#299 Andy Lowery - Inside the World’s Most Advanced Drone Killing Machine

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on your credit score. Results may vary, see Chime.com for details and applicable terms. Andy Lowry, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, good to see you in person, Sean.

“I've been trying to get you guys on here for two or three years now. Oh, is that right?”

Yeah, and so got a couple of mutual friends, Joe Lawnsdale, and Grant for standing, and Grant actually put you in Epirus on my radar, and I don't even know if I'm so say this, but I saw this cell phone video that was taken at the, I think, a long time ago, and it was like very, very beginning stages of Epirus. All right. And then the video, you just see, it looked like a uh, these, these drones were tethered to like a dog chain or to the ground or something.

Yeah. And you see these, I think it's two or three drones fly up, and then they just all three of them fall down. Right. And everybody starts cheering. But you don't see like, why they fell down or anything, but I knew what it was. I was like, holy shit, that looks like a EMP weapon to, like, I was in the very beginning stages. I don't know how far back that video was, but in the early days, I've been told, and this

was even before I had joined the small team of innovators that they first want about doing it. They were rigging open microwave oven doors and stuff, trying to keep them up and then say, well, this is if we just stick a drone, five feet from the microwave oven, then we get,

I mean, real startup stuff. You know, I'm never using a microwave again if that's the truth.

But yeah, so, so we've been in touch with, with your team and, uh, it's, you know, it's been like two

especially right now with all the, with everything that's just going on pretty much everywhere in the world and drones are top of mind for pretty much everybody. So absolutely. But I'd like to start you off with an introduction here. Andy Lowry, CEO of Epirus, a venture back to

American Defense Tech company valued it over $1 billion. Under your leadership, Epirus deployed

two combatant commands, $100 million plus in US government contracts and became the leader and counter-electronics technology. Leonidas, the flagship product, a world-leading counter-drone solution using high-power microwave energy to neutralize drones and electronic threats. 30 plus year career leading advanced technology organizations across defense and commercial sectors, including Raytheon and M.A. Combs, retired US Navy surface warfare officer,

served abroad, the USS John C. Stennis leading nuclear engineering teams and demanding

maritime and combat environments. Former business area chief engineer, Raytheon, leading radar

and electronic warfare programs including the next generation jammer on the E.A. 18 Growler. Founding CEO of Realware, one of the fastest growing industrial AR companies in the US hold a degree in electrical engineering from University of Illinois, currently studying

“integral, noetic sciences. What is that? How did you pick that one out?”

I have. Well, I tell you, there's this emerging kind of seam with technology, ethics, consciousness, especially as AI and things become more and more widely adopted, and so I've taken on, I'm a consummate self-educator and educator. It's like what spurs me on is to learn and to seek new knowledge, and so I decided to, in my off-time, the weekends and stuff, take some college courses and pursue a PhD in something called "noetic sciences," which is kind of this crossover between

some of the more soft touch, you know, kind of spiritual and religion and consciousness and things

like that with the technology and how does technology basically impact those other fields. So not

“something that normally you think to go together right away, but that's what I think makes it so”

cool and why I'm very into. That sounds fascinating. Yes, we'd like to talk about that at the end. Sure. Husband, father of two servant leader, philosopher, and champion of American manufacturing and life-saving technology. Quite the resume. Yeah, well, that's definitely me. It's somebody that wrote it was very favorable to me. I don't know if I would have been quite as bullish with my right up. But so a couple things here before we get going, everybody gets a gift. Right. All right, thank you.

The joints lead gummy bears made the USA up in Michigan, legal in all 50 states, not that you have to worry about that in California. But there it is. All right, thank you. And oh, I'll follow suit. Oh, man. There's yours. That's a momento. We did a 49 drone shoot down and sort of our inaugural shoot down of a swarm, big swarm, 49 systems. And we made little baseball cards that has a piece of those drones that got knocked down. And then we've only made a limited quantity

of that and and Sean, you get number 49 there. So that is awesome. So this is these are little pieces of the drone. You guys shot down the drones, right? That got shot down, correct. 49 drones, 49 and one shot. Yeah, and one shot. Wow. This is awesome. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Perfect. So Andy, I want to before we get into all things, Epirus and directed MP weapons. How did you, how do you get into this? But you are new.

Yeah, in the Navy. I was correct. Correct. That's right. So I started nuclear power. I started enlisted. I enlisted in 1991. I got inspired by the lava monster Marine Corps commercial.

“I don't know if you've ever seen that one. But it was, I think to this day, the greatest recruiting”

video that ever was made by anyone. And I was sitting in the basement of my girlfriend, who's now my wife of 35 years. But at the time, my girlfriend and not doing much work and at a TGI Friday,

turns around and snaps it up to shoulder. It turns into Marine Corps saber, Marine Corps uniform.

And I went, I'm going to be a Marine. I don't know what they do. I don't know how they actually, what they operate on what they do. But if something like that lava monster, it's, I've got to go do this. And so I went down to the Marine Corps recruiting station the next day. And they had the door closed. And a lot of people know everywhere you see a Marine Corps station. You see a Navy right next door. And so the Navy was open and I looked in and they said,

"Oh, come on in." I said, "Oh, sir, I'm looking for Marines." And he goes, "Well, you know, the Navy owns the Marine Corps." And I went, "Oh, no kidding." And he's like, "Come on in. I'll tell you about it." And the rest is history. I ended up going Navy Nuke versus Marine Corps. And my

“Marine Corps friends at this day say, "You made a big mistake that day. You should have stuck with”

the Marine Corps." So much for the lava commercial. Yeah, the lava commercial did it though. But got me into the Navy. And it was probably a better fit for me anyways, because I'm a strong engineer, strong in mathematics and physics. And I did real well. And the Navy is smart. They take the best enlisted guys and say, "Hey, these ought to be officers." And they put me through a program called enlisted commissioning program. And I went to University of Illinois in the mid-90s and I studied

RF, microwaves, antennas, all of these things. But then I went back into the Navy and served

another five or six years of active duty as an officer. Never got to use much microwaves in the

nuclear power plants. You know, it didn't really apply. So I wanted to get into that, right? When I stopped being active duty, I transitioned to reserves in 2002. I went, let me find a company

“where I can work on microwaves. That's where I did in my college. And let's revisit that. I ended”

up at Macom. And Macom is an RF microwave component company that makes the pieces. And I worked there very successfully for about five years. And then that followed with my Raytheon chief engineer position. And then after that, which I really got involved in electronic warfare and microwaves. And electromagnetic energy systems. Wow. What was Raytheon doing? Well, Raytheon does everything. They're a prime. And this was back when Raytheon had a pretty dog-on good reputation.

It was under Bill Swanson, was the CEO and then Tom Kennedy took over after him at a portion or down the line. But with Bill Swanson, he and I worked together on Next Generation Jammer,

which was a big new age-electron of warfare program that basically took older technology,

transmit wave tubes and vacuum tubes and that sort of thing. We can get all what this stuff means later, I guess. But use this old technology and then upgrade it to a phased array, an antenna, a very sophisticated antenna. That was powered by something called gallium nitride that I've heard on your show you guys talking a little bit about putting like a finger in the pond as far as talking about gallium nitride. It's this really remarkable semi-conductor, like silicon. silicon is a

semi-conductor. It's a remarkable semi-conductor that can amplify signals and withstand huge huge power densities way, way, way better than traditional semi-conductors or things that we've used before in the past. And that is really what's unlocked kind of a new class of directed energy, a new class of electronic warfare, a new class of a whole bunch of different systems that leverage that kind of technology, the gallium nitride technology. And that's really where I found my niche

is being sort of an expert in systems that leverage gallium nitride in various ways. What year was this with Raytheon? I worked in Raytheon. I started in 2007, 2008, and I worked at Raytheon through

“2014 about the end of 2014 is when I transitioned into startups. What were you working on jamming?”

What specifically? So there's something called the next generation jammer. It's just, it looks like a fuel pod. It goes on the wings of a version of the F-18 version of the Hornet called the Growler, the EA-18 Growler. It flies on the wings and it just jams everything. It has a huge frequency bandwidth that it can move around in and it can jam anything. It can do all kinds of sophisticated jamming like state-of-the-art. And when you hear a lot about these

operations that we've been doing lately, you hear a lot about like, "Oh, the lights all went out, everything just radars didn't work or whatever. The air defense has got crippled." And I think President Trump said something about a discombobulator. It's one of the things that I think he's got in a mind about discombobulation. It is kind of that. It discombobulate circuits. It,

Like, or confuse a radar, or confuse an operator of a radar amongst other things.

“Cellular stations, different electrical base stations, and things like that. What about humans?”

I mean, the discombobulator that we've all heard about. Everybody was, yeah, that's a fetal position on the ground. Yeah, well that's completely different. So it's hard because microwaves are invisible. It's hard to kind of see the differences. And so when you're looking at attacking electronics, most electronics use pulses. They use pulses to do like a radar. We'll send out a pulse and then it returns a pulse. So you're using a system that leverages a lot of

pulse power. And that means your peak power is very high. Your average power in comparisons very low. Whereas a microwave oven or something that is tuned towards like biological things has a very high average power. Your peak an average power are equal because you're trying to get a very, very high continuous power or beam on like a human being or on a on a chicken and a microwave or something that you're trying to heat up. And so you design the microwave system very differently.

