The #1 Relationship Researchers in the World: 50 Years of Marriage & Love Advice in One Conversation

So this year my husband and I are celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary.

I know that's a long time. And people often ask me, Mel,

“"What is the secret to a lasting relationship?"”

And I'll tell you, I joke, I say, "Merry Christopher Robbins." Because the dude is so calm me on the other hand, I am the eruptor of the volcano, the hurricane, and here's a truth. Like every relationship, we have conflict.

We fight, we have frustrations, we irritate each other. We've had our ops, we've had our downs. But let me tell you something. Because of what I just learned in the episode that you're about to listen to with two of the greatest

relationship researchers of all time. I am so excited to go home to Chris tonight and to practice everything that I just learned. And by the way, apologize for a lot of what I saw on myself that was not so great for Chris over the years.

And you're going to leave this episode feeling so excited about love. Excited about what's possible. I cannot wait for you to experience

the magic of Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman

who have spent over 50 years researching the science of relationships. The Gottmans are going to roleplay the four biggest behaviors in every single relationship that drive people apart.

And by roleplay, I mean, they're going to have the arguments. I kid you not. This is so incredible because you're going to see yourself.

“You're going to see your current partner.”

In fact, you may even relive a moment with an X and understand why you're not together anymore. But more importantly, the Gottmans are going to teach you exactly how to handle conflict in a way

that diffuses tension and brings you closer together rather than tearing the relationship apart. And if you're sitting there thinking, well, you know, we don't really fight. I don't need this.

They will tell you avoiding conflict

is why you feel disconnected

and lonely. If you're thinking, well, I'm not really in a relationship right now. I don't really need this. Oh, yeah, you do.

And the reason why you do is you don't want to keep repeating the same mistakes. You're going to feel so empowered. You're going to know yourself better. You're going to know what to avoid

and actually what to do. And just, I mean, the humanity of all of this that you're about to learn and laugh, oh, my God, you're going to tear up.

You're going to feel excited about being in love again. So whether you're dating your single, your married, your divorce

get ready for the gift of the govins. Hey, it's your friend, Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

“It's an honor to spend this time with you”

if you're new or if somebody sent this episode to you. I want to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. Today, in our Boston studios,

we have two world-renowned researchers who have spent 50 years researching what makes relationships thrive and what makes them fall apart.

I'm talking about none other than world-renowned Dr. Julie Schwarz Gottman and her husband, Dr. John Gottman. Over the 50 years that they've been researching love

and relationships, they've published hundreds of academic articles. They've written 52 bestselling books on love, marriage, and conflict.

They run the most famous relationship research lab in the world. They are the founders of the Gottman Institute

which trains clinicians all over the world in the science of fostering and sustaining greater love and health in relationships. They are quite simply.

Every couple's therapist favorite couples therapists. And if you don't have any experience and couples therapy,

well, guess what? You're about to get it for free. From the single greatest researchers in the world,

they literally wrote the book on it. They have flown all the way across the country to be here for you.

And trust me when I tell you, you're about to fall in love with them. So please help me welcome the extraordinary.

Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman to the Mel Robbins podcast. Oh, we're so happy to be here, Mel.

Thank you. Oh, honor's mine. Honor is mine. You know, I would love to have you start

by just thinking about the thousands of couples that you have researched and this extraordinary

body of work that spans 50 years and speak to the person who is listening right now and share what might

if they really

take to heart all of this research

and wisdom and they apply it as soon as they're done listening. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. I think two things I would say

that really change one is that hopefully conflict which is absolutely normal and every relationship

becomes more calm more gentle and more constructive also more compassionate because

the real theme of conflict is to understand the partner better, it's not to tear your partner down.

It's to really get inside their world and understand where they're coming from. So hopefully

that might take place after listening to your beautiful shows and I would say

secondly, maybe they do more to express gratitude. Hmm. Maybe they ask more questions

of their partner to really understand where their partner is at here and now internally.

They may have known

them when they were first dating.

New that world but people evolve and change. So who are they now?

asking questions draw us that out. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would say

that in all the 54 years of studying couples and my friend Bob Levinson

and I started this research way back then. And neither of us had a clue about what makes relationships a work we went

from one disaster to another and if I was going to boil it down to one thing

I have this invention that I keep in my back pocket and it's a little

notebook and I keep it there all time and if Julie

orders the four terrifying words we need to talk. I get out my notebook

very slowly so I can delay my reaction. I get out my pan very slowly

and I open the book up very slowly and then I say okay baby talk to me

what's on your mind what's on your heart and I write down what she's saying and the more defensive

I feel the more I take notes and slower and down

“because I think the one thing we've discovered”

is that

the masters of relationships

the ones who are happy and stay together really seem to have a model that when you partner is upset

about anything the world stops and you listen and this is my way of listening taking notes

and doing it very slowly so I can calm down something over a grant later on I want to just

it's okay okay you know what's adorable about you too and if you're listening

I'm just going to describe it if you're watching this episode you will have already seen it is that you both keep turning

toward one another and smiling and you have this very warm

loving gaze at one another as the other is talking how can you not love this this is beautiful

and you also are like holding hands and there's a there's a physical touch connection which is extremely noticeable

because you don't see it all that often and couples and I wanted to just unpack the genius

of your response

“Dr. Gottman to those four terrifying words”

we need to talk all right which I'm also realizing sometimes I don't give Chris the grace of

preparing him for the fact that I'm about to blast at I'm like a volcano but what I loved because I do think

there is something very intentional about what you just described that as you're imagining Dr. Gottman and he leaned forward

and he reached into his back pocket and he pulled out a notebook that's like the size of a 3x5 card and you opened it up slowly

and then you said you started to write and that is your way of listening but it's so important to also

point out as you're hearing this that you are also managing your reactions in the middle of what could become an argument

or conflict Delay is the way of engaging the frontal lobes instead of

from your amygdala which is terror and defensiveness comes out so when you engage

the brain or the thinking brain then you

be a little less defensive

let me add

“you know one of the things that we found in our research”

is that oftentimes people can be sitting as calmly as John and I are right now having a conflict but one of their heart rates will be over

a hundred beats a minute and they've gone into fight or flight which means blood has left this prefrontal cortex

move back into the motor cortex they cannot think clearly listen clearly

problem-solve and be creative it's impossible because this is offline so by John pulling out that note book

very slowly there's a couple of ways it's wonderful for one it keeps you calm

but keeps you more focused on kind of the cognitive element of what I'm saying

as opposed to who did he did she really say or

or for me what it tells me is that

God she's going to take me seriously

right he's not going to be thinking about okay

“when do I get the oil changed in the car”

