The One Question That Helped Rich-Joseph Facun Find His Photographic Voice, E116

It's only long time to be getting better

and better and better at what you do, so then to stop. - It's been very challenging. If you weren't a photographer making a living as a photojournalist,

what would your photography be? - What is it that you see in strangers that makes you reach for your camera? - Everyone looks interesting to me to some degree.

We are naturally attracted to people that we see something about them that we're mirroring or reflective of our own self. - Everyone's got a story and I'm down under here someone's story.

- There's the huge responsibility on the photographer to be ethical, have dignity, respect,

but also portray the people that you're photographing

in a respectful manner. - Whenever image I make, there's some accountability. People are looking at that. - What is involved in and not challenge?

- What I've been started. (upbeat music) - Rich Joseph for couldn't. What a pleasure to have you on the move podcast. Thank you for joining me.

- Thanks for having me. It's going to look forward to this. - Yeah, sorry to you for those listening. Rich Joseph is a little bit under the weather, so we appreciate him even more spending some time with us.

So be here, the odd splatter or cough then. (laughs) - Do you want it?

- So sorry to show you, it's not so great.

(laughs) - Thank you. - I wanted to start with an opening question. Usually I get people to kind of give me a background,

but for you, I think, I don't know, I'm a huge fan and you've been going for a long enough time that we might take 10, 15 minutes just to kind of wait through your background, which we're going to get to.

I'd rather just kind of feed it in as we go. But one thing I'm interested in is how you see people and how you figure out to yourself that you want to take a photo of that person or of that community of those people.

So what is it that you see in strangers that makes you reach for your camera?

“- I mean, honestly, I think it's just a mirroring of,”

and I think this might be true for a lot of photographers, or people in general, I think that we're naturally attracted to people that we see something about them that is mirroring or reflective of our own self

or peaks our curiosity. So I think it's kind of a coupling of both that a degree of curiosity of who this person is and you see their face or their body language or their present, how they present themselves.

And it peaks your curiosity and you want to know more about them or what's their story, where they're coming from and or where they've been. But at the same time, I think it's also just this natural

attitude of feeling that you have when you pass people on the street or when you're driving down the road and something about them connects you or you see yourself within that person, whether it's a mirror, female or some other gender,

it's just I think this intuitive bond. So I don't know. - Why do you think that curiosity comes from

“because I share your, in fact, I think I share a lot”

of your philosophies and the way you think about life with your camera with yourself. But where do you think that curiosity is driven from? Because a lot of people don't have that curiosity. So is it your upbringing, is your background?

Is it the fact that you potentially moved into and you have a mixed heritage and maybe identities thrown on you that won maybe resonant with how you felt and this thing you have with labels and you know, and maybe I'm putting words into your mouth,

but is with that and if those hit the right notes. - I think some of them for sure, but I think in general, it might stem back from even my upbringing from my dad, my dad was in the military. So we moved every, I think on average,

every three years to different town or city, whatever, different port, and you know, being the new kid in school every few years, I mean, you're either consent and be quiet and stay to yourself and be lonely.

(laughs) Or you can, or you can try to make friends and talk and be, you know, be genuine to yourself, but hopefully connect with somebody. I know he need his one good friend, you know,

if you don't have to be down with everybody,

“but I think maybe part of that started there”

just being comfortable talking with strangers and talking with people and then as I was coming up, you know, I had so many different jobs as a teenager. A lot of those jobs are going door to door,

or trying to raise money for green peas

or what else do we do? Oh, I think, and I think, if I,

“now I just remember this, I think when I was living in Mississippi”

which is for your listeners at them, that are not familiar with the states, that it's the deep south of the U.S., which is very heavily populated by Baptists, Southern Baptists, and that's the traditional

what you see in the movies where they baptize, you know, the people in the rivers, you're in the waters and that's part of the practice. And during that time in my life, I was raised Southern Baptists, which is really odd,

but that's a whole nother story. But, and if I, I just remember it, like part of my childhood, we would go door to door,

and I guess as a, and that religion,

you know, you're out trying to save people souls. And so, so I, even being very young, I think at that time, I probably was from kindergarten to about third grade. So I was going door to door with my mom,

and my sister, or other church members, and knocking on doors and pitching the good word, and I was like, so I mean, you know, so, you know, you think about those types of experiences, and then, and then also like coming up as a skateboarder

starting around the age 12, not, you know, not really being confined to just my bedroom being on my phone. Like a lot of kids today are being online. It was more interactive life where you're outside, and I'm skating, and I'm roaming the streets,

and I'm in different places, meeting different people, different ages, different social economic backgrounds,

and never, you know, and never occurred to me

that, well, why wouldn't I talk to somebody?

“So I think that ability to kind of like socialize”

and make friends, I mean, my wife is more of an introvert. I'm an introvert now, there's two really about in the woods, and I really try not to, I don't really like going to town much anymore, but if you give me out and around people, like, I just want to talk and get to know you

or ask your questions or, you know, if you look, I don't even know if you have, I mean, everyone looks interesting to me to some degree, like something about them, I'd be standing in line to, you know, get a drink or buy a ticket

into the movies or something, and I just strike up a conversation, 'cause I think everyone's got a story, and I'm down on the hear someone's story. I mean, yeah, everyone has a story, and I love hearing people's stories,

and I learned learning from people, and I think it's a great way to pass the time, and just learn about your community. So I love it. So I think that's a big part of where it all comes from,

it's just, I think when it comes down to it, it's just a love for people and love of stories, and sharing stories, and swapping ideas, and concepts, and just seeing where that common ground is between people, and between yourself and your community.

- Sorry to cut away from the episode from in it, but I wanted to talk to you about something very quickly. Now, I spent a long time thinking that isolation was part of the deal when it came to photography, that if you were so serious about the work,

you did it alone, you'd consume enough, watching off, reading off, and eventually, it would all cohere into something meaningful. And it sometimes did, but mostly I was just alone with my doubts and no one to push back on them.

What changed things for me, wasn't a course or a workshop, it was a conversation with someone who was doing the same kind of work and cared about it in exactly the same way I did. The doubts didn't disappear, but they got a little bit smaller

and I felt more okay with them, they got named.

“That's what I'm building with the mood inside us.”

It's a place where the work is taken seriously, where you can bring your questions, and of course your hard-finished ideas, and where someone would actually engage with them. We have the ad-free extended podcast episodes

with bonus content, we have monthly masterclasses, Q&A sessions, and of course the weekly book clubs, and direct access to me and my team, because you don't have to do this alone. So the link is in the show notes, hopefully I'll see you inside.

Do you love people in today's world? That sounds like a-- - Nope, that's fair. (laughs) - I feel like there's two, we see humans,

we see especially in the world of digitized, digitized media, and I won't even get into politics and all that kind of stuff, but we have this world where we look out, and we get all of our information, we're consumed with just so much information

at our fingertips, wherever we want to do, we want to get information, we just go online.