You choose different frequencies. You operate it much, much differently. And then if you do it on the safe side, which some companies have done, they do it up like W band, which is a way high frequency that, you know, you hear about the skin and stuff getting kind of like needles and stuff and feeling like, well, that's just kind of heating the skin. It's localized heating the skin. And so that can deter crowds and keep crowds at bay. And then there's been rumors of other things out there,

like a bono effect and stuff like that. But really I have, I don't have any knowledge of any of that. Like I don't know that those things are real. If they are really real or they're not, I don't, I'm not aware. Got you. Got you. So how did you get into Epirus? Well, a lot of the folks at Rathion is kind of almost in some ways has spent out Nathan Mintz worked for me at Rathion. He was a founding CEO. He had Beaumar. Dr. Mar came out of Georgia Tech, worked in my

organization for whole number of years. Me and Beaugot real close at Rathion. And then when the team had built the company to a certain sort of stage, we had gotten through most of the initial technology discovery to see if it actually would work. And we were starting to look at product market fit and then eventually scaling the company, they called me and asked. They said, hey, what are you doing? You want to join the company? And I told them just as long as I'm not the CEO, I'll join.

And they said, okay, and they made me the chief product officer and I was really happy in that role. I was doing great stuff. And then down the line, it just one thing led to another and I ended up

“in the position of CEO a couple years later. So I think Bea was happy and Nathan is real happy”

that eventually made that decision together with board obviously to offer me the position.

But I came in, this is my third CEO job and it's not an easy job for those out there that have

done it. It's very lonely and high pressure and you've got a lot of pressure, both directions and tough. So I needed a break and I came in and I was able to do what I love to do is build stuff and do the engineering and help sort of advance the design that the previous team had done. So when you look at the designs, we are now releasing and going into production today. Those were designs that when I was the chief product officer, me and the team just redid completely. We've redone the

entire work that we had done in previous generations of the system. And call this system, Leonidas Generation 2, that's a second sort of major, major upgrade that we did in order to improve things like range and a lot of the survivability type requirements. Okay, okay. I'm excited to introduce to you the newest member of my family. We call them Stanley. We got Stanley this past Christmas and pretty quickly my focus became making sure he was safe while still giving

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“When did Ray the our ops? Excuse me. When did ever a start? When was it founded?”

It founded in 2018, right before COVID. And most of the work that they did to get the system proving that it would be viable was done during the COVID period, actually. They brought people in, you know, and we were safe about it, but you know, they had to work kind of hand in hand, and it was a real discovery phase, those first two or three years. And then I joined in 2021, right when we started to get into product market fit and doing our first demos for the army.

Army Ricto was a name of organization, which is now called PA Fires. We had done some tests with Army Ricto and some other companies in order to see what type of system would be. At least worth the army taking a look at to see if it had a viability for some of their missions.

And that all started in about 2021. Wow. It was at always counter-drone initiatives.

We brought up, yeah, we brought up with the idea with counter-drone, but we really didn't set out to build a directed energy machine. What we set out to build was a really, really high-powered RF transmitter, something that could put in all kinds of electromagnetic interference, or if you wanted to make it a transmitter for a radar, it could be a transmitter for a radar, then you could have a receiver sitting next to it that it could send the signals out and the receiver could take

those signals back in and you could use it as a radar. We had ideas for that. We had ideas for other counter-outboard motors, for example, on engines, on boats. You see a lot of the unmanned boats now getting out there with these engines in the back. Well, it has the same effects on those commercial type systems as it does on drones. It basically looks for anything that has a computer board. And it uses a very high electromagnetic interference field to couple voltages onto the computer

board so the computer board just basically ceases to function. It goes, we used to call this the blue screen a death when it was Microsoft causing it on our computers and we would have to unplug the computer completely and plug it back in, give it a real big reboot cycle. This is very similar to the type of effect that Leonidas and this type of directed energy has on computer systems. Okay, okay. So it developed, so it basically developed into counter-drunk technology. It develops

it's just a sector. Well, it was always there. I mean, the founders like Joe and Grant

“that you've had on a couple times, I think, Joe now, it's like they had the vision. I mean,”

and this is something that Grant and Joe and even at that time there was John Tenant, Alex Moore, who still sits on our board. All of those guys were involved in the very onset of the company. They were all founders. It was basically financial founders in a way. But the type that dig in and actually help with the engineering and with the thought process and from a big picture, they kind of saw it. I mean, Joe to his credit and Grant too, they saw this coming. They saw

this drone explosion, if you will, before it really was anything. And in fact, they anticipated

It's almost unbelievably, because of just the ease at which that could be done. But thankfully, through maybe our protections and intelligence and things like that, we haven't really had any issues to deal with on U.S. soil. But now we see it. We saw it in Ukraine and now we're seeing it play out in a huge way in our presence in the Gulf region now. And so drones are here to stay, and they are very, very troublesome things. Wow, they had that kind of insight back in 2018.

“I know. To me, it's amazing. To me, it's a whole different kind of visionary. Like, I think of”

myself as a visionary, but more like pragmatic visionary, if you will. Like, what's the next stage? What's the next step? How do we make a better generation, a longer range system? Visionaries like Joe and the board and the Grant and Grant and ATVC and Redsell and stuff. They have this, they're tapped into like 100 different people. And in that sort of network, they juxtapose, I think, all of that information and all those inputs. And they come out with these enormously creative

ideas that are brilliant. And they knew Bomar, they knew Nathan Mints from their history together, and went to them and said, Hey, we're thinking about something along these lines. Do you think we should take a risk and put the money, put the capital to work? And at the time, the military had not thought of this as a good approach. They thought the approach might not be successful. So

“Joe set out and Grant set out to prove them all wrong. And I think today we're sitting in a”

pretty good position. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I think the evidence is kind of self-apparent,

we've proven them all wrong. Wow. Wow. What so was Leonidas the first? Was that the first product?

Well, Leonidas is a scalable product. So it has these little elements that can be much bigger. We can make much bigger antennas and have much more range where we have smaller ones. And so the class of product we call Leonidas was the first thing that they started working on. And the first one is actually a bunch of huge antennas. It had like only nine or ten elements and had these huge antennas. It looks like I don't know if you've ever seen the pictures of like the first

meta glasses or Apple, you know, does the augmented reality stuff? They just look like Frankenstein. They're not compact. They're not down in the right form factor. They don't have all the performance

“figured out yet. That's what the team built in that COVID period. They built their very,”

very first prototype of the Leonidas. And they weren't entirely sure how it would even be incorporated or what what what what service would want to go after it and all of that. And it was a big risk. It really was. But the foresight that Grant and Joe had was pretty remarkable. Really remarkable. How many products are there? Well, classes of products. We have we have platforms. And right now we have the platform called Leonidas. Now when I say that people focus on the directed energy

machine, but it's really a whole series of different things. We have to have first of all layers.

You never are going to get a panacea against this kind of threat. You're not going to get

one system that works in all situations counter-drawn. You're always going to have various layers and various technologies. And we can get into the details of what those are and why some technologies work really, really well in some applications. And then other technologies work really, really well in other applications. And so when we started to take a look at what other products we need in order to finish sort of the system, the system of systems. So that we're not just saying,

hey, we have this great effector, but it has to plug in or we have to leverage what you have and what you you're using already inside your country. We knew kind of at the beginning or when I started as a cheap product officer that we would need sort of a standalone version where we could have radar, electro-optical telescopes, all of that stuff and our own commanded control software to kind of tie it all together. So we built that and then we built basically where we can take

the head off and plug into systems like Androles lattice. And so, you know, we're working with Androles pretty tightly in order to ensure that as they release lattice for their various customers that are starting to pick up, that our system is well controlled by that software. So it basically became a situation where we needed other products in order to complete the product that we had. And so by that need, we went out and either source through third parties

or developed ourselves, the whole sensing suite, commanded control suite, simulator. We have

this really incredible. It's built by guys that used to work at the Call of Duty for on the Call

of Duty program and Blizzard. And we've got about 12 or so desires which at Raytheon, you know, no one ever hires desires at Raytheon hardly. It's like something unique. Well, they don't have a

mix, if you will, you say, well, why is Silicon Valley sort of better in some way? I lean into

the design lead thinking and design lead thinking is human factors, human thinking from the very

“beginning. That's what it means at its core. In a Raytheon, you're a services contractor. You have”

the military that decides what they want you to build. They put them all down in like a thousand requirements. They hand you a bunch of requirements and you just build a system that meets the requirements. You get paid and then you move on to the next system. There's no real design process there. It's like baked into the system engineering. It's baked into the way that operational commands give feedback to procurement commands and to requirement commands. And all of that is a very

bureaucratic process. You get good products out of it, you get expensive products out of it,

you get exquisite products out of it. But what we're seeing now is a whole new chapter. It's the stuff that's built at the big primes are not sufficient for this new fight. And before anybody gets angry with that and why I say that, it's a give you an analogy. For the last decades, the primes have been focused on let's say going out and hunting a lion or lions, like big, big beasts, you know, they have to bring in the big nets, the big guns, the big whatever that they need to

go hunt lions. The problem we see today are like mice and little mice that are running around and what we're doing with our big rockets and our big defensive systems are using the same thing we would go up against lions against mice. And it's really that fundamental. It's that can you now develop mice like apparatus's, rathion quickly and short order like they're doing in Ukraine or you not rigged to do it or you're not set up to do that. And not that they can't change and not that they

can't like bolt on companies like Epirus and let them operate sort of independently and still bring in the human factors and the design led stuff. But I mean, you're talking about

“shooting a $2 million missile to get us $2,500 drone. Right. That's what you're talking about.”

Yes, it's not sustainable. It's just not even like appropriate. It's like, would you ever take a huge gun or a huge, I don't know what you want to do if you don't say gun like net or what, some cage, would you have a cage for a lion with a bars as far apart, your stuff and mice in it and they're just running through the bars of the cage. You know, it's like it just isn't the right stuff for this particular fight. And the right stuff needs to be here yesterday.

