‘Ali’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

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higher learning. Yeah. And mid that voice. Don't forget it. And ringer tailgate.

Going for anything right now. Yeah. It's going crazy. Yeah, man. Jeff Kessler coming on.

Kessler was nuts. We're having so much fun. We talked about Stacy Dash and being car some of the last episode. Yeah. Yeah.

See are the watch. And then you're doing beautiful pot on Adam Friedland's podcast. Yeah. And talk the thrones. Pop on big picture and talk the thrones.

Yeah. Still thrones same show. We go backwards. We have 1200. Yeah.

We're moving slightly forward. Yeah. The backing era. It is the Viking era. It's the Norwegian national team.

Interesting. I want to show it up. Yeah. We're going to do a movie called Ali directed by Michael Man who is about to take.

“I think the lead and the director rankings are at least.”

As he should be. Our guy Michael Man. Ali is next. [MUSIC] All right, guys.

Ali. A movie that we all love that's super flawed. And we all love it anyway. And it came out 25 years ago. This fall starring Will Smith directed by our guy.

Michael Man. Sports by our picks. So there's the. Bio picks about the guys that weren't super duper famous. Cinderella man.

Rudy. Bridging bowl. Lamada was famous. But not famous. King Richard.

See biscuit. Secretariat. Chairs of fire. Rush. Really good one.

Board first. Then you have like the Britannia, the rookie blind side. Those types. If the Disney ones like 42 race and radio. The biggest.

Absolutely.

“I think they've ever tried to do this with.”

I'm pretty fine-tained. And Ali. Right. Where there was like. The myth around the person almost made it like.

I can't do a movie about them. There are two famous. And they do this with Ali. And it mostly works. Right.

It's the closest thing that they'll ever have.

We're never going to do better than this.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. The prefrontating thing was interesting because. They released two prefrontate movies within like two years of each other.

Yeah. Yeah. The better one was without limits, which is a really great movie. A good movie. Yeah.

Really good movie. That's proud of. So it's quite a lot. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Quite a lot of one is great. The little one is watchable. Yeah. Quite a bit great.

Neither one of them were bad. But I actually didn't know who's the prefrontating was before that movie came out. Where Ali was the most famous. Right. Right.

Which hangs over the movie. Ali had his own biography that he had started. And then a couple years before this movie came out. When were the kings comes out. And which was like this really penetrating look in two.

Ali versus four men and that heightened my expectations for this movie. I think a lot. I think that documentary affected a lot of people the way they went to the movie. I think that's the best sports documentary I've ever met. Really?

I do. Dream is paralyzed. Dream is for degree of difficulty yes. Yeah. When we were kings.

It's I think the perfect sports documentary.

You can never have it passed.

Would you put last answer there? I mean last answer is 10 episodes. Sure. So that's almost like a doc you say. I don't think that could be a documentary.

When we were kings is just like. If you want to. I mean this is kind of what this movie tries to do too.

“If you want to kind of capture how charismatic.”

Lovable, fascinating, galvanizing Ali was. That probably does the best job. I think the film actually follows documentary structure in some ways. Obviously it follows documentary sensibility style wise. Man making all these efforts to.

Really recreate moments. And yet it's completely stylized the way all Michael man stuff is. But like he's out there with lipstick cameras. You know, I mean, like in the middle of the night shooting digitally with will Smith running through neighborhoods. You know what I mean?

So it's like it's as real as it can get. But it feels almost like a doc and it's narrative style. In that they. They have so much to cover that they're just like we're going to do away with the like the arc of a character in a lot of ways and just show these. Crucial moments.

But it makes sense how they do it. I agree with what you said. But they're just like this is about him winning the title losing it getting it back. Yes, right. They didn't try to do that.

It's about as political awakening, which I think is what's about those 10 years. And then they try to go and all this other stuff that the problem I had is to see there should have been. And I I love this movie and I've watched it a bunch of times, but it's flood to see there could have been an hour 45. Or like 10 hours. Yeah, yeah.

You don't even mean because you were bringing in all of his female relationships.

But it's also like we we I mean this is the weakest link of the movie we just moved three years.

We go from 1971 to 1974. Yeah. We're like painstakingly going through all these things. And all of a sudden it's like I mean he had 13 fights during that stretch. Yeah.

He got his job broken by Norton. All these things happen and they just kind of skip ahead.

“I think that there's a the ebert will get to Robert Roger Ebert on this, but in his review of the movie.”

I think is the thing that bothered people the most about the show. Is that this movie treats Mahalana Lee in a way that he's not remembered culturally. Hmm. Like and but way more serious and reflective and like when you when you re Roger Ebert's review. What he essentially says is that like Ali was fun hung out with Ali and Ali was quick.

And Ali was like quick and he was that and when we talk about Mahalana Lee, even when people talk about, you know, all the political trials that he went through in his life. They talk about him in this way that he could put a smile on it. He did it all with this tremendous flare and Twinkle in his eye. Twinkle in his eye. This movie kind of explores that being part performance.

And I do not think that people responded to that very well. Like there's a version of Ali and like even like somebody like Martin Luther King Jr. You get a Santa Claus version of Martin Luther King Jr. when he's talked about historically. But if you ever really dug into his life, it was very stressful, anxiety written. And a lot of ways pain.

One of the fascinating aspects of guys and there's probably only like half a dozen that I can think of where it's like tiger, Jordan, Ali. These people who wind up becoming almost like some icon doesn't even feel like enough of word for them.

“Is that the relationship you have to them as like a younger person or as like a fan changes.”

Once you find out more about the context of like what made them who they are. So it's like my understanding of Jordan is like he's the best basketball player in the world. He's in in the cartoons. He's selling sneakers like he's delightful and now my attitude about him is like almost like a tragedy. Where he's tortured by competitiveness and like what happened to his father or and throughout his life.

Is just like carrying around this millstone of of of a chip on his shoulder about every single slight he's ever experienced. So these guys can contain multitudes and I just think man decided in some ways like it would have been better if he called the movie like the political awakening of Muhammad Ali or something like that like you know that would not have.

I have some stuff about that for later he basically said he thinks it's a movie about defiance.

Yeah. And so at least my favorite athlete ever. I mean I like for real like I loved him and when I was five years old six years old I started watching him on wide road of sports because he was on all the time. And that was like basically his weekly window and he would just go on and even have fights. There there was a joy and a curiosity and like a fun about him that even if you were like. I guess some boss and you were like oh, I just that's a black turn on.

I would see back people don't do it. You wouldn't know and he was going to be on wide road of sports. So you would go you would turn it on on Saturday or you know is usually Saturday sometimes out of special shows but it'd be like I hope I leave on. And then he would come on and it wasn't even like he'd even have a fight. He would just come on to make fun of Jim McKay or Howard.

“But he had and that's what I think when we were Kings captures like you just see him moving through Zayir and he's he's just so curious and loves that he just wants to connect with everybody.”

And I don't think the movie totally captured it.

There's one specific thing that I will never forget I'm pretty sure is from when we were Kings.

Do it in this movie they recreated from that documentary and maybe our earlier documentary but when Ali is flying to Africa. And he sees a cockpit full right with the pilots. That's in the dock in the documentary. Ali is beaming with pride like he's beaming with pride and he's using that to teach. And what makes Muhammad Ali who he is as a speaker and as a personality comes through.

They approximated in this and it just doesn't quite feel the same. Yeah. And I appreciate the movie for going for it. The movie is trying to show you just how small and big Ali's world it was at the same time.

I think it's a good quality we're talking about Ali.

The only person I've seen in real life who has it is Charles Barkley. Like I've watched him do it and he's liked that all the time. It doesn't matter what situation he is he's genuinely curious. He connects with people. He's funny like just enjoys life and enjoys intersecting with everybody.

“And everybody said that's what Ali was like.”

Like it didn't matter where he was and the movie hits it a couple times. That scene when he goes to me Joe Morton at the diner. And then he leaves and he goes outside and he runs into like before people. Yeah. And he starts like this for sure.

I'm going to come see your next fight. Yeah. You better get there early. Yeah. So it taps into it.

But I feel like Michael Mann's interpretation of Ali was just kind of darker than how I think

Ali is. So it depends on how you want to read the movie. Do you want to read the movie as a sports biopic where, you know, you're evaluating it on its rendition of real life events. Do you want to read the movie as a wolf Smith movie, which is a movie star vehicle.

And as an act of him immersing himself in this character and transforming his body. Do you want to read it as a Michael Mann movie? And if you read it as a movie, the closest partner it has. Many people have commented on this is not like an original thought by me. But the closest partner it has is the insider.

And it's just made it. And it is about a guy being subsumed by things that no matter how big he is or larger than him. Right. And it's about the government and religion and all these institutions. Trying to suppress him weighing down on him trying to.

Hold him back in his evolution as a human being.

“That's what's interesting to man about this movie.”

Yeah.

See from like honestly, what is maybe the best 20 minutes that man's ever put together.

And maybe I put it up against almost any other filmmakers 20 minutes is that they're opening 20 minutes of this movie. Yeah. Are, which is the reason it's rewatchable symphony. Yeah. It covers like 18 different aspects of American life.

And does so in a way where your head is spinning around by the time he. He, he not sounds like that's why he wanted to make the movie. And then he tried to figure out the rest. It really when you watch the open. You start to think like you're thinking is this going to be one of the best movies.

But it's going to be one of the best movies. By the way, I stepped in that way in 2026. Like watch the watch. It's going to be like Sam Cook is going. Ali is going.

Things are happening. Malcolm X is speaking. It's moving. You're like going backwards on a bus. There's that material.

And now we're going forward again. Right. And you're like, what the hell is going on? And the energy of that it almost sets the movie up with that energy. And then he slows it away.

I mean, it's unsustainable. And you can do it, right? Yeah. I want to get into like the the finer points. I want the viscera of Ali all over me.

But I'll say this though.

“I think this movie is also him talking up.”

Man, I mean, talking about what he believes Ali was. Like he's acting like a theory. Right. It's a theory because if you look at Muhammad Ali and just this extraordinary life. But somebody that popped up every time you saw him.

I feel like for a lot of people, we brought it up. I said it before and like you kind of almost reiterated when you were just talking. They don't want to believe that Muhammad Ali wasn't like that. They don't want to believe that he wasn't on all the time. They don't want to believe that the government and his family,

his own personal pick of Dillos, like whether or not he could be a good. They don't want to believe that that stuff weighed on him because it kind of ruins their fairy tale about him. And man, posits that the actual man is actually more interesting than the fairy tale is. I mean, you even could have gone like what you said about Jordan. Ali, I probably read.

I've read every Ali book, every sports illustrated. I've seen every documentary, everybody like name it. I've consumed it because I loved Ali. Ali was like a pretty mean spirit of guy sometimes. Like the shit he did to Frazier was brutal.

And that was one of those things because I loved Ali. And as I got older, Mark Kramer, a great book about it called "Ghost of Manila." And she's like, what Ali did to Frazier was fucked up. You know, the fact that Frazier was helping him and the fact that they had a... And then he tried to present, he tried to push Frazier as he's the Uncle Tom on this side.

He's on that side. He's corporate. Frazier was like... Frazier was like, do. I was trying to help you.

Yeah. Frazier hated his guts to the bitter end. Right. Like that's what led to Manila. Where Frazier's like, we're fighting to the death now.

I hate you this much. Like both neither of us will ever be the same after this fight.

