Cristina Mittermeier Explains Why Being A Good Photographer Isn't Enough Anymore, E117

And you better pray for the fast. These things are piling up at our doorstep in terrifying ways and perhaps irreversible peace. Meet Christina Metamaya, a marine biologist who picked up a camera and became one of the most influential photographers activists and artists alive.

One single image of hers was seen by two and a half billion people.

I became a photographer because I saw photography as a door opener. And I didn't know anything I didn't even own a camera. The photographs themselves are not going to get it done. If you're photography doesn't have a point of view and if you don't stand on some philosophy, then you're just a craftsman. You're not an artist. Christina coined the phrase "conservation photography" and built a global movement around it.

In this conversation with me, she reveals how any of us can make our art matter.

Not with a better camera, but by finding what we genuinely care about and showing up for it.

I go into a really dark place myself, and I remember sitting right here where I am thinking, "I don't get to be depressed."

“I think we're in for some really tough times. I think we're already seen the beginning of extinction acceleration.”

Sometimes I have to pinch myself and ask you "Do I really know what I'm talking about?" Okay, Christina, welcome to the move podcast. It's a really huge honor and a pleasure to have you on the show. Matt, I've been looking forward to this for such a long time. Thank you for having me. We have been going back and forth. I mean, you're such a busy woman, and I appreciate that so much that you've managed to take the time to sit with me this morning. It's been a few years in the making, but we're finally here, so hopefully I won't waste the opportunity.

I wanted to kind of, before we jump into a bit of your background because there'll be a lot of people watching this into this who know who you are, but we'll jump into that a little bit for those that don't. Before I do, I'd like to kind of start running as it were, and I want to hear from you about what you think is,

what are the most or the most important things that we should be talking about today,

whether it's in the photography world, conservation world, any parts of these worlds that you have involvement in.

“What is a one thing or a few things that we may be not talking enough about?”

I truly appreciate the opportunity to talk about the things that I worry about, that keep me up at night, and it is the lack of awareness from the general public about just how dire the situation is, and then the attack from certain governments on the things that we know, a scientific fact that are treated as beliefs, and optional issues to tackle, and these things are piling up at our doorstep in terrifying ways, and perhaps irreversible ways.

These issues keep me up at night and the ocean and its health is one of the ones that is couple night. Well, the ocean is arguably the foundation of everything else. When you say this dire situation, can you elaborate on how you see this situation that we're currently living at the moment?

“Yeah, I think a lot of people know and perhaps many don't that the ocean is the largest and the most important ecosystem on planet Earth,”

and it provides incredibly necessary ecosystem services like the oxygen we breathe, 50% comes from the ocean. And because they stopped teaching science in primary school a long time ago, people don't understand the carbon cycle, the water cycle, but the ocean, the water itself doesn't produce the oxygen. It is that living organisms in the ocean, tiny creatures like planted, fight-up plankton specifically. And we don't know enough about these creatures, but we know that they're disappearing.

In the last 40 years, we have lost about 1% of our plankton every year. So, about the size of 4 Amazonian rainforest. These microscopic animals and algae and creatures produce 50% of the oxygen we breathe. So, you know, that worries me because nobody can hold their breath for half the time. And the reason that this is happening, of course, is the water is 2-1. The ocean has absorbed about 90% of the excess heat in the atmosphere.

But it can only absorb so much heat before it starts disintegrating, and that's what's happening.

“This year, you'll see in the news the prediction that there's going to be a super El Niño.”

And although El Niño is a natural oscillation of 1 water, and then becomes Leninia called water.

This year, the winds have basically just stopped, and the warm water is sitting on the surface of the Pacific.

And when the water gets that hot, we see very, very tragic consequences. Mass mortality of marine mammals that cannot access food, whales that ingest toxic algae that delumes in these warmer waters. I mean, it's just catastrophic chain of events, and you see them in the news piecemeal, so it's difficult to piece the whole picture together. But when taken into account together, they're terrifying. Yeah, and those effects cause so many ripple effects that we don't see, whether being one of them, a huge more severe weather events and phenomena that you don't only get talked about when it actually hits.

The climate change seems to take a backwards step, because there's more exciting, more dramatic, ridiculous clickbait that happens every day.

“And I think that seems to be one of the biggest problems now, is that we have on one side people seem to not really care about why would anyone care about plankton.”

It doesn't, you know, it's no direct effect to me in my daily life, but obviously if those that have that education might understand the real effects of that. So you have that like a care on one side, and then just distraction on the other. So true, so true. And when you think about news outlets, 80% of the news around the world originates in the United States. And the, and the newest companies are owned by handful of billionaires who are in the business of profiting from keeping us in the state of rage bait and distraction and they monetize the attention we give to these other issues.

So yeah, we are in tough situation, because there's just not enough public awareness about the existential crisis at hand. But I promise you, Matt, that when this war in Iran is over, we still have climate to deal with. It's not going away. There'll be something else, there'll be something else that. Sorry to cut away from the episode from in it, but I wanted to talk to you about something very quickly. Now, I spent a long time thinking that isolation was part of the deal when it came to photography.

That if you were so serious about the work you did it alone, you'd consume enough, watching off, reading off, and eventually it would all cohere into something meaningful. And it sometimes did, but mostly I was just alone with my doubts and no one to push back on them. What changed things for me wasn't a course or a workshop, it was a conversation with someone who was doing the same kind of work and cared about it in exactly the same way I did. The doubts didn't disappear, but they got a little bit smaller and I felt more okay with them. They got named. That's what I'm building with the mood inside us. It's a place where the work is taken seriously, where you can bring your questions, and of course your half finished ideas, and where someone would actually engage with them.

We have the ad-free extended podcast episodes with bonus content, we have monthly masterclasses, Q&A sessions, and of course the weekly book clubs, and direct access to me and my team. Because you don't have to do this alone, so the link is in the show notes, and hopefully I'll see you inside.

“Why should people who are watching and listening to this, listen to us, listen to you, what do you think we can help them understand over the course of the next 45 to 60 minutes?”

You know, I do so much thinking about this. And I don't know if you remember in 2017, I published a photograph of a polar bear that was starving.

Yes, that went very viral. Two and a half billion people around the planet saw the video that Paul Nichlen, my husband, shot on the photographs that I made.

And it taught me so much about how, you know, this whole communications ecosystem works. Because during the first few days when this image was published, it went viral, and we started getting a lot of very positive and heartfelt messages from the public. Thinking out for making people aware. But then things shifted. And of course you always get the people that are kind of ignorant and they wanted to know why we didn't take the polar bear to the vet or why we didn't feed it.

But then something really dark started happening.

“Experts started popping up in news outlets with opinions that are just not true. You know, polar bears are not in danger. There's never been more polar bears than now.”

These pseudo experts just basically calling us fake news and criticizing us and discrediting us.

And I am, I'm assigned this by training. And so I thought, you know, where is this coming from? And I started digging and I followed the experts all the way back to where their funding comes from. Because if you follow the money, you usually find the truth. Well, of course, you know, think tanks that are funded by the Heritage Foundation, which of course is funded by the Koch brothers, which of course is funded by fossil fuel interests. And this starts telling you how well organized they are in maintaining the narrative for fossil fuels. Now we call it beautiful clean coal and all of these things that of course put a lot of money in the pockets of a handful of people.

But are destroying the planet for the rest of us and are getting in the way of just an equitable transition to better forms of energy, which are already at hand.

You know, we already have the science, we already have the technology and the people that want to continue profiting from fossil fuels. They just have a very large PR machine maintaining their side of the story.

“Is it that simple? I mean, before before, before we answer that actually, can you just give it a little context around that video?”

