The Price of Freedom Is Discomfort

Normal is broken common sense is weird so we're here to help you transform your life.

From the Ramsey Network and the Fair Wins Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show. One day Ramsey, Jay Bosch, a Ramsey personality, number one best selling author, is my co-host today. The phone number here is AAA, 825, 5225, Matthews and Chicago. What's up, Matthew? Hi, Dave.

“So, I was just, you know, reaching out and keeping an eye on your stuff for years and I think”

I'm looking for some advice because I cured a lot of debt throughout the years, including my son, you know, he got a car, V1 is very young so the NICU will add it on my credit card and over the years it just kept occurring in debt and interest. So, you didn't have health insurance? I did, but my co-pay and deductible is extremely high.

We don't have great insurance with my employer. Extremely hard to find. Yeah, it's like 20 grand or something? Or like 7 grand. It's about, it's about 8,000.

Okay.

And how much did you have today, Matthew?

I owe about, right now I paid down 25% of about 70,000 in credit cards. How much did you have today, Matthew? Um, a hundred and 90,000. And 70 of that currently is on credit cards, what's the rest of it? One car and what do you owe on the car?

I owe about 33,000. Okay, that's 100. What's the other 90? About 80,000 is on my, my mortgage, that's all I have left for now. Okay.

Okay.

“So your sons, Nick, you say, did not cause your debt, mathematically?”

Not necessarily. No, not not, not period. It was just one debt. Period. You have a hundred thousand dollars in debt, eight grand, what's your sign?

So you know, that's not, that's not what you'd lead with in your mind anymore. You caused your debt when you bought a freaking car you couldn't afford. Not your kid. There. No, okay.

That's what the math says. Okay. Cool. I love it. Um, I make about 80,000 dollars a year, 90,000.

Okay, your wife worked outside the home? Um, yeah, she does, but she dropped part time ever since we had a kid. Yeah. But I've made a rough. And how's the baby doing?

She doing okay? Pretty good. Yeah, good. Great. Praise God.

That's an important thing, right? Sure. Good. Good. Okay.

So we got you making 80 and her making part time money might be 20 or something. Uh, about 40? Okay. Okay. That's worth it with and you owe a hundred plus your house.

Uh, correct. Okay. Cool. Well, that's not very bad. I actually, I, I sold my Tesla a few days ago because I, I guilty in it.

So I sold that and now I have some play money to play with. How much play money? Um, about 15,000. Cool. Cool.

Great. The Tesla, that, that wasn't the $33,000 car that's a separate car, it's the same one. No, this is separate car. Um, I have a Honda Accord now. Okay.

“Can we sell that one or how far upside down are you?”

Um, I'm upside down maybe like eight on that. Well, you've got 15, so we could essentially, you can sell that car and buy two cars with what's left, two hoop teeth. True. Why wouldn't you do that?

And you have no car payments and you'd be down to attack on the credit cards. Correct. Um, and your wife will hate Dave Ramsey. Pretty heavy. You can blame me instead of hurt.

You can blame me instead of you. But yeah.

Uh, they, uh, okay, here's the thing.

You got two ways to go out this, Matthew, um, here's what I know about you, okay. You already are taking action. You already know where you are and so you're way ahead of the game. This is the time I got to talk people into getting to where you are before they call. Okay.

And so you're already there. You already sold a Tesla. I got some money to move around here. I got some things. You got to buy a car out of that money, right?

'Cause you're only down to one car. Correct. Okay. All right. And so you got two ways to go out this.

One way, uh, you and your, either way, you start with you and your wife sit down, do a detailed budget on every dollar tonight, where every dollar of the $140,000 a year is going each

Number two, we're cutting up every single credit card.

No excuses. Okay. These things have ruined your life. They're not a blessing. Okay.

Number three, then you decide, are we going to fight this for a little while, go buy a $5,000 or $7,000 a car, throw the rest of the 15 at these credit cards, get this debt snowball rolling, or are we going to use the 15 and sell the other car and get $2,000, $7,000 a car is that are paid for or $5,000 a car is that are paid for and have no car payments to attack all of this with.

And you can run the math out in about 20 minutes, doing either one and say basically keeping the current car is going to cost us five months. Not even throw a third option in there, my household was one car household for quite a while just to get ahead on debt and if that's something that could work with you guys, just for a short period of time, it could really be worth it because then you sell a $33,000

car, pay for what's upside down and you use the money to get one vehicle that fits everybody, do that for a while and use whatever margin is left to throw it at these credit cards. Yeah.

As you can play with some options, but the bottom line is if you're making a 140 can

you get out of $100,000 of non mortgage debt, yes you can sir, you can win. Would you recommend, so I have quite a bit of equity in my home, would you recommend downsizing? Not unless you hate your house, you hate your house. I have no interest, no, I love my house, I paid $2,000. And don't, don't sell it.

Don't sell it.

“I would give up two years of my life on beans and rice to keep a house and that's what”

you're going to do. $50,000 a year and you're debt free in two years. That's $4,000 a month, that means no eating out, no vacations, no whining, everything's on a freaking coupon, beans and rice, rice and beans, the cats on Craigslist, the dogs on eBay, I mean we're selling everything and we're getting out of debt so we can keep

our house because the house is the only thing in this whole equation that's smart. All right. So let's keep the smart thing and dump the other stuff. I'd sell the car 62 times for us all the time. Absolutely.

Plus I think if you keep the house, it's going to help your wife stay on board with this plan. Yeah. So but you guys need to sit down together and say, if we are willing to pay a price together, if we're both willing to roll up our slaves and be grownups and say, we're going to clean up this mess that is overspending and that is buying cars we can't afford, you've already

started the process, you were willing to sell your Tesla, the other cars hers, I can tell by the company. Absolutely. And so.

But he did good, he led and he went first and now it's her chance to be an adult and she

can go second. That's the stud. Yeah.

“And that's how you draw people in, instead of like hunting up, and listening to say, Ramsey,”

we're going to sell your car. Don't lead without one. Okay. Start with you. That doesn't work real good.

So you know, there's a couple of ways to get at this, you sell the cars, but the house is not one I might do. And a hundred times out of a hundred, I would live on nothing for two years where our friends think we joined a cult, our family thinks we need counseling and we're getting out of that for two years.

No, is the answer to every question when someone calls you, no, we can't go. We ain't got any money, we're broke people. And it's not based on your son's Nicky or stay. That's what the math says. .

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If you're listening on podcast or YouTube, John is in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hey, John, what's up? Hey, they just want to know, been watching your kind of clips on Facebook over the weekend, struggling with finances and just can't seem to get ahead. So we're just trying to tell my wife I'm like, "You really got to do something?"

She found out you guys had a map, and so I just decided I was going to take it. You guys took calls, I was going to call and see if there's something you can do to help us out, because we feel like we're just constantly drowning and trying to get ahead and doesn't seem to work out. That's a frustrating feeling, I'm sorry.

I've been there, and it's no fun. I feel like I'm freaking rat and I'll work myself to death, and all I got is Bonnie Fingers, right? Yes, sir. So, what are you experiencing?

Do you feel like it's an income issue?

“Do you feel like more money is going out the door, or is it a combination of both?”

I think it's, I think it's both. I mean, we have a decent money coming in. I mean, we're not living high on the hog buying, you mean, we make $60,000 in my salary, and

then we make about another 20,000 or so with, like, I spark doing a second job, and then

my wife does it when she can, she's a stay home mom, we have seven kids, so I have her adopted, and so we just try to juggle everything we can, but we seem like we have to get a loan to get by, and then you try to pay that loan off, and then we have to get another one to get something else done, and it just, it's just frustrating. Yeah, I mean, $80,000, you've got a big family, family of nine, that's got to go an awful

long way. Do you guys have a budget? We sort of do, we write all of our bills down on the paper, and then we check them off as we, as we pay them throughout the month, and then sometimes we get to the end, and we're a little short, so then I got to go, and you know, stay longer out on the

evenings, or on my date. What kind of a dad made you happens? We have about 10,000 in personal loans, and about 11,000 in credit card debt, and almost 70 in cars in auto loans.

“Okay, break those down for me, what's the two cars?”

