Rock Legend Roland Orzabal on Life, Astrology, and Tears for Fears

- Hello, and welcome to the nerve.

We are back. We are off our summer schedule. It is new episodes all week long. I am your host. We're in Callahan.

“We have a great post Labor Day show for you.”

Or if you're not in America, it's a post holiday. Episode today, we are going to be joined by a musical genius, a legend, Roland Orzabal, co-founder, lead singer of the Legendary Band, Tears for Fears.

We are talking about his fascinating new memoir. Instant New York Times bestseller. Welcome to your life. Love, death, and tears for Fears. What he calls his astrological beliefs,

his astrological memoir,

and the explosive rise of a band

that remains as relevant today. And then we've got trouble maker, feedback, and so we ask, are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go.

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and leasinger of the legendary pop rock band Tears for Fears, Roland or Zabal. He's also the author of "Welcome to Your Life." Love, death, and tears for Fears. What he calls his astrological memoir

and it is already a New York Times bestseller. Roland, welcome to the nerve. - Thank you. Congratulations on the book. - Thank you.

- It's on like any other rock and roll memoir I've ever read. It's clear that you are a seeker. But before we get into that, Tears for Fears, I mean, very few bands remain as if not more relevant.

30 years on, 40 years on as Tears for Fears have. I have to tell you, I find myself, I listen to your music all the time. And there's one particular song, I really wanna ask you about.

But I have this sort of working theory that of all of the bands to emerge from the '80s, in such an enormous way that Tears for Fears to me is the ultimate Cold War band. - Right, Tears for Fears,

the ultimate Cold War band. - Meaning that I think your lyrics, the arrangements, you toggled much like you two between sort of anthemic, bombast, and then real personal, soft intimacy and vulnerability.

Something about your music in the '80s to me,

always just sort of captured that kind of constant

fear that we all were living with. - Oh, we were living with the fear. There's no doubt about it. I mean, you know, I mean, in those days when I was in my early '20s,

and yeah, of course, I was worried about the state of the world, the US Soviet relations, that this mutually a sure destruction that we were all living with. And I blamed, I blamed the older people,

And that's where I was coming from,

“and it seems to me that nothing much has changed.”

Only I've got an older, and there's now probably an acceptance that things aren't gonna change too much, unfortunately. - I think that's why your music is remains as relevant.

I really do. I listen to songs like 'Pale Shelter' or 'Mothers Talk' which you write about in the book. - Yeah. - And 'Pale Shelter', this is remarkable.

I did not know this. You write in your memoir. You were 19 years old. - Yeah.

- It was the second song written for tears for fears.

- Yeah. - 'Pale Shelter' you wrote as you said, 'A Love Song' to your parents. And I couldn't tell if you were being ironic, or cheeky, or genuine, or a combination of the three.

- No, I meant it. I mean, at the time, pretty much all of his songs were about I say more to do with the child parent relationship than 'Boy Me Scope'. - Yes.

- 'Pale Shelter' could easily be understood as a love song from a boy to a girl, you know. But no, it was definitely one of many, I wrote to my parents, you know. - Okay, Roland, I'd love to just dig into this a little bit more

because I know you're again, as I said, you're a seeker, primal scream therapy, has informed your life, your music, this book, the lyrics to 'Pale Shelter'. Okay, just a couple, you don't give me love,

you give me pal Shelter. You don't give me love, you give me cold hands. - Yes. - Okay, it's a love letter to your parents. - Yeah, I mean, you know, I gotta say.

(laughing) I mean, I love my mom, you know, I still do. - Of course, of course. - You still alive and I guess in the early 60s, we were in a situation where, you know, my mother was kind of been

abused by my father.

“And I think that was taking up a lot of a hot space, you know.”

And maybe in a better environment, she could have been, you know, possibly more generous with her love than she had been at the time. - No, I understand, you know, you wrote, I'm sure she is, I'm sure she is.

