Stop Wasting Your Energy: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead

(upbeat music)

“- Oh, you're gonna love the episode today,”

because today you and I are gonna learn.

How to deal with the people in your life who won't change. I mean, we love these people, but they're so frustrating, right? I know you're sick of it, I'm sick of it. Aren't you sick of wasting your time and energy

trying to push other people to be better, of course you are? Today you're gonna learn a different approach. You're gonna learn how to use the research to pull the people you love, toward the changes that you wanna see,

and they're not even gonna know you're doing it. Dr. Dolly Chug is here in our Boston studios. She is a social psychologist with three degrees from Harvard. She's also an award-winning professor at NYU Stern School of Business,

her entire field of expertise is studying why people won't change. And more importantly, how to effectively move someone else toward changing. So, if you're in a frustrating pattern

with someone that you love, you are listening

“to the exact episode that you need to hear,”

you're gonna love this, because there's so many takeaways that you and I can apply immediately. In fact, Dr. Chug is gonna say, there's only three things that you can do that will inspire someone else to change.

Just three, and if you're like me, you're gonna realize you're probably not doing any of these three things, you're doing the things that don't work.

After listening today, you will finally break free

from the endless, frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging and lecturing the people you care about. And you know what you're gonna feel peace and power. And if you apply what Dr. Chug is about to teach you today, you may just see the people that you care about finally change.

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and three seconds for under $3 a shot. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited for the conversation today.

It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener, you're here because somebody shared this with you. I just wanna take a moment and personally welcome you

to the Mel Robbins podcast family. Today, you and I are talking all about how you deal with people in your life who will not change. You're gonna learn how to stop wasting your energy and more importantly, you're gonna know exactly what to do

to inspire the changes you wanna see and other people. You're gonna love this. Dr. Dolly Chug is an award-winning social psychologist behavioral scientist, a professor at NYU Stern School of Business where her classes are so popular.

They're nearly impossible to get into. Dr. Chug is also a best-selling author who's earned three degrees from Harvard and MBA, a Masters in Psychology and her PhD in Social Psychology and Organizational Behavior.

Today, she is here in our Boston Studios to unpack this science that's gonna help you break free from the frustrating cycle of trying to push other people that you love to change. Because there's a better way.

So how about you and I learn it? Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chug to the Mel Robbins podcast. - I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank you for having me.

- I'm thrilled that you're here too. And I know that this topic is going to resonate with the person who's listening right now and it's going to be incredibly helpful. Could you start Dr. Chug by telling the person who's here

with us what could change about their life and their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us, about dealing with the people in your life that are not changing?

- You're gonna feel lighter. - You're gonna feel more hopeful. You're going to see a path because you're gonna have tools that will help you, both when you're trying to make changes in yourself

and when you're trying to make changes in other people. You're gonna realize you're not alone in those moments,

And you're gonna drop some of the frustration that you have and the expectations that you have of other people. - I love that. - I want to feel more free.

I want to feel lighter. That sounds fantastic because the people in my life drive me crazy. And the other thing is I know that I drive the people in my life crazy.

- Right. - You know there's that famous quote when you know better you do better. - I am. - Yeah.

“- And I think that's true when you look backwards”

at the lessons that you've learned the hard way, but when I think about myself, I will admit that I often know better. (laughs) But I don't do better.

- And your research really sits at the heart of knowing better, but we don't do better. Why is it Dr. Chug that we can know better? We know we should not be drinking tonight. - We know we should go to the gym this morning.

We know that we shouldn't spend money on that thing that we don't need because we're supposed to be saving for somebody. We know we shouldn't snap at our kids, but we don't do it.

- There's two key insights that really help me from the science of human behavior here. And I'd like to think of these insights as understanding our mind as having bodyguards. - Okay hold on, our mind has bodyguards.

- Our mind has these two big bodyguards that are keeping out change and keeping out growth.

And here's what those two bodyguards are all about.

- Okay. So let's do some energy and one of them ego. The energy bodyguard is trying to preserve my energy. They're trying to make my life as easy as possible. And that means that a lot of what we do is on autopilot.

Let me give you an example. I'm gonna snap my fingers and in that snap of a fingers you just had 11 million thoughts. - Wait, what? - Right. - 11 million? - Yes, there's a study that says

that there is so much of our mind on autopilot. Like, for example, let's say you had a long day and now you're heading home, you're driving or you're taking a subway or a bus or you're riding the bike or you're walking.

And you get home, you walk in the door, and you realize you don't remember anything about that commute home. You don't remember red lights or green lights or did you get a seat on the bus?

You just did it 'cause you've done it a million times.

“Well, you know what I think is I literally say to myself,”

"Oh my God, what just happened?" - What just happened? - What just happened? - Right, but the good news is, is that's your body and your brain doing everything it should, conserving energy.

- That's the bodyguard, putting you on autopilot, letting you do the things you know how to do without having to think too hard about it. - Okay, got it. - So I call those little teeth thoughts. - Not little cat, not cat or teeth thoughts, right?

And even right now, the fact that you and I can understand each other that we sort of know which direction to face it, we can detect the temperature in the room and the feeling of our clothes on us,

but we're not necessarily big teeth thinking about it. So in that snap of the fingers,

11 million little teeth thoughts,

they say maybe like 40 big teeth thoughts, actual thoughts, like you're thinking, what should I say next, you know, is this microphone, the correct distance? All those are big teeth thoughts.

“- And these are all happening simultaneously.”