I think, and this kind of not hatred of people, but just like this pessimistic, fearful view of people in the world, but then we have this internal, it's certainly kind of on the more micro sense, when we go into a local town, or we come across a colleague,

or a loved one or a friend or a friend or a friend, or a girlfriend, or a dinner, or a coffee, and 99% of the time we have wonderful experiences,

and we remind ourselves how amazing people are,

“and I think that's, I'm answering the question for you,”

I'm 22 much on this episode. - No, I'm so, let's have a conversation. - Let's go over here for real. - It's good to talk. - Love of people, I mean, I share that with you

when I have a camera in hand, but when I go and certain topics arise with strangers, or you see things online, and great example would just be a YouTube comment, something that's so small and just go, "The fuck is wrong with people?"

(laughs) And so this is kind of like these two to what? Do you share the same experiences 'cause you just talked about how much, you know, you resonate and love being around people?

- Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a few different questions or answers to that. I'll start with one, is the beginning is,

you know, when I started doing my first monograph

Black Diamonds, I had just recently moved to this region, and it was right around the time that Trump was running for his first term in office, and a lot of people, at least in the media, we're talking about, and pointing fingers

at this part of the region of the countries, the U.S. saying, it was because of Appalachia, or because of Midwest, to fly over states that Trump was doing so well, and that there was all driven through racism

and people's prejudices. And having just moved to the area with my family, having just bought some land, you know, we live in Millfield, and so the population there is about a hundred, 12, 115.

It's a former coal mining boom town from ages ago, just not much happening there now. So, you know, hearing these things, I was in a little concerned about how this community would receive me how most families say for the, you know,

“is I bring them to a, where did I bring them is it?”

And so, so with those questions of mine,

I've always kind of been one to find out a treat for myself.

It might just be my truth, and I guess I'll just argue and just say that it is just my truth, because it's my personal experience, but based on my own personal experience, I was like, okay, well, let me just go out, cruise around,

let me meet my neighbors, and the easiest way for me to meet people is through, and probably with you, and many photographers is just having that camera in your hand, 'cause I wouldn't pull over at a side of the road

and just like get out of my check-as-layings. Like, hey, how are you doing, buddy? You know, like, but I have a camera in my hand, I just, it's like my permission slip to go and bug any bloody, and they can tell me to go away,

and that's fine, I'll respect their space, but like, it really is my permission slip to just literally pull into their driveway. And especially out here in the world area, where I don't pull all the way up into their house,

I'll just pull to the edge of their driveway, because even when people pull into my driveway,

“my wife and I both are like, who's coming to her trap?”

Who's that? (laughing) You get very possessive of your land. You know, 'cause people aren't usually pulling in your driveway, unless they know you and you know the-- - Yeah, yeah.

- So, you know, I pull in gently, take a peek out, you know, take a walk up and try to say, "Hello, you're usually the person's out there y'all, "it's their property or whatever, but." So yeah, you know, so I'm just going out

and doing that same thing when I started black diamonds, meeting my neighbors, meeting my community, stopping anytime I saw somebody of interest or anyone I was curious about. And thankfully, people were very receptive.

Most people said would be fine if I made a portrait of them, and those who were interested in being photographed, they would still hang out and talk with me, but I would still do the same. I didn't want to just roll up and say,

"Hey, can I make your portrait?" And if you say, "No, then I can't, I don't care." Like, I don't care about you. You're not gonna get what I want, I'm leaving. Like, I'll hang out and talk because like,

I still want to know about them, find out what their story is. And so that was a big catalyst to like, just getting to know my community is through black diamonds and finding out how I would be received.

And then if you fast forward, that was, I think 2000, I don't know, 2000, something, but anyway, fastward till the present day.

but the, that vibe, that, I think a few things have changed.

I've lived here for just over a decade now. I'm still an outsider, but like I know the community more. I've done three books now in this region. I'm not, doesn't feel so exploratory now.

“And I think when, and the thing when I say,”

with exploratory comes to me like a magical feeling, like you're, you're not only discovering your community, but also becomes a form of self-discovery. And so as the political climate has changed, at least in this region, and presumably not only nationally,

but recently, I think it's become even worldwide, I have seen that shift in, because when I worked on Black Diamonds,

I could drive through the country I never saw any,

or I'll see never, but there was very few political signs, either for either party. And I think a couple years ago, I went back driving through that, oh, a year ago, year ago, I went back driving through kind of that, that routes

that I would take when I was working on Black Diamonds just to show front of my, kind of, you know, where the book was made in the different spots that I would come to. And I saw signs in support of Trump, like, all over the place.

So the political tone has changed in its, in its odd, but, and it does make me feel uneasy, but I feel less reluctant to be out there still,

because I still feel like I know the community,

and I, and I, and come, come back to what you're saying,

“where, I think what you were saying was that,”

you go out and have, you know, a drink with your neighbor or stranger or whatever somebody who may not have the same political views or same views of you that you may have religiously, politically, intellectually, whatever the case may be,

and what you can sit down and have a drink, and really have a great time, have a great conversation. And I think that still happens now, but there's a lot less, at least for me, unfortunately, that I have a lot less flexibility

or willingness to, to hold my hand out, and try to make common ground, because, like, I have a trans child, so, and, and I'm a personal color, my father was an immigrant,

and you're taking all the boxes.

“- Yeah, you know, I've lived on, you know,”

I've lived on, you know, on welfare, I've had, I've received, you know, welfare, not welfare, but food stamps and WIC, WIC is like a form of government help for medical care for your children and the woman who's caring, a child.

So I've experienced, like, I've lived with a low-income lifestyle, I don't want to be more, but I have, and the past, and it was extremely helpful, and it's still helpful for many of my neighbors. And trust me, like, nobody wants to be on welfare,

but I didn't want to be on it, but it's certainly helped me to have some social mobility. Had, had I not had welfare, you know, help from the government. I don't even know that I'd be here talking with you on, you know, on this podcast,

I don't know that I would have been a photographer. I don't think that I would have gone to university and received a degree, I wouldn't be here, period. So bringing it full circle, it's like, you know, yeah, I want to have conversations with people

and I want to see the good and mankind and have that hope, but at the same time, it's been very challenging to like, you know, certainly lost or walked away from certain friendships, from family members, for reasons that I mainly, you know,

I just couldn't, I can't accept, if you can't accept me, that me being like my wife, my trans child, and everything that comes with this, and we're not down, like, you know, I just, I can't, it's not because we can disagree on like,

on food and we can disagree on, you know, I don't really, I'm not, you know, on drinks or things that are minor, but we cannot disagree on the treatment of civil rights for people, whether they're from, you know, a biopot community

whatever the case may be, like, you know, if it's gonna harm people or create some form of genocide, anything along those lines, like, I'm just not down, like, can't, like, turn the other cheek and pretend like it's okay, 'cause it's not.