Because I think it was such a seminal moment in in your careers of photographer as well as kind of this inflection point with your marine biology background and then moving into kind of more of a public persona brand and then you're getting all of this. Yeah, praise on one side, Chris is on the other side, but can you explain why then might have been Chris is about because just about the actual incident and what the polar bear was actually. The context surrounding that situation. Well, the polar bear we founded in the Canadian Arctic and Paul my husband is a polar bear biologist, so he found the bear and he knew immediately that it was dying.

And we suspected that it was probably shot by a hunter that failed to kill it, but it injured it out enough that it couldn't feed itself.

When we first published the photograph, we said, this is what a starving polar bear looks like.

So when we say that polar bears are going to go extinct in the next 50 years, as the Arctic continues to disintegrate and melt, you know, this is what we want people to keep in mind. This is what it looks like. It's a painful creature. Beth, you know, it's horrible to see. The National Geographic called and asked if they could repost the video and we agreed and they wanted to repost it in its original form. So we sent the whole all the assets to National Geographic with spent a parent organization for many years.

And somebody had the brilliant idea at Nadia to posted with a new title and they put it out to the world to the millions of followers saying, this is the face of climate change. It was not us, it was not you. And of course, that sparked a lot of controversy and that was not our intention.

“But I'll tell you what, Matt, if I had to do it all over again, I would because I think for a brief moment that forced people to stop and think about whatever is coming for polar bears, it's going to come for us to.”

And this is beautifully emblematic of the power of photography as well. So, you know, we haven't even touched up on that yet because you're such a multi-faceted, multi-talented human being, but photography is, is it your core, tell me, you know, coming off the back of your book of hope last year. Tell me where photography fits into this and how it's maybe evolved since times like 2017 where you've potentially questioned how you use your photography in terms of shock versus beauty maybe. You know, that that position comes from way before the polar bear photograph. When I became a photographer back in the 1990s, oh my god, I remember understanding that there was this distinction.

You can focus on the photography like war photographers to the pain, the horror, the devastation, but people don't like being confronted with that kind of imagery all the time and they eventually reject. And then I heard a tech tech talk where somebody, you know, was talking about the great speeches of humanity and they talked about talking to Mark Luther King and how he painted a picture of the society he wanted to create and inhabit.

Basically what I'm saying is Martin Luther King didn't start the speech by saying I have a nightmare.

She told us what the dream was and that idea of the manifest destiny crystallized for me.

“Because I think it's true, you know, people don't go to war because they like killing each other because we aspire to peace, we want to make it better.”

Hope, what does that really mean to you then? This word, hope.

I think it's a choice to remain hopeful. It's always easy to slide into the spare and I see it happening around me all the time and for some people it leads, you know, to really dark places, even suicide. And for others it just leads to apathy and the, you know, that this engagement with any issue. Oh, I don't want to look at the news. Oh, I don't care about politics. Oh, I don't vote, you know, and for me, last year when the president of the United States got reelected. And I immediately understood that the United States was going to be leaving the Paris Agreement was going to be abandoning all of its commitments to fund conservation around the world.

“I go into a really dark place myself and I remember sitting right here where I am thinking, you know, I don't get to be the press.”

I don't get to just sit this out and feel sorry for myself. My job is to inspire people and to share what I know and to do it in a way that is positive and solutions oriented. And I thought, you know, hope is like a life raft that you hold on to when things get really dark. And when you think about people who have survived a Holocaust or, you know, serious injury or disease or you name and incarceration. It is the people who cling on to hope that survive the ones that give up and surrender to apathy and despair, you know, they don't.

Yeah, it's it's easy to throw the word hope around though, isn't it? And kind of not hide behind it, but yeah, some hope for and I always think about this word hope and it's just, you know, semantics at the end of the day depends what you what action you put behind it.

But, you know, hope is all I always think about hoping the opposite of fear and if we can control fear and conquer fear, then what real depth does this thing of hope have.

But, you know, when you when you look at people like yourself and tie a lot of the things together with photographers and other, you know, incredible activists and conservationists and people in scientists so many people out there doing such amazing things that we never hear about right because it's not it's not click baiti enough. Tell me, like how you actually inspire past the the image and a book is great making a book of hope, but then, you know, how do you that that's really where the work begins right is the the the press of the shots are really where the work begins. How do we actually inspire people past that.

“I love that you actually framed it this way because I remember thinking so where is hope, you know, where do you find it and then it became so crystal clear for me.”

I hope lives in the works and deeds of the people in the front lines that are not giving up and the front lines are, you know, are the policy work, the science work, the activism, the people cleaning up trash on on the beaches and a lot of those people are a lot younger than we are met. They're the age of my children and I think to myself, you know, these are children and we, the adults, you know, don't get to sit this out. This is an adult problem and you know, I don't know if I'm going to solve it, but I'm going to show up and I'm just a photographer, but if I can bring whatever skills and influence and network I have to make sure that the people around me know that I care and that I'm showing up maybe others will too.

And that's all it takes, you know, I recently watched the documentary that I had a lot called the Indlorious Amateurs, the Glorious Amateurs. It's the story of the people during World War II that without any expertise in military, were called upon to serve when all the boys were dying in Normandy and things were really, you know, look like they were not going to be. They were not going to be succeeding against the Nazis. The United States creating the created an office called the OSST Office of Special Services and they conscripted regular people, songwriters, accountants, ballerinas, to serve and to do things for which they had no training or expertise.

I see a lot of people just kind of sitting it out saying, oh, I'm not a photographer, I'm not a marine biologist, I don't know how to contribute.

“I already recycle and I'm like, really, is that all you bring to the table?”

Everybody has a little more that they can do beyond the minimum necessary. And this is what's going to be required of all of us.

My mum always said this to me, bless her. If everyone did their part, we wouldn't have any of these issues, we really wouldn't.

I mean, there's one thing on the financial side of things where ten billion dollars could solve a lot of issues right now, if not all of them. But there's another thing like everyone actually just doing their part rather than whatever they might be doing, playing video games or scrolling on their social feeds. And stepping up to do things that you're all comfortable doing because you're not an expert. I think about Jan T. Tuan, Bernie Court, you know, the head of the Coral Gardeners. When he was 16 years old, a child, he noticed that the reefs around his island home of Maria were bleached.

He asked around what's happening, none of the adults were doing anything about it. So he stepped up to become a glorious amateur.

He googled how to restore the reef. He conscripted all of his high school classmates to create an organization that today is one of the most important and influential.

“And T. Tuan, at 26, is the youngest CEO in the ocean space. He operates in three countries. He's restoring the reef against all odds. And I think, you know, he's a child.”

Can we adults not find ways that we can be glorious amateurs to? Yeah, yeah, we were to wrapped up in our own world, I guess. But tell me more about the photography side of things. Do we really believe? I know we do, but how actually can photography change things? Maybe not in a direct sense, but you know, we throw in social media, you know, the education behind it, just the skill set and the aesthetics of any image to draw people in.

All of these layers that can work behind photography. But for you specifically and for us who maybe wanting to help and know how to do photography and love doing photography. Or this is maybe something I can really invest in that not only do I enjoy, but maybe I can make my little small difference through photography. How can, how have you been able to do it? Has it worked? And how can we kind of go down a similar path? So there's so many answers to that question.

And the first one is photography is a really powerful medium.

When, when I say to you, Napon Vietnam, you know exactly which photograph I'm talking about, because it's an iconic image when I say it. But that was when photography was not homogenized, right? Now we live in an oversaturated world when it comes to image. So it is ever more difficult to create those iconic images that become crystallized in the collected consciousness of humanity photographs like that polar bear. So difficult to make. So that's one aspiration. But the second one is, you know, the way that the photographer shows up to do the work. And that was one of the reasons I created the concept of conservation photography.