- All that I'm really aware of. - We're not even aware of it, because that's the brilliance of being a human being, is that we are able to do that. And that's because we have this mental bodyguard

that's protecting our energy. And some people refer to it as our unconscious mind is doing a lot of the work. So when we talk about, if we go back to the question of, why when I know something, don't I do it?

- Yes. - Sometimes knowing is talking about those capital teeth thoughts, right, the 40, not the 11 million. But there's still a whole lot going on in our unconscious mind, in our habits,

in our reflexes, that are gonna keep us in a space that isn't closing that gap between knowing and doing. - Okay, so that's one thing, energy, energy. Yes, there's a second bodyguard, and this one's even bigger. This bodyguard is trying to protect

call it our ego, call it our self, call it our identity. It's whatever it is that makes us feel like the person we need to be. There's a study that looked at how much we value, having affirmation, having sort of validation

of these identities we care about, whatever they are, more than your favorite food, more than time with a friend, more than your favorite sex act. We really, really like to protect our identity in our ego, whatever that means.

- Let's say that I consider myself like some,

an identity I care about is being considered kind and warm.

“That's how I define being a good person.”

And I am walking around my neighborhood one day, it's beautiful out, and I think, you know what? Let me take this work call, it's audio only. Let me just put the little air pot in, I'm working from home today and do this call while I'm walking.

It's an important work call, I'm listening intently. I unknowingly blow off a neighbor. I'm in my work call, my little AirPods tucked in my ear, they probably don't see it, they wave. And I hear later that they reported that I blew them off

to someone else, they tell other neighbors that are there as she is being a bit standoffish. - Yeah. - That bothers me a lot. A lot.

Now there are other people whose identity isn't as tied up and being seen as kind and warm and friendly and that kind of neighbor that says hello to everybody, they may not care, but for me, that really bothers me. So we've got these two bodyguards

that are gonna always want to push away

anything that suggests changing what we're doing. - Okay. - Or growing into being someone else, if it threatens our energy or ego in the world. - So you just explained to me why the people that I love

who I'm worried about don't take better care of themselves. - Okay. - So for example, it takes a lot of energy to lift weights, to eat healthy, to go for a walk, when especially when you haven't.

- Right. - And if you're ego and something that you value is I'm in control with me. - Nobody tells me what to do. - Yes.

- My desire for you to now lift weights 'cause your doctor said so or to start walking

“'cause I think it's important for you to prevent dementia”

or for you to eat healthy 'cause I'm worried about the weight you're putting on. I'm now threatening one of your core values, which is I'm my own person, don't tell me what to do. - Wow, you just nailed it.

And that's called agency. It's a fundamental human need that I'm my own person, don't tell me what to do. - Now can you do that to yourself? 'Cause I often feel like I'm such a,

whether you call it control freak or rebel, that I even rebel against my own attempts to make myself, you know? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like nobody, I'm the world's worst employee

because I hate being told what to do. - Right. - Unless I understand why I need to do it. - Yep. - And even when I try to tell myself what to do.

- Right. - I notice I negotiate with myself and push back and I think you're just explained why. - I think that's right. - I think that's right.

- It's the bodyguard of the ego. Nobody tells Mel Robbins what to do, not even Mel Robbins. (laughs) - Can you show me Dr. Chug this gap

between knowing better but not doing better? - All right, Mel, I'm gonna ask for your help with this. - I'm gonna pull out a little prop, you ready? - Okay, okay, all right, so. What I'm gonna show you here is this poster board

has words written in different color thoughts. You might notice that there's red, there's orange, there's green, pink, blue, and we thought about, yeah, 15 words. And what I want you to do is I'm gonna point to a word

and you just tell me what color it's in. - Okay, all right, Mel, you got it. Go, red, orange, I'm just doing color, right? - Green, pink, blue, green, blue, red, yellow, green. - Russian it.

- Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange. - Oh, you did so well.

- Now, here's what I want to point out to the person listening.

The word is the same as the color. So she's pointing to the first word, the word is red, but it's also red. - Yeah. - When you pointed to the second, the word is orange

and the color of the word is also orange.

“- Yeah, okay, I think you're catching on here now.”

Because I now like you, I'm flipping a chart. Now let me just tell the person listening. Every word is a color, but the actual color that the word is written in is different from the word. So she's about to point to the word green,

but it's actually printed in the color orange. - Exactly, okay, I want to point out before you do it, Mel, that right now what you just did was you were able to narrate to me exactly what we're doing. So that's the knowing, we talked about the different people

and know and do, so you just, you know what we're doing. - Yes, let's see if you can do it. - Okay, this is like a brain scream though. - Oh, sorry, am I reading the word? - I'm telling you the color, you're a telling me the color.

- I don't know, you can do it, but I'm telling you the color, telling you the color of the word.

- Yes. - Okay, even though the word is green. - Okay, red, good, pink. - Yes. - Yellow.

- Oh, blue, orange, blue, red, yes. - Green, yes, orange, yes. - Pink, yes, green, blue, yellow, red. - Okay, my brain, all the so on, like, it got it. - Right, the last call?

- Right, I'm was not faking that by the way. - So Mel, what you just did is called the stoop test. Stoop, like stoop and poop is one thing. - Stoop, yeah, yeah, that's a good way to remember it. - And why did you show us that and what does it have to do

with change? - What you were trying to do is take two things that happen really quickly for you, one of them is detecting color, one of them is reading. So those two effortless activities were no longer

effortless because they conflicted with each other. They contradicted each other. So what I asked you to do in that moment was unlearning. - Whoa. - And what you experience when being asked to do something

“that you have to unlearn and I bet as you were watching”

on YouTube you felt the same thing as I felt this internal friction and resistance. - Exactly.

