities that's just what a dog is going to

“do well that's what is going to be offered to you during day quite work okay you know one of the”

one of my favorite bites is the insider on bite I like that one there's also a thing called bite marking way way back in a day we used to do a lot of what's called pulling on the bite and I call the more of like a prey bite and it's not a it's not a good bite not a bite that's going to take down a suspect you want a dog that's going to be digging in and you mark the mark that with a good decoy work that means the dog bites and he pushes good that's just a detail you prefer to

he's biting on the inside I like it because the decoy can really work the dog he can feel it a good decoy will tell you what he needs a good decoy and I my training groups I actually hire a decoy

now I hire people to do it and it's hard work but they're good and it makes that dog you know

“I can fix the problems a lot with a good skill decoy you know do brings poor kvp and all that”

pay him some money they come in they help but when he's when that dog's biting let's say for example a dog has a propensity to pull so when you take that inside arm bite and dog comes in and he's pulling you ignore the behavior you don't give him a mark on it and then you wait to dog out then pretty soon he's not getting any kind of reward he's just kind of pulling also he does this bites oh you do a mark and then the dog does again and pretty soon that

rebound you do a reaction yeah you'll you'll turn away go to submission and he likes that and he likes that because you're showing that you're kicking his ass you know it's all okay

he's all picks up on it oh I get a reaction here because what he was trained to do

was some we call him bite dummies you're not doing anything for them you're just a bite dummy the

“dog will bite he's pulling and he's pulling and the handler's going over the decoy's going”

he's marking all bad behavior so the dog learns to pull come with the pull bite if you have a real apprehension the dog might pull and rip off clothes and start shaking on it you got a piece of prey that goes into another whole story so you want that that bite to be firm and pushing so you can like you encourage the dog to bite how you want it by the decoy overreacting when it's doing the bite it's very subtle too you don't need to scream and it's just little things like

you're looking at that dog you're feeling the confidence the decoy will tell you okay don't call him yet don't call him let me watch him you read bites and pretty soon he's pushing oh yeah and pretty soon he's pushing and digging in and the bites really strong and then you obviously keep your control and all my all my hours are verbal outs which is another thing you know a lot of guys do chokeoffs do you ever get a dog that's got too much like he's too good at biting

and it winds up being not safe to use the dog well he's only not safe he's biting the wrong thing

oh you mean because he's so powerful yeah that's a good point I'll leave it nameless there was

a problem I worked with I still work with them I have a contract with them and one of their old handlers had a dog and he was the son of his other dog from a really good breeding line and it was a shepherd and not a lot of shepherds out there anymore there are there's some great shepherds but everybody's using the mouths no Dutchies you know I ran a great shepherd whatever but this dog was a powerful dog and he had a couple of apprehensions where he bit him wasn't

long in a bite and both of the guys are and that can be a problem if the dog's bite broke the dude yeah it wasn't like he was on him long this dog I mean you would take a bite on him through the bite suit and it would hurt I mean that's where neoprene under garments and the bite suit

“yeah otherwise you're feeling some good pain you know I remember working dogs back in”

a day we had some pretty lousy bite suits the department wasn't um keeping up on our equipment and I'd go home sometimes I didn't even know it take my t-shirt off get ready to go to bed and I can't get my shirt off and I got blood dried up blood on my uniform t-shirt stuck he didn't go through the suit but the pressure yeah made me bleed yeah my arms all black and blue hurts you know they bite hard even with a bite suit you uh you when we talk before you

explain something to me that like you tell people about when you go to buy dogs and you're in the police work and you're in your shop and for dogs from the same sources that the military is shopping for dogs right you're saying the military wants dogs that don't bark but you guys want dogs that do yeah the police want dogs that do bark right and that's more of a thing that that's just like the dog's tendency and not necessarily a thing that you train into a dog like at the

department silent you know it's easy to make a dog silent it's easy to make a sign most dogs will come in silent um you know you gotta teach them to bark like an order and all that or you do okay yeah you do I mean sometimes we'll pick it up pretty naturally but sometimes we're really quiet we had a dog that came out of training from another vendor and he's a good friend of mine and they had a they had a tendency of not getting that dog those dogs could bark on the odor and we had some