But Ali was like a little like Jordan. Pretty could really get me. He beat like, yeah. And left like a... left like wreckage in his way. Like that stuff he did to Floyd Patterson and Cleveland Wams and then... And then Torrell, which the movie hits, where he's so mad that they don't say his name.

Like he tortured Floyd Patterson. He keeps Floyd Patterson up for like an extra four rounds. Right. So he can like keep eating the shit out of him. As an aside.

I don't know what you guys' version of this would be. I'll just ask, what is this athlete is in the prime of who they are. They are unbeatable. The best they've ever been. It's just disappearing for you. No, no, no, no.

I disappear in just in any sport for you.

“Like if you wanted to show athletic dominance and excellence, what would you show?”

I would show Ali against Cleveland Wams. It bar none is not even close. A lethal 215 pound killing machine. The way he breaks him down. That's fine.

Cleveland Wams is good. That site is on YouTube. Watch him. So you're asking for like a single game. Like a single game.

It'd be like joining against the 93. Right.

Like if you want, he comes out first half of the...

Half of the first round feels him out. And then he's got... I got him. And he just starts this beautiful symphony of destruction. Yeah, there's...

It's not for me. It's hard for me to pick like individual games. There's like swaths of bojax and or Michael Vick. And especially bonds. Right.

Where are you like? Let's go. This is going out. Like it doesn't matter. And you know, that's...

It bonds his mentality at that point where he was like, "There's just nothing you can do to beat me." Ready? Second half Super Bowl Falcons. No, come on.

Yeah.

“Five straight touchdown drives all the two points.”

Yeah. But I mean, Ali is the best heavyweight ever. I would put the Cleveland Games fight, give me every other heavyweight. He's winning. There's nobody.

There's no one at that weight you can put in the ring when him and they're going to beat him. He's the most charismatic athlete we've ever had. He was in the running for most handsome. I mean, Ali was beautiful. Everybody...

Everybody loved him. Everybody was... Everyone was attracted to him. Oh, shit. He's probably the richest...

Would you say he is the richest subject for sports rating ever? The sport. He... He seduced all those sports riders. Like the sights in the movie, right?

He would hang out with all of them. Especially when they were in Afro because former got hurt. And Ali had like an extra six weeks without those guys. Like Norman Naylor's down there. Or maybe he was in Manila.

One of the... The two times when he was in locations like that. You'd spend real time with them. Mm-hmm. And they would write the most flatter.

Like they fucking loved him. Yeah. Dick Shapp. Yeah. At least people.

He just knew how to play the game. But it goes back to the Barclay thing I mentioned. Like he genuinely was like that. He liked being around whoever. You didn't like being alone.

“That's why some of the stuff in this movie.”

I'm like, I just... Feel like Ali was around people more. The thing is, is that just... He's constantly around people in this movie. Well, there's times when he's like alone and so at that.

I think if he was alone, there was probably a woman in there. Like, uh, I'm not to... Not to cut your wisdom, so you are. But like, there's... I think one of the constant themes in this movie is that he is suffocated.

He can't do any ever.

Well, he's always got a photographer.

He's always got a spiritual guide. He's always got a wife of... He's always got a girlfriend. He's always got a girlfriend. He's always got a girlfriend.

And all of these people's problems, he's so singular in his charisma and his capability. That all of these people are like, "Can't help me." "Can't what we're gonna do." "Can't what's going on."

Well, he's probably the all-time most exploited celebrity we've had. Like, in terms of... On to our... In terms of the nation as long as I'm just taking... Most of his purse, um, multiple wives.

Like, just... You know, he's broke by the time it was like 1979. He had no money left. Yeah. People just stealing from him left and right.

I tried to find a bunch of interviews. What I was gonna say is... I tried to find a bunch of interviews with Man about it. And he's obviously, like, so... So articulate about his own work.

There was one great one. The Deadline Hollywood one. I haven't found him address this necessarily. But I really wonder whether, like, Half of him wanted to make a Malcolm X movie.

Because the first half of this movie is a Malcolm X movie.

Um... I mean, in a lot of ways, it's about, like, Ali being enthralled to this guy, being pulled away from him by the nation of Islam. It's its own movie.

It's fascinating. It's fascinating. The same thing happened to me on the rewatch that happened to me when I saw it the first time. It's basically, every time I watch this movie, I started, I'm like, "Olish it.

Does the best movie I've ever seen?" Ha! This is Malcolm X movie. And then, like, I'm so disoriented that the second half of the film kind of, like, slips away a little bit until his entire year. And then the second time I watch it,

if I go back and restart the film, I'm like, "Oh, this is really, really, really good." And then this is awesome. Because once you know the rhythm of it, and know where it's going to go,

it feels just a little bit more, like, in the pocket. You know what I mean? It's just fun. It's just fun. It's just fun.

So, you know what the movie doesn't do? Which the Malcolm X character does?

“So, a lot of times when you watch films that are set”

in this, like, racial, racial reckoning period of the 60s, they give you a lot of, like, news clipping stock footage. Hold your hand. They give you, uh, fire hoses, and they give you dogs, and they give you, look at the people marching.

It's your choice. This movie sets all that up through the character of Malcolm X. Yep. It's like Malcolm X, who talks about, uh, the black churches, and the four little girls.

It's Malcolm X, who you see, like, I am a black America's vengeance. I am the pain. You see that in him, and then you see, uh, like, cash is clear at that point, learning about it,

and connecting to it through him. Since the movie doesn't seem concerned with doing all of the other tropes to other movies do, they put it all into a character, and that performance is phenomenal.

Yeah. My Mario van People's. I texted you guys the other day.

I always forget, like, how great this movie is.

The first half of this film, that performance, a lot of it exists in the shadow of Malcolm X, which happens nine years previous, right? I then you get into the whole, like, at one point spikes attached to this film.

Yeah. You know, at various points, all of your stone is and once Denzel to be in it, like, to be Olli. I mean, it is, it fascinating text for that decade of filmmaking and those filmmakers.

That scene when, when there in Africa, and he's excited to see Malcolm, and then slowly realizes he's got to get away from it. Yeah. It's so, and the way that people's plays that.

Yeah. I can't read it right now. I was looking off and not sure whether he's to take a picture of it or not. He's like, yo, that's, like, yo, that's my man. That's our guy.

Yeah. You, like, you see them, and then you know that they, in the movie, Lisa, they won't see each other again. And Olli thinks it, don't read this right. Olli thinks it before he says it.

Yes. You go, he goes, he's, he's standing there. He's with his friend.

We never get to hear the inner monologue of Muhammad Olli

because we think that his talent is so ever less than that. It just flows out of him, like, gifted by God. But he's standing in front of this incredible historical figure. That's been his friend. And he thinks you shouldn't have done it.

He builds up the courage to say it. And then, you know, that faces faces just drains, man. They were really close.

“Like, I think they started hanging out in '62.”

And then when he started feuding with Elijah Muhammad, it was about, like, the adultery stuff. And that, that became the, the breaking point. Mm-hmm. And then what?

Squid, I like this. Tell us more about the nation builders. (laughter) I don't know if it's the horrible business. What?

What? Honestly, it would be it. It's just an amazing final act. It used to convert to the nation. It's the biggest art here, so I was preaching about your work.

I'd be willing to make something else. (laughter) Now, the movie makes it seem they had a conflict. But they don't really explain what the conflict was about. And it was about Malcolm X, who was, like, the guy,

underneath Elijah Muhammad, who didn't, like, some of the, he thought he was a hypocrite. Right. But it had a lot to do with the adultery stuff. Had a lot to do with the adultery stuff.

And a bunch of other things. But a bunch of other things. Yeah. That's like, it was involved in the government. It was involved in driving away.

And actually the government stuff is the most, yeah. Yeah. It's not the most, but like, it's an interesting tactic. And it, it almost suggests a wider canvas he wanted to work with. But man, when he get the Ted Levine scene with Leon when he's, like,

Yeah. And we want to know about this guy. Well, I want to ask Craig about that because this movie, so it comes out of no one when everybody knows everything about Ali. And Michael Mann makes the movie assuming.

“Oh, you know, you, I don't need to go into this because you know this, right?”

It's like when, when, uh, M.M.K. dies and he has, and just all these looking out, he's on the roof. Yeah. And there's just, and he's like, I don't need to show you, like, the three minutes of what happened in America because you already know this.

And there's a lot of, we see the riots. Like, we see it. Yeah. And then it out because he's like, Oh, I assume you know this. I assume you know this.

But you, I mean, you saw this move for the first time, right? Could you follow all this stuff that happened or were you confused? I did feel like there were moments where I was a little confused. And I don't think this movie holds your hand in doing it. No, it's, it's the opposite.

It's one, it's weird that it starts with a declaration of what day the movie starts.

And then we never see another day.

And then it does a timestamp. I don't know what year I'm in. I don't know where I am. It helps to like basically have his Wikipedia page open and be going to these fights. And as you find out, like, okay, so I had that in would say it's the worst for this.

And it just seemed like a miss.

Maybe that Michael Mann's like, I'm too good of a director to do that. But I really think it would help.

“I think more than anything, the reason why it's such a big swing is a biopic.”

And Ray kind of follows the same type of basic. Yeah, he really wants it to be about the characters. He tries to tell the story of Muhammad Ali's life and not necessarily a recounting of Muhammad Ali's life. So it's like his discovery with Islam, his discovery through women like who he should end up being with. His discovery to what's important to him and he doesn't need the title to be who he is.

Yeah, almost every single scene where something significant happens. You could leave the scene as if the scene is asking you what if it were you. Like what if it were you and you and you had found this new religion or movement that you were into. But it went against what your father wanted. What if you fell in love with the woman and she didn't conform to what it was this thing with like,

every and you take this huge, huge cultural figure and you just make them a god. Yeah, and then there are some ideas that are so huge that man's trying to illustrate very quickly. So like young cash is seeing the blonde hair blow at Jesus that his father's painting is got to do so much work for like this kid and a little kid. That's a little kid from the wire, right?

Yeah, doing such an amazing job of like kind of like what the fuck is this?

That is why like you know however many years later he's he's in this headspace where he's open to converting. So man said, if there's a team to the movie, it's defiance. I would defied that along with every expectation about him. Goes through a whole bunch of stuff about when he's going to make himself a separate championship of the world. He's going to be a motivational personification of something totally different, a black man and his own culture with his own pride.

“And that was what I think he's trying to do with the 10 years.”

Here's here's the climate Ali walked into. Here was his motivation. Here's where he wanted to end up and then everything culminates in Africa, which is why the running scene is so long. And I hear. Yeah, because I think that's the one time Michael Mann's doing some handling.

He's like, I really want you to understand this. How's running thing? What a piece of really having it here. Yeah, this is a picnic. Michael Mann last the Mohicans.

Heat the insider Ali. This is the Imperial phase. Jesus. This is him like at the center of everything and all the big major. The major movie stars, the great actors are like lining up running off again.

Last Mohicans. Heat the insider Ali. I don't know. That's 92 to a one. It's just like with that with the variety of the movies.

Yeah, I don't know if it gets much better than that. It's a pretty good corner row that have nothing to do in common. But then there's common threads in each one. He, I feel like I wrote this when I did my review of this movie a long time ago that. I think he felt like if I pull this off, this will be my legacy one.

I've done some really good shit. I'm one of the best directors in the world. But this is the hardest IP to pull off. I'm going to try this. I'm going to go for it.

It's also like, I think 25 years later. I don't think a white guy's directing this. It's kind of controversial there. It's controversial in no one.

“I think now it's, how did you feel about that, by the way?”

I've always wondered what a movie that was a little bit more culturally at home would feel like.