I can tell that he's listening because he is taking notes and that's meaningful for me it helps me to feel his presence

and it's a wonderful thing for all of you to do as well I love that and I could imagine

Dr. Gottman reaching hold on let me get my note on my pocket here

you study love in a lab what does that mean for the person

that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships

what do you do? yeah so Julia and I after we first met we designed this

apartment where 130 newlywed couples

just a couple of months after the wedding

was spent 24 hours the camera is rolling no instructions you know they have an opportunity to

eat together clean up together you know read the newspaper watch TV whatever they want to do

and the cameras are just rolling and while they're walking around we're measuring the heart rate

“the measuring all kinds of physiological measures”

every time the urinate we take a sample and measure stress hormones and then we take blood from them next day

and look at the immune system and stress hormones and immune system so we're just kind of watching couples and it turns out

that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab

so the prediction is really 94% accurate and predicting the future so you could

project with 94% accuracy who is going to make it and who wasn't that's right this is like the original reality TV

it sounds like that's right let me add also that this brilliant man over here

created a fantastic system for codifying emotions that means looking at the face looking at the movement to the body

looking at the words the tone of voice the eye gaze and assessing from that

what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak then what's the other individual going to respond with what kind of feeling is that

so we call that spaph specific affect which means emotions specific affect coding and that

in itself tells us a huge amount about the dynamic who's being belligerent

who's being domineering who is being subordinate who's being kind who's trying to make

a repair if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings or using humor

as the way to wine things down humor turns out the people very important right

why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship because we fight all the time we are human beings

you know one of the things male that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is how come

people are mean to each other why is that what's evil what does that even mean what I've really understood

archaeological reading and so on

is that people have aggression they've also got altruism they can be very very kind

but all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us so

what happens with it typically it goes to the person that's closest to us

because that person we assume

is not going to abandon us

is not going to run away they're going to be there to listen to us and so we have

personality differences from our partner lifestyle preference differences from our partner

everybody has those and 69 percent of the issues couple struggle with are perpetual conflicts. They never ever go away. That was a big surprise to us. Yeah. So they just keep coming up, right? Over and over and over again in some different format through the side door. So what do you do with that? Well, people can avoid those, sweep them under the rug. But, you know, they don't have conflict, but they grow more distant typically over time.

Or they can learn to really talk in a way that's come a little bit of emotion, maybe a little more intellectual. You know, trying to solve the problem very fast. We call those validators. And then there's me. I'm a volatile like maybe you are. And we love to explode. We love to be passionate about expressing our emotion. And I'm a conflict, the voider. It's a great combo. So a 30 figure did out over time. We're going to get into these different types. But before we do, I want to just talk a little bit about the research because it's so fascinating.

You've already mentioned that by observing a couple in this apartment love lab, you could predict with 94% accuracy. Right. Whether or not they were going to be together in six years. That's right. And we're going to get into what you were looking at that really was the signal that they're not going to make it.

But there's also interesting research that you have around how the first three minutes of a fight predict everything.

Right. Let's hear about that. And I found that if we had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes, we could predict with almost 90% accuracy. Whether they would divorce or stay together. And if they stayed together how happily married or unhappy married, it would be.

“But then somebody in my lab, civil career, said, "What if we lock off the data from the last three minutes?" And we only had 12 minutes. What's the prediction like with only 12 minutes of data?”

And it was just fine. And she said, "Well, let's lock off another three minutes." And it was just fine. She got down to the first three minutes. And we were still predicting the future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes. Because couples who really are going to wind up divorced or together unhappy, start off the conversation really differently from couples who are, we call the masters of relationship. That beginning is so important. Now I'm like, "Okay, well, what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup versus the beginning that doesn't?" I have an ideal. Let's role play it. Let's do it.

Let's role play that. Sure. All right. So this is predictive of going down. Yeah, well, I want to talk to you about this. I really think that you're really ruining this marriage. It's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive-compulsive.

Wait a minute. Let me finish. I'm not going to let you finish. You're such a slob that, you know, I can't even walk through the bedroom. I am charmingly sloppy.

“But you are really a nut. I mean, you're unique therapy. You really do. I mean, everything has to be perfect for you.”

Everything's going to be perfect. Well, that's right. And I need your help. Just to live with you. I don't need more than that anymore.

All right. I feel like I now know what it's like to be a marriage therapist. What? You ain't seen nothing. That could be worse.

I once had somebody who was so upset, so flooded. And she was all of about four foot 10.

So I tried to calm her down.

She finally sat down on the couch.

And my couch was a beautiful red leather gorgeous couch. When she left, there were scratch marks on the couch. That. That could be her. It was up.

I bet it was so hot. What was happening in that?

“Because I think that we've all experienced those kinds of fights,”

whether it's about the relationship or now you're arguing about, well, you're you're you're giving the kid too much money. And that that and you're overpairing and like, you know, aiming at like what was happening in that fight you just had. So I was describing the problem in terms of

her personality being deficient at something wrong with her. It was all her fault. So you, you, you, that's all he was saying. And of course, I got defensive and I counterattacked. That's a classic form of defensiveness.