- Yeah, that's a hard reality. - Yeah, I agree with you on everything,

and I'm always a proponent of people

having different perspectives, because that's innate, that's pathological, almost, that we have different perspectives on life, because we've all had different experiences, and also different opinions that stem from those perspectives

“and experiences, but I think that's healthy,”

but when you are not able to couple that with empathy and compassion, I just don't have time for you. And I mean, my wife always have this conversation, it almost seems daily these days, but we just look at each other and go,

why can't people just be nice? I mean, it sounds good, it sounds a bit tried,

but it sounds a little bit good, but like,

why can't people just be nice to each other? Why do we, you know, you think about all the wars that are going on at the moment, and all the political divides and the hatred, because they get thrown around on stuff

that actually just doesn't matter or shouldn't matter. You just think, I just don't understand, I just don't understand, I don't,

“and certainly there is a limit isn't there,”

like you said, this is lying, we just go, if you can't even attempt to just be compassionate, or try and understand, or it come up with some level of human dignity, then I just, there's no, it's a waste of my time and energy,

and it's just gonna, we talk about this thing about energy all the time that's so kind of intangible, but it's present, and there's so many people that just sap energy from you, that may be, like a, that may be like a fuel for photography

and art and things like that, but in a way, in the way to live life, it's just exhausting. And so I feel you, and I don't blame you at all,

but is that something, basically everything you've just described

in this kind of philosophy and the way that you've evolved as a person, and again, we, I do want to go back to your history in a minute, as well as talk about books, like Black Diamonds, but I just want to double-click on this a little bit, because it's interesting to me.

Is this curiosity, but this kind of philosophy on with people, with, maybe not politics, but with sociology and, you know, with your family and kind of the, the battles that you've had in life, is this kind of the fuel for what you photograph,

like choosing subject matter in this kind of your interest in this space between human, I guess, divided in human opinion and human experiences. Is that, you know, kind of, it seems to be part of what you'd like to kind of investigate with a camera.

“I think it's, it's, it's just, it's very,”

back to being intuitive, it's, it's just what's natural for me, part of being a photographer, I, you know, I was working class as a blue collar. That's, even to the, today, I still, that's who I, that type of people, that community, that's, that I feel

most comfortable around those type of people, that feels, natural to me, and part of I think maybe is, because I don't feel judged, and I'm not judging them, we're just, we're kind of, on this, I feel like we're on the same playing ground, playing field, and, you know,

it's interesting because, you know, I'd like to, you say, like, we'll politics aside, like, we're about from social economic perspective, and like I was working, I've been working on this short form project for the university here, and it's focusing around this nonprofit,

not for profit, pharmacy, and I've met several of their clients and have asked them to kind of come to your home and make some portraits of you, and as part of this project. And interesting, like, you get to their house, not all of them, but some of them have gone to, and they literally, like one gentleman,

had a framed picture of Trump on his wall, and, you know, I'm, it, it kind of baffles me, because I'm thinking, well, do you understand that these, this nonprofit pharmacy that is helping your sustained the health of your life is funded by grants that the current president

is not supporting. Yeah, and I'm, I don't bring it up. I don't, you know, because it's not, I'm not there to, like, preach,

what is the thought process? And then I also start to think like,

“okay, well, and I've talked more with my wife about this too. I was like, you know,”

'cause my wife's very, very much a, a breast with politics, and beyond, like, I just have for a given me the cliff notes, 'cause I'm like, I can't, I can't take all that. It was like, I'm like, hold on big, but, um, yeah, um, I was like, just give me the points that I need to know, not look more into it. But, you know, so I'm sitting there

and I think about these, these people that I mean, and, like I said, it's more than one, you know, and I'm thinking, you got to come in here every day, every week getting these premedes, the political party that you're supporting is against this, but you're rocking the hat, you've got them on your wall, and at home, and like, I just, so I just, it's because it's not that they don't see it as a political party.

“It's a cult. So, you know, and I don't, well, that's why I get kind of confused,”

'cause I'm thinking, okay, so then I go, you and I, or people like you and I and my wife and possibly your wife have not met her, but perceive that, like, they're, this is a cult. But then on the flip, let's, like, play devil's advocate, like flip the coin, and I'm like, well, okay, he's, they're watching, you know, this news channel, we're watching that news channel, that's the truth to them, this is a truth to us, no, no, I'm right, no, no, he's right, so, like,

what is the truth? I'm not saying, but I'm not saying, like, I'm not choosing a side, but if we pause for a moment and step aside and go, okay, I've done this, I like thought to myself, okay, wait, am I, am I really, is this, is my reality real, am I tripping, like, is my interpretation as I, as all the news, I'm getting tainted and just progressive rhetoric and they're just preaching

to the choir. I get, I know, I totally agree with you, and I, I think about, I always want to

play devil's advocate, and I, and I understand, you know, with, I'm getting into the political we tip, but I understand, I actually understand why and how Trump was elected, whereas a lot of people just can't accept the reasons why, but I understand why people went to him as, like, this saviour figure. I get it, but when you're talking about the specific example of a photo on the, whatever it was on the wall, but in their own reality, it's completely the contradiction, that's a problem. But I don't,

“like, you have to still be able to see the own eyes, what's happening in front of you, and what”

this person stands for that doesn't correlate with what you're seeing in real life, or is negative affecting your own, so that, that's where, like, I think. Yeah, because, yeah, yeah, but from a social economic perspective, yeah, I'm very curious about people, regardless of their political stance is, and many, many of that does stem from my personal life experience of just, you know, having, working class background, having traveled and lived all throughout the U.S. and having lived

the broad, seeing the way different, different communities, different cultures work, some for the

better, some for the worse. It's always been fascinating to me, just to understand how the,

all that it is, sincresses and all of the, moving parts of a community and a society, and of people in general, and I really, I enjoy it, and it's interesting. We're so complex, aren't we, within the day, and everyone's, but it's could be so simple if it could, I'll just be nice. Yeah, now, there comes a point in every photographer's journey where gear or technique stops being the question, you've learned your camera, you can read light, you know how to edit,

how to produce, what a good frame looks like, and you can probably make one on demand quite easily. But something is still missing, the work feels good, competent, maybe even pretty, but it doesn't quite feel completely yours. It doesn't really say anything that couldn't have been said by someone else on Instagram with the same camera. That's the moment most people get stuck, not at the beginning, but right here, right there, somewhere in the middle of it,

in the midst of it, where you have all the tools, but not really any of the language. And the reason it's so hard to move past is because nobody can teach you your voice in a tutorial or a silly

slowly by methods and introspections that actually allow you to look at yourself and your work, and challenge you with the harder questions, all in order to draw out your unique and photographic

“voice. That's what my voice alchemy mentorship program is. It's an online container for photographers”

who really already know how to use their camera, but want to use it to say something that's more meaningful and that actually matters to them. Personalized strategy, honest feedback, and the kind of work that builds, their body, a voice, and a brand that actually gets noticed. It's not a course,

it's just the thing I always wished I had had, and it's the thing I now spend most of my days doing.