And look, we have not stopped making Muhammad Ali stories. He pops up in all kinds of different stuff with the sea all the time. But like, I did wonder that. But I'm going to be real with you, man. I think maybe man compensated or over compensated.

The beginning of this movie is very black. It is, it is very black. Maybe he was trying to do a little bit too much. You know, like, when you, when you're in your homeboys or like, you got white homeboy. You got listening to the tropical quest.

And he goes, yeah, man. These guys, they really influence Kanye. And you're like, shut up, bitch. Like. Yeah.

I shouldn't have said that to him. Yeah. It's like, we, I know. You ain't got it for form. Yeah.

Let's just enjoy the music. So. But. And at the version of that in this is like, can be like, what if we also went to the Apollo the night sample, right? So he's like, okay, I'll show you guys.

Like, I can make, I can make a movie with these people as well. But to me, it feels authentic though. You're like, it, that kind of grounds the movie. I think that's one of the best sports movies scenes ever.

If not the best one.

“We'll talk about it when we do rewatchables.”

Yeah, he's, so he's got that. And then you have Will Smith. He's only taking two swings in his career. It's this and six degrees of separation other than that. Every choice was safe.

This one he knows he even said, uh, I have a quote in here, I guess from later. Um, I'll find it. But he's 33 years old. And he's basically like, this is it.

Like, I'm in the prime of my career. I got, I got to do this. Yes. This is, this is my moment. Spends a year learning how to box and talk like I'll be.

Basically takes two years to make this movie because he wants it to be perfect. And also like, I'll be approved them. Ali, Ali had the rights to this and, you know, wasn't going to do it unless he felt good about the weed person. Yeah. Um, he says closer you're going to get to an actor being Ali, but you're just not.

Some see how somebody becomes Ali. He does the best job. There's scenes where he comes alive as Ali. Mm-hmm. But it always feels like Will Smith.

Yes. I never forget.

I never, I never, I never, I never like Ali basically.

Yeah. My glory, my glory. There are moments of real beauty.

“I think all of the physicality of his performance is amazing.”

The boxing, the running. The boxing. Excellent. He's like holding court or being in like at a press conference. The intimate scenes, the scenes of the women.

The scenes of his religious conversion. I feel like I'm watching historical reenactment kind of. Which is the usually the problem with biopens. Yes. My, my hardest take is that this is one of the strongest performances in a biopic.

Whenever Will is not talking. And I know that that feels silly. Like that almost can't be a thing. But there's so much action happening. There's so much drama happening in that a lot of times in order for like.

His reaction to Malcolm X and that scene in just the one line.

Like when he's understood when he sees Michael Michelle for the first time.

Yeah. And he's like, hey, all he nails all of that every single thing. Every way, everything that when he when they don't call his name. And he decides he's not going to be inducted. All of that.

But when he starts trying to do the hourly voice. It's impossible. You can't do that. Yeah. That's not going to happen.

And that's kind of when maybe you lose a little bit. It's weird because there are so many figures around him that are so iconic. And I can't help but feel like Michael T. Williams and is doing Don King. I'm like, this is fucking awesome. That one scene when he does the Don King in the outside when he tells him for him.

I got hurt. Yeah. He becomes Don King for like 70. Yeah. It's not like Ron Silver and Jamie Fox.

All of these guys, cocell, you feel like you're in the middle of it. Michael T. Williams in kind of like in habits, the energy of Don King. Yeah. Like Don King feels like a little fucking sleazy, a little fucking like dangerous. Like it's a really understanding.

And all these two. Some people said was super naive at all times. But then other people would say had pretty good sense. Yeah. So he's snipped out the Don King thing pretty early.

We'll talk about all those actors in a second.

Craig, who is? Who's Ali now? Like this is the most beloved celebrity we had for. I would say the entire 1970s and 80s. I think people loved him the most.

You guys could probably tell me what year or what kind of era that it flips. But boxing just culturally expired.

“And I have no relationship to boxing other than like do you think it?”

There's a celebrity though anybody in boxing or even in all sports. Anything. Well, it's hard for me to even know how you felt about Ali. Because I wasn't there and I don't really get it. So I don't think like who is that for you?

The biggest athlete. The biggest athlete is liberating. He's liberating. He's liberating. He's the biggest athlete.

I mean, probably Tom Brady or LeBron. It's just, it's nowhere close to the significance. Yeah. And LeBron James is a massive, huge guy who has political. He's just nowhere near nowhere near the importance.

There's no way. There's no way. I've only seen it. Ali, which I caught in the tail end as a little kid growing up into it. Jordan.

And then Tiger got close. He didn't have the personality. No, I think it's almost more common for us now to experience that kind of thing. Or at least in our light life times like on a local level. Like I would say I versus in Philly for a couple of years had like this.

Magic to him. Yes, larger than life. A lot of people also didn't like it. I know. Which would put some more tardali in the 60s.

But he was not. I mean, we're talking about like a global like if this dude walked into a restaurant in China.

You know what I mean? Well, also it's sometimes unfair when we do this because like. The 60s are the adolescents of America. Yeah. And of mass culture.

Right. Of mass of mass culture of America. This is when we're like, okay, this is how we're going through the game. Is this thing going to work? Or we're going to figure out a way around this and the people who embody that.

They live as symbols for that forever. And we're just in a different spot now. Jordan is probably that guy for my direct generation. But his, his grand contribution is his ability to be light. And sneakers.

That was amazing if you were like, it's Mr. Beast.

That's like Taylor Swift. I was a beast. I like Mr. B to two.

“Well, I think that pushed Ali over the top.”

Everybody was that he actually sacrificed something. That's what I think. When, when you're sacrificing. You're own all the, that's just money. But this part of his prime all these different things.

That's then you're at another level. Well, I do think now. There's a bit of like a sanitation to the most famous people in the world now. Yeah, sure. If there is nobody putting themselves out there.

Like. Yeah, what would Ali be like in social media? I know it. It's like, I don't. He's got a personal photographer flying, sort of like following around.

He knows he's important. He's going on wide world of sports. He's got sports writers. Like in his code or he like, he is documenting himself in real time.

But it was never over exposed.

Okay. I don't think. I haven't been in the hospital. I haven't been in the hospital in the 70s. Yeah.

And the Jordan thing I was talking about. You actually doubled down on it when you said the sneakers. Jordan kind of invented that type of sneaker culture. At the same time, Jordan's main thing is that like he was beloved as a pitchman. And that, that became what people wanted to be before Jordan.

The actual archetype for the modern athlete was Muhammad Ali. Yeah. That's who people wanted to be. Jordan actually kind of changed that. Jordan didn't want to have any type of political stance.

He didn't want to have any type of counter-cultural significance or relevance. He just wanted to be the guy that had the number one approval rating everywhere. So whenever he told you to buy you and bought it. It worked. Also super handsome like Ali.

Super handsome. I gave for Wilson. Great. I'm giving him the Peter North award for most effort put in the movie. Okay.

He put on 35 pounds. Yeah. He had to try to figure out Ali's weird Louisville accent,

“which I think is like almost impossible.”

It's like a draw, draw combined with like there's a sync song in this to it. I don't know.

I've never heard anybody do it.

100% successfully. The voice of people. It's almost like when people try to do barkly. Like you just can't do that. It's like a 101 voice.

Right. Yeah. We'll take a break. There's a couple other things to discuss some of the categories. This episode is brought to you by zip recruiter.

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So, one thing back on man said about Ali, he said he represented the enormous possibility the poetic subactual self-determination. Head to define not just the establishment, not just white America, not just people who are fear of emergency, but also the NAACP Joe Lewis you name it. Everybody who was centrist and had an interest in maintaining the status quo.

Now he says this in 2017 he says, we are still talking identity politics in 2017. Try and understand that perspective in 1964. It's a good point. Jamie Foxx. Yeah.

So, he was in that and he gave it Sunday as Willie Beamon. It's the first time we're like, oh, Jamie can act.

He's unbelievable in this.

“And I remember one of my big takeaways seeing this in the theater was like,”

"Fuck, Jamie Foxx is a great actor. I had no idea." Yeah. There's the interesting dynamic here, Van, where he's kind of the Tom Brady, sixth round pick to Will Smith's paid meaning of like,

"Oh, you're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here. You're just supposed to be over here.

This meant that that point was like he was married.

He was just a major star. Jamie was accessible. Jamie was at the, you know, partying. I think they were, I think they had two different parts of Hollywood. Jamie was Hollywood was a little bit more rap hat.

Will's Hollywood was a little bit more corporate. Yes. It was probably the rap hat. But I think that they kind of managed their careers of a certain point where it was like Fox is still like, I want to do TV.

I want to host stuff. I want to do music comedy. Yeah. I want to be in everything. And Smith's running his career,

essentially on the Tom Cruise track of like, Jamie, when you do this, it has to hit you as count. Jamie plus everybody's ass. They did, like Jamie is legitimately one of the most talented people. Like Sammy Davis junior type shit that we've ever seen.

He's great. And then assume he's funny and fucking shit to like, "Bundini almost greases the skids for Ray." Yeah. You see the same type of DNA in this performance.

Like the same type and then what he's out of it. And then we have Van Peoples as Malcolm.

“Who, I think this is probably the best he's been in a movie like this, right?”

He had a good career, but I think, I mean, you imagine how fucking hard it must be to play Malcolm X after Denzel. Right after Denzel. Like not that far after. Man, Marvel Van Peoples is a fucking genius.

Like, Marvel Van Peoples is what are those guys? When you go back and look at the totality of things, Marvel Van Peoples has done and done them well, that is a fucking A plus create. Yep, man.

New Jack City, it's Marvel Van Peoples. Like, you know what I'm saying? So like, here's two else's in this movie. Jeffrey Wright, it's Howard Bingham. Jean Carlo Esposito, who's great in this movie.

I like that there's only like one scene with him in JB Fox when they're drinking. And I was like, okay, I could've gotten him faster. It's a water. Yeah. Ron Silver's Angel of Dundee.

Joe Morton. Chancey Oscars. Ted Levine. Briefly. Leon.

Barry Shibaka Henley. Michael T. Bruce McCall, he even has a. Michael Bruce McGill, I worked out McCall again. Yeah. Bruce McGill.

All of them are great. All of them are graduated. That guy's. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, Michael Michelle. Yeah. Does he have a line? No. Does he talk?

I think maybe the director's cut. He has a line. Yeah. And then John Boyd is co-cell. Which is another one.

Shouldn't have worked. Did you say Jada? Well, yeah. Yeah. He's gotten to the lead.

Yeah. But John Boyd is co-cell. He gets nominated for an Oscar. That's like you can't. Who can play Howard co-cell?

That's like doing an SNL sketch. And he's really good. Yeah.

“Probably makes him a little more kind of a good hang.”

Then Howard co-cell was by all kinds. Well, it's the intimate moments between Ali and Cousella. Or the ones that really sell it when he's like doing the coffee. And he's like, have some coffee with your sugar. Yeah.

They kid for you. The comment for you. Yeah. And then Nona Gay jay to pink it and Michael Michelle. I went to an Ali junket because I wrote a piece for page two.

I got spent 10 minutes with Nona Gay. So he's the best looking person I'd ever seen.

But that's amazing. It's a thing. It's impressive. It's really, really impressive. It's a thing, man.

That's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful woman. First Crypto is with Sony 1992. And it up at Columbia Pictures in 1988. Ron Howard. Can I have your son and Phil?