It needs to be here yesterday. And why do you think the big, I mean, why aren't the big primes doing this? Did they just get cocky? Do they think they don't need to innovate? What is going on? I mean, I love, I love sin. I mean, I've interviewed a whole ton of these of companies like Epirus that are coming up, shield AI, and role like a bunch of these. And the

“innovation that's coming out of these companies is just amazing. I don't know what's coming”

out of the other companies I saw. I saw some of the stuff that Lockheed came out with that event DC that I met you at. But the younger, leaner, more innovative companies just seem to be outperforming the big five to defense tech firms. Am I wrong on that or? No, you're not wrong, but I wouldn't blame them. Pauler says this very eloquently. I've heard him speak on this topic a couple times. Palmer Lucky and he would say they're not incentivized to be fast and creative and

move very quickly. They're not incentivized to risk spend $200 million developing a new system

that they might have a customer for, but they're not quite sure that they're going to have a customer for. They're incentivized to listen very, very well to the customer being the military and go off like a services company like when you go to a law firm and you say, hey, law firm, I need you to help me with this dog bite case that I'm in the middle of here or whatever, and that law firm then pivots and says, okay, we're going to work on that. That's not how the new

Neal primes work. They don't work like a law firm. They don't work like the primes. They go out, they survey the land, they see the problems, they talk with the generals, they talk with the various folks that are out the field, and then they guess at what a product that they could invent that they have in their head might work to solve this problem or that problem. Some of them are winners, some of them will win, some of them will lose, just like in consumer products where you have a consumer

product company that just doesn't make it, but others that do, you're going to have winners and losers. And that's where the big risk comes into play. But if you're willing to take that risk, then you get

hand, you know, hand you this, hand you that, step-wise, one, two, three, four, five, six,

never really do anything unless the government says, here's a check, here's how you get paid. And so

they're incentivized to just wait for the requirements, wait for the direction on what they should

“build, and then they go build it. So like a law firm, just like it. It's that's what primes are today.”

So are they useful? Yes. Will they build the big exquisite machine still into the future? I'm a very robust, well-exercised process. Yes, I still think there's a big place for them in the future world. But will they be the ones that can make the mice traps and all the things that need to come out like in a month to month to month type iterative cycle and risk a lot of money up in the front end of the thing to make it all work? They just they're not really set up to do that. And the only

way that I could see them becoming more like that is if they were to take a risk and like, let's say buy Empress and then like let us operate exactly like we've been operating under our investors and our board that we're under now, just operate the same, but be under their umbrella, so to speak, or their brand, but still operate the way that we've been operating. I could see that being one way. Is that starting to happen? I've seen it in bits. Like Lockheed, you mentioned, I know they have

a big fund that basically funds different small companies that they find having a lot of potential.

“I'm not sure how many of those are transitioning yet to acquisition, but I think that's the intent”

is to basically get involved by finding ones that have a real win and then transitioning them into a growth phase. Because as you start to scale and you're talking about field service operators, out in the field, you're talking about people all over the world that are being a support maintaining these systems, logistics for these systems, all the mill PF type stuff that people talk a lot about. All of that, the primes do well. They're well situated, they're well staffed,

have people all over the world. Would you need a scale in mass? It's nice to partner with primes because they have mass. For example, General Dynamics Land Systems is a major, major partner to us.

And I had really never had a partnership quite as close as we are with GD. And GD ends up being

“that sort of big brother to say, "Hey, do you have people in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the”

Middle East and other places?" Because we do. We have loads of people over there and we can help you scale when it comes time to scale versus trying to build everything from, like, new, like everything new and everything fresh. Leverage what they're good at, scaling, mass production, field support, all of those types of elements. And then keep the innovation and keep the stuff that these neoprimes are doing really well, like shield AI and all the rest of them that you named and more.

There's many, many more. All of those companies are doing the innovation really, really well right now. In particular, for these types of threats. I bet it just seems, especially with the current wars that we're involved in right now, in particular, Ukraine, with all the, I bet everything just seems so cheap that they're doing over there. Yeah, cheap and innovative and quick and, you know, death by 1,000 cuts, as they say, right? And everything is very distributed. It feels

to me like, if people know in the audience about cyber and like how cyber works, right, if you look at semantic and how it defends against these little Trojan viruses that get in and try to do harm to your system, those Trojans are like 110, 150, 200 lines of code. They can be very, very small pieces of software. But semantic needs millions or billions of lines of code, right, in order to defend against these little harassing software type drones, if you will. And if you look

at the physical world now, we have that sort of like metaphor, where the layered defense that we know in cyber defense and the swarms that you see in cyber attacks, where you'll get viruses coming in this way, viruses coming in in this way, those types of attack vectors, if you will, call them attack vectors, are being used in the physical world now. So the drones are like the little Trojans that are everywhere doing mass swarms, trying to overwhelm the enemy through just

sheer quantity and mass. And then our defensive networks are becoming more and more layered and nuanced so that we have these layers of protection, because what you don't hear in the news a lot is like nine out of every ten of these drones were taken care of. It's just one or two out of ten that are

10 will get past, so they send it a thousand, maybe a hundred will get past. And so we need more layers, we need more systems like Leonidas presented in the fight so that we can take care of the

“leakers, take care of the swarms, take care of the dark drones, leakers, what are leakers?”

Leakers are what I just said. If you have a system in place like an iron dome that takes care of nine out of the tensha heads that come in and you get one that get in, that's your leaker that kind of gets through your your your your traditional network and Leonidas is good for those. It's a good last line of defense like a close-in weapon system, but with electro magnetic energy, it's a good analogy. If the listeners know about the seaways, the little R2 D2s on ships that have the

5,000 rounds a minute type of ability to just do that close-in protection. What we're doing

with Leonidas at EPRIS is creating basically a close-in weapon system but using electro magnetic

bullets versus physical bullets to kind of provide that last line of defense. And one it can provide a very nice last line of defense against leakers. We talked about those. Really nice line of defense against swarms. Like the gift I gave it was a 49 shoot down, but that doesn't mean we can't shoot down 500 or 1000 or more. And then it gives you a really nice defense against fiber optic fiber optic drones that you've seen these in the Ukraine now these guys are about the drones

that tethered. Tethered. Yeah, we call them dark drones because it could be fiber optic in the future it could be autonomous drones that just don't use any sort of RF or any sort of global positioning or any of that in order to see where it's at and to navigate autonomous drones will be like fiber without the line, without the tethered fishing line that goes behind it. But those types of drones are just as susceptible against our effects as a regular remote control drone. So it doesn't

really jam it like it's like an EMP like you said at the very beginning it's like a electric small little electromagnetic pulses that we're putting out exactly directed where we want to direct them.

“Wow. Let's dive into let's dive into Leonidas. What what what are all of its capabilities?”

What does it do? Where's it deployed? So just to start really simple and then we'll double-click

down in a simple way it's sort of like the first version that the human race of a force field

that anyone's ever created. If listeners are seeding Star Trek and Star Wars they'll put these fields up and those fields obviously in the movies are like against physical objects that like bounce off of them like a wall or whatever. Our system isn't quite to that level of sophistication yet but as far as a version one of a force field that is a close-in protective field that sends out these very, very, very high, high powered electromagnetic interference waves that when the

drone, if you imagine here's the here's the field that we're putting out there. As the drone gets into this electromagnetic interference field it might stutter the camera might stop working then it gets deeper and deeper closer and closer into the intensity of the electromagnetic interference and eventually the computer just can't operate. It just does not operate under that strong of a field surrounding the computer board and the computer goes dead or one of the

servos locks up or whatever. So this is a bubble. It's like a bubble exactly. You could put a bubble around a embassy, you could build a bubble around a white house, you could put a bubble around

“you know anything. Anything that you can think of really we've got a country. What's that?”

A country. A country. Well, that would take a lot of money and a lot of systems but you could theoretically do that if you wanted to like make something huge building size you could go out miles with a system like this. Like if you wanted to let's say protect the streets of Taiwan and you wanted to build an enormous building size version of Leonidas. You saw the one out there earlier that one was like 10 foot by 10 foot. Imagine a hundred feet by a hundred feet or a

bigger shit. Okay. There's different places of power project then and start thinking about huge things to defend against these types of drones with system that big. Can they interconnect? Yes, they're communicating. Meaning when I'm talking about I mean you know what comes to my mind is the is the iron dome of our visceral. Correct. How is that built? Is that is that a bunch of systems all linked together for one big dome or is that one massive device? It it it I think in essence

it basically gives you a theoretical in our minds dome but how it actually operates is much more

down the traditional utaloups where you have you know detect your like scanning basically

to that type of threat. We know that it can take out of it and then it takes out of it. So it's

“really the I think the coordination that makes iron dome so successful. It's a very close-knit”

coordinated system that works really really well. In fact I met not too long ago and Singapore one of the original engineers that designed the has credit to designing that iron dome and they have other versions with directed energy now and other things but nothing like Leonidas. We've been talking to Israel and we've been talking to others about something like Leonidas they're very interested they want to work with us you know because of all the issues that are now plaguing

Israel. You see it on the news every night you'll see if you see something get hidden Israel that's a leaker or it's a dark drone or it was a swarm that just overwhelmed their defenses as they're now rigged. Sleep it affects everything when it's off you feel it focus drops recovery