One is 30,000, one is almost 38,000. Okay, so one of them's the school bus. Yes, one of them is the nine passenger vehicle, and the other one I just recently bought like three months ago, and that's because it's a hybrid, and so I bought it brand new, so I can do the extra income, and that even you can try to get ahead and get better gas

knowledge. What do you do? What's your 60,000 job? What kind of work is it? I'm a manager at a community store.

Okay, your last purchase was dumb. It killed you. It put a nail in your coffin. It was not a help. It was a hurt.

Okay. You were trying to do something smart, but I didn't say you were dumb. I said your purchase was dumb, and dude, I've done some dumb purchases, I know what they look like. That falls in the category.

So my experience is we have a lot of large families doing the Ramsey System, the Ramsey Plan, and so we see a lot of them, they visit the office here, we get pictures and videos,

families, one of two things happens, one is they completely lose their minds because of

the chaos, but most often that's not the case, most often people that have large families become highly structured and organized. Down to the point that we have people coming here with two kids, and they can't seem to figure out how to get a picture taken, people coming here with eight kids, and they say get in line for a picture in 30 seconds later, they're already.

They're so organized, structured, dialed in, and they know the whole world doesn't revolve

“around each one of them, instead the unit is what matters, and so as a family, we have”

to learn to serve each other, we have to learn to not be the source of the drama and so on. And so the large family just does that for emotional regulation, it does that for structure and for systems and processes, because otherwise you lose your mind with that many people coming at you.

Does that make any sense? Yes, there it goes. I would suggest that you guys are probably that. Are you? We are.

Yeah. We'll put that to you. Until you got to your money. So I want you to take this same mentality, where you crack the whip, so to speak metaphorically, to keep the children in line and all lined up like little ducks, let's start making

the dollars, stay in line, and go where they're supposed to do, go with little ducks, because you're real structured and systematized until you got to your money, and then it's chaotic.

Yeah, the problem is that you're doing it on paper, which you're not doing anything.

Yeah, and even those, because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening who think, "Oh, I write my budget down on paper every month," but what happens when you're spending in real time, and you're not going in and putting every single time that you go to the grocery store, you're just checking off, did we buy groceries, check-in-off, did we pay the light bill, check-in-off, and you've got to have the same plan for all the detailed

spending and all the nuanced spending in between, so we'll give you every dollar, and on every dollar you'll be able to put in all of your main income, but also everything you make from your side hustles, don't leave that out, and then plan for every single dime, and that's not just the fixed expenses, it's the variable things, and it's all the fun stuff in between that maybe you guys do as a family, make sure you're planning every single dollar,

a zero-based budget is what we would teach for you to do, because it works. And then from there, you're going to be able to see, okay, where are we bleeding?

Is there actually margin at the end of the month?

“My guess is you're overspending in certain areas, and that's what's causing you to go”

far into credit card. Okay. It causes causing overspending, because you're chaotic in the money piece, versus if you were dialed in and you said, "All right, honey, the two of us sit down together, this is how much we're going to spend on groceries, period, period, this is how much we're not going

to eat, do we get this debt cleaned up? This is how much we're going to spend on X. This is how much we're going to spend on Y. Nothing else. That's it.

This is what we are. It's a statement of fact, and then you hold to that, and you don't go over one of those categories, because if you lay all the categories out, no one plans to be in debt except Congress. Right? You are not going to plan, you're going to lay out a plan where every dollar has a name,

and then you freak and stick to it, and regiment the crap out of it. Well, yeah, then, because when you have it in your budget, now you can look at it and say, "We only have a thousand dollars of margin, at that rate it's going to take us four years to pay this off." I was like, "Carron, about 30 seconds."

Exactly. But when you know how much, I think it's got to go. When you know how much you need, then suddenly you can get ahead of it and say, "At my side hustle, I have to make $2,000, not just picking and being okay with however much the side hustle brings, and that's just what I make.

“You have to set an amount and go out and get that amount and work until you bring it”

in." Yeah. And her job, since she's head housekeeper, head, I mean, she's in charge, she's head home economists, is what I was trying to say. Head home economists, her job is to make every one of these dollars a scream.

It has to perform. The food money has to stretch, the food that every dollar, the clothing money has to stretch, everything's got, she has to manage it with as much regimentation and discipline and strength as she does seven children so that you don't lose your freaking mind. And you can't justify the purchase of this car with the side hustle.

You won't make enough by the time you're 100 to justify this car with this side hustle. That was bull crap. You bull crap yourself. So I would sell that car in about 20 seconds if I were you.

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If your revenue is at least seven figures, go to netSuite.ai/Ramsie. It's NetSuite.ai/Ramsie. Sharon is in Los Angeles, I Sharon, how are you? Hi, I am.

Fickened tired of being second tired.

I love it. Well, you're in the right place, kiddo, what's up? Um, how can I, um, how can I set boundaries with my husband's spending to help our marriage

“be healthy and strong, but also financially protect our kids in our gold?”

Tell him he cannot serve in Congress any longer. Sharon, what's it, what's it look like this spending that you're talking about? I mean, it's got you in tears, so it must be extreme. Yeah. What's it look like?

Um, we have been trying to do the baby steps for eight years. He keeps not keeping promises.

This is our third time trying to get out of debt.

If you've every dollar, we've tried marriage counseling with church leaders. I haven't found a contract close to death, but we've got allowances, wealth planning, therapy sessions, weekly, but it means nothing's working. We're touching through $3,000 to minimum debt payments these month. So the, the, the, the techniques you're attempting are not the problem, um, which the

fact that you're not doing any of them. There's a family because he keeps breaking the contract, not following through on every dollar, not following through on getting out of debt. And so what's broken, I mean, anybody said looked at him and said, good, what is up with you?

No, because anytime I tried to bring something up, I get two answers.

The first answer is, you just need to be patient and compassionate with them, or the second

“answer goes off the other defense, which is you need to make a secret account and have”

a lifeboat to make a count that's secret from him, but I don't believe in keeping secrets from my husband. Right. Um, well, the third answer and that's divorcing, which I don't think that we're at that point because I still love him very much.

Well, you just told me eight years of misbehavior and you called a show and talking to strangers in the first thing happens, you start crying, you're not in a good place. And you said, if I realized that most of it is my enabling behavior, I don't think it's an ablimate behavior. I think it's, you, it's, um, it's, it's more that you, he doesn't believe that there's

any consequences for continuing to destroy his family. Plus, Sharon, there's no way that this behavior is just siloed to money. No, I'm pretty sure it's addiction, um, because at this point, like, finally I'm calling it what it is. It's addiction.

Now, let's talk about what you said before because you said, uh, the advice you're getting is on both ends of the spectrum. I do think in, in, in, in instances where there's some sort of addiction, whether it's gambling, pornography, whatever it is, there does need to be a separation of finance. I'm not saying it has to be done secretly, as a matter of fact, I'm saying it's not

done secretly, but there does need to be a hard cut where you're keeping the money safe for you and the family, you're the one that's having primary control over it because he's

today.

“If that's what's really going on, I don't know if I'm going to call it that or not.”

What are the things?

Well, I'm, I've been very patient the whole eight years that we've been waiting for.

Oh, you've been waiting. I've been eight months and I'm having a problem. But do you know, can you see the purchases or is it, he has credit card somewhere that you don't know of? What is it like?

No, I, I see everything, I am part of all the accounts, very recently, um, I've started scrolling away anytime he spends money, then I'll take that exact amount and put it into saving so that, because his habit is that he sees the money, he spends it. It's automatic, he just, he has to burn a hole in it. But what gives you the idea that it's an addiction.

If you told me, Jade, he's got 40,000 worth of credit cards. I can't log in. I can't see it, but my name is attached to it, right? What makes you think it's addiction? What are you seeing that's giving you that sign?

Because we will, I'm satisfied, like I said, this is our third time going through the steps.

We can't balance in between one and two and over and over. He keeps making promises and we keep taking care of it. But tell us what the money looks like. Tell us what you're seeing in the purchases. How much, what type of an expenditure is it?

Give us those details. He's spending at least 4,000 a month on just his wants to me, mostly lifestyle creep. Like, so it wants snacks and gaming purchases and works for lunch, for work and gives for family members, like our two-step kids or days and money for his friends. So it's what's giving you addiction?