- And that's always there, whenever I have to do something

that I've either never done before, I don't want to. Whether it's getting off the couch, or putting the phone down or trying something I've never tried before, I feel that same. - That's right, because that's what unlearning feels

like, that's what change feels like, that's what growth feels like. Unlearning is a two-step process. 'Cause first I've got to let go of the thing I already know how to do and then I've got to learn the new thing.

And so when we're asking other people to change, I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for that and that we shouldn't hold people accountable, especially if their actions are hurting us, absolutely. But the empathy that we can have

for what we're asking of them is gonna go a long way in that moment.

“- Because we know how hard it is for us to change,”

but we just assume other people can do it like that. - Totally. - And that if they don't do it like that, they're a jerk. We want grace for our own mistakes and learning curve and we want accountability for everyone else's.

- I got it, so I'm so guilty of that. - Okay, I'm gonna put this visual away. - Super cool. - Thank you for bringing that. - Absolutely.

- So what is the biggest mistake that you make when you know what you should be doing, but you're still not doing it? That we forget that you can't learn from a mistake, you're still defending.

- Wait, what do you mean by that? That we get in a space of trying to prove ourselves rather than trying to improve ourselves. - Well, not to do you hear that. She said we get into a space where we try to prove ourselves

instead of trying to improve ourselves. - Right, oh my gosh, I do that.

I can think of a million examples

where I got very defensive, me too. Proving why this is too hard or why I couldn't follow through tonight or why we get into a space of proving ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves. - And by the way, Mel, the people we're trying to prove

ourselves to are sometimes other people and defending, but sometimes it's ourselves. It's why didn't I get that right? Why didn't I know how to do that? Why am I so bad at this?

Why can't I be as good as so and so at it? Why is it my life like other persons? - Hmm. - How do you get out of that, Traff? One thing I like to say is that when I just say

I study the psychology of good people, it's a little bit of a gacha because my work focuses on helping people let go of being good people. Whatever that means to them.

Go into the gym, being nice to neighbors,

“whatever it is that you need to let go of it”

in order to become better people. What does that mean? 'Cause aren't we supposed to be good people?

- Of course we are and the problem is

as soon as we decide where a good person we're trying to prove it instead of trying to improve towards it. And this game never ends. Life goes on day after day, throwing new challenges, new curve balls at us,

even if you thought you did it today, you crushed it today, tomorrow's a new day. And so getting in a space where we realize this is

We're not trying to prove we've already figured it out. We're trying to improve on an ongoing basis. We're not trying to see ourselves as good people. Especially things that are kind of got some moral charge to it like are you nice to your children?

Are you a good parent? Like those things have a lot of moral charge to them. And we feel like we should just know how to do it. And you should just know how to do it. That's not good enough.

These are skills and skills require practice and improvement. So good people things, we tend to view as like, it's a belief you should have. It's a value you should have. How can you not know how to do that?

Why do you keep interrupting me? If you cared you wouldn't interrupt me.

“That's like you should just know how to do it.”

To prove it to me as opposed to you're trying to get better at it. And it's a skill that you're working on. Well, I can see certainly how I hold this over other people said that if you're not doing the things that I wish you would do, you're not a good person.

But if I turn it on myself first,

because we're going to get to other people. And I think, OK, and I invite you as your listening to really think about what have you held over your own head in judgment, where you believe that if you got to every email today, you're a good person.

If your laundry is done, you're a good person. If your house is clean, you're a good person. If you can both be at work and volunteer at the school and take care of your parents, you're a good person. And you're saying that even trying to quote

be a good person by some standard you've said is a recipe for feeling miserable about yourself. And you want us to switch our mindset to, no, no, no, no. I'm improving all the time. I'm learning all the time.

I'm doing the best I can all the time. Is that kind of more of the switch? That's exactly it.

“So the distinction I make is between being a good person”

and a good-ish person. OK, being a good person is a static. You either are or you're not. Oh.

A good-ish person is someone who's always trying to get better.

So good person is trying to prove their good person. Good-ish person is constantly trying to improve. And so the irony of it is even though good-ish sounds like, OK, we're not as good as good. Good-ish is actually better than good

because you're constantly getting better. And you're giving space for the days where you blow it. And you take ownership for it. So there's a difference between giving space. Like, let's say I say something that hurts someone.

Let's say I use a term that I don't realize has some offensive meaning or history to it. And I get called out on it. The idea here is not to let myself off the hook. Well, you know, they're too sensitive.

Yeah, I'm good-ish. You know, they were a little too sensitive. I'm sorry, you know, you were so offended. The idea is for me to say, OK, there's something I didn't know. I'm going to own that I did some harm there.

That I didn't intend to. Yeah. It's not that I'm a bad person. It's that I didn't know. And now I'm going to learn, take ownership for that,

and do better the next time. So that ownership piece is really important. It's that I'm a good-ish person who keeps trying to get better. And in doing that, I'm going to improve myself. Not just improve myself.

This is such a helpful framework because it really reveals to me anyway. And probably to you is you're listening right now. How hard you are in yourself. Oh, my gosh.

“And what impossible standards you hold yourself to, right?”

And I would love to have you, Dr. Chu, just speak directly to the person who feels weary when you say constantly improving because there's a nuance to what you're saying. You're not saying you got to be constantly pushing yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly trying to do better, constantly grinding it out because you're not doing enough.

Right. It's a different mindset. Yeah. And I'd love to have you put that in context because I'd be willing to bet that the person that's listening and is making time to be with us right now is probably exhausted.