discussions by go hey look because once that dog is allowed to find somebody in that closet or that covered and show in some indication but no bark and then he gets paid with a bite you've taught them to be quiet you know and if done that over and over again it's hard to fix and that's problem that if you guys because of legal issues the dogs got a bark yeah it's just it's something positive that you can say and and helps you as a handler like I mean for example too he he may not even

that ceiling the dog is trained to get as close to source as possible and bark so you'll have a dog

that can't get close but he's as close as he can you'll crawl up that wall let's start barking you know that's pretty good that's a pretty good indication I have and he also it studies the dog when I mean by that is the dog is given a behavior to do and when you first teach him to bark at odor you go with one or two barks bite okay next one one two three four barks bite and then you want to vary it you know that variable to intermittent and what that means is you're

going to lock in the behavior sometimes I want you bark in 20 times at that door sometimes I want you bark in twice because if you don't do that if you don't you know you use pattern to train

“a dog but you have to know when to deviate from the pattern to make the behavior solid yeah”

I mean but that is it might be bark bark bark oh no bite I'm gonna leave because I always get

bite on the third bark so you want to build up the tolerance you know the time the length and all that so the dog stays at that odor because you might come up in a real search where you know you want to make sure the guy's there like you're calling out swat you got all these resources you really want to make sure that guy's going to be there so there's not a reason there's not like a legal reason I thought the dog would need to bark no it's like you know as a way to like

announce itself to the suspect so the suspect couldn't like come at you legally sure sure and sometimes you can bring them back and have the dog bark up you know but if your dog barks at a door we're going to deescalate we're going to call them back in a real search and we're going to order

“the guy out and we're going to do it several times in fact with L.A. I'm not sure about some of the”

other departments but even the departments I work with if a guy is in a shed in a dog is solid he's barking and you just shot you know let's see just shot a cop or murdered somebody times on your side you know you don't need to make an entrance into there call your dog backs around it treat like a barricade go then you have all these other tools you can bring in you can 40 millimeter gas it whatever but there's no there's no rush to go in and that would be my training you know

because you're going to hit on that it's like you know there's been a lot of lawsuits out there were guys you know they cowboy their way in and then they they actually kind of make a shooting happen you know because and that's that goes interlay why use a canine you know I can just get into this little bit back in a day when canines on L.A. were still kind of new and there was a we were having an issue with our use of force division and they were teaching a lot of how to chase a suspect

how to chase how to play a corner how to wait be safe all that stuff and I watched and the sergeant was doing was a great guy very good instructor but I'm coming from another world you know I'm coming for canine so I'm not teaching how to chase a guy I want to teach how to contain so you're not going to catch people if you're chasing them unless you can unless you're an athlete

you can run the guy down within the first 20 30 yards he's gone if you're doing it safely because

when you're chasing an arm suspect or potentially that guy cuts a corner you're not going to cut the corner you're going to you're going to buy that corner slow and make sure he's not going to ambush you yeah or you're going to get shot maybe so if your teeth if your if you're chasing him properly he's going to gain ground on you all the time because he doesn't have to worry about anything yeah so why not back off and contain the guy so we we would teach like hey if you can't run this

guy down quick and you know your average patrol cop you're in the car it's cold it's your calm you've been just had code 7 you just said something to eat you've been relaxed and now this guy this athletic suspect boom is running and you're coming out with 40 pounds of gear on you get hurt you're going to get sick you're going to rip your hamstring whatever it happens all the time so contain this guy so the city of L.A. the way the cops are trained is to contain

and it's phenomenal people across the country can't even believe sometimes are find ratio like contain him a lot of settle in yeah and deescalate and the way I sold through the apartment I go hey look you want to get your use of force capers down your use of force incidences where it's an investigation if you're going to chase somebody run them down it's going to be use of force you know you're going to tackle the guy could be a fight