What are you seeing spending wise at your going? You know, I don't think this is an unknown, where is it going? That's making you think addiction. I know where it's going because I'm the nerd. I think you're, I think she's saying spending addiction, not addiction.

Got you. Yes, specifically spending addiction. This is not spending addiction. This is a guy who cares only about himself. This is not spending addiction.

This is extreme selfishness and extreme immaturity. How long have you been married? He's a bud. Ten years? Ten years.

So eight of the ten years? Yeah. Yeah. That's what's going on. It doesn't need a good marriage counselor that will help you form some adult boundaries

that both of you agree to stick to you or that this marriage ends. But in that's the thing Sharon, if it takes two to make it happen. So if you're saying it's been eight years, he won't go to counseling. He won't do this. He won't do that.

We need to go. And the counselor needs to form the words and the sentences for you that turn into what we call an ultimatum that says, okay, either we're going to be working on this to together and we're going to solve this as two adults or we're going to solve it separately.

“Now you need to decide, are you going to come to counseling and are you going to solve”

this problem because I'm simply not going to live like this.

And that has never been said, apparently, and it's time for it to be said.

I don't want you to divorce, but also don't want you living another ten years like this. You're a basket case girl. I mean, you're all, you're all to pieces, and it's not fair to live like this. I wouldn't live like this. I've cried like that, but not days on end.

I get up and change something that's causing that, you know, or we're just not going to be this way anymore. And so we know we get those calls. I feel like we get a lot of these calls and, you know, it's no indictment on men, but it just happens to a lot of times be women calling.

And I feel like they're willing to put up with more of this behavior because well, they're looking at that. They're looking ahead and they're going, gosh, if I make this move, what does it mean for me? If I've been a stay at home mom, oh gosh, now I'm going to be a single mom.

Now I have to go back into the workforce. What can I do? And it's like they're just spinning out all of these hypotheticals that they don't feel ready for. And because of that, they'll stay in a situation with a dude like this who's eight years

of just terrible behavior. And it just, I mean, my heart breaks for that because it's sad. But the way you fix it is, is that you go, okay, I'm going to restart my career. I'm on a contact with the worst attorney, I'm going to find out what my, what the rules are in California about child support in Alamone and, you know, there's a bill, there's

a new bill he's going to pay every month, called taking care of these kids. And, you know, if he can't come to the table, I'm not going to live like that. That's right.

“And you have to decide, are you willing to live like this?”

If you're willing to live like this, you don't need to call us. You can just keep living like that. I can't, I can't, I can't participate in you living like that because I think it's dumb. I wouldn't do it.

But no one's hitting him in the face with a big enough tube before yet. And I'm the guy that's perfectly willing, you know, so, you know, you will do this or you don't stay. Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing like when someone's working here at Ramsey, okay? These are behaviors you can't continue with.

We love you, but the behaviors are going to leave or you are.

“We don't do that here, and if you want to be a wee, you can't, you know, you've got to”

do this and you've got to, otherwise you can't stay. And, and that's how life works, y'all. . This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. A lot of you are just trying to keep it together all the time.

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“Aiden is in Asheville, North Carolina, Aiden, how are you?”

Better than we deserve, what's up in your world? Excellent, so happy to talk to you guys, the good mentor handed me your book four years ago and it's truly helped my wife and I, they off about 130 grand in debt and we just wanted to help you. Good for you, very thankful for what you'll do, so my question is a bit of a soul searching

one and it's when does it make sense to sell our house and buy a new one from a lifestyle and a financial perspective?

I mean, I'd want to know what's causing you to want to do that in the first place, is

that the kids are getting older, is that they're moving out, like what's driving the decision? Yeah, so we're 29, no kids yet. I bought the house in 2023 before we got married and we're actually in like the really nice part of town, we're close to schools and conveniences, but I'm more of a country guy

and my wife and I are trying to look at houses a little bit further out of town and because we only bought the house so recently we're kind of just, I'm a bit of a spread shirt, sheet nerd and she's kind of a follow your heart one and we're trying to just wrestle with when do we do this? Okay, so you bought the house before you were married and after you were married you discovered

that you bought the wrong house. Yeah, so it sounds like I bought the house. Yeah, I bought that house. This is why we told people not to use it.

I would never choose this had I been involved.

“Yeah, so anyway, the, yeah, okay, well, I mean, you're out of debt, you said, right?”

Yep, the house. Or is the house paid off, too? Yes, sir. No, sir. We have about 220,000 in equity and, okay, and what do you owe on it?

About three, 15. Okay, so it's a half million dollar, five hundred and fifty, six hundred thousand dollar house and the price of the property that you would attempt to move to would be what? It'd be about hopefully four, 90 to five hundred is kind of the highest we're willing to go.

Okay, so you're moving down in price correct. And as long as, and you would take out less of a mortgage, then you have now. Correct. Well, that's kind of a no brainer mathematically. Are you doing this on a 15 year?

We have been kind of, we haven't picked out an actual loan yet because we haven't, we've looked

So, yeah. I mean, if you move down in house and you keep the same size mortgage or less, especially if then you put it on a 15, like we teach and you read that in the book, you already know that. So then that becomes a no brainer yet and it's a house that more suits your needs.

Well, that's a no brainer.

But let's say you're living in a half million dollar house when we make the decision

to go to an eight hundred thousand dollar house. That's a different discussion, right? Um, when you save up the money to pay the difference or when you take out the new mortgages at on a 15 year fixed where the payments less than a fourth of your take on pay would be the maximum move up you would do.

But you're not talking about moving up, you're talking about moving down and so do it. I don't see any reason not to do you? Yeah, I mean, as long as the payment suits your, you know, your budget at 25% after taxes.

“And again, I'm going to push you to move it to a 15 year, you need to get in the business”

of getting the right follow all the way through on the total money make overbook that you got, which is maybe step seven, let's get the house paid off. You're young, you're smart, you've already paid off 130,000 and you're making good money. And you guys are making this decision together. So let's take a, you know, a 15 year fixed and even if it means we have to cut back on

our vacation a little bit or something for the first couple years, I would do that and lean into that. It's exactly how I would do it. Great call man, you're doing good, congratulations. Bob's in Ocala, Florida.

Hi, Bob, what's up? Yeah, I did, I did, I, I've been following you guys for walks and I don't believe I've heard this question or anything close to it, actually, I do have some money and I live in Florida and you can't drive 100 yards without seeing

a lawyer bill board saying, you know, we sued for, we got our client $5 million and $3 million.

And I'm concerned about preserving the money that I do have. And I'm wondering what, what, I don't know, insurance is and trust and what, what is out there that can help me preserve my money from lawsuits, if I get in a fender bender, I'm figuring

“the lawyers going to say not how much damage was done, but how big is your bank account?”

And I don't know, what, what avenues are out there to protect the money that I do have. Yeah, you know, $10,000, $10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean is a start. Okay, anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead and send me the emails. People, I'm love reading your, you're griping when I do something like that. It just makes me happy.

So anyway, the, yeah, so what is your net worth? About 2 million. Good for you. Well done, Bob. Well done.

Well, the first thing we would tell people to do is have a minimum and in your case, a larger one, a minimum of a $1 million umbrella policy. The typical person can add a million dollars of liability to their homeowners and their auto for around $3 to $400 a year. Number 5 million, which is what I would get if I were you, okay, then that's going to cost

you $1,500 a year. And so if you have a wreck and it's your fault or you get blamed for it being your fault, whatever.

And someone wants to sue you and your example, then the first 5 million is going to come

out of your insurance company's pocket, which is going to take care of 99.9% of the greedy lawyers and their customers, okay, and that's the first thing. In my case, I carry an umbrella that's even larger. The second thing you can do is you can move properties and/or assets into individual LLCs.

“And then the thing that happens in the LLCs, the thing that, the LLC owns is the only thing”

that can be sued. So, I'll give you an example. I've got one LLC that's got five houses in it. A tenant the other day had a, not the other day, a few years ago, had a guest over who got drunk off his butt and fell off the porch and broke his arm. And guess who's fault they thought that was?