You counterattacked. All right. So then I moved in to you, you, you, you. And it was all about character flaws. That's right.

And all I'm doing is trying to give her feedback about what's wrong with those relationships. You can improve because I'm pretty much perfect as far as I can tell. See this. It's a halo.

It's a halo. It's a halo. It's a halo that God gave me.

So I'm always innocent and it's always so far.

That's the way the disaster is. Right. And notice did you see any listening there? No. Zero listening.

Right. That's right. So people were talking over each other and immediately coming up with their review before even hearing the last words of their sentence. And the partner.

Right away persuasion enters. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to persuade her that I'm right and she's wrong. Mm-hmm.

“And I haven't even listened to what her concerns are, right?”

The other thing that happened is the volume. Right. Right. Started getting higher and higher and higher. Right.

Right. Because neither one of you were listening and you're both blaming. And now you're trying to talk over one another. Yeah. And then you both went like, "Huh."

And I found physiologically flooded. Mm-hmm. I think all I need to do is repeat myself louder in order to be more persuasive. That's the way I reason when I'm flooded. Sixty-three times later have I listened?

No. What does a positive argument look like? Okay. Let's roll model that. We can use the same top.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So what's going on? Well, I'm kind of thinking that I can't do anything right.

You know, I'm have tried. I've tried, you know, being neither more tidy, cleaning things up.

You know, it's never good enough for you.

It feels like that. And I can't satisfy you. It's just like, I kind of give up. And what am I supposed to do to make you happy? Oh, God.

That sounds actually like a pretty terrible feeling. Yeah. So you're really frustrated because there's nothing you can do that you feel is good enough. Is that right? Yeah.

Am I making you feel that way? Yeah.

“What am I doing that leads to you feeling that way?”

Because I don't want you to feel that way. I don't want it. Well, you know, like, for example, you asked me to clean up the kitchen. You know, so I cleaned it up. You know, and it doesn't make your standards.

So I don't even know what your standards are. I mean, do you want me to tell you what they are? Probably not. Well, no, that would help. Really would like to know.

Yeah. Oh, God. Because I think I've done it just fine. Okay. And then you're disappointed.

No. I just don't get it. Oh, I see. Well, I tell you what. What would make a huge difference for me?

Right. Is after. Well, let me, let me write this down. Okay. That's a great idea.

So what? Your notebook. Yeah. Hang on a minute. Okay.

Let me just breathe a little bit. Okay. I promise I won't hurt your eyes. Okay. After washing the dishes.

Yeah. It would be wonderful if you would wipe down the counters. Yeah. Just get all those crumbs into the sink and then rinse them down the sink. That's really all I need.

Just to have counters that are clean. That would make a huge difference for me. Okay.

You know, I really can't tell when the counter is clean or not.

Because it's got, you know, you've got this pattern of, you know, on the floor. Yeah. This is true. This is why I chose a counter with brown in it. Yeah.

It just skies all the time. I just wipe it down really well. Just wipe it. Yeah. It's fine.

That's all you have to do. All right. Would you, would you do? Yeah. I'll do that.

Yay. Oh, my God. I love you too. I love you too. You're adorable.

We're okay.

Can you explain what just happened in that conflict?

Yeah. Yeah. Easy. So it started. It started in a perfect way.

Which was John bringing up that he's feeling bad about an interaction of ours.

“But notice he's not saying you're a schmuck and that's why I feel bad.”

He's saying, I feel like I can't do anything right. So, as you in there know, he is having that feeling which pulls on my heart, Mel. He's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like and that feeling. I'm translating into God. He's feeling hopeless.

He's feeling despair. I don't want him to feel that way. But here's the kicker. I want to understand what's making him feel that way. So instead of just responding with, you know, just a comment.

I ask a question to try to understand, tell me more. Tell me more because, you know, it's sort of like if something pretty smelly is bubbling up from the earth. I want to know what's under the earth. You know, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him.

So I ask him a question and that gives me information about, oh, that's what's happening inside. That's something that we can change. It leads to a solution. I love this example and I'm going to tell you why. Personally, no, that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight.

And when I'm volcanoing and he's turtleing when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something it would literally be nothing's ever good for you. Yeah.

“And I think that's a very common way that people then bark at each other and it's very different to say,”

well, nothing's good enough for you. I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you versus what you just taught us, which is instead of accusing nothing, it's you. I feel that no matter what I do, it's never enough. Right.

And you're right. As soon as Chris started saying that to me, I immediately feel like a monster and then I want to know, okay, well, what exactly I'm sorry, and I can see why this works. Sure, right.

You know, if couples fight the first way, yelling at each other, it's never enough for you.

I don't know, I don't know, I don't find store slams going to your course. Is there hope? Sure. Of course. You know, the thing is this, when in our lab, we saw couples who were going down the road of distress,

remember they weren't getting any intervention. They weren't reading anything. They weren't listening to fabulous podcasts like yours. They weren't trying to learn a different manner of relating to one another. So without intervention, they're falling back on old habits on what they learned at the feed of their parents or

caretakers, which didn't work. So, you know, nobody takes relationships 101 in high school. You've got to learn different ways of talking to one another. When somebody says to you, oh, we never write. Mm-hmm. What do you think?

“I think there are probably conflict of lawyers, and I think, oh dear.”

We've got to help this couple surface on Earth. The differences, the things that are irritating annoying, because if you hold them inside, and you don't bring them up after a while, they accumulate. And then you may end up with an eruption, right?

One thing that can happen, we saw in the study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children,

“and they spent less than 10% of the evening in the same room.”

They talked to each other in average of 35 minutes a week, and mostly what they talked about was Erin's, who's going to do what when. So, they wound up really living these parallel lives, where they ignored the relationship, they ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure. They were just, their lives had devolved into this infinite to dualist that they did together, but that was the only contact they had, so they lived life in parallel.