And I, I didn't mean to put you on the spot with that. I just, I find the lyrics so evocative and it's why your band resonates because we all understand complicated emotions and feelings towards our parents,

especially the child that forever lives within. - Yeah, that's true, yeah. Good way looking at it. - I think so, you write about, you know, you had a very unusual upbringing and for a time,

your father had, I guess the word I would use was sort of the annexed or repurposed one room in your house where he set up a photography studio. And he began sort of working and your mother is sort of one of his subjects

in nude photography, which then you write sort of graduated into producing basically soft pornography. - I don't know where that came from, I actually been honest with you. I mean, he took pictures of naked women.

- Oh no. - Obviously women because he was trying to sell them

“to other people as strippers, you know, this is what?”

- Right. - I don't think it was, it was not soft porn, or soft porn in those days was just, you know, women going toop this. And we had, you know, magazines like Flirt and Skirt

and all that kind of stuff which was, this was pre the Sun page three in England

which always featured topless women and became a,

everyday occurrence for the working class who'd buy that paper. But no, I mean, that was the extent of it as far as I knew. I mean, he was a little bit, what can I say?

Deviant, but I don't want to go into that, you know? - I understood, you know. - I understood, I only brought it up because you did write about it in the book and it's all of these things that inform you

as I said, writing a song like Pail Shelter

“at 19 years old is incredible and very early on,”

you and Kurt Smith, your partner and tears for fears. Find yourself working with some really heavy hitters. You're working with Peter Gabriel's producer while he's making security, the song Shock The Monkey. You are working at Abbey Road

while recording the herding, you know, you are coming of age musically at a time, which I find fascinating, because it's so clear that you guys are on the, you're going to be huge. I don't know if you were the artist saw it then.

Did you see it? - No, no. - No, it's all, you're very kind. And, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing, you know, but at the time, no, I mean, I was, you know, aware of my own inability, you know, we were young kids

and we couldn't ever mimic the albums we loved. Like, Pete's Gabriel, talkin' heads, David Bowie. No, we tried, but in the process of attempting that, we came up with quite a unique sound, which you heard on the hurting.

- Yeah.

“- But I was more concerned, I think I was more concerned”

with a message, 100%, the message I was evangelical. I thought this was a philosophy, primal screen, primal therapy, Alvilliano. This was the therapy, this was the theory, this was the philosophy that was gonna heal the world.

That's what I thought. - Primal screen therapy, you know, I have a glancing familiarity with it. And it wasn't until I was reading your book and I realized how deeply this informed you

as a younger man, my understanding of it is that the idea is that by engaging in literally primal screen therapy, screaming from the inside, forget it, am I right?

Or-- - Well, I never heard a scream.

I think that was a kind of like, it's kind of her hyperbally, it's kind of a metaphor. - Okay. - I was in therapy, primal therapy four years, I was in group therapy, which was very scary.

At times, you know, we had people who'd been in Warthorn, Venezuela, and they were trying to work out some of those trauma. So it was pretty ugly. We had people expressing themselves loudly in Austrian

which can sound scary as well. But no, I never heard scream, I heard-- - So how does it work, though, Roland? Because you wrote about being introduced at one point to a room where there were mattresses on the walls

and the floors. So it does seem as though there's something about getting the emotion out physically, right? - Yeah, there is outside of it. - I give an example.

The example of a woman who's been attacked by a saline, terrible old deal where she is extremely vulnerable. And she hasn't got time while the attack is occurring to feel the emotions because she's trying to survive. She'll do lots of things.

She'll want to run, flight, yeah? Fight. She'll want to fight off the assailant or she'll freeze because she can't do those two. What happens, the emotion gets stored

in the back of the brain and then has a power over you because it needs to be expressed for you to be as healthy and as whole as you were before that horrible thing happened. Because we are used to repressing bad feelings.

So bad feelings get repressed and then they have an effect upon you. The terrible effect, you know, they can lead to all kinds of things, you know, a addiction for one thing as a desperate need

to quash the bad feelings. And it's only through expressing these bad feelings these trauma that we can become whole again if that makes sense. - It doesn't make sense.

“It's very much, it's the body keeps the score, right?”

It's gonna come out one way or the other. - You got it. - So how is it, are you still an adherent? - No, I did, is it says on the book, I did it for, this is another thing about astrology,

astrology, I was, you know, this is what it says in the book,

my progress sun was in Virgo for the first 30 years

of my life. I'm Alia, by the way, you. - That tracks. - Your sun progresses every degree for every year, okay?

there was something wrong with me.

