ROLL ON: Stop Optimizing Your Life & Start Living It, Seeking Depth Over Algorithms, The Future of Podcasting, Artemis II, Media Diet & More

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It's nice to be back yard, this much closer. Thank you. I know. We did a solo episode recently outdoors, people seem to enjoy it, and so why not do it again?

Yeah man. More is better, right? Yeah. I might not leave here, by the way. After this, I'm going to use your gym, and then your sauna, and cold plunge facility, and then I might sleep there tonight.

“You're always welcome, but you should check the Airbnb app to make sure it's available.”

This is a bit nostalgic because for years, we recorded the podcast at my house. You can't see it, but right off camera over there is a room where we recorded, I don't know, how many episodes up until COVID, and then we transitioned into a studio, but it's kind of nice to be back here. I'm feeling nostalgic. We actually had some technical difficulties. We recorded it before recording. Which is part of the nostalgia, I suppose. Yeah. And it's nice to do it. I want to just have kind of like a low key casual hang with you.

Okay. Which is part of this reimagination and experimentation and exploration that we're doing with the show these days, as somebody who's been podcasting for coming up on 14 years.

“So we're breathing a little bit of fresh air into this experience, and I'm having more fun doing it than I have in a long time by trying things and recognizing.”

There aren't a rules. When the podcast began, it was just all fun and adventure, and I was a traveling salesman with a case, and I would go to people's houses and record in hotel rooms and conference rooms. I wasn't making any money. I never thought that it would be a revenue generating enterprise, and then it became successful, and then it became like this whole thing, like this engine, and it got easier and easier to just do it a certain way. And I think I lost touch with the experimentation and the trying of new things. The beginner's mind. Yeah, the beginner's mind. And now we're in this new phase, and it feels much more like play, and I'm enjoying it. Hopefully that's translating to the audience, and the solo episode. So it started with the looks maxing episode that we did.

That was experimental. By the way, how old is Zuma now? Five and a half. So what is what's his relationship with looks maxing? Has he signed up for Andrew Tates Academy? You know, at his age, at his age, he is still not really self-conscious. Just a little bit, but like in his age you can't really, like if you said something to him about his looks, he would just laugh and have a good time with it, wouldn't even phase him. So Clivicular hasn't gotten his claws into Zuma yet. No, but I worry because he doesn't like boobos. So when he gets a boobo, he's very consumed when will the boobo go away.

Right. Well, this is the beginning of his cosmetic obsession. Maybe the Clivicular has his way, but Clivicular likes boobos. Apparently, well, is he in jail now? Is he shot an alligator and went to prison? He did? That fucking bastard. So anyway, this story is only going to end one way. An alligator is going to get revenge. Well, the guys like using math and anyway, that's a whole other story. You know, one point being the experimentation started with this looks maxing episode. Right. And then I recorded these solo episodes. And these episodes are getting much more interest and engagement than anything that I've done in recent years.

And I think roll on was the original experimentation. That's true, 2021, which we started in the middle of the pandemic. Right. As sort of a parasocial hang.

“Yeah. And a way for me and you together, like for us together to like share our perspectives and take the lens off the gas a little bit.”

But even roll on started to feel very program. Yeah. And what I've noticed as the podcasting space has evolved is a growing desire for a more authenticity, a sense of something feeling just real. And an emotional connection, like a parasocial relationship because it's really crowded out there right now. And I think that the days of getting a special guest on your show becoming like an event.

Those days are over. Right. And everybody has a million choices out there. And even the notion of two people sitting across from each other at a desk. It's hard to get excited about that format.

Yeah. So many shows doing that and so much content out there. And I think people want to just feel connected to a guest or to a host to feel like they're experiencing something that is, you know, heart centered and real.

“And parasocial like us on on some level like they're hanging out with their friends. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what people always said about that's why our core role on people like just hearing us talk about stuff.”

You know the other thing I realize. What's that? So many of the podcasts host who are in my kind of genre. Okay. Not all of them, but I'm saying, right. There's a lot of them. These guys are dorks. Wait, first of all. That's unpacked that for a second. What is your podcast genre? I want to know the personal development. You know, I think I think people misconstrued this show like I get positioned as somebody who's in the self optimization like world right. I don't really consider myself that maybe that's how it's translating for a subset of the audience.

Just kind of the self help. Here's a host who's going to have the author of the next book that's coming out or the expert on this or the expert on that self improvement. Yeah, self improved generally, you know, health, yes, but also psychological health spirit health and all of that. I don't see myself as in that kind of optimization vein, but there are other people out there who do something similar to what I do. Right. And I want to do something different, you know, I want to do something different.

I feel it because so this is kind of part of that experiment just to kind of piggyback on that like. It's just gotten so kind of boring where like everybody wants to improve you or it's just like it's become uninteresting like what what used to be interesting. Oh, here's this. It's kind of an academic that no one's heard of, it has this interesting kind of mind-blowing perspective. Now, there's so many of them and everyone wants to improve you and it's almost like, you know what why don't we just all relax a little bit maybe the improvement we all need is to stop thinking about ourselves for a little while.

Yeah, there's an evil gazing like self obsession that comes with the self improvement personal development space and self obsession is an antagonist to personal growth.

There you go. And so the narcissistic kind of ego centric aspect of being in this state or in this pressurized situation where you feel like you always have to be improving yourself.

“I don't think it's necessarily healthy and I'm you know, I plead guilty. I'm not only I participating in this. I'm a perveyor of it, so I've been reflecting on that and I think you'll think that's with your for a Jim photos.”

Yeah, I'm I'm a contradiction Adam, but I think at the core of it, like if you dig down beneath all of the layers like what is driving all of this is a fundamental sense of being broken, you know,

and and we always have to be fixing ourselves. What would it be like if you if you embrace the fact that you're not broken, we can all improve.

But it doesn't have to come from that place of feeling like there's something wrong with you necessarily. I think the the real truth is that like it's all just a repair job like this whole construct of society, you know, I've been you're going to get into streaming later. I won't bring this up then, but I started to watch rewatch Mad Men again for the fourth time.

It's like that's just fact and so improvement doesn't solve that kind of existential crisis. What solves it is tuning into real moments and that's my feeling and so like I'm less interested in optimizing it. I've never really been into optimizing or proving I like the organic nature of connecting.

“That's to me like the only way to kind of get us through any sort of tumult.”

You need to get on the creatine.

Hey, am I potty? Are you feeling you see in the punch? I don't see nothing but love and beauty. Thanks Adam. When I look at you. Was that too cynical? Was that too dark for people? No, I don't think so. I mean, Don Draper is a, you know, an anti hero and somewhat of a dark figure with a nihilistic perspective. It's interesting that you are connecting with him.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have. I don't see him as nihilistic. I mean, I understand why people think that. Like there are no rules. That's not what I'm saying. I guess what I'm saying is there is soul beyond all the construct and we get caught up in the construct and improving our selves can be a very nourishing experience and I've done it myself and I strive to be better also. But like what I strive more for is like that authentic feeling of connection and presence. And I think that lost in the nihilism of John Draper is a soul and he does connect and he does understand the nature of things.

