#321 Ryan Holiday - The Stoic Survival Guide

>> Ryan Holiday, welcome to the show, man. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> It's an honor to have you. >> Likewise. >> So, yeah, this year, one of my goals is to become a little more stoic

as the political and world current events just continue to spiral out of control. That's when one of my goals, primarily for my family, you know, it's just-- you seem stoic though, lowercase stoic, that's it. >> You see, you see, are you not? >> I tend to lose my shit every once in a while, but as we all do, but yeah, I just--

I want to be a little more stoic primarily for my family, my kids. >> Yeah, I'm the same way.

“I mean, I think there's some people who are sort of naturally there,”

and then have kids, and then you realize you're not there at all. >> Yeah, but-- and actually several-- my wife's been wanting me to do this for a while, and I bet at five, six years ago, she gave me one of your books. And I really first heard about you when I read it, it was like a daily. >> Yep, a daily stoic.

>> Maybe stoic, yeah. >> And read through that, and then this year got Marcus Aurelius' book on stoicism, and so this is perfect. Now you're here, all right? >> Why, I brought you a good edition of Marcus Aurelius. I don't know what you have.

This is my favorite translation. So I think what's cool about this is like, my, I don't know.

Here you have the private thoughts of the most powerful person in the world,

and almost certainly not intended for publication, like he might be mortified that we're holding this right now. So, you know, most books are written for the audience, right? But this is a book for the author. Like, like, that it's a book is the byproduct of the philosophical process,

which is like, he's has a temper. He has anxiety. He has a shitty job with people who you can't trust, and an empire that's coming apart, and he has health problems, he has marital problems, he has a plague.

There's floods, it's a series of endless wars. And what he's doing is sitting down and writing to himself, trying to get back to center, right? >> Interesting. >> And, and it just wasn't burned upon his death,

or it wasn't destroyed when he died. And so it doesn't, it doesn't read like a typical book. I mean, it's, it's 12 books, each passage is numbered, but it's really like almost like journal or diary entries,

“because that's what Stosism is, is like this.”

You know how you're trying to be, and then you're here. There's a great line of meditations where he's saying, like, fight to be the person that philosophy tried to make you, and that's what he's doing. >> And you say that again?

>> It says fight to be the person that philosophy tried to make you, or fight to be the person that philosophy wants you to be. Right? It's like, we all know the idea, the ideal, like what our best self is, and then we're disregulated, or we're tires, or we're hungry, or somebody's being really awful,

and annoying, and we're struggling to be, to get from the lower self to the higher self. >> Gotcha. >> Right? And that's what, that's what this is. So I got this, and then this, this one will hopefully,

like, meditations should be, it should be a book that you, like most books you read, right? This meditation should be a book that you are reading, like it should sit on the nightstand, and you pick it up, and you read it throughout your life,

because it was written throughout someone's life, but the idea is that you don't know what passage you're going to need until you're flipping through the book, and it jumps out at you. That's the idea of meditations.

>> Roger that. Thank you. >> All right, I got a bunch more, I won't take so much time, but I know you got, I know you got young kids, do you know Steve Renella? >> Yeah, I'll meet you there.

>> This is, I think, this is, for he wrote an amazing book

about hunting called the American Buffalo, which is like one of my favorite books, he gets a Buffalo tag in Alaska, and he goes to hunt, and the American Pisces, and it's all about that. That's my favorite Steve Renella book, but as a parent,

this is outside kids in an inside world.

“I think that's what every parent is struggling with right now,”

because screens are so addictive, and video games are so exciting, and we're all glued to our devices, right? I mean, people are probably listening to this, almost certainly listening to this on a device right now. But the point is you want to raise outdoor kids, right?

Kids, he says, you want to raise kids that don't say you a lot, because they're good being outside getting dirty,

doing nonsense, that I love that book, I think it's amazing.

Yeah, we live in a ranch in Texas, so we're pretty outdoorsy,

but as a constant fight, it's like, they love it when they're out there, but they hate the process of getting out there. Really? Do you know what, like, it's like, when we were yesterday, we went on a hike, they did not want to get out of the car, they did not want to go on it, and then as soon as they were in it,

“they loved it, right? And that's like, I think the struggle”

is the, is the, is the starting, you know what I mean? Yeah. All right, so we get that. Oh, this is another interesting parenting one. This is about Churchill and his son. So Churchill has a horrible father and horrible mother,

basically neglect him, becomes a great man,

and he tries to do better with his son, but he doesn't do a great job. And I think, I think that's another thing that keeps us up at 90s parents. It's like, if you're successful, how do you not raise spoiled entitled kid? You don't, they have comforts and security and love that maybe we didn't get,

but how do you make sure that that works to their advantage, not that they're, to their disadvantage, right? And so I thought it's, it's a, it's a, it's a really interesting,

“sort of, because it looks at three generations, right?”

It looks like Churchill and his father, and then obviously Churchill and then Churchill and his son, it's a great book. I thought you'd been like that one. Have you read any stockdale? No, I haven't. All right, so this is

thoughts of a philosophical fighter pilot. So stockdale goes to the Naval Academy in '43. Graduates becomes a pilot, and it's not until, since 20 years as a pilot, it's not until the 90s sense him to stand for where it gets a graduate degree

that he's introduced to stock philosophy. On his last day at Stanford, his philosophy professor goes, "Hey, I think you might like this book. It gives him a copy of Epictetus, the stock philosopher." And he does two more deployments there before he gets shot down, and that's his sort of, he's, every, every night in his bunk on the,

on the, on the Tycon of Rogan and the constellation, a little bit on the, on the, on the, on the arriscony, he's reading stock philosophy. So when he gets shot down in '65, he says, he's famously says to himself, "I am leaving the world of technology and entering the world of Epictetus." And it's in the handway, Hilton, that he basically takes

stoic philosophy as a, which was a sort of, you know, theoretical thing, and he applies it in this, what he calls the, the laboratory of human behavior. Holy shit.

Did you get to meet him? I see. I never got to meet him.

“He died, yeah, I think he died in 2008 or six. What does it say?”

He died in 2006 at the age of 81. Yeah, no, I met his children, and I met a lot of people that have met him, but just, I mean, one of the greatest Americans ever. Man, incredible book, you'll love that. I was just, I'm, I'm doing, I'm actually doing a book on Stockdale right now. And this is, um, do you ever read the right stuff? Tom Wolfbook? No.

Oh, you would like that too. So that's about test pilots who become the first astronaut, so it's about John Glenn and Chuck Eager, really good. But this is, um, this is about, there's a little Stockdale on there, too. This is like about, uh, carrier pilots in Vietnam. I, I, not enough people know about this book. It's incredible.

It's called Over the Beach. It was Stockdale's favorite book about, um, about the Air War in Vietnam. And then the guys that could shop down. So I just read that. I think you would like that. If you don't read a lot, I think you would like that book. Perfect. And then the last one, uh, you ever read any Huntress Thompson? Yes. Okay. So Huntress Thompson, we think of as the badass wild man crazy guy.

You think fear and loathing in Las Vegas is a book about drugs and alcohol, which it is. But it's, the subtitle of that book is, it's about the American dream, because he's also one of our most astute sort of cultural and political writers. And so this is freaking them, um, and it's about, uh, Huntress Thompson as a political thinker and critic, because he covers Nixon, he covers Carter, he covers like every

presidential candidate between, you know, sort of the, the late '60s and, and then his death. And, uh, I don't know, I got this sense. I think you would line up with where, because you're kind of like a man without a party. You're, you're politically engaged. You have, but you're not like Democrat Republican. Um, I think you, I think you'd like that book. It's, he, what he's primarily is anti-fascists, not like antifa, but anti-fascism.

Like, doesn't like fascism. Doesn't like people telling him what to do. Doesn't like liars. Doesn't like hypocrites. Uh, it doesn't like corruption. And, uh, I'm just going to let this thing, I think, I think you're going to like it. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Well, so keep it busy.

I'll, outside Austin. And so, uh, my, my favorite thing is when I'm going to meet someone or someone

“comes in like what, what books, what I think they like. That's my, that's my, that's what gets me excited.”

So those are the ones that you'd like. Thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate that. I'm, actually, I want to talk about this one later. Okay. A fatherhood segment done. Uh, this is something I talk about all the time. Uh, with a lot of, a lot of different people. Okay. How they do it. But, uh, well, my gift is not as exciting, but this is the gummies, the visual and sweet gummy bears. Legal and all 50 states made the USA. All right.

Horrible for you, but they taste amazing. So, but, uh, let me, let me, let me give you an introduction

here. All right. Look, Ryan holiday author of 12 books on stoicism with more than 10 million copies sold, including the obstacle is the way ego is the enemy and stillness is the key. You're the founder of daily stoic reaching millions through books, podcast, newsletters, and YouTube. Your work is right in NFL locker rooms, special operations units. I can attest to that. And Silicon Valley boardrooms, and 2025, you completed your four books, stoic virtue series,

and launched a sold-out world tour across Australia, Ireland, and beyond. Welcome to the show. Yeah. Thanks. And, uh, so we have a Patreon account. Yeah. And, uh, it's turned into quite the community and the be honest or the reason I get to sit down here with you today. All right. Um, so they get the opportunity to ask every single guest a question. This is from Corey Smith. Ryan, for people battling anxiety, depression, or the

long recovery from a brain injury, when the brain can feel like at the obstacle, how can stoic

principles be applied most effectively? Oh, I mean, I can speak more to the first two than the

then the brain injury. That's not something I have direct experience with. But I think, basically what stoicism is that it's core is this kind of distance between you and your thoughts. Right? This is similar to Eastern philosophy. But it's the idea that you have the opinion, you have the feeling, you have the dread or the anxiety or the worry or the frustration or the anger, and you're trying to take a second and ask yourself, is this true, right? Like, um,

you're worried about this thing happening. And what you're not stopping and thinking is like, hey, is my worrying about this, affecting the outcome in any way or my just torturing myself,

right? Um, you're not asking yourself, hey, let's say it does happen. What then?

Right? Because often times what we're torturing ourselves with is this kind of vague idea that like,

“oh, if this happens, that will be bad, and I won't be able to handle it. But the truth is, we handle”

stuff all the time. We've handled everything in our lives up until this point or we wouldn't be here. We've survived everything in our lives up until this point or we wouldn't be here. And so stoicism is the is, it's funny. He said, here, she said about, you know, your brain is the obstacle. Sometimes the brain is the obstacle. It injure or not. Like, we have biases, we have patterns, we have things that we make up, and they're not true, right? It's based on

things that we haven't really worked through. And stoicism is the idea of sort of working through that. And that's, again, what marks through us is doing in the meditations. It's not like this magical formula that as soon as you hear it, you don't have that problem anymore. It's the, how am I going to pause and think about this and work through it. And decide whether I'm going to, uh, a sense to it or not. The epictetus is one of the stoic philosophers. You would

talk about how, like, he says a good money changer, like a person you would get money from in the ancient world. You know, he said, they, they know how to tell a counterfeit coin from a real coin by, by banging it on the table. Like, they don't have to melt it down to test them out. They just know, right? You have that intuition just now. And I think what stoicism is, whether you're doing journaling, whether you're taking a few minutes, whether you take a long walk or you're just

talking through it with someone you know, stoicism is about asking yourself, hey, is this real or not? Is this true or not? Is this productive or not? Is this helpful or not? Again, this is all very

“easy to say. But that, that's what it is as a process is, is to deal with precisely those feelings,”

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some of these books and and start digging in, it kind of feels like I would go back into bottling it back up. So I want to, I just want to ask, you know, what's it, where's the release valve

“and stoicism? Yeah. It's not bottling it up. I think, I think, obviously the word stoic in English.”