You know, he goes to work, she goes to work, they come home, they're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying, "God, you know, we used to have so much fun and we don't have any anymore. We're just kind of becoming judges. They don't say that to one another." They say roommates. They stay roommates. They avoid conflict.

They avoid saying how lonely they are, how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship. If the person listening is thinking, "Well, that's me," because I can think of periods of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now on their 20s, but when they were little, that was us. That was you. We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store

and that no matter what I do, it's never enough.

“Yeah, you have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship, build in times that you can count on.”

Having your partner's ears. You know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do. And for 27 years, we've gone to the same bed breakfast and took our kayak. And we spend two weeks asking each other three questions. What sucked about last year? What did you hate about last year?

What did you love about last year? And what do you want next year to be like?

So we have that ritual where we know we can connect and it's romantic and it's fun and we kayak and, you know, we hike and, you know, it's always magic.

Let me point out, though, what John is talking about, especially for really busy two career couples, are those rituals of connection. But they don't have to be great big, you know, broadcasts. They can be something so simple. Like, how do you say good morning first thing when you wake up? How do you say good night and you look forward to that? What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in? How about a date night? You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it?

So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, ah, they're right beside me. They're right there, even though they're in a different off. I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment as the research suggests,

“which I think most couples are both probably working because of the reality of how expensive life is.”

And coming and going and that only 35 minutes a week, I mean, that's just, can you imagine?

And I appreciate the small thing, like, could you create something first thing in the morning?

Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night? One of the things that I remember that made a big difference, and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening is since logistics was the reality, and it was also the source of all of our conflict. The one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting. And that doesn't exactly sound like a date night, but it became a consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned and helped us coordinate the logistics at one point.

You were a team. Yes. And to this day, we do it. That's great. And it's just the smallest of things and the other thing that I'll, I have to give a huge shout out to Chris that he does that makes a big different for me is he puts little notes. Just kind of like the notebook you have, he'll rip out a page and just put I love you and I'll open up my eye glass in the middle of the day. And there it is. Pure all open up my wallet. And there it is. And I had no idea that he had done that. And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you, even though I may not be standing next to you.

It's not enough to just make conflict better. You really have to bring, you know, the two souls together in a way that is, it brings joy into the relationship.

“Let me just mention something about your meeting, which is fabulous doing that as a ritual of connection.”

One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting, which often takes place on Sundays. We call it the state of the union.

Right? And so what we suggest is that first you begin with gratitude. You think of something your partner has done that maybe you haven't yet thanked them for.

And you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that. You know, so often we take our partners for granted, right? Especially after years of being together. So all of us, however, still need to be seen. We need to be appreciated. And so starting with that is lovely. And then in the middle piece, maybe there is a complaint that you have, you haven't talked about, or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need to process clear the air about that, trying to understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time.

And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude. I mean, there's there's nothing better than hearing gratitude as a sign that look, you're visible, you're important to me. I see who you are. I love what you do and I want you to know, I recognize you and it's your beautiful.

“And a great question to end the meeting with is, what can I do next week to make you feel loved?”

Is that the best question in the world? I know you guys are so incredible. I don't want to take a break, but I have to hit the pause button so we can give our extraordinary sponsors a little love.

And if you're thinking of a friend, a sister, a brother, anyone who's walking on eggshells at home, or keeps replaying the same fight on a loop and you keep hearing it about it, send them this episode. One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a resource like Dr. Julie and John Gottman. And don't go anywhere because a little later in the show, the Gottmans are going to walk you step by step through how you can bring up something that you're afraid to talk about without it turning into a big fight.

“You do not want to miss this, so stay with me.”

Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins and today you and I are here with Dr. Julie and Dr. John Gottman. They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work. And they're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that will blow up your relationships and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict. I am so excited about the role playing. So let's just jump right back into the next one. I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict.

And there are four horsemen of the apocalypse in your relationship. What are they? Okay.

So the first one is criticism.

Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Like you're so selfish or so lazy. You're so inconsiderate thoughtless whatever. So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner. That's criticism. Secondly is content. And content is the worst one we have. Content is light criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority looking down your nose at your partner. And you're smearing a little bit. You've got a look of disgust, maybe on your face. There's scorn, there's mockery, sometimes sarcasm is content. And content is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying and I'll fine tune it a little bit.

Right, because it is so ferric acid for the immune system. Yeah, it's a big deal. The third courseman is defensiveness.

“We all love defensiveness. Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counterattack as we described or whining.”

And it's a big deal. Oh, I did too clean the kitchen. What do you mean? Okay, I love whining. It's it's great. And then they're stonewalling. And stonewalling is completely shutting down, but it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase. It's shutting down completely for minutes minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time. And what brilliant John here and his colleague Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight.

Their heart rates were often over a hundred beats a minute as they sat there and they started stonewalling and they started stonewalling in order to go inside and try and sue themselves because being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful.

“Makes you sick. So that turtle thing that Chris does, right? Yes, you know, and he's just trying to calm himself down, but to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care.”

Correct. You know, and he's he's doing that. You can't be telling.

I'm telling because he's like not responding. That's right. So it makes it worse. Yes, I can see. Well, the other thing is that Bob and I also as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples who didn't do the four horsemen. But when they talked about the events of the day, there was no connection. And they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day. So it's not that they had a listen negative stuff. They didn't have very much positivity, not very much interest in one another.

I'm a shared humor, affection, and those couples divorce in average of 16 years after the wedding. They last longer, but you know, it's still disastrous.

“I would love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's listening right now? What do you mean by flooding?”

So if somebody's never heard this term, and they're not quite, and you know, I think there's a, it's kind of obvious if you're like the stonewalling or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle or you're a volcano like me. But can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding? And what are the, what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will? So the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense. Sure. Sure.