Maybe it's just me projecting and maybe he is written as a nihilist and I should just, but I think that's the perception.

“But I feel like there is a soul nature that the other people that he works with don't have that he understands and that's why he can communicate on a deep level.”

As an advertiser. I don't know why we're talking about this old show, but like I guess what I'm saying is that's what is appealing to me more and more now. Like then certain rules for getting better or improving this or that because I think what we found is that there are all unintentional consequences of any improvement.

You know, and so it doesn't always go the way you want it and life doesn't go that way. It's not what it's about. And so for me it's about I just want to encourage that connection.

And well, there's a heart-centered, good faith, desire to become a better person. Yeah. And I think that commitment to yourself and the impact that that has on other people is valorous and totally of your investment of time. But I think for many people, the personal development urge comes from a discomfort with the uncertainty of life. And so when you think about what Phil Stutt's has to say, these three truths, like no matter what you do, there will always be pain, uncertainty and the need for constant work.

And I think in this moment we're experiencing an acute case of uncertainty, everything feels much more uncertain.

I think things are always uncertain, but because of the way the world is at the moment, it feels it feels particularly uncertain.

And so what do you do with that uncertainty? Uncertainty is uncomfortable. What can I control? Well, I can control my body, maybe I can control my mind, maybe I can control my emotions. And that gives you a sense of grounding. And so, but that's sort of an unhealthy way to approach personal development. Like, oh, if I can just optimize my morning routine or if I dial in my nutrition, then I can absolve myself of all of these uncertainties that unconsciously are making me deeply uncomfortable about life at the moment.

“Yeah, I mean, I think you said what I'm trying to say, which is the uncertainty of life drives like, what is improvement? I guess is the question, right? Is the improvement?”

It's, I agree. Like, I go on new once a year to like trim down. I have goals, personal goals, fitness goals and things like that, but I think I'm not sure that improves me. What I know improves me is meditating. What I know improves me is getting in the ocean. What I know improves me is connecting and being more diffuse. So it's like, to me, this is just my opinion for me. I'm not suggesting everyone should feel this way. But for me, the less I think of my own bullshit, the better off I am, the more diffuse I am, the more I am, I am the sky and the trees and the wind and the ocean, the more I feel alive inside, and that to me is self improvement, I mean to me. So that I guess that's what I'm trying to say, and like the more we, we go away from self identifying, probably the better, at least that's my personal opinion.

If you switch it from being present or being serviced-minded into this is your mindset optimization protocol, then I don't know what the word is would be, but you can drape it in a certain way.

To make it sound like it is a peptide. You know what? I got it. I had a nice life peptide the other day, so we do zoom and I do breakfast bros on the weekends. It's just just the two of us we go out, but sometimes other people join us, and you don't have to be a dude to be a bros, so just so you know, but at breakfast bros was just the two of us, and we were sharing a blueberry muffin waiting for our, our plate of food to come. And I just got struck with one of those lightning bolt moments, we all have them, where like you realize actually this is the only thing that matters, like everything else I'm obsessed with in my life, makes no difference at all. These moments, this moment here, I'm going to be thinking about this moment, I'm going to be, I don't think I'll ever forget a moment like that, and it's like, and to like have that moment where you're like, whoa, that's all really it is, is collecting these amazing valuable moments for our lives because they pass and then they're gone and then you're back into the obsession swamp.

And then boom, lightning bolt, to me, like the more present you are, it doesn't mean you're fully present, like walking around like some light being that's crazy, like nobody's like that, maybe maybe a few people. I mean even Jesus probably had his shit list, you know what I mean, like people that pissed him off, but like, if we can bridge more of those moments, be alive more often and collect more of those moments, like that to me is kind of like blew my mind. So I just got, you know, I don't know what it is, and I'm in this era where like, what is important to me is that, and this to me, what you're doing, what we're doing here is kind of that, you know, like what's what's the distillation of the podcast, it always was conversation.

“It always was just sitting down and just talking and figuring out what's important to us in that moment, it's always been that way.”

Look at you, you're ascending Adam. You know, that's a looks Max and term, right, ascending.

I guess, but what you're ascending is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That was, that was happening. Yeah, okay. And I have not microdose before this podcast don't worry for us. Microdosing on love.

I love and producing on love right now.

“I love that. I think that's absolutely correct, and you know, any, any parent can testify. Yeah, to that.”

I mean, you still haven't. You're going to college, you know, taking our, our, our youngest, to the East Coast tomorrow to look at some colleges. That should be awesome. Yeah, it's like this is, this is like the joy in the gift, you know, like you get to do these cool things. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Freaks of Nature. If you're like me active outdoors a lot, prone to sweating tons, and into clean personal care products, then you probably have had a few experiences testing some of these products.

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“but convention centers aren't exactly inspiring. Now places for idea exchange, artistic advance, and so I actually thought it was cooler, because that meant all the events were in different types of, you know,”

they were domiciled in all different kinds of buildings, it made them more interesting, didn't seem to put a damper on the experience at all, like I had such an amazing time,

but I had this moment where in one day I went and introduced Tom Sachs onto the main stage and got to say a few words and shower them in love and bring them up on the stage, which Tom Sachs being a guest on the podcast, this New York City sculptor and kind of icon in the art world awesome guy, and he was so happy that I was there, he gave me a hug and he's like, I can't believe it, and it was like, are you kidding? Like, this is so cool, I can't believe you asked me to do this, like, this is amazing, and then I left there,

and I went over to the Rivian House and got to spend like two hours with RJ Scarrange, the founder and CEO, and we got in a new R2 and drove around, it was all mounted with cameras, and we recorded kind of a comedians having coffee and cars or whatever that sign felt thing is, like a version of that, and that was so fun. Yeah, I had such a great time, he's such a nice person and it was exciting to help tell the story of the release of the R2 vehicle for them,

“which is a great story. Do you guys do any Carpool karaoke?”

We didn't sing, nobody wants to hear that, nobody wants to hear that. No. That video hasn't come out yet, I don't know what's going on with that, but that I'm sure that will come out at some point soon. Very cool. And then after that, I left and went to a party at this bar in the late afternoon with Tyler, my steps on a producer, and it was a party put on by a magazine/production company called Monster Children, which is an Australian publication. It's sort of a surf skate punk rock, sort of sort of enterprise.

And I went there to meet Edo Brian from Radiohead and Ed Sun, who I'd met the night before,

to just get to know him, because later that week, I was going to be doing a Q&A with him on the precipice of him releasing his second solo album called Blue Morpho,

and this documentary that he made to accompany that record, which is all about this journey that he's been on with mental health. So in one day, Tom Sachs, RJ, and then Ed O'Brien, like Radiohead, like my favorite band, I was like, "How is this my life?" But I get to have these kinds of experiences, and such a diversity of experiences, like a sculptor, you know, and this guy who is reimagining automotive transportation, and then this musician in the most iconic band of our lifetime. Right now, it was just so cool. I just couldn't believe it was my life, and then I got to do it.