Totally. They're trying very hard. They end the day feeling like they didn't do enough. And as you're starting to have this realization like I am, that wow, I'm probably the hardest person in the world on myself because I'm trying to be a good person.

But I've defined this in a way that's impossible to reach that claim.

So I always have at least 10 things at the end of the day that make me feel like a bad

Right. So do you want us to really think about what that means going from proving that you're good. Right. And then annihilating yourself at the end of the day.

I'm bad. I didn't do this at all. Yeah. Versus this change in your mindset that you're just constantly trying to improve. Exactly.

Exactly.

“Well, I think you just nailed it in what you said.”

So what's exhausting and we're all so exhausted for a lot of reasons right now. So what's particularly exhausting is feeling like a failure. It leads to what psychologists call learned helplessness. If you keep trying, keep trying, keep trying, don't feel like you get anywhere. Eventually, you just learn that you're helpless and you give up.

What we're talking about here is yes, something that takes a little bit of effort, but it's less exhausting because what you're at the end of the day of evaluating is have I grown, not have I succeeded. And that's a very different question. It's what have I learned today, not what did I get right or wrong today?

There's a million things.

I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent, but one of the things that I'm happy that my husband and I implemented early on with our kids is when they would bring home any sort of grade or test or paper from school, we would probably really hard not to react to the grade.

“All we would say is, do you understand what you did?”

Do you understand what you got wrong? Did you try your best? And I think those are actually great questions for us all to ask ourselves at the end of a day, not did I get it right or wrong? It's what did I learn and did I try my best?

That's a beautiful thing, so two questions to ask yourself at the end of every day what did I learn and did I try my best? Yeah. You know, I am really learning a lot. And I find myself constantly reflecting about my own behavior as I'm listening to everything

that you're teaching us and I bet you are too, as you're listening.

And here's what I want to do.

I'm having so many ahaz, I've got so many more questions, but I want to take a quick pause for a moment so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors, but don't you dare go anywhere

“because when we come back, Dr. Chug is going to talk about the difference between pushing”

somebody to change and pulling them, she'll explain the three ways that you get somebody to change because there's only three in a little later, you're going to learn all about something amazing you're going to use with their family called the one to 10 rule. Don't go anywhere, we'll be right back. Welcome back at your friend Mel Robbins and I'm here with Dr. Chug, an award-winning

social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business today, she is teaching you and me. How to deal with people in your life who will not change, how to stop wasting your time in energy and what to do step-by-step instead. So Dr. Chug, here's my next question.

One of the things that we hear from our audience in 194 countries is one of the things that people struggle with the most is this sense of I'm not good enough and when I listen to you and what you're teaching us and that we hold moral standards over ourselves and we judge ourselves every day, let's see if the honest is you're listening right now. Think about how many times you've sent a text and then you say I'm an idiot, I shouldn't

have written that. Think about how many times you walk out of a party and then you judge yourself for what you're wearing. Think about how you leave work at the end of the day and you tell yourself you didn't do enough and yet you didn't even give yourself credit for the hundred emails and slack

messages and zoom meetings that you attended and we're constantly holding this judgment over ourselves so no wonder we don't feel good enough. Right.

Here's what it's also making me realize.

If I'm this judgeee of myself, yeah, I'm now realizing how judgeee in opinionated I am of other people. And if I have a standard for what Mel Robbins needs to do every day to be a good person, can you imagine what the list looks like for what my husband Christopher Robbins needs to do to be a good husband?

Right. If the list is impossibly long that I hold over my own head, I imagine how long that list is for my husband and my kids and the people I work with and the stranger and

So I mean, the question is how do we help others change?

I love how you said help. Yeah. Because I'm trying to force many people that's actually interesting, but whatever it takes. So one of the things we talk about, I mean, I'm all for bribery of my most effective parenting technique to date in the couple of decades has been that I sing to my kids.

They don't.

“How is that effective because I'm a terrible singer and they really don't like it?”

So if I'm saying, do this, do that, nobody's listening. I'm not getting anyone's attention and then I, I start seeing you are my sunshine. I could do it for your audience, but you lose listeners here. You are my sunshine. See, it's all right.

Now I want to pick up my stuff and clean my room. Anything mom, but I don't keep going until they do the thing. Oh my God, I love it. Isn't that good? Why does that work?

It's a little bit of a pole versus a push, right? So a push is saying, go clean your room, a pole is creating the conditions in which you want to go clean your room because they want to leave you. Yeah. So, and this is, this is a big, this is a, it feels more like a repel, honestly.

It might be, yeah, that's fair, it's fair. But the push versus pole distinction is a really important one with the leadership classes I teach that when we're trying to influence others, sometimes we do need to push. And that means we're directing them, we are telling them, we are forcing them. That's a push technique, and we see it in the workplace, we see it in our families.

It has its place, we tend to overuse it, though. And so, pole techniques are more about creating conditions under which people want to do it on their own. Okay. As you said earlier, where I am the boss of me, where I might be asking questions or I might

be being a sounding board for someone else to let them create their own plan, their own

desire and purpose around the thing that I want them to do, that almost always takes

longer, always than push, however, if it works, it lasts longer as well. Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love, change? Realistically, you can model change, you can invite change, you can reward change, but you cannot make anyone change.

“Let me give an example of what I mean by model change, because I think it's an important”

one. The story that may or may not be true, but it's sort of taken on epic, fabled proportions. Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the leaders of the non-violence movement in India in the 1940s. He became seen as the person that people would go to for wisdom.