The link is in the show notes, so if something in this is calling you, hit the link, and we'll see where you're at. Yeah, and we could still be beautiful and complex, but be nice. Yeah, I just, yeah. Anyway, look, you mentioned your upbringing or background, and earlier you talked about how everyone's got a story and you want to kind of hear their story. Tell us your story. I know you ended up in photography by accident. You were a young father,

and you had, you know, you were moving around, and, you know, issues with schooling, and give us a kind of a quick quick overview of the Genesis story, how kind of you fell into photography, what battles you found, and then we'll talk about kind of your first career steps.

“I mean, I never intended to be a photographer. You know, just like anybody, I think we all enjoyed”

taking pictures. I started out just photographing a little skate community that was a part of.

I think I was like from ages 12, 13. And then, always snapping photos, making a little skate

scenes. And then, you know, I think about 16, realize like, oh, you're going to be at that. And while I was right when I turned 17, so in that, and suddenly I'm like, oh, damn, okay. I'm 17. I'm going to be a dad. I'm not, you know, I'm filling out of 12th grade, not going to finish college. I mean, not going to finish high school. If I don't, so how am I going to do this? You know, you're 17 years old. You've got your girlfriend pregnant. You're

you're thinking, you know, I'm thinking like, what do I do? You know, where do I what I've been

start? But surprisingly, I mean, not having any parental guidance on any of these matters,

because we didn't, my mom didn't even know that my girlfriend was pregnant. We didn't tell

“either our parents until, um, I think she was almost six months pregnant, because she was tiny,”

and so she would just wear bigger and bigger clothes. I'm, I'm still bad for what I was a pair of now. I'm like, how did they have some clues? How did they not know? Like, they're just not. See, I mean, I don't know, man. Maybe they didn't want to see. Anyway, so we, you know, so I realized, you know, okay, I either need to, I need to finish school now. I need to graduate now or else I'm not coming back and I can have a car. You're not going to have a school diploma at

the very least. So it took like seven bells straight, skipping them, took classes during my lunch, took night school, and then took a class in summer school so I could graduate. So my daughter was at my high school graduation, and then, or 17, and I think it, I think I was 27 or 28 or somewhere around there, 29, maybe I, because I didn't go back to college until I was in my late 20s. So she was at my high school graduation, and then I purchased her for at my college graduation.

And the, and the time between there, it was a matter of just, you know, figuring out what, what am I going to do? Obviously, her mom and I missed enough splitting up, you know, because 17, 18 years old, having a child, like that's just not going to happen. So we split up eventually, and dying of like, heading out to New Mexico just to kind of pursue something else. And didn't quite work out, came back, actually came back to Virginia, because I just felt like I needed

being in my child, and still trying to figure things out. Still, like, you know, I think at this time of like 2021, and I'm doing a lot of glue collar work, everything from tree work to brick Mason labor, to gutter cleaner. And then eventually, I was just, I needed, I was trying to go back to college. Eventually, I did go back. I couldn't get funding, because, you know, my parents made

aid, though, because when I think when you head a certain age, you, you know, longer, they're

like we're lying, your parents income. So that happened, and then I took this photo class, and was like, oh, man, what do I do now? Because I fell in love again, like, I was like, got bit my bug, yeah, I was like, I'm like, I'm, you know, and, and in that, into that class, I entered like a, a, a, a direct exhibition, and at one, this portrait series, and so I ended up doing this workshop with like Bill Apparaged and Care of Guzzy, and then in the other guy, Eric Seals, and they were all

afterwards, it was like a week long workshop in the last video. Should I pursue what was going to do with this photography, and it was what was my major, that told me that, no, I'm just,

“I'm just trying to get a fine art credit, and then they were like, no, you should really consider”

you're pursuing for the journalism, and they told me about some schools, and so it's kind of torn, because, you know, I already had a game plan, I had a scholarship to go on to a four-year university again, but at the same time, I, I couldn't stop thinking about the, the, the pot, the unknown, the possibilities, you know, like, I was still in my 20s, and I was in my late 20s, which is pretty late, but I didn't have a kid, but at the same time, I still young enough to

feel like to have that, you know, when you're young and you're naive and you haven't been beat up too much by the world yet, and so like, so, you know, I wasn't afraid to take chances, I still am not, but, but I had that youth that vigor, and that you have, as a young person, and

“so I just went forward eventually, you know, there's obviously like a lot of the hoots that”

jump through, but I went forward eventually, and like, ended up with the university, and, you know, so one year, you know, I was cleaning gutters, and literally a year later, I was like, got a paid photo internship and a newspaper, but bylines, you know, being put out there, getting calls to come do internships, the fall, you know, right after my summer internship was over

by, you know, his amazing photo editor, he used to be at a Mike Davis, he was a photo editor at

naturally a group geographic, and then we've done to these, these other publications of Chicago, and he saw something in me and, and gave me my second internship, and at that internship, there were some amazing photographers there, it was like Todd Highsler, who's now out to New York Times, John Loanstein, um, those are just two of the bigger names that were there, but several staff photographers there were just doing amazing work, and it was so was like, almost going

to grad school, but I'm in undergrad, and, and learning from them and seeing the work they do, and then seeing, and hearing the way Mike Davis would talk about photography, and storytelling, and just, just magic, and it was magical, and just a wonderful, wonderful opportunity that

I could never pay back, and I'm so grateful I had that that experience, and, um, from there,

I just kept on going, man. So that took you into a period of photo journalism, essentially, is that correct? Yes. So what was photo journalism kind of the origin of your interest or lessons that you learned from people, interesting people, is that curiosity, would you already had that,

“but what did photo journalism kind of teach you about people that maybe you had to learn?”

What did photo journalism teach me about people? I don't know that it, I think it really just enhanced my relationship with people, and I don't know that I can pick like one specific thing that taught me, I think it just, again, it just enhanced that opportunity to build relationships with community, with people, with the individual, and it also allowed me to understand that there was a, not only responsibility and accountability

for the way I presented people or community in print or online or anywhere that you might see an image of my work. And so it really taught me this lesson of like, I think on a good back to accountability and like knowing, like for example, being here in Appalachia, you know, having moved here and started working on these projects, I didn't, I wasn't fully aware of the stereotypes that have been spent out visually about the region.

And I didn't realize the sensitivity of that, the nature of that, with the people in the community.

they ran parallel to each other, I started reading about Appalachia and I'm not just

visual, I looked at photo books, but also wanted to see the conversations that were already out there, and quickly realized, oh, okay, we need to like be very cautious of how you, how you walk this line. So again, that went back to accountability and you know, even when it came down to like sequencing images and books, or pairing images, or even, I could see how the slight change in that could create an narrative that I didn't necessarily intend it to. So more than once, you know,

because my wife, Jasmine, she's extremely instrumental in all of the work that I do, so there's

many times which you call me out, and because I was like trying to push it, just like a little bit,

push it, push it, just massage it, push it, and walk that line, we're like, okay, because you do, you don't want to just water it down to the point where you're not saying anything. Yeah, but you also don't want to misrepresent the narrative that you're trying to share, share with others, or being commissioned to like in the footage in this world,

“how much you, how much you, you getting told of what narrative you need to fit into, right?”