And the international League of Conservation photographers. It was just a new banner that people could carry for their work. And it's a distinction between nature photography that's just done for the love of nature, you know, or whatever, into one of activism purpose to say, "My photography will serve conservation." And that service orientation takes many shapes and forms.

I volunteer my photography to this day to many organizations that I believe in. Because photography is a way of bringing people into the conversation. And organizations that are working in conservation, especially, not necessarily have the budgets to hire the top photographers. So how do we contribute our work without expecting to be paid for being heroes? You know, I donate thousands of my photographs to even the wealthy organizations.

They need this photographs. So that's one way. And the other way is the photographer as an important character and the story. In the days of national geographic, when we were shooting for the magazine, the whole mandate was the photographer has to disappear.

“You have to be a fly in the wall and just photograph without inserting yourself.”

But for conservation, I feel that the photographer plays a really important role.

Somebody that will not let go of an issue and will use photography to galvanize action. A way to do that, of course, is to put the images in front of the people that make decisions. Another way of doing it is by creating public pressure and public support. But the key element and a lot of photographers miss this is it's a lot of hard work to become the champion for an issue or a cause. Photography, photographs themselves are not going to get it done.

“You need to insert yourself and become a champion.”

And that's real work.

I always talk about this with other kind of budding photographers.

And it's so clear to me these days that it's more important than ever. We find something we care about as humans. And then we think about the photography side of it. So many people think about cameras, photography, follows, likes, exposure, all that kind of stuff. And then, oh, where do I actually point the camera now?

So I would go, you need to know yourself really well first.

“You need to be a matured kid who can find something that you really care about.”

And then just use the camera as a tool to put it out there in the world and to express your ambition and your ambassador ship of that thing that you care about. And there's, it's a very subtle difference, but it makes such a huge change in a huge difference in people's messages, how it's received. And like I said, you can really understand the genuine nature behind a photographer's intent, whatever they're putting out there with their camera and the images. And that makes such a big difference as viewers and as readers and as people who were either be interested within two seconds of seeing image,

or not interested within two seconds of being an image. And again, there's a very, very small difference in output, but there's input, but there's a huge difference in output. And that really interests me as to why you chose photography and that respect so many years ago and having your background in marine biology. Can you tell us how that evolved with the camera and the challenges that you had within that? You know, I was such a young person and I talked to a lot of young photographers today that you know, feel the way I did so many years ago.

Don't know where to go with the photographer. Well, it was, I wasn't even a photographer.

My impetus, the whole time has always been, there's something really bad happening to our environment.

“How do I spread a sense of urgency among others to care and to do something about?”

As a 17 year old in university, I was already seeing things that to me were very worrisome, like bottom trolling. And people are just so unaware. So I thought as a 20 year old, maybe if I become a scientist and I contribute to scientific literature, maybe I will get the credibility and the microphone I want to help inform and help push for more conservation. So I did published a bunch of scientific papers and then I realized that they have such limited distribution and the scientific land which is so difficult for people to engage within an emotional level.

And it's not like I was looking for a different way of communicating. You know, when you're 20 years old, you're showing up to a job, hoping to make a living and pay your rent and you have a lot of priorities. And that's where I was living in Mexico City, commuting every day, a hundred kilometers to my parents' house because I couldn't afford rent. And just trying to figure out how do I create a career with something that I'm passionate about and working for conservation was not it.

My first check that I ever made was $800 a month. You know, it's barely enough to live.

So I was in Mexico City and sharing office space with a photographer. I was not looking for photography, but I noticed that he was writing a book about conservation and using his photographs to illustrate. And I was lucky because he didn't speak English, so he asked me for help with the translations and the captions and so I did. And when the book was launched was a trilogy of books about Mexican biodiversity and indigenous people. There was an event and you know, people came to reception and everybody's looking at the book.

And I noticed nobody's reading my brilliant text, my translations, but everybody was looking at the photographs and something really interesting happened. There's people felt intimidated and, you know, the lack of expertise to ask questions about the science. Everybody felt really comfortable asking questions about the photography.

And I thought, wow, you know, this is an incredible way of engaging people.

You know, people might not be part of this issue into a dialogue and that is step number one. I became a photographer because I saw photography as a door opener and I didn't know anything I didn't even own a camera. So just became a glorious amateur, I guess. Glorious amateur, I love that phrase. Now, there comes a point in every photographer's journey where gear or technique stops being the question, you've learned your camera, you can read light, you know how to edit, how to produce, what a good frame looks like, and you can probably make one on demand quite easily.

But something is still missing, the work feels good, competent, maybe even pretty, but it doesn't quite feel completely yours. It doesn't really say anything that couldn't have been said by someone else on Instagram with the same camera. That's the moment most people get stuck, not at the beginning, but right here, right there, somewhere in the middle of it, in the midst of it, where you have all the tools, but not really any of the language. And the reason it's so hard to move past is because nobody can teach you your voice in a tutorial or a silly little YouTube video.

Because it's not accepting on the dial, it has to be drawn out of you slowly by methods and introspections that actually allow you to look at yourself and your work. And challenge you with the harder questions, all in order to draw out your unique and photographic voice.

“That's what my voice alchemy mentorship program is.”

It's an online container for photographers who really already know how to use their camera, but want to use it to say something that's more meaningful and that actually matters to them. Personalized strategy on its feedback and the kind of work that builds their body, a voice, and a brand that actually gets noticed.

It's not a course, it's just the thing I always wished I had had, and it's the thing I now spend most of my days doing.

I think it's in the show notes, so if something in this is calling you hit the link and we'll see where you're at. So when you, I mean, this was what 90s. 90, 90, 90, 60. Yeah.

“What challenges or setbacks do you have during that time?”

And a second question to that is, would you say that we face the same issues? 30 years later in terms of how we communicate those people obviously don't want to read scientific papers less so these days.

But they also images becoming less and less, I guess, fungible or powerful in that respect.

And so now how do we capture people's attention even more? So what kind of challenges do you have initially and moving forward to today? Similar challenges that you experienced or how do we adapt with today's world? I love that question because, yeah, I mean, back in the 1990s, we were still shooting photographs with film. So the challenges where, you know, it's expensive, you only get 24 frames per roll film.

You know, there were challenges, of course, I was a mother of two children of my own and I was racing at third one from my husband's. But I promise you, Matt, that if you only focus on the challenges, you will keep hitting a wall because manifest destiny is a very powerful thing. So instead, you know, I look at the challenges and then I say, for every problem, I'm going to write five solutions and I'm going to focus on the solutions.

“And back in the day, for me, the challenges were like, how do you get your work published?”

If you want to be a National Geographic photographer, how do you do it? Well, you know, you start writing the solutions and meeting the right people and going through the right pathways and understanding that becoming a famous photographer is a lifelong endeavor that requires not just talent but commitment and, you know, the network of people that you need. So for me, those were the challenges and I found the way. Today, the challenges are different, so we need to think about different solutions. And I think one of the solutions that has emerged is that it's not just photography, it's storytelling and storytelling is such a powerful thing.

You know, I look at the top storyteller in the world and that is Donald Trump. He just tells stories. He stories are not always true, but they're always entertaining and boy those he keep people entertained and he keeps a hold on the news daily 24 hours a day with stories.

What it means, the curiosity sparked in you, the wonder, it brings people in. So today is not about being a good photographer, it's about about being a good storyteller.

“I'm not going to ask you how would be good storytellers. I think we could go off hours and hours about that.”