Can I have five seconds on this? Yeah. It is worth noting that. This Crypt was like in development hell. This was like a almost 10 years.

In the 80s, they were talking about doing this.

“I think there was different guys attached.”

There's the credits are a degree Howard as the story creditor. Some of the four screenplay people. Then there's two other writers credited. Then Eric Roth and Michael man also get a screenplay credit. At various points, this was going to be the childhood story of him up to 40.

Like it was. There's lots of different versions of this out there. It's kind of a miracle to move he hangs together as well as it does. Well, how about Ali with approval of everything? Yes.

Which never really works either.

And he was alive. And had at that point he was fading. Well, he was working. And they keep trying to do it. And it never makes good news.

Basically, everybody from you older is like, that's not Ali. You know what I mean? Like you're going to have to. Going on Ali. Foding public is going to be pretty harsh with this.

So Spike Lee wanted to do it. Was in negotiations. And we'll Smith really want to Michael man to do it. Interesting. Is it a popular?

Well, it was Smith told Spike Lee. He was going to have to expand his boundaries. If you wanted to direct this. And I had that in my notes. Didn't couldn't imagine him saying that to Spike Lee.

Now, I got to say like. Malcolm's too important to this movie. I don't know how Spike could have directed it. I don't know if that. I think it's too weird.

Or did it in the same film? It would not have been the same film. I think that there's a version of this.

“I think that the Spike Lee movie, they two vastly different movies vastly different movies.”

I think the Spike Lee movie might have had more cultural relevance. It might have been more. It might have been thematically tighter in terms of what he was trying to say about Malcolm X. Excuse me. Malcolm X.

Yeah. It would have been a smaller movie. And will just like movies for everyone. And Spike doesn't make movies for everyone. And probably want to work with Michael Man 2 who is scorching hot at the time.

How do we all never work with Spike?

I don't think that's the deal breaker after this. What year's 25th hour is that, O2? Yeah. So we get that instead. Yeah.

I think that's a win for us. Definitely. Yeah. Maybe Spike Lee would have liked to have the Marbley movie. But I will say this.

It is interesting that Will Smith has never worked with Spike Lee. Most of the guy guys. So the biggest black actor we've had since younger than Denzel. Right. And probably the only person who didn't work with Spike Lee was Will Smith.

Yeah. It's interesting thing. It's also the Jamie work with him with Spike. I don't think so. I don't think so.

But it is worth noting. Also that Will was the first person. I think he turned down Django. And then Jamie does Django.

“Because I think maybe those types of movies are like I can't do it.”

I don't do it. I can't make it. You know, after Earth or whatever the fuck that was, you know, like, like, I don't remember. I don't remember your grandland.

I wrote a huge piece about this. Did you? About Will Smith. Is the Will Smith career arc and was about Will Smith. The Django thing.

Saying everything about his career decisions. In the 20th, 21st century, basically. It was too hot for him. It was. He studied it.

He, he was honestly like an advanced metrics guy. Him and his agent studied box office. And the movies that made the most money. And they were all like outer space. Big action.

And that was like he's just like I just want to do those.

And never really wanted to experiment with anything else.

So Django was like too much for him. After Earth. Jamie stepped right in. I like it. I mean, it's also the craziest thing about the slap is that's the dude who had

the most like his, his almost carefully public call. Yeah, public call. Yeah, and his career was so carefully managed. The, the crazy thing about the slap is that the slap might have been might have not been as efficient as it was. If not for this movie.

Because we'll have to learn. Right. But without checking somebody. We'll have to learn out of throw punches and get his shit straight. So he is later.

That slap came through and you can get out the way that bitch. Because it is moving. I think COVID everything. Everyone's ate that muffler. Everyone's in a haze from COVID. I think the fox.

I'd be now the Wilson with Chris Rocks slap. Is the weirdest thing that's happened. Bro, this century. So 21st century. That's my number one.

So we're this thing that's happened. So listen. I watched it sometimes. I'm like, I can't believe this happened. So our movie.

And then he won an Oscar. What an awesome game. Not the worst. Our movie won a year before. Yeah.

We're still in the haze, right? So that year. Everyone that was involved in two dishes and strangers.

Yeah.

“They act like they care about you for like two years after you.”

And they dumped it. And it's like whatever. So everyone's at. I'm in New York doing hip hop homicides. I've worked all day.

I've gone to sleep. I wake up.

It's a million fucking text messages.

But the first one is from Khalica. And it says. Will Smith. Just punched Chris Rock in the face on stage. Live at the Oscars.

Where are you? I'm like, there's no way that happened. Some, facsimile of that might have happened. But there's no way that that happened. And when I looked up.

That's what the fuck happened. Will Smith walked on stage at the Academy Awards and slapped it. She had a crazy impact how you watched. I was still like I was. I was still like I have a little will spent baggage now.

When I watched Will Smith movies. Because that slap was so weird. I have zero. It's in the back of my head. It's like way down on the list of the most deplorable things.

People have done. Yeah. I have that. Yeah. It was so weird.

No. No. I can't believe he had Chris Rock. Yeah. But I'm watching him.

That's sort of interesting to me. I still can't believe that happened. Rell is the best on his little Rell goes. Yeah. He goes.

Yeah. He goes. But I get it. He's the funniest on that. He's like, hey, he lost his own.

He wouldn't be spent the guy. It happens. Michael Man did a director's cut into that 17. Yeah. Where he basically said I was totally happy with this finished product of this movie.

He said with the hindsight of history, I felt the drama didn't get all the way there. Because he made some tweaks. It wasn't as strong as it should have been. I don't think I changed anything on a movie like heat.

But here the proportion how it made you feel wasn't quite right. And then he made his little tweaks. So I'm sure he had to hand this in. It's like over 150 minutes. It's two hours 40 minutes.

And I'm sure he's like, oh, man, there's so many things I like in this movie. But I can't. Yeah. You can totally win the casting of like the film. Like there's, there's gotta be footage of.

There's probably more Angelow Freddy and Bupundini footage out there. Come on, Daddy. Yeah. It's outside. Let's go, Daddy.

Don't jump in one place. It's probably just more boxing period. Good. That would've been sick. Oscar Noms will spent nominated for Best Actor.

Um, loses to Denzel and training day. We're good with that. I don't know what that works. Yeah. Uh, John Voitt nominated for.

How close so he lost to Jim broadband in Iris. Jamie Foxx, not nominated. Should have been nominated. Should have been nominated. Should have been nominated.

Should have been nominated. Yeah. 110 million made 87 lost money. It's kind of crazy. Yeah.

And it came out.

“Did you feel like the thing that was working against it was the critical reception?”

As we're about to get to or. Why didn't this do better? It came out a week after Lord of the Rings also. Yeah.

Um, critical response was like, eh.

It's good. But it just, I don't know. 87 million still not awful for a one. But the fact that it cost 110 million because man's like, I'm going to have to go to Africa.

Yeah. We're going here. We're going here. We're recreating this. 87 million is bad for one reason.

It's what the will Smith movies before that. I knew that the movie would have problems resonating with people with my dad didn't like it. My dad is the man that handed me VHS tapes of Muhammad Ali. And for some reason, he couldn't connect with the movie like the movie for some reason. He just he didn't like it.

It's also too long for if you're going to be two hours 45 minutes. Then you only get the two screenings a day instead of the three. So you're you're cutting it to your own money. I almost had a stroke. I did split it into two different doings.

Ebert two stars a long flat curiously muted film about the heavyweight champion, lacks much of the flashfire in humor Muhammad Ali. Shot more in the tone of a youogy than a celebration. Um, that he his reviews really good for this. I would encourage people to read it.

Um, but he does say no, no matter an actor could capture Ali completely.

I've never read him and disagree with the review more.

Would you disagree with the fact that the movie in some way should have been like a celebration of Muhammad Ali.

“I think the best thing about this movie is to examine this extraordinary life.”

Like we don't need Muhammad. He the celebration is his life itself. Yeah, what I always want to know from a biopic my one question from everybody or pick is what it cost you. That's the only thing I ever want to know about biopic.

We noted you were great. We're making the movie about you. We noted you did what it cost you. But what do you have to give up?

What personal situations did you leave on the table?

“What skeletons or bones do you have behind you to achieve that type of greatness?”

Because that sacrifices what it takes. That's what this movie is about to me. It's obviously a character or in a person that is just too close to you. I mean, Michael Man doesn't make humorous and celebratory movies. So it's kind of like, you know what?

With Tane and Ibert he wrote a great great piece about the Rocky movie. Watching with Ali. Yeah. And he said he's talked about he spent one day with them. I saw a man enormously entertained by life.

Twinkling with amusement. Lowering the tinted glass window of his role as limousine. So pedestrians could do a double take when they saw it was him. And then he's like he thought Smith plays a play to him as more meditative and subdued. Sad.

And I just think he was like, that's not the guy I spent a day with. And that seemed like it called it. Anyway. Most rewatchable scene. We mentioned the opening.

I think it's like a game cook all the way into the Bondini intro into the list and way and. What's the better Michael Man's sequence other than maybe the bank shoot out? I mean, the opening of heat is is pretty high up there in terms of like an opening of a film. There's there's several battles and Mohicans. And I think a Tane this kind of like Nirvana.

But diners seen in thief. The diners seen this big type romance. Yeah. But this is this is among the best things he's ever put together. Yeah.

Yeah. That stuff is all. I was just looking at Colorado. That stuff all really works. But hey, homie.

Is that my briefcase. God. Damn. We used to be a real country man. Helmys.

Am I brief. I like when list goes. Keep talking. I'm going to fuck you up. It's like.

Just don't kill Tom in that movie. Don't kill Tom in this. This is my collateral. Yeah. Don't kill don't kill Tom in the movie.

Don't kill him. I just run it back three years. For collateral too. For collateral too. It's right.

Day of the soldario.

“More rewatchable scenes that aren't going to win.”

Cause we already have the winner.

Third round six round of the list and fight is really good.

I like when list and quits. When all these on the. On the stool kind of watching list in. I was going to ask you. What's the rap on the.

The list in cheating. With the blinding. Allie thing was that he list and definitely did that. So they think that it was just. That it happened on its own.

That like they will put they rub you with stuff and got on the gloves and it got not with his eyes. But no way. Most people will get it. List and was in scumbag.

Like there's no way he didn't do that. He's a bad man. He was a bad person. Man. He was a heavy champion of world.

Some of the list was a bad person. You're talking to Bill X. Come on. Will you next to not like sending listed. Will you next with love?

So we met to not like sending. We met to not like sending. We're all on people. - No, we can't do what was not moving. - We're looking at that.

- Not a proving of death. - It's not a proving of death. - It's not a proving of death. - It's not a proving of death. - It's not a proving of death.

- No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death.

- No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death. - No, it's not a proving of death.

- No, it's not a proving of death. - The doctor, the gloves, 'cause he was trying to tank the fight for Ali, and it's like a big part of the lore of that fight. - Yeah, so, that's our comment to the corner because they're not going to fight in the boxing guy. So, I didn't know about that. - Yeah, that's a real thing.

- I don't know why that wasn't moving.

“- The movement in the film to show Dundee putting shit in his pockets and then he puts pills in his pockets, right?”

- Yeah. - And then he's getting all of his stuff together, and I was like, oh, this is cool. This is just Michael Mann doing, like, look at this master of his crafts, but I wasn't sure that I read about, like, they're all these, like, allegations, both ways.

- It's amazing that he was blind for one of the six rounds and what's the first.