That what that happens quite a bit. I mean, it's not intentional, and I want to that specifically to work, I do an Appalachia for editorial science, but from a long-term perspective, our career length view of that is, I don't think it's intentional through that, in front of details, tend to do that, but quite often, you're giving an assignment, and they'll say, okay, well, this is the narrative that the writer's working on, this is the topic that we're trying to

illustrate, so you have to go make images, you know, have to, but you choose to take on an assignment and make these images that compliment that storyline, but you may be out there working and find, and more times than not, I certainly have been where I'm at working, and during that love that arc of my career, and I've thought to myself, oh, I know this is the story, but this is not what I'm seeing, or this is not what I'm feeling, like this is not completely accurate, and I've raised

questions about it and arc on back to an editor and shared that, sometimes it's well-received, and other times, you know, it's like, well, my phone's like gonna ring for them again, and that's fine, because like, you know, I mean, at the time, you know, I wasn't ideal to lose client-based, but like, you know, it was much younger, but it's just, it's the nature of the job, I mean, it's the nature of it, like, people want this particular story to be illustrated,

“and that's the worst thing. - And there's time constraints, whereas if you do personal”

projects, like, because my next question is going to be, how do you avoid the stereotypes? You know, we certainly have documentary photography, there's a huge responsibility on the photographer to be ethical, have dignity, you know, respect, but also portray the people that you're photographing in a respectful manner, or in the way that they, maybe not the way they want to be portrayed, because, you know, you have a camera, and you have your own style in your own process,

but there is, there is this kind of, like, this, you know, smoke of ethical responsibility around the whole thing. So, you know, speaking of stereotypes, how do you, what is the process, and how do you, you know, kind of some tips to avoid those stereotypes? Is it just better research? Is it spending time with the people? What is involved in, and not just...

“I think it's, for me, it's just being, and goes back to, again, being accountable for your own voice,”

and that kind of, well, for example, I think a good example is when I was working as a photojournalist in Norfolk, Virginia, I worked for this paper called the Virginia pilot,

that that paper is the paper that I first started as delivering the paper as a little boy when

I was like 12, then I went, then the whole story we talked about, and then coming back into, you know, finding photography, becoming a photojournalist, getting hired on at the paper that I first delivered newspapers for. That paper worth the time was really well-known for its use of visuals,

and also for photography that's been done by the some of the staff members. So,

“having grown up in that area and returning back to it and working for the paper,”

having my last name, you know, for Coon, it's like, and there was a time like, if you're last thing was for Coon and you live in the States, like, we were related, like, you know, was such an uncommon name. So, people would recognize that last name and say, "Oh, that must be where Brothi, Brothi, Brothi, Brothi's son, or that must be Arlendus's son." Or, "Oh, I used to work for me, you know, doing tree work." Or, "Oh, I used to teach him

over at Greenland High School," or whatever the case. So, people knew my name and knew who I was, or even childhood friends, or even present friends, would hold me accountable whether I liked it or not. Like, if I got it wrong, they would call me out and tell me, you know, and, um, not rude, but they was spank me, you know, and I told me, like, he was like, "Oh, man, you screwed up." But on the flip side, they also would

reach out when I thought I did a good job and pat me on the back and, you know, adaboy and tell me, like, you know, they love what I was doing. So, the level of accountability working there was, like, magnified, was magnified from anywhere else I worked. But that experience was taught me

“quickly. Like, people are watching everything that you do, and you need to keep that same mindset,”

whether you're working in, along the gauges in India, or if you're in the hills, foot hills the Appalachia, or if I'm on the rise in that Navajo nation, like, however, whenever image I make, there's some accountability people are looking at that, and it's going to, um, inform, and create a perception of that person, or that community, or that idea, or that concept. And I have to be, I have to own up to that, and I hope, and so I strive to really get it right.

But that being said, I still coming from a, you know, originally, my, the, I was originally as a double major in philosophy and religious studies. So coming from that background, I still questioned the whole concept of objectivity. And our humans capable of being objective. And I,

and I struggle with that, because I don't think that we are, and then it's not a critical perspective,

it's simply a curious stance in the questioning of what is documentary photography? What is for originalism? How are we, how can we be objective? Can we be objective? Do we need to redefine what these labels mean and what types of photography and what, you know, what is documentary, what is post-documenting photography, what is for the jails and how do we define those concepts today, are they, are our concepts and definitions of those types of photography outdated? And if they

are outdated, what direction are they going and how do we both from that? Because if I'm honest with myself, like my life experience is certainly going to, and I would talk about before, it's like just my, with identity and socioeconomic experiences and on and on and on, as a human, I can do my best to try and be objective, but I can't, as a human, separate my life experience in the, the way I, and then in my life experience is going to affect, even on a subconscious level,

how I interpret and filter the world and frame it and within an image. So, yeah, and then even on top of it, and that's true. And then even that, even if I, even if I was able to be a hundred percent objective, then I turned that work around to the editorial client, or if I'm making a book, and then I have to do the edit of how it will, how it will be sequence, how will the images be paired, will the rejective positions, how will we strengthen or highlight one image and then

make the next frame softer and like to offset the reality of the other frame before prior to it. So, you're right, so then there is the edit. So, is there objectivity? So, that's kind of,

“that's kind of where I'm at. Yeah, I love the whole label talk. I think they were just so”

tethered to labels throughout society in general, but definitely in photography, what's your style, what's your voice, what, how do you define yourself and notes out and ask you what type of

photography you do? First of all, people watching and listening to this can go and find out if they

don't know, but it's, you know, we suddenly put ourselves in boxes with these labels and it becomes

maybe that is an evolution we haven't quite realized yet that we should be evolving whether

“that labels or just the complete denunciation of labels. I don't know, but what, so when,”

when is he spent, you know, a long time in the photojournalism world and then there was a period that you stopped photographing altogether. Is that correct? Tell us about, I'm very, very interested in this because there's so many photographers, certainly photographers at your level, you think they've been doing with their life, they've practiced it, they've mastered it, they're obsessed with it, but they're, you know, having been a photojournalist for, I think, 15 years, there's only

long time to be getting better and better and better at what you do. So then to stop, says something quite profound, I think, can you elaborate on kind of the reasons why you stop to what it's for? Yeah, and just to kind of give you for those you aren't familiar with my work, I just do a quick little timeline. So I kind of started as like a snapshot, skate photographer

with my friends, then when I took the first photo class at university, I was just doing street

“photography and street portraiture, but I didn't know that's what it was. I didn't know about”

labels or categories of genres of photography, it was all just photography. Then I fell into kind of documentary work for like a quick minute and then got into photojie program where I was trained as a photojournalist, but while I was being trained as a photojournalist, I was still doing street photography because that was what was fun to me, just like, cruise around, walk the strip, around with those rent, take pictures of people, then did photojournalism for like, full time,

for like 15 years, 15 to 20 years kind of kind of slowed down towards the last five years. Then went into communications and marketing, which is where I'm now, but from from that very beginning of snapping photos of just my friend skating till present day,