Yeah, I was like, I couldn't imagine having a better experience. And then I got to host this conversation with Ed in a church, like two days later, after screening,

his documentary was screened, and then it was basically his cathedral, and we got to have his conversation,

and they adorned the entire cathedral with plants.

“And it was really about his mental health, and his relationship to his creativity, and just magical, you know?”

Wow. It was really, it was such a cool experience. That is a cool experience. Yeah. I mean, like I said, it just speaks to South by Southwest, still pulling in. Very interesting, creative, influential people, right? Still, still hasn't 100%.

It feels more relevant. Maybe this is just through my own personal biased experience or lens. But it does feel more culturally relevant than it has in the past.

At least with respect to film, for example, like the Sundance Film Festival, that was always like the big thing,

and I don't know if that feels like it's maybe on the way in a little bit. And the film side of South by Southwest feels definitely more important than it has in the past. Got right. Yeah, just, I don't know, it's cool. And then Austin's great.

You're just in this place where you're riding bikes around, everything's five minutes away. Yeah. And there's just so much going on. You can't even begin to tap into, you know, 2% of what's happening during that festival. Because there's so much going on.

“I mean, you were on that stage with Ed, like when you do those bigger events, those bigger venues, do you get nervous?”

I always get nervous. What, how do you hung yourself down? You know, deep breaths. You know, it's sort, but it's, it's not a bad, bad, bad nerves. It's, it's excitement because I wanted to go well.

Right. I want to make sure that I'm delivering for the audience, and then I'm serving, you know, the person I'm speaking to and respecting them by being prepared and all that kind of stuff. Is he touring the record around? So the album comes out in May, I think, so it's not coming out yet. But that conversation, then, like coincided with the release of a Rolling Stone article on Ed, that announced also that radio head is going to be touring again.

Yeah. And you were saying to me, like, that people don't realize that Ed is foundational to the sound itself. Like, like, kind of like John Fuscianti, without him that chili peppers wouldn't have become what they became. Like, like, like, the, like, all their best stuff came after that. Yeah.

When you listen to his solo album, you really understand his contribution to radio head. Like, he's the guy who's creating the entire kind of, like, sonic vibe of the band's sound. Like, he's, he's the sound designer behind the scenes.

And he's somebody who has always been comfortable, kind of receded into the background.

And if you watch concert footage or, or see performances of them, you know, he'll be, like, leaning down, like, turning knobs and, like, you know, playing with wires and stuff like that. But less comfortable being forward facing. And this second solo album is the first time he's actually attached his name to his album. Like, his first solo album was just EOB, like he didn't even put his whole name to it. So he's sort of coming out and standing on his own two feet and, like, owning his talent and his relationship to music and it's kind of beautiful to watch.

Because in radio head, and he said this many times, like his job is to, like, serve the band and to, like, support Tom York's, you know, beautiful lyricism and that extraordinary voice. And it's scary to step outside of that and say, well, this is me, you know, outside of radio head.

“And I don't think any of us could imagine, like, can you imagine being in a band that is that huge?”

But because he is sort of somebody who has always been more in the background, he can still enjoy anonymity. Like, we were walking around South by Southwest. And yes, some people recognize him, but a lot of people don't. And I'm like, that dude's in radio head. You know, it's, you don't even know. Right, well, especially in this era where we all have different famous people anyway, like nobody has the same famous people. But I will take what pick one bone with you in saying radio heads the most iconic band of our lifetime, I disagree.

Well, you're wearing a Nirvana t-shirt. Yeah, I think I'm on it. Is it really a debate? Is there really a debate? I mean, not to me, like to me, I think the greatest rock star since this, you know, in the modern, in the modern day since since the 60s, 70s.

It depends upon your metrics because it was such a short lived band.

You know, and radio head has this greater canon of work, and they're still going, you know, they're still doing stuff. Yeah, no, you, yeah. But if you're, if you're our age, I mean, it's like, I love it.

“It's like, you're wearing an iconic, like, Gen X t-shirt, right?”

Like, you're just, you're reping Gen X, you know? And I'm a proud member of Gen X, like, I'm dealing with Nirvana. I know, I know, I know, I know. And similarly, I'm wearing a mic D-t-shirt. You are.

You are. And in reason I'm wearing this, and this relates to music, I guess we can kind of segue. Yeah. Is mic D from the Beastie Boys proud citizen of Malibu. I sort of an icon of Malibu?

I never even knew he lived here.

Oh, you did it? Well, I don't know anything. Dude, he's the man about town. Isn't it? Yeah.

All right. Surfer lifestyle icon, like he moved to Malibu, and he's really all about healthy lifestyle. When did he move here? Not long ago. Oh, forever ago.

Oh, forever. He's lived here forever. Yeah, yeah. But hasn't put out new music in a very long time. Really?

And he has an album coming out soon, Mike D5D. And he did a live performance in Malibu last Thursday. Where? Trank us. On PCH, there's a surf shop called Brothers Marshall.

Okay.

“You know where the general hardware store is, like, right by Los Flores?”

Yes. They took over that whole parking lot. And he performed kind of like an unpublicized.

If you live in Malibu, you know kind of thing, like all point-dem showed up for this.

Okay. That was all the way over there. But it was down it. Yeah. Like Brothers Marshall was sort of behind it.

And the city of Malibu, like, you know, permitted this whole thing to happen. And it was super cool. Like it was a community of that, like Malibu was there. Rick Rubin was there. Yeah.

You know, it was, it was like a whole thing. Yeah. But it was super cool. But Rick Rubin didn't. Rick Rubin do check your head.

And I think you're right. We might have to check the internet for which records he produced. Was it check your head? The second and third. The Paul's boutique.

I think. Did he do Paul's boutique? Did he not? I'm not sure about check the internet. Somebody can look.

Someone can look and double check. Yeah. Rick Rubin was there.

“And the opening act was a band called very nice person.”

Okay. A very nice person. Look this up to very nice people, very nice person. Which is Mike D's son's band. Okay.

Skyler and Davis. All right. And it's a cool band. They performed itself by Southwest. Right on.

They're young kids. But they're kind of coming up. And then they played with Mike D also. Got that. Which was really cool.

I thought playing with his kids. And just to see Mike D like. Like he was. Mike D is a very quiet kind of introverted person. Like he's the Buddhist.

It wasn't like. Yeah. Yeah. He did a record. He did a Kirtan record.

Many years ago with bogamundas. Okay. He was the guy who married you. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. With bogamundas. With bogamundas. With bogamundas.

With bogamundas. But Mike D. I don't know him well. But I've met him a bunch of times. He's a very quiet, like introverted person.

Okay. But then you see him on stage. Doing his thing. And you're like this guy is a natural born performer. Yeah.

And he's up there. And he's like doing the thing that he was born to do. And everyone was so happy to see him do it. That's awesome. And he's got these new songs.

And I don't know. It was super cool. So I'm rocking. I'm rocking the merch. That's awesome.

From that experience. Like D.