Like, so stoicism comes about the 4th century BC. This is kind of Zeno, found this school philosophy. He's inspired by the cynics and another word that we don't do. Great justice to an English language. We think cynics or cynicism means sort of negative or skeptical or, you know, it doesn't believe in anything. Not what it is at all. And stoicism is called stoicism because Zeno sets up his school on the stoopoculate, the painted porch in Athens. stoicism just

means porch. These were guys hanging out on this porch talking about these ideas. Now, flash forward 20, 500 years later, when we go, oh, that guy is really stoic. We take that to me, like, he doesn't feel anything. He's a robot. He's stuff sit down. And that's not what it is at all. To me, it's about processing that emotion asking yourself, hey, is this productive or not productive, like, is losing my shit about this? Is that helping anything or is it, in fact,

hurting myself, other people making the situation worse? So it's not like, hey, I'm feeling an emotion. Emotions are not okay. Let me, let me wipe knuckle it. To me, it's about asking yourself,

“working through it. Hey, why am I feeling this way? What is this doing for me?”

And then I think your question about, like, where's the release valve? It's a good one because, to me, I find that release valve in the work, and usually in some kind of physical activity. Like, I think you've got to have outlets for it, but the idea of just getting to a place where you're pretending it's not happening. Like, grief, you know, if you just go, oh, I don't feel that. That's not real. We have multiple stories about Marx's really is crying, right? The most

famous stoic in the world that we don't have that much, like the historical records relatively thin on this person. Like, we don't have that many stories about him, right? And I think there's four about him crying. One is over the loss of a tutor. I like one of his favorite teachers does. Another is when he's told he's going to become emperor. He's just like so overwhelmed at the weight of the job. He doesn't think he can do it. And then two others are about the

the victims of the plague. Marx really says the emperor of Rome during what's called the Antonyne Plague, which is this devastating pandemic that kills millions and millions of people. And then another is when he's told that an earthquake has flattened this Roman city. And so, like, in all these cases,

he's not stuffing his emotions. And in fact, in the first story about the beloved teacher,

you know, he's trying to not feel the emotion. He's like a young kid. And, you know, he'd probably

little bitch, right? Like he's not, he's clearly upset that the fact that this person he loves has

died. And one of his philosophy teachers goes to him and tries to tell him like, like, you know, let's keep it under wraps, kid. And his stepfather, who's the emperor of Rome Antonyne's piece, he sees this and it goes, no, no, no, no. He says, let the boy be human. And so, it's stoicism to me is not

“you never have the emotion or that you stuff it down. I think it's more like, okay, look, if you're”

still paralyzed by this grief a year later, you can't get out of bed, you know, that's a problem, right? To me, it's the, it's the, the processing, the passing of the emotion, and then it's getting

back to center as quickly as possible. That, that to me is what the philosophy is. Okay, yeah,

I think this book here, Meditations is going to be very interesting. I think you'll like it, because I just, it does seem, it does feel like kind of stuffing your emotions, what you're saying, what you're thinking before acting. But really, you don't really got me and do it as I've started bitching all the time. It's just bitching about, I'll just be on it. I haven't been happy with the last two administrations, but at all. And I feel like I've really

got duped on this one. And, you know, and so I want to be more solutions based and focus on actual solutions than just do what everybody else does. And yeah, let's bitch about all the problems. Let's bitch about the Epstein vows. Let's bitch about the wars. There has to be, let's bitch about the stuff that we've been bitching about for, you know, ever. Yeah. And at least as long as I've been around and there's just very few people that take the time to take the things that make them

angry and come up with real focused potential solutions. And it's important one of the things you hear the stoics talk about is like getting some perspective, right? Like, none of this is new. So Seneca is one of the famous stoics. You know who his boss was? It was Neuro. Like, his boss is the worst leader, maybe of all time. Right? And I got to imagine this is stressful. I imagine it's demoralizing. I imagine there's a lot to bitch about. Like, in a way none of this is new. Correct.

“Corruption is not new. Hypocracies not new. The climbing empire is not new. The only thing that's”

new about any of this is that we have a lot more information in real time about what's happening. Right? Like, it was possible to get away from it in the past in ways that we can't. Now, it was also worse in the past in other ways, right? Like, you know, no one's being forced to to fight for their life in the Coliseum. Let's say, right? There's definitely some things that are better. But like, I think about even Socrates, right? Socrates, you think, oh, that was

that guy. He wore the Toga. He walked around Athens. He asked those questions. You know, must have been pretty chill. And it's like, Socrates lives through the Peloponnesian war. Like Athens fights like a generationally long war against Sparta and loses. Like his country, like loses a world war effectively. And then Athens is ruled by 30 tyrants that literally it's known as the time of the 30 tyrants. I mean, like the world must have felt like it was falling apart.

And it was falling apart. And so I think one of the things you can take from the study of history. And I think, I think we all need a study history more, right? Like people like people watch too much news and don't read enough history. And the reason for this is like, they think that being that their job is to be an informed citizen. And it is your job is to be an informed citizen in America.

In any democracy. The problem is watching news in real time is not necessarily the best way to be

informed. And so I urge people to read more history, but not because it takes anything away from the moral calamities that are happening in this moment. But it allows you to understand them in context. It allows you to understand which ones are really important and which ones are kind of par for the course.

“And it allows you to also remember that like no one has lived in a perfect society. And that most”

of the people that you admired were looking around at the world and going, what the fuck are we doing? This is insane. And that actually the job is to not despair, not to get into like bitterness and

revenge a lot. You're going to imagine the most powerful man in the world if he wants to get revenge on

someone, he can do some pretty heinous things to people. But he says, you know, he tries to remind himself the best revenge is to not be like your enemy. And one of the things I look out at the world and I go, I don't like the corruption. I don't like the cruelty. I don't like the dishonesty. I don't like the pettiness. I don't like the crassness. I don't like any of this. Now obviously as a citizen, my job is to vote against those things, speak out against those things. But my main job as a person

philosophically is to not be those things. Right? Like if what you allow is the shittiness of what's happening around you to make you feel shitty and worse to be shitty, like they're winning.

“And so I think that's to me that's where stoicism really has a lot to offer because we are living”

in disorienting, disappointing, disillusioning times. But if you allow that to strip from you, you're happiness at home, your productivity at work, your, you know, your decency, your kindness, your connection to other people, like it is winning. And that's that's kind of how I think about it. I mean, how do you, I'm curious too, because I mean, it's, you know, I brought up, I brought up politics. Yeah. But there's just so many other, and I think that's something

that everybody can relate to one way or another, right? Yeah. But I mean, we're going to talk about this, you know, towards the end of the interview. And I guess we're talking about a little bit right now, but you know, as you find success, you also find very disingenuous people that start to come around. They want to take advantage of you. Sure. They want to take advantage of your kids to get to you. They want to take advantage of your wife to get to you. They are not honest people, you know,

and, and you've throughout the world, revenge, you know, and that's, in my mind, I mean, revenge used to be something that, I mean, I would waste it an entire day planning all the things that I could do to somebody that took advantage of me or wronged me or or fucked over my family or myself or whatever, whatever the circumstances are. And then I, you know, back in the long time ago, I would act on that. Yeah. This is the best plan.

Let's start. We're going to do this. And then I, you know, and then I realize this is just a total

“fucking waste of energy. Yeah. And it just makes you look like an asshole, I think. And so”

now, I can't help myself a lot of times. And I will still go through the planning phase on what I could, what can I do to get back at this person? And then I've developed one where

somehow I've developed enough discipline to never act on it. But that's a good first step and just

a let it go. I imagine it, if there's an extra level of, uh, that temptation, but we're like, I could break this person in half. You know, like, I don't, that's not a thought that enters my head. But I, I imagine when you are trained to do what you are trained to do. And at different points in your life, that has been unleashed. That just, just the restraint of going, hey, that's not the, that's not the, the rules of engagement in the world that I'm in now. That would be like a level of,

like, restraint that you would have to practice. But one of the things I think about is like, okay, if somebody tried to control my thoughts or controlled what I said, controlled what I did, I'd like, I'd resist that, like, just instinctively. I'm, that's, no, I get to decide. I'm in charge. And yet, we kind of hand our minds over to people all the time. Like, we let them, we let them just take up, like, inordinate amounts of time and space in our life. I was talking

to this, talking to this writer, I know. And she was saying, you know, she really didn't like what was happening politically. And she was saying that she was having trouble. She's like, I just can't, I can't work right now. Like, just like, I'm so outraged. I'm so upset. So pissed off that like, I just, I can't, I can't do it. And I was saying, like, okay, but like, if this administration came to you and was like, hey, if you keep doing your work, we're going to throw

you in prison, you'd be like, you, that would be so immediately galvanizing, that it would fire

you up, right? You would never allow a government of any persuasion to tell you what you can and can't

“say. Like, that's the job of an artist, right? And that's what it means to be an American. That's what's”

all right there in the First Amendment. And I was like, but here, voluntarily, you're doing

you off or whatever, you're allowing it to consume so much of your mental bandwidth and your motivation. That's having the same effect. Like, they might as well be putting a gun to your head and saying you can't do this. But it's actually worse because they're not doing that. And so I do think it's really

“important that we, we, you gotta have some mechanism by which you put up some walls and boundaries.”

And then you protect the thing that is yours. Like, the, the stoics would say the greatest

empire is like command of yourself, right? Your sovereignty as an individual. And the problem is we

give that up all the time because somebody cut us off in traffic, you know, like, because we opened up our phone and the news was bad because our parents are visiting or, you know, what, like, we just let these things get inside us and then determine our mood, determine our, you know, our focus, determine what we think about, determine our behavior. And I mean, it's not easy. It's a lot of work. And I, I fall down this, you know, sort of into these traps all the time,

but I, I am trying to go, hey, like, I'm, I got to, I got to protect this, even, even if,

“it feels good for it, it, it, it feels natural. I can't allow that.”