- And then if you watch it, like, the six rounds, listen, quits after the six, like he kills less than the six rounds. - Yeah. - You're, like, really, fucks him up. Malcolm and the hotel room with Ali, that camera angle of vanpeples with Ali behind him,

just kind of staring out, and it's a long scene, too, that's great. We mentioned Ali turning his back, I'm Malcolm and Africa. Obviously not rewatchable for the typical reasons, but I thought the scene, I'm Malcolm, gets murdered in the Ali and the cars, just really great. - That's also, it's really good for him.

- It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him.

- It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - That's also, it's really good for him.

- It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him. - It's really good for him.

- They're coming after you. - Well, coward. - Ali and the phone. - Yeah, I know where Vietnam is, it's on TV. - When he does the beer con thing.

- Yeah. - And then, power being, I'm like, you know, you just did. - Will Smith's best scene in the movie

you're my oppressors and he does that 45 second.

- You might enemy, not no Chinese, don't be a con, no Japanese. You're my opposing one. I want freedom and does that whole. I think that's his best scene in the movie,

leading into the Torrell way and, and all that stuff. Do you like this scene when Ali and Bandini when he sells the movie? - My two favorite scenes in the movie. That one, and for some reason,

Ali watching, forming, knock out Joe Frazier. There's just such a real fuckin' scene to where you feel like you got everything lined up. - Right. - And then all of a sudden, that scene,

another box of things.

“If you want to see the greatest destruction ever,”

go watch of a great champion, go watch the way, I know you guys have seen these guys have sports fans. How forming destroyed fuckin' Joe Frazier. - Don't go, Frazier. - It's just like a child, but like,

- Cool how they're all sitting on the couch like they're like, this isn't good. - This is not a big deal, and it's like, what the fuck, like we, like we, this guy's announcing himself.

But the Bandini scene is particularly moving to me. - Ali goes on wide road of sports, right into Frazier takes Ali for a ride. You be core, I'm gonna get in the ring, I'm gonna kick you ass. I think James Tony's good in that scene.

- I'm telling you this, yeah, yeah. - Cosel Tazali, he won the trial. - Ali loses to Frazier, move legs, and it's like, okay, hook coming, I like how they did that, but they get on that fight fast.

Ali boomer, we're in into the streets, and then Ali forming, heading into the eighth round, when the ring girl winks at him, and he winks back, and then leading to like him kind of, all right, now I'm gonna go, and he gets forming.

Which is still, that had to have been the most thrilling moment. - You could possibly have, if you loved a teamer and athlete, when he actually beats forming in the eighth round, that has to be number one.

“- What do you guys think of the boxing in this film?”

I like it. - I like it too. - I think he took a more deliberate approach to it. Like, some boxing is about movement, some boxing is about, some boxing, some of some of us in movies,

some of us about movement, some of us about thirds. Like he wanted you to feel the thirds. You couldn't really approximate the speed of a prime, Muhammad Ali. - He would almost have to do CGS though.

- All right, but as far as the movement and the actual impact, I thought they did a good job, and the guys like, unlike other movies, they look like heavy. - Yeah, they are fighting and they did. - And they're hitting each other, yeah.

- I thought the format fight specifically was really, really, really close to the actual fight, the way he's leaning back, the way form and was just, the form and was pounding him. It felt like what was taking a lot of those shots,

what do you think? - It's just interesting because it's like, I look at it from a purely cinematic. Sometimes it's a little bit, the fights in this movie lack a little bit of the stylistic diversity

that Raging Bull has. Like, Raging Bull, he shot each fight in this different kind of way. And he, I feel like he shot to my eye, he shot these fights in a very similar fashion, the entire, like, he was trying to be exactly like the actual fight.

- Yes. - And I think, but I think,

there, I guess I prefer ultimately Scorsese

trying to reinvent the experience of looking at a life magazine photograph rather than, like, perfectly, like, the form and actor took that punch. - Yeah. - I will say that the whole face shake.

- I will say that those two fighters also different. - Mm-hmm.

“- With Jake Lamata, you have to capture brutality,”

which that movie captures the brutality of who Jake Lamata was. - Yeah. - With Ali, obviously he was a very dangerous fighter, but there's an elegance to it. Like, there are times where he's delivering performance

inside of the air. And that's what's so good about the final fight in this movie is a smart decision to end the movie with that fight, 'cause it's Ali at the peak of his performance. - Yeah.

- Not as a fighter. Athletically, he had been, but how he could be theatricaly inside of the ring and outside of the ring. - What's your favorite boxing in a movie? - Not necessarily boxing movie, but the bot, like, fighting in a movie.

- It's such a stupid answer. It's a really stupid answer. Diggs town. - It's not that answer. - It's like, it's such, it's not very serious movie,

but for me-- - It's a good one though. - It's a lie, Diggs town. - I like Diggs town. - Mm-hmm.

- I think the first, the first, Creed fight,

the actual fight. - Tell 'em about in Mexico. - When, no, not Mexico, the one saying whatever that one. - I forget who he fights when, that first round when it's like the entire round.

- Oh, that's you, you want to fight in Creed. - So I'm saying in Mexico, the one in Mexico,

- No, the next time. - He's Creed by his point. - When he's the loners in his corner. - Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. - I thought they did a really good job with that.

- Mike's a good boxer. - Well, and also that it was one shot for like three straight minutes.

“- I thought that's probably the best thing of two.”

- What was your favorite scene, Craig? - I really liked all the cocell, oh my stuff. I found that to be really fascinating. - Yeah. - Mainly also probably just because I can't believe

that something that was happening culturally

and that something that would never happen now

those types of conversations on air like that. And like they're interaction and like even, I was watching old videos of Ali talking to, uh, get cavit and I was just like, man, this is crazy. Like the types of conversations that they're having

is just not really what you get. - Close the thing we had was Bill and KD. - That's right. - Yeah, long time ago, man. - I remember it was the second Ali Frazier

after the fight at Mud Road of Sports and Ali started to make up front of Frazier that he went to the hospital and they got an actual fight in Mud Road of Sports. I think it was the second fight.

- I think it's obviously the first 10 minutes. - Yeah, it's got the first 10 minutes. - You can even say the first 24 minutes. The only thing that like I approach is that for me is the desire arrival, like the Conshasa arrival

or the all it's awesome. - Or running through. - Conshasa. - Yeah. - Also like the fact that it rained right after

he'd not form it out, which is something

“happened in real life is one of the craziest things”

that's happened in the sporting event.

- My dad always said, "God, what am I in the fish?"

- Like two minutes after the knockout. - Yeah. - Pouring hurricane rain. - Yeah. - Like you can't make that shit up.

- What had been like a terribly hot day in the whole nine. It was like, "What's the most two thousand one thing about this movie is here?" - I guess I just have will Smith Critical and Commercial sensation.

- What do you have? - It's kind of the same, but I will say the cast itself is this mixture. Oh shit, he's got it, something's brewing. The cast itself is this mixture of like ascending people.

- Yeah. - Like I mean, Jamie and some of these other people but also like staples of people. They're sending people our Jeffrey Ride, Jamie, and all of this stuff and then you had your older guard

and then we'll just have to have a very 2001 cast. What are you about this? - Including Ron Silver is either the most two thousand and one. - No, when I did the junket. It was the only time I'd ever been to a movie junket.

And I'd ten minutes with Ron Silver and I immediately went into silent rage. God, I'm excited about silent rage. I was like, I'm a huge silent rage guy

“and he's like, "The killer wouldn't die!"”

And he was all excited and we talked about it. - What was the movie that he was in? - With Jamie Lee Curtis. - Lou Steele. - Yeah.

- Lou Steele. - So, yeah. - It could be classic. - Where he was like a killer. It blew, you could blew.

- You went up the cranked out. - You went up on that. - That's the least. - That's the big one, wasn't it? - Yeah, yeah.

- Lou Steele. - It would be the two be all stars last year. My most two thousand one thing. Will and Jade, a young love real chemistry, yo. - Yeah.

- Great to see them happy. - I just believed in those two, some good things ahead. - They're still together. - The Floyd Gundalli butter in my ass and lollipops about my underwear for something I just enjoy.

What do you have in? - I like whenever actors take on athletic roles and commit to it. There's nothing that I hate more than some half-ass actor trying to play basketball,

whatever they really commit to it. - A fat team and doing legendary beggar vans and two weeks of that fight. When they bullshit about it, I don't like it. But when they really commit to it

and bring that to it, I always find myself.

- Sierra, co-cell's voice. - And I just miss the Pat Summer All, Keith Jackson that era. - Yeah. - I mean, even caught through costume. - She just went and answers.

- No, I didn't say that. I was gonna, I just miss like guys who tried to capture the poetry of a moment, rather than just be like, welcome to the fucking, like, - She just even ate that.

- Don't throw like that. - Like, like, like, for you? - No. - Who's left? Bob Cossas, brain, brain.

- It brings it up like that. - Like, for a joke. - No? - No, there's nobody left. Nobody's left.

Those guys are all gone. - There's nobody who can levitate. - Nance? - Nance a little bit. - Yeah.

- But Nance? - Who can levitate about the event with some monologue? - It's good for three minutes. - It's good.

- Like Vin Scully or something. - It's easy to do it on the masters. You know what I mean? - What even called basketball dance at it? - Yeah.

- It's what Tom Renaudy tries to do. My flight gun dolly got down. The uh-oh, I got my bell-run slow motion moment and every box of movie. - We're like, "Really?"

- And they do like the weird and it's like, "Oh, he got fucked up. Have you ever actually had your bell-run?"

- What happened?

- I've hit my head a couple times

where I'm like, "Fuck." - Or yeah. - I got elbowed and basketball once. - Oh, that's good with it. - I hit my head in the attic

“where I didn't realize the doorway was low”

and I just got clocked and I felt it with the ground. - Clocked up and got it. - I think that's a good question. - What's aged the best?

- Mentioned any moment with Jean Clarillo Esposito and J.B.Fox together. - That's just sure to be on the duet it seems. James Tony acting. I love Forman, the actor playing Forman

and just hitting the heavy bag in that scene. - Jesus. - And man just stays with it for like 10 seconds. - Yeah. - No lines for Paul Rodriguez

and then Jim Gray and Bill Plashkey being in scenes. - Yeah. - Bill Plashkey as a line. - He's the answer to a question already. - Yes, too, doesn't he?

- Yeah. Jim Gray is just smiling like a maniac for some reason. What do you have? - I have the champ is here as a rap sample. - Yeah.

- I have Smith's fighting ability.

You are never like he's not fighting

or they're about to double in or anything like that. I talked about this, but the Loki, the fact that it's a Loki Malcolm X movie for an hour. - That was mine. - Since then they've put Muhammad Ali

on a bunch of different shows and stuff. Like there's another one coming out. They're doing the greatest. So like just Muhammad Ali as a cultural figure that they wanna put on an narrative has exploded after this.

- I will also say that

“however, I don't know the only thing about,”

I assume the guy was singing 'cause it's not Sam Cook. Exactly, he's not lip-sinking Sam Cook's voice, but it's a very good approximation of Sam Cook. And that is on the live record, the call on response, that goes on is exactly how it is on the live record.

And it's fucking amazing to watch a bunch of other stuff happening while Sam Cook is playing. It's just that whole sequence is just so brilliant. - I'm just so planning, I thought Van was gonna have a one stage of best hair, and I'm sad I'm gonna have to do it.

- Okay.

- Just a bunch of beautiful black women in this very van.