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“Hi, I'm Sarah Adams, the host of vigilance elites The Watch floor. When we highlight what matters,”

it became a permissive state. Explain to you why it matters and then aim to leave you feeling better and form than you were before you hit play. Terrace, hostile intelligence agencies. Organize crime, not everything is urgent but this show will focus on what is need to know, not just what isn't nice to know. So I've seen grand actually sent me some videos of capabilities and or maybe I found those. I might have found them on your website but the way it appeared to me

is it's 49 drones, 49 individual shots that all happen simultaneously. Is that my off on this? Yeah, if you could even think about using augmented reality glasses to show what's going on and tie that into the computer that's doing the commands and stuff so you could see what's happening. What happened in that 49 drone video, if the viewers like really frame by frame, take a look at it,

we do three major spots so but it all happens in less than a second. So we hit the one group

that sits there, the second group there and then the third group there and we do that within like a half a second. We go one, two, three. So we're steering the beam kind of like an laser light show, you know how they can steer it one laser and make like a whole shape. We're steering the beam so quickly that the drones that are falling prey to us think that they're all over like the beams all over but what we're really doing is very quickly on the time scale moving the beam around in

whatever pattern the drones require us to do. So we're not going to throw away energy like if there's

not a drone there we're not going to point it in that direction. We'll shape the basically force

field for whatever sort of targets that are out there in front of us. So the force field morphs into what you need it to morph. Exactly. That's a great way of putting it. Okay, shit, that's badass. Wow. It's tip of the spear attack it really is and it's why I told you at the beginning I love

we have our naysayers out there. We have the folks that say controversial. Well, what the fuck is controversial about counter-drone? I mean, no, not about that. There I don't have too many people to say, hey, let's forget about this counter-drone problem. I don't think it's going to be a problem in a couple of years. I think most people are wedded to the idea that drones are here and here to stay and there are really big problem. But there's all kinds of opinions of what

“the best way to solve the problem, right? There's all differences. They've got laser systems you have”

guys, they can, you know, gatling guns in the back of pickup trucks, you know, the bullfrog, guy at Allen control systems, building something like that. Another kind of close-in weapon system that provides with bullets anyway, sort of that last layer of attack or defense, I should say. And then you have a whole bunch of other types of systems that, again, like I said earlier, work really well in certain conditions and not as well in other conditions. So the hard, hard problem

that the army, that the Air Force that are foreign allies have right now is figuring out what to pick. You know, what to use in this layer or that layer? And that's why we've leaned into the simulation, like we've leaned into the video game, where you can play like tower defense in real life and drop in Leonidas's drop in other electronic warfare systems, drop in radar systems and say if I set up a protection scheme like this and then we partnered with another company called Gambit and Gambit's another

neoprime that basically runs scenarios. Like drones can come in and do this. They could come on high

and drop down. They could, and run 100 different scenarios and say, will this, this layer defense network or this layer defense scheme work for this particular target? That's going to be absolutely 100% required as we move further and further in the future. And lots of companies are doing it.

“I think we're doing it in a unique way right outside of Fort Syll and Lot and Oklahoma. We have a”

big experience center, experience site that soldiers and others can come into and play video game. It's like, Enders game, right? You know, it's like if you practice just like you fight and so we've created simulators and emulators that look like you're in the fight. It appears like you're doing. So when you go from Fort Syll area over into the battlefield, you're not going to see any difference. You're going to see the same sort of scenarios play out one in simulation and one in real life.

Wow. Man, I got a ton of questions I'm trying to organize. I'm just a type of order, but I mean, what is the, what is the, what's the range on something like this? Bit, you know, we, as usual, I'm going to give you probably a answer that's a function of your question. So the range is 100% dependent on the size of the system and you size the system and then

“therefore the range based upon the target that you're trying to protect. So if you're trying to protect”

a tank, you've seen maybe some videos of first person viewers with fiber optic feathers on them,

hitting an Abram's tank in the back and blowing up the tank or whatever. So you have a three, four million

dollar tank blown up by a 10,000, 20,000 dollar first person if you're, you're drone. Those types of systems are like small, right, or relatively small, like a big toolbox. You know, it's about a, because it's a, is a big toolbox. Very dense the electronics and then the range though is maybe 50 meters. But a tank's not going to need much more than about 50 meters by our calculations. And so you've got certain size ones that have ranges at that low of a, of a level.

And then you have ones that have the need to go much much bigger than that. If you're trying to defend a base or a, or an airfield or an embassy or any of those sort of things then you're going to need at least what you see in kind of a lot of other different protective systems where you're out at like, see what, see what goes out to about one and a half kilometers. If you look at the nominal range of what a close-in weapon system can defend, it's about 1.5 kilometers. So we are like

defending a ship, need about that size, it's about a building size. We need something in that range. So the big one you see out there that we kind of toured around and take a look at, that one is for the embassies, for the fixed targets, the, what the, sometimes they're called a point defense type applications. Those ones are in that kind of manifold of range. So that,

that would, that would basically defend this entire property. You could, it, since it's mobile,

absolutely, because if you could detect out at five or 10 kilometers, then you move the system both on the ground and then with the antenna to kind of protect. And so out to like a half mile mile, that type of distance, which is what about this property, would be, you would be safe. And if you

Exactly. And then that way you don't need to be more over the house or whatnot. You've got one half of

the United Sysky, one half the United Sysky, and to your question earlier, you can take the beams and steer them in the same direction, point them at the same target. And it doesn't quite double up, but it gives you about 50 or 60% more range by having two systems. So the seams, like if you had two left and right of your house right now, the seam down the middle is where people would think to go. But those are, that seam is covered as well or even better than coming right out the system.

So we try to make a very sort of robust shield, if you will, so that nothing can get through.

“And we're that final last line. What would this do to a human?”

Nothing. Like I would stand in, like I tell people, there's a famous, one of my sort of fans from

the nuclear navy was Admiral Rickover. He was like one of the greatest intrapreneurs in the world created the entire nuclear program in like four years or subs and our surface ships and all of that. And there's a famous scene where Admiral Rickover goes into Congress and drinks the effluent of the primary coolant. He drinks down a glass of it saying how safe to try to illustrate how safe. I was telling someone before we came out here, I said, I would stand in front of the main beam,

not for like an hour. But I'd stand in front of the main beam for like 15 seconds and go, "Zatme, it won't do anything. It won't, it wouldn't do a thing to me." And I'll tell you why, you go, "Well why?" I mean these microwave ovens and stuff. We happen to use frequencies that are

“so low, they're close to kind of RF. They're still microwaves, they're considered microwave,”

but they're almost in the RF or radio frequency band of waves. And those waves pass harmlessly through us. Those are the kind of radio towers and stuff like that. The very, very long wavelength, very, low frequency waves, those frequencies are not harmful to humans. They just pass right through us and pass right through biologics, not harmful to plants, not harmful to birds. We are a little bit above that, but not much. So we do have to be somewhat

safe to conscious. We have to do hero, herp, herp, these different hazardous, electro magnetic radiation. For personnel, there's these limits that are very, very tight and very tightly controlled. We have to be below those by measure, but it's not hard for us to be below them. We're well below them and you can stand very close to the machine and not have any sort of facts whatsoever. Okay, and it's not, it's not radiating any microwaves

unless it detects something correctly. So even if you do radiate, it might be 20 seconds or 10 seconds of radiation, then it's off again. The drones are down. Okay, and so when it does detect

“something, is it, if you could visualize, if you could see the beam, what would it look like?”

Would it be, would it look like a laser? Would it look like a blast wave? What would it look like? It would look like, it would not look like a laser. It would look more like a, it's about, let me think about this, how to say this right without even a way too much. It's nowhere near as thin of a beam as a layer. It's a thicker beam and if you look at it, so it would look like a spotlight. Like a, oh, that's a great analogy. It's about like a spotlight. Yeah, like a spotlight that you would

see, it would be, yes, it's absolutely dead on. That is a great way of looking at it. Like the spotlight you see in the parking lots to say, hey, come over here and they shine up in the sky and they zoom them around and make different sorts of things. That's about, in the microwave frequencies exactly what the beam would look like. How many of those beams can it? We should just, we keep it at just one because we want to eke out every bit of power we can. We don't want to

distribute the beams into a bunch of beams so then that, but we move it at, at microsecond speeds. So like, it's hard for a human even think about this, just like the lights in this room are blinking on and off right now, but we can't see them, but that's only at 60 Hertz. We're at a

much, much faster repetition rate that we're doing. So we can basically go around this whole

60 degrees by 60 degrees and fill the sky with pulsating electromagnetic interference energy and to drone anywhere in that big sort of section of the sky would fall. It's so, it's so fast. It just looks like it's happening all simultaneously. It looks like a, like a blast wave. Exactly. To the physical system, like if you were on the drone, like a little guy inside the drone driving it, you would just see no matter if you were here, here, here, you would see this electromagnetic pulsating

wave just hitting you and hitting you and hitting you and hitting you. Like, as if you took that spotlight that you made the reference to and just had a guy in a, in a, in a one second could just just run that

combination of radar and electro optical and infrared. So we have three bands of frequencies.

“We have the radar, which goes out and it's pretty high, high frequency radar because it has to”

find these little drones as far distances we can find them. So we start with like a 360 degree radar and we're searching and we're searching or we're tapped into Andrew Latis and Latis at doing the searching and then handing us, hey, we found something. We're going to assign it to you. But in the headed situation where we're doing everything, we search, we search about maybe a 10 kilometer to 20 kilometer space, we see things way out as they're coming in and then as we see them

we're starting to move or position our system to be able to take the attack but we're not firing until it gets in that kind of final sort of layer is where we fire, where we don't try to hit them way out at 10 miles or or five miles. It's in that last sort of engagement zone. So other things are handling other layers are handling the further out fight. We're sitting back just like a

“goalie in a hockey game, just pointed ready, ready, ready, ready, ready to stop, ready to stop.”