And in this fabled, that's told about him. He would receive people who would travel by foot hundreds of miles to come to him and ask for his wisdom. And one day this family came to him with their young child and said, Gandhi, gee, we have traveled a long way, we've waited a long time for our turn, and we need you to tell our

son who's withering away, he must eat food and not just sugar. Well, he will eat his sugar, Gandhi listened to them, he heard their request, he nodded with understanding, and then he said, please come back in two weeks. Not the response they were looking for, they had traveled a long way, they had waited a long time, their son is withering away, wait two weeks, why?

But out of reference, they go back home two weeks later, they make the long journey, they wait the long time for their turn, they arrive at his doorstep, they say, now please, Gandhi, gee, will you help us with our son, he's withering away, he's only eating sugar.

“And Gandhi, he said to them, my son, you must stop eating sugar.”

Well, that seems like a bit of a buzz kill after all of that, and they say to him, thank you, thank you. But with all due respect, I couldn't you say that two weeks ago, and he said, because two weeks ago, I was still eating sugar.

So the first step, when we realistically want to help someone change, is to think about what

we can do ourselves to model change. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not trying to add to our exhausted plate, I'm just trying to say in all the work we're doing ourselves, can we make it visible to others that we

So if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, stop snapping at the kids, and they keep snapping, they get defensive.

“What if you talked about the struggles you have sometimes with snapping at the kids?”

What if you mentioned that you noticed when you have a snack in the car before you come in to the house, it helps you take a moment? But if you talked about the things that you've tried that haven't worked and how embarrassed you are by the fact that they haven't worked, that's a super helpful story and example. The second thing that you said that we could do is invite change.

What does that look like? What's the example of inviting change? Inviting means creating the conditions under which someone can do it and not feel self-conscious about it. Right?

Your partner says, doesn't say, but let's say they are going to go ahead and like, alright, so I'm not supposed to snap at the kids, I'm supposed to be even though I'm tired. Maybe what I'll do is try to tell story about my day, or I'll try to be funny and try to say something relatable, whatever. And when they do that, they come off a little awkward, this story goes on too long.

They don't quite get it. The kids are tuning out. If I, in that moment, say, what are you doing? This isn't helping, that's not inviting change, because they just did something. They changed something.

It didn't work, but they tried. So inviting change is allowing the unlearning to work through. Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts. Yes. And having grace, yes, and just kind of really understanding, oh, this is the unlearning

process. Exactly. Exactly. This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like.

They're not going to all of a sudden know how not to snap at the kids. And what does reward look like? You said we could reward change. Absolutely. Depending on the situation, whether you do it publicly or privately, it's in whatever

the love languages in your scenario, telling them you noticed it, you saw it. You appreciate it.

“If you think it works, since you really tell them, I think that really worked.”

I saw a daughter light up when you gave her that moment of attention. Thank you for hearing me. I know that was hard. You must be tired. How do you know when your advice is a complete waste of time?

For example, you have a friend that keeps dating people that disrespect her, you're complaining

about it, or they're complaining about their partner of eight years, but they never act

on your advice. Right? Stop giving advice. Stop giving advice. How do you know when it's time to stop giving advice?

Yeah. So, I like the weight rule. What's the weight rule? Why am I talking? Right?

So, I didn't come up with this. I don't think we know exactly who came up with it. It was popularized by Michael Bungaestaniay and his book The Coaching Habit. The weight rule reminds us that when we're talking, especially if we're talking about

someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them, which means that agency,

that sense of "I am my own boss, we're taking it away." So, the first question is, have they even asked for our advice? Most of us want to help the people we love solve their problems. That doesn't necessarily mean they asked us for help to solve their problems. And another great little rule of thumb I've heard is to ask people when we feel tempted

to solve their problems. This one probably won't work in the workplace, but I think it works really well in families. Do you want to be heard, hugged, or helped? And then my addition to that rule is, or high-fiveed. Herd means they need to vent.

In your example, the partner needs to vent. Hugged means they need to feel loved, helped they need my advice, and they want to, they're asking for it. And the high-five piece that I've added is sometimes a lot of us want people to notice how hard we're trying, how exhausted we are, how well we're doing.

“And especially as women, we're not really given permission to just say that's what we need.”

So we kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs, hoping someone will high-five us. So heard hugged, helped, or high-five.

So, friend is complaining, they're never taking my advice.

The second, let's say they are asking for the advice, and they're not taking it. To name that, say, I know you've asked for my advice.

I'm really flattered by that, and I'm always happy to offer it, but I got to ask you a question.

“When you ask for my advice, do you mean you want to be helped, or do you want to be heard?”

Do you want to be hugged, are you in pain? Do you want to be high-five for the fact that you're a great partner? And you're not getting the attention you want at home? Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by advice? This is so helpful, and I love those four categories because I think when I'm in distress,

or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need. Yeah. And so when somebody asks those four things, I might even surprise myself. When mistake, I've absolutely made, is when somebody comes to me and they're feeling down, I make the mistake of trying to immediately lift them back up.

And me too, oftentimes when people come to you in a moment when they're down, they just want to hug. They want to hug. They don't want the pep talk, they don't want to be told to be strong. They don't want you to fix this, they want to be reassured and comforted.

And so I also, like, the herd hug helped in high five because it stops me from stepping over a line. I like that a lot. Yeah. Absolutely.

The funny thing is when I've asked this question, I mean, I haven't actually counted, but

“I think 90% of the time the answer I receive is heard.”

Dr. Chub, thank you for explaining that way.

You know, I am really learning a lot, and here's what I want to say to you.