- William X is back. - William X is here. - William X is here, William X. - Even in the Apollo scene, there's like, good ones in the crowd, it's just like,

Michael Man. - Michael Man was tapping into something. - Dude, he really was. - You should go back to writing, and it should be from the author of the Book of Basketball.

He's changed his name. - William X? - And it's the Book of Black women. - Book of Black women. - Oh my God.

- The pyramid. - Here's my prologue about Jane Kennedy. So that's a good one. So good one. - Very important person.

- Very important for the 70s. - What you know, I will say this though, is that like, from me personally, if we get into this, there's an era of fine that this movie represents and it's hard coming back to in the 60s,

that a lot of people wish was still around. - Everybody look good. I'm not coming down on no one. I got to lose weight, so don't come for me, right? - Everybody looks good.

- You're saying there's an outage. - You're saying. - You're saying. - All of these women look different. You know how to say, body,

the petite women, the tall women, the women are all different complexions. It doesn't seem like this is simply a lot of beauty that we've seen now, and that's kind of how the 90s were. - That's a chapter for William X's book.

Me and Thelma from Good Times. - Who's that on the left? - Remember, you lying. - Yeah. - It's me and remember, met Thelma.

- That's remember right there. - Yeah, really blind. - That's remember, yeah.

“I think he and I will remember right now.”

- Okay. - That looks nothing like the way that I'm done. - We were so excited to meet Thelma. - That's my new. - All right.

- What's our next category? - We're really excited to meet Thelma. Like, we were like star struck. The fight scenes, one last thing for what's aged the best. The only limitation placed on the fighters,

they could hit Smith as hard as they could as long as they didn't knock them out. So it's why a lot of it is like shoulders, body, like nobody's like head hunting with them. - Well, they're fucking hidden.

- Also like if they are shooting other stuff, if you can't have like black eyes in this one, - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's a bit. And then they're at the end of the little helping out.

We'll take one more break and then we'll do the rest of the categories. - See, everybody got for great check, Gordo. - So there's a ton in this, but my favorite is in that opening sequence

when he's training his clay and he's on the speed bag. The camera's behind the speed bag and the way that he is punching it creates the illusion that he's almost on a film strip. And it's being hit in time with the music.

But it almost feels like you're watching like an old film strip because of the way the bag is affecting the way the camera is.

- I'm just like dude, you're the fucking man, bro. - I love in that open, that extended opening scene. How fast they're walking when they're coming around the ramp. And it's everybody in concert and almost like there. - I'm not having to go into the press conference.

- It's like real speed and purpose, it's just really cool. And all these entrants for the form and fights get when the camera's behind him and he comes out and he doesn't kind of realize how many people are there and he's kind of like holy shit.

And the camera comes around and catches it.

“Which I think was actually Will Smith's reaction”

'cause I don't think he had seen it. So he's kind of like Jesus. - Yeah, there's also like the way that it'll be, at the screen's completely dark when he gets off the plane in desire and it goes out.

And then the running in desire

where it is like basically somehow above him

and then comes in behind him. - That's my favorite shot. Running inside, he just, the, it goes from being, this is this full world that he has an explored yet. To this is a guy who can fill up any world

like once he gets there. - Yeah. - So the camera, like tells you that, the camera goes, oh my God, this is a guy, it's a big place. He doesn't know where he's at, but this is Muhammad Ali.

- So it's just like a matter of time before this world becomes his. - Then it thieves, Benihana word, Zaya, obviously. - For sure, you guys either. - Kid cut your person to happiness, that's the opening.

- Same click. - Was there a better title for this movie? - You float it one, or did you float one? - Yeah, would you say, what was yours? - You said, you said, one of you guys,

- The Awakening of Ali.

- Like the political education,

the political awakening, the education of Muhammad Ali. - So with them should Muhammad Ali, something like that. - Like if you just wanted to do a boxing movie, I'd call it the champs here.

- Yeah, like, I mean, - The champ is here. - The champ is here is not bad. - What do you think of that one, Craig? - I like it.

- The champs.

“- Ali, you should have fucking sold itself.”

Like, Ali is gonna be like that. - I know what I'm, I know what movie I'm gonna have to go with Ali, yeah. - Yeah, but you have to go with Ali. - I think, now, it'd probably be Ali

Cole when the champ is here, the way they name movies now. - Cash with sex, in game. - What's your flex? - The Todd Parker award for best character entrance

goes to Jamie Fox as Bundini Brown. I'm called Bundini, rhymes with who do you need. - He was due to some people called me fast black. Some people called me Daddy Mack. And then the show where he's just like,

call him short, because he likes him circumcise. - He's like, this movie introduces Fox. I know he's only in like 16s or 17s or whatever, but man, like when Michael Mann introduces Jamie Fox, he's like, that's the star.

Like, and I'm telling you, the reason why I think he introduces him that way is because he's really introducing Muhammad Ali's performance persona to the audience. That's what these characters are all like. Like Malcolm Micks is his political stuff.

This is the making of his guy. And then when Jamie Fox comes in, the reason why, because even when you watch, you go like, this guy's not in the movie at all. - Who when they go into the press conference,

they're saying the lines together. - Right, yeah. - Like he's introducing you to that part of him.

'Cause the first thing we see from him is the Emmett Hill stuff.

The work ethic, you see the building of a championship. - And Angela was running everything. - And Angela was running everything. And then when Bondini comes in, it's like, oh my god, this is how, this is what Tiffany's got

to become Ali's. - I let Cali out, so I'm just talking. - They're in between rounds as Dundee's talking. - Yeah.

“- 'Cause that's why if you watch the fight,”

he's just fucking yapping. He's doing a podcast. As Dundee's like, hey, watch the rate. Bondini's just on the side going up. - That's why they can touch the champ.

You're the best. - Which is girlfriend week link of the film. We mentioned this. This has to be the answer. We just jumped three years.

- We missed so much. - You have a different one. What do you got? - The original music. I do not think this is the right score for this movie.

I would have had. So it's Peter Bork and Lisa Gerard who did the insider music and the really works for the insider. But I think they should have either out in orchestral score or they should have had like a jazz score.

Like it does not feel appropriate. It takes you out of the time zone, the time period. And I think it would have just been benefited if they had like a really good Terrence Blanchard style jazz or orchestral score.

- I had something different, but it was also in the actual creative. - Michael Mann's grainy digital type of look. - Yeah. - Works.

- It's a love it in collateral, obviously love it in. In this one, it doesn't, I don't know if it works for a period. In this one, it parts of it didn't feel like. - Like when you're in 1968. - Yeah, yeah, it part, sometimes it would just take you

- I think that the trade-off is that

like Kinshasa just is a different situation if you're there with like a bunch of lights. - Absolutely. - You know, like a lot of, and I don't, you know, he will make a movie with a ton of stakes and a ton on the line, and he will be like, "But the camera is on the tip of this pen." And I'm going to shove it in between these two guys while they're fighting.

- Right. - He's a piece of wrist taker. - Yeah, but like, you know, if this movie had the, to you, the orchestral and for me, the visual sweeping scale of last and whole weekends, maybe it lands with people differently. - I threw this in the Sasha Jenkins award.

- Sasha, right. - Even though it's Sasha Jensen, for actor, you can't believe, that it didn't become a bigger star. - Not a gay. - I don't know, I don't know why she, she feels like she could have gone pound for pound

with all the other ones from that era, right? - Yeah.

“- Yeah, I mean, she, I think she's really good in this movie.”

- She's good and beautiful. - She's good. - I have Michael T for this, this, that's another one. - I think where I'm just like-- - Why wasn't he a bigger star?

- Hey, guys, is it possible that there's some boy? - Forces, we're like, well, let me get we a mix. - Vanis, is there a pot, is it, is it perfect? - Vanis, is it possible? (laughing)

- There, there wasn't a climate in the town that could have, as many roles for these people, as what they needed to explore all it is. - But Michael Michelle was on ER. She was on ER, I mean, look, when, when the movie came out. - No, the gay was on, no, the gay was in crash,

no, the gay was in the Matrix sequel. So, is it possible that they're just not enough roles for all the very possible performers, yeah. - Marvin Gaye's daughter. - Another special category.

How would Van Laiton get out of this one? - Which one? - Well, you're inside here and you just started dating a new girl in your wife said she was going back to Chicago to take care of your sick child.

But now she's back in your room. She's like, do you love this new woman? - And she's upset about your new girl

“and you're about to have a fight in two weeks.”

So, what do you tell your wife? - Do I love her? Yeah, I love her. And let me tell you why. I love her because I have to love her

because the CIA is watching me. And by the way, you know the CIA is watching me. You know I'm being watched by the CIA, the press is on my back, everyone's on my back. All right, I'm being surveilled.

I got a lot of pressure. You know what pressure I don't need? I don't need the pressure of you. - You know what I'm about to like this? - Biggest fight in my entire life.

- Why are you doing this to me right now? - Why are you doing this to me? Like, ain't nothing happy? Look at that woman. That's way too much skin for me.

That's not how you even like them. Like I'm like you, right?

But the reality is you're here now.

Now I gotta think about this. I go out there and be killed. Have you seen this guy hit the heavy bat? Let's go. Don't worry about this.

We gonna go watch this guy hit the heavy bat. And then after we watch this guy hit the heavy bat, you then can make your mind up about whether or not you wanna put this in my mind right now. 'Cause I could be killed.

Then what? - You're killing me right now. Just by bringing this up. - Do you know what I'm a much shorter version of this would be?

- What? - Is it Vali just did Vincent from Heat and was like, "You knew when we hooked up, baby!" Then you wouldn't have to share me. - You know what?

- Big people, they should have felt that it. - What's aged the worst? Bill and Jada, the romance. - Maybe. - Thank you.

- We still got a lot of runway. - We are a lot of runway, and by the way, it's a long life. - It's working for them. They still got a family, you know?

It's working for them. - I didn't really have any of their what's aged the worst that we didn't manage. - On the original soundtrack, there is a ton of our Kelly.

- Oh, he's in this one. He's in the greatest, the greatest. - Is he? - In plays in the movie. I thought you had one of y'all's going to use that as an yield drop.

“- That's why I'm winning this Bill's last act.”

- Bill's last act. - Where am I going? - Bill's, Bill's. - Bill's ex. - Bill's ex.

- Bill's ex to last act is, guys, I was hanging out with some people this weekend. Our Kelly, I'm back in on him. - That's your, that's what I said. - Why would I be hanging out with our Kelly

in this scenario? - You're not hanging out with our Kelly. - I'm just listening to his music. - I'm back in on our Kelly, that's your last act. And then we'll know that it's over when you do that.

- But that's not, how about that said, I never really liked

our Kelly's music. Ever, never, it's never a huge fan. - Was your favorite R&B? - Not our Kelly, but just tell me though. - I mean, Bill's Bill's R&B party.

What's that Bill's R&B party? Give me like three songs. I know Sean, Sean, I miss you. I know. - Was never like a huge R&B guy though.

- Also you don't like it, you don't like our music. - Oh, it's like that early '90s was my era for it. - Right. - And Keith Sweat. - See the Vandros.

- Why are you, you're second guessing yourself, but you're not. - I'm not second guessing myself. - I'm just saying like, I never in the 2000s. - No, forget it, the '90s is where you want to be.

- Make it last forever. (laughing) - Make it last. - He loves it so much. - I did, I really did love Keith Sweat.

- Yeah. - But that's the, but the 2000s is not when the R&B. The '90s is the heyday of the R&B. - Yeah, it's New Jack Swing and New Jack Swing.

- I need a baker, I'll put this the third.