You know, when I was a million years ago when I was going door to door to people's houses

to get them to care about the ancient forests and try to save the ancient forests. The ancient forests. I was Laurel Canyon was like prime territory because liberals and they had money. And I went up there and I knocked on the door and I'm like right out of college. And there's a beautiful woman sitting on like in the kitchen.

You can see all the way through the house. And there's two two women are looking at I'm like, hey, because I'm like, you know, hey, come on. I got a side my petition. Give money. And it turned out.

It was Ioni sky. And then all of a sudden, Adam Horowitz comes out and sees me there. And there's like a production trucks out front. It's like this whole weird thing going on. And I'm just trying to get in there and get.

And he comes and he takes me. He moves me away. Like he puts his hand on my feet. He moves me out of like view of his home. And he's like, what's going on here?

I'm like, oh, we're just doing this thing then. And he gave a hundred bucks. He said, go get out of here. He gives me a hundred bucks and he goes away. And then as I'm coming back down later, doing all the territory.

One of the production guys comes up and says, hey, man. You know, we're doing a party here tonight. It's going to be kind of a music video party thing.

You guys record whatever you're welcome to come by. Bring some friends come over and come to the party. But I was still afraid of Adam that I just want to go. Dude, how could you not go? I don't know.

I don't know why.

But you never friend to like talk friend to me.

And you friend of mine in the group was like, dude, we got to go. You have to take me there. I can't go with Adam. You go. Just tell him it was you.

You could have gone. Yeah, you blew that one. I blew it. Yeah. I blew it.

What is your relationship to music these days? My Spotify age is 110. Is that good? No, I listen to. I'll tell you what I listen to.

I listen to on the weekends. That's KXLU 89.9. It's a college radio station from Loyola Marymount here in town. And on the weekends, they play old salsa. And it's been running for 50 plus years.

It's the best Latin music show in the world.

“If you like bad bunny, this is the shit you should be listening to.”

It's unbelievable. And so if you're not familiar with it, but you like the beat. This is the place to go.

So it's 89.9 all day long.

So I do that. And then I do Henry Rollins show every week. He's KCRW. You can get both these extreme. Anywhere in the world.

And so I do that. And KCRW is like a pod. You can list it anytime. All middle baro. You have to be streaming while it's going on.

And then otherwise, it's kind of like Spotify. And whatever I hear from these other places I save on shizam. I shizam a lot of stuff. The only new band. I know we were talking about sport.

The only new bands is where I'm kind of like a little lost. Sometimes Henry Rollins will put some bands on. Great Australian band called TV Colors. That's new that I'm into geese. Is really cool.

I got that from I think from tiny desk. And then wet leg. I like wet leg. But like my new stuff is like occasionally new stuff gets in there. But I'm a lot of times listening to old music.

Old jazz. It's also a little rocking. Yeah. Yeah. I'm obsessed with geese.

I love geese. And Cameron Winters, burgeoning solo career. Unbelievable. That guy is off the charts. Yeah.

Talented. I can't stop listening to him. I know he's been sort of likened to his generation's Bob Dylan. That's right. Time will tell.

But, you know, he's so young. And the fact that he's playing solo concerts. A Carnegie Hall. And then touring with the hottest rock band. You know, right now.

It's pretty cool to see what he's doing. Yeah. I didn't realize that he was soloing at Carnegie Hall. Yeah. And like Paul Thomas Anderson is was there's like videos of Paul Thomas Anderson filming him on stage.

When he was at Carnegie Hall. Yeah. Like this guy is like. And who is he touring with? Cameron Winter.

Yeah. He's the lead singer and key. No, I know. Who are they touring with right now? Oh, I don't know.

I don't know. Who's their opening at? Yeah. I mean, they just played Coachella the other day. But they're not the biggest band.

You said the biggest band. They're like, well, they're not the biggest band in the world. They're the band that's getting the most energy right now. In terms of like new bands that are coming up. They're not that new.

They've been around for a while. To me, they sound super young. I know. To me, they sound a lot like the strokes to be honest with you.

“Like they're my mean, I think they're they're really iterating on that.”

Like they're doing a lot of really interesting new stuff. Okay. And it's just cool to see. Yeah, it's cool. Because there was a period of time where I thought like is rock and is rock over.

Like we've done with it. And then, you know, sure enough, like a band like geese comes along. Yeah. And you realize others more to say here. Yeah.

And that's why I say like bad bunny. Like all this. It all comes from musicianship. And you can tell with Cameron Winter. You can tell with yeast.

The musicianship is just top notch. And so like to me, like it all starts there. So that's why I like the old stuff. Because that's when musicianship really mattered more. And so the more we get, I think the more things advanced technologically.

I used to really like EDM when it was like more underground and stuff. And now I don't really listen to it ever. And so maybe I'm just this guy that doesn't like things once they get popular. It's very possible. That's true.

I am that. Yeah. But I like the grit. I like it to come from the earth. You know what I mean?

Like I like it. I mean rock and roll. What's cool about it is it's a mix of the two. Like you're saying with radio head kind of creating that mood with electronic enhancement. Yeah.

That's cool.

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This episode is sponsored by Rivian.

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Most vehicles make you choose between rugged and refined. Rivian gives you both so you can adventure without compromise. At Coachella right now, radio head has this underground bunker. Really? Yeah.

And it's like going down into, I didn't see this personally. I've just watched videos online. You're going into some kind of fallout shelter underground. Did you see Tenet, the movie Tenet? Yes.

So you know, at the end when they're kind of, they're doing the reverse picture movement or whatever, and they have to go underground to the place to get the whatever. Yeah. It's kind of like that. You go in this tunnel and you go underground, and it is this massive art installation.

“Which I think is really cool, this merging of music and art,”

because there's so much interesting art associated, like iconography associated with radio head. And at the same time, we have gorillas speaking of like sort of semi-edium, right? That is having this kind of retrospective moment right now. They were on Saturday night. Right, okay.

They had this installation in downtown Los Angeles and the arts district called House of Kong. Did you know about this? No, I didn't know about this. Similarly, this was like a temporary museum piece where you would go in to this seemingly dilapidated building from the outside called House of Kong. And inside aligning all the walls, like you kind of walk through this experience of the band with all of the iconography, like all of the character drawings starting from the first iterations of them and how it evolved over time.

And this, so it's this merging of visual art with music that is really cool. Well, I mean, that goes back to Burning Man, right? I mean, Burning Man and then wasn't Coachella kind of iterating on Burning Man and making it a more commercial like mainstream music experience with art.

It always had in some art installation.

Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, Coachella always had that.

“I remember when Coachella, I don't know how much it cost to go to Coachella these days, but like early days was like a hundred bucks and you can get one day pass a lot now.”

Yeah, now you need a certain number of Instagram followers that even be able to buy a ticket, I guess. Are you going? No, I've never gone. You've never gone. The boys have gone many times.

How do these go on? Yeah. It's a bit much for me, honestly. But I like watching, I like watching videos of it. I could tell a derelict Coachella story right now, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, no. Sure. But I would say this.

Yeah.

And I realize like, I need to break out of this.