I did hear you read this or I heard you on an interview talk about this and this word membrane that you talked about as a photographer was really fascinating for me. It's such a really clear way of describing your role as a photographer, so instead of being a messenger maybe that kind of more of the explicit storytelling. Hey listen to me, this is what I need to tell you more of a membrane to let the story pass through.

Am I correct in that kind of assessment and can you elaborate on what you really mean by that?

Yeah, I am a biologist after all, so when I was thinking about the role of the photographer and I you see it all the time when photographers insert their own ego into the photographs, you can see it immediately.

“And it becomes about the photographers' ego and you know it works for some, but for me I'm good friends with a photographer David Yarrow.”

I don't agree with I don't agree with a lot of things that David does, but he you know he cares about conservation and he donates a lot of money to conservation. And he's been really good to me in the art world introducing me to people and helping me understand how it works, but when you see David's photographs you see his ego all over it, you know it's all about David. And he tells a great story about the photographs and he doesn't hide the way he makes those photographs, so what he's selling is David Yarrow and people buy it, people love it, you know, I totally understand what he does.

And he is different because it's not about Christina Metermyrs about this thing that I'm photographing that I really care about and how do you make yourself a semi permeable membrane almost like the skin of a cell that allows a conversation to happen between the thing that you're photographing that is the subject and the viewer not you as a photographer but the person that's looking at the photograph.

And you can analyse that conversation through your photographs, then you might achieve some spark of wonder curiosity action, you know whatever it is.

What do you think then current Christina still may get lost kind of lost on the way or not be able to pass through that membrane do you think you still kind of struggle with. Really getting messages across or being in the the right rooms at the right places. You have still have those types of challenges where things just get lost in that membrane or they actually permeate it. Absolutely, we still live in a patriarchy where women have a really difficult time getting credibility and getting our voices heard and followed.

So that's a huge challenge but for me the bigger challenges just I'm a human and planet earth I'm 60 years old and the adventure photography that I used to easily do is not going to be available to me much longer.

“So I have achieved the certain status that opens doors for me to speak to important people how can I maintain that status and I think for me it's by becoming an artist or recognizable artist.”

And everything I do is about maintaining a profile that allows me to have conversations like this one night. I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to be of being heard by people who may not know any of what I'm talking about and like epic curiosity to ask. Tell me more. Yeah or I hope that's the whole reason for this podcast really and we don't necessarily do many episodes where we focus so much on conservation photography or the more activists side of photography. But you know either way we want to educate and inspire and so yeah it's it's it's an honor to have you on and being the position but for those.

For those watching this who may not know who you are and we look at your maybe social media profile as well as everything else you do you know such a busy quote unquote successful artist scientist activist.

Good but I mean there's lots of good lots of bad but when you have 1.6 million followers you have this platform that social media has given you.

“Looking as you know from from this planet earth where we're looking at someone like Christina who's got you know this huge platform is able to.”

To have influence in in what you want to influence as a young photographer as a beginner photographer and amateur wants to have as big an impact how much attention do we put into should we put into social media. I think social media was such a hope in year early to 20, 20, 20, 10, 20, 12 and I remember when I first joined Instagram and I didn't know what it was but my assistant posted a photograph she created my account I was like I have no time for this stuff. She posted the photograph and then immediately we started getting comments about it and I remember thinking wow you can actually have a conversation with some another human without the intervention of an editor as you know those of us who used to work in the magazine world.

“If you go shoot a story you have to wait two years for it to be published and then you don't even know what the public thinks or says and yeah I think I think Matt Zuckerberg.”

Because in for a look right we were baited into believing that social media was going to be this amazing conversation platform with all humanity and we all posted our photographs there for free excited to share our work and then they hit us with the robots that are using our work to train AI and you know the monetization of the social media platforms and now it's all about talking hit selling you shit all day long.

And so if I could Matt I would completely leave social media today I just did because the algorithm really punishes certain types of conversations.

So anytime it's about equity or about empowerment of women or empowerment there or any of those climate change you know you get throttled the algorithm is not built to promote or reward those conversations.

“Do you know how the algorithm works Elon Musk gave it away the other day.”

I really I'd love to hear because we've all been guessing for the last decade so it's a it's a reward system right so you get half a point for a like or comment you get know you get half a point for a like you get one point for a comment but if you elicit a back and forth argument where people are you know interacting with each other if we rage bait you get 75 points so those conversations are you know they go to the top.

And if you're just posting pretty pictures you know you might get a handful of likes and comments but they're not going to bring you up to the top.

So of course I keep posting of course I keep trying to educate I just am very aware that I don't have the reach that I used to. So for every problem you write five solutions and for me is going back to the drawing board of we need to find the alternative distribution channels these days if you really want to have an impact you better. Be a good storyteller, but you also be better be a good writer a good public speaker you better become an expert in the subject so you can talk to traditional media and so I have gone back to talking to newspapers talking to my back to magazines because that's where the audiences are.

And this this challenge of distribution where do we publish not just our work but our concerns you know we keep. Hitting the wall against these billionaires who on the distribution. Yeah well let's let's talk a little bit about these billionaires because you've presented to I mean you you met you know so many and and I'd love to hear how you kind of approach that but one word you I've also heard you talk about is enoughness. When you stand in front of an audience of whether it's me and other kind of you know normal Westerners and you talk about indigenous communities and we have no idea about kind of who's at the forefront of the impact of these changes.

What they doing about it, how can they and their ways of life educate us and you try and like translate that into a story or a message in front of billionaires had it had you even reconciled this huge gap that you're trying to to close was one side of it is kind of the impact in the example and the other side of these rich people was essentially the solution.

I was walking my dogs this morning math and this is what I was thinking I've been thinking a lot about president Claudia Shainba in Mexico and she is a true socialist. She believes that the social good and lifting people are poverty and empowering women is a huge part of the solution and who doesn't believe that you know who wants to see other people suffer and yet.

“You know teach us that you have to be an individual first and who cares about community it's all about you and your own success and it teaches you that that success is a bottomless pit and I don't think that that's how capitalism started mat.”

I think capitalism was a different idea that was supposed to benefit not just the stakeholders of a company but also the client base of a company the community where that company lived.

In little by little that concept morphed into now you know all the capital in the world it's in the hands of a handful of people and it doesn't benefit anybody and hey they don't even need a word for it's anymore you can have robots now so I was asking myself am I a socialist do I believe in the same things that Claudia Shainba believes. It's a tough conversation because she has to pass the middle class in order to live the poor out of poverty and the middle class in Mexico is not happy not happy at all so I don't know if that works.

And of course you know we've seen this play before in other places where you had a socialist president like a yende in Chile in the 1970s and the United States interfered with his government and overthrew him to put Pinochet a military.

My goodness hundreds of thousands of Chileans were murdered and disappeared and tortured.

You know it's happening all over again and people forget because this capitalist idea of I need to make more money. You know and I need to look after mine and my own and you know so I don't know how we escape but I'll say two things. I've been reading the work of an economist her name is Dr. Kate Roberts and she talks about don't economics and this really resonated with me because the whole economy all of this construct of capitalism and even money.

“It's a human construct it's a human story and we we have believed it right but we can also challenge it and that's what Dr. Rotbert is doing with donor economics.”

She's saying if you imagine humanity as a donut where we can only live within the bread right that's the very narrow range of conditions for humanity to thrive.

So on the inside of the donut you fall into what's not socially ideal right we want everybody to have a political voice but also access to fresh water and safety and we want women to be empowered. We want all of these social things that are good for humanity but on the outside of the donut you have the ecological imperative you know these are not negotiable because mother nature doesn't care so. We need to have a stable climate we need to have available fresh water and soil and we cannot live in a toxic planet that's poison and so she says you know we need to build an economy that brings us back to the donut which is the sweet spot for humanity.