Have you ever done psychedelics? No. Okay. Well, reason I'm asking, yeah, I have, I did,

I did an, I began treatment in Mexico four years ago. I haven't had a drop of loose sense, but a lot more on the moment. It, it, it was very, it was a life changing experience for me. Anyways, the reason I bring it up is it's, it's, there's been very few times in my life where I've been able to completely separate myself from, I guess, maybe my ego and look at things from a, just a detached point of view that's maybe a different perspective than what I'm feeling

in the moment. One of the things that I, I did this, like, really intense therapy thing, and I was,

I was, um, you know, sort of like, just a farm, and all this anger and resentment, I had at

these, this group of people, and, um, the therapist was like, um, you know, they're not thinking about you at all, right? And, and he was like, they, they're just doing their thing. That's who they are. They, they have no awareness, not only they're not doing it on purpose, um, but like, they're utterly unconcerned and disinterested of it's effect on you. Like, they're not waking up and thinking about torturing you in this way, they're not waking up and thinking about abusing

you in this way, they're not waking up and trying to make you miserable. They're inherently selfish, narcissistic people, like, they're waking up and thinking about them. He's not saying it's awesome to be them. He's just saying, like, they're not thinking about you at all. And it's like,

“we can see this, I think much more clearly in other stuff, like, the economy's not thinking about you,”

like, a hurricane's not thinking about you. That truck barreling towards you on the fruit is not thinking about you, but then for some reason, because people do have intentions, and, and obviously, we have to be aware of them. We do, I think, project a lot more intentionality on other people than it's actually happening. And I think when you have someone who's like, like, way inside your head, reminding yourself that you're not inside their head is really important. And then I, like, you

all sometimes, I'll be like, I just planned out, like, a whole operation in my head of what I'm going to do if they do this. And it's like, this is a hypothetical. Like, I just, I just, my whole run, I was thinking about what I'm going to say if they say this, and then I'm going to say this, and then but, and it's like, this conversation might not even happen. It's emergency planning. Yeah, for, for, for a made-up scenario about a person that again, if you ask them, you're like, they'd be like,

who? They wouldn't think about me at all. And so it's, like, you're not the center of the universe, and almost certainly you're not the center of whatever the situation that you're making all about you is. Makes sense. Also, where I was going with that is, is stoicism, the ability to kind of view things, not as a participant of what's happening. It's just strictly an observation

sometimes it's helpful to zoom way out, but it's like, a lot of times it's like, how do I take

“myself out of this equation? Okay. And that's what ego does, right? Ego makes it all about you.”

It makes you at the center of things. And even just remembering that, like, everyone is the center of their situation, and that, like, you're not the main character and all these other people's stories, you're the, uh, a tangential character at best, is, is helpful. Like, yeah, why am I making this all about? Like, this was not, whatever this was, was not specifically chosen to drive you nuts. Like, like, um, and, um, that again, it's, it's, it's totally indifferent to you. Like, one of the ideas for the

topics is a venture objective are opinions about them or not. Like, the situation is what it is, and then we say, like, this is good or bad. I don't mean morally, like, positive or negative. We say, like, this is fair, unfair. We say this is like, mean or cruel. We say this was, you know, targeted. We say, like, we've been harmed by, like, the thing is, and then we decide what it means. And a lot of times, the stories we tell ourselves about stuff are pretty self-absorbed,

“pretty distorted, and, um, like, pretty emotional. And I think, how do you get better at”

going, what if I could see this from another perspective or another way? Or what if I told myself a different story about this event? Yeah. What, what happens? I mean, what goes through your, when I told you, you know, I'll spend an entire day planning revenge, yeah, or vengeance. What happens in your head when you're wrong, when you think you've been wrong, when celebrities? Well, often times I go, okay, um, let's say I, I pull this revenge off.

In all the times in my life when I have done it, how did I feel after? Pretty shitty. Yeah, shitty, or at best to disappointed, you know? And why am I telling myself it's going to be different this time? And the idea of thinking about what you're going to think after is like a

really powerful way. Do you know, you know, the word Epicurian? I don't. That's, that was the

rival school to the Stoics. There's the Stoics and the Epicurians. And Epicurian also in English tends to mean, like, love's pleasure, um, you know, indulges every whim. And that's not really what they thought at all. But Epicurian is what he would say. He was, let's say, more pleasure seeking than the Stoics. He would say that like, if you're going to, you're like, hey, let's share this bottle of wine. He's like, you can't think about just how it's going to feel on the way down.

“You have to think about how you're going to feel after. And that part of the, uh, the experience”

has to be put into the calculation. Okay. But humans are bad at this, right? Like we, we tell ourselves, oh, if I make this amount of money, then I'll feel secure and good. If I get with this

person, then I'll feel, it'll be amazing. And then I'll feel good. And people will look, if I get this

car, if I, if I, if I win this office, if I, you know, hit this number on the chart, like we, we just, we tell ourselves this lie that like this thing will do something for us. Now, the first time or when you're younger, we can excuse this because like, we don't have, although there's all sorts of wisdom out there telling us that it's not going to do what we think it's going to do for us. We don't, we haven't directly tested the hypothesis ourselves. But I think as you get older to still be

falling for that lie is a problem, right? You know, like, you know how you feel when you have a hangover, you got to take, like, that should change the drinking that you do. You know that, um, I don't know, your marriage is incredibly important to you and certainly not worth a few minutes of pleasure. And yet you, in the moment, are considering doing something that, you know, would, would blow that up,

or you know all your other accomplishments have never made you feel secure or like you've arrived,

that there's an emptiness or a holiness to them. And yet, you go, it's different this time. Like, why do we, I mean, yeah. Well, I think from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes total sense, right? Like, if, if humans were good at being like, I'm good. I don't need anymore. Like, enoughness is not a great evolutionary feeling, but like, insatiability makes you go on to the

bad for the individual. I think it's, we're not, we are not designed to, our biology is not

inclined to make us feel content and happy and secure. And it takes a lot of work, like to counteract that impulse. How have you done it? I mean, I, I struggle with it like everybody else. I, I, I, I try to walk through this process. Like, how am I going to, like, am I, it's not that, to me, like, going like, okay, hey, if I get on the other side of this, this accomplishment, this achievement, whatever, it's not going to make me feel, it's not going to magically feel

some hole in my soul. That doesn't mean it's not we're doing. I can find other reasons to do it.

Like, it's challenging. It's interesting. You know, it's beneficial to people around me. Like,

there's other reasons to do it. So I, I, and then what I find is that if I'm doing it for those different reasons, the outcome, if I'm lucky enough to get it, I, I feel differently about it too, because there's not, there's not a false expectation that was impossible to meet.

“But I, I think I, I mean, I, I'm constantly trying to to,”

stop and go, why do I, why do I keep finding myself in this same, why don't, you know, in the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Like, that's, that's like the kind of the human condition. And I'm like, why, why do I keep sort of back in myself in this corner, finding myself going down this late, and then I'm like, I know better than this. I'm doing it, I think I'm doing it better than I was when I was 19, but like, I'm still doing

some version of it. And I think that's kind of, we're all battling these kind of scripts or these patterns that we picked up on in our lives. And we're trying to get a little, trying to get a little better at it. That's where we go. Yeah, it reminds me of the saying nothing, nothing's what it's cracked up to be. But, well, how did you get into this? I was a, I was a, I was a, I was not your interest. Yeah, it's funny. I was in college. I was taking a philosophy class. And then I went to

this, uh, I went to this conference. I was, I was a, I wrote for the college newspaper. And, um, I asked the, the guy who's speaking, I said, like, hey, you got any book recommendations.

“And he was like, you know, I'm reading this guy epititous. I think he would like it.”

And I ended up getting somehow, I, I forget how, but I ended up with Marcus Realies instead, probably because I saw the movie gladiator. And, and, uh, and I just, I opened this book, and I got what the fuck is this been? You know, like, um, this is what, like, this exists, like, this, this advice is there, like, and it kind of just, it kind of just turned my world upside down. Also, just, just that, I think, I think all young people,

ever, anyone coming of age, but, but, but men, especially in this world are looking for, like, the path, like, what should you do? What should you not do? And they're looking for it in a way that, like, school doesn't address. They're looking for it in a way that the church doesn't address.

“I mean, especially, I think, I think it's some ways, like, uh, you know, some sports programs”

and definitely maybe like a military tradition. It is based on certain values and, uh, you're, you're being inducted into a way of life, right? But if you don't have that, you know, you go away to college and they're like, you can do whatever you want. Like, you can be whoever you want. You can do whatever you want. If it feels good, it's right, you know? You just have a effectively unlimited choice, right? Like, we live in a world, like,

religion used to go, like, hey, don't do these things or you'll go to hell. And I think, obviously, that puts a lot of fear and shame and control on people that's not good.

But the problem is when you, when you say, hey, do whatever you want. Nothing's wrong.

Everything's right. Trust your gut. You know, like, the last thing in 19-year-old should be doing this trust in their gut. Like, you're an idiot, you know? Especially, like, a, especially a 19-year-old dude, you know? Like, um, and so I think what struck me about stoicism was like, oh, this is a,

people in the world. Some of the most powerless people in the world. I petite this is a slave.

And these are people that we're, we're dealing with uncertainty, chaos, and disorder, and dysfunction. They were dealing with temptation. They were dealing with adversity. They were dealing with loss and pain. And hey, they, they wrote some of their experiences down. And they, they put it into a framework that, that is actually strikingly moderate. Let's

“say it's timeless. And I think that's what, like, sitting at the table in my college apartment,”

I was like, oh, okay. Like, this makes sense to me. In a 21, you're the director of marketing for American apparel. How did that happen? And insane. I mean, it says more about the company than it does about me. You know, it was a dysfunctional, crazy, you know, shit show, really. But yeah, it was to be a huge company. It was. I mean, it was a huge company when I, when I started there. I, I, I, I had nothing to do with it becoming what it became.

But I got sort of thrown into the deep end. And, and yeah, it was,

yeah, my 20s were nuts. But I, I, I watched a, you know, a guy, I created a billion dollar company

and then destroy a billion dollar company. And I watched people get caught up in it. I watched people get sort of spun sideways by it. I watched people enable it. You know, I enabled it. And so I, you know, in a way, it was like, it was um, it was quite an education. And I mean, it was like, it was like a king's court. Like he was the sort of king and everyone was, uh, you know, carrying favor and wanted something and, you know, it was, it was, it was a, it certainly informed

like what I ended up writing about a lot. At a 25-year-old trust me, I'm lying. Yeah. What did that come from? Um, it was also, you know, American pair was one of the sort of most controversial companies in the world at that time. And so, you know, I, I had sort of a window seat to how the media environment worked. And then I worked with a number of other sort of controversial clients and stuff over the years. So I, I wrote an expose on, on sort of the media system and

and marketing and PR. I mean, I basically wrote a book on fake news in 2011. That's one of

“it seems like. Yeah. Yeah. I, the funny thing is I thought, I thought, um, I remember trying to get the”

book out as quickly as possible. Going like, like, this is right now. And you know, and if anything I was probably essentially, um, but I was, I was watching how, like, the sausage got made, right? Like, how true stories got distorted and how made up stories became true. And how people could get attention, what attention would do to people, um, the incentives of the media system. And so the book was me kind of trying to rip back the curtain on on what that was and how it

worked. Can you go into it a little bit? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's funny because I, I mean, I wrote that book. So this is, it's now. Yeah. But it's fun. It's like, you know, I wrote that book before TikTok existed before, um, before I think maybe Instagram had just come out, um, I was writing mostly about a world of blogs and, you know, sort of, not traditional media, but like, traditional media as it was being intersected by social media. And I mean, if anything, just all those trends have accelerated

“now. Um, but it was, uh, ultimately that what I am trying to say in the book is like, you have to”

think about the incentives operating on both sides of the equation. The people that are trying to get messages out, and then the people who are communicating those messages, and that everyone is effectively competing for attention in this enormous ecosystem or this marketplace. And so in a world where it used to be, okay, half the world, I have the country subscribes to the New York Times, half subscribes to Washington Post. Now both these papers have an agenda, um, there's a bias,

And they're putting out a, you know, a 40-page newspaper where once you buy it, um, all the information is there, right? Like, if you look at like the headline in the New York Times for the pentagon papers, it's like, there's no sensationalism in it, there's no crazy. Because like, you're not buying the New York Times in Grand Central Station with a news boy like shouting like extra extra, we'd all about it, right? Which was the media environment in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

And so basically what the internet did is it broke all that apart, and it made it so

every story, every headline, every article, every clip is competing with everything else out there. Right? So it's like, what's the craziest? What tells people what they want to hear?