D, someone who is not attending the party, me, okay, so they decided to sue the landlord because this drunk bozo friend fell off the porch and broke his arm. Well, number one, it didn't get very far. We beat the snott out of them with a lawyer on our side because they deserve to have the snott beat out of them, but I'm threatened to sue the other lawyer just for

mouth practice for even taking the thing on. But, had they prevailed and won a five or a ten million dollar judgment against us, the only thing they could have taken would have been the things that that LLC owned, which in this case would be five houses, so it'd be a lot for one drunk bozo, but still,

They wouldn't have come over and tried to take Ramsey.

They wouldn't have done anything like that because they couldn't because Ramsey doesn't own it. They know the other LLCs don't own it.

“The only thing that owns that property and all the businesses done in that LLC.”

So you can put your personal residence in something like that or you can put it in a trust. You can put your investments in that to, at this point, Bob, we've kind of seen it all in our place and so I don't own anything anymore. There's not a single thing in my personal name. Even my cars are in LLCs, which is the most stupid thing in the world, but they are.

Just because what you're talking about, because if I bump into somebody, they're going like, "Are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. What's your name, Dave Ramsey?" Oh God.

You know, it's like, right? It's messed up. That's what's coming. So I think I just died and came back to life. So that's what you're worried about, Bob.

And that's a real thing out there because we live in a litigious culture. How do you decide where to cap the LLC? Well, where we have a piece of property that's a large piece of property. It's a singular LLC for the property. The old office building, the old financial piece of plaza is a worth about 13 million.

It's only LLC. Okay. And so on. Our houses, we just decided randomly five of them. Yeah.

Because it gets up to, you know, you get three to five million dollars in there and then

“they don't get hundred million dollars for the other stuff, right?”

Yeah.

But the problem is now, I've got all these LLCs, so my tax return looks like a phone book.

I'm sure it does. So, but that's part of the risk. And none of it's for tax purposes, by the way, it's all for risk management. So trust in LLCs, dividing up properties, making the targets smaller by the greedy lawyers. And they're dysfunctional clients.

And then on the other side, a big umbrella policies. And those are the two things people do primarily, Bob. Hey, guys. It's Rachel Cruz. If you're working the baby steps, every major expense deserves a second look.

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Go to CHMministries.org/budget and use promo code Ramsey. At CHMministries.org/budget and promo code Ramsey. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show and the Fair Wins Credit Union Studio. Stephanie is with us in Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, Stephanie.

How are you? Hi, guys. How are you doing? Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

What's up? So I'm a recently wed, my husband and I got married in May. Currently we're debt-free except for the house. And I'm calling because we want to grow our family and have a baby, but we're trying to figure out how to afford it.

My husband's income isn't enough to support us financially. So my main question is, how can we prepare to be a single income household when we currently need to incomes to survive? Well, there's no magic wand, Keto. I know.

We're working, or he's making more money, right? Yeah. So which is it? Oh, or might be in where you live? It might be in your rent or mortgage?

What does he make now? So my husband currently makes $38,000 a year. What's he doing? What's his career's last year? He's a male carrier for the USPS.

Mm-hmm. Okay. And what do you mean? I make about $3600 a month and I work as a server at a restaurant. So when you guys were dating and talking about marriage and getting engaged and having babies

and all that kind of stuff, you probably talked about this. Yeah, we did talk about it. And he used to make about 75,000 a year working as a bartender, but we didn't have any benefits.

And I still wonder if that was even the right thing to do.

No, not mathematically. Not mathematically. Well, $40,000 worth of benefits, I don't think so. Yeah. How are you guys living?

Are you renters? Do you own a place? What's it look like? We own our house. We owe $364,000 on it and what's the mortgage?

What's the mortgage? 20, $200 a month. Yeah. So I mean, it 100% is an income problem.

“And the question is, is there something that you can do part time to close those gaps?”

And if not, if there's nothing that you can do even part time to close those gaps, then he's going to have to look in a different career field. Because did he set out my next-- How old is he? 38.

We're kind of at that stage where if we need to have a baby sooner, we're not going to have

one. That's not the point. I mean, it is the point. That's why you call. But the thing is this, if this was not the way the question was framed, and a 38-year-old

guy called me and he said, I make $38,000 a year. And my wife wants to stay on one of the baby. I would have said pretty simply, you need a different career path. And this is your wake-up call. You probably needed one on any way, honey.

He did, right, calling him honey. And so he probably needed to be thinking about that anyway, going, OK, I don't want to be a 84-year-old, one of the eighties, right? I don't want to be a 64-year-old, one of these. I want to be a 64-year-old who makes 100 and $40,000 a year.

“And so I've got to be thinking about what I want to be in the next chapter of my life,”

and what does that thing I want to be, require of me that I don't have now, do I need to get a certification, do I need to get a degree, do I need to get an apprentice program or a mentorship program.

But the average household income in America today is about $80,000.

It includes some single earners and some dual earners. You guys are just to be low that as a dual household. If we go to him as a single household, then you would be, by far, in the category of lower income, and lower income, done $11,300,000 out of house. Right.

All that to say, I'm going to sit down with both of you and say, what career adjustments can you make that over the next 10 years makes this dual, but we don't want to wait 10 years to have kids, but we've got to have a light at the end of the tunnel, and you're not going to get a hundred percent raises as a male carrier. Right.

So you just simply can't do the life you're doing on his income, mathematically. And so I'm going to figure out what I want to be in the next chapter of my life, and it's not this. Yeah. I mean, I hear three goals that you want to, you want to baby, you need more income,

and you want to be a stay at home mom. And so you've got to decide which is the highest priority, and something's going to be a trade-off.

“If you want to do this before, like you said, you don't have a lot of time, then you might”

have to consider having a baby and not staying home for a while. Like you might have to give and take the order to get your wife to be building his career track change. You might take a three-year curve. Exactly.

And you may want to have a baby during that time, and so you keep working. Yeah. Well, mom. And it's a sacrifice, but sometimes it's like that. People do it all the time.

And so, but there's no--have your cake and eat it too, mathematically. You've got a mathematical--you have to face the math. Math will not bend to your passions, wills, desires. It will cause you to change how you're doing those things so that the math changes. Yeah.

And we can give or find the work you're wired to do. She can pass on to her husband, and hopefully that'll get the juices flowing. On a new career path. Yep. That's what needs to happen.

That was a fine career path. There's nothing wrong with it until you add these other goals. Yeah. That's true. And then it exposes the fact that it's kind of stuck.

Mike's in Bismarck, North Dakota. Hey, Mike. What's up? Hey. Hey, Dave and Jade.

Super, super excited to be on a call with you guys. Thank you. So, I have a quick financial question right before I get to it. I just want to see the impact that you guys have on people. It was far beyond finances.

The beginning of this year. I made a gold around a marathon or a half marathon. And every day I went out training, I listened to you guys a show. The day of the race, I ran and finished the year guys a show. Wow.

What do you guys do? Good for you. Thank you guys. It's what you guys do. It's pushing people to be better in all aspects of life.

It doesn't come easy. Thank you. Good for you. Thank you, guys. So my question is, I have three retirement accounts.

My current employer, one from a past employer, and then my personal Roth IRA. And it's the one from my past employer that I'm wondering if I need to move it over into my personal retirement account.

So I used to have high school teacher in the state.

And so I have a state funded retirement account. That currently has $32,900. Yes, I would get online and get a smart vester pro and sit down with them and do a direct transfer roll over from that account into an IRA. Immediately. No question.

Okay. Because the options that there's 8,000 mutual funds to choose from when you do that. You have limited options at your old workplace. And probably a state funded retirement account. It probably sucks.

Most of them. And all right. And that was the two reasons why I haven't done it is because yes, the return is basically five to six percent at best at worst zero percent. Yeah, that's horrible. And and and it was kind of that security blanket of like, well, if everything goes a wire, I'm not going to see that number go down. But again, it's not ever going to climb up.

And then the other side of it is, if I would happen to go back and teach for one more year without touching anything in that account, then I'll qualify for a pension. And so that would be the other side. I'm not, I'm not going to listen that. Here's the thing.

In 23, the market went up 26 percent and 24 it went up 25 percent and 25 it went up 18 percent and 26 is up 14 percent so far.