So first of all, there is no correlation between personality type and flooding. Anybody can get flooded.

Okay. Anybody. First of all. And what does that mean when you use that term flooded? Okay. So what it means is that you are so overwhelmed. By what feels like facing a saber to tiger. So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like one. And because it feels like an attack, right? And it's a dangerous attack. It's threatening. It sets off this fighter flight response. And so men who experience this and get flooded are going to look like this. They give themselves permission to look away, to look away, but a female doesn't typically. And here's why, because you know as women from, you know, this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right, to be sensitive to other feelings.

So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away. So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this.

I just realized my daughter does that when I get like scary, that she, the deer in the headlight. Yes, doesn't know what to do. That's right. Yeah, that was very helpful because you're right.

If, and I know that this is all based on your research that for a lot of men, it's the cross-terms. It's the looking way. It's the walking out of the room. Yeah. We're going to make a drink as you're walking, like following them yelling at them. Yes. Yeah. And it, it feels kind of awful in your body. And it's, it's almost like having a panic attack. The breathing is more shallow and more rapid. And it really feels like there's no way to win here. I mean, you, you just have to escape. Yes, I can see that. And you're escaping your body or the room. That's right. That was super helpful. Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism.

How is criticism defined in the research? And I'd love to have your role play. Sure. A example. And teach us how we can shift out of it. Okay. When we're in the middle of it. Let me just mention that the shifting that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair.

So making a repair during a conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better.

“Okay. So again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flow of your partner. That's what it is. Let me start. Okay. Go ahead. I've been, meaning to talk to you because I think that I have something to teach you.”

Well, you know, I noticed that, you know, you kind of get upset when the house is in some kind of disarray. And I don't have that problem, you know, I can concentrate really well, you know, whatever's going on around me. So I can kind of teach you to focus your mind more because I think your mind is kind of weak, you know, I think your mind is not strong.

You know, I think you have a weak mind and I can help you strengthen your mind, not as much as I am.

What? I don't have a weak mind. What are you talking about? I'm just trying to be helpful to you. You know, I'm trying, I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind. So it's more like my mind. I tell you what, go help the dog. Okay. Not me. Okay. So that's criticism. All right. Got it. Let's show the answer. Don't freeze.

“Yeah. So how do I do that? So I'll make a repair. Okay. Okay. Okay. So why don't you pick up?”

Yeah. You know, like I was saying, you know, I really can help you focus your mind better and be more much more like me. Honey. Yeah. I need to tell you, I'm really feeling defensive right now. You are? I don't want to be defensive, but I feel that way. The way that you're describing me feels to me, like put down. Oh, can you say what you want to say in different words? Well, okay. I think it would be great if even when there were a lot of books around then papers around that you were okay with that you didn't get upset.

Who taught the order? Well, I tell you what. I hear you and I know that I probably come across as an egg sometimes. Yeah. I'm sure I do. I would say that. Yeah. I bet you would.

“But you know, I think I can spend some of the time feeling comfortable with everything scattered around, however, I think you probably know me well enough to understand that when my environment feels chaotic just to me, it may not be to you.”

Right. Yeah. Then I get all discombobulated inside. I feel really disorganized. And so all the papers and so on contribute, unfortunately, to my having that feeling. I wish I wasn't like that, but I am.

She was crazy. Yeah. So I remember. Yeah. Okay. Well, you don't have to sit on plastic. Okay. It's okay.

Yeah. All right. Beautiful. And I saw you repaired by using eye. That's right. I feel that's right. I feel defensive. So when you're getting precise saying, I feel defensive. Instead of going defensive. Right. Right. Or instead of counter attacking. Yes. Or stop criticizing me. Yeah. Exactly. I feel defensive. That's the repair for criticism. Yep. Got it. Beautiful. On that note, how about we take a quick break and let's let our sponsors share a few words with you and don't go anywhere. Coming up.

“The gotmans are going to talk about what you need to start doing to turn toward your partner.”

And the mistakes that you are making in the micro moments that are pushing your partner away. We can fix that. And the gotmans will show you how when we return to stay with me.

Welcome back at your buddy Mel Robbins. And today you are a nine or here with the world's leading experts on relationships, Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gopman. I told you you would fall in love with them. And aren't you in love with them? I know I am. All right. I'm so glad we're back. Let's just jump right back in. Let's move on to contempt. Okay. You want to define that one? Yeah, contempt has this era of superiority. You know, I'm better than you.

“Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like and how it is different than criticism?”

You can't do anything right. Can you? What are you talking about? I mean, you know, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money. You know, you spend too much money on clothes. You know, I, you know, so what? Well, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house and you're ruining the whole thing. You just spend. I'm ruining the whole. Right. Right. How dare you? I mean, you just went out and bought a Porsche for God's sake. And I need that for my work. I, I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work to take it back. I need to take it back. Okay. So that's one example. So it's judgment.

But from a place of superiority. What about the eye rolling? And they like, well, I was thinking of an example that one of our therapists talked about he seen this couple. And she was being contemptuous. And he said, do you think you're better than me? And she said, better than I. Oh, wow. Isn't that a killer correct their grammar? That's a great way to be content. I have a couple of my life that's uncomfortable to be around because as one person's talking, the other one is like rolling their eyes right as they leave the room. They complain about them.

And why is contempt the most harmful? And let's start there. It's really a murder attempt at the person's sense of self. And the Jewish Talmud talks about it as murder. You're destroying the other person's sense of self. And you're saying, you are worthless. And that's the worst attack. It's not just something you do that I don't like, but I don't like you.

“Right. I call it a value. I call it character assassination. That's what it is.”

And do people that are contemptuous actually are they able to recognize it?

Not always. Usually the listener is the one who recognizes it. You know, the other person usually has a pretty heavy sense of entitlement that they deserve to say that.