“What pisses people off, right? Um, what offers the most certainty. That's what draw, like,”

uh, an analogous way, like, what happened in the early to mid 2000s is akin to what's happening now with podcasts, like, which I'm sure you've experienced, which is like, there was this period where podcasts were long-form interviews, um, that subscribers of that podcast listened to, right? So you have all the subscribers to this show, and you think about like delivering high quality guests who you have a long, form conversation with, and people listen to the whole thing.

And then what's been happening in the last, I don't know, two years is like the sort of the clip economy, right? Where now it's like about the most sensational, like, so that two-hour conversation

is distilled down into a 20-second clip or whatever. And what that's doing is creating, as I'm

“sure you're seeing it with peers, if yours is like, a lot of competition for, like, the craziest”

clips, like, gotcha moments or, or conversely, like, you're just having the same conversation, but then people are coming and cutting out those clips and spreading. And so it's create, it's, now it's creating a lot of pressure and a lot of noise, um, and changing the incentives of the medium. And so what I was writing about in trust me, I'm lying was that sort of first wave of that happening where, like, now you don't read all website, you read articles from that website,

and you only read them because it's showing up in your Facebook feed or showing up in Twitter, or it's because somebody emailed it to you, right? And that's creating an incentive of bias towards certain kinds of emotion. Like, for instance, they, they found that, like, the valence of the extremeness of the emotion is like the number one predictor of morality. So like, something that makes you feel pretty good is not going to be shared as something that makes you extremely angry.

Or something that makes you kind of angry is not going to spread as well as something that makes you laugh really hard. And so it's creating this incentive for extremes, right? So everything it becomes exaggerated, you know, distorted version of itself to meet that. And then you layer on

top of that. Like, this is the first, in the sort of blog world, one of the first kind of big breakthroughs

was like reporters or influencers or what? You were, your job performance was like how much traffic your article got or how many views your video got, right? Which is different than how journalists had basically been paid for the entirety of the institution. And so in the same way that you wouldn't want a journalist to own like shares in a stock that they were reporting on. Now they own stock in the story. Like, they want instead of being like, hey, it's complicated.

And we don't know, which isn't going to do well. They're like, it, it shapes the story that they're

“writing. And I think what we're seeing now now that people are working for outlets less and less”

and working for themselves more and more. Like, are you going to tell your sub-stack audience what they don't want to hear? Are you going to have a guest on like not you, but like you're going to imagine someone in a different financial position. You're like, hey, when I, when I have these kind of guests, my Patreon numbers go down. And when I have these kind of guests, my Patreon numbers go up. Or, you know, donations go up when I do this. And they go down when I do this. And so now, again, these financial

incentives are acting on the information that people are getting. And people are not good at evaluating the reliability of the person they're getting information. We're just really bad at it.

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“that the thirst for real information has significantly diminished because now people are more”

concerned with confirming their opinions and their own thoughts. And so rather than actually search for some kind of truth, or really try to figure out what the hell is going on, what's at the bottom of this. Instead of doing that and spending the time to research and hear other opinions and perspectives, they immediately sift through everything they possibly can to find the one person that is going to tell them everything that they're thinking is correct,

and then it turns into they tell them how to think. And it's become like this lazy search for

for just confirming your own biases, opinions, and thoughts. And there's always going to be someone

who will fill that need. So like we saw this in the aftermath of the 2020 election, right? It's like, oh, if you're not going to tell the audience what they want to hear, then they're just going to go watch this channel. And if that channel isn't going to do it, they're going to watch this channel. And so it's like, choice is good, but the problem with choice when it comes to information is that you're creating a market incentive for people to lie to you. And typically that incentive is

mitigated or by the fact that the media outlet is owned by a big company, or the reporter themselves is a salary to employ you, identifies as a journalist or a writer or whatever. It's different when it's like, no, no, no, like, I write for sub-stack, and I am directly dependent on how many subscribers I have. So like, audience capture, there's fewer intermediaries between the creator and the sort of payment structure. Now, in many ways, this is great for creators because there's

fewer people taking, you know, picking their pocket along the way, but it also means that they are directly exposed to some perverse incentive. Like, audience captures right there. There's an influence. Yeah. And like, it takes a person, it takes, it takes some character and some self-control and some ideals to be like, no, no, no, no, I, I, I have an audience. The audience doesn't have me. Like, I say what I think needs to be said, not what's going to do well.

“That's what I try to do. I think that's what you do, too. Yeah. I mean, do you think that,”

because I've always been more of a long game person than a short game, and so I see exactly what

you're talking about all the time, but I would say that the majority of those people don't last very long, eventually it batters out. And, but by being, being true to yourself and not being beholden to an audience or financial incentive or whatever, I mean, you're going to do this. And it's really fucking rollercoaster. Yeah. Yeah. They're outraged about this. And then, oh, no, no, we're not outraged about that anymore. Now we're outraged about this. And no, no,

actually, I never said that. Like, they're, you're, you're surfing, you're surfing the audience.

if, if success is like, I have to tell you what you want to hear,

then like, I work for you. It's boring. I mean, just to sit in here. I mean, I get a lot of people pissed at me right now because I've leaned across the aisle because I like, I like new perspectives.

“That's how shit gets done. You know, and, and, but I just don't, I just don't fucking care.”

You know, it's so light. This is, it's what I'm going to do. I'm just, I'm not going to be beholden to anybody on who I talk to and do not talk to. Yeah. And, and it's boring to me to sit there and talk to somebody that has the exact same opinion to be over and over, just to confirm each other that we're the, we're in the right way of thinking. But I'm curious how you navigate it because I've, you know, when I started this thing, it was just military guys and, you know, intelligence

folks and people that I'd work with in the past and I really just wanted to kind of correct the record and, and, and actually have people that had been in the events that these reporters were

talking about. Yeah. Well, actually, here's what actually happened to the guy that was there,

you know, and, and then we started talking about political issues, issues with kids like lots of different problems with society faces and it would be a discussion inside one of those. Yeah. And then, to make a bigger impact, I actually started going to the, to the lawmakers, you know, to the people in charge, people that can make a difference. And, and then I realized they all just lied to you, you know, and they use the platform to, to advance themselves.

And so now, now I'm extremely particular even at friends that are running for Senate

for Congress, for whatever places in the administration doesn't matter, you know, and I won't have

them on. Interesting because I just, you're just going to tell me what you think I want to hear

“or what I think my audience, what you think my audience wants to hear. Yeah. And then, even if”

you do have great intentions, I've seen it too many times. You're going to get in there. You're not going to make an impact. You're not going to, they're going to own your ass. Yeah. Not going to be put on committees if you go against the grain and you're just going to turn into the same shit that we see every, every single time. Yeah. But if you do hold true to your word, I'll help you with your reelection. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Yeah, I think deciding

deciding what you're going to be a part of and not be a part of to me is like what it's kind of all about. And I think I've been amazed at the degree to which people I know don't think about like, hey, is this a good person, do I agree with them? And it's not to just agree with them. But like, are they a bad actor or, you know, someone at least operating from good faith or whatever, and they just think about like, how is this going to do? You know? And like, to me, success and

a platform comes with responsibilities. Not just like, hey, how do you look yourself in the mirror? But like, like, people are, if they see you have someone on or they see writing about something or talking about something, like, they assume that it's not a cosine, but you're you're you're you're participating, right? You're like, you're there go, oh, they wouldn't have this person on, if they were a psychopath or a lot. Like, people, like, I just think there's a responsibility

that comes from having a platform, or having influence. And to huge responsibility. Yeah. Of people make decisions based off of what's said in this room. Yeah. Like, life-changing decisions. Yeah. Yeah. There's, um, there was, I remember finding, when I was writing Trustman lying, there was some, some, and it's funny, none of this stuff is new. There was this media critic and he was writing and like, late 1800s, early 1900s. And he says, you know, American,

“America is a country ruled by public opinion. That's what a democracy is. And he says,”

"Therefore what determines public opinion rules America." And so the people that own newspapers, yeah, sure. It's a for-profit business, but like, they are responsible for something that in a way affects, like, the whole country. And that there has to be a response, it's saying there has to be a response bill. That these things are kind of public trusts. And look, again, I think you get an

like, this, this isn't something that should be legally police. But like, if the people with the

platforms are not policing themselves, that's a problem, right? Because then basically people

without character, people with, um, agendas, they can take advantage of that, you know, they take advantage of that. And, and we're so consumed in America by, like, our political disagreements that we forget that there's, there's people outside America that are also trying to steer and navigate this discourse, right? And just as, by the way, historically, we have done that in other countries. But like, we seem to think that, like, the only agenda someone could have is, like, left or right,

not, like, Russian, Chinese, Iranian. Like, like, our, our enemies see these gaping holes in our

media system. They see these people who are basically, uh, available to the highest bidder, and they're,

“like, do I want to go to a war with America? Or do I want to make America go to war with itself?”

And I think one of the things I was trying to write in trust me in lying is, is like, hey, look, here's how I'm getting viewed by t-shirts or getting you to follow this brand of this person or whatever, but, like, real bad people can do these same things and, in fact, are doing these same things. And I think that, to me though, that even the craziest part of our system isn't just, like, that bad actors can do, but also, like, the system can manipulate itself, just like, like,

it's so primed for, for, like, going to where the energy the action is that sometimes things that

start as jokes become real things, or things that start as the most hair-brain conspiracy theory that you could imagine, like, becomes real. Like, I live in, in this town called Bastard, Texas.

“And one of the first ones that really caught my eye on this, do you remember the Jade Helm conspiracy?”