“everybody gets hurt suspect gets hurt boom if you want to deescalate that contain this guy”

plus it's safer right you give you give that that chance that suspect you're a chance to deescalate and you're going to catch them so what I'm getting out when I was on a unit we had about a

allegory and one of the chief trainer on L.A. P.D. now and they supposedly have like a 70 to 75%

find ratio that means every time a perimeter is set that's the odds are catching somebody and it's not because of the canine it's because of the perimeter units are walking these guys in God like when you see a pursuit on TV and you've got you know the old thing used to be and still you'll see it on TV you got primary suspect travel in at a high rate of speed and you got seven cars behind them yeah it's stupid because your seventh car is not doing anything so you're

going through this neighborhood with a big daisy chain chasing a guy what our guys will do and

“another part like it's final chase scene in blue it's like here there's a remember that I think”

called the animal planet there was an aton barrel whatever doing an iteration yeah and he was doing it they had some great footage maybe had drawn I don't know what they had but it was they were filming the those African hunting dogs okay there was certain breed out there and they were in big packs not like wolves they're like 30 of them and they had them chasing a deer and it was just like I train or we train they had about three or four of them chasing this deer

then they had the group splitting off God so they had a rolling containment so by the time they surrounded this thing the deer ended up going into the water but they had them curall yeah because the deer hadn't over to go now they would have been all right here he's got open space left and right but that's a natural thing that they developed you know without just beautiful right so instead of seven cop cars chase yeah that's right out yeah well an airship a good airship

and us well we can tell when a guy is going like the airship will say okay it is be advised he's

“slowing down I think he's looking for a place to bail because he's in a friendly area now he's like”

his own territory unless he's like doing some like let's say a south-end guy in 77th he's capering in west Ola by Beverly Hills he's gonna he's gonna bail quick because he's out of his territory right he's got to get out of the car quick because he knows it's gonna be a containment so he's not gonna go for a long but when you get into pursuit in 77th he's gonna stay in that car because he's gonna go to an area that he knows and maybe get into a friendly so there's a big

whole different mindset but without being said the airship will say okay he's slowing down units be aware let's start setting up the containment now I need units that are left and right so we'll have

like the primary unit secondary unit maybe a third unit everybody else is out here so when

that guy fails we've already got units here and here so we lock him in yeah he's not going anywhere

“yeah and then your dog comes in and does find ratio just goes up because these guys are thinking”

containment and not chasing yeah it's a whole different mindset and I tried and you know like there's some of the permits I work with like in Texas and great guys they got some good dogs I got in fact one of the guys in Texas you Chris Murray brems a for Harris County they run 20 dogs and he's frustrated because he knows all these tactics and he's getting into the off leash thing like I teach him taught him but they just don't have the resources like that and they do a

lot of tracking they just they don't have that many airships because you need all that stuff and I feel bad for some of the smaller agencies because you can really lock these guys down with a good airship but you're using a lot of drones now drones are coming in really handy these big drones you know like sites in this couch yeah you know these guys are operating them and it's beautiful what they can do with them so we're to most of the so you're saying it like you're

still involved in dogs and dog training yeah most of these dogs are coming out of Europe yeah most of them are what why is that why is the why is the center of this kind of apprehension

dog coming out of Europe it just always has I mean there's some breeders out here and they've

done some breeding in fact um one of the companies I work with spectrum canine they bred a Dutchy that we got for some Pablo and they bred that dog and that dog is just tearing it up great dog but they know how to breed they know how to bring the dog up properly and because it's a whole process what countries in Europe are big into this you know you got hungry turkey um savakia, France, Holland and Germany Germany used to be bigger because a lot of the

dogs out of there were coming where they were shepherds but some of the more desired breeds it seems to have really gone toward the mouths and the Dutch shepherds got it what's one of these dogs worth coming out come out for a preliminary training when I came on a job we were picking up dogs at 3 3500 now you're talking about 13000 maybe 15 grand and that's for dog which is basic training

yeah they're expensive and then you also you know you want to like I used to work with a vendor

finally kinnels out of Indiana kind of look lighter run it and they get they were getting hundreds

of dogs a year hundreds I had facilities in Indiana we go there I take my guys I had to get a hotel state or for like three or four days test dogs um another man elder of kinnels and riverside they get a lot of good dogs too but you know like my trainer told me once he says where do you find a