Like, it's just becoming like too repetitive. And I need to like, in the same way I'm exploring a different relationship with the podcast. Like, I want to explore a different relationship with music. And one thing you'll discover like zoom is too young. You're at the age where you're trying to impress upon him, your musical taste.

Yeah.

“But when they become teenagers, they come into the music selection in the car, right?”

Yeah. And then you have this opportunity to start to listen to what they like. And so I've been leaning into that. And what you realize is like, oh, your kids are the portal to like what's actually happened. It's cool and like what they're interested in.

Yeah. And I've really expanded my like kind of musical interest as a result of that. And when I go into the gym on those early mornings, sometimes I'm preparing for a podcast and so I'll watch videos on the TV of, you know, some person who I'm going to be speaking to later that day.

But if I don't have that, I've been more and more just exploring music. And like, oh, jiolexus bam. Like, let's see what's on YouTube with this manner. Like watching, you know, live geese concerts or tiny desk concerts or

Galacton KXP has a series of amazing like music live performances.

I check them out. Which is really cool. I love that. I love that. And then my guy, Jack Koen, who hosts this show called Trackstar in New York City,

he has videos of like life performances in his studio. And I've just, it's open my world to all this cool bands like geese and Cameron Winter are just one like turn style like this super cool band. And that I'm gotten really into. That is kind of punk kind of rock and roll.

They're, they just had a huge show, Coachella too. And I think they're just so exciting and so energetic. And what I love about turn style is in this age in which artists,

“creative people, musicians are being fed this story that the only way to be successful”

is to be just constantly releasing stuff like putting music out like every week, a new song and you can watch video and new that's a new tick talk. These are guys, this band went in the other direction. And whatever money they made from their life performances or whatever, you know, their music, they reinvested in the band and they have made these extraordinary like

music video documentaries that are executed at just the highest level. Like their art pieces in and in themselves that have just put them at a different kind of tier of craftsmanship. And their life performances are just, you know, so energetic. And I just think it's really turned style.

They're like taking this punk rock genre and then they're adding this high level of like visual art, this visual art like aspect to it. Cool. It's super interesting. And then in terms of like other bands that I've gotten into, have you heard of Engine De Poitrine?

No. So this is this Kibba Qual, like French Canadian band. Yep. It's just two people. And they dress up in these, I don't even know what you would call these costumes,

but you don't see their faces. Like they're wearing these elaborate costumes and it's just instrumental. And it's the most interesting musicianship that I've heard in a long time. So they're having like this moment right now where they're breaking through. That's really cool.

Cool. A great city. So yeah, and wet leg. I love wet leg. I love wet leg.

There's a lot of bands. I've noticed also like in this Engine De Poitrine vein where they're, they're obscuring themselves. So they're anonymous. You don't know who these people are. They're singer.

Which maybe was started with with gorillas. Yeah, right like being anonymous and creating characters. Yeah. Or marshmallow. I guess now.

Yeah. There's another band called Karong Ben. Yeah, I love Karong. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm super in Karong. They've been around a while. Yeah, but like I'm discovering this. So there you go. So there you go.

So zoom out. No, zoom out. But you was very intentional. We already listened. He already dictates the playlist, but it's cool stuff right now.

“But I think to your point is like he's going to, he's going to start hearing stuff.”

We have no idea about it. Yeah. It's going to bring it to you. And that's cool. So it's been fun.

What about this new band, major? Big fan. Big fan. Well, this is the most happening band. You have the most happening band.

Uh, major is my wife Julie Piaz band.

She just put out her first song.

Yeah. Music video this past week. If you follow me on social media, you've, uh, even enjoyed that. Yeah.

And it's been great to see her step into this.

“Really authentic, uh, creative expression.”

Yeah. And she's so happy doing it. You know, like, this is what she should have been doing a long time ago. And she's rock. Yeah.

She's just great. Yeah. She rocks. Like owning it. You know, it's a, it's like, cool.

Patty Smith, Cheryl Crow. Julie Piaz. You know, it's a nice name. When you wrote that beautiful bio for her. Yeah.

Yeah. But I mean, it's all real. It's true. And then to have your, you know, you guys, your family involved. It's amazing.

Her sons and super cool. Yeah. Super cool. And she said, uh, something the other day that's so true. Like, so we went and saw Mike D.

And he's playing with his two boys. Right. And then you have, um, Jeff Tweedy,

“who's like touring with his kids right now.”

Yeah. Julie's playing with her boys. Yeah. It's a thing. It is a thing.

Musicians playing with their kids. Yeah. It's cool. That's how it goes, man. Um, I showed you how old rock and roll is.

I know. But it's exciting to see, you know, Julie flourishing creatively. And the kind of happiness that, that, and the sense of satisfaction that comes with feeling like you're fully expressing yourself authentically. Yeah.

And then also just the idea of music. You know, it's like, it's interesting. Like, I've been learning guitar last few years and just like, but like, I, I did like, I was a choir boy. I sang.

I sang. Probably up to like to college with the bells. I didn't do the bells. No, I didn't do the bells. But like, but then having music not really be my expression after that,

became more writing and then finding it again. There's something about like the music itself, just having the music in you and around you and you're making it. It's like, it's just like, it's just up lift your energy. I think.

Unless you're like doing it out of pathos. If you're doing it just purely out of love, which is easy when you're new. Um, and, and she's made it new again, essentially.

You know, like, and her whole story of amazing, like, that her brother is a serious

vision or uncle is a serious media vision, right? Like, so she's got it in the blood. Yeah. Yeah. What have you been watching?

Okay. So media diet, media diet. Most recent thing I watched all the way through is something called The Dark Wizard, which is an HBO documentary series. It's coming on online on Tuesday.

So by the time this airs, it'll be out. Um, it's all about Dean Potter. The great climber, free soloist, base jumper, wing suit, um, pilot. And it's his whole story.

So Dean was one of the, you know, one of the, after the stone monkeys, one of the, like, the punk rock guy that came in and just blew up the Yosemite Valley. And right away, it was like free soloing stuff. Nobody would even think of doing.

And he was before Alex, it was Dean. But what you don't realize is that Dean was six six. I never knew that. Six six. So there's advantages to being tall on a face, I guess.

But like, there's also serious disadvantages. It's kind of like a small person's game. You know, this kind of, it's like gymnastics. So like, there's a scene of him at that, like, soloing a route on the top of El Cap that route that Alex has to wedges

body in and kind of shimmy up that crack. He's six six doing that. Well, like, I mean, he's wedged and you can see the pain. And so, you know, it's a very, this guy is a beautiful soul

and artistic vision, a really amazing person.

His journals that he has, they have access to his journals. So his journals are just incredible. And so you get a sense of his psychology and and kind of, he's one of those guys that had mood swings. And so he was depressed a lot.

But he also was a, was a groundbreaking athlete. So it's amazing to watch. I think it's four episodes. Yeah, four episodes, each one's about an hour. And you go deep into it.

And of course, it's a tragic end. He died when he was 43 in a wing suit based jump accident in Yosemite Valley. You know, when it was outlaw sport, he's like one of the great outlaw athletes.