If you had started in 23, the 32,000 will be 64,000. And then you wouldn't care about a stupid pension because your money's growing.

“So you need to get your money growing, man.”

I would move it and it won't be, it won't be the exact same account. You can put it in the same mutual fund, but they're separate account numbers. But it's called a direct transfer roll over. Anytime you leave, people take your 401k and roll it. Take your retirement roll it anytime you leave.

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“John is with us in New York City. Hey, John, how are you?”

Hi Dave. I'm not doing better than what I deserve to be honest with you guys. Me and my wife, right after COVID, we bought our apartment, and things were great, and life was good. After a few years, we felt like the condo was too small. The two of us were not enough as a family, so we had a daughter and we moved in a bigger house. Things were fine. I did not really feel like the 30 years mortgage was that bad, and we kept leaving our life very humble.

So in a little time, a job change started making more money. My income increased, received a promotion, another promotion, a more more and more. And, you know, I shared this promotion with my wife, but she doesn't really know how much money I really made. So I quietly started to use the extra income to change our future. I paid off my car, per car. I made some improvements in the house.

Open IRA, Rot IRA, I opened a 41K with her employer. At one point, I even increased our weekly contribution to 75%. So, you know, I started talking to the house, the mortgage. I want to get rid of the mortgage of our primary residents, and a little over two years.

“I paid down an amount of money that honestly surprises me.”

And we've gone from 30 years of change, almost to the finish line. And everything goes according to the plan. I could potentially pay off our home by next Christmas. And that brings to me the question I want to ask you today. Should I tell her now or should I just wait and do things that we have been doing them?

By just saying, guys, we are rich. We made it.

“And so this is my question for you guys. What should I do?”

I just think that you have a good intent. You know, I think you have a good heart. I could tell it by the end. You wanting it to be a surprise for your family. But the question I have is, why didn't you want your wife to be a part of it all along?

Is that a cultural thing? Are you Indian? No, no, no. It's not a cultural thing. I would say that this is more of a race than I'm running with myself, with a step one and two intensity, with gazelle intensity. Part of me wants to tell her everything. I want to share the excitement.

Because this is our life, our family. And this is not a goal that I was rich. I was able to reach together. But at the same time, I think that maybe she doesn't need to carry the weight of the race that I decide to run. She, she's happy. She sacrifices without knowing. She doesn't see the money that I now account.

And the, the widows that I have dealt with when their husband did this and thought he was giving her a gift. But left her ill equipped to handle the real world when he died.

Because she's never actually faced the real world because she was so tickared for.

The old version term would be a kept woman. And it's, while I'm with Jade, it's a good intent. But you've robbed her of the adult part of this instead of the child process. It's like you're giving your daughter a gift. Instead of having a full grown woman walking beside you and enjoying

carrying the weight and being your partner. And those kinds of things that's been taken from her. And so, and she might be okay with it.

“I mean, John, I remember like when we went broke my wife before we went broke my wife used to say things like whatever you want to do, honey.”

And she meant it. She didn't want to fool with it. And just go do whatever you want to do.

Well, I drove the dead gum car off a cliff.

In your case, she did the other way. You've been very smart. Very wise and have gotten raises and have ever gotten, you know, you've prospered. But whatever you want to do, honey, leaves the other partner with, without emotional and without the emotional muscle to carry on if something happens to you. Yeah, you're not a bad guy.

No, I know. I think you're, I think you guys leaned into what you were most comfortable with, not necessarily what was best for each of you going forward in a partnership. You're more bent towards being a nerd. She's more bent towards whatever you want honey. But sometimes we have to press ourselves to be what's better for the partnership.

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point. So what would I do in this situation? If you've got everything paid off by Christmas, the difference we're sitting in August right now. The difference in August and December doesn't matter in this discussion.

“So if you want to unveil and have the big Christmas surprise, that's fine.”

There's worse things than that. But after Christmas in January, each month I want her to spend 15, 20 minutes with you, looking over where the money's going and being a grown-up and making the decisions with her husband and being aware of what things cost, what it takes to live and so on. And again, so that in a worst case scenario where she's left without you,

because of the proverbial milk truck, right? Poor milk guys, I get to blame for everything. But all the number of deaths by milk truck hypothetically are a lot. And the ones that actually occur is almost none. But anyway, yeah, you get hit by the milk truck and she's left there.

She doesn't have any, she doesn't understand reality. That's right. And we get those calls. Oh, we get them in there if they feel very helpless. There's no muscle tone in the math and in the, you know,

and they're like, you know, they say things like, "But I really, I want to know you really can't." You know, I mean, money or you've got enough money and calm down. Yeah, yeah. I just want to say because I know there's a lot of couples who operate just like this.

It's kind of like whoever's been towards money and being the nerd. They do that and whoever has no interest in it, whatever you want, honey. Yeah, and I just think it's worth it to note, you know, the way that we teach, it's okay for someone to take the lead in the area. You know, it's okay for someone to be, "Hey, I'm the one who kind of gets out the budget.

I'm the one who says, "Hey, today, the meetings coming up, but the other spouse has to attend, they have to pay attention. They have to have eyeballs on it.

Right? You can have a, you can play a part in the process without being the main lead.

“And I think that's the thing because when you do, at least you know how much money you have,”

where it's going, where it's being invested, you've agreed. Yeah, that's the right amount for groceries. You've agreed, yes, that's the right amount for vacation or what have you. And then each person has a say in it even if the nerd is the one that, you know, filled in the numbers.

Yeah, exactly. And it's just a healthier environment when things come up then. I mean, and usually it's when there's a problem that this is exposed, not in his case, everything's going good. Yeah, good for him.

So there's no, the system he's using has never been stressed tested.

Yeah. You know, and when you start stress testing your system, that's when you can tell if something works or not. In my case, we start stressed testing whatever you want to do, honey, and we discovered that honey wasn't doing bright stuff.

Me. Yeah. And so, like, I went broke because I borrowed too much money, honey. And so, you know, that was what happened.

“Now, would her objecting to that have kept that from happening probably not?”

We probably would have argued and I would have won the argument. But still, the idea that she had, I remember distinctly walking down the street one night and saying the kids were, you know, had just gone to bed. It was early in like eight o'clock at night and high stress in our house. And going, um, well, I don't think we're going to make it.

I think I don't think I'm going to be able to turn this.

I think these guys, I've been fighting them for a year and a half. And I think it's going to come when we're out. And she said, well, I had a feeling. And I mean, yeah, you had a feeling. She had no knowledge of exactly the tactical nuanced garbage I was shoveling

that I had buried myself under. And so, but I remember having to confess that my plan, uh, was causing us to be bankrupt. And then she hadn't opinion. And, uh, no.

Or was she still like to hurt? She didn't say whatever you had to do honey, but she didn't say, well, I told you so. Because she didn't. You know, I can't really do that if you didn't do that. So, but I mean, it was more of a, like, I had adapted to the street.

And to the reality that we were going to lose everything. And then she had to swallow all of that at once. Yeah, that's tough. And that's not fair. Yeah.

You know, and that's not John situation. He's on the other end. You know, like she is adapted to not having to be stressed about anything. And now she's going to get a big Christmas present. Yeah.

And what a great guy, though. He's a good guy. He had a good heart. Yep. [ Music ]

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I'm so excited about AI. Everybody's all worried that it's going to take over the world and robots are going to tell you what there's an old bull crap.

“So here's the thing about artificial intelligence.”

Artificial intelligence is artificial. It's not real. That's helpful if you think about it. The other thing about artificial intelligence that you need to know is it can only regurgitate, spit out an answer,

based on the data set that it's operating from. So unless you feed it garbage or you allow it access to a garbage dump,

So you're going to get trash out of that because read it's full of trash.

“If you allow it to search TikTok, you're going to get trash.”

So that's a data set. We decided our team decided to take three years of this show with the answers from Jade and Rachel and George and me and Deloni. And every book that we have all written, all the best solar books, and the over 2,000 articles that are on our website on all kinds of different money subjects,

and dump them in as the data set. And the tool is called Ask Gramsi. And so if you can't get through here on the air and it's kind of hard to do, if you can't get through to us to get your question answered,

just go to ramsisolutions.com, click or click the link in the description,

and use the free Ask Gramsi tool. And it will give you an answer that sounds exactly like you would hear here on the air. Because it's what you would hear here on the air. We didn't pollute the data set, whether you want to trash from read it or TikTok or some bozos opinion about something.