“good dog you find a good dog we're a good dog is I mean you have to keep your eyes on them but the”

problem is you want to vendor you can trust so you don't waste your time you also want to guarantee because you could have three months into the dog and things start happening medically or whatever so you want that guarantee that you know but something that I learned kind of the hard way when I was working as a head trainer in LA you I don't know get a little complacent maybe a little

sloppy because you have all this time and I I had a tendency some time not always but and a

dog is not perfect but I can make a work good and then I paid the price for that because you know maybe I can make a work but he's got to go to that handler he's got to continue to make a work god and I learned that you know just through you learned to focus on perfect dogs exactly I learned to be greedy and I learned I learned to fly out to Indiana or go to Riverside

“or wherever I'm going and spend two days training and go well you don't have anything for me I'm”

leaving but sometimes when you do that the guy will go wait a minute I got one dog you didn't see I saved him for special forces but if you really want to see him I'll show him you'll bring him out

and I go you wasted three of my days wrap him up of course I want him you know you were hiding

him for somebody else because a vendor will sell you what you'll buy because not anything against vendors you know they they'll help you to a certain point but their job is to sell dogs yeah you don't want to waste that wood like if you look if you think about bird hunters do you think that like would you recommendation to people train bird dogs or duck dogs whatever would you recommendation be that same thing like you don't waste time on imperfect 100% fact uh huh there was some you know

during the after 9/11 that got really big into the SSD dogs and some of the um um dogs were looking for bombs and they used that same method that the bird dogs do you know they'll I just from training with the Marines on it and they were at Camp Pendleton I was down there training with them doing a patrol dog class but they brought in some of their SSD dogs and uh yeah they were I learned a lot on that because we weren't really into that and they

would contract these dogs out to certain organizations that made a lot of money they were charging departments like caught 40 grand for a dog you know for the training and everything but they were good dogs they were taught to answering them go straight out get older turned around face to left and right some of these guys in the Marines were actually using uh communication devices strapped to their collars so they could talk to them through that god and uh they were finding

bombs and all that because that wood they were they were dogs that were taught to find ground ground explosives yeah so that's all they did you know they did a good job once you take on these services that uh you know these people now you get these people buying these like high-end like kind of like executive dogs you know right the supposed to be like these these like souped up dogs meant to protect you yeah family do you buy that yeah well

here's the problem with that you can anybody can purchase the dog that's going to take care of business but at the same time that dog might get you in real trouble right i mean for real dog a dog that's really going to take somebody down you better you better you better go as you better go through as much training as that dog went through to handle that dog okay and really know the it's like having a weapon right i mean you know you're you just want

hand somebody a gun you teach about a shoot you also want to teach them about liability risk management because you get yourself an a lot of trouble yeah and my someone walking around with some like some dog yeah that means business when he attacks or this he might look really good in the equipment in the bite suit and the muzzle but will he really bite somebody

“because that's what we do that's the problem police work you know because besides the muzzle”

work and the civil finds that i talked about we do undergarments we do prosthetics you know which is like the fake arms you know that we teach a dog to bite different services so that

whatever that guy offers you you're going to bite it good not going to freak out over it or

“release it or you have some kind of problem with it all right everybody if you're getting fired up”

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prize pack but don't wait around the giveaway ends one minute before midnight on Monday April 13th 2000 and 26 so you got all day that day but it ends right before midnight gobble gobble you know what's funny about that man is uh we said electronic predator callers right it's so interesting to watch when a kio comes in rocks and cats come in when they hit that thing how quickly they know that that doesn't feel like what it was supposed to feel like right I mean they they like

back at that they they hate it but I bet you have some dogs that lost right through it you know now I've seen but like with kio it's once they make contact with it they know