“And Alex is cast as the antagonist, which is, I think,”

refreshing for Alex also, but also kind of cool. How is he the antagonist? So basically, when Dean is the, he's the king of the valley. He's the band, right? And then Alex shows up and he's a teenager living out of his van.

And he just starts free soloing stuff that Dean, he's heard Dean wants to do and he does it before. And so then, and then the cutaway conversations with Alex,

you get a sense of the killer instinct that created this amazing athlete

that is, Alexander. You get a sense of it. You don't really understand why he's that way. Like, was there something that he show up? Was he treated obnoxiously by the cool crowd?

Is it not? But one thing that comes across is like Dean is climbing from a lot of pathos, even in his early climbs when he's just this amazing route. He's up there like, you know,

howling like a monkey and making it very, very much.

There's pathos, there's passion and love too. But there's also this other stuff.

“And just being around Alex and watching him climb”

and seeing it at the end of of free solo, he climbs from a place of joy. He just loves it. So even though he's the engineer, he's not the artist. Like, like Dean is the artist.

Dean is like the, he has this amazing artistic vision.

Alex is more the kind of engineering guy that sees how to do something and then goes out and does it. But it's interesting to watch them both climb and see the difference. You know, it's funny that you think of the engineer guys

that guy climbing from love and this guy climbing from pain. But it does seem that way. And of course, the dark, you know, Dean at the end, you know, he has this relationship with Ravens comes into play.

There's just like an incredible, it's just an incredible film. And he's just one of those iconic athletes that was gone too soon. Four parts series.

Four parts series. And he died in a wing suit. He died in a wing suit based jump with his friend, um,

Graham, I forget his, I'm speak spacing out of the column, Graham bow. So it's Dean and Graham bow. Who died?

They both are going for this notch from a place called Taft. Uh, Taft peak. I think it is.

“Or Taft exits and exit off Taft mountain”

and you have 70 and they're going for this notch. Um, and Graham had done it before. Dean had not. There's a competitive aspect of Dean that comes into play.

And he's, it's there with Alex. And Alex does outdo them. You know, Alex is the new athlete on the block. That does take his place. And I think towards the end,

he was the boss of the wing suit guys. Like he, he revitalized base jumping in Yosemite, Dean did. And he had a whole crew. My, a guy that I'm,

I'm writing about named Jeff Shapiro was on the inner circle with Dean at the last couple years of his life. And this is an amazing, elite group of phenomenal climbers

and phenomenal, phenomenal base jumpers and wing suit pilots. And just, they were just raging

across the valley doing this amazing stuff.

And at first, Dean was against flying terrain. He wanted to fly long, high flights. Um, but then he gradually got as more people started doing these terrain lines, which is where you're closer to the edge

because you can feel the, the speed more. Um, but it's also much more dangerous. He started to do that. And he started to do these insane terrain flights. I mean, he was,

amazing wing, wing suit base jumper. But then Graham, a younger guy, who was his protege, started to do these incredible jumps and that that kind of perked Dean's competitive nature up again. And Jeff told me that that confirms that.

The one thing, this, this is amazing. The one thing that doesn't come across that I think they show the video, but they don't talk about it is the athleticism. At one point, Alex references kind of free basing,

which was free selling with a base rig, so that you have some safety net. They use some out of context, quote, of Alex kind of dismissing that. I'm not sure how much he really dismissed that, but they use that nice quote to make it seem that way.

But Dean, being able to fall off a face and then position your body where you're tracking away from the mountain, um, talking to Jeff, the athleticism involved with that is just next level. You see the, the footage of it.

It's incredible to see him do it,

but to actually perform that is very rare. So you were talking about it, you know, iconic athletes on the right. So you're working on this writing project, uh, interviewing lots of these, uh,

wing suit guys, right? Yeah. What have you learned? Like, what is the common, uh, you know, strain across that ecosystem of athlete

that is different from, you know, I don't know, the endurance athlete or the tennis player. Like, what's a unique about that subculture personality type that you discovered? I'm not sure I, I have figured out,

figured that out yet. It's a good question. Um, I hope next time when we're actually talking about a book that's out, I'll have that down. But like, what do you feel, you're still, you know,

I'm still very much in the reporting phase. What I will say is there's something about being close to death like that

“that makes you appreciate life, I think.”

And some, you know, talking to Jeff, I can tell you from Jeff's perspective. It, it, it being close to that. It does bring into focus these moments that we talked about before and how rare and precious they are.

And that's Jeff though. He's a thinking man. You know, some of them are just chasing the, chasing the fun, you know, there's definitely people who are just like,

this is fucking awesome. I'm going to rage, you know, like that kind of adrenaline rush. But then there's others that are a little bit of a mix. I think Dean was an artist. You know, there's an amazing, um,

shot in this thing where he is doing a slack line. He's also one of the early slackliners. And so he was, he remembered the solo to slack line in front of the rising full moon in Yosemite Valley, cathedral peak.

He's strung the slack line between the two kind of peaks

And, and he's, he's doing it.

“And Mikey Schaffer, who was part of the crew”

and type at Taipei. He shot it for Dean. Hmm. It's one of the most beautiful things you'll ever see in your life. This video footage.

It's just incredible to see the silhouette of Dean in front of this massive moon.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So that's what I've been watching. Yeah.

That's the main thing. That's cool. Check that out. Yeah. On the subject of like athlete, nonfiction streaming content.

Yes. Yes. I did watch the Mariah Wilson documentary on Netflix. Okay. That story is one we've covered here on Roland.

Yeah. The story of the gravel racer. Mariah Wilson, who was very much on the come up and was going to be, you know, like this, just, you know, phenom and that sport. Being murdered and cold blood by the girlfriend of Colin Strickland.

Yes, woman Kristen Armstrong. It's an insane story.

“It's like kind of perfect for Netflix because it's like true crime, you know?”

Yeah. I wouldn't call it a cinematic masterpiece. But if you're interested in that story in that world, I think it's worth watching. But I took away from it was A, just the, the pre-meditation of Kristen Armstrong,

going into this murder like they track like all of her movements in the car and all the sort of stuff like it's really bone-chilling. And then second to that and perhaps more importantly, the impact that it is, that it is had not just on like Mariah's loved ones and family, but also on Colin Strickland, like this guy is,

will never be the same. You know, of course see him interviewed after, in the aftermath of it. And, you know, he will carry that to his grave. You know, it's, it's, how could you shed that? Yeah.

Other than that, what have I seen? That's, Ben, good. Well, I saw my boy Dan McPherson's new movie Beast. Okay. Which opened this weekend.

Do you know this movie? No, but I saw you post about it. So tell me about it. So, Dan McPherson is a friend of mine.

We've been friends since, like 2012.

“Ozzy, former Iron Man, Half Iron Man, endurance athlete.”

Well-known in Australia, he was the host of Dancing With The Stars. Okay. For a number of years back in the day, moved to LA to become an actor.

Things weren't going amazing.

He moved back to Australia. And he's had some success since then. He's, you know, Ben and lots of stuff. He was in foundation. Okay.