No. There was this conspiracy that, like, this is during this 2015, so it's during the Obama administration. They were doing, like, these big training exercises in, like, the south and the southwest, and this conspiracy theory comes out that, like, it's actually this false, it's like, this crazy operation where they're going to, like, I don't know, the federal government was going to, like, occupy the southern states, because it was, like, the, a faux military training exercises

as a pretext to, like, start a civil war. So it was this conspiracy theory that starts online and starts on Facebook. And, and one of the exercises was happening in where I live. And, um, and, like, the governor of Texas ends up sending the national guard to observe the exercises to make sure this didn't happen as if, as if, uh, yeah, that could do anything. Uh, but, but, but, but anyways, the point was, it, it came out in the years after that this was mostly, like, a, a foreign sort of,

propagated, like, that, like, this thing, some crazy person online said this and then, um, injected from a foreign influence. And then, yeah, exactly, they went and they put, they put energy behind, they put, spend behind it and spread in whatever. And so it was like, oh, okay, so again, we're so consumed with, like, what we're doing to each other, that we don't think about the fact that other people have an even bigger incentive to get us really focused on this or that. And so again,

you know, countries that are real close to Russia, like Finland, they spend a lot of time teaching media literacy to their kids, because they know that it's real. And they know that these operations

“and this agenda is right there all the time. And I think we, we live in a bubble,”

because we've so often been the exporter of culture that we don't think about the ways that, you know, different nations, causes, et cetera, have vested interest in directing that culture in certain ways. And so that's one of the things that's talking about in the book too. Yeah, I've, I mean, I've, like, I've changed my tune since the last election. And then, you know, whatever realizes, I think, I think that the, you can have a better,

initiate them with. If you start the conversation properly and plant the seed, then it, it will grow. It will grow into what it needs to be. Yeah. Instead of trying to hit the headhunter in, in poorer ideas into them and, and hold them accountable. Interesting. What do you mean? I mean that, what do I mean? I mean that, I've just, everybody have brought on here that, that, that, that,

can make an immediate impact. There's in a position to make an immediate impact. They always fall

short. Okay. I don't know what they tell you. But what I have noticed is the things that, that, that, just in my own personal experience with some of the discussions that I've had in here, the biggest impact that we've made is by starting a conversation and watching the conversation grow through the, through regular people through the population, not from getting direct to a president of congressmen of senator or CEO of a company, somebody that owns an nonprofit,

whatever, it's, it's the conversation that happens that, that engages the population as a much, much bigger impact than going directly to the decision maker. Have you heard that expression that politics is downstream from culture? No. I think that's sort of what you're saying is like,

“what matters is the consensus or the idea, like the, the energy divide is more important than,”

like, a single decision maker, which is, by the way, our whole system, like, we have a decentralized system. So, we're decision making is decentralized and, and widespread because the founders were so concerned about sort of man on horseback. Yeah. And, and so there really isn't one singular

person who can make a difference. Now, the problem is that is also allowed a lot of people who are

in positions of power to advocate their responsibility to make a difference. Right? Like, everyone, everyone is trying to save their jobs for some point in the future when they'll be the decision maker, you know? And, like, look, you do need those people, but chances are you're not that person. Yeah. Like chances are you should do the right thing right now. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting. I think of what do you think of this? I think it's addiction to power, but then looking at it

from the outset, and it does appear that they have a lot of power, but then when you see it, and you're like, you're, you're fucking completely powerless because you're not saying what needs to be said,

“even though you know exactly what the fuck you need to do, because you want to hang on to”

the fake power that you think you have, but you're actually powerless because you're not saying what you know needs to be said, because you know you won't have that position anymore when that position represents your power, your relevance and society. I think the difference here, there's, there's power in their status, right? And so they don't exercise the power because they want to keep the status. Like, I mean, look, Thomas Massey is not going to be a congressman

much longer. The irony is when you meet a lot of these politicians, privately, not only will they tell you a bunch of things that they won't say in public, but they will also tell you how much they don't like their job. Like, they fucking hate it. Like, it's a miserable job. They don't like their colleagues. They think there's a lot of, you know, performance, and they have to spend all this time fundraiser. They don't like the job. And yet, when it comes down to these votes that seem to me to be very clearly

conscious based or very stark moral choices, they're like, well, I got to do what I know is wrong to keep this job that I don't fucking like. I'm like, I don't get it at all. It doesn't make

any sense to me, right? But the problem is, I remember I was sitting in the Senate dining room,

talking to Senator. And, and I was saying, like, hey, why don't you guys, you know,

“you and I probably have very different politics? But I was like, why don't you know this Trump thing?”

It's crazy. Like, what are we doing here? And, um, I was like, why don't you speak out about it, you know? And, um, and he goes, see that guy over there? And he's like, I think, yeah, and he's like, that guy was going to be head of the CIA. And he's, and I go, okay, and he's like, and then, uh, I can probably say to him, he was. He said that that the White House was like a dull daycare over there. I think it was Senator Gorker. And he's like, he's not even going to be a Senator anymore.

and he made a comment. And, uh, it's not happening anymore. And the guy was basically saying, like,

“that's, that's why. And he was laying it out for like, like, it's, it's just, it is crazy,”

because like me as a citizen, I'm like, you're one of the, uh, you know,

hundred most powerful people in the world. And that's not how they see themselves. And so,

I don't know. Why would you want, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I write about this. I, I, I, I, I, this book I encourage, I, I talked about, I was once, when I was in America, but I was once asked to do this thing that was profoundly wrong in a moral. And, um, and, uh, I didn't do it, but I thought about doing it. And I struggled with doing it, uh, and, and, and the reason that I didn't, like, challenge my boss about it was that I didn't want to get

fired, right? Now, in retrospect, why would I want to keep a job that, speaking up about something

“that was wrong would get you fired from? That's crazy. It doesn't make any sense. But this is,”

these are the equations that we make in our heads. But why would you want to work in an

administration where even the slightest criticism gets you on the shit list? It's not going to be a good job. This, this job that you dreamed of of having your whole life, it, it's not what you think it is, right? Like, they just showed you. It's not what you think it is. But, um, we rationalize where everybody, everybody is saving themselves for this player calling this higher call. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, you know, Adam Kinziger, I remember he was saying he felt like a lot of,

of soccer and him ones. And he was telling me that he feels, he feels like, uh, members of Congress tell themselves there's a super Congress. And their job is like the super Congress will take care of it. And it's like, no, no, you were elected to take care of this. This is what we set you to Washington. We didn't send you there to be in the job for as long as you could have it. We set you there to represent our interests and to solve the problems of, uh, governance. Right?

That's the fucking job. And you think your job is to continue to be Congressmen or Congresswoman. And, um, you're so afraid of being the former senator from Massachusetts or the former

“Congresswoman from California that you aren't making the tough decisions that you, you have to,”

you have to make. And look, one of the things I've been trying to remind myself of is like, it's very easy as citizens to be like, why aren't these people risking their jobs to do what is right? And why aren't they putting themselves out there? And then it's like you and you, I mean, like the person listening, you are working a job you fucking hate. And, uh, you know you could be doing something different or better. You've worked, you're working in an industry that you know is fucked up,

like blah, blah, blah. What was the last risk you took like that? Like it's, you know what I mean? It's very, it's very easy to evaluate the moral choices and the complicity and the contradictions in other people. Um, and of course, as citizens are job to do that and to throw those people out, that's that you cannot, we cannot keep this republic as Benjamin Franklin said if we don't do that. However, to me, the main, in the main purpose of looking at this, the cowardice and the contradictions

and the shamelessness and the sort of petty turf wars is, is it, it should, it should be a mirror reflected back at ourselves and go, why could be doing more? Like, I could be, I tell my kids to follow their dreams and then I'm like, not doing it, you know? And so I, I don't know, I just think it's really easy to kind of just point this like judgment lens at Washington or in the state house or whatever. But ultimately, you got to point it out yourself. Yeah, I would, it's interesting you bring that up

because I wanted to talk to you about hypocrisy being a hypocrite. I'm, I'm sure we all are, I mean, I'm real quick to point it out and everybody else, but I do do a lot of self-reflection

and I talked to a lot of, you know, how can I improve what, I'm always thinking about that,

whether it's being a dad, being a businessman, being a pot, whatever it is, you know? And I can't find the, I can't find my own hypocrisy. Does that make sense? I don't know what it is. I don't know.

But, but I don't, I can't see it in myself. A lot of times I can't see it in myself, right? Yeah,

now. No, no, I mean, look, this is why this is why a company's going to have a board of directors.

“This is why a president is supposed to have a cabinet. I think the most alarming thing about”

where we are politically right now is that not only are a lot of the governmental checks and balances, not there, but a lot of the, a lot of the cultural checks and balances aren't there. Like, the press is supposed to be hostile to power and the cabinet is, like, the, the founders set up a system where ambition was supposed to be a check against ambition, right? The, Congress was supposed to zealously enforce its prerogatives, like, part of being a senator, like,

part of the perk of being a senator and having a six year term, whereas the president, as a four year term, is your supposed to be able to go like this to the president when the president is wrong, right? Like, Congress has war-making powers, not the president, but if Congress decides that they don't want to enforce that power, then the president has that power, right? And you know, if we have a partisan news environment where the left wing media slobbers all over

a left wing president and the right wing media slobbers all over the right wing president and then if the president has a cabinet and has been allowed to confirm a cabinet of people who are

dependent on him and fully buy in on him, then the president's never going to hear no and never

going to hear, that's a dumb-fucking idea, like, what about this, what about that? And so, I mean, we know historically what happens when people in positions of power are not subject to any checks and balances and when their information diet is degraded? Like, one of the oldest stories that we have about this is that the emperor has no clothes, right? And whenever one says, hey, sir, we love your new outfit and he's walking around naked, that there was a, there was a reason,

there's a moral to that story. And it's funny, actually, Mark's really the reason Mark's really becomes emperor is actually like two thousand years earlier in illustration of that story. So the hatred and does not have a son is the emperor of Rome, it doesn't have a son. So he's to choose his successor and there's this kid, he's a member of a sort of prestigious Roman family who somehow he meets, that kid is Mark's really is. And for some reason, Mark's really says the young kid

just doesn't seem to be intimidated by the emperor at all and he tells them the truth. And you can imagine that the emperor of Rome does not hear the truth very often. It's actually a famous story about Hadrian where Hadrian is in an argument with one of his advisors, who's a philosopher. And it's like, we don't know exactly what it was about, but it was something

“where it was like, it's like an objective, you know. Anyways, the philosopher ends up saying, you know what?”

Sir, you're right. I was wrong, you're right. And later one of his friends comes up to him and he says, you know, why did you tell the emperor? He was right. Like the math equation is very clear. He's wrong. And the philosopher looks in and he says, ah, this is what you don't understand.

The man who controls 50 legions is always correct, right? Like people don't tell powerful people

the truth because they are afraid of powerful people, right? And Mark's really supposedly tells the emperor Hadrian the truth. And his nickname is verismus, like the truest one, part of what makes Hadrian ultimately select Mark's realises that he is like the boy in the story, the emperor has no clothes, who actually says to the emperor, sir, you're naked. What are you talking about? Like I don't care what these people said, you know, I mean, fucking clothes on,

“you got con, right? And so you, as you become powerful and important and as you, this is why”

revenge is bad. When you get a reputation for punishing your enemies or punishing your perceived enemies, critics, it degrades your picture of the world because you've just sent a message to

what they don't want to hear. Like do you think there were many advisors who told Putin that

“invading Ukraine would be a bad idea. Like do you think anyone laid out like this is how bad it could”

go? No. No, because you don't want to end up fucking in a plane crash, right? Or like you don't want to fall out of fourth story window. And so oftentimes you think you want control, you think you want people on board, you think you want true believers, and you don't. Like the antagonistic hostile, like the system of government we have is set up there for a reason, even the so-called deep state is also there for like you want career governmental employees who are not necessarily

political. I mean, it could make me problems with it, too. I'm not, you know, overstated, but like you want a bureaucracy that doesn't want to swing too far in one direction or the other direction. You want Congress to be oppositional. You want your cabinet to have their own political ambitions. Like Lincoln staffs his cabinet with his political rivals because he wants, he knows that what he has to do is extremely difficult. And if he only has people telling

him what he wants to hear, he will not actually be able to do it. And so that to me is what alarms me about where we are. I'm just, you know, you brought up an interesting point about, I mean, where do you draw the line between sending a message, maybe now revenge or vengeance,

but sending a message, because I've done this where I will never initiate, I shouldn't say never.