“that's like a little decoy right that's in there they know that that's not what they were at like just the”

feel of it right feel with the way it feels on their paws we're here's on their body

they like hit it they're out the door that's that's a that's a good example yeah yeah like they're like that ain't what I thought right and we've we've had that you know we've had that in fact uh yeah my my dog and I was a brand new handler and he was in a situation where we're supposed to bite and he went in there and it was a the final it was still fine and bark but it escalated to a situation where the guy needed to get bit he got aggressive and he went in and he named him and then he

backed off and I'm a new handler and I'm like I'm thinking my dog is hard he's doing all the stuff that we did right and my trainer down here now I come out and go my dog's broken what happened and I was one of those guys I got to be the best that just me I mean I'm I put in tons of training and anything I anything I do I want to be really good at it so I'm like I want the best dog and this is pissing me off and low and behold he says don't worry about it just like I would tell

a new handler now we'll fix it not a big deal so we did a whole lot of stuff muzzle we didn't have an agreement's back then or prosthetics but we did a lot of things to civil him up and to get him that way and the next apprehension that that was required of him he did a great 24 like and after that after that because he was such a strong biker and he had this natural reflex of biting and shaking and so I had to have really good control over him because he was

doing a lot of damage and there's a thing called the 13th floor you know if I should even be getting into this but where the guy is submitted to a hospital it's a jail ward but it's a hospital and a lot of his bites for training into that and the sergeant's just looking at me like what are you doing you're like leaving on a bite forever I go no I'm not I mean I'm he's coming right off so they actually assigned a season handler with me to keep an eye on me I'm brand new you know and

I'm like because this dog's doing too much damage yeah so and I'm like he's a great dog but he's like I'm calling him right off like boom couple seconds and then he saw an apprehension and that salad looks at me so you got better control and you put it in unit he says your dog is popping right off he just bites hard yeah so I have to realize that and you know do things accordingly I mean I think I have to maintain really good control over him it was interesting point you raised the minute

to go you know some about these guys I have a various bodies of mine talk about these dudes it

selling someone a dog this post-protector family mm-hmm how do you ever really know

“that's like only have you've only had them being training until you take them out to attack someone”

hundred percent you could have that thing sitting around for five years thinking it's some big

bad attack dog but that dog has never attacked anybody right and that's my whole thing

that you know that brings me into it it's like an interesting idea that brings me into this yeah here's what's relatable to that there was a time when the guys in the SWAT unit um we weren't getting along very well with SWAT there was a lot of ego is going on that when I left we were golden we like love each other we worked together with them but there was like a competition thing you know can I get in all these bodies they're doing all this stuff and that's a SWAT

caper that's not a canine caper and this kind of silly stuff so we had to we had to get through that but as they develop for some reason they started doing some work with Delta and some of these

“other you know high speed units because you know LAP spots great or like one of the best in the”

country mm-hmm but they're doing all this advanced stuff all the time and Delta their teams are married with a canine guy like LASO Los Angeles County Sheriff's their canines are part of SWAT LAPD SWAT and canine are different different entities so we don't we don't work together per se like that we do train together we do work together but we're not married up like that not like in the military yeah not military or like LASO when they get a SWAT call canines they're

all the time I see with us it's going to be a special event yep so yeah without being said after they did this training with Delta they says we want a SWAT dog this kind of goes into

what you're saying well what's a SWAT dog all of our dogs are SWAT dogs our dogs are always there for

you know and we'll always pick a certain dog that might be better for a certain incident right

“I mean if I need a bigger more powerful dog at this certain location but I'm not understand”

what you're saying who was saying they wanted a SWAT dog or SWAT unit you're SWAT unit you're SWAT unit wanted a specific SWAT dog signed a SWAT that they picked up off from the Delta guy yes okay and I'm thinking and I knew it was coming and I thought well I go the only I go they wanted to go and training and all that I said well the reason that our dogs are SWAT dogs is because they've been out in the street for a year and most of them had about 40 50 apprehensions

already hmm now for you to have a SWAT dog that's going to prove you right and not fail you when everything's on the line how are you going to make that happen you got to be a handler for a while no so you're trying to reinvent the wheel our our dogs are going to take care of business we're going to train with you we're going to do so we'd next it but they wanted that SWAT dog thing and it kind of goes in line with he's not proven you know I can do all the training in the world

here's your SWAT dog you look straight out in the field miles of work bite work whatever but as you really going to take care of business this is the thing that this is the thing I find with with friends mine they have dog hunt dogs is you got there's like the hunt dogs that is just all training it's like putting pen raise birds out and right little meadows and the dog knows he's going to find something ten seconds right it's like that's all that dog ever lived and then