And some places city of Amsterdam is already enacting donut economics and it's working. So I think we need to lock up those ideas and challenge these concepts that we just take as in movable capitalism and these billions you know it's not it's just a story.

“When I talk to these rich people of course they love their money but you have to think you know how many yachts how many private planes how much wealth for you know a thousand future generations do you need.”

When you have to live in a planet we're so many are suffering where we're seeing the extension of the natural capital that keeps us alive. And they don't listen to me you know people in those echelons I get to have dinners with them and they they've insulated themselves from these truths. I mean it is such a generic question but I asked this to myself almost every day as well as my wife and friend you know I just don't I can't understand I just can't understand any of it and not that I'm above anyone and I definitely don't have my share together just like every other human.

But why do these rich people I mean with with at the moment we're talking about the super rich you know these people you people understand what a billion dollars is I think a lot of people watching this this don't actually understand how much a billion dollars is let alone a trillion where Elon is about to get to right.

I mean when you when you think about kind of the numbers that are involved I just don't people say what's human nature and this capitalism and and I just don't understand why people don't care about.

Simple issues some of which we're talking about today. They're not simple they're complex but why doesn't. The why don't these people care about. A turtle ingesting plastic and dying in the ocean. But you say that to them they think you're a snowflake and a pussy right it's like why this where does this you know a lot of it is ego a lot of it is this machoism that we've kind of bred through capitalism and it's the macho the alpha male and the machoism you go out and you just you know that's what America's all about and it like you said this was just constructed.

“You know arbitrarily by humans as the best thing to do in the best thing for quote quote success why why do they not care.”

I asked Django to this very question you know I said why do some of us care so much to the point that is physical pain when you see the suffering not just the animals but also humans while other people don't care cheap thought about it for a while and she said I don't know. I don't know my why but but I have met a lot of these billionaires I had dinner with Elon Musk and I've known the Murdoch and I've known Ray value and these people with a lot of money and I think something happens when you insulate yourself with wealth.

Where you believe that you are on touchable and invincible while forgetting that you still need that 50% of the oxygen that the ocean makes because nobody can hold their breath for half the time.

People like Elon has he has read this idea that technology somehow the solution and that we're going to go to Mars and you know I don't think within the next hundred years humans are going to Mars and even if they were. Nothing in Mars for humanity everything we need is on this planet and you're right you know a fraction of his wealth could solve it all I just don't understand it and.

The idea of enoffness it comes from a deeper place it comes from looking just 200 years ago at the way the planet worked and there were a lot of.

An indigenous communities everywhere in Europe and Africa and Asia people who lived close to the earth who understood the seasons and how nature could work with them to keep communities alive and a lot of that has been lost but. The core of it it's it's not even the technologies that indigenous people have right it's the system of values that's really interesting a system of values that is pretty universal around the globe.

“That says you can't take more than what you need because there's others that you have to think about you need to treat the foundation of life but also your community with respect.”

And you have to think about the future generations the people that are not here yet and you have to find ways to live in harmony with nature and with others and this are universal things that in every indigenous community they have different names and different rituals associated with it. But it's a it's an eat those of not wasting and not hoarding and being generous and building community and we have forgotten about that and so the idea of enoffness in the beginning was my challenge to consumerism, but it became something completely different.

It became a liberation because when you understand how much is enough for you for your family for your community and you don't need to be part of a rat race to hoard more wealth or more stuff or more power.

“You have enough and you're free and then you have to be a happy human on this planet and enjoy you know there is a joy of living on this earth you know a sunny day like today.”

I go out and I look at the birds and the trees and they make me so happy such simple things. Now when it comes to photography the whole infrastructure of the internet rewards speed post more post faster be first be everywhere the algorithm doesn't care whether you went deep it cares whether you showed up yesterday and I guess that's not photography specific. Now for me I built my work around a different bet that there are people who would rather go slowly and understand a something fully then go fast and understand probably nothing that depth is not a liability that the work you make when you take your time is categorically different from the work you make when you're chasing the feed maybe or chasing the algorithm.

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There's this this I don't know the experience I've been very fortunate to have experienced decent salary levels before and a level of wealth that I could pretty much not have anything I want but I've never wanted like personally I never wanted big houses or loads of cars but if I wanted to go buy a new camera I could just go buy a new camera there's this level of comfort that you get with that. Which you think makes you happy and I'm not the only one that says this it's it's the majority of people who've reached you've experienced that type of wealth before.

It guaranteed doesn't make you happy you know there's that happiness comes in any other form that isn't tethered to greed and tethered to materialism and consumerism. We have this fundamental cancer in our society that is called consumerism and this this horrible. Just suffering of being this rat race and comparing ourselves to other people and it goes from the bottom of the pile where it's I don't have enough likes on my recent social media posts and I don't have enough followers and goes all the way to the top where I don't have enough private jets.

“And it's just everything in between is just this like toxic way of living and and I can say that from a relatively kind of good position of experience and I couldn't agree with you more but I still see so.”

In this the majority of the population in the West who are just brainwashed by this this idea of strength and capitalism and this is good for society and good for me and I've got my family to support and I you know all of these excuses that people hide behind and we're not talking about people on the breadline who. You know that have to you know really struggling and to and I'm talking about the the middle and upper classes who just have so much disposable income they just want more and more and they use that to fuel the next million and the next million and they hide behind it for these you know a variety of excuses but essentially they're tethered to greed and I don't know.

I just don't you know there is. From what you talked about earlier, do you think there's this this inflection point that we're going to get to and maybe AI is going to force us into that inflection point when we have.

At least AGI as well as super intelligence where it's going to make capitalism redundant it's going to include on itself there's not going to be enough money to print by these economies and we're.

I'm a sad to say but I'm interested to see how what happens and we need this really like new ways of thinking politically you know call. Call Marxism for what it is but it was there it was this huge.

Movement and a brand new idea of how to operate politically economically geopolitically etc.

For for all its faults it was at least this new movement and I feel like we need something like that coming up very soon because capitalism doesn't work. Communism doesn't work what is the solution and and you know maybe AGI will will put us in that.

“I love I love this framing mat because I think you're 100% correct and one of the you know I've been on speaking to our.”

Lately and talking to a lot of people I think one of the big cancers and we need to name them. It is one of them that fuels a lot of this but exceptionalism this idea that I have to be exceptional and I have to be famous and I have to be you know get all the awards and all the power is a cancer and you see it at the top of the government of the United States. Well my gosh because it also makes you feel like you're invincible and the ails of the natural world or somehow not going to apply to you but mother nature is a bitch and she doesn't care.

The the point is to say whatever is happening in the governments and the economy of the world is going to come to ahead pretty soon and I think I think we haven't even seen the worst of it yet but it's going to be a huge challenge to the way the economies are run.

Maybe with a help of AI yes to think about new paradigms new ways of co-existing with each other in the limited resources of a planet that is our spaceship we have nowhere else to go.

“It's going to force us and what I was hint to people is it's painful to see institutions that have been important for humanity dismantled USAID you know the challenges to the United Nations to all of these institutions.”

From FEMA to NOAA UNIMIT and at the same time it's an opportunity we will be called upon as a society to rebuild institutions for the realities of a 21st century and you know we better be thinking about that and what those institutions might look like and people that are smart and visionary like you and me.

We need to be thinking about what the next paradigm might be because we may get called upon to bring ideas and expertise and I don't have the answers Matt I'm just a photographer.

But hopefully there's you know people out there with big brains you know I think about them is Havabi and an AGI and I was listening to an interview he. He has been studying artificial intelligence since he was a little boy with the idea that he can solve a lot of humanity's problem starting with disease and he's right.