That is a Virgo in perspective. I stopped therapy. It coincided with two things. One, my first sun was born, Raul. And therefore when I saw him,

my childhood was finished, it was over. It was miraculous. It was just this thing in front of me was needed looking after. The inner child was gone to some degree.

- Wow, wow. - And also coincided with my progress sun, entering Libra, which is not a sign associated with self-analysis, yeah? - Oh, I didn't know that.

We all think, those of us who have a casual relationship with astrology, I mean, you are, you are granular, you can talk about it.

Libra, we always think of the scales of seeking balance,

harmony, muting, yeah, that takes, yeah. - But that actually does make sense

“when I think of the Libra in Zive Known.”

I'm not terribly introspective. - When's your birthday? - December 20th, I'm a Sagittarius. - Very nice. - Oh, you think so?

- I do, yeah. - What can you tell, what can you give me in a thumbnail sketch that makes that a good thing? - Well, I can explain it this way. And I've said this before.

I read a book, a long time ago, and I can't remember the name got lost in the move. But it was said this, it's, you know, if you walk into a good, you know, store books, store like bands and no,

we'll need to go to the mind's body and spirits thing. There it has an astrology, astrology section. You'll see 12 books of divination for the year ahead from areas through to Pisces. - Right, right, right.

- Now you would think over a 10 year period, if there was nothing going on with the star signs, that all those books would sell roughly the same. But as it happens, the ones that sell the most are Scorpio and Sagittarius,

and the ones that sell the least are the opposite signs of tourists in Gemini. So what does that tell you? It means that you as a Sagittarian, possibly with a little bit of Scorpio,

a little bit of Capricorn because you're right at the end. A Sagittarian wants to make sense of life. Completely.

“The meaning of life is the Sagittarian concept.”

You know, you're, I don't know if you know who fed Puerto Rico fasciners, he's a... - No. - He invented the Silicon chip among... - Oh, the Silicon chip, oh my God, okay.

- Yeah, he's written a book called "Ereducible." Now, his, he's, you know, was the scientist and he became an idealist. And he's Sagittarian, December 1, December 1. It's kind of, everything he talks about

is typically Sagittarian. So you're also the day before my mother. Anyway. - Oh, wow. - No kidding.

So would you consider your mom on, she on the cusp with that truly be Sagittarian Capricorn? - No, what, the way I see it, there is no such thing as a cusp. So what happens if you all near another sign,

to the beginning of a sign or the end of a sign, then you're gonna have, say, for instance,

“you're December 20, I believe your Mercury”

and Venus is in Sagittarius or Capricorn, possibly even Aquarius and possibly Scorpio as well,

because Venus and Mercury are never too far from the Sun.

So therefore you'll be a blend, you'll be possibly a blend of Sagittarius and Capricorn, but that's not a bad thing, because Capricorn's gonna bring you down to Earth. - Interesting.

I really do have to get my actual chart done. - You should. - Yeah, it's just a matter of nailing down my birth time. That's it, by the way, how important is that in getting a true chart done, a treat needle chart?

- It's vital, it's vital, okay. - I mean, you can, what you can do, you can actually an astrology, it can work out, it's called rectification. So you go to the astrology, and they look at the main points

of your life, the ups and downs, the triumphs and tragedies, all this kind of stuff, career, publishing, all kinds of stuff, and they can work out roughly when you're born, for instance. I mean, it's sans crazy, but it's true.

- That's incredible. - Yeah. - One of the things about you writing about your astrology, and I wonder how you, if you approach it in this way,

I think most of us think astrology might be able

but whatever is coming for us, as of this moment is unknown, right? Prepare for it. - Prepare. - Do you see it that way?

“And if so, were there blind spots that you,”

as much as you know, still surprised you? - 100%, 100%, you, yeah, most people want to use astrology if they accept that it works as a way of predicting the future, so they can prepare themselves for it.

But you can't go and see an astrologer, and they say, oh, you're gonna move married twice. - Well, I'm married now to a great person, and they say, well, yeah, you're gonna marry again. Where?