you got dogs that have been hunting for real yep and whenever I hear about all that my field trial this and field trial that I just like I don't I don't care right I don't care hundred percent like the dog has been out doing the real deal stuff in the real world that's interest right well you know we had the same thing I mean there's like a lot of canine trials all over the place not all over but you know they and I guys didn't really compete very much

and sometimes they would and they may not even do very well in them but they're competing against the dog as maybe had one bite and their five years in the job and now you're competing with this guy that's had like 30 40 in the year or 50 or more whatever you know I had 121 bodies one year that's a lot a that's a lot of searching wow and in our heyday and back in the day

40 percent of them got bit that was standard in the industry now that will get you fired

you know now the bait ratio is looked at so you had a year you caught 120 people and 40 bites yeah yeah what like these kind of kind of final final this question here what is the dog getting out of this do you mean like what drives that dog to want to catch a person well it starts from this little toy here that's a piece of prey object it's just a toy

I missed it not only it but it's the natural instinct the predatory and most dogs have it

“even your little poochie dogs they have some kind of prey prey in them you know but some of them”

obviously have a lot more genetically predisposed for all that you know that's like the detection dog they do everything for this this is a reward system which is being a tennis ball or a calm a due toy whatever it might be but the dog's hooked on this and you know when he bites a man it's just a bigger version of this really you know it's now like he's like he wants because yeah he's got no concept of justice no not at all I mean although there is something to say about

protection of of the handler and all that oh you think okay that's a factor I think there is some of that and I'm not so sure how much with every police dog but for a home dog let's say you're going to see some of that like I saw it in my mouth like we talked about I can't you not totally the most trustable dog he's got a lot of guardianists in them and he's very guardian of the family I see and once I get somebody to know him he's totally cool but I found out

the hard way that I got to watch him so one so one a year apprehension dogs could develop a professional like or develop a personal relationship where they are in some part motivated and you know that that's a good question. That's a really good question because the way that I preached to guys and this is you can tell them all day long this is you know for the most part this is a working dog

“and he's not a pet and the worst thing you can do really I think is to treat him totally like a pet”

first of all you want to contain that drive that dog stays in the kennel when it's working and of

course you want to bring him out socializing and all that but when he becomes too much of a family dogs there's been a lot of times when that's bite shouldn't the butt because the dog will perceive something you know maybe a neighbor will come over and do something or move or make some kind of foot of movement and next you know he gets grabbed by this police dog and the lawsuit happens yeah and I've got stories about that so you got to be careful about that stuff you know I mean

it's safer just to treat him but he has he's a police dog he goes in the kennel he goes to work days off bring him out run them around have fun with them play with them do some toy work with them

whatever but his his job is to catch bad guys yeah and sometimes dogs never like that dog

you don't the dogs not angry when it goes at somebody oh that's a good point so when you are training a dog to bite in the beginning as a puppy they're biting out of fun you start off you know maybe with a jute toy you know dogs like you know so big you know three months old you got him on a little jute toys having fun you're playing with them and he's biting and

“and that's how you want to bring a dog up you don't want to do what's called like the old”

centri dogs where they treat teacher dog to bite out of aggression and sometimes even out of defense and fear when a bite when a dog is biting out of defense and fear he's but he's unreliable okay because he's not biting out of fun the aggression will come later you know you want to build aggression to wear he's biting out of fight but that's later on that makes sense yeah so you do that too soon and the dog it can be it can be very

unsettled but a dog it's aggressive as a youngster and bite not a female anger you're not good to toy he's coming out you're biting them you have a monolisha letter run around the toy in his mouth you grab it again you play tug you work on the bite you work on the grip you get all those things then you develop into a bigger tug and as a dog gets older and he has his adult teeth and you bring in the sleeve and then you graduate from the sleeve to the bite suit

and you bring him along that way so by Tommy's nine months old he's he's like on his way you know he saw he's got a nice bite he's biting for the right reason you know he's not biting out of you know I wanted to just kill everybody yeah it's a fun thing total war and all that stuff yeah that makes sense so have you have you have you ever lose a dog you ever have a dog it's shot in a line of duty I've been around it yeah you know that that quick story I was a new