Now let me tell you something, I don't know if you know this. - But these are out, these are out like, sex me, six socks.

“- No, you know, yeah, that's how you do it.”

- That likes likes to get down. (laughing) - Or William X, that's screwed up the joke. (laughing) - That's cool.

- And the other one says, "Where's free?" - I think, I know the kids when they watch this movie. When he's talking to Nona Gays character, there's a conversation that they have, where she talks about how he came to her school.

- Yeah, that's tough for him. - And he remembers, there she was like, "Show the shoes that let me know." - Yeah, that's tough. - She had a brain on, I called you a little Indian girl.

- It's the type of shoes. - I told you when I came to your school, baby. (laughing) Craig, what do you got for Flex? - I'm acknowledging that John Void is very famous

in successful as an actor and in the whole thing, but for my millennial experience with John Void, it's not great. I want to give him the band out of bio-83 point. I did not know this was John Void

until I saw the credits. - Wow. - How are you so? - 'Cause I try to not look up a lot and just watch the movie.

Credit's role, John Void, Howard Kossel, blown away. To me, like, that was Coach Kilmer. - That's my guy, Mr. Sir, you know, from Holes. That's National Treasure Guy. And to see him as Howard Kossel crushing it,

unrecognized, but I thought it was fantastic. - He's a phenomenal actor. Whatever he thinks about anything else is his fucking business, but when he gets a friend and I can't even forget this.

- I'm just saying, I'm not going to hold that, that is what it is, but he can get busy. Like, he really can't. - Maybe that's the greatest grandfather. To see our things, Luke Wilson,

could've been hair support, how to take a word. - This isn't really a hot take.

“I think that there is a version of this film”

that could've been made. And I think Michael Mann would've made

an incredible film out of this,

that's just the chancey-escred story that's like, pre-phenomenal, now I don't want it as an alternative to Ali, but the idea that a guy was Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali's lawyer at the same time,

is fucking incredible that I can't believe that you're more in character. - Yeah, that you're more in character, and that we don't have a film about that and a film about that guy is pre-wild.

- What do you have? - This is how I said already. - Yeah. - Will acts better when he doesn't speak in the movie and that's like really tough to do.

But it's a great performance, but a fantastic performance when there's no dialogue. Mine is, I think there's a great of sportsman baseball time in here with a different angle, which is basically Ali and Frazier in doing it that way.

- Mm-hmm. - And I would dump all the other stuff. - Even though I like it in this movie, I don't care about it. - Would you make funny with two Malcolm X,

I'm just doing him versus Frazier? - I don't care about Malcolm X. - I'm saying for this movie. (laughing) - Basically, Ali Frazier is at its heat.

- It's two guys there. - It's Ali and Frazier and it's their three fights. And it's the whole trilogy. - That's it. - Okay.

- That's my movie. - Okay. - And it's about like it's Frazier coming up and then it's all over the world and I'm not in with Islam in the 64.

I'm like starting around 68. - There's no going for it. - Okay, wait. So are you doing co-leads in this movie? - Yeah.

- That's the only thing. - That's why it didn't happen. - You're gonna have to sell it by a pick. - You're gonna have to sell Joe Frazier to people.

For boxing people, Joe Frazier is an incredible.

Do you think Michael T. Williams and could have done Joe Frazier? - Probably. - I had a, I had a turn at some point in my life where I actually became Team Joe Frazier 'cause I just thought he was putting such a horrible spot

with the Ali stuff. I feel like he became the sympathetic figure eventually. It took me, I don't think I was in until my mid-30s until I really fully saw it. - So Brian Gumball had this same thing.

Brian Gumball actually wrote this article back in the day. - I remember. - Oh, you talked. You said you said you'd out in when we were kids.

So Brian Gumball had to say what, what growing up to me is understanding. Like when you listen to Marvish Frazier talk about like going to school and everybody's making fun of him at school 'cause Ali says your dad is an Uncle Tom

when really this guy was not an Uncle Tom. - Well, he called him Gorilla, like he did all that really bad stuff. - But growing up is realizing that you're, you know, that's, that about your heroes and that once again, the biopic is what did it cost you?

What are the skeletons?

“- That's what I, you know, it's basically the ghosts”

of Manoa book that Mark Kramer wrote. - There was a Frazier documentary too. Frazier Ali that's tilted more toward Frazier that's good, but I just think they're dynamic. And then Ali, to him it was all about selling the fight

not realizing the cost it was doing to Frazier.

- There's a, so I read an article back in a day

“about how Joe Frazier carried this his entire life, right?”

- It's so bitter about it, his entire life. And this actually spilled over into Joe Frazier, a lot of times being way less than sensitive about Ali's Parkinson's, where only his life, he was kind of a joke about it.

- Yeah, he's like, I'm, I still have my faculties. - You can show who won the fight. - Who actually won, who won those fights. So there's, they were adding event together. And because the articles talking about how Joe

Frazier need to let it go, they were adding event together. And they were like, yo, you guys should hit the heavy bag. And Joe Frazier goes, I'll hit it. And Joe Frazier who's still in control of all of his shit, gets up there and starts whaling on the heavy bag, you know.

It's like in the 80s, so he's probably like in his 50s or something like that, he hasn't lost any of the time, we need a power, he does all that that stuff.

And he comes back feeling like I finally fucked over this guy, right?

I'll leave walks up to the heavy bag and goes. Did you guys see that? And the whole room starts laughing. And he made a full out of him again. And it was just like, Joe, just give it up.

He just couldn't get around him. Casting what ifs couldn't find any except for Will Smith turned down Ali and then Ali called Will Smith. And asked him to do it. And at that point, you can't say not Ali.

And that was that. What type of shit do we'll be on? I don't know.

“But no, I think it's justifiable that it's”

to intimidate him for role. Like, what are you going to do? You're playing the mind. Yeah, you're playing the mind. You want to do the right thing?

You're playing the mind. Like you got to try it. Well, he needed to get there. Yeah, he's like, no, I got to do I robot. Seriously, that's probably the same.

I mean, that's not it. That's what I got into background. See, I mean, do you play out? Do you play out in your head, Denzel, doing this? As Mohammed Ali, I don't think it works.

I don't think it works either. I don't think he's big enough either. You're not big enough. Will Smith has six three. That was part of what was made that he's perfect.

He looks like heavyweight. Yeah, yeah. Best that guy word. It's all graduated that guy's as as we mentioned. Yeah.

It's not very, very short.

“I think Barry was the one who would go with it.”

But he's a Michael Mann, that guy. Yeah. DM waiters, Don King, Joe Frazier, who are Veronica. Is Jamie eligible? No.

Too much. Too much. Or Veronica Porsche. I think you got to go. I go Michael T.

I go. I go. That's it. We cast in couch director city like case for James Tony, just just put it out there. I had him on the list.

Yeah. Spike Lee, we can talk it out. We can talk all in for Stoneout. I'm glad it played out the way it did with Michael Mann, because I don't think there

was any way to make this movie perfect, so you might as well make it stylistically incredible.

And again, when did he make Michael Mann, so it was like 92? 91 or 92. So if you're doing this version of the movie, I don't know how he just was like, yeah, I'm going to run back my Malcolm X stuff, I don't know. I think he would have made a different film.

He probably would have not had that stuff in at all, right? I think it would have been a really awesome movie, but I don't, like, I'll accept and like this movie the way it is. Half veteran research, Will Smith was a Paul Barrett, at least funeral. Will Smith and Michael Mann put up their salaries at the movie, went over budget.

Yeah, because Will Smith has come off wild, wild west, so like there was some money stuff. Smith didn't want to meet Ali for months, and then seven months in the filming, Ali came to the set and Smith did his whole trash talk, Ali, thank for 50 minutes, and Ali was impressed and turned to Howard Bingham and said, how could you even tell me I was so crazy? Imagine doing Ali for Ali.

Oh, you know what, we, for, for Dianne, John Carlo, I think Espizito would, would count for Dianne, wouldn't it? Yeah. He's in for seeing. He's in my forlex category.

Okay. What's your forlex category? Let's hear it. The David Cruiso stuff of legends of war for Carate, who definitely should have been spun off into their own sequel, I would love to see a movie with Jan Carlo as Ali's dad.

It's him watching all of this crazy ass shit happen to his son. I love that character. I love the character reminded me so much of my dad, that character, he think about it. That character's going from watching his son be the best amateur heavyweight to getting it. Then this son joins the nation of his long and changes his name.

He got to tell, it's his name. So he's done all of this work, and now his name, Cash is Clay, is going to be everywhere. Except it's not going to be everywhere.

His son Mary is the woman, loves the woman, he meets Bondini Brown.

“I think you would have been a really such fucking interesting.”

It was awesome. There's so many characters in this movie that you could make a Howard being a movie. You could make a Bondini Brown. You could make a Bondini movie. You could make a Cacell movie.

You could make a Don King movie. I mean, Fraser. But the more I saw Jean Carlo screaming, the more I wanted to see. Yeah. He picked Span.

Oh, I got one more half as as in their research. The guy, there's the afternoon Albert Hall in this movie. Yeah. He plays Elijah Muhammad in this, but in Malcolm X. Yeah.

In Malcolm X, he plays a character named Bains, who is a fictitious character that was there that sort of be like, he leads on a Malcolm and his prison conversion, right? Right. He introduces Malcolm to Elijah Muhammad in this movie. He plays Elijah Muhammad.

He is also the Boat Commander in Apocalypse. I know how much he knows.

I had some notes on his living room.

Thought we could need a more furniture. Oh, yeah, William. Yeah. What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old?

What do you have for the two-year-old? Yeah. What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old?

What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old? What do you have for the two-year-old?

What do you have for the two-year-old? He's taking an elbow, he's coming off while I'm West, so he's like, he's wobbling. So if not this, what's his apex then? I think it's the... I think it's independent.

It's the anime of the state.

“We litigated this when we did anime of the state, I think.”

It's in the lab that he does the series of like sequels and stuff, like... Yeah. I can make an argument. He goes, "Fresh Prince independent state men and black." That's tough to beat.

I make an argument that will submit, will submit at the absolute peak of his powers - Hitches a movie that legitimately, everything else that we're talking about, all that stuff, those movies have conceits big aliens, all that type of shit. "Fresh Prince" is very close to what I'm talking about. Hitch is Will Smith directly demonstrating what a devastating movie story is.

He charms us through the entire movie and makes it into a movie. It's a good movie. It's not on the rewatch, but let's do it. Fox, no. Ollie, movie's yes. The Jady Will relationship, probably.

James Tony. Still fighting. And he's in Ollie. Yeah, maybe. I think it's 90s for James say.

He was like the undisputed super little way champion, I don't know. Done king impersonations in a movie? Yes. Cosel impersonations. Yes.

Fox and movie's no. Apex Mountain for Kousel impersonations. Don King. Vingraems. Do you remember that one?

What was he? Vingraems did the Donkey movie? Oh, that's unshowtime, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Or HPO. One of them. Yeah, that was a lot more. Yeah, that was a motherfucker. Michael Mann.

No. It's the insider. I think that this is, like I said, this is the Andy, you call it. We call Apex Mountain. You call it the Imperial phase, which is like a pot music term, but they're both at peak

of their powers per se. But I don't think this is Apex Mountain. I think it's insider. Insider was kind of a box office disappointment though. No.

But it got Oscars. Yeah.

It leads to like, I'm going to spend 110 million on my Ollie moving there, like go ahead,

Michael Mann. Right. Yeah. I think that run is the Apex, and it might be anybody's Apex, maybe like Spielberg, Danny, it's not to me the guys that have them back to back like that.