But let me also add something about why it's so destructive that, you know, a lot of people don't really think about acknowledge, but none of us got parented perfectly, right? None of us got taught with absolute appreciation in school.

And some people like to say that that's immature, or, you know, you're just not a grown up, and I would like to say to them, no, that's wrong. We all have that inside ourselves.

“We don't lose that core of insecurity and the need to be looked at with care, with love, with understanding, to be spoken to with respect, even admiration.”

None of us lose that. We just add layers on top of it as we grow older, but it's still inside there, and it can still get hit if somebody expresses contempt. That makes a lot of sense. So if you're the one that's getting stepped on and demeaned and interrupted and corrected by your partner, how do you repair this? OK, so here's how I would repair it. Let's say he's just been contemptuous.

So, you know, John, there's no way that I can hear what you're saying right now, because I feel so insulted by what you're saying.

I don't know if that's your intention or not, but I feel like shrinking away. I want to just disappear. I don't want that because it really, I feel really hurt by what you're saying. So, I wish you would flip what you just said on its head and tell me what you do want, or you do like rather than this wave of negativity.

I feel like I'm judging you.

“Big toe. Yeah. OK. That's what it looks like. And when you get somebody that says, I am judging you. Now you're like realizing, OK, OK, well, that's OK. So let's say I am, you know, I'm just trying to give you feedback.”

Honey, the effect of the feedback and the way that you're giving it to me pushes me away. It makes me want to run away from you because it hurts so much. Feedback I can hear if you're telling me what you do want, not what you don't. OK. What you don't like. Good point. Amazingly helpful. I love it. I feel insulted. I feel hurt because when it's up happening when it's you that is getting stepped on is you tend to flood. That's right. That's right. Yes. That's right. Yeah, respect as it is as important as affection. Respect is as important as affection. Yeah, especially for women. I think, you know, today women need to feel at their partner values and respects them and as much as they respect anybody.

So one of my new years resolutions was let me try to treat Julie with the kind of respect that I treated my father with and I had to work on that and become self aware of ways in which I was not communicating respect.

“For example, it takes her longer to get ready than it does me. So, you know, I would get in the car and wait for her and while I was in the car, I was saying, why does it take our job?”

You know, by the time she came out to the car, I had worked myself into a frenzy, you know, of anger about this thing. And you know, instead I sat in the car and said, you know, she, there's a lot of really important stuff that she sees that I don't see it all and she needs to get those things done before she feels ready to leave the house. So I think I'll just read my novel and whatever she comes out, you know. This was an issue in our marriage, too. Yeah. Chris would be sitting in the pickup in the driveway running and I'm still putting my makeup on and then I'm running around the house looking for my keys because I forgot that he's driving.

And when I would then get in the car, he would be really frustrated. Yeah. And I'd get an ear full about it. And now I try a little harder and he's usually listening to an audio book when I get to the video truck. It's been running for 11 minutes. I've shaved like four minutes off.

The third horseman of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness. What is defensiveness? And why is it so automatic?

“You know, like it's just like you, you just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead?”

You know, that lawyer that I talked about, he was amazing. Not getting defensive on his wife was criticizing him.

And he really was saying, she's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to help her get to it. You know, but I'm so she's, she's got something she really wants to tell me. That's important. And he had that attitude. Very respectful, you know. And I think that's the attitude you got to take. Instead of saying, I'm innocent, you know, I have no responsibility in this.

I'm pretty much perfect. If there's anybody defective as you, that's really bad attitude because you're not going to listen if you have that attitude.

I would love to hear you guys role play. And if you could do an example where one of you wishes the other one would either lose weight or take a little better care of themselves or, you know, get a trainer or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them.

“You don't understand that, you know, and then the other ones, because I think this is something that is, yes, that's a hot issue.”

Yeah, it's a hot issue. Yeah. Okay. So let's say, let's say you criticize me, you know, for, you know, having a tummy.

But you really worried about myself. It's really done.

All right. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. John, I need to talk to you about something. You know, I know that you love sitting and reading your books, especially your mathematical. Right. Which I can not understand one page of. Yeah. But honey, I'm, you know, you really, really, really should go to the gym more often. You really should. You're only going to the gym like once a month. That's not going to do anything for your body. That's, I mean, you know, your body's starting to get a little kind of flabby or something. I mean, just that belly is going out further and further.

Well, I think I'm fine.

“You think you're fine. Just, yeah. Honey, the thing that I'm worried about, and this is true for both of us, is that we're both getting older, right?”

And, you know, you've read all the newspaper articles about being fit really ad years to your life, being healthy, exercising is one of the best things you can do. I just read this article about it. I was a long distance runner and he had a heart attack while he was running, and he was 40 years old. So I don't think I don't think exercise is such a great thing. But honey, a lot of these athletes are pretty stupid. Well, what they found is that there was a heart defect there. It wasn't the running that caused it. It was the heart defect.

But you don't think you overdid it. No, I don't think so. But if you don't exercise, I'm really afraid that you may suffer a heart attack, right? I mean, I don't want to lose you. I do not want to lose you. And so I'm wondering, how can I support you going to the gym more often, or does that feel too controlling? No, I think what if we went together? Love it. Would you be willing to make the time? Yeah, if I can swim. Sure. I like to swim. Swimming is great. Yeah, swimming is what I haven't been in a long time. You haven't. You want to do it again? Yeah.

Well, yay. All right. That would be terrific. Okay. All right. I'll work on it. Okay. How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them? It's that you're losing interest in them? Yo, okay. That's a good one. Because I think the exercise thing is a big one. Yeah. And I know, you know, like really taking care of yourself. And yes, there's the I'm afraid something that's going to happen, but it's also like I actually am pulling away from you because I'm not proud to be with you, or I am losing my attraction to you. Okay.

I have something I want to talk to you about that is super sensitive. Oh, I know.