handler I wasn't in the street yet I was still in training and we had a dog the the rotty I was talking about John Hall and he was the season handler he'd been in a lot of shootings a lot of very violent time back then we had a it was a traffic stop by two motorcobs pulled two Hispanics over and he's going to give him a ticket but he had no idea they just robbed a bank or a store they robbed a store so they're thinking shit you know they came out of the car

shots fired pursue him help call and they bail out into a perimeter in West LA which is a

back then we didn't use what it was everything was patrol the unit was a lot newer than it

“you know is now John Hall shows up with his dog and I think it was another Kina I was on the other”

block side of the block searching and while we're about halfway maybe an hour into it I hear the shots fired go off and the help call comes out and I can hear the shooting going on and what happened was he went in there and there was a sergeant a Kina sergeant Mark Morring was on his search team as his backup with a couple of patrol cops the dog entered the garage and he was ambushed right away the dog is on the bite he's already shot in the neck the dog is but he

still taking care of business and now John's having a gun fight with the second suspect and he

gets hit in the hand transitions to his other hand and then's up taking down the suspect and in Mark Morring shot one of them too and then Liberty was still on the bite finally released and his blood out right there oh good so she died and that dog is really sad because he raised

“that dog about pop because one of the dogs he raised from a good breeder trained all you know”

did all the training we've had dogs stabbed we had a dog a really nice dog apprehend somebody in a bunch of inside of a building and the guy pulled out a knife and stabbed him killed it killed them there was another one we ended up actually changing policy on this one sell up a dog I had a dog very Newton division and very sad too he had a really good dog Marco this dog was a nice dog a lot of apprehensions been in gun fights with them and they had a guy under the crawlspace

and then he was wanted for like a burglary or something like a low-grade felon he wouldn't come out and this what this wouldn't be changed our tactics you know so he sent his dog under the house well the guy was ready for it and he wrapped himself with an army jacket he took the bite he had a screwdriver and he'd shanked him behind his head several times and Sal heard the whining dog came off the bite he came out and then he's in his arms like you know laying there

and it was kind of neat because the airship they would never do this today the airship now this is a

“you know a rough area of Newton division residential area I think it was like”

gauge and it was a 50th and some street Broadway or something the airship landed in the middle of the street picked the dog up and flew him to the vet in West LA over a pretty bad house behind the dog roof now he died oh yeah we we all showed up at the vet and Sal's in tears you know and tells a hardcore guy and he's crying but they get totally guys get closer to the dog yeah yeah I cried like a baby when my dog passed away at home he got

bloat and yeah my two boys with me and I'm like she's losing my shit so yeah yeah so what's your business now man so I do I do a lot of like you know I started my business you know like in 2010

and basically we were getting even before I started my business we would get called to help other

agencies do training okay it would be on duty stuff it was just kind of mundane tactics and stuff like that but then I noticed as I was training I couldn't do it when I started my business I wanted to offer advanced tactical training that was kind of my thing but I soon found out that I couldn't because I started in 2010 because most departments weren't doing anything what we were doing they weren't doing off lead work they weren't using the collar like I use it the collar

was more used like a punishment device and not a way to communicate which and you probably heard that from other guys right in the bird world you know not using the collar properly causing all kinds of issues there's a lot of that going on so I developed an e-collar course a five-day course for units to get the dogs to work off lead and do it the right way given directions from a cow yeah and just I got to the point where I developed a class over a period of time through

some trials and tribulations that I got a really solid class now that I can take 10 guys and get them pretty much going as long as they're certified in the street so that's primarily what I do but I also have contracts with a few agencies that I do their maintenance training and but I'm slowing down you know I'm pushing 69 now and my wife wants me to not be gone so much you don't deal in dogs you don't know I don't I don't do that I have I don't do that I have

done some patrol classes but I'm pretty expensive so it's really not you know from from my time they can probably do a better job going to a vendor and getting their patrol done in a group of guys you know what's the name you're well how do you work just under dog roller tactical canine tactical canine and yeah it's going good it's been a great it's been a great

keep a couple pet dogs around and I keep a couple pet dogs around yeah they're painting the

but but yeah trying to do a little more traveling now and all that stuff but and I got I brought two other guys on that are going to be doing a lot more work so I can feel feel more stuff guys that I trust yeah they're going to do the same thing I do you ever think about raising a bird dog no but I've worked with them it's pretty interesting yeah I'd be interested to see if like I'd be interested to see if you you know if you worked with a bird dog what the result would be