Why? You're living inside this machine. You can't see far ahead. If you look over the horizon, it's dangerous.

It can be sometimes it's amazing,

but a lot of the time is dangerous. So I've only read one book on predictive astrology, and it's so complex, so complex. And I listen to countless astrologers

“on YouTube who are predicting certain things”

that don't necessarily occur. So I am very careful about predictive astrology, the way I use it is to understand myself where I'm coming from, what I'm gonna need of, what are my energies,

and I also use it to see what is going on in my life now. What are the principles at work? What is the metaphor that I'm living with in? Yeah. - Interesting.

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I'd like to get back to your early years for a moment in tears for fears, because I have to tell you, I laughed out loud when you wrote about how much you-- well, I didn't laugh out loud about this. I loved your admission that you guys are coming up,

and you're looking at all of the British artists coming out of the new wave, like, "Depesh mode," and feeling like everybody else had it figured out. They had the look, they had the sound, they had the cool.

And you guys were still in your mind, not quite getting there.

“Can you take us back a little bit to what that scene was like?”

Yeah, so this is early on, this is 1983. And we'd already been on top of the pops. We were kind of instance, success. We were in all the kids, the teen magazines, and yeah, a lot of attention, we kind of made it.

We'd been on top of the pops. But I was a king watcher, and I was a fan of music

all stopped on what I always struggled with music,

with my music, so when you were writing a song, you never think it's any good, not until it's in the charts. But I watched the pops, and as it says in the book, there was one program where, you know, "Depesh mode," it was playing a video of everything counts.

And there was another about Ann called Lotus Eaters, and who are another duo, and I just completely got depressed.

And I just wondered what the point of the whole thing was.

“But it was, you know, a year later, or less a year later,”

where I found myself, you know, home writing the everybody on the school, the world, and shout, and all these kinds of things. And then all of a sudden, that changed our trajectory trajectory completely.

And we were working on something, and our journey continued, where sees a love out, where we no longer sounded like early tears, but there's, we no longer sounded like the Pesh Mode or any of those guys at all.

- It's amazing how quickly you worked out your sound.

It's amazing, and when you go through the list of hits that you had one after the other, after the other, it's, I mean, so few bands have that kind of catalog. You, the thing I was going to say that maybe laugh out loud, Roland, was when you wrote about how much

you really did not like Joe Strummer. - Oh no, I liked it. - No, that is a person. But the clash, like you liked the glam. You were into the bowies and the blondies,

“and Joe Strummer to you, it was too much of the street, I think.”

- Yeah, I mean, you know, let's be honest. It was a clash for amazing. - Of course, of course. - But they were in a, they were in a, you know, totally punk or post punk, and we were, we came just a few years

after that, and they were no longer relevant, you know. But, and, you know, come to 1985, we're absolutely huge, and I said, as I said, in the book, you know, we're at this sort of exhibition slash party in a restaurant in London, it's all of us.

All of it is for peers, and some of the girlfriends as well, but we're at this long table, and Joe Strummer sat there with a couple of ladies, bit older than me, as I say in the cloud of cool. Because he's cool, I mean, you know, and he says to me,

hey, Roland, you're only a fiber, I think of what? He gets, because on sand and Easter, I said, and everybody wants to rule the world. - Oh, wow. - You know, I should have spoken to the guy, 'cause I had a feeling that he was actually fun.

He'd done, but I didn't, I just got up, I didn't have a fiber, I had a 10, and I signed it and it gave it to him. - That's funny. - That's funny. - Yeah, that was funny.

- You wrote about, you write about to the first time

tears for fears or in LA, which is so,

“I think you're at the sunset marquee, as one does,”

when one is a rock star. - Yeah. - And you realize, I wanna ask you about this in particular, this is another, you've made it moment. You see Bruce Springsteen down by the pool,

and then you go out to dinner at Lidome and you see Lionel Richie. When you saw Springsteen by the pool, it's Springsteen capable of being by the pool and like a pair of trunks or was he in full,

Springsteen drag. - Full, full Springsteen gear. Looking, like was on the cover of one of his albums,

we still have some big boots, denim jeans, incredible.