I will not initiate arguments, blast people, get in fights on the internet. I just think the shit's stupid, and it's a waste of time, and it causes a lot of stress. But there have been times where powerful people come after me. And then I think it is, I think it, from a variety of reasons,

“I think it's important to stand up into engage. One, to set an example to anybody else out there”

that's planning on coming after me. If you do come after me, this is what the fuck's going to happen. If you back me into a corner, I think it also gives other people courage. I just want through one of these at the beginning of the year, a congressman went after me and I went right back to Adam, and now he's no longer in fucking Congress. But I did that because I started this in my attic. I'm still coming to the full realization of the magnitude of the

shit that can come out of here, because I still consider myself that guy in the attic that was doing this with my wife, it's a small thing. And so I'm kind of in the middle of that makes sense. But I also did that because I wanted to show people like you don't have to get fucking pushed around by these people, man. They're going to come after you, and it is scary to have somebody that high up in government coming after you. But they don't have as much power as you think

they do. And I just prove that. And at the same time, I don't want to, for my immediate team, like I ask anybody that's been here for a little bit, especially the guys that have been here

from the beginning, which is only a handful of them. I'm always asked them, like, what do you think

of this? Am I off on this? And I think they tell me, especially my top two guys, tell me, they tell me. But I don't want to, do you see what I'm getting at? Absolutely. I think you said, look, sometimes you got to establish some deterrence, or you get

“you get pushed around. I think that's important. But yeah, I do think what we're talking about”

culturally is the problem. Like we want people to stand up, we want people to do the right thing. And then what examples do they have of that happening? And I think we're in like almost like a cultural death spiral of a lack of those examples. And so I do think it's important, but making a martyr of yourself is usually not a great thing to do. But like, the idea that like there are more people out there that feel this way than people think is really

okay with this. Like, this is just, this is just what we have to put up with. And I think it's

important. Like acts of courage. Like cowardice is contagious and so is courage. Moral courage and physical courage. Like if you see someone else do it, it changes your sense of what's possible. And what is sort of the cultural expectation. And I think when I say we're in a death spiral, it's like everyone is saving themselves for some crisis. And it's like, do this is the crisis. That's the man. How much worse are you expecting it to get? And and look like the

stoics are not exempt from this. As I said, a Seneca works for Neuro. Now, Seneca probably told himself, he was the adult in the room that he was making a Neuro less bad and that he prevented Neuro from doing a lot of bad stuff. And he almost certainly did. But as a result, he also allowed Neuro to do a lot of bad stuff. And these are not easy Moral choices. And the only reason I think like 2000 years later, it becomes a little clearer, right? But in the moment they're they're vexing

emotional and moral choices. And when you're asking someone to choose, hey, you're going to lose your job over this, you're going to be attacked. Maybe your family will be threatened. These are, there's a lot to ask of people. I get that. But chances are, when you look back, you're going to wish you did more. You're going to wish you said more. You're going to wish you, you're not going

“to be like, I'm so glad I waited. And because here's the thing about waiting, is that you can always”

tell yourself that this isn't the right time that like again, you know, I need to be, I need to stay in the room until the real crisis happens. And then, and what you've actually done is over and over and over again, built the habit of not doing the thing, right? And, and, and the idea that suddenly

when you're at the second to the top level, that's when you're going to gamble at all and do the

heart thing. You have to build it as a hat. Like Aristotle said it was wrong to think of for you as this thing that you have or don't have. Like that people are born courageous or born generous or simply are, you know, smart or, you know, any of the things that we hold up is good. He's like, no, no, no, it's a verb, not a noun. It's a thing you are doing or not doing. Like courage is a muscle you're exercising, like speaking truth to power is a muscle you're exercising. It's a thing

“you are doing, not a thing you are or aren't. And so the good news about that is like if you want to be”

generous, you want to be a generous person, you can start right now, like start tipping bigger, like tie the percentage of your salary, right? You can start doing that right now. That's the good news. The bad news is, if you are not doing it, you are building the habit and the muscle of not being that person. And it becomes harder and harder to break as the stakes get higher and higher. It's a damn good point. Ryan, let's take a quick break. All right.

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“Welcome to Hollywood versus reality. They do it, right?”

What does he do in the movies? Tell me if I'm doing this wrong because I don't watch anything. Little fleck like that, right? Seems pretty cool. It is pretty cool. Got a silencer. In another lifetime, I did gun reviews for a living. The proprietary magazine is supposed to be the best engineering in the world. When that breaks, you're... And now we're bringing them back. It does look pretty cool. I got it, I got it, and that's that.

All right, Ryan, we're back from the break. I want to dive into Ego. Okay. Ego is the enemy. We're a whole book on this. Where do we start? I mean, is there anyone that thinks Ego is good? Like, is there anyone who's like, we need some bigger Ego's? I don't think so. I like to think of Ego as being the thing that gets between you and whatever it is that you want to do. So in a way, I'm not saying, like,

"Oh, be sort of humble so low to the ground. You don't want anything. You don't try to do anything." Like, I actually think Ego is the enemy of the ambition that you have. Like, whatever you're trying to do, like, what you need is a sense of reality. You need self-awareness. You need sense of connection. You need truth. Like, the ingredients to doing what you want to do are for the most part, not delusioned in grandiosity and selfishness. Like, it's the opposite of that.

So when I say Ego is the enemy, I'm not saying, like, think your piece of shit. I'm saying, just don't think your God's gift is humanity. Like, confidence to me is somewhere in the middle between those two extremes. And yeah, chances are Ego is causing the problems, not solving the problems. And personally, or in your organization. How do you keep yours in check a big Europe and extremely successful guy? Well, I mean, a lot of people that find success and then

their Ego just fucking explodes. Yeah, I look, the first and foremost, admitting that you have one

and that it is a problem is like a critical step. Like, like, if I'm sitting here going like,

let me tell you how to conquer Ego because I don't have one, like, be real suspicious because, you know, I mean, my ego causes problems from me all the time. It's something I try to work on, and I'd be aware of. And knowing that yeah, like success inflates the Ego, success, it dodges inflates the Ego, but it enables people around you to inflate the Ego. Right? Like,

“in a way, you need to be more self-critical and aware, the more successful you are,”

for the reason we're just talking about, which is the air is thinner, and you get less, not only do you get less feedback, but you've got this really important piece of feedback that can be really misleading, which is like, you did something that wasn't supposed to be possible. You didn't listen to the critics and doubters and haters. And so, do you take from that that you know better than everyone else? Right? Like, this happens to a lot of entrepreneurs. Like, everyone said

it was a bad idea. Everyone said it didn't work. How do you know when to listen in the future? Like,

like, when Elon Musk started SpaceX, which was his second company with the money that he made

from his first company. Like, his friends had like a literal intervention. Like, you cannot do this. This is a bad, bad idea. You will lose everything. I mean, it's going to go public and be a

“multi trillion dollar company. Right? So, like, they were wrong. So, how does he now?”

And by the way, this is also true for Tesla. That was supposedly a bad idea. Right? Like, how does he, I think this is again a sort of larger life story that should help us understand this in our own lives? Like, how does he know in future instances not to just listen to himself? Right? And so, you know, he's done some real dumb stuff too. And that's what ego does. Is that sense of,

trusting your gut instinct. Yeah. Obviously, Elon trust has got to say to what it came to

space. I don't know. It was, it is wildly successful. Maybe the biggest company in the world. Yeah. And, you know, and so, how do you differentiate what to take in from external influences and what gut instincts to trust? Well, to me, it comes down to like the story you tell yourself. Right? So, like, like, when I went to my publisher and I was like, hey, I want to write a book about stoic philosophy. They were not like, chaching. You know, like, they were like, what? You know,

that sounds like a horrible idea. But literally they were like, and I said this before, but I took, I took less than half. For the book that became the obstacles away, I took less than half

what I got for a trust family line. So, like, they thought it was going to be less than 50 percent.

“Wow. That's successful. That's successful. So, what's the lesson that I take from that?”

Like, I get it. I mean, it ended up selling millions of copies and being this big thing. Like, do I take from that, like, those fucking idiots at my publisher don't know shit. Right? Do I take from that, like, I'm a genius that I can see around corners that I, that, like, I know what the people want. Or do I take from this, like, hey, I have what I thought was a pretty good idea. And, um, I could see how it wasn't, uh, obvious home run to some other people. And the reason it succeeded

is because of, you know, uh, I, I did the work. I was willing to roll the dice anyway. And I also, because, like, the downsides of being wrong were not that high either, right? Like, I took a risk and it paid off. It wasn't a certainty that I knew it's a took a risk and it paid off. So, do I? So, again, you could take, and we have a thousand examples of this. But like, you could take from this, hey, I'm a genius. I know better. That's, that's ego. Or you can go, hey, I took a risk and it paid off.

That's, to me, confidence with some self-awareness in there. And so, whatever store you tell yourself about why you are, where you are, it, uh, it doesn't change what happened. Like, the event doesn't know that you're telling a story about it. But it does change how you make future decisions. Right? Like, um, if you feel like you're annoying to it, if you feel like the rules don't apply, if you feel like you can defy gravity, you know, all these things make it really likely that

in the future you're going to overreach. And that tends to be what successful people do, right?

“They tend to overreach. And so, that's, that's what I think you want to take from,”

from like, trust your gut, but trust the right part about it, not the delusional part of it. Do you feel that you have ever overreached? Yeah, I mean, I, I tried to think mostly back around the calls that I made where I was super wrong. Like, I don't think about the fights I had with my publisher where I ended up being right. I think about the times where I insisted on getting my way and in retrospect, they had a point. You know, I try to think about the, uh, the,

times where, you know, I didn't listen to the feedback. Um, and I would have saved myself a painful bump on the head had, had I done so. And I think that's healthy. I mean, like, again, like, if you focus on all the things you know, you don't get any better. If you focus on what you don't know, you can get better. If you focus on where you fell short, you can make improvements. And if you focus on what you got right, you're just tricking yourself off. How about humility? I mean, I think

humility is important. To me, confidence is confidence is in awareness of strength and in awareness

“of weakness. Like, to me, the story of David and the life is at its core about the power of both”

those things, right? David doesn't think, oh, I'm anointed by God. Therefore, I, of course, I can defeat Goliath, right? If, if, if he knew that he was preordained to win, he would have just, you know, rushed, he'dlessly into battle and, uh, like, God take care of it, right? Like,

the story, to me, the, the critical part in the story of David and Goliath is when David tries on

this isn't going to work. He's like, as a shepherd, he's just not able to operate as a traditional

warrior, and that's when he turns to the sling. Right? The sling is, hey, he's bigger than me. He's stronger than me. He's better trained than me. I don't have these tools in my toolkit, but I do have this thing, right? And so humility to me is a key element in matching what, what, whatever battle, figurative, and literal is about, which is about matching strength against weakness. Like, strength against strength is stupid. It, it, it usually creates two losers, even if there's

one winner, right? Like, the, what a great general does, what a great athlete does, what a great entrepreneur does, is match strength against weakness. Like, and, and by the way, also protects hides your own weakness, right? Because that's where you don't want their strength to go against yours. So, so to me, this humility is really important, like knowing what you're not that good at,