“yeah I think a lot of the concepts are probably and I've worked with them with the Marines I”

learned a lot how they work them in fact I'll do the bomb dogs doing the bomb dogs and we talked

a lot about that like here's a quick story um when I first saw them working in Pinnleton

then I did some working in capitalism but they were doing but what they were doing is a rotation dog to go out and do the left and right hand seen those commands the dark turn around said cast them left and right about 150 hundred meters out and they were using a reward system and the reward system try electronics used to make before it became a garment they used to make a bird launcher or yeah what it would do is it would it would it would be you could hide it put the

bird in there in a cage remotely press it bird comes out you need a bird bird yeah bird launcher and for I guess the bird dog guys reason it well they took that same concept and they would put

“a toy in there good all right so the bomb motors over here that's hidden over here so the”

dog were learned a passive alert because it's a bomb they would just sit their own weight and then boom Pam toy goes up and air you get paid just the marker and all that I'm watching them do this I go well you know do you have any other method of pain I say is that is that the marker all you guys call pain like giving your payment you're paying them yeah they pay the dog pay the dog yeah especially in detection Pam he's on order throw the ball on top of his head yeah so he gets

the marker so because yeah yeah we're great I go well I see a problem I said your dogs are are alerting on the bird launcher because the because the picture right oh no no they'll I go let's do an experiment I go put that bird launcher 30 yards over here we're 20 yards away from the bomb the source yeah what you want to find and every one of those they went in and they foraged and

“they they got the bomb motor but they left it and final on the bird launcher is there because they”

know so I said you know you've got a you've got a very everything right now one way to counter it which they actually do now is if you had like 10 bird launchers and have the bomb motor here so that they can't just find one the primary cent is going to be the the bomb motor and there's a lot of a lot of things that guys do where they they mess things up like that you know they don't realize that they use one thing to bridge something but then it cost them well in another way you know

I mean that's sure yeah and part of your work is coming in and troubleshoot yeah you can troubleshoot that stuff exactly sometimes handlers don't even know I mean simple little things like marking behavior I mean you know you'll get I see a dog doing a guy doing obedience with a dog and every time you put some on a set he sits and they jumps up in his face and I said well you want him on a solid down right you don't want that to happen but what he does is what he does is I

watched him work in them the dog was sit and then every time he sits he pays him with a toy to jump up and well that's when he's doing so stop get rid of that ball too much ball work too that's another thing so you can identify things like that they don't even know I even told guys when I was working a dog just to drop your ego I says like I got a problem with this dog what am I doing because this and this is you know Doug you're doing x my and z really I didn't realize it you know

see just got to drop the ego and figure out that you know you're doing something innately that you're not even paying attention to that is causing a bad bad reward for the dog or a bad marker yeah so sometimes it's good for people that will evaluate you you know like we're doing a color work and we have this out here and you know you'll see dogs really quick it's like in a dark environment and they'll pick up on it and they'll get maybe not even get hit with a stimulation

but when you call them off the bite they're going to the guy holding the collar really yeah so then you got to hide it or everybody has a quality just tuned into weirds just for yourself

man you paint that picture and you got to be careful what picture you're painting you always

got to be aware of that you know and a new handler has a hard time because you know I mean I've trained thousands and thousands of dogs and that's why they hire me because I can see those things

yeah it's good well Doug Roller thanks for coming on the show man a pleasure thank you

“you out having me and thank you all the people I know out there well I bet you're going to”

get some emails people who are going to ask you a bunch of dog questions man well it's been a pleasure it's been pleasure meeting you and especially a shout out to the task force heroes you know

“that's how we've seen you eight so well task force heroes Shane yeah Shane you age is a great job”

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