I was always working on books. Whether the first one was just like DIY, Skazine, Zerox together,

staple, former storytelling, super basic. Then it moved into like handmade books with handmade prints and then kept growing and growing until we're in today where I'm putting out, through an imprint that I launched live as corner, putting out my most recent monograph, um, 1804. But to answer your question, um, so about just over 10 years ago, my wife and I decided to, you know, my wife grew up in LA and we were living in

the South at the time and she just was like, you know what, I do not want to raise our kids in the cell. And I was like, well, first I was like, we don't live in the South, we live in the East Coast, because now we live in the South. I'm like, no, you know, and then, you know, of course, the truck is bio with the Confederate flag and then there's a Civil War, you know, Confederate monument down the street and like, okay, okay, maybe we do live in the South. Um, and so I'm like,

okay, cool, I'm down with that. So, um, we started looking for, I was looking for alternatives like, what, what can I do, um, beyond photo journalism to take care of my family. Um, and so, eventually, um, I found work in communications and marketing at the University here in Ohio. So I originally came here to work for the medical school. And when I arrived, you know, it was it was an eight to five job, um, Monday through Friday, weekends off, uh, and I was able to

begin, like, making solid plans and sticking with them with friends or family. Um, we bought some acreage, so it was getting really getting down with home studying. Um, we're starting to skateboard,

getting, I was always skating, but I got to skate, work, my friends, and build a skate community here.

Um, and as that was happening, um, you know, when, I think with any career that you do for 20 years,

“your identity is shaped by that. That's how you define who you are typically, generally speaking,”

so doing photo journalism for that long length of period and then coming here and not having to do it anymore, um, few things happen. You know, I'm like, I'm, I'm not a photo journalist anymore. Like, oh, well, what do I do? And so, and, and I was like, you know what, I'm kind of cool with that,

had before. Um, and, and so, I just paused. I thought to myself, you know, your work has been

“shaped for 20 years, whether it was intent and intentionally or just by an organic nature being a”

photographer working as an earning and living as a photo journalist. It's really been the content in the aesthetic and everything about it has been driven by photo journalism. And I said, well, if you weren't a photo journalist, if you weren't a photographer making a living as a photo journalist, what would your photography be? What would it look like? And so I asked myself those questions and I said, I don't really know. And I was like, I'm okay with that. Now, when it comes to photography,

the whole infrastructure of the internet rewards speed, post more post faster, be first, be everywhere,

the algorithm doesn't care whether you went deep, it cares whether you showed up yesterday. And I guess that's not photography specific. Now, for me, I built my work around a different bit that there are people who would rather go slowly and understand something fully, then go fast and understand probably nothing. That depth is not a liability, that the work you make when you take your time is categorically different from the work you make when you're chasing the

feed, maybe, or chasing the algorithm. Now, the mood inside us is built on that same bet. It's a private community for photographers and visual artists who are serious about the slow work. We have monthly masterclasses where we actually go deep on craft and thinking we have a weekly book club monthly Q&As. We have the podcast of course, but add free with bonus content and we have direct access to me and my team. It's not another newsletter you'll forget about, not a discord

server full of noise, it's a room with a small number of serious people and a very clear and supportive focus. It's just $19 a month, the link is in the show notes and I really hope I can see you inside. And I'm also really grateful that I don't have to prove my work to my worthiness of my work to myself or to clients anymore. Editorial clients is like, I'm not looking to win awards, I'm not looking to jump in the next best paper, the next best staff position. I'm just none

of that one out the window. The rewards didn't matter anymore, accolades, great story, none of it mattered. It's actually a really great place to be because you're just like, I could do whatever I want, but what is it that I want? And do I, and then I also asked, do I even want to

“be a photographer anymore? Do I, is it, do I need to be? Do I, you know, what does it mean to me?”

What is it? What is it? What is it's role in my life? And so having all these other great things happening, hang out with family, hang out with friends, skating, home studying, making a decent living, working at the five weekends off, I'm just like living large, right? It's the same time, I'm honestly still having this conversation with myself thinking about photography and what, what, where I wanted it, what relationship I wanted it to have with me. And when I did

have that relationship, what did I want my work to be? And because I had the freedom to go any direction that I would want to. So I started getting a little bit of itch again, had they answered all those questions by the camera, put some film in it, still to this day, did you to frame in that camera? That's so wrong man, it's still entitled and so wrong. Why is it? Yeah, it's back there somewhere. I'm not going to get into that. All I'm going to say is I was entitled and I'm

guilty of it and I'm I've never grown up that way, but like I'm just, I bet I share that with people

because like I did it, I bought it, I didn't use it, then life went on. Then a few months later, I bought another camera and this one I thought a little more comfortable with and brought it with me

“was in my truck. That was a, that was a Nikon 850. It's been a while now. I think that's what”

it 850, that's a bit kind of back there somewhere. That's collecting dust. I don't use that one anymore either, but I don't know. I did use it a lot. I got my money where it's just me, but

skating, then I want to just have more of a workhorse, like a tank kind of body, then I'll take that

out and shoot with that. But got that camera sitting with me in my truck. I'm walking out of my doctor's office and I can make connect eyes with this guy and I said, "Oh, man. I've got my truck. I was about to leave." I was like, "You know, those conversations you have with yourself,

“like, you know, you should be taking this person's picture, man, and you're just, you're just like”

thinking of all the reasons why you're not going to. I'm just going to tattoo you on his head. Yeah, the one with the damage tattoo across his forehead. And, you know, it matters like a few seconds. You know, I went through all that mental jargon and then I was like, "All right, you just got to do this, man." You just bought another camera and you're like, "I can use that one now." Like, "What is wrong with you?" So I hopped out, introduced myself. He was down. I knew exactly

I wanted to do the portrait, put on a side, snap some frames, started with a little tear, started dropping down his cheek and I was like, "Oh, it was really cool." And I was like, "I got to get this and shot a few frames of that." And I was like, "I think I'm good." And I said, "Thanks."

“And he took off and I like chased doctrine because I wanted to get his information and went back”

and was like, "Processing the work." Why was he crying? Did you? I didn't ask. I didn't want to know. And part of that reason was like, working as a foot of drones, I would have to go ask him as net first name, last name, why is he crying? You know, the whole thing. And I was more interested in just like the experience and I wanted it to be ambiguous and I didn't want to like, I didn't want to have answer questions for him when I just wanted, I just wanted to do the work.

Make an image and let the audience interpret it. And he's reached out to me a few times and

I've sent some books and things like that. And I still have never to this day asked them.

And I don't want to know and I don't want him to ever tell me, "I don't, I don't, I'm going to find

“him. I need to know." I need to know. So like, I hope he's okay. He's solid. He's solid. He's doing well.”