“But it's not the only solution because as we lose the foundation of life on earth through extinction we have to remember that those process are irreversible every time we lose a species is one that we cannot ever bring back.”

So we have to keep these two things in mind.

Let's get back to photography. It's all intertwined because this is the medium that we choose to express everything we're talking about now. My concern with maybe we're touched on AI before we finish in the photographic sense, but when you, you know I see your beautiful work I mean talk about your work we could you know give endless strategies how beautiful your images are. No no you go mad that I'll need it. But that word beauty. When we make a choice as photographers to express ourselves express our message tell us story through beauty do you worry that it's it's almost.

Making us complicit in the apathy that we're trying to avoid you know by choosing to to not code go down the lines of maybe like the more shocking or type photography or the more introspective or abstract type of art and we we we show something that's beautiful because we want to quite rightly want to celebrate it but you know there's one thing beautifying indigenous communities and maybe running the risk of sending the wrong message as well as like having that because I know what it's like to see a beautiful image and sometimes it's just a beautiful image because there's wonderful beautiful but it doesn't like maybe it doesn't make me cry or give me the kind of really kind of visceral emotion that maybe something a little bit more shocking might and I'm not saying something's one is right and one is wrong but is that something that you consciously think about when you're photographing.

“Yeah and I think about it in a slightly bigger terms because I think what makes a difference in your photographic career more than anything else is having a well thought out philosophy for your work.”

Why do I do this work and where does my work show up and I want people to see my photographs but I also want them to know the photographer behind the work. When they go look at me I don't want them to think oh this is just you know a dumb dumb chick or that has nothing to say with her work. I want them to know that there is a well thought out strategy and philosophy for every single one of my images and I don't think photographers spend enough time thinking about that philosophy of their work. Does it mean where does it show up what do people need to know about me as the artists behind the work because then everything else falls into place and for me that the tension between making beautiful images with the occasional punctuation of a horrific scene that reminds us of the problems.

But at the same time he reminded us to you know wearing the shits people are still getting lynched in the American south and animals are still going extinct so we are in a lot of trouble but you cannot stay there because people will be repelled and they will reject it so you need to bring them back into what's possible. If you have a philosophy of work that articulates this your way of thinking people will gravitate towards that narrative they know that you're not just showing I can be for the for the clickbait on it.

Yeah which is always the danger but I still think like in we're living a world we live in a culture of hooks right we have to do everything we can to hook people into what we want to show them it's it's you know everything we do even I know it's even in person conversations it's like you know with a few seconds people want to sum you up and whether it's you know it's worth their time being conversation. They just go straight to the phone and that they're completely disconnected so I think I think we that that the the clickbaits idea has a negative connotation but it you have going into your philosophy of photography I think within that philosophy also needs to be a methodology and I think.

“Having something to get people engaged in the conversation it is genuine authentic not saying go and shot people but but the beauty side of things can can do that just as well so I think.”

You know there is an element to that that we have to try and get people into what we're trying to show them and then as long as we've got something to say and that's a.

Another conversation people to try and figure out what they want to say and what they really care about which we touched on earlier I think I see. So for photography a way to an I'm interested to hear about how you experience it certainly on things like speaking tours and the people you meet the the distance between. Almost like the out of sight out of mind mentality and the problems that you were talking about today as well as we all know out there. We can still feel like we sleep well at night because we're not there and we don't actually see it as not a direct problem that we need to take care of in this closing that distance.

That's such an important thing to try and do and I can be photography as such an important role in that absolutely I did a master's a photography course.

That doesn't teach you how to hold a camera or how to do any of the settings but it teaches you how to build a philosophy for you work.

“The way that I built my philosophy of work and when I think about my work I want to have as big a microphone as I can get in every.”

So when I'm a public speaker I'm looking for those hooks you know I start my presentation these days. The first thing I say is the ocean always wants to kill you and it only knows how to kill you in one or two ways the fast or the slow and you better pray for the fast.

I'm very immediately hooked you know they want to know what talk is going to be about but everybody needs to come up with the hook for their story right and that's just one idea but.

It's not about the photographer and it's not about the camera and it's not about the bikini and it's not about the adventure lifestyle.

“It's got to be about what the work means and if you don't do the work of sitting down and writing what that philosophy of your work is then you're just going to be a flash in the news, you know in the social media cycle.”

The real the real game changer is when you acquire enough stature as an artist as a spokesperson for the thing that you care about that you get invited to the policy discussions because people think you have some real expertise. Sometimes I have to pinch myself and ask, do I really know what I'm talking about you know and even if I don't I'm going to be a glorious amateur and I'm going to. I think that's what's important in the work. Yeah I'm passion behind it like belief in that point of view not just the point of view for for the clicks but like and people can really discern the difference right but they totally do they totally do so it's a personal decision for your photography work.

I still don't quite know really what they're pointing the camera out and why and they're still trying to figure out who I am as a person what do I really care about what do I want to commit to what do I believe in what are my values and all of these kind of like human things that go into the operation of a camera.

“It's amazing how many people how many amazing photographers you know technically incredible photographers don't have that and you just think what if you got to view if you had that.”

For lots of the around your work and the belief system around your work know what you really care about you could actually like do some incredible things it'll transcend but you know this is something interesting because that's a one way that I've started using my social media piece states.

I realize that I have a main feed and people expect to see my stories of animals or whatever I have my stories that are usually my reactions to the rage bait.

I've been I also have these channels and I have built a handful of things about the things that I care about I have one called midi on photography and I share a lot of the sparks that other photographers you know insight in me. The photographers should be studying you know people like James Nashman he's worth photography like if we don't study the work of other photographers and how they approach these things it's very difficult to understand what even are we talking about. I heard one of the photographers that I used to admire the most because her work is beautiful and I'm not going to name her but when asked by a reporter you know what her photographs meant she really didn't have an answer she just said well you don't I'm just pointing my camera and letting it do the work I'm like wow that tells me that you have no idea.

Wow you just lost my respect because I can think about a million ways that each and every one of us can frame our work behind the belief and I will say this.

If your photography doesn't have a point of view and if you don't stand on some philosophy then you're just a craftsman you're not an artist every single artist in the history of humanity that that has transcended.

“It's because they have had something to say about the world that they live in in that moment and it's a commentary on social environmental whatever was happening at that time but that's how artists become immortal.”

Yeah and on that note it's interesting because I always think about how I don't have children but I always think what is my legacy going to be in what does that even matter you know do I need to direct my attention to something that's more meaningful and bigger than me. And you know you think about maybe in 200 maybe a hundred years time after I died no one remember me read it's kind of sad to say but it's true like I don't know my great grandfather but no no one there's no one alive these days that would know or remember who he.

“Your you're sharing your exceptionalism you know we're not that exceptional in a hundred years nobody who's alive today will be alive then and nobody will remember who we are.”

There's a freedom in there it is such liberation in that it's just going to do something and don't worry about what it means to the generations are you know obviously like we want to have a good impact on. On society in our world but how do you kind of address that and think about you know all of these all of these things that you've done so well and made a name for yourself and and continuing to make an impact on.

How do you see your definition of success today and how do you how would you like things to be left or your name to be remembered in.

And there are artists obviously that we know lived hundreds of years ago that we still you know think about the musicians and the artists that we we know so it's like we still can live a name and leave inspiration behind us is that something you think about daily and if so. I really worked very hard to shed my ego but I do I do think about it a lot and I think about planet earth as being a spaceship that's carrying humanity across the universe and most of us have opted to just be you know passengers sitting you know having drinks in the back.