If there's someone in your life that you keep thinking about because I keep thinking about the people in my life that I'm trying to change, or if you have somebody in your life who's really hard on themselves and could really benefit from what we're learning today, just copy a link to this episode and share it with them while you're listening to our amazing sponsors.

Stay with me. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and today you and I are learning from Dr. Dolly Chub, who's an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. She's teaching you a me how to deal with people in our lives who will not change.

So Dr. Chub, let's talk about difficult people. Okay.

Let's talk about somebody who is always crossing the line.

I have someone in my life that just has this love of the jab. I don't know if it's conversational style, but I bet is you're reflecting upon difficult people in your life that there are just some people that when they are there, you're on edge. You're just waiting for it.

Waiting for the political mark, you're waiting for the dismiss, you're waiting for them to say the passive aggressive thing. How do you handle somebody that is insulting or difficult? I think a lot of people can relate to what you're describing. And sometimes it's at the level of you're dreading the family gathering because that

uncle is going to jab and often jab down, yes, down. And by the way, they want you to take the bait. Now listen, we do need to be careful because that person may be doing real harm to people in the room and to people out in the world. But what we can do in that moment with that person is rather than giving them more oxygen

by going back and forth, yes. We can take some of the oxygen out how do you take the oxygen out. So he says the thing, you can say, outch or whoa or gosh, you don't look old enough to be that old fashioned. Now realize what I'm not doing is inviting an argument.

What I am doing selling everyone else in the room, that's not okay what we just heard.

“The only thing that I've ever said is something that I once heard Jefferson Fisher say and”

it works like a charm, which is, did you actually mean to say that? Yes, I like that too because what are they going to be like, yes, I mean to sound like a dickhead and like, you know, and no, there's kind of a weird silence thing that happens and then you get up and clear the table. Yeah, but often I just find it's not where the response.

It's another example of your, your not giving them oxygen, but you're also not endorsing it. Let's talk about dealing with somebody who gets really defensive. Okay. The kind of person that is so hard to talk to because the second you try to give feedback

whether it's at work, yeah, or it's to one of your adult siblings, right?

What do you do in that situation?

So this happens all the time. I get defensive when I get feedback. I've noticed other people get defensive when I give them feedback. Sometimes the problem isn't the defensiveness. It's the feedback.

Oh, and so live it. I want them to be the problem. I don't want my feedback to be the problem. Trust me, they are the problem. But let's figure out how we can show them that they're the problem.

So feedback is a word that's often equated with adjectives. What do I mean by adjectives?

I might say to someone, your work isn't polished enough, or it's not thorough enough, polished

and thorough are adjectives. There's a lot of ways to understand what polished it means. They might think that means there's no typos. They might think that means there's like good animation in their slides. They might think that means the way they talk to the customer, they might think that means

that they're wearing certain clothes to work. I'm polished could mean a lot of things. And so when we give feedback that's in adjectives, it's really easy for other people to become defensive because it's easy for them to argue with it. Oh, so how do you give feedback that somebody can't argue with?

The feedback that's hard to argue with and that's actually easier to act on, so if you're looking for a change, you'll actually get the change you want as it focuses on the behavior. So I might say, I've noticed that on the slides, there are inconsistencies in the way we refer to the client's business. On one side, it said they were in the hospitality business and in the other slide, it said

food and beverage. To me, that looks like we haven't gone through and done a thorough proofread. It's not polished enough. So do you see how once I laid out the actual behaviors, it's indisputable? I just, you know, it says hospitality here, it says food and beverage there.

“It's a specific behavior and now I can say that's what I mean by it's not polished enough.”

You know what? I felt, as you were saying that? What's that? I started to feel defensive. Oh, really?

Because, say more, because I was realizing I am guilty of speaking and adjectives, especially with my family, because I get emotionally flooded when I see particularly just things that are a mess. Yeah. And oftentimes when we're giving feedback, we're already in a state where we're annoyed.

Right. And that's how I can see that things could become very vague. I'm going to give you an example. That's true.

“So I think I did a pretty good job on this.”

Okay, so we have a bunk room at our house in Vermont and one of the things that I love more than anything is that our son, Oakley, who's 21, is home from college. And he and his best friend from high school have a window washing and odd job business. It's year four, shout out sparkler boys. And they are employing like 15 kids, like they're cranking it out and they hang out at

our house a lot and I freaking love it. Okay. And I am very clear with them. I'm not your man. I'm not your mother.

You're always welcome here and the fridge is stocked and the door is open and the arms

are open for a hug. But if you turn me into your maid or your mom, you are not going to be welcome here. I work so hard that I do not appreciate coming home from a long day of work and seeing this place looking like a frat house. And so the other day, and they've normally been really, really good.

But the other day, I came home from being gone for eight days. And I walked into the bunk room and it looked like they had been hazing people. Like I was just like, and we all know the bunk bed seems like the most amazing thing in

“the world until you have to make a bunk.”

Oh, right. So normally the old Mel volcano would pick up the phone and call Oakley and be like, whatever, whatever, whatever, and I took a deep breath and I put them on text and I said, hey, guys, just got home. Yeah.

And wanted to share something with you. I took a photo of the beds and the towels on the floor and the wet bathing suits on the couch and I said, does this look like leaving this in the way you found it? Is this representative of what you're capable of in terms of taking care of this house

No, no, no. We can do better.

And I said, great, because after being gone for eight days and working as hard as I do,

walking in here and seeing that you've left this for me, doesn't feel good. Right. No, that's amazing. I don't know how I had the restraint. Yeah.