I love you so, so, so, so much. That's the year. Yeah. But it is a but yep, here comes the sensitive part.

I don't know exactly what's happening, but as you've been gaining weight, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. My libido is going down. My sexual interest is decline. That sucks. Well, it does because I love you. And I really, really want to express that physically to you. But at the same time, I really, really loved it. When you were working out and I could feel the muscles in your back and your shoulders or arms, it felt really wonderful. So I wrote down, "Lose weight and get more sex." That's a possibility.

“All right. Okay. What do you think? Yeah. Would you like that? Would you like to get more sex?”

Because if about 20 pounds melted away, I bet you're my sexual interest. You're going up and up and up. Great idea. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry, I'm laughing, but I, you two are adorable and, and we have all been in a relationship like that. The fourth horseman that's going to destroy your relationship potentially is stonewalling, right? We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is, okay?

You know, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it.

And we brought men back in and said, "What was going through your mind right there?" So we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through. And they really were saying, "This is hopeless. I just got a, I got to endure this. I got to get through this." And don't say anything because whatever you say, you're going to make it worse. And, you know, I'm just going to go get a beer and watch the game, you know, and not think about this.

“Let me add here. That's what they were thinking. You know, and it was said, you know, it was really like, "I'm overwhelmed, you know, I'm in a war zone."”

You know, and there aren't any shelters. Yeah. Can you give us a example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship? When, you know, the man, or typically the guy, but often, it can be the woman. Can be 15% of the time. It was a woman still mind.

Right. Well, let's, let's do you stonewalling. Okay, okay. So I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills. I mean, the bills have got to be paid. Why are you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table.

This is not a big deal. It is. I don't want to talk about this.

“John, it's a huge deal. You're going to ruin our credit if you don't pay the bills.”

Would you please pay the bills? So what are you doing now? You're pretending I don't exist. You're just blocking me out. Honey, pay the friggin bills.

What's the big deal? God. There. That. That's what it looked like.

Because we've all seen it. Yeah. And I hope you're reinstated. And if you were listening and not watching this episode, as Julie was, you know,

basically telling him what to do and criticizing him,

and then the hoff at the end is contempt. That's right. Right. That exclamation point of view. John crossed your arms and looked down and looked away. And it is this act of like there's nothing to do. I just need to endure this until she shuts up.

Right. And that's the only option here. Yeah. And also, if I say anything, it'll get worse. Yes.

It's bad now, but if I say anything, I'll make it worse. How the heck do you repair something like that if you're the stone waller?

Okay.

“Like can the stone waller, like can you teach a stone waller to repair?”

Because a stone waller does not trust that it's going to get better if I say anything. Okay. Don't forget. Yes. That what goes along with stone walling is a heart rate over a hundred beats a minute.

Oh God. It looks like you're home. Yes. It does. But because John and Bob had their couples whipped up to physiology that that measured heart rate. We saw those heart rates like through the ceiling. Hundred forty hundred fifty and so on.

The second before they started stone walling.

I never ever ever looked at stone walling.

As somebody who's panicked and overwhelmed. Right. I've always seen this as a power play. Yes. That yours denying me.

Attention and you are trying to just block me out as a way to control me. Exactly. And that is wrong. Stone walling is an attempt to self suit. Right.

It's going inside. Okay. She can't touch me when I watch the game. So the game starts in 10 minutes. I'm going to go watch the game. I'll have a beer. I'll come down. Yeah.

So let me tell you what the antidote is.

It's not saying something exactly. The only antidote is to do something to calm your physiology down. Okay. So we've seen antidote. It is.

“You tell your partner you need to take a break.”

That you're flooded. You need to take a break. And you tell your partner when you will come back to continue the conversation. And typically the minimum. A break takes is 20 to 30 minutes. The most would be 24 hours.

Okay. What do you do during the break? You do not think about the fight. Because if you keep thinking about the fight. Oh, I should say this one.

I go back. You'll stay flooded because you're still hooked into the fight. That is elevating your heart rate. You need to do something else like reading a book. Reading a magazine.

Watching TV playing with the puppy even going for a run is fine. Taking a walk. Doing your email.

“Something that takes your mind off the fight.”

Okay. So that those stress hormones can metabolize out of your body. So and especially hard for guys. I would imagine. Because you know, Bob Livingston did a study of startle.

You know, we have a blank gun go off behind somebody. Women feel fear. Men feel a desire to get even. Get angry. Get angry.

Get even with the experiment. You know, anger, rage about having been startled. And so that maintains the physiological arousal. And it was probably adaptive in our, you know, ancestors time. To stay physiologically arousal when you are hunting or protecting the tribe.

But during a conversation with your lover. It's not helpful to stay physiologically aroused. It's counterproductive. Can't listen, right? So it's a challenge for men during the break to really distract themselves and do something entirely different.

But the big breakthrough is to utter the words. I am emotionally shut down or I'm emotionally flutter. I'm flutter. I'm flutter. I'm flutter.

I'm flutter. I need to take a break. And, you know, the good thing about saying all the back in 30 minutes is that a lot of people, when you say I'm going to go take a break and they go. The other person feels rejected.

Things, oh, great.

We're never going to get back to this topic.

We're never going to solve this. We're never going to talk about it. Right. So saying let's come back in a half an hour when I'm calmer. And let's try again.

Makes a huge difference. It makes a lot of sense. Why is, can we just move on?

Flooding? You mean? Oh, can we just move on?

Oh, let's not talk about this.

Let's not talk about this. Oh, God. That's so terrible. Well, the problem in the relationship. When you say, let's just not talk about this anymore.

“It's another way of saying whatever you're thinking isn't important.”

So let's just drop it. You're not important. Hmm. What a message, right? It's a terrible message.

So that's why you don't do it. Yes. That is your absolutely right. And then there's a loss of trust. Right.