So that was kind of like the next catalyst for you to that moment. Well, yeah, when I saw the photo, you know, I got a bigger monitor, you know, and it just popped off the screen and I was like, "Man, it's like it's on." So I knew it was back, you know, and I wanted to shoot squares in the 850 Elijah's shoot full-frame squares. And part of that was like, you know, going back and dancing to those questions, some of those questions like, "Well, I wanted

it a different format." Different aspect ratio. I wanted being in Appalachia and kind of thinking more about the light here, but also thinking about work that has been previously done in the region where it also worked that I previously done as a photojournalist being like very rim-wrapped, you know, lit like in a rim-wrapped lighting and super-moody. And I just didn't want to do that. I didn't want the light to sway the audience when we're the other, I guess I took more of kind

of like a vernacular approach or aesthetic. But instead of like, you know, now a new topographic movement, like it was just looking at the landscape and focusing for the graphic and that in a vernacular way, I was trying to approach people in that same concept or mindset. And treated that same theoretic theory in approach. And so that, so I wanted to see if that concept would work in my project and in the series. And so I was applying all these different

playing with all these different ideas and approaches and, you know, images that were not saturated in color, that weren't using rim-wrapped lighting, that weren't using moody light to sway you using a different aspect ratio, moving more towards portraiture and away from the capturing the decisive moment. Everything that was that was a common practice as a photojournalist was like put on the back burner and I wanted to explore everything that I

didn't always get to do just as a photographer. And so that's kind of

where that whole year I allowed me to kind of, I know, was very holistic and allowed me to pursue the type of photography I'm doing now. So let's that photo, um, wonderful photo and I love the story, kind of the seminal moment about you taking it. That then went into black diamonds. Is that

all three of your books, but I want to hear about black diamonds and then 1804 and the polishing house.

“So black diamonds, you know, like I said, you part of the beginning of that story and then”

I was mentioned earlier, you know, we really, I just really ended up going out through my community and this region was referred to as a little city's of black diamonds because it was a very prominent area for coal mining back in the late 1800s to early 1900s and a little bit beyond that. So extraction of the land was a big thing here. And so not only was I looking at, you know, politically how the region was the region really responsible from a, you know, being as

being racist and prejudices and creating this new political movement, who were my neighbors,

got to spend time with people, really explore the region, explore the history of the coal mining

communities and kind of see what the legacy was happening today within these, these coal mine

“former coal mining boom towns. And being very, I was having interested having had interest in local”

history everywhere I've moved, like that was another aspect that I brought into that book. Then again, as I mentioned, it was a very exploratory. It was like a lot of fun to just go out and experience this new community, both from making images, it was exploratory and meeting these people, but also it's very internally and exploratory experience for myself, from a photography perspective and just developing my craft and developing

narrative visual storytelling with myself. So that was the first, like I said, I've always been

making books, but that was the first book that I actually pursued, getting published by the legitimate publisher, then that case it was fall-line press on a banana. Then I went on to do little cities and then moved and then having done those two books. I felt like the amount of work that goes into making books. And if that's maybe this is two things, like one, the amount of work going into making books

but also being from a skate background where we were always like, if you don't have the ramp or you don't have the pool or if you don't have what it is that you want to skate and you never done it, like we're just going to figure it out and like make a pool, build a ramp, whatever, whatever it is we want, we're just going to make it happen, we're going to make the scene happen and craft it and create the opportunity for ourselves and not wait for other people to do it for us.

So with those things in mind or that kind of philosophy in mind, when I came to do 1804 which focuses on the town of Athens City of Athens which is kind of a look at a modern iteration of a company town where the economy is so tied with tied into the local university that without the university, you essentially would be very much like the communities you see in black diamonds.

“My self-included, like, you know, I'm my life, you know, or by living my life is funded through the”

university and that's why I'm here. But when COVID hit people started losing their jobs, myself included, my friends started doing jobs, small businesses started closing. So that's when it kind of reinforced the concept that I already thought, like, you know, hey, this is pretty much of a company town as well. If you're not here in the university, you're struggling. And it's to make like a sustainable living. But at the same time, I also was looking at, you know,

how this, how the youth culture and such a such economic status is and Appalachian culture all kind of created this interesting dichotomy of a community, which is a really beautiful thing with that we're good and bad kind of intersect and grow. And so I went into making 18 or four and just decided that with the other two books, I felt like I did put so much effort into the not only making them helping with the added, helping with the marketing, helping with being

doing a lot of the publicity. And every that goes into, and this is not just unique to me. I mean, everybody that puts a book out has to some degree, do you quite a bit of like work? Um, not just the shooting. There's like the whole business in marketing and of it that nobody really talks about. And so I thought, well, there's no imprints based out of Appalachia and there's no imprints that I could find, I should say, and I don't want to say that none, because they're probably

Larry's corner, they're the imprints that I launched. Um, so I, you know, I was like, there's not,

“there's not a, the book, you know, the imprints based in Appalachia, there's not an imprint owned”

or more operated by an Indigenous person. I was like in a like 2,000, you know, 25, 2,000, 26, 20, 20, 24, whenever, 20, 24, when I started getting it, yeah. I'm like, why that? Why is that the case? Like that's, and then I look at my bookshelf and there's just like most of the imprints are owned by the same demographic. And even a lot of the photographers are just same demographic. And I just was like, man, that's like, can't have history, visual history,

just contained by one dominant community of people or economic class. So I was like, I'm going to just give it a go. I'm going to try. It is what it is. It works cool. And if it doesn't work, that's okay too. I'm going to, but I got to give it a go and see what happens. And so I put out 18 or four in Lyra's corner and we're just going to wing it, man. I love it. The whole skateboarding mentality of just kind of just making it happen. Just the world is your oyster created if you haven't

got it. 100%. That goes with everything, then that'd be books. That's, that's talking about books before we start to wrap up because the photobook industry is extremely niche, but it's almost kind of a lettuce that away and you just touched upon part of that. So what do you think needs to change with the photobook sector of the photobook industry? I don't know, man. I was just talking to another photographer the other day. He just likes his own way of blows well. And we were talking

about different, you know, are you going to do this book show or you're going to do this book fair, that book fair and I was like, man, I'm not trying to dis anybody or call anybody out, but like,

I told him and, you know, I just, I've always kind of tried it. I'm reluctant to be a part of the

whole industry and it's nothing against anybody. It's really my own battle with myself because coming up skating again was, and like, skateboarding was my passion still is, but it was my passion as I was coming up and I was picking up sponsors and I was traveling and entering contest and winning contest and getting acknowledged man, getting some pictures in the skate scenes and stuff and and then one day it just, it felt so diluted and, and like, I wasn't doing it for the right reasons

anymore and I was discouraged by the industry and just it left the really bad taste of my mouth,

“so I walked away from skateboarding for like, I remember the contest was like the last contest I was in,”

I cut my run short, I just picked up my board and weighed my hand like I was done and I walked away and then I quit on my sponsors and I just didn't skate anymore. I skated a little bit but like not the way I was before and I just moved on and that was that kind of at the same time that I was having my, knowing my child was going to be born and so there was a lot going on mentally but I was just done and didn't feel right anymore and so a big part of me is reluctant because trying

to share with the guy I was talking to on the phone and you know, just like, man, I just don't want look like photography or the art of making books to become tainted the way skateboarding was for me and I'm afraid to dive into the pit and go to these, be part of that whole system of and there's nothing like again, like I want to enter it, like I don't know that there's anything wrong with it because I don't go to these things, I don't know what you're trying to say,