HBO. Yeah. So, if I show he was on a TV show called Strike Back. He did a couple movies in supporting roles with Russell Crow. But Beast, he's the lead.

And he plays a mixed martial artist. Okay. An MMA fighter. Yeah. And he kills it.

And Russell Crow plays a supporting role to Dan. Was there a bad idea? Was there a bad idea? Yeah. And Russell was a co-writer on this movie.

And I think a producer as well. And it's released by Lions Gate. And it's, you know, in movie theaters. But now it's just like a very cool moment for him. For somebody who's been in his game for so long to finally be, you know, in a leading man role.

So super fun. Congrats. He came over to the house this morning. It worked out. So it was great to see him and celebrate that.

That is amazing. So I enjoyed that. He did a great job. And, you know, I know him as a guy used to ride bikes with and talk about triathlon. And then when he got this strikeback show, he bolted up because he was playing like a special forces guy.

Right. So he got all like super jacked and bulky. But then he had to learn how to become a martial artist. And he spent three years studying jujitsu and moitai and all this thing. So that he could, you know, kind of really quit himself well in this movie.

And by all accounts, he has done an amazing job because all of these people in the fighting community are like that is the most realistic portrayal of our sport that I've seen on screen.

So it's pretty cool. I mean, like people like Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. Yes. The experts.

The martial arts experts. The best of the best of the. Yeah. You know, what? Did you?

I did. So when I covered Thailand for a little bit. Yeah. I was living in Puket for periods of time. And so whenever I was there, I'd go there was a moitai gym there.

And I would do it. But they kept trying to get me to do the grappling stuff. But you know, rich, you know me. Do I look like a grappler to you? You really don't.

I don't grapple. No. I do not grapple. You grapple with your emotions and your neurosis. That's what you.

You're you're you're you're a black belt grappler. When I'm grappling, something's going wrong. I want to flow. That's what I want to be. But isn't that what a moitai fighter does?

Like at at the highest level, you're in you're flowing.

The highest level grappling is flowing.

That's the thing. That's what I haven't figured out. Floating is grappling is flowing. Now we're in a we're like in a. We're in a vortex going to nowhere.

Let's go to the moon. Yeah. Let's go to the moon.

“So what do you have to say about Artemis Adam?”

I loved it. You know, we made it a family moment to watch the launch. We watched the launch. We watched the splash down. I didn't.

I wasn't fully. Listening to everything, but there's a great podcast. I was tuning into 13 minutes presents the BBC podcast. That was a cool little. It's a talkie show with with a British astronaut and then some science journalist.

And they talked about everything.

And so they kind of brought more perspective on a daily basis.

What was happening? I mean, I just think it's a I think like the main takeaways for me are like. I am a lunatic. Many I love the moon. Right.

The language of of these things lunatics sphere of influence. Is that the origin? Yes. It's at the etymology of the word lunatics. Yes.

People who love the moon. Is it that they love the moon or is it that like the full moon? It's like yeah. It's like yeah. Yeah.

It's like. Yeah. So lunatic sphere of influence. So at one point Artemis crew went beyond the influence of the gravitational pull of earth and into the gravitational influence of the moon. So it was under the moon's sphere of influence.

I didn't know that that was the thing. Sphere of influence. What does that mean? No. I don't understand.

It means you're under the gravitational. Yeah. I understand that. But why is that? Well, you heard of the phrase sphere of influence.

Like, you know, somebody like rich word. You're saying that is the etymology. It must come from the Apollo times. I'm guessing. I mean, it comes from physics.

And then free return. Another cool phrase. Because after the crew went up, they were close to earth. They approached the moon. Then they did an interesting slingshot maneuver.

A rant to get on this path to go around the far side of the moon. They're the furthest away in space of all time.

And they get the amazing eclipse shot and all of that.

And then they get on this path to where they're on the path of free return. Which meant even if they'd run out of fuel. Everything went bad. They were coming back to earth. Which is interesting to think about.

Like how physics works. Like these smart people that all the math. That's one thing that I got from that podcast. All the math, all the physics. Everything that you hear about.

What's it for? It's for this kind of stuff. You know, it makes that possible to get back on that path of free return and to get back. And so, you know, there's so many little moments of the naming of the creators. But for me, like I love the Apollo program.

I have earth rise in our dining room. You know, like I have a print of that. So I love this stuff. And yeah, it was cool moment. I did think on the way when they splashed down.

I felt for them because they splashed down. And all of a sudden they had to reboot their sat phone. Like they couldn't call anybody. Yeah. And then it took forever the Navy to do their thing.

And it's like, it's like coming off of a trans continental flight. And then being stuck on the tarmac for like an hour and a half. Yeah. There's something so relatable about the very minor challenges that they faced in the context of just the grandest, you know, like most exquisitely executed mission ever. Yeah.

“They landed in exactly where they said they would like within like within seconds of what they predicted, right?”

Right. Everything was just nailed to such a precise insane degree. But they did have like certain challenges. I thought they couldn't get out for like a year. Yeah.

They couldn't. So I saw a really funny tweet about this. Hold on. This person Leah Crane, who I don't even know. It just came up on my timeline.

She says deeply, deeply hilarious that everything on the Artemis two mission worked perfectly except outlook, a conference call and briefly the toilet. Which is just like any of my office workers, you know, experience, right? Like, oh, they have the same, their issues are the same as mine. Yeah. Yes.

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. You know, that's brilliant. But I think there's just something, you know, beyond just how extraordinary the whole thing was. And you were more locked in on it than I was.

Like I watched it, the splash down. I didn't watch the launch. And I wasn't following it that intensely. But here are a group of like middle-aged people who are just like good people who are smart, who are doing a cool thing. And there's a wholesomeness to it.

“And a hopefulness in an optimism that is like exactly the prescription we need, right?”

Yes. And like I just appreciate that. And I'm grateful for that. Like I just think it's, I think it's super cool. And the name, the name, the crater after the crew chief read, what's read the last name?

But his, and then they named it for his wife who died of cancer like a couple years before. Call me, I mean, yeah. The two things I want to say is that they risked their lives. It was a 120 chance that those heat shields wouldn't work on the way back because they were flawed heat shields. And they'd had in the test flight.

And these, these, this crew of four people still did it. Now, why would they do it? People would ask, you know, some former astronauts were saying, they shouldn't have done it. And then NASA was, was being unnecessarily risky.

But, you know, one thing I will say from interviewing these, these wing suit base jumpers.

“And then I think I just got pooped on by one of your birds.”

Oh, that's good. It's good luck. It's good luck. Yeah. You know, what you, what you realize is these people will go for it.

Because if, if this didn't happen now, it would happen two years from now. And these astronauts might not get the chance again. So this was their chance. And it was a one, they, they figured it out from the data. One in 20 chance.

And that was enough, that was good enough for them. And so they risked their lives, man. It was not like, I mean, it's easy to, they're back now.

And it's, it was always working.

So it seemed fine. But like, they had just, they had CO2 scrubbers that were getting, that, you know, it's like a rebreather. It's like living in a rebreather. Like these diving rebreaters, that don't have bubbles.