I'm planting it's part of the crew and I don't understand how it works fully but I know that without planting the engine will stop working and so you know I look at the the people who are the pilots of the spaceship right now and you were about to ask me about Davos and that's what I was thinking you know the people that attend meetings like the world economic forum they're the pilots but they have no idea who the crew is or how it works.

“At the same time some of those people now they behave like that drunken passenger on 38B that's swinging a bat at the fuselage.”

You know and we all have a choice you know I want to be part of the crew I want to be part of the solution of how the spaceship goes so I that's the only legacy I want you know maybe when I die.

I don't want to I don't want to be buried in the cemetery but if I was and I had to have a what you call it tombstone I just wanted to say she showed up. Is that the is that the credit that you give yourself I mean I know you you clearly battle against kind of the negative effects of an ego but and you don't want to make it about you but there's also kind of like the the self worth and self love that you obviously.

And the and the appreciation for what you've already achieved as well as what you hope to achieve in the future.

Where does do you find it difficult to give yourself credit for what you have already done and yeah. I really am a lot a lot more humble that most people give me credit for I I hope success looks a lot like what you said you know I want to have enough of a decent income that I don't worry about money that I can have the freedom to pursue the things that make me happy and the I want my happiness to include the generosity of empowering and giving back to others who need. You know who I have something that they need whether it's a political power of voice money whatever it is that I can share and be generous with that makes me happy.

And other than that Matt I just I just want to be a good human on planet earth and I don't care if I'm forgotten a hundred years from now but today I want people to know and especially my children. I want them to know that I showed up when there was.

“When there was a call I think about William Wallace you know on that famous scene in Braveheart with the blue paint I'm sure he was terrified he knew that he was sending people to die he still showed up.”

I just didn't met him either the new Braveheart the Braveheart of turning it's showing showing up matters you know showing up and saying I'm not an expert that many of these things but I will apply myself and ask and learn and integrate myself into communities and show up and bring whatever I can to the fight. But before we close for a while now the first thing I've done most mornings before the camera or the other work or before the coffee before the endless tabs is sit 10 20 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise does it has it just made me comment in the way people imagine it's made me more honest more mindful more compassionate and more free in more ways than I could even describe.

And that honesty and introspective clarity more than any lens workshop or book is really what changed my photography the work I make now comes from a quieter place with more cleanness and calmness I notice what I'm reaching for and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing. The inner critic still talks still exists I just don't believe everything he says anymore the app I've used for most of this is waking up by Sam Harris it's the one tool I genuinely kept returning to all this time.

“This is not a paid sponsorship from them however I am an affiliate partner and for good reason I believe that this app is worth it more than any other what's kept me there for years is that it's not just one thing.”

It's a guided daily meditation which is the spine of it for me but there are also short daily reflections a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background and these little moments they call it of awareness you can drop into during the day two minute resets when the head starts running.

There's also an entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have found on my own and a lot more besides that it keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine.

Anyway I hope you enjoy thanks for listening.

“I just want to touch probably one of my last questions specifically about kind of photography which is weird but I really want to appeal to people who are getting into photography at the moment and they all they see is.”

I guess that probably some of the negative connotations we've been talking about today as well as the threat of AI it's just on the photography industry in general. And then you look at kind of the homogenization of images generally that more the algorithm the battles with the algorithm for just I just want to share some images guys can you just post my images where how would you advise or how do you advise people starting out in photography who love photography and want to make something of it whether it's full time career part time career or even just hobby and get recognized for what they do and hopefully have their own.

A piece of difference making in their photography pursuit where would you advise and what would you advise these these young and new photographers to to do to begin with. Last ten years I have really sight tracked photography into believing that social media was the distribution channel and it's not it's just one of many. I advise to photographers is let's go back to the basics of how a photographer creates a career build a portfolio you know with physical objects that you can actually point people to and spend the time in learning photography from the people who came before you who had a philosophy of work for whatever.

Know the names of the giants on who shoulders we stand today because you know photography is not that old but.

You know there's been a lot of incredible photographers before us and let's go back to the basics I still look at this I just got published on outdoor.

Which is such a thrill and I have I full pages of my work it's still a thrill you know learn where those photographs are still being published in age with those publications and learn how to write I mean build build a rainbow of skills that are needed learn how to be a good writer because the internet you know things are found on text non photographs. Learn to be a public speaker that can stand in front of an audience and defend your work and your philosophy of work learn how to be an expert at whatever.

Issue subject you are most passionate about because that's confused your career and let's just go back to the basics of creating a body of work that you can be proud of that doesn't just live on your Instagram. This is actually a presentation of who you are as an artist. And I would say Matt AI sure huge threat. Again, you know this days you can go to any number of platforms and just pipe make me a photograph of blah blah blah and it'll come up.

“I think that will pass I think the novelty the novelty of having a machine create images will pass and humanity will crave that human made.”

Work again and the credibility of photographers who are still making human images human generated images. I would even say again, Chris here, I think that the demand is there more than ever and I think it will continue to increase in demand and I have a firm belief that photography would just raise rise in value.

Decade on decade with with with AI will always be there now and there will always be an option to artificially generate images.

But that will make the human made images more valuable because with now where we have a we're kind of a bigger fish in it. And photography as the skills had right I mean putting the camera on P for program and pointing that something is not making photographs. Let's learn how to be photographers and how the machine which is mostly digital but it's still you know representation of what it was a hundred years ago.

“How does it work? How do you use the settings in the equipment to create something?”

Importantly I think we have to go back to some ethics in photography. You know we forget so easily how our work shows up and how it speaks about the way that we behave. For me you know photography animals that live in cages for the profit of photographers is just revolting to even think about it you know game farms or animals in captivity or I see the young people out there trying to get images of whales in the wild and just chasing them with boats and you know.

A lot of that is education. I would say there's a small minority who are deliberately ignorant and cruel but I'd say the majority of those types of instances because we see you know we see them everywhere and I'd say like there's such a death in education around these types of matters and again I would point to the top and just go well why the fuck is that the case why why we not you know you look at this any school curriculum and it's just so sad.

“You know we learn about you know algebra which arguably is important but we don't learn about how the algebra can can translate into the value of money and understanding how to look after our finances.”

Learn about mental health how to look after ourselves learn about the wider world learn about travel and and the education that you can get with travel and how the system's work. Yeah we just just don't just doesn't just doesn't happen and I think you know we see the result of that now people get their education on. For Instagram and that's the way people think they're educated so now we're siloed into these dumb little kind of echo chambers and we are now seeing the the manifestation of that we're seeing the results of the people that go.

I was in commodo about a month ago and we did there was one dive we did of 20 in that week and you obviously would maybe touch and see like so quickly before before we go but you having been there so many times know that it can get quite populated and which is okay if people understand you know people are ethically responsible in the water on top of the water but we we did one dive.

“And it was a it was a cleaning it was above a cleaning station and you know obviously like we go down and kind of just sat there you know watching mantis but all we could see as we're watching mantis from in it was pretty shallow you know 10 meters.”

Or we could see was maybe 50 snorkelers on on the surface now if 50 people are snorkeling and they're just just bobbing and watching okay you know you're having a wonderful experience watching these mantis but there were so many people with their. Go pros trying to get their Instagram videos diving down on top of the cleaning station touching the mantis and you've probably seen this so many times and I can't remember the point of me telling the story but it's yeah education is like this people just don't.

People and I'm coming up for the so what the because where's the governance where the ranges where's the education and it's all well I can answer two of those media there's money and then the education is a people just don't are not educated in.

The dangers for those animals when you do things like that so a lot of it goes on the top of it yeah all of it is true and so let's talk about see legacy for a moment because though.