“what you need to get better at, is, yeah, it's like a big part of it. How do you give yourself”

humble? You know, the kids help, spouse helps, trying to do hardship helps. Like, if you are

only doing what you're really comfortable with, and you're never in situations that you're

outmatched, that you're, um, that you're out of your depth in, you lose that feeling of like, oh shit, I gotta figure this out. And so, like, when I take on projects, one of the things I think about is like, is this something I've done before? And if, if it's something I've done before, like, it's not that interesting to me. And if it's something where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have to figure out a lot of different skills to be able to do this. And this can be, I don't mean, like,

you're reinventing the wheel every time. Like, I just mean, like, what's the element of your game that you're working on? Like, if you go into the offseason, and you're like, I want to practice getting better at what I'm really good at. I think that that is, you know, not just, not just the gains are going to be less than exciting, but like, it's a sort of a confirmation of you go. But if you're like, hey, and I know what I don't, what I'm not good at is this. What I could

“get better at is this. And that's what you're going to spend your time on. To me, that's, that helps”

with humility because you're waking up every day, and it's fucking hard and sucks. And it's just, it's, you can't, you can't feel, you can't feel great about how you're doing when you're getting your ass kicked. And so how are you seeking out those experiences? I think that's really important. What about with just amongst people? I've been somebody as successful as yourself. Reach millions of people with your books. Lots of people seek you out. They want to talk to you. They want to

meet you. They want to get on an autograph. They want to pick your brain. They want to, they just want to be around. Yeah. You know, and that can really inflate your ego. So how do you navigate that? So how do you navigate that around your kids? Yeah, it is like when you get recognized around your kids, it's a weird, it's a weird thing. My kids are like, they roll their eyes. And they, they, we were in Greece this summer and they started playing this game where they, they, they wanted

to see if they would see more stray cats than I would get recognized. And the fact that they saw like hundreds of more stray cats than I got recognized was like a thing they were just constantly shoving

“in my face. I love, I love. And you know, so yeah, there is, there is that. I think anything”

you do in public that has fans or, you know, sort of recognition attached to it can can sort of put you up. I have the benefit in what I do and that it's not mine. Like, I write about an ancient philosophy that has been around for 2,500 years. Like, the reason the book's work

is 90 percent of philosophy and 10 percent me. And I try to remind myself of that fact. Like,

even good at it. Like, my success in writing about stoicism is very different than my

“individual journey through stoic philosophy as a human being. And I try to remind myself that,”

do you consider yourself a stoic? Yeah, I mean, if this is the philosophy that I am interested in that I am trying to apply in my life, do I call myself a stoic? I mean, I would say I am an aspiring stoic. Like, I would certainly not claim to have attained any kind of enlightenment or mastery of the stuff. Like, in fact, the reason that I'm so driven to write about it and talk about it is because it's like, it's really hard. And I really struggle with it. So I try to remind myself that, like,

like, when someone someone comes to me and says, like, hey, your books change my life, they help, you know,

what they say stoicism change in their life. It got me through cancer, whatever it is. I go, yeah, it worked for me too. Like, like, we're on the same journey. Like, what it's, what, what, what they think is as, as my books is really, like, the philosophy that I am also a student of. If that makes sense, it does like so. But it's like, you know, when, um, when the interview athletes, like, in the, in the locker room after, like, a big game, and they're like, you know,

“I'll go away to God. I think they mean that. And I think that's important. I also think that's like,”

a really important professional adaptation. Like, if, if LeBron James or Kobe Bryant or or whoever is like, fuck yeah, that was all fucking me, you know, like, I'm the greatest, that's bad. Like, that's bad for future performance. It's better, it's better to credit. And I don't just mean, like, from a public relations standpoint. Like, you have to mean it. Like, if this false modesty, it's a, it's, you might as well just own it.

But if you're like, no, this was the team, this was the training. This is the tradition. Like, you are, you are, that is, that is the, that is the right and the healthy way to think about it. First off, because it's true. And second, because it's not good for you to put that on and credit yourself for things that are wise and not good. Well, I think, as I said, first of it's not, it's not good because it's not true, right? Like, everything is a team sport,

right? And second, because it breeds complacency and entitlement. And if it, if it's not a little scary to you and it's not a little hard and you're not, uh, you're not questioning your ability to do it. You're probably going in the opposite direction. Like, you're, you're, you're, um,

it should be getting, it should always stay challenging and hard or, or else. It's like,

“you're lifting weights when it becomes easy. You grew, you grew the muscles and you're, you need to crank the”

thing up. Mm-hmm. Makes sense of, let's move into, how do I wear this? People that have experienced death or have been close to death or, I guess, not experienced death, but the, the been around death, yeah, people that have killed people who have seen war, people that have been around death a lot. And, and, kind of, knowing when to act, when to let things go, that kind of stuff. I mean, and you have a lot to say on that. I mean, I'd be, I'd be curious, your opinion. I mean, when, when you experience

how fragile life is, does it turn down the volume on stuff for you? For a little bit. Yeah, then it creeps back. And then it creeps back. Yeah. I liked everything. I was reading and then I did. I compared it to myself. And I was like, you know, a lot of the stuff bleeds back. Yeah. And then, and then you get, you know, in my life journey, in my previous life, it was, you know, there was constant up, you're humbled again. Yeah. You're humbled again. Uh, you're humbled again.

Somebody died. Somebody died. We killed somebody. Somebody, somebody, you know, in, in, so there's that constant reminder. And you live at that. Yeah. Pretty regularly. Then I left. And I'm not around it anymore. And things that maybe don't matter or shouldn't matter. They creep back in. And they

me, and it's just, I'm just being honest. Yeah. I can creep back in and it creeps back in faster than

you would think. Yeah. A friend of mine is in martial arts was telling me that it's like sweep in the floor. You don't sweep at once and it's clean forever. It's a constant process of sweeping. And I think

“he goes that way. And I think, uh, like the urgency of life is another one. Like you go to the doctor”

and they're like, oh, check that out. There's that moment where you're like, oh, shit. Is this it? You know, is this to just get serious or, you know, you're talking to a friend on Friday. And then you find out over the weekend they died. Or, um, you know, natural disaster, you know,

whatever, anything that happens in, in suddenly you're like, oh, I forgot. We're mortal. Yeah.

Um, that's, this, the stoic practice is momentum more. Like, remember you are mortal. Um, but it, it has to be an active meditation because like, we all know objectively that we're all going to die. Like every, every, every person who's ever lived has, has, has eventually died. Um, there's, there's no way out of life. And, um, we know that, although on average, you know, this is about how long you have. Um, people died before, they should all, all the time. The health these people in the

world dropped out of a heart attack, the greatest people in the world get, you know, murdered for the money and their wallet. Obviously, wars and natural disasters, um, it happens. But, you know, then you get a little soft, a little entitled. You drift away from that urgency. And, and so yeah, to me, it's like an, it's an active process of, um, reminding yourself that, yeah, tomorrow is, is not

certain, um, the future is, is not yours. One of the, I think the most powerful ideas from the

stoics is comes from Seneca. You know, he says, it's wrong to think of death as something that happens in the future. Like, that death is something we're moving towards. He says actually, death is behind us. He says, like, um, the time that passes belongs to death. So instead of thinking, like, you live 80 years, he says, like, you've died however many years you're currently old. So like, like, I'm going to, I turn, uh, 38 next, 38, no, 39 next month, I don't remember. Um,

but anyways, like, my birthday, I should look back and go, this is how many years I have died. What do I have to show for that? Not how many years do I have left? But what if I, what do I have to show for the time? Because, because how we spend our time, is how we spend our life, right? And, and so the idea of going, like, hey, oh, you know, I'm, I don't like this, but I'm going to do it until my kids grow up, or I'm going to do it, you know, for a couple more years,

I'm going to do it till things settle down. Like, you know, we, we tell ourselves, like,

“we make these assumptions about the future. And really, the only thing that's certain is,”

is now the thing you're, you're paying for with your life right now. And so that, I do try to remind myself of that, that like, um, we don't, the choices we're making about our time right now are the choices that matter. The idea of working something you don't like, deferring something you don't like, because what you really want to do is play golf in your 70s is, uh, is, is naive and entitled. And so, by the way, is just the basic procrastination of,

like, you know what, I think I'm going to, uh, I'm going to start that project next week. Like, if you're going to do it, you should do it, and you should start right now. That to me is the, what you take out of the momentum, or you practice. Yeah, I'll really struggle with this, and to end in just, in my personal experience every time that I, who've been around death, thought I was going to die, uh, there's only one thing that goes through your mind, and that is,

that's your family. Mm-hmm. That's it. Let's deal. It's not all your shit. Yeah. It's not all your accomplishments. It's not what you've done at work. It's not any of that. It's not a much-fucking

“money. The only thing is like, shit, you know, who's going to watch out for my family? Yeah,”

what I'm out of here, and, uh, and then, you know, that creates the fight, you know, to stay alive. But what you're, what you're talking about, and I still struggle with this, no matter how many times

that constant reminder, like none of the shit matters. Yeah, deal with in the matters, and my head is

“my family. Mm-hmm. And, but then there's the preparation, you know, I have to hit this financial”

benchmark. I have to hit this. I have to hit all these accomplishments, or goals, or whatever it may be to make the future of my life, my wife's life, my kids' life, hopefully easier in the future, which takes away from living in the now, because it's all planning, right? We've been more insidious. Like, at some point, you would give literally all of it back for five more minutes of time with them, right? And then here you are, fucking doom scrolling on Twitter, with the five

minutes that you have for sure right now. Like, you, you would, you would, you're going to look

back and wish that you could have more of this, and what are you doing with it right now? You're

“wasting it. And that, that's a me is what I take from it, is like, I have the thing that in the future”

will be priceless and unattainable, and I'm so frivolous with it. And I say yes to things, because I don't want to be rude to someone, I get distracted because something's happening in the world. I, you know, I get overwhelmed, and I'm like, I'm, I'm going to take a break, you know, like, like, and, and you experience it in a little, like, already, like, if you're the little kids, you're just like, dude, like, a year ago, like, that's gone, right? Like, these periods are so

fleeting and so short. And in the moment you want it, you want it like the next thing, you want to get out of it. I can't wait till they walk. I can't wait till they, you know, talk. I can't wait till they dry, whatever it is. And then actually when those moments come, all you wish for is more of what you wish to weigh in the moment, because you were entitled, they're short tempered or frustrated or whatever. Here at Sean Ryan Show, research is a big part of everything we do.

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“Claude.ai/saurus. How do you reset? Do you find yourself going down those rabbit holes too?”

Yeah. Of course. The good news about the present moment is that you're always getting another

one until the moment that you don't. To me, how quickly can you get throw in the phone down? I'm stopping right now. Tomorrow I'll do better, but I'm stopping right now. How fast can you get back to center? It's to me like the key skill both as a parent and as a person in this crazy modern world. But, you know, today was rough. How do you do better tomorrow? How do you stop whatever direction you're going and you know you shouldn't be going in? How quickly you can do that?

What are your indications? Did they come from you? Did they come from your wife or kids? Yeah. I mean, I feel like parenting is a lot of after they go to bed. You're like, "What are we doing? Why did it go this way?" You know, it's that sort of debrief at night.