We get either the assignment or if we're a standalone, we give ourselves the assignment.

It's locked on to by our telescope basically. It's electrical and infrared telescope.

Some of the videos on the line you can see the infrared version of that telescope. So it locks onto it very tightly. We hit the trigger. It goes on for about two seconds. Every drone in the sky falls down. Damn. Very well. How big of a drone could you take out something like a predator drone? How big of a machine can you disable? The theory applies in scales to anything with electronics. However, as you get bigger and bigger drones, you're able to get bigger and bigger

weight capacities and you can do a lot of things with electromagnetic shielding. So even drones that even fly at 100,000 feet, they have cosmic radiation and electromagnetic fields that have to like be shielded against. And so, and this is actually in one side you go, oh, that shoot, you can't get those big drones. But on the other side, we're also not taking out airplanes or 747s or anything like it's super safe because of the kind of controlled short-range nature of the system. So

so it works really, really well against group one and group two. So these harassing first-person viewers, that is what it was designed for. It was a drone group one group two goalie. Stop. We have tested against some group threes. We have lots of information, commercial information around and commercial testing around bigger systems that enterprising people pick up out of the field into the Ukraine that get down and then we buy those commercially and we test our system to see the

viability. And it does seem to have good effects, at least in a chamber where we test it. We haven't flown a shahed at it or anything like that. We haven't, don't have any shahed pilots and don't have a shahed that's operational. So we rig up the systems that we have and we're able to gain access to and we test in the chamber how our system would affect the system out in the field. And we have kind of math equations that are really accurate, like within five percent,

if we can down the drone inside our ver chamber at such a distance or a calculated distance, then it equates to that same distance out in the field. So we do believe they will be effective against group threes. It is effective against group threes, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it again.

I just caution everyone to say, nothing is a panacea. There's always need for layers. There's always

“need for more than just one set of stopping things. You have to have other different types of”

systems in order to be safe in order to be safe and get everything. I mean, if this is successful as you think it's going to be, or then it is, this would, I mean, this would make drone warfare obsolete. It's at some point in time, probably in the near future, corrects. If we, if we do what I hope we're able to do, it will change the face of drone warfare completely. Now, I'm not saying it will obsolete it because this is a

chess game or cat and mouse game, you know, where, you know, they build a bigger mouse trap and they figure out a better mouse and you just back and forth, back and forth. Any, if you ask anyone who's an expert on electronic warfare, that is all of electronic warfare, like next generation jammer, we might be jamming something at 150 miles, and then all of a sudden they change

the physical construction of the radar and it can't jam it, but 75 miles out. So you're always playing

that said, this is a game changer. It is a game changer. It's going to force our adversaries back

into more, back into normal lanes, where they're not tacking data centers and civilian type

“targets and all of that. We'll be able to build enough of, I think, of a robust network with our”

system and others that are merging onto the market that will cripple the ability for bad actors to be able to use drones. It will really cripple them. And so what about nukes? A lot of big talk right now, Iran, Russia, China, been going on forever. What, you know, did a lot of fear about nuclear war, though, there has been, for what, probably since, I don't know, 20, probably since the Ukraine War kicked off, which was what, 22, maybe. But I mean, could they be repurposed or, is the technology

there to develop the baseline technology there to develop an, an iron dome that would defend against,

you know, but this, I would say that the, the best use for the, the golden dome iron dome or gold dome as president Trump and, and, and the team has been calling it. The golden dome, those are, are, are a whole bunch of different, very important systems like that systems,

“patriot missile systems and a network that networks all of that together in this much larger”

air picture. Now, now, now, now, I'll say that and those systems have been shown to be vulnerable against mice, you know. The, the nukes are the lions, the, the nuclear ballistic missiles are lions and in fact, you know, a lot of the ballistic missiles are what exactly what they say,

they go way up and out or space and then they calculate exactly where they need to drop their

little bombs and they got like a bunch of them inside a warhead and then they just drop these things. These, they're, they're ballistic, they're not electronically steering, they're not doing they're using all this really high math to figure out, okay, if we drop it right here at this time in this direction and launch it there, it'll fall to the earth and hit or explode in the atmosphere just depending on the type of nukes. So, they're tough. It's tough. It's a tough problem to stop

ballistics and you really want to get at it as close to the launches you can, like, you know, you want to be able to like have your target hit their rocket before their rocket even gets a chance to ballisticly drop those missiles and stuff like that. So it's a little bit different equation and I, but I'm not, you know, like, I'll ask Joe and he'll have five ideas about how it could help in any case. I can't visualize how it would help in that mission right now but where I

can visualize it will help it will protect the protector. So as we set up pads and we set up these different bases, we should have our systems and other systems like ours protecting those type of things from Jersey drone types. You know, like if you have a Chinese boat with a bunch of containers off the shore, send it in a swarm of drones like the Ukraine's did in Operation Spiderman. You have that last lane of a defense so that your big missiles and your big sort of defensive type systems

aren't being taken out. Okay. Wow, man. Warfare is changing. Totally so much. It is really changing. Yeah. I was yesterday. I was at war. That I wouldn't even recognize it today. Oh, it's the same. I was telling someone when I was in the Navy, you know, when I'd go out overseas, you know, I'd bring war fighters like you over there, but I was just driving the airport, you know, running the nuclear plants underneath and when my wife would say, "Are you going to be

heard? You're going to be injured?" I said, "No, we're sitting on an airport, you know, way out in the water. There's no way anything's getting to us. You know, inland those are the guys having all the risk. You can't say that anymore. Yeah. Everything's a target now. Now, ships have pretty good close-in defensive networks like the seawasers we were talking about earlier and all that, but it's not improbable or even un sort of imaginable for a carrier or something like that

to become susceptible to a drone attack. It just is a new way of warfare. So where will these where will these be utilized? I mean, I know you guys have some that are already out in the field, but I mean, are these going to be on every naval vessel, every overseas, far base, every embassy, over the White House? I mean, I mean, it's, it's everything, I mean, you mentioned everything

“from tanks to entire bases. Yeah, I think there is a potentiality for these types of systems”

and as they evolve and to more and more and better better capabilities for them to become almost as ubiquitous as radars. I mean, when we built radars back in the 40s and 50s, we had, I mean,

going to come and go. But, you know, now radars are everywhere. They're like everywhere. Everybody has a radar. I mean, I had a radar on my little, my little, I had a ranger tug for a while in the Columbia River. I had a radar on my ranger tug. You know, so you can get radars just become commodity.

“I think this type of technology very may well be a commodity type technology that if we continue”

to live in a world where bad actors are using these toys and these mice as we call them to kind of get out of the lane, you know, get out of the normal lanes of warfare to try to use these things to create terror type stuff. Even if the war ends in two or three weeks, that doesn't end, right? We don't end the hoothies, you know, hurting people in the red sea and trying to mess up her shipping lane. She doesn't end people trying to throw drones into American

bases and such over in that region, um, other bad actors. I think even if we pull out the big guns and we go back or whatever in a few weeks from now, there's going to be at least many, many years sort of tailed of this that drones and this mice warfare is going to be really prevalent I think in that region, especially in that region. How much will something like, I mean, you know,

“at the beginning earlier we said, I had said, you know, a $2 million muscle to take out a $500”

drone. I mean, what, what are these costs? What are they? What is each shot costs? I mean, it's just energy. So I don't know what that equates to. Yeah, we have and this is something that is very relevant and we're doing right now with with the Department of War. We're showing them, basically, each in every sort of perturbation, what you just asked. So a system just to stand alone system, the big ones, like the ones you see out there, they can go for depending on how you outfit them,

what kind of sensors you're using, they can go from anywhere from the mid-teens to, you know,

upwards to $20 million or more if you want all the bells and whistles and stuff. So they're not

cheap. They're not cheap to buy the system. But then every drone they're on after is pennies. It's literally pennies. The fuel that it takes us to take down an individual drone costs just a few cents, five, 10, 20 cents, something like that. If you combine those two, then it becomes an equation of how many drones are you taking out in a given month and a given year utilizing that system. And if you take out, let's say, 50 drones in a month, it becomes dollars. Even, you know,

you're like hundreds of dollars per drone versus, and that's counting all that, you know, between 10 and 20 million dollars of costs and all of that, all of that all in, you're still down at hundreds of dollars per shot once you start to have utilization of the system. So there's two ways that someone would decide to use their system. One, it would be a lot cheaper than going the missile routes because if I'm using it all the time, it's going to get a lot of utility,

and that's going to drive my price per shot way, way, way down. So then that big sort of bill up front is much much littler. Or what was it going to say? So either one that you're going to drive that cost per shot down, or two, you're going to understand that that target that you're defending,

even if it doesn't get like a million drones a day or whatever, if that target even has a chance

of being attacked by drones, it's so valuable, you don't even want the chance to happen. So I think those are going to be the two really sort of robust applications we get at right away, where either one, they're going to protect something extremely important and vital to be protected at all costs, or two, it'll be a very high up tempo of many, many drones flying in per day,

“and then that'll drive the cost way down. If you want to stick a big expensive thing like this”

in some port and Louisiana, or something like that on the goal, it'll probably be overkill at this point. At least at this point, until we start driving costs down, as we start to scale, we start to get into production, then they become more and more ubiquitous. But first movers and first users will probably be very high value targets at this point. Okay, I mean, I'm just curious, how small do you think you can make this thing? Well, I know it's probably not a high priority

right now, but I'm just wondering, you know, we see, I just had this Ukrainian drone operator actually

show up here and he hunted me down on the property. And it just, I've never been involved in

drone warfare, it was not a thing during my time other than predators, you know, and other problem, but not FPV drones running me down. And so throughout that exercise, it just, it got my mind jogging. Would you be able to, would this be a squad defense weapon potentially for a team of special

production with it, but we have several prototypes of something about the size of the toolbox,

ways about 40 pounds. So it's not light and it's not super light, but you could get a soldier to carry it or you could get, you know, a couple of people to move it around with the squad.