We don't need any biosis opinion we're right. This is what ramsi says.

“If you want to know what ramsi says, ask ramsi.”

Janets and Canada. Hi, Janet, how are you? I'm great. Thank you. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I am a daughter who is a young adult.

And she's also neurodivergent. If you're not familiar with that term, it means that she might be in pulse of lack, sort of regulatory. What is she on the spectrum, is that what you mean? Well, of one between autism and the ADHD. Okay, if you matter.

Hi, functioning, okay. Yeah, she's lovely. The implication is when it comes to finances or financial decisions, she doesn't have the same control. Or she might be in pulse of an ingredient or something. And because she can legally find leafs or agreements,

she has gotten herself into some situations where she's disadvantaged. And as a parent, I'm happy to see her being a pendant. She's moved out of the family home. She has a job, but it's low pain. So I do help a little so that, you know, she can buy followed food so that she can get there. Sure.

Be sure that she can continue to advance life. How old is she? She's 25. Okay, very cool.

“What's her attitude about accepting advice from you?”

Well, accepting advice is limited, and that's part of the DNA of sometimes people that are neurodivergent. Well, she's open to, she's open to persuasion by others, but not by you. Correct, correct. And, you know, sometimes social cues, sometimes understanding the big pictures seen around corners. That's not only the strength.

And sometimes there's a good idea. I get that that's not the strength, but what I'm asking for.

Because basically, there's no middle ground with us.

You either have got to leave her where she is, which is what I would love to see. And that she's stand alone, she makes her own decisions, or she's declared incompetent. And then you just have to care for her. And I would not want to go there. You've come too far.

You've come too far in the right direction. Correct. And so things have turned out at the best of you would hope for, I assume. And so I'm happy for her. But what goes with that, though, is I would ask her that as a part of her independence that it's wise for her to remain humble about asking for help.

The opinions on things to keep her as a safeguard to keep her from getting taken advantage of. And so I'll give you an example in a different setting. And it's not exactly the same, but it's the best I can come up with it on off the fly. When we teach people to start handling money together, one of the things we found is that if a married couple will agree to not make a decision unless it's A in the budget. Or B, anything over a thousand dollars, we have to do two things.

One is we have to talk about it and two is we have to wait overnight. And so this is an act of humility to submit yourself to that system to keep you from being, to keep a person that's not got the issues your daughter has.

And so I got to check in with my wife, it's got to be in the budget and I can't come home with a new fast boat, right?

“And so, and just because of my emotional immaturity in that case, right?”

But a little different, but it still has the same effect. So I've submitted myself with humility to a system that protects me from my impulsiveness and that's called a growing up. No, I don't know how that applies in this situation, but if we can get her to do that and say honey, you do whatever you want, you're independent.

But for your own sake, please agree to check with dad or check with me or check with your pastor.

I don't care whoever it is, someone outside the deal before you do a deal of a certain size and it'll keep you from getting screwed over honey. Yes, enough and that's excellent advice. I think the complexity to this situation is she actually has a decent amount of money.

“And you might say how did she get a decent amount of money, but she ran our own business at different stages and it was cash business.”

But she actually has a decent amount of money, often invested, but she's entered into life, which is moving out and moving on her own. And now, because of the lack of understanding of financial agreements, she's burning through that money. Yeah, yeah. And how would you sit down with her and scare her about that? Honey, this is not working. Will she be able to follow the advice that Davis suggesting or will her impulse take over in a moment? That's an excellent question. Thank you for asking. I think because there's a high functioning function in the video, it's almost like they're revolving like a teenager.

That makes sense. So having parental voice or having the scaring, there's a high regard being dependent. And on the one side, I think, yes, let her create her on problem.

“No, I don't want to do that. That's not that that's not the purpose of the call, but here's the thing.”

It's a little bit like when my teenager would say, Dad, treat me like an adult. And I would say, sure, act like one. And that applies to this situation. You want independence. You don't be left alone. Then act in such a way that you're not going to lose your independence, because you lose all your money with bad decisions. And that means the Bible says in the multitude of counsel, there is safety. And that applies to all of us to get counsel, they're safety. And that's just what smart people do, regardless of our issues. And we've all got something.

But yeah, I mean, she's going to have to deal with that to maintain her independence or she's going to lose her independence. Because she's going to lose her job, she's going to lose her money. She's going to be handcuffed by these car leases and all the people that ripped her off and signed her up for a bunch of stuff because she would not humble herself to the idea that I need other people in my life, by the way we all do. That was kind of my point. It's not unique to her. And that's part of being a teenager moving into adulthood too.

Dad, I just want to be an adult. Great. Act like one. Adults talk to other people before they make big decisions. And then they get to maintain their independence. They don't lose it.

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Go to Wi-Refi.com/ramsy might not be available in all states. Okay, today's question comes from Renee in West Virginia. She says, "My husband and I disagree about what to do for our daughter." She is an 18-year-old incoming college freshman. We have a 529 for her and she has scholarships, so college is paid for. She has some money in savings and her checking, and she's not a spender, so she won't need all of that anytime soon. I suggest we help her open a mutual fund account to allow a portion of her funds to grow so that she can use it when she graduates to start her life.

She wants to put money in a retirement account because she is so young that a small amount can end up being more. What is the wiser thing to do? I have a couple of thoughts on this. Assuming it's, if it's her money, if it's money that she has, I would just have her put it in an HYSA. If she wants to have a retirement account, have it there, let it grow, that's her emergency fund, that's money for her to continue to build on later on, if she wants to, you know, when they have an apartment, she's ready to move out and start life on her own.

“If it's money that's coming from you all, Dave, I'm the type if you want to gift kids money, I kind of feel like now is more helpful than later, like them making a retirement account for her.”

I would be more likely to throw it in a brokerage account, have it build up, you guys still have control over it, but when you're ready to gift it, you can. I'd probably go that route. I like that. The thing is, we don't know how much money we're dealing with here. There's a lot of things. So, if it's $5,000, it's one discussion, if it's $50,000, it's another one. It sounds like I just have a fee all that is north of 20 or something. So it's enough that it doesn't need to be sitting and checking. So there's a couple of things that can be used for.

If it goes into a simple brokerage account into a mutual fund, let's say there's $30,000 in the box there and you move 20 of it that way.

Okay, that could be the purchase of our first house when she gets out of college and talks about getting married or just purchase our first house when she gets out of college, whichever, right?

That could help move that that way. If it's $50,000, there's another thing. Oh, by the way, there's another thing, we can add some money to this.

“Yeah, you can pull out of the 529 and you should pull out of the 529, the amount equal to the scholarship with no taxes. That's very good. That's a good loophole.”

And I would take that money and do a Roth IRA because only 7,000 bucks do a Roth IRA and then do the rest of it towards a brokerage account for the house. Now we're talking like it's a lot of money. So if it's all 5,000 bucks, then we're not doing that. Okay, but but if there's 20, 30, 40, 50,000 dollars including what you're pulling out, like every semester that she doesn't have to pay tuition, you're allowed to pull the equivalent amount of cash out of that tuition out of the 529 to completely tax free.

And then I would use that maybe to fund the Roth and use her stuff to fund her future house purchase or something with an HSA, I'm sorry, how you'll save this account. And maybe a little mutual fund in there too. Some mix of all of that will be there. The big thing here is not actually the money. It's the teaching moment with her. You've done a great job not being a Spender and this gives you the opportunity to think long term. I wouldn't only think retirement long term, that's too far out there. But if I got enough, I would throw some that way just because the numbers are real.

And then, but I would also, so I can't think you all win the argument here. Yeah, I would do all of it. If you can. And if we add to it that you can pull out of the 529 equal to the scholarship tax free, that helps the equation even more.