I think he had a handkerchief hanging out of his pocket, as well. - It's incredible. And then you write about encountering Bono for the first time. - Yeah. - And you write, I have it here on page 156,

you write about your favorite U2 album is Autumn Baby. Same. And again, it's this Cold War post-war thing happening. Can you talk to us about why you believe Autumn Baby is their best record?

- Wow. Well, first of all, say that Autumn Baby was released the same day as my first song was born. - Really? - November 18, 1991.

And what it was you to had changed gear. They changed direction, they were completely influenced by, I would say, RAID music. You know, the drum and bass, which was so heavy in RAID music at the end of the 80s,

it was incredible. And they did, they took the left turn, all of a sudden. And Bono was a, he became a different character. - Do you roll in, in that sense, you know, saying that you associate it, you know,

the birth of your son, Autumn Baby's release? Do you ever look at your albums or other bands albums by their astrological sign? Like would you consider like what would Autumn Baby would it have the same sign as your son,

being, would it be born on that date? - Yeah, it would have the same, that would have a similar birth chart.

- Yeah, I mean, everything is a birth chart.

Not just an album, and I say this in the book. You all birth chart doesn't say whether you are a human being, a poodle, the birth of unified Germany,

or a operatic society, it's a map of the, the planets and light. You'd have to look at the exact, the state, I don't quite sure what that is. I'd really time, I don't quite sure what that was.

- Oh, oh, yeah. And then of course, that could get complicated too, because you've got, okay, I want to read this to you. This also goes to the other bands of the time and mad world, which you write.

Your producer was like, this is, this is not just a B side that you could only ever see it as a B side. - Yeah. - Which I assume you meant, it was good, but not great. In your mind, in other people, we're saying it's great.

- Well, I didn't think it was a hit, no. - Why didn't you think it was a hit? - I don't know, I don't think I've ever, ever been very good at that kind of stuff. Okay, I went into recorded demo with

the drama scene and synthesizers and put it together in a very complex way. And then I'm in cursing it, it had a new life. It was just wonderful. And it was only I took it into the record company,

polygram, to play it to them as a potential B side for Pell's Shelter. And I was Dave Bassard, A&R Man, listened to it a couple of times, you know, frowning, and he said that's not a B side, that's a single.

And you know, I picked very enough, that was easy. - Of mad world, you write. You were still struggling, you were married

to your first wife, Caroline,

who was working two jobs. One is a bartender, one is a waitress to help support you guys. You write the radio played constantly as I listened for something new

to catch my ear and push me into writing.

“I think this one will surprise even the most devoted”

tears for Fier's fan. Tucked in amidst the chart toppers was girls on film by Durand Ran, crockling through the radio, speaker, proud and slightly glam, that's so great.

It was the rhythm of the guitar that spoke to me, I decided to try it out mad world, the song that I had been unsure about, now came easily. It was partly inspired by Janov, the primal scream guru. And then you quote this lyric,

"The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had." - Yeah. - Can you talk me through that line? What is that line of-- So again, that's directly from Janov's writings.

So he would explain about dreams and about the potency of dreams. So when you're having an extremely dark dream, then that can let off more energy than when you dream just about a walk

in the park or a beautiful ocean. So this is simple as that. He's talking about it's kind of a letting act of some of this terrible mental stress which can be expressed during a very dark and vivid dream.

So that's it. - I wonder how common I've certainly had dreams in which I'm going to die. - Oh dear, I'm sorry. - In a catastrophic accident, really, no, really.

Like, and I, because I wonder how common they are. And then in those dreams, I'll say to myself,

“the only way you might save yourself is if this is a dream”

and you have got to open your eyes, open your eyes

and then I always wake up.

- Yeah, well, you're lucky, yeah, lucky you wake up. I mean, I've had to do that at times, but then that's been sort of what's the word, just where I cannot move, you know, I'm frozen in bed and, you know.

- Oh, I think that's very common too. I've definitely had that. - The problem is, you know, terrible. - What is that about? - Dunno.

- No. - I'm not an expert. - The line, the dreams in which I'm dying or the best I've ever had, I also think could be interpreted as ego death.