“The range is limited. That's the issue. Like if you want to have something, the size of a toolbox”

and go, you know, 50, 100, 200 meters or something like that, that's right now with where the technology is, that's really not possible. Other than if you had a whole bunch of those boxes and you were pointing them all at the same thing, then you could start getting sort of into those type of ranges. But that's been a real hard one. I mean, you've seen out on the news, maybe these drone guns that folks have. I don't know if you've seen them, those are electronic warfare,

those are jammers, they're trying to use jamming to kind of like if the bad actor isn't sophisticated or if it's a hobbyist or whatever, the drone guns work pretty good. We're looking at if we could design something like a drone gun, like a drone bazooka maybe, it would be more like where we could

have an individual basically hit something at 50 meters or 100 meters that just is in close and

“sight. I think it's possible. Okay. I think the first step and we're working alongside Andrew on a”

bunch of things. But one of the things we've looked at is, and I saw her Joe talk about this is their roadrunner vehicle. That does the vertical land sort of like Elon's rockets or whatever. It's really, really cool system. And it has a small little payload section that if Palmer can get his roadrunner in 6-8 feet, 9-10 yards, something like that between three to 10 yards from a target, then we can eat peanut, we can, you know, electro magnetic pulse it falls, move on to the next one,

move on to the next one. There's an application for that kind of a potential so that you could have maybe a drone you could launch and with a squad and go up and project that range that way,

if you can't tolerate the little or range that you're going to get on a smaller system.

We're right now in process of taking our electronics and making a much smaller, much denser

“to make the power density go way up. And the primary driver that is vehicle protection.”

So we've kind of been working our way down. We've gone from kind of the larger fixed and semi-fix site type protection with the bigger system and we have a medium system that the Marines want to use for some of their platoons and sort of like a expeditionary units and things like that that have drone problems, but they could bring them with them on a JLTV or some other vehicle that they have in their arsenal. That's the medium size and then the small sizes for individual vehicle

protections like the tanks like we were talking about earlier. We haven't quite kicked off yet an individual soldier protection although we're getting tons of pressure and tons of requests out of the army to do that. I mean, they really want to get it down to kind of an individual soldier level that has something other than what they have today to protect themselves. Yeah, actually, I didn't even mean for the individual soldier, but I mean, if you were to

something like the bin Laden raid, you know, where they could just, you know, roll a vehicle up, maybe it's attached to the helicopter, the lands, maybe it's on a vehicle, maybe it's maybe it's a fucking backpack that you just set right in the middle of the target and then it gives you, you don't have to worry about FPV drones, you know, coming to mess with your way or trying to pull a hostage out. Well, I even give you one better. You could take that system and

point it at the wall that you're about to bust through or the door, you're about to bust through and knock out all the computers, all the different things inside. I mean, it again works on everything. So drones, yes, but it also will work at Bin Laden sitting there on his computer network, take out his computers. Everything goes dark in his room and then boom, the explosion happens, they go in and get them. So it has a ton of applications. When we start looking at special ops and

some of the three letter agencies and stuff, it's got just a ton of adjacent applications other than just drone stop. You can stop vehicles with this thing. So imagine like a cop with a thing on its hood, like one of the medium or small size systems on the hood of a car, chasing out after someone, stopping by hitting them with electromagnetic energy, the car, engine shuts down, like calmly and easily take the guy in or someone run in a gate,

right? Trying to do a run a gate, typically some tragedies have happened that we've had to just shoot those folks that have gone off the deep end and trying to charge into a gate with a vehicle. You could create a system that stops vehicles with electromagnetic energy prior to having to do small arms fire on an individual doing that. Wow, jet skis and ports. That's another one

Just shoot it with a little electromagnetic energy. Turn off the jet ski and wow, rest of the perpetrator. Who is operating these? Is this operated by AI? Is this

“decision an individual operator? It's it's range. It's like it's I think seaways is a really good.”

I used to be a combat information center officer on the in-shan was my first ship where I got my

swoop in and stuff. It had three modes of operation. It has a man in the loop which is just manual. You have man on the loop where the system will go through and give you a recommendation and say we recommend this course of action and you say yes or say no and change and then you have fully auto just like in a seaways where you're just like oh man this is you know the world is crashing down I got thousand drones from every direction coming in and I just wouldn't even have time to just

I got to save myself and you put it in full auto when it does it. It does it all. Right on.

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“The e-range just got some defense tuck upgrades. Check it out.”

All right, so we're out here with Andy Lowery. We got the Leonitis right behind us on a truck with all kinds of woos bangs on it. What are we looking at here? Well, we debuted. This is our Leonitis AGV autonomous ground vehicle. And what we have is a full-size system. We were talking about ones that would be appropriate against maybe a base defense or something larger range. But now this is made to be mobile. Now, three companies came together to make this mobile.

One Empress. See the big antenna. Two general dynamics, land systems, and three cardiac defense. And cardiac defense provides the autonomy. So they're kind of doing the waymo of this truck. So this truck can drive with a driver or without. Just like a waymo car drive around wherever you need it, drive by wire or drive autonomously. Position the system wherever you need a position it. Like, let's say we get a detection and 10 kilometers away on your property.

Here comes some hostile drones. Think and start up, drive itself over, start clothes on those drones. Get closer and closer. Stop. Position the antenna. Take out. Wow. All in one package. You've got two radar panels on the bumper here. Echo dying radar. High frequency. Very, very much tuned to drone and drone detection. And then on the front on the top of the roof, you see two more panels. Those are echo dying radars. You have four panels that give you 360 degree situational awareness

review mirrors there. On top, you have a star link antenna. So you have a star link antenna

“and then some UHF antennas for communication. So you're getting everything sort of, this is totally”

live node, if you will, a node on the battlefield. And then the antenna itself, of course, is your electromagnetic interference field creator that's going to take and position it wherever needs a position, then form a wall or shield of energy. Wow. So this is a really big request on the army side. The army really said to me, look, it's great. We like the technology, but it needs to be mobile. It's just the way the army is going. They want everything to be maneuverable as they're

starting to defend different bases. They're realizing that mobility is like a necessity. And then

two, the army has said that when the range is limited and they can't get far enough out,

they can power project forward. They can move the mobile system out forward to the front line and then from there, another half a mile or a mile out in order to stop the drones. Right on. Wow.

“So four radars, two starling dishes, some UHF antennas on top. Yeah. And then some cameras and”

automated systems. You can see these 360 degree cameras and servos and all of that. That helps. This is like you see on a waymo car. They're just made to be militarized for this particular system. Okay. Wow. So you can imagine a guy in the passenger seat will have a laptop where he'll have full situational awareness. He might have lattice running on his laptop by Andrew inside. Have full situational awareness where everything's happening, where other factors

might be. And then when assignment comes into this particular guy comes in on to the computer. If a guy is inside, might be in a container somewhere just running everything automatically. But if there is a manual operator, he'd get all of that information inside the cab and then be able to drive this thing wherever he needs to drive to protect whatever he needs to protect. So if this is fully autonomous, and we need this thing decides it needs to be all the way over there.

It will just drive itself over there and then position the antenna and the way that it needs to be positioned to take out the threat. Absolutely. Yeah. And then talk about this, the antenna here. So the antenna itself, you can see if you measured it right now, it's about 10 foot by 8 foot. Wait, we see that square right on top of where the sticker sits. Behind that antenna are hundreds of individual elements. They look like little square silver boxes. And there's hundreds of them

back behind here. And phasing, they call it phasing all of those up. What you do is each one puts out a little bit of energy, a little bit of energy, a little bit of energy. And you take all of that energy and phase it up into one tremendously strong beam and then push that beam out into the atmosphere. And that's what causes the electromagnetic interference field or the directed energy field that causes all the problems with any sort of electronics. So it's not

easy, think about it. We are creating out of a machine made out of electronics, something that disables any electronics being able to fly or being able to operate from hundreds of meters if not kilometers away without kind of self destroying ourselves, right? And take ourselves offline. There's a tremendous amount of innovation when it comes to shielding, when it comes protecting the circuits from getting their own electromagnetic interference energy back on top of it.

“So that's why it's so state of the art and that's why I think it's so unique.”

Is that we're taking into consideration things that just really have never been done before

or even attempted before for that matter? Is this the, so would the beam be about the size of this rectangle here? Or, no, the beam would be a smaller than the rectangle because right behind the rectangular hundreds of those elements, just we pull that rectangle off, you see hundreds, the beam would come down to be about, let's say, 10 degrees or so, five to 10, between five and 10 degrees is where your beam is going to get shaped. Wow, so they all just go like this.

Yeah, they're capacitive then. If you think about it, like from the water, if you had like one wave maker in water, making waves, then you had another wave maker making waves, you try to time them up so those waves start to stack on top of each other. So like a hundred times over, though, like if you had a hundred water wave makers that are making a wave in the water, a wave in the water, and you time them such that every wave crests at the exact same point,

fell at the exact same point. You could create a huge wave if you imagine hundreds of those wave makers, you could create a huge wave out of a bunch of little waves if you just time the sequencing and the pulsing of those waves at the same time. Exactly what we do inside a microwave system,

and we're but timing those waves so each one of those peaks and each one of those valleys line up

“and then form it into a very narrow for the size of the system, narrow beam, that we then”

move the narrow beam around electronically. By again, timing those waves in sequence so that the system goes to left goes to the right, goes up, goes down. Then on top of that electronic steering, we have our mechanical steering, where we can spin the system around it, goes around about each second, it'll cover about 30 degrees of rotation. So it moves very quickly, and every time we see a drone even if we start with an electronic scan and then turn the

antenna to follow so that we get the biggest punch for the system that we can possibly get because

when you're face on like this, this is when the antenna is the most powerful. So as this moves

around, nobody's detecting it, nobody's seeing where it's at, doesn't even know that the system can shoot down drones, drones appear, we shoot them down, then we move the system away from where it just happens so it doesn't become a target because you know, sooner or later people will start saying, hey, we can't get any drones through if they've got one of these leonitis that's sitting out there, and if that happens, we're going to want to move the system, right? So it doesn't become a target.