Which is really damaging to the relationship. Right. I can't trust you to really keep you promises. Or be there for me. Or be there for me.

Yeah. Let's talk about turning toward each other. Oh, so important. So important. So that's something that that one of my graduate students,

Janice Driver, really noticed in the apartment lab, there'd be the small moments when one person would try to get their partners attention or interest or a conversation or show them something they were reading. And the cameras turned to the other person. And we recorded the response.

And they either responded, you know, or, you know, turn toward. We called it. Or they didn't respond at all, turning away or the respond that irritably, turning against. And what Janice discovered was that when you look back at the couple's who divorced six years

earlier, their average percent of turning toward their partners,

bids for connection was 33 percent.

And the couples who were still married look six years earlier, their average is 86 percent. Wow. Rather than 33 percent. So the small moments were really important. Plus, you also discovered the secret having a sense of humor during conflict

was having a lot of history of turning toward. Building an emotional bank account of connecting. Then people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict. I want to make sure that as you're listening to John say that that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those micro moments.

And obviously what we want to learn to do is turn toward one another. Right. But the thing that a lot of people do is you either turn away. You turn against. Right.

“And I think it's very useful tool to ask yourself,”

am I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day and am I turning away from them? So what turning away means a lot of people misinterpret it. They think it means, oh, you turn your body away. No, it doesn't at all.

It means you completely ignore what they've said. Oh, you ignore it. So let's say I'm reading a book. And John calls to me from the kitchen to me. I ignore it.

I keep reading the book. He says again, honey, do you know where the big fork is? I ignore him.

As if he never said anything.

That's turning away. Hmm. Turning against would be, would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read. Hmm.

That's the hostility. You see, that comes in turning against. Wow. They're really small moments. But the probability that a person will rebid after the partner's turned away is 22%.

“So only 22% of the time did they say, honey, where is the fork?”

Or, you know, listen to this. They kind of crumple a little bit when the partner turns away. Well, of course. Yeah. You know what it reminds me of.

You know what to see a nemeny looks like. You know, it's this little circle of a being in the water in the ocean. That has little tiny fingers. And when it's relaxed, all those fingers are spread out towards the center of this little circle. Yeah.

Like if you saw the movie Finding Nemo, all the babies are in one. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So if you poke that, see a nemeny, gently.

All those fingers pull back. And then very slowly.

Let's say you poke again.

“Let's see a nemeny is not going to stretch out its fingers.”

It's going to hide. That's what happens. Good image. That makes it ton of sense. And I would just love to have you speak directly to the person who's been with us this whole time.

Because there's a lot that you have shared. There are so many tools and frameworks that you can put to use right now. And also things that you can really reflect on in yourself. Because you can't change them. You can use these tools to connect more deeply and strengthen your relationship.

But ultimately, you can't change them. But a lot of what has happened for me with your work is it's made me understand the things that I'm doing. That I need to change that can strengthen the relationship. And the things that I can proactively do differently that build better connection. And so I'd love to have you just speak to the person directly.

And if they take everything to heart, but they want to do one thing right after they finish listening.

What's the most important action to take today?

Well, I would say that when you realize conflict has a goal, which is mutual understanding.

“And what you need to do is postpone persuasion and problem solving.”

Until you can really hear what your partner is saying. What your partner feels, what your partner needs, what your partner's hopes are. And get that notebook out, slowly open it up, slowly get your pen out and take notes and listen. Because when you do that, you realize your partner's not your adversary. Your partners, your ally, at solving a problem together.

You can be a team that together is more powerful and either person individually. And you solve that problem together. So buy a little notebook and a pen and take notes. Slowly get out your pen so you can wait at least two beats before you respond. Well, I cannot wait to listen to this again with my husband Chris.

Maybe it's what we'll do on our to celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary. And I now know what I'm going to get him. I'm going to get him a little notebook. Right? Right. That's a great idea. And you know what I mean? On a pen. On a pen. On a pen.

And one of the other things that I really loved about being with you too is that you reminded me of one of my favorite pieces of advice and truths about relationships that really go the distance and are satisfying for both people.

And I first heard this from Jane Sexton, but it's just this idea that you're my favorite person.

And being in the presence of the two of you and experiencing in person, your warmth towards each other, your fondness towards each other, your kindness towards one another, the fun that you have as you are sitting together. It is the little things that are available and right in front of us. And I am so excited to get home to Christianite and Southern Vermont because I feel rejuvenated in terms of just that energy between you to the warmth.

You know, Helen Fisher taught us that being in love has no shelf life. You can be in love for 35 years, 40 years, 50 years. And we are, you know, and I feel enormous joy in the morning when Julie's in my arms. Wow. Every morning.

Wow. You're going to make me cry. The gotmans, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Mill. Thank you, Mill. Thank you. I just love you too. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And thank you. You know, I told you at the beginning of this episode, you would fall in love with the gotmans and didn't you?

I mean, how could you not? I am so excited for everything that's going to happen in your relationships and in your life,

“based on what you just learned because the truth is you deserve love.”

You deserve connection. You deserve respect and kindness. And now you have research back tools from the world-renowned gotmans to use and to share for the rest of your life. How cool is that? And in case no one else tells you today as your friend,

I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in you.

And the thing that's going to make your life better is stronger and more loving relationships.

“And now you have everything you need to know, do and say,”

to create them. So go do it. All righty.

I'll see you in the very next episode.

I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play.

“There are the founders of the Gotman Institute.”

Which trains call it. And today they have flown to our Boston studios from the West Cup. They have flown all the way across the country to be here for you. One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a resource, like Dr. Julie and John Gottman.

“And don't go anywhere because when we come back because a little later in the show.”

Dr. Gottman, thank you so much for saying that.

And now you have all these incredible respect research back tools from the world-renowned

Gotmans. Ladies and gentlemen. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language.

You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.

Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. [Music] Serious XM podcasts.