I can't even show you all the photos. Because once you see it, you're like, oh, my God, we left the house like that. Oh, she was coming home today. Like, if it was like that for seven days, I don't care, but not on the day. Not on the day.

You're not that dumb, right?

“So what you did was another important dimension of feedback is to state your expectation.”

Good feedback at the workplace or at home includes a few elements.

One, people have to know what good looks like what the expectation is. So either they have to know in advance or if they didn't know in advance or you didn't know in advance how to convey it. Once you saw what it wasn't, you were able to convey it. Then they have to know what you saw heard the actual behavior.

That was the photo for you. The photo was the behavior. So you stated the expectation, you gave what you observed in the behavior and then you described the impact it had. And from what I heard in your example, there was no adjective and you didn't need one.

The adjective is the least useful part. Yes. Let me give you another example. Let's say you are having trouble getting your family to help, whether it's help with the laundry or when you walk in the front door, don't just disrobe and drop it all right

at the entry. There are cubbies. If you have a mud room for a reason, you can choose going the cubbies. You know, I'm saying, can you get the laundry moving so that it doesn't sit after you do the wash and then the rot in there and sink like can we get somehow how do you get

your family to help? I use this when I'm teaching conflict resolution and negotiation classes to my MBA students and I use this in my own family and my marriage. It's the one to 10 rule. The question to ask myself and ask someone else, particularly when we disagree on something

or I'm asking something of them, like in your example, asking them to do certain things

“around the home, is on a scale of one to 10 how important”

is this?

10 is the most important.

Sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm asking them to hang the things up, the hanging up is not the 10. It's the me feeling heard is the 10. Me not being expected to do it for them is the 10. Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10, maybe there are people coming over and no way

am I going to be judged because you know I am going to be the one who's judged when someone comes to our home by this is how I maintain a home. Maybe it is a 10 in that moment but it's not always a 10 and I think sometimes the people around us hear everything as a 10 for us and if everything is important nothing is exactly. So you stop and ask yourself one to 10 and what number am I acting on?

Exactly. Yeah and if you in the person in your family or having a discussion about this thing on the ground right now on a one to 10 scale how important is it to them that it be dropped on the floor.

“See I assume it's a one and that's why I'm offended and it's a 10 because it's important”

to me but it's not important to them and if it were important to them they would pick it up. You're seeing what I'm saying and this gets back to the how important is it to them to not listen to you. Because their value might be I'm my own person and you don't tell me what to do.

I've been a college for two years so I'm now an adult and this is my space and when I come from college and I don't feel like this is my space anymore and I don't feel like these are my rules anymore need something to be mine. Oh you're really good and also if I've been working all day in the hot sun washing, disgusting windows and other people's houses and I've had to pull it together and manage

people I'm freaking exhausted and I don't care about your damn house because I'm coming in right and I want to relax for a minute right right. Oh wow I'm arguing about the thing on the floor right but we're completely missing each other maybe because the 10 that's important for me is I need help around here and the 10 that's important for the person you're trying to change are completely different

topics. I mean what we do with my husband and I is if both of us are between one and

life is basically let's move on and if either of us is an eight nine or ten there's

something to be understood here and discussed it's worth our time it's worth my you know effort. I love that. How do you know when you're supporting somebody versus an enabling them. Oh my. This feels like a dream sequence because I feel like this is a central growth area of my life and like the adult children. Yes you know you're the universe is trolling me and I learn so much from your work on this very issue. So let me let me step a little

bit outside of my like expertise as a social psychologist and more into just my lived experience

of seeing how the science of growth works. My definition of hell on earth is watching someone

I love suffer and not being able to do anything about it being helpless. I honestly don't think there's any greater pain in this world. I know that a lot of people have been in this position where in an instant we would take their pain. We would take their suffering. We would take their

“distress but all we can do is bear witness to it and that's what feels like hell.”

Sometimes what we think is supporting other people is us trying to deal with that feeling of hell. We're just trying to lower the pain of it by doing something and while it might make us feel

slightly less helpless it's probably making things worse. Why does it make it worse if you're

providing the financial support or you're giving a place to live or you're doing the things that we want to do because we're trying I think you're right to feel like we're doing everything we can to support this person but actually that soft cushion of support is keeping the person from hitting the edge of their experience and truly having to reckon with the consequences of the decisions that they're making and the patterns that they haven't been unwilling to unlearn yet

“or haven't been able to. Yeah I think the way you described it is exactly my sense of it as well.”

I'm also centering my own needs in that moment. I don't mean to. I love this person so much. That's why this is happening but by me doing the things that make me feel better it's a little harder for me to see what they need. Have you figured out and because I know this is deeply personal for all of us and nobody can actually tell you when is the appropriate time to keep doing an offering support and paying for things and stepping in because that's the thing that makes you feel

like you're doing what you can do and that's the thing that is the only part of this that you can control right and when is it that you say I recognize that this person does not want to change they are not ready to change and I am a participant at this point in propping up the dynamic

“and the only thing I can do now is remove myself from the dynamic so this person has both the”

dignity of their own experience and they also have to feel the consequences of the way they're moving through life right it's so personal and I don't know if there's any kind of sliding scale ruler like self reflection to be able to really wrestle with yourself. I think though just recognizing that we know it's hard for us to grow and then we've talked about having empathy for how hard it is for others to grow sometimes it's hard for us to let others

grow and love that you and two practices Dr. Chug in your classes you call it shoutouts and onits yeah so what is shoutouts and onits and how can I and the person listening apply this absolutely yeah so one of the classes I teach is about how to be a good boss and one of the things in that sort of leadership type of class that we talk a lot about is noticing what people are doing well and expressing it to them now this is leadership I'm talking about how to be a good

boss in the workplace but it applies broadly we are leaders and our families we're leaders and

class is asking for volunteers to shout out a classmate again it's often things that the