That's okay. Well, we got all this compound interest for the night next 492 years. It's going to be a lot of money. Yeah, sort of. It's hard for the teenager to get excited about that. But that's the biggest issue. The only reason you want the big reason you don't want to open a mutual fund for a 16 year old is for them to learn how mutual funds work. And learn that their hard work can be put to work in an investment. I want them to get those emotional philosophical mathematical understandings more than I'm worried about what $5,000 will turn into when it's 65.

Yeah, that's, you know, it will turn into a lot of money because that's a long time to compound, but it's still not, you know, it's not 20 million dollars or something.

Right. You know, so it's, it's, but teaching the kid how to invest and how to work hard and how to live on less than he makes and how to have the, the chops and how good it feels to see your mutual funds statement come in and know how to calculate it. That's cool.

“Little nerdy, but it's a pretty cool, pretty cool skill. And by the way, that's what rich people teach.”

They teach their kids how to handle money. And they talk about money because they have some and it's, that's how, that's what the taught discussion is around the kitchen table. So make that the discussion. This is a good question by Renee. Very good question. Tony's an Omaha Nebraska. Hey Tony, what's up? How's it going? Thanks for taking my call.

Sure. How can we help? So I was calling about a potential career move that I don't know if it's a good idea or not. I have a interesting job where I'm going to make around 24 bucks an hour. I work for a local.

I'm in this pool. So I, I work for the parks department.

How old are you rent utility for you? I'm 35. Okay. You're single? And yep. I'm newly single.

I have two kids. Okay. I've got a $24 an hour and you're a 35 and you work for Parks and Rec. Yeah. So I make around 58k a year because I'd get a lot of overtime. But that's, I also have to live rent utility free.

And after that's all factored in it's, it's not too bad.

My main thing is the amount of overtime and working weekends.

“I have to kind of juggle like my kids and so the other option that you have is what?”

The other option I have is another job would be Monday through Friday. And I'd make anywhere from 60 to 66k a year. I also do have additional income coming in. I'm, I'm a, I play gigs around the area and I, I pull it around like, Why would you not take the job with more money?

Is it because of the rent, the rent allowance? The rent, the rent around here like when I do the math. It's, it's, it's, it actually be less money on paper. No, it's not, I'd be, you're doing the math wrong. So you're making a, you're making a total of 8,000 more a year.

You're not making 54 at $24. There's not that many hours on the calendar. I, I make, so I work six days a week on that work overtime on top of that.

“Yeah. So what are they paying a triple time and overtime?”

Uh, it's, sometimes they're on holidays, it's double time. Uh, like the highest year I've ever made was 60 grand. And you're in like 80 hours or nonty hours to do that. Is there $24.30,000? What do you bring home a month?

I, so my pay checks. And that's, that's before tax and that's, that's before my pension. Oh, I know. Yeah. What do you bring home, what do you bring after tax home every month?

So after tax home every month about, let's see, when I'm not working overtime, about 2400 a month. Which is $30,000 a year, oddly enough. But yeah, that's not 50,000 right. And so you're telling me you're making another 25,000 dollars an overtime.

Bull, you know, you're not. That's, mathematically impossible to do everything. You're doing your math wrong. You can't do what I'm screw it up here, but I don't either. I mean, you've got to be making $60 an hour and working another 40 hours to get there.

You're just not doing it. It's not, it's not happening. On a month with overtime, what, what's your paycheck? So my pay checks, I'm, by weekly. It could be, depending on the overtime between like,

uh, 16, 1800 that had $2,000 pay checks by weekly. Okay. They just kind of all, it's just depending on what's going on. Yeah, I would take the new position, buddy. I don't think you're going to have to work as much if you take the new position as well.

And you have to buy your own apartment, why? Yeah. Let's go rent your own apartment and get your life back. You're starting over after your family falling apart. And you need the margin.

You need the, you need the time in there. You're working all the time now. [ Music ]

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Chris is in Seattle, hey Chris, what's up in your world.

“Hi Dave, my call today, I really appreciate it.”

Sure, how can we help? Um, well, I have a real estate question. So my wife and family and I, we are moving out of Washington State, we're moving away, and there's a lot of people that are leading Washington State right now. And because of that, the market is really flooded.

Our property would be considered luxury real estate at this point, and a luxury real estate specifically is really dumping in the value right now. So we could-- So all the rich people are like-- Fire, sale it.

Exactly, you are 100% correct. And family people are leaving as well.

So we basically are at a point where we have--

We just built an ADU on the property. Uh, I was the general contractor for it. We were able to build that without taking on any debt. And if we have to fire sale this place, we'll be taking--

“We'll be basically breaking even on what we put in”

to it over the last several years. But we couldn't sell it, and it would give us enough equity where when we move, we could be debt free, or thanks to our low mortgage rate that we have here, and, you know, we didn't take on debt to build the ADU.

We could keep this property, use it as a cash flowing rental, immediately, and we would still be able to afford our new mortgage payment at our new home. And that's just kind of where we're stuck. We have two good options, and we just don't really know which one's

the better one to take. I would not invest in real estate in an area that I believed was going in the wrong direction. That's very true. And keeping this is the same as investing.

Yes, it is. Because if you believe it's going in the wrong direction, then you're going to continue to see a flooded market, and values are going to stagnate or drop if that actually occurs.

I don't know. I don't know the market, and I don't know what's going on. I'm going on what your observation is. But for the same reason that you're leaving, I would not keep it as a rental.

Is that logical? That's very logical. It's also what I ought to say. And doing your right. I'm predicting how the other thing is.

The other thing is, you could. It sounds like you guys are in good shape financially. We are. Which means you could have patience on selling the property. Patience equals price.

Yes, one thing that we are considering as well is. Take it off the market.

“Let it be a rental for about 18 months until we get into the spring of 2028.”

And then attempt to resell it then. It's no skin off our backs. We'll definitely be able to get renters that are going to cover the mortgage. See if the market he was a little latering that time. You feel there's some indication the market will get better.

And that 18 months not worse. No. Okay. I mean, I'm not. I really don't know.

I mean, that's a fair thing to think of. If to Dave's point, there's some indicator that it's going to be better. You're not saying, hey, I'm renting with the idea to be a rental. I'm just renting this to buy time until I can sell it for a fair price. I feel like those are two different.

Two different things. Yeah. And the second make sense. I guess it's not to be. It does make sense and not to be too political about it, but there's.

It's key bit of legislation that's that's in contention in the state right now.

That's a million airs facts.

Yeah. If it gets struck down by the people, which it might. The conditions in Washington state will really and they will get better. They won't be as good because the damage has been done. But right now, the potential buyers for a property that we're selling are very limited.

Because they are the type of people that are currently leaving the state. Yeah, because it turns out you can't tax people. They leave. Correct. That's a basic tenant.

I mean, people for some reason people that want to tax millionaires don't understand that. You can't tax them. They leave. So. Right.

It happens all the time. We've seen it. We've seen it in math. So anyway.

“So the answer to your question is, what's the price point on this thing?”

So that's what I was about to bring up. The price point.

This property should sell for a little over a million or right around a million because of its location.

The two buildings, all that jazz. In order for us to sell, we would probably have to get it into the high 800s. Sell in what period of time. Anytime. That's just kind of the going away.

So it's just no longer worth a million. Now it's worth 900. Yes. Does market value is what people will give you for it. It's not what we wish it would bring.

Yeah. Or what it used to bring. Yes. It's what people will give you for it. What a willing buyer will give a willing seller when neither is in direct.

It's the definition of market value in real estate. All right. So. And 18 months from now, you don't think that price is going to change. Much.

Unless it went down.

“The depend on that piece of legislation, I guess.”

Yeah. Ever. Yeah. Here. The other thing is this, you are leaving for.

What has become for you a very emotional reason, and I don't blame you. And for that reason, everything you do with this house is going to piss you off. I'm getting rid of it. Just because I want to be free. You've said.

I'm going to head up. I'm going to load up the truck and move to Beverly. I'm out of here. Hills that is swimming pools and movie stars. I'm out of here.

I'm leaving. Okay. And every time you've got to go back over there and something doesn't go just right, you're going to be mad again. Oh, look over here.

Yeah. All those emotions are going to bubble up in your stomach and in your throat again. And I really like a clean break when it's from something extremely negative. And I don't have to continue to deal with it unless there's a serious. Return on investment for the crap.