Where you, what you breathe out gets scrubbed and served back to you as oxygen. That's what they were breathing on. So they had backup tanks and everything. If they had to get back. But they were, they were living off these CO2 scrubbers.

And, and they were risking their ass. I mean, it's, it's very, very interesting. And it's also cool, like you're saying, in this era of the United States, where we're waging war right now and needless war that is, you know, that is causing all this kind of repercussions from.

And it seems like almost mindless the way it's been executed. And, and lacking in humility and, and thoughtfulness. You know, if you're going to go to war, I would wish you were humble. And thoughtful about how you're going to execute it versus rash. And maybe stupid.

And now this is the other thing that the United States is executing. This amazing thoughtful, perilous experience. So the deepest we've ever done. So it shows you the capability of this country in both ways. And it's kind of like encouraging, but also makes you kind of feel like,

wow, we're, we're very, very schizophrenic like all countries are. Yeah, the polarity, like the extreme polarity of, like, what's happening politically and, you know, globally in terms of global conflict and, like, this war that we're in and all the insanity that's happening right now. And then this, this just incredibly uplifting thing at the same time.

Yeah, like, it's a weird schizophrenic situation. Like, it's a yes and kind of deal, like us. But here's really tied together. There's, like, this dominance, this, this, this lust for dominance that is at the,

the core of our culture that has always existed in the United States.

“And, and I think Trump is part of that and all of this is part of that.”

But also, like, NASA's part of that. Like, Artemis is goal is to get close to the moon. So we can build a base on the fucking moon. I mean, it's crazy. Like, it's, I don't want to base on the moon.

Do you want to base on the moon? I'm into space exploration and, you know, ultimately long term, like, expanding the horizon for our species. But I'm not into just replicating the mistakes that we're making here elsewhere. You know what I mean?

So if you watch that TV show, like, for all mankind, it really explores that idea. What was the, um, that beautiful Brad Pitt movie? That's about his relationship with his father where he got it. No, no, no, no, no.

Add Astra. I just rewatched Add Astra, like a month ago. And it's the same thing they go to the moon. And the moon is just fast food restaurants. And like, you know, it's just, we just export, like, our culture.

Like, you think it's going to be different. And the same, you know, turf wars and territorialism. And we're just replicating our mistakes, right? So, right. Exactly.

This is the point you're making. It's the point I'm making. And, like, by the way, not for nothing using a rich phrase. The moon doesn't influence our tides, which is, like, the ocean and the weather and everything. It's like, let's be careful with the fucking moon.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's part of this biological system. So let's have humility. You know, it does take balls.

So you, it's not like humility is always the best play.

It does take incredible guts and strength and focus. And I appreciate those things too.

“But like, I think to be really strong, you have to have humility.”

Like, I think often force is mistake is mistaken for strength. And strength is something totally different than that. It includes humility. And so, you know, that's my only concern. My only note for NASA is like, make sure we're humble about this.

But that's not NASA's, uh, remit.

And like, their remit is to do the exploration. I know, I know.

“Like, you know, the rest of it is up to, you know, us and the government, I suppose, right?”

But we haven't answered the most important question.

The whole purpose of this Artemis-2 mission, which was to put the test to the flat earthers. Have we put the nail in the coffin of the flat earth movement with this? Well, you know, somewhere there's a flat earth movement. What is the flat earth or argument now? I'll tell you.

Somewhere there's a flat earth or the same as being like, I can't believe Richard M. Or fallen for this Artemis bullshit. Like, that didn't happen. So it just didn't happen. So basically, it's just a production.

It's saying like, this was another Stanley Kubrick. Ask like, you know, Hollywood production. And none of this happened. Do you know where Stanley Kubrick was? Did they have the launch?

Is he still alive? Maybe he directed it.

He directed it from beyond.

Are we there? Is this where we're at? I don't know. I don't know. Let's end on a hopeful note, Adam.

All right. Ending on a hopeful note. Yeah. Splash us down. Okay.

With our damaged heat shields. Take the damage.

“Well, I think, you know, the takeaway from Artemis from the astronauts perspective that I've seen is the same as the takeaway of almost every, you know, experience from all the astronauts.”

It's that when they're up there, they fall in love with the beauty of the earth and everybody on earth. And so, you know, you see when you're out in the vacuum in the void, you see what we have. So clearly, and it's so beautiful. You know, it stands out so incredibly. And so, I mean, I think that's where I'm at.

It's like, let's enjoy the beauty of what we have because even though some terrible things are happening, terrible things have always happened, like we've said.

And so, I think that's the takeaway for me. It's the same thing. I said at the beginning of this episode, which is I try to focus on the moments of beauty because they're sublime. It's not just the one beautiful thing that doesn't matter. It's like everything.

And so, the more deep we can be in those moments of, you know, Nirvana. And Artemis was a moment of Nirvana for all of us together that we can share in. Then all the better. So, you know, thank you to NASA and everyone for doing that. Because it's beautiful.

Artemis, too, was a one-up or two. Alex Honel's Type A 101 climb. They really won up to them. They really did. They really did.

But it is the consistent refrain of every astronaut who has had that experience when they come back. And they're like, when you have that perspective of the earth from such a distance, you realize, oh, it's a spaceship. We're all on it together. It's so small. We have more in common than, you know, that much more in common than our difference is. And they repeat that.

And we understand that intellectually. But there's something so experiential about that. Like, because it's so moving for them, like it changes them. And I wish we could be changed just by hearing them reflect that back to us. Yeah.

Like, we get it. Right. But we don't get it like they get it. No. And if we did, maybe we would be better at resolving those differences and avoiding going into poorly conceived, global conflicts,

and, you know, killing each other unnecessarily. Well, you're bringing this down again. I'm going to bring this back up, which is that there are moments like that. The life is for the, for the person to experience our life is to be experienced. To the tie, the wingsuit, to Alex, to this, to the astronauts, to everything we're talking about to you.

So we were talking at the top of self-improvement. Life isn't an, is an, a sport, it's an active sport, right? It's a sport for the, for the people in the game. And so that's, I think that's the takeaways. You can find those moments of connectivity.

They're available to you here on Earth all the time. You have to seek them out, though. They're not going to necessarily bite you. Maybe a few times in your lifetime, something will smash you on the head, some realization. But you can decide that I'm going to go sit by the sea, walk along the river, walk, walk through the farmland.

You could find a way to connect with the beauty of the Earth every day of your life. I encourage it. I think there's nothing more empowering than just sitting down and watching the world go by sometimes.

“You know, like, that's what I think is the most important thing.”

And, and I wish more people would do that. And not just the world, not just like in a cafe, although everything's wildlife, really. We're all wildlife. But like, if you can get out to some place where their nature is really showing itself, you can have those moments yourself. I love it.

You did it. You splashed a stand. Did I put it down? More evidence of Adam Skolnick ascending. I think we did it, man.

Thanks for doing this, Brad. I love this. This is cool. It's out here. It's amazing.

I felt more present with you. It's one, yeah. Yeah.

Thanks everybody for tuning in. See you. Till next time, peace.