“sorry to interrupt but I think it's important that we established what the issue is because I think that”

the photo book, let's just say the book making up the publishing kind of industry around photography that I don't, I feel like it's, it is systemic and there's some issues there but the responsibility has to be on on the publishers themselves and the people behind the publishers to choose the artists in the books that are more diverse that maybe less mainstream that are able to be given voices where and I feel like the smaller independent publishing houses are really trying to do that

so I see some really positive steps, so there's this, it's always this balance because you

feel we all want the photo book industry to be bigger and we all want more people to use photo books and buy photo books, I mean, this really is the essence of the art and the true enjoyment of it but you know, when you kind of try to expand and grow in industry, there's always

speaking to just kind of a common homogenous ground that no one really wants to be a part of any

more and it can quickly devolve into something that's just a commercial machine so it's always

like there's balance of commercial success, I mean you started your public, you know, the imprint and publishing house for a specific reason, now what are you going to do with it, right? How are we going to promote those types of causes that are behind a publisher, not necessarily the biggest system

“in itself, so I think there's there's there's nuances of course and there's responsibilities on both”

size of the fence but I think we have to take individual or say we I'm not a publisher but having spoken to many of these publishers and they're, again there's commercial pressures but a lot of them are trying to find the the lesser known artists, the more unique artists, the more the people that are able to offer more diverse and interesting unique perspectives through the art, whether it's the medium itself and the way the book is made and the texture, etc or it's the art

work itself, I do see that yet I understand completely what you're saying and agree with it

wholeheartedly, just don't know what the solution is, I mean I'm sorry to kind of take over that,

but I think I think it's a complicated area but if we look at the whole, if we look at the goal,

“what's the goal that we want to contribute to right with photographs and I think the main goal”

is just to get it in more people's hands, get photographs in more people's hands and yeah you're going to get those mainstream and those kind of historically warped or tunnel visioned publishers and books that are going to keep on coming but I have seen just in the last few years little and last five to ten, a lot more independent publishers, a lot more self publishing has which is, that's gotta be a good thing, right? I think for sure. I think for sure, I think from

for a liar's corner niche I was trying to reach is looking at marginalized and underrepresented

communities and artists and just the goal is not necessarily, at least the short term goal isn't necessarily to build this brand that's going to be even a smaller, well-received imprint like I

“would say, a trespasser or deadbeat because they're doing wonderful things but ideally I think”

would be interesting to just provide more of a mentorship and a avenue or a channel where you don't, I don't need you to come in and be a photographer at the certain specific level. Obviously there has to be some degree of excellence in what you're doing but ideally you're emerging and I'm finding that I'm able to find you a home to put these this work body of work into and teach you the knowledge that I have which still have a lot more

to learn myself but I'm certainly enough to help you get a book into the world. Hopefully that book that you put out will help catapult your career or just build your career that much more until you're at a point where potentially yeah you could be picked up by a much larger or more respectable or an imprint that has much larger reach than something I have that I have to keep a ability to do because we like we all need some love and we need like

not everyone's going to come rolling out and look to the gate like ready to be picked up by you know even the independent public sure that's on the level of trespass or deadbeat or you know Mac was doing really great stuff for quite a while but unfortunately they're the now I will see unfortunately but they have turned a different down a different road it seems like and they're focusing a lot on on eight twenty four and kind of that content and that's fine

that's the thing I you know and a little sad because I really did like the the artists that they were supporting for quite a while I think voids doing some really really wonderful work lately been super super hyped on a lot of stuff they're doing yeah yeah so I'm just you know and so I'm not I'm not anywhere near that level I'm just hoping I can bring in you know people that are looking to kind of do a lot of the DIY themselves and like and I'm just going to be straight

with artists that I work with like this is what I'm going to need from you this which should anticipate can you buy it all up all of this off and chew it and swallow it and like make it happen because it's just kind of what you're going to need to do and ideally get to the point where

thousand dollars on their own so um that's a lot for everybody there's a big barrier to

entering and you know like we've talked about this that can be I always say good thing but it

can can I guess weed out maybe the the the work that may not be deserving of a book or you know I'm talking for my own personal experience having had it had some impact for reviews and wanting to make a book but but more importantly it's a huge barrier it seems to be like you have to pitch to 200 publishers to even get a chance of the conversation of one of them and even then you've got it like say raise all those funds and then you're saying what the

focus the point of it yeah like what just to just for me to feed my ego and say oh I've got a book yeah maybe there's some career ladder progressions from it you're not going to earn any

“money from it you might be lucky to get money back so then there's like you either you have to go”

like fool in at the deep end or you self publish and if you don't know what you're doing like that's even bigger risk so I feel like you're you're kind of attacking an niche in the market which is sorely needed so um good as to you and um don't be surprised if you get an email from me next week about what yeah I mean you know I know you know what we'll see what happens man like it's like so good for you yeah if I could say we don't work for me then at least maybe I

planted a seed and the next person's head and they can build off what I kind of try to do and then it goes from there like it's all good man you know a short note before we close for a while now

the first thing I've done most mornings before the camera or any other work or before the coffee

“before the endless tabs is set 10 20 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise”

does it has it just made me comment in the way people imagine it's made me more honest more mindful more compassionate and more free in more ways than I could even describe and that honesty and introspective clarity more than any lens workshop or book is really what changed my photography the work I make now comes from a quieter place with more clearness and calmness I notice what I'm reaching for and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing the inner critic

still talks still exists I just don't believe everything he says anymore the app I've used for most of this is waking up by Sam Harris it's the one tool I genuinely kept returning to all this time this is not a paid sponsorship from them however I am an affiliate partner and for good reason

“I believe that this app is worth it more than any other what's kept me there for years is that it's”

not just one thing is a guided daily meditation which is the spine of it for me but they're also short daily reflections a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background and these little moments they call it of awareness you can drop into during the day two minute reset when the

head starts running there's also an entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have

found on my own and a lot more besides that it keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine so a link sits in the show notes for a free 30 day trial and 20% discount on their subscriptions if you want the longer story though of how meditation reshaped my work there's also a piece linked through my sub-stack page called there's no self-development without self-awareness anyway I hope you enjoy it thanks for listening thank you so much for

talking to me it's been your certainly a huge inspiration and I encourage everyone to go and buy your books check you out where can people find you other than I guess just website are you present social media tell people where we are yeah on this example I'm at the Coon F is in Frank ACU and as a Nancy in my last name website same thing for coon.com super easy or live corner dot press where well well listen those in the descriptions and yeah lastly just to say thank you thanks

so much for your time and your evening hopefully we'll speak again and in the meantime take a care and look forward to seeing what you might be working on at the moment which we didn't talk about but I and I keep because I'm close to chest you got some stuff well we'll keep

is happening yeah we'll get there I'll get there but thanks for having me mad I really I was a pleasure speaking with you and I appreciate your time