You know it's a very sexy fit in in your world and in the last kind of decade or so of you exactly at the intersection of what you're talking about you know we use our celebrity as photographers and the invitation to adventure to try to educate people and not just educate. And if I can you know we are we've been working for years now on the concept of ocean school and finding the funding to keep educating especially younger people about the ocean wide matters how you behave but also trying to model behavior and.

God it's so frustrating to see the operators and the lack of governance and one of the things that we do with see legacy is try to put pressure on governments to create governance around some of these things and.

The good news is we know what the problems are so they can be addressed and we have to be able to reach the government officials capable of saying you know we're going to.

“have sanctions and there's going to be some enforcement and there's going to be some fights for people that don't obey any works in some places I don't have you remember.”

He's a mucetus and the whale sharks and maybe 10 years ago when they found that aggregation of whale sharks off the coast of the Caribbean and Mexico and there were you know to horror stories of. Both running over the whale sharks and people freediving and riding the whale sharks well I'm a protected area was created the Mexican Caribbean biosphere reserve which allowed a legislation framework to be.

The the captains of the boats apply for tourism license if they have fines against them they don't get a license for next year.

“We know the solution so what we do at sea legacy is yes it's great to be a famous photographer because people listen to you more.”

I tried to use my voice to talk to politicians who can actually do something and you know sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but we show up. What's the prediction.

You don't necessarily want to say out loud even though we're going to ask you to to say out loud how what do you see happening over the next.

Two five ten years in this world of conservation and conservation photography.

“So I think we're we're in for some really tough times I think we're already seen the beginning of extinction acceleration you see it in the ocean rate particularly this year along.”

I mean since in the last 12 months we've seen over a hundred gray whales wash up dead in on the coast of the Pacific in Mexico golf California the waters to one so. The warming water is a heartbeat of really bad things a lot of mortality but a lot of natural disasters which include wildfires as the ocean wants it changes the precipitation patterns and so off the coast of California we will see more wildfires we will see more hurricanes in the Atlantic we will see. You know as the Arctic and the Antarctic melt that infusion of fresh water into the system is changing the very shape of the ocean currents that keep the weather patterns around and we're going to see.

“Big changes for those of us who care about animals as we see extinction happening could just we're going to have to steal ourselves and just get stronger to witnessed things that are horrific.”

I was listening to a poll tisha that they before yesterday say oh global warming you know why is some places getting colder and it's just all semantics.

I wanted to say you know how in the 1990s we used to talk about you having a limp dick well now we call it erectile dysfunction you know it's just. Oh yeah I don't know where to go from that but where. Where does you know that we talk about this and you know obviously like you have you was you will endeavor to have a big part to play in in making as many changes and influences that you can. You can have and see legacy is such a huge part of that and if anyone's watched the documentary you're in photographer the the episode that you were in and not geos photographer which was.

Really fantastically put together but it also gave us a window into the struggles that you import have as well as the sea legacy crew as well as everyone else out there that are not on this call with me but everyone else out there they do such amazing work whether it's with you or alongside you. And how much of a cost it does that have on you as a person and as a you know as a as just a human when we talk about hope we talk about shock and suffering the things that you've seen. What kind of told is that take on you and and do you worry about how much of a personal toll that takes on you moving forward.

I have to think about the positive things Matt and I am incredibly lucky that I get to do this work that I get to have a career that contributes something that I get to spend time in the world with animals. That is amazing that I get to do this work with the love of my life with my partner Paul Niklin who's equally passionate and loves doing the same things I do so all of that gives me a lot of resilience and you know I get to talk to people like you like minded artists who feel the same way so I know I'm part of a larger community.

Power a lot of young people and a lot of up and coming photographers all of that gives me a lot of resilience so it takes a toll on me only if I decide to sit around and feel sorry for what's happening. But that's just not me. I really I really think it's important to address fear with action and hope and I do that by choice every day because the alternative is just to scary and dark so.

Well no one's ever going to forget you for a long time I think Christina and I think if you continue doing the incredible work that you have been doing up to this point and we're all watching we're celebrating hopefully we're supporting. How can people support and then we have to see legacy on you know in terms of donations on one side how else can we you know I don't want to ask you the same question again like what can we do to help but what can we do to help and and where we'd you like to point people in terms of where they might be able to support you.

To support you and your ambitions. I'm very lucky to be friends with real heroes like Chris Tomkins who has preserved hundreds of thousands of hectares in Paragonia with her wealth and the wealth of her late husband dog Tomkins.

I'm very impressed with Chris and somebody recently asked that question in an audience and she just look back and said so what can you do. How are you going to show.

“I think it's just by asking that if you're an accountant can you volunteer a few hours to non-profit if you're a lawyer can you support the lawsuit if you are a mother of young people you know how do you empower those young people to show up.”

And be active so that they don't get apathetic and stressed out you know go to a beach clean up where we're we're focusing our lens on the sungai watch kids. I know them in Bali yeah incredible people again you know these are children there are three siblings and the three of them are so invested in finding a solution for the plastic that's going into the ocean. It's a problem with governance of the government of Indonesia not cleaning up not having a collection services or recycling services but it's also allowing all these plastic to be created in the first place.

When these are children so we point our lenses at them as examples of things that give us hope and where they need us the rest of us to show up and support them so that they don't lose their hope either.

“So the thing that you can do for free today is like comment and share on every one of those accounts of the heroes in the front lines they meet to see that we care.”

And I mean I'm not going to jump in a dirty river to clean it up but God has element of support them.

Please keep doing what you're doing. They've just done a huge run across Indonesia or somewhere. I don't know the details but they're just a raised one running across the country. Yeah and they're capturing people's attention and they're they're bringing so much good attention to this issue and again a lot of it is governance when a lot of it's the education you know living there myself I see. But the majority of the local population just don't understand the impact that the single use plastics have they don't understand where that might end up and so just like being and those little things.

Being able to talk to someone who may not understand and then being able to educate them in a non kind of elitist pretentious or condescending way.

“So I think yeah there's so much power in that and we always want to think about the butterfly effect right always want to think about everyone.”

Everyone can get up and have a tiny little bit of difference that may turn into a bigger difference. Yeah without anger without pointing fingers without being condescending or rude judgment exactly yesterday he's kids. So they're running across the entire country of Indonesia which is one of the largest countries on the planet because a lot of it is water. And three siblings two boys and a girl and the three of them are running together and I mean you I follow so closely right and I you see how their feet are hammered by blisters and pain and every morning.

The older brothers encouraging the other two younger ones to keep going well yesterday they crash the wedding and Indonesia and Indonesian wedding and soon they were invited in there's music and there's a lot of plastic in the wedding. Right I mean and they take the time to make the connection of what they're doing with the problem which is the prevalence of the everywhere act. I'm saying you know speak up my children used to hide from me when I used to go to the grocery store with them because I would take stuff to the manager and I would say why does a banana need to be wrapped and plastic again.

But you have to speak up and it's exhausting but if a handful of us are doing it it doesn't work if a lot of us show up and start asking questions yeah it works show up.

If you could leave one sentence carved on the inside of every view as I what would it say show up.

“Yeah don't ask me what to do you know go find what you can do and then just show up.”

And this is the other thing hope that or rely on other people someone else will do it.

It's the biggest mistake we have made us a humanity assumption that somebody else is doing something but trust me nobody is.

“Elon Musk certainly is not we we have to show up for our own future so show up.”

Thank you so much you've you've showed up today I've showed up today so we can take that off our daily list but thank you so much Christina you are obviously a huge inspiration to so many people.

And all I can say is thank you for doing what you do and and please don't stop and we will be behind the lines supporting years as best we can. Thank you Matt for the opportunity and I really have enjoyed the stock and travel safe. Thank you very much you too.