- Well, I like your interpretation, but that's not why I'm in. - I love it. I love it.

“I think the best lyrics are always the ones”

that are like-- - Multiple meanings, yeah. - Yeah, I have to ask you about this one journalists, a description of tears for fears, which I loved. I don't know if you loved it at the time. The thinking girls were--

(laughs) - I didn't, I liked it. - It's great. - Yeah, it's lovely.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I liked it because I can see one,

but I can see that, you know, I guess it meant there was a difference, you know, between us and that wonderful duo, because we included thought, and I'm not saying that the worm is thought, it's not a tool.

I love them more now than I ever did, but yeah, at the time we were more concerned about sort of slightly intellectual matters you might want to say. - Two more questions before we regrettably have to let you go.

“For time, you, I think, probably had one of the longest”

marriages in rock and roll history. - Yeah. - I know it's gotta be tough. You can't explain it in a line or two, but why do you think you were able to sustain a marriage?

You write that you weren't perfect, you know, you were a rock star, the things that come with it. But why do you think you were able to sustain a marriage for so long? - Patience and forgiveness.

So because both me and Caroline did some things which were not conducive to a healthy marriage, but then when you get into that situation, you know, can you manage to do you actually believe

that it's more important to stay together for your, but the good of you, then break up. And we only got to one point, it was when I was doing around with the Kings of Spain, where, yeah, we got things got really bad.

And we saw a marriage guidance counselor and we were talking about separation.

“We did have a physical separation at the time,”

but when we came back together, all I said was, you know, do I want to be with her today? And the answer was yes. And then the next day, I would say the same thing,

do I want to be with it today? And the answer is yes. So that's, you know, it wasn't easy because we were, you know, as you say, you know, I was involved in the entertainment industry,

it was on tour a lot. And we were both islands, you know, but we both did our own thing. Yeah, there was never,

she was never clingy, not at all.

And the norm was I really. And I think probably because of that, sort of, you know, individualism meant we could carry on with some partnership. And then we had kids, of course.

And then you were together

“because you want to cope, Aaron, feeling.”

- My last question to you is, is a much more general broader, impersonal one, but when you look out on the pop rock scene today, you know, are there any artists that you like, that you think are the real deal

that have the potential for the longevity that tears for fears had? And has. - Well, you know, I suppose my favourite, and at the moment I'm particularly young,

but I just love gorillas, you know? - Yeah. - Don't think my album's doing this, he's a clever bastard, you know? - David Alvar and he's a genius.

Yeah, he's a genius. So that's my love at the moment, yeah. - Love it. Roland, thank you for joining us on the nerve.

And again, congratulations on your incredible,

insightful, sensitive book. - Thank you very much. - You take care. - Same to you. - Bye bye.

- Bye. Coming up, trouble maker, feedback. We are back in a minute. (upbeat music) As we head into colder months,

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this came in from trouble maker Allison in the UK. And I loved this email for many reasons, but mainly because it would not have occurred to me otherwise to talk about this. This Friday is the 25th anniversary of September 11.

I am coming to you from New York. I was in New York on that day. I will read from Allison's email. I hope you don't mind me asking,

never trouble makers with the 25th anniversary

of 9/11 approaching. Could you please spare a moment and talk about your memories and experiences? I hope this doesn't come across as Macabre. I would just simply like to hear your story

told in your own way many thanks Allison. I remember that day very vividly. I had an apartment in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And this was even in 2001. This was well before the real development of that area.

Like exploded. Like when I moved there, it was like tumbleweeds. And there were avenues you did not go on. One stark, one starkness fell. And today, north six street is Chanel and Hermes.

You couldn't make it up. Anyway, I say that because I was living in this fifth floor walk up on the corner of Bedford in north seventh. And I had an unobstructed view of the East River and the skyline of Manhattan.

From the Twin Towers, the World Trade Center to like the Chrysler building. It was just unobstructed. And I had that apartment for something like ridiculously cheap.

It was like 800 bucks a month. And I was getting ready for work. I was working at Spin Magazine at the time. And I got a phone call. Someone told me that a plane had crashed into one of the towers

at the World Trade Center.