“things that they shout out I really appreciated when Mel asked that question because I was thinking”

it too but I was really afraid to ask it and the person who asked the question may not have thought twice about asking it or they may have felt a lot of anxiety about asking it and now that they hear that someone else was also sitting with that question they feel less anxiety that was that question a dumb question you know what I'm going to do I'm going to take a photo those bunk beds when those boys make it and I'm going to put it out of the house and shout out love it job guys

I love it I love it and then a own it is taking ownership for a way which you know you didn't you didn't kind of get it right that day but get it right I mean someone might say listen I want to own it I had my phone out a lot during class today I just had trouble being engaged and I'm really sorry and I know it kind of affects everyone else when someone takes their phone out or I was late today my small group had to get going without me and then spend time catching me up I didn't manage

my time right I'm sorry I love the own it I love the own it and I have to say like in class one thing I was thinking about this coming semester is we get a lot more shout outs than owners which

“makes sense I mean there's a lot more good than the not going on but I think I need to do more”

own it's myself to sort of motivate more own it's from my students as well which is another thing we know about being a good boss is we want to be bringing out the best in others but doing it in a way that shows we're taking accountability from when we're not at our best well one of the things that you've taught us is that when it comes to trying to change other people you can model you can invite and reward and shout outs are really I'm really good at shout outs

I notice all the things going well to a fault okay and if you over compliment people right then you create an inability to your criticism or your feedback right so the own it piece as a parent as a colleague as a friend owning it where you didn't show up where you flubs something where you through your crap in the entry after yelling at everybody else to me that's modeling yeah change and accountability I like that a lot I do too I like that

I that's one of the that's a big thing I'm taking a lot of things from this conversation but I am going to

“pull that and own it I love it I love life as a parent as a friend and I think we may do shout outs”

and own it's here in our meetings because I feel like the muscle of owning it when things are going well is something we can work on nice so thank you for that for the person who's listening you have poured so much into us I mean when I think about what you've taught us about the difference between knowing better and doing better yeah this subtle but serious moment of needing to un-learn behavior before you can change it right oh my gosh the two questions to end every day the tool after tool

after tool that you gave us from pushing to pulling to the one-to-ten rule there was just so much

here if the person listening takes just one action hmm what is the most important thing to do

after you have listened to this episode other than sharing it with everybody you want to change yeah I love it I'm going to let Dr. Chube change him I would say I bet everyone in your audience consider yourself a lifelong learner what would it mean to be a lifelong learner and a lifelong un-learner oh like simply by listening yeah today yeah and investing the time in yourself you learned so much and having that I'm a lifelong learner I need to un-learn some things to continue to

grow and to not prove anything but as you said to be improving right the way that I feel about

myself and the way that I approach life and the way that I connect with other people right amazing

Dr. Chube what are your parting words I would say that hope and energy lies in growth to just lean into that there's all this pressure on us we're so exhausted we're being pulled in every direction and sometimes that makes us feel like there's no more to do I cannot do anymore and I promise you that when we allow ourselves into this space this space of growth of improving rather than

would feel lighter and we would feel a little bit more in control yeah and I feel it after talking

“you do yeah I want to thank you because I learned so much today it was the conversation was not exactly”

how I thought it would be even though we put a tremendous amount of upfront research in to get to the point to have the conversation yes but what you really did for me today and I I bet I'm speaking on behalf of you as well as you're listening as I really reflected on myself I thought that I was going to come in here and get all the tips and tricks to diffuse the jerks out there and manipulate people to change and have everybody stop drain in my

energy and what I realized is I'm actually draining my own energy yeah I'm the one who's holding this impossible standard over myself and then to fulfill my own needs to feel good I'm pressuring everybody else and there's a very different way you can go about this and you made a smarter

“about change the reality of it and you also I think opened up this window of true compassion and”

empathy by helping us understand the dynamics and I also appreciate the tactics so thank you I love you so not this thank you oh this was great thank you for being you and thank you for having me here oh my gosh it's such a pleasure and thank you thank you for making the time to listen to this I hope you found it as fascinating and as helpful I hope you reflected on how hard you are on yourself that good goodish balance that whole distinction between constantly trying to prove that

you got it all done and that your good versus just exhale what if you're just unlearning and learning

and improving and don't forget those two incredible questions I love those did I do my best today

and what did I learn you started asking that and I promise you you're going to learn a lot about yourself and you're going to grow into the person that you are meant to be and in case

“no one else tells you as your friend I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you”

and I believe in your ability to create a better life and the tools that Dr. Chu taught you today will help you create a better life and feel better in your life I am certain of it already I'll see you in the next episode I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play it's question 10 yeah let me get let me get two where we are three say notes I know what it's written okay let's I mean it's so frustrating you'll also learn how to step

week you like that let me do the top one more time the science that's going to help you finally

break free from the endless frustrating cycle oh Jesus are you okay did that hit your head wow oh well that's wow is it a magnet okay there we go okay okay oh here we go now just know today here we go today just go down a little more yeah Jesus I literally have deleted this from my brain okay let me look at my notes here oh and one more thing and no this is not a blooper this is the legal language you know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you

this podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes I'm just your friend I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician professional coach psychotherapist or other qualified professional got it good I'll see you in the next episode