Best name for a racehorse. I'll leave Boomai. It's pretty good. Or just Boomai. Bondini.

Bondini. So. Cruiser Hanks. What do you want to see play Ali CR? Is it in blackface or is it like, just make a William X.

Get your guy. I had Hanks as Cousel. Okay.

“I mean, do you have to like, is that the only way?”

So that. Cruiser to have any play for us is the Angel of Denny. C'mon, Danny. C'mon. Can I run with you?

What do you have Craig? Stuff her. Hanks is Cousel. I want to options. Do we have?

That'll have Bob and Earl. Scorsese or Spielberg. Bring it back for this one. Scorsese. Scorsese.

Okay. Picking nets. We mentioned a few. A big one for me. They show the OS Cori Fight.

And then Ali goes and meets Joe Morton in the diner. Mm-hmm. And then three weeks later, MLK gets killed. The Cori Fight. OS Cori happens through weeks after MLK got killed.

Ah. They fucked up the scenes. I was also worried.

Is that true?

And sitting at just a table, I don't think that was true.

“I think they probably took some liberties.”

When Joe Fraser asked Ali if he needed any money, Ali took the money in real life. Yeah. That scene was true. Really? Yeah.

Ali was broke. Yeah. He ran out of money. That Angel would bring that up, which is you shouldn't do, but only. We mentioned the dates that this movie desperately needed dates.

And then it's a hardcore Ali nitpick, but he's speaking differently by the time we're in Zair. Oh. He's a little bit slower. Yeah.

It's not as bad as after Manila, but it's definitely like the guy in the '60s is- You start to watch it. Watch it. Yeah. He's just slowing down a little bit and he just seems the same throughout the movie.

Actually, the slowing down becomes a part of it too. They're too very distinct Ali's. There's a super fast talking Ali, and then there's a slow we're talking Ali down. Which is where we are. Yeah, a lot better.

Remember. Any other nitpicks? No. Sequel Priko Prestige should be all black cast on touchable.

Prestige TV would have been dead like a $150 million per hour of that.

They're doing it. That's what the greatest is. That's what it is. Yeah. It's a prestige.

It's an Amazon joint. Michael B. Jordan and him are doing, yeah. Who's playing Ali? I can't remember. I know that my man, aiming from snowfall, is playing sunny listed.

Okay. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, for you, the Florida Zainlow, Robert Evans, Dr. Charles Nichols, or someone else here? Obviously Fox is incredible, but have you guys thought about Pete Possaway as Bun Do you need Brown?

No, I have that. No, I'm Jewish, and he's Muslim, and because of that, he tells me I need to give up certain things like pork and white women. I can give up pork, but white women, not after a little taste. I had Ted Levine as the FBI agent, but as Buffalo.

Yeah. Yeah. Just want to ask her, who gets it? Interesting category. Fox.

Fox. I go Jamie. It's Fox. Do you have Fox or Voight? Oh.

I'm going Voight. Okay. That's Ali in the, in the thing, a guy named Jalen Best. Okay. Yeah.

Probably an answer for questions. I'll answer one.

“Why didn't more boxers try to send a list in Dr. Glob's trick?”

Of course they tried to show them. It seems like a great idea for evil boxers. And did somebody listen through the second fight? I mean, almost definitely. Fan and punch.

Depends on which law you believe, you believe the Lord Ali was so quick, he could land a right that the camera couldn't even catch knocks about. We're looking out. Probably the most crooked boxer of the last 75 years, the law about the fact that the Mafia owns any list.

I see. Yeah. He made him take a thought. Also, like if you watch it, there's a moment when he's down when he tries to get up and he does like this almost like pro wrestling and falls back down, it's really bad.

I always thought he threw it.

You think he threw it right? Yeah. Probably. The memorabilia you'd most want from this movie. The one of the toughest ones we've ever had to do for me.

The the hand tape that the ref signs to be like, I've checked, you know, in the beginning. That's awesome. Yeah. I don't know what I would do with the use tan tape, but still cool. I have the movie robe from the first list and fight where you can see it says the

lip on the back. They try to get him going as the lip. There you go. Because guess what? Guess what?

You need a name. Ali. I like to always like those old vintage gloves. So either the gloves use that will smith you and the thing. By the way, with the fight scenes, they tried all kinds of stuff with gloves to make

it. So they would look more realistic and nothing worked. Like big, bigger, softer gloves. So it could really, and nothing, nothing worked. Coach Finnsack, Ms. Magua, where best worst life lesson?

Dude, free A&E Z free is real and real is another fucker. Yep. Best of future choice, I have when we were kings. Malcolm X. Malcolm X?

Okay. Chris X. Tough on who won the movie?

“I'm to say Michael, man, because that's why I watched the movie.”

Now, I would say that, but I do think that his visual style, while fans points really well taken about whether it works for period, I think his visual style is the reason I

All I know is you can't necessarily say that we'll win the movie.

“I think actually, this is one of the rarest situations when wheels kind of out.”

And after that, he did get nominated for the first time.

He'd get nominated for the first time. He did get nominated for the first time. I personally, what I want on a rewatch is stupid. I kind of think Jamie Foxx won the movie. I think as, like, a blueprint or a--

And using it as a-- Yeah, I think Jamie Foxx won the movie. And obviously, man is like, that's my fucking guy. Yeah, he's probably going to go back and do collateral again. Yeah, that makes sense.

I have Will Smith in the moment, and then over the years, Michael Man. Because I think he's the reason to keep coming back to this. Even though it's a pretty, you know, it's a biopic. Yeah. I don't think I'll be watching the Freddie Mercury Biopic 25 years from now.

But this keeps sucking me in. Mm-hmm. No, Freddie Mercury Biopic has some good scenes in it. What's the boy you're next to think of Freddie Mercury, man? Yeah.

Enjoy it. Oh, OK. Yeah. Well, he next contains so many different Craig.

You never saw this movie.

No. You blanched at the time. He was scared. I mean, it really was long. It's like a funny movie.

Yeah, but once you get-- once you get rolling, you're like, all right. I thought the acting across the board in this movie was superb. Like, I thought everybody was just fantastic. I thought there were a lot of shit.

Like, Xiair was amazing. They'll sell stuff. I thought it was great, the Malcolm X stuff. I thought it was great. I don't know.

It's probably a generational thing, but I felt that just like kind of disconnected this movie. I don't know why. I just felt like something was missing out of this movie. And I don't know what it was.

I think I struggled with-- I couldn't really feel the weight of all these talent as a boxer in this movie.

Like, to be honest, I wasn't like this guy's an amazing boxer watching the movie.

Like, I just-- No, it's funny about that. That's the one thing that the movie being made for us that you don't have to convince us of. Right.

And I, you know, other than clips here and there, I don't really know. Like, I was kind of bummed that we didn't really get a lot of the feed stuff, which I understand will Smith can't do. But the movie magic of trying to really make--maybe I'm just like rocky and creed brain, or I like a little bit more of the theatrical boxing style.

Well, like when the movie ended, I was kind of like, I don't know. I was like, I don't exactly know what my takeaway is supposed to be or what the point of you are supposed to be from this movie, but I enjoyed it. Maybe it's about too many different things. Maybe.

It could be. Maybe the movie is a little bit about political stuff, a little bit about personal stuff.

“What's your about boxing to be when the movie ended at boxing?”

How's it going? Okay. Do you think whatever gets to the point where we can just see G-I, the actor's face over the actual boxing footage for our boxing movie? We don't want that.

Why would you want that? I don't know. I'm asking. I didn't get the answer. Yes.

We could definitely do that. Probably do that right now. Thank you. It's been a long time. It's been a long time.

It's been a long time. I'm saying for some of the just slide it in so that we get all the athleticism and stuff from the movies. So they do, they like, the age, actors, and put them in bed. Yeah.

The Irishman, you like the Irishman. I'm saying, would we ever cheat? Could you accept it right now? Like you put on all these legs on Will Smith or something. It looks like what they try to do with force gump when they put force in the

different. Well, I mean, what you're really asking for is for there to be like an AI facsimile of, because that will work the best, right? Like, what you're asking for is an AI facsimile that can approximate the speed power and position it.

But then to watch if I can Muhammad Ali YouTube video, that's the problem. Yeah. That's the thing. I think if you wanted to do something where it was like, I want Timothy Shalame to play like a middleweight fighter, but he's, you know, like, the capital limits of what

he can do. Yeah. Like, well, that's a good example though, because the ping pong was all AI. Yeah. He was actually playing ping pong.

It was CGI. I mean, CGI. Yeah. He was playing ping pong, but it wasn't playing at the level of the movie. The deal here is that, like, when you're a boxer, something you've been doing, most

of the greats, not all of them, but most of it's something you've been doing since eight or nine years old. And they're like fast and slow twitch muscle things. There's movement, their angles, there's all that stuff that you just can't get ready for in a movie camp to kind of like, look, like, you know how to do it.

“That's what there's a lot of things like that.”

Yeah. So you just. It's refreshing to see William X, open to new technology, because I live on religious leaders are a little bit, you know, but you know, you know, oh, William X, when is the next million-man March?

You know, it's a good boxing movie for boxing scenes, the hammer that I'm crawling. Yeah. Because Coral actually boxed one of the rare ones, everyone else kind of learns how to box for the movie, but rarely do we get the actor leading the movie. Who actually boxes boxes a little bit, just a long box, did he mess around?

No, he kind of learned that. Is there a boxing story that you would love to see made into a movie, a fighter, a fight? Easy for me. Emile Griffith. Oh, good documentary.

Why bill?

See, killed somebody in the ring.

That's not why.

“Well, and, and add some, just hiding some secrets.”

Yeah. It was, uh, he was gay the whole time in middleweight. Yeah. But like, just one of the, those dominate, middle weights, fucking over everybody, but also, gay guy, the guy I killed in the ring kept making fun of him for being gay.

Oh, wow. And he killed him in the ring. Jesus. It's a good documentary. Did they make a word gotty movie?

Well, they did not, but they made the fighter, but though some of my word gotty wasn't it?

I always thought a great movie would be sugary Leonard winning the herns fight, getting

into, like, cocaine and the detached retina, and then the five years leading to the agrofighter. Did, and trying to beat agro, get to, and obviously you're, you're, Griffith is much more obscure to sugary.

“That would be about the story and how about the thing, did sugary get to biopic level?”

I mean, I personally think he did for some of the movies that have been biopics, like did syndrome and get to biopic level, you know, about the depression. Sure. That was the most famous fighter since I was leading. He weren't Tyson.

Yeah, he, like, he definitely was, but like, there was something to where he seemed, like,

bridge between, obviously, and Tyson, you like, he held it down. So, to me that the sugary story is like, Ralph Sampson getting hurt in the 86 finals, but then coming back and winning the 93 finals or something. Like, it felt like his career was kind of over. The detached retina seemed like a desert.

Yeah.

“And he started to have a whole bunch of issues.”

Right. Then came back and then when he fought agro, he was like a four to one underdog. It's like four years of three years off. How many years off? It took five.

Yeah. Like, it just comes back. Five of '87. Do you like, do you? Does any of this rig a bell at a none of you?

I mean, I know these names, obviously, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, CR thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Thank you. Craig and go out. Thank you. Eduardo. Thank you.

Anyone else to thank? Matt. Matt. Thank you. We'll be back next week on the rewatchables with the 30 year anniversary of

she's the one, which she can watch at Netflix before we do the podcast. There you go. (upbeat music)