“I think it was my brother who called me.”

And he said, don't get on the subway. Don't go into work. This could be a terrorist attack. And I went to my window and I saw plumes of black smoke, like clouds, plumes coming out of one of the towers.

The tower was still-- it hadn't collapsed. It hadn't begun. It's collapse. And then I turned on the news.

I think I've been listening to Howard Stern. They were a little bit late coming on with it. But nobody could fathom that it would be a terror attack on US soil. And then a passenger commercial jetliner would have been the--

it just nobody could even conceive of that. And then I think my mother called me. And I was watching it outside my window. And then I didn't see the plane.

But what I did see was the explosion in the second tower.

And that was just fireballs, fireballs, fireballs, at about the exact same height, like three quarters up. And then there was just no question that it was terror attack. And that New York was under attack. I mean, the rest of that day is a blur.

“I really don't remember much of that day.”

Everything shut down. Everything shut down. The roadways were shut down. The airspace was shut down. And then, of course, we heard about the plane crashing

into the Pentagon, the plane that went down in Pennsylvania. There were other rumors that there was another plane heading to the West Coast. The target was Disneyland. And then I remember--

I couldn't get out of the city. And my brother, Bill, from Brooklyn, he was like, I'm coming to get you. And I was like, it's fine. It's going to be fine.

Nothing. I don't think anything else is going to happen. Like the airspace is shut down. And the US military is up there. I don't think anything is going to happen.

But he insisted, and he got me.

And I have never been in a car with him driving so fast.

And not much rattles him. But he was determined that I would get home to Long Island. Smash cut to the day after. And I was at my parents' house where I had been raised. My dad, we had the TV on, of course,

and it was on a loop. And I was sitting on the couch with my cousin Tim,

“as I remember it, who's only like a year older than I am.”

And I had worked down there. Now that I remember, he had like an attachment to the World Trade Center. He had worked down there when I was in college. And he would come to my student apartment a bit to hang out.

Anyway, my dad had like laced up his boots and gotten his lunch and was heading into work in Brooklyn. And I'm sitting there on the sofa with Tim. And I'm watching this footage and tears are streaming down my face.

Like, I'm not like crying, I'm not shaking. It's just tears streaming down my face. And I remember him turning to me and he said, worrying, you have got to get it together. And he turned and walked out and went to work.

And I turned to my mother. And after he left, I said, what is wrong with him? What is wrong with him? And she said to me, he saw things in Vietnam. I was in, oh, she said.

“And then I remember going back into the city,”

like a day or two later, I was like, I have to go back. I have to go back. And I was so, I don't know, it was anyone who was there and lived through it, it all, it alters you. But I remember going back and my father said to me,

the day I was going back, he said, listen to me. I want you to meet up with your friends and go out tonight. And it was the best advice he ever could have given. And I mean, people were petrified. I was petrified to get on the subway

and go underneath the East River from Williamsburg to Lower Manhattan. And I remember letting one train go by and there were cops everywhere. And I looked at one of the police officers

like patrolling the subway platform

“and I said, is this okay, like can I get on the train?”

He was like, you can get on the train. I mean, people were gentle with each other in New York in the days and weeks after. And I got on that train and I remember meeting my friends at a bar and getting off that train though.

And this was 14th street and being hit with the smell of it was death. It was burning, burning bodies.

But I always, always, always, carry that lesson

from my father that you don't meet stuff like this with fear. You get on with it, you get on with it. So Allison, I haven't thought about that in a very long time. But thank you for your very thoughtful question and email and everyone will be marking September 11th

with every bit of gravity, it deserves at least decent people. Keep your feedback coming. Email me at [email protected] or DM me on Instagram at moring. Call a hand writer or at the nerve show.

And remember, please subscribe to the nerve sub-stack that is our weekly email full of bonus original content and you can sign up for that over at the nerve show.com plus nerve merch grab something for yourself or pick something up for a fellow troublemaker

such as a top level shit baseball cap. That's at shopthener.com and we will see you back here tomorrow for the nerve at night, a new episode of the nerve

where you will never guess what we're about to say next.

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