“Gotcha. And so these radars that you have up top and these two back here, that's what picks up”

the thread and then this, you know, the bad boy right here, the leonitis was shoots it down. What is the operator seeing? So the operator sees like a God view of the landscape. So they will

have like Google Earth and see your entire landscape here and then on top of that layered on top of

that are the different drones and they get kind of all pulled into the star link, all networked in that same network, it can like see all the drones, not only the drones right over your place where our radars might be detecting it, but if there's drones in your neighbor's yard and they have a radar that's on the same network, it'll see the drones even starting from over there. So we get okay. Really big, we try to get the biggest heads up as we possibly can

to make sure that we're minimizing the need for like hundreds of these to surround your property. We want to have early detection, early observation, move the system into the optimal place to defend it, and then defend the, defend the place as the last line of defense. Is the distance that the radars can detect the drones? Is that the same distance that this is max effective range of the landitis? So when you detect a drone, can you immediately shoot it

down as basically what I'm asking? No, the detection range is longer, so you'll get detection

of the drones hopefully. I mean, sometimes you don't, if a bad actor decided to hide a drone in this weeds over here and it just popped up up, we detected it to be able to shoot it in the same distance, but in a, like let's say in a desert, you might have a lot of landscape that you can see out to. You might detect a drone at 20 kilometers. You might detect a drone at least 10 kilometers. You'll be able to detect a drone. This one will just position itself and get ready to take the

drones down when given the assignment. And then when it comes in around two kilometers or something, that's when we start engaging at about two kilometers. Shit. Damn, this is awesome. You see, we have these cables. This is where all the DC power is being fed up into the system. So you take AC power alternate current power. So you get a generator like power in your house. It's at 60 Hertz. You take that. You convert it back in the back end to DC. These DC cables

bring the DC up into the columns. And then once that DC power's in, the columns all stored up, it sends it into what we call the L-RAM. So as boxes, those L-RAMs are magical converters that

“convert that DC power into RF power, microwave power using, if you remember, I'll quiz you,”

gallium nitride. Using gallium nitride in order to do that conversion. So that's like the magic rocks, if you will, like magic, magic material that's able to take massive amounts of power and convert that power to massive, high powered microwave system or microwave energy. Wow. Let's take it. I just want to take a peek at the front. I haven't seen the front yet. On the front. Damn, that is badass. Look at that thing. Yeah. You feel protected, just see it.

Wait till it operates and people are like, what? Oh, man, I would love to see that. Yeah. I would love to see that. But we're getting close to being a lot more liberally able to shoot at the FAA is very interested in seeing these things deploy. They feel safe with this sort of system versus some of the kinetics and even the laser systems can give people worry when you're shooting them over like El Paso or whatever, like they had to shut down that airport a couple of times when they

had a laser system or whatever down there. This system wouldn't need to shut down any airports. It wouldn't have any sort of issues just operating alongside other radars and other. It's kind of like

really cool, really cool. And you're getting ready to crank out how many of these? We're trying to get

this year by the end of the year. We're trying to get one week. So 50 a year, that's taken us into next year and then after that we need to expand. We're in Southern California and we're looking at Oklahoma's where we can build volume where we can get over 100 a year. So we're looking at multi systems per week. In California we think we can manage about one week. It's great to see someone so excited about it as I am. I guess that I've been track of this thing for like two or three

years now and to have one in the backyard is pretty fucking crazy. So if you have one in your backyard yet? No, no, you have a privilege right on. You're interested in a CEO job. I am. Let's swap me out. I'll be

your CEO. Cool. All right Andy, we're back from the break. What a awesome piece of machinery you've

got out there. But I wanted to go over, I got some myths, debunking Leonidas, HPM myths. All right,

“which I think we covered some of that, but Havana syndrome. Are you familiar with Havana syndrome?”

I've heard of what it is and I've heard the theories. But again, I don't know. I don't have any inside information. I'm just a microwave engineer directed energy guy with some amount of know how and could perceive something to be at the right frequency and the right energy and all of that to hurt a human. I mean, obviously microwave ovens if you stood in a microwave oven, you wouldn't survive, you know, over a few minutes. So there are ways of directing that energy just like we

direct other energies, you know, to probably cause harm to others. Now, good news is is that I don't

need to worry about any of that, even in like a sort of a fratricid way with people. It's very safe our system. Our system, as I kind of talked about earlier, I'd stand right in front of even the main beam. Wow, for a short amount of time. It's totally safe. It's tuned in frequency and an energy. It's tuned for electronics and humans, but not only humans, birds, plants, trees, any of that in the way of the beam won't be affected at all. You won't get any damage at all, right? It types of living creatures.

“Are there any other kind of misunderstandings or myths about Leonidas that you want to address?”

It will take out the tethered drones. We covered that, correct? Yeah, it takes out tethered drones. I think some people, this is getting a little deep, but I'll kind of talk about it and then just for the listeners that maybe understand a little bit more about directed energy and in particular, high-powered microwave, there's two kind of classes I'll call them. They're what's called wide band, high-powered microwave directed

energy and narrow band, high-powered microwave. And when they say band, they're talking about the frequency. So how many frequencies does this particular system use or leverage? How many frequencies does this narrow band use in leverage? Traditionally, historically, narrow band systems have been working sometimes, sometimes not working, working on some targets, but not working on all targets. That's been historically the impression that directed energy experts have about narrow band systems.

Wide band systems, which we started decades ago, which we started getting at decades ago, leverage something called vacuum tubes or transmit wave tubes, which are these very sort of simple, but very effective amplifiers like gallium nitride, but they amplify in a way that causes

“you have to operate the system differently than the way we operate our system. You can't use the”

same sort of techniques in the same sort of ways that we operate our system. The difference between our narrow band system and previous generations and previous ages that they've tried this is one, we have a component of being able to move the narrow band frequency to whatever frequency within a certain bandwidth that we want to move it at. So we can choose and pick. We can go through and say, "Try this frequency, try this frequency, try this frequency, try this frequency, try this

frequency." So we're trying to match or map the electromagnetic interference to the drone susceptibilities. So some drones may be susceptible to these frequencies, some may not be, some are susceptible to these frequencies, some others may not be. So we've changed sort of the way that narrow band directed energy is used and we do it in a smart way. We talked a little bit about AI. A lot of this system has a lot of software to find AI and other sort of like control

loops, machine learning and stuff like that that helps with prosecuting these various drones and

can't achieve the very, very high effective radiated powers. Like some of the traditional

“systems would have two gigawatts, three gigawatts, four gigawatts of radiated power. But that's just”

not true anymore with gallium nitride. Gallium nitride, if built to the right size and shape, can rival the powers of even those traditional systems. The difference in the advantage of using solid state, which is gallium nitride, the advantage is you can also stretch energy, which means time. So power times time equals energy. So what I can do is hold a note, hold a frequency

for a long span of time, which traditional directed energy could never do. And I'm leveraging

that energy, those huge long pulses. I'm leveraging that energy so that, as you can imagine, a computer has a clock, it's ticking. The clock is ticking. You want to be able to overcome many, many clock cycles as you're trying to get this sort of electromagnetic interference in there. So that's a little deep for the folks that understand directed energy, but it is effective.

“I mean, the proof is the proof. I mean, we have tested this with the army for three years.”

We have tested it in many, many different conditions. We've deployed it in two different regions of the world. We've tested it with warfighters. We've tested it with real air defenders.

This all has been completely sort of put to rest. And folks that have not checked in with

Empress for the last two and a half years, I don't think realize that. In the early days, there's a lot of information that got out there in the struggles we were having to get started up and get them booted up. If you look at what we're delivering today, it's, it's transformable. It's just absolutely a different type of system than what we had even three or four years ago. So systems that are starting to go into production today do work and they work really, really well

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Have you seen if these deployed overseas? They have, yes. Can you talk about where? I'm allowed. On the public domain, people can see that one was in the Philippines on an exercise

Okay. I haven't been able to get through the really the legal limitations and stuff like that

because our system, unlike some of the dual-use drones and the commercial drones and things that are able to easily be sold into Ukraine, our systems are a weapon system. They're considered what's called a category 18 weapon system. Any directed energy system would be called a big categorized as that. We do have these iTar systems, they require a little bit more, I guess approvals and paperwork in order to get them through the hoops and ladders.

Up until now, we've been limited in our ability to do that. Now, this war in the Middle East has kind of changed the game completely and this administration is aggressively helping us to knock down any barriers to getting our allies protected with these systems plus or more fighters, protected with these systems. That's ongoing. I can't say too many of the details because it

gets into operational security like back when we're in the Navy and we would never tell anyone

where our ships are going to move and when they're going to move, these are sort of weapon systems that are moving right now, moving into theater, moving into defense, certain allies, and it's happening. Right now, like I said earlier, we're trying to build one a week. If I could build one a week starting today, I would do it. Wow. Wow. It's not big of a demand. Can you talk a little bit about drone warfare, whether it's Ukraine, Middle East? We don't see it

“here in the US much. I think the closest thing we've seen is all these damn drones that were”

up what a year ago over New Jersey, which I think wound up being an exercise, but well, everybody was freaking out when that happened and I was, oh, shout your guys' company out.