I'm getting rid of shovel. And there's not here.

You're not telling me this is going to be worth a million to an 18 months.

You're telling me it might be worth 700. Yeah. And you've got to deal with a renter long distance. Yeah. Yeah.

I think I might agree with that. I just didn't see a good enough chance that things would turn around. And even so with the legislation he was talking about, it could still be. Yeah. Time.

Yeah. It's just it's moronic. I mean, California did it to themselves too. And others have done it. It's ironic when these legislators and in the state of Washington state.

The governor is an absolute moron. When they pass when they want to pass something and they think they're going to tax the rich. It's logistically impossible in a free country to tax the rich unless you do it to the entire country. And even then they'll even go to Costa Rica.

Pick up the money. And being an expat.

You know, I mean, so you they're going to leave.

And so, you know, who left California? All those people that were producing money. Who stayed? Some that were producing money and everybody else. That, I mean, you guys, that's just straight-ups.

Basic economics. Who bettered he? Dave Ramsey here. For more than 30 years, I've been talking to folks on the air. And I can tell you that most people are broke.

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Hi, I'm doing well. Thank you. So I've got a question because I have two children.

And we've always had very open financial discussions.

I think we're fairly reasonable people modest. But like reasonably financially solid. And I'm thinking of doing something that might not be so reasonable and more emotional. So we a lot less than a number of years ago. So it's just me and the boys.

And at 21 and 24, both of my kids have recently purchased a home. And in our like part of the world, we can do that fairly reasonably. So they both have mortgages. And they don't have any other kind of debt. Like college debt or anything like that.

And I want to start. I don't believe in following children. That's why they've got grandparents. But I would like to give my kids something.

“And I don't know kind of the best way to do that.”

I feel like I want to just help them pay their mortgage. Because when I paid my house off like the security, that gave me felt like something. Good for you. I just, you know as a parent.

That's a lot for you. Oh, oh, older you, Annie. I'm at 55 yesterday. Good for you. Happy birthday.

Thank you. And what's your net worth? Um, well, like a little under two. Mayan. Yeah.

Good for you. Well, um, are you hesitating like you're famed. You didn't do anything wrong. You did everything right. Well, I know, but it's.

Yeah. I got, I'm, I'm nervous because I'm thinking about trying to retire. And I'm just okay. I mean, it comes to security. Like I guess.

“How much are you talking about giving the boys?”

Just, just like a little bit. Like instead of like giving the boys. Like, instead of like giving them a thousand dollars for Christmas. Like, can I just put that on the mortgage or we're selling the home that we. That we raised the basin.

And I now have a new house and I'm close to them, which is very, very good. And I feel like I want to take some of that money because that was the house that their dad was in. And that I was in and we raised them. I want to get them a little bit. But not.

They're doing okay. They have jobs like there. Are they? Right. One of them just got married and they bought a house in the mother's son.

I'm 21 and he just bought him a call for house. He's not married. And, and you're not remarried. No. Okay.

All right. Well, you can do what. There's nothing wrong. You're not going to suddenly break their character with a $2,000 gift. Okay.

And just if you give them a just write them a check and. Tell them that your your request is that they've played it down on their mortgage. Because $2,000 doesn't move the money. Don't much on the mortgage either. It's not a lot of money.

No. No. And I mean, when I die, they're going to get us all anyways. They're going to get it eventually. So an individual an individual can leave an individual up to, or give an individual

up to $19,000 a year with no gift tax. Okay. But I don't know if I can do that. And then we're talking about that. That's up to.

We're going to say you have to. If you want to up to. And yes, you can.

If you did that for 10 years, you'll still have to million dollars.

If you're two million dollars is invested well.

And still have lots of money. Okay. But I'm not saying you have to.

“But I'm saying, you know, that this idea that somehow you're going to.”

You're going to give an approach with a small gift like that, destroying your nest egg. You're not. Now, you start talking about giving them a couple hundred a piece. We're going to have to sit down do some math.

Yeah. No. And it's just the idea because I thought, well, maybe if I open a brokerage account. Like, find me. No.

Just do just let them run their lives. Okay. Tell them what you would do if it were you. Hey, I'm going to give you this. You do what you want to with it.

If it was me, I'd put it on the mortgage. Okay. Or if it's me, I'd open up a brokerage account. Well, I can I can do that. And maybe after I'm retired for a little while, I might feel like I can.

I just want to give them that that security. But I feel very insecure about retiring like that. That kind of that kind of scares me. So you say well invested. I do tend to hoard a little bit.

So some of it's invested really well. You have a part of it. It's just the security.

I mean, if you've got a million dollars invested in good mutual funds,

it's producing $150,000 a year. Oh, wow. Okay. All right. And so if you don't spend more than that,

you're probably not going to run out of money. No. No, no, no, no, no, no. There's a lot of your two million if a million is invested in good mutual funds.

“As an example, I'm just giving you some math, okay?”

Because this year, the stock market today, and we're only in August, is about 14%. And so that'd be 140,000 on a million. Since January. Okay. All right.

And I don't have quite a million because I have several properties.

I don't know if the properties are producing 10% of what they're worth. Yeah. Same thing. Okay. So that that the point is I sometimes, if I sit, have people sit down and do math, they quit worrying about their retirement like you.

And I'm not trying to get to give them more. I'm just wanting you to quit worrying. There might be something where you can sit down and because it sounds like you, you want to give, but you're not exactly sure what you want to do and what impact you want it to have. There may be something that you save up for for a while and then you're able to do more of a lump sum to go specifically towards whatever it is that you decide versus a thousand dollars a year or a thousand dollars there. Now what's the balance on the boys' mortgages?

One has like 127 and the other. I'm not sure that I know exactly what they have. About. But they're young. About.

Probably 200. Okay. I mean, you could do something like if you, once you sit down with your smart vester pro and do some calculations about your retirement and if you see you've got room, you could, you could do something like I'm going to match whatever extra you pay on your mortgage up to. Okay. And you throw that on the mortgage and so if they pay down 20,000 and you pay down 20,000, that's 40 on 127, that at mortgages on the way in a couple years.

Yeah, I like that. When I paid off our house, it just opened a hole. That's what I'm trying to get to. Yeah. And then you change your family tree, right?

Because these boys everything you've said about them is positive about the young men. All the great kids like they were.

“So they're not going to screw this up paying off their mortgage and not going to suddenly go off the ranch, right?”

Right. Of course. Now they're, they're good. Yeah. They're smart.

We've always kind of walked logically through things.

So I would stretch you and say, if you sit down and do the math and you can get calm that you could give away $40,000. A year and not go broke, which by the way, you can, then I would probably do something like, I'll match you guys on your debt reduction up until whatever you put extra on the mortgage. I'll match it up to 19 a year in a calendar year. I can do that without any gift tax and that's more than you were thinking of.

But the math tells me you can do that and not even blink. It's not even going to scratch the surface for you. You're going to be just fine. So assuming you get this stuff well invested and you're looking at these properties, they're actually producing good rents. You're doing a good job managing the property and getting good money out of it.

Same thing with your mutual funds. And if you take $2 million, you can do all of that. And by the way, if you did nothing except make 10% on that 2 million, you're 55. When you're 62, it's 4 million. When you're 69, it's 8 million.

If you don't touch it and don't add to it, don't take any out and don't add anything to it and it makes 10% that's what it'll do.

You should get started.

It's not even going to be a thing.

“Yeah, and we get their houses paid off early and then these guys can be millionaires by the time they're 30.”

Because they don't have a mortgage and they have a smart mom that taught them how to live right, live on list and you make. Sounds like she changed her family tree to me. Absolutely. Wow. And hope her boys pay off their houses.

There you go. That's it. I hope there's smart enough to do that match. I think it'll work. I think it'll work good.

And that's when you do a match like that, you're rewarding that a favor you want to cause to happen. Yeah. And you're actually causing the mortgage to get paid off when you put enough on it to cause it. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

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$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

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$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $1,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

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$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

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$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$3,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

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$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

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$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

“$2,000 is more than 50% of their value never actually cash flow.”

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.

$2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual. $2,000 is more symbolic than actual.