Oh, it's like this has to be us because we already have the capability to take this shit out.

Yeah, but we're not. So it's, well, the biggest one that I saw recently and not, I'm not at all addressing them as a problem. Air Force is actually moving very, very quickly with us right now, but there was an incident not too long ago where the barxdale air force base that has a lot of our nukes and a lot of our strategic bombers and got overflome. And what did it, but it got overflome by swarms, 12 drones at each wave and multiple waves, a wave of 12, a wave of 12, a wave of 12,

totally impervious to jamming according to the article, according to the news. Totally impervious to jamming through over, surveilled everything and flew back. So where were those from? We don't know. We don't know. So when you talk about

“barxdale, when you talk about those kind of surveillance missions, oh boy, are we perfect for it?”

Because not only would we drop all 12 and the next 12 and the next 12. We don't damage the system beyond being able to infiltrate and use for forensics and figure those questions out. The system, the computer, if you turn it off and on, works again, like the drone is broken because when it hits the ground, the plastic break or whatever, but the computer is still intact. Oh, wow. So we can go trace where those things were

coming from and say, oh, okay, I got it. Now we understand where these originated from or those originated from. So I am very, very encouraged this year that 2026 is going to be the year of Empress. It's going to be the year of Leonidas. I think a lot of these things were seeing in the news around the corners. They're going to deploy our systems and we're going to get to the bottom of a lot of the drone activity. We're starting to see on the United States side as well.

But I can't believe they don't have these things deployed already on bases like that. Yeah, it's been a struggle. It's not all. What is the struggle? We had 12 drones come and

“surveil a nuclear site multiple times and there's a struggle. Look, what is the struggle?”

I'll tell you, that can't happen again. The top of the administration have for the most part executed to the the theory of the thesis that we need 80% 90% of the solutions that are ready today. We need them deployed. We need them for deployed. But they're still a frozen middle. I'm I've talked about this. It's like the top guy say do it and if you get in with the frozen middle or the middle people that actually implement the tactics, there's a lot of

sort of hesitation still, right? There's a lot of well until someone tells me officially I can do this differently. I'm going to do it the same way. And so there are a lot of wedded people to their old policies or old processes, their old sort of way of acquiring systems and testing systems and ringing out every little risk to get like 99.999% of the risks out and then when they're sure of it, the ready to go ahead and deploy. Well, that's a peacetime attitude, right? That's a

peacetime attitude. I have some skirmishes, nothing killing any soldiers. I don't have any injuries going on. I'm not losing any equipment. I'm not at war. We can take our time to run through the

with the previous administration on these tests and trials and all the rest. But now we're at war.

I mean, we're conflict, you know, whatever you want to call it, but we are in battle. We are

“combating with others overseas. It's a different, that's a different threshold. I think we need”

to change our attitude. We need to, you know, I have a pretty interesting story if just a two-minute story, but it was during 9/11. We were talking about up on the hill, how you joined right before 9/11 when you went into the Navy. I was out at sea during 9/11. We were off the coast of San Diego about 100 miles on the Johnsea Stennis. We had no planes, no jets. I was running the nuclear plants, the two towers get hit. We get the order to go as fast as that aircraft carrier

can possibly go to get off the coast of Los Angeles. Meantime, there's scramble in, Marines out of Miramar, with sidewinder missiles on F-18s and flying them out. We had no steam in the catapults. I had to get steam to catapults. I had to heat everything up really, really quickly. I had to

get everything military sort of like precision. The transformation of my sailors, I had never

witnessed before or after anything like it. Like when we got hit, every person, every lady, every sailor snapped into a new, like a superhuman, running around, knowing every one of their procedures, knowing exactly how to move. And within a few hours, we're flying basically escorts of every jumbo jet coming in from overseas that hadn't landed yet. Now, the same thing happens with the United States in almost every battle that I've ever seen. We are culturally

speaking underdogs. We are culturally speaking the team that when get sucked in the head goes crazy and just responds. And I saw that with the sailors back there on the tennis. I saw

that when we did the MRAPS, when we had the IED problem in 2008. And that was an incredible like

almost openhymer thing that people don't know about that. The Army Assault right now, Brent Ingraham, led that whole thing like a modern day openhymer. He went from in 2008 where they were spending like 160 million on armored vehicles and such, to billions in just a year. In one year, they changed that whole face of that dynamic of the IEDs hurt and our soldiers. So we are able to

“do this. I think now is our moment. We don't want to let off the gas pedal. Even if the major”

war and the major bombing all cease and we come back, we want to still treat this like a dangerous situation where we need a field and defend ourselves against this persistent, persistent threat. But certainly in at least my vision, I can't see it going away. I can only see it getting worse and either. I mean, I'm the utility of this thing. I think they are going to be everywhere. I think there's the potential form. I mean, you know, we saw what is Operation Spider web,

the drone, I mean, it's just all over Ukraine. And I mean, I don't know how we just talked about 12 flying over a nuclear side. I mean, I feel like that potentially every stadium, shopping mall, anywhere there can be a terror threat. The honestly, I mean, I don't know how realistic that is.

“We can't even harden our schools. You know, but I think I mean, there's this, it's every military”

base, CIA, NSA, White House, Capitol Hill, state capitals. It's a maneuver. It's a maneuver against what we see as a totally asymmetrical vector. We have an asymmetrical vector. We need to put a piece on the chessboard that lets those guys know it's not free for all time anymore. We're going to knock down your drones. We're going to infiltrate those drones and we're coming to find you. You know, it's one thing to stop the bees from stinging, but there's another find that

queen bee where the nest is and stop them. And when we start doing that, it may not need to total ubiquity of every single station, everything, because we'll start getting to the source of the issues, but we need our system. We need other systems like ours. We need direction finding systems. We need other surveillance systems, but that whole network of layers, our system provides a key, key component that's going to level the playing field. Or not only level the playing field,

I would say up end the playing field to put them on the, oh boy, how are we going to fly these drones and then do this? Or how are we going to take that or take that when they see these systems standing up around a stadium for example? I mean, are there any disadvantages to this system versus

by Raytheon or whatever, they have a longer range. They have a much longer range. That's an advantage

of kinetics over our system. When you're talking about similar ranges, kinetics are known quantities. This is kind of like invisible rays and the army is traditionally bullets orientated and moving in that direction. Air force and navy are a little bit more comfortable with new electronic warfare type modalities and stuff, but army is pretty comfortable too. I mean, don't get me wrong. They're absolutely fascinated and want to invest and you know, want to move forward with us, but

it does have, I think that's one of it's actually to answer your question more straightforward. That's its big disadvantage is that it's a zero to one. It's like when Peter Tiel wrote that book

“zero to one. It's a zero to one system. It's a technology people don't understand. That's why I”

appreciate being on the show to try to explain it. And people are afraid of what they don't understand. Either afraid it won't work, afraid it's going to hurt people. And we've dispelled a lot of that. If you look at the facts and data and all the stuff we've done over the last couple of years, we've dispelled almost all of those worries and all of those risks. And now it's a chance to just get some more time kills. Get it out there, get it in battle and put it to the test. And if I'm wrong,

I'm wrong, but you're not going to waste that much more money by everything you've done already so far by getting it out there, getting it in the battlefield. And I don't think that's a hey, let's go challenge and do that. It's like happening. I mean, this wars is driving us to that. Well, it is very impressive what you guys put together out there. Very impressive. Is there anything is there anything I haven't asked you that I should be asking you when it comes to liadnides or

operas? I don't know. We've covered a lot. Even, oh, one other thing that it advantages. So we've talked about the collateral damage and it being a very safe system so you can use it in homeland where as kinetics you can't use in homeland on all situations without being put in a lot of danger to houses and residential types of neighborhoods. So kinetics don't make for a good solution for the homeland. They make a good solution overseas in some cases, but the problem isn't just

costs. We talked a lot about cost, but it's also magazine depth. And we only have a certain amount of missiles and a certain amount of production capacity to build new missiles. And it's very

“difficult. It's not like drones where you can just like, I think I read in something that China”

can make 30 million drones a year. Wow. There's nothing we can make 30 million of in the military

lane. So we have a real magazine depth disadvantage as well by continuing to try to pursue drones with some of the tried and true kind of lion type weapons and defensive weapons and stuff like that. But those are not easily reproducible and they have a long, tight tail when you say, hey, I need another 10,000 of these coyotes rathion. It takes a while to spin up and get that capacity and get that out to the field. So not just cost asymmetry, but magazine depth asymmetry as well.

30 million drones a year. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, when you have a kind of authoritarian communist party that can go in and tell a factory, hey, you're not building laptops, you're building

drones and do that to several places in Chongqing and, and China, I just have never heard that

step before that's alarming. It is alarming. And they've right north of the right north of the Iran, right? I mean, they could be helping out fit those guys. I mean, read about in the news as well, Russia, you know, given them targeting information and such. And so it's an asymmetrical fight and we are less equipped than others to start engaging. But it's our moment. I don't say that

“with negativity in my mind. I think of it just like the 9/11 moment. It's our moment to like be the”

underdog to turn the whole thing over on his head and get out these bad actors. I love it. I love what you guys are building and man, it makes me jump in. When we start hitting some real wartime shoot downs, I'll have to come back on your show and we can talk about how well they're working once they get deployed. I'd love to do that. I'm sure we're not far off. So absolutely perfect. Well, Andy, thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

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