It's usually like, "Why did we try to squeeze one more thing in?" You know? Well, why did I remember I was put my sundown for bed the other night, and, you know, first I've can have a little more iPad time, then I got to brush my teeth. Oh no, now I got to go to the bathroom again or oh no, and water, oh I'm hungry even though I had dinner twice. You know, all the stuff that is making up for, you know, not going to bed. And then I finally said, "Okay, if you're

going in this room, I'm like, all right, let's get in bed." And he's like, "No, I'm sleeping on the floor." And I go, "What?" You know what I sleep on the floor? Like, and then we just got in this huge,

you know what I mean? You never said I couldn't sleep on the floor. We're going to this whole

fucking argument about why couldn't sleep on the floor. And then I was finally like, I was like, "Why do I have an opinion about this?" You know? Like, sleep on the floor, I don't care. I realized like, I think in the moment, it was like, "I didn't want to miss sleep on the floor because here's what I knew would happen." He would sleep on the floor until like the middle of the night and then wake up and then you come in our room, you know, and it's like, "I want to sleep."

Right? Like, I was extrapolating what this means with, you know, like, instead of like going like, I don't care where you fall asleep. Uh, I was thinking about what it means if you sleep here or

there, right? And so anyways, um, finally, I'm like, I just realized that gotten down that I was in

a battle of wills that like, I had the power to end right then by saying sleep wherever you want,

“you know? If you want to sleep on this teddy bear on the floor, like, not yourself out. So anyways,”

he lays down and just when I think he's fall asleep, I go to leave. He goes, "I'm ready to sleep my bed now." And I go, "All right, let's go." And he walks into fall asleep and it's bed. And it was such an illustrative one for me because it was like, I know when it started, it started when we walked into his room and he said, "I want to sleep on the floor," and I said, "No." And then it ended with him realizing that he didn't want to sleep on the floor and he'd rather sleep in his bed.

And that whole argument, you know, where I argued one thing and then I realized I was wrong and then I

changed quite like that whole thing in the middle. It just didn't fucking do to happen. You know, like the whole, like, it would have worked itself out. Had I been a little more go with the flow

“about something. And I think what I took from that, what I, as a parent, is it's like,”

I need to be more in the, like, does this thing actually matter? Like, why am I thinking that this matters? And I'm thinking that it matters because I'm thinking about what it means as opposed to that it means nothing, right? And that I could save us both a lot, like, I could save us both a lot of trouble. And in fact, like, not only did it work itself out, but it worked itself out, except we also had a big argument in the middle, which has a, has a, has a cost to it, right?

And so, oh, like, I'm not saying you do everything your kids want and you let, you know, it's, you've got King Baby walking around. But most of the conflict, like, when I think about the things I had conflict with with my parents, how many of those in retrospect were significant in any way, you know, and how many of those things are they glad that they went to the mattress a thought? And, and I, I, I, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get better at that. You're saying pick your battles.

Totally. And, and, and by pick your battles, I mean, avoid 99.9% of the battles because they don't fucking matter. So, how do you guide of that? I mean, now we're moving into fatherhoods. Yeah.

“I'm just, how do you guide them without confrontation, without discipline, disciplining them?”

Yeah. I mean, yeah, of course, that's the challenge. It's like, you're not creating this fantasy world where they get to do whatever they want, whenever they want it, but at the same time, like, like, again, why do I care whether you sleep on the floor or they're bad? There's no lesson in here. What, what they're actually is, is me wondering about the consequences of this for me, and to my desire for control, right? Like, you want to do this, and I want you to do this,

and why am I going to let a six-year-old win? You know, like, most, so like, in a way, you think, like, oh, I'm giving them discipline. I'm giving them structures very helpful. Actually, you're just showing them, like, authority is arbitrary and pointless, and, you know, should be

I'm saying this all as someone who constantly struggles with this, so I'm not saying this is

something that I'm good at, precisely the opposite, but, I mean, look, you teach your kids by example, and you teach your, you teach your kids often in the moments when they are open to being taught, because they've experienced some kind of consequence, or for a choice, or they have, there is an opening because of something that's happened for you to actually insert that thing,

“that bit of wisdom or experience or less than or whatever. That's kind of how I think about it.”

Okay. I mean, you were able to hold book on Stoke Fatherhood, correct? Well, I did a book, I did a book called The Daily Dad, which is just sort of, yeah, classical or ancient lessons, like one, one a day. I think the problem with parenting books is like, you're supposed to read this book, and then just be good. Like, like, I'm supposed to read about when my kid is 13 months, I'm reading about how you teach things to a 13-year-old. Like,

I'm not going to remember any of this. So the idea of The Daily Dad is it's an email to the The Daily Dad email is just one thought a day. It's, I think, to me, parenting is like a series of values and lessons that you've got to be reminded of over and over and over and over again,

and that's kind of what I've tried to do with it. What are some of the most important ones that

“took out to you? Yeah, I think the, the most important one I think is just how fast this is all going,”

and that you, uh, every time I cut my kids fingernails or take them to get a haircut, I go like, that's that much life right there. That's that much of the brief window that they live in my house, right? That, uh, that we get to do things together. And I try to be always aware. Just as like the, like, momentum worry is about your own mortality, realizing that like, I don't have a two-year-old anymore. My three-year-old is dead and gone. My four-year-old is dead and gone. Like,

you are cycling through those ages and they will never be that thing again. To me, that's like one of the ultimate parenting lesson. The other one, uh, my wife and I were related to that was like, we were like, do we want it? There was like some kids' concerts, something we were thinking about going. And we were like, "Oh, we got to get in the car. It's like a 30-minute drive. Are they going to appreciate it?" And it was just like, "How many more times are they going to want to do this?"

You know? Um, probably not that many more. Like at some point there's the last time. And are we going to be glad that we stayed at home and didn't do the thing or we're going to be glad that we did the thing? So realizing that you only get so many shots of these things, I think it's a big one. That, uh, you are the voice that's going to be in their head. And what is that voice like? Is it a negative voice as a positive voice? Bruce Springsteen talked about how, um,

were going to be either ancestors or ghosts to our children, like an ancestor guides and a ghost

haunts. And what, what kind of example are you going to shake your head? I never thought of it

like a, and it's not just like what you say, but also like, is dad working on a shit? Is mom working on her shit? Or are they just foisting that stuff on you? And so, like thinking about

“getting serious about the stuff that you know, you need to address. You know, you need to work on.”

I think that's one. And then related to that, I think, like, I have, uh, I've never lost my temper at my kids. And then afterward, been like, I'm so glad I did that. Yeah. Um, want to, I have like, on my phone, you know, it cycles through like pictures of my kids, like as my home screen. And one of the things I'm always struck by is like how little they were. Like, I was real fucking pissed at a very small person. Like, like, it doesn't age well. Like,

the things you get upset about, the things that you thought were a big deal as they get older, and you get a little better at this parenting thing. I think that the disparity of them in you becomes more obvious. And, um, I'm like, why did I, like, like, like, like, what do I give a shit about the backseat of the car so much for? You know, or like, you know, you walk in and he's drawn on the wall or, you know, uh, broke something, you know? What, where's where's the

car that my parents were really concerned about me spilling fucking my McDonald's ketchup on?

it did not ultimately affect the resale value of said car. It did not teach me any lessons

about cleanly, like, it, it was just like a stupid argument that we had, right? Like, and I, I try to think about that. Again, not good at it, but I try to go like, where will this thing be in the future? Am I going to care about it? You don't vote importance on any things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, I try to get better at not a human or the thing. What do I care more about?

“You know, I think the, the marriage advice is like, do you want to be right? You want to be married?”

You know, um, do you, do you want to have a good relationship with your kids or do you want to get your way all the time? How do you know if you're, I mean, this is just a really good way to put it, if you're a positive or a negative and your, yeah, kids mind, well, how do you gauge that? Um, to me, I think it comes down to, uh, like, like, no, no parent is perfect. Every, every, every therapy session ultimately ends up in all the ways that your parents could have done better

or whatever, right? But like, you know, people say like, oh, my parents did the best they could.

I'm not sure that's always true. And so like, are you actually doing your best? Like, that's,

to me, the question is like, like, I go, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing my best. And I go, am I? Because I feel like I try a lot harder at other stuff. Like, I'm not saying parenting is easy, but I feel like I do a lot more work evaluating myself professionally. I bring in a lot more help professionally. I, I measure myself better professionally. And then a lot of times as a parent I'm just winging it. And then, and then, and then I want to, I want them to let me off the hook

and go dad was doing this best. Like, I'm not sure that's true. And so that, that does kind of push

“me to try to do better. Yeah. So like me, I'm like that. Yeah, because look, and I think”

culturally for, for men especially, right? Like, your job was where you were supposed to be, like, your best, where you prove yourself. And then parenting was like an afterthought. And the expectations were, you know, that expression of the soft bigotry of low expectations,

that that's basically dudes for all of human history when it comes to parenting. And like,

I don't know. I want to do better than that. What are the, I mean, what are the steps that you are taking that you're thinking about taking that, that, that, that, that, that create a better balance? Yeah. I mean, to me, a big one is like, okay. So you're really good at what you do. You're successful at it. And then, and then you think that that somehow like exempts you from having to do share a health, right? Like, um, like, obviously like managing your time and delegating where

you can, but you're like, why am I assuming that like, my wife should make the school inches? Or there's this, they did this interesting study of like schools where like, they needed something at home. Like, like, there's some problem at the school, right? And the, the, the, the receptionist, or the Prince of War, whatever had to call the parent. Like, what percentage of the time have they called the dad? Probably a very small percentage. And there's, there's the assumption of the

person making the call. And then there's also the reality of like the family. Like, and, um, like, I've worked really hard in my wife and I, like, whenever we hire like an assistant or we, um, we're like, like, we're like, there's no, we're both the default parent. Like, it's not like,

“call her if there's anything important, uh, and then call Ryan if you can't reach her, you know?”

Like, I want to, I want to make this a thing that I value and that like, like, I heard someone say, like, your kids are not a distraction from your work. They are your work. And that's easy to say, but like, do you, what does your calendar say? You know, what is your division of household labor

decisions? You know, could you make purchase decisions? Did you, did it catch you off card that

“it was there? Like, like, there's just, there's just an, uh, an assumption, I think it's,”

look, it's obviously better than it's ever been before. But there is like an assumption that like, that's not, like, the term for this is emotional labor. That's not emotional labor that the father should have to do. Unless they're like a single parent or, you know, whatever. Um, and, uh, I'm not saying it came easy. And I'm not saying it came voluntarily. I'm just saying, like, in my marriage and in my family, my wife and I have tried to not do that. And it's been,

like, I've had to learn how to do a bunch of things that I would not, I would not normally be

inclined to do, uh, or be good at. I've had to figure out how to do. Man, it's just, um, man, it's such a dichotomy, right? I mean, I think about this all the time I've talked about this several times on the show. I mean, my wife and I have, like, this little bit of fucking hunt cabin that's, it is, like, looks like you can blow on it fall over. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's all one room, you know, the kitchen, the bath. It's all one room. Yeah. And, uh,

and, and before my kids were born, we would spend weekends down there and they'd just, we live on the, we need to sit, we live on the woods. We go down there. You're really out in the woods. And that's the, some of the happiest times I've had with my wife is down there. Zero to, there's no cell reception. There's no internet. There's nothing. And, um, and I keep coming back to this, which I love doing this. Yeah. But I'm happier. Right. There,

no distractions. I'm in the moment. Sure. And, you know, and now, um, with that, that I'm close to being able to just, I could do that. I could get rid of, I could sell the studio. I could do every, I could get rid of all of this, sell it. It'd be totally fine financially and actually live that life will run 100% dedicated to my family. Yeah. 100% of the time. Yeah. And knowing that I would probably be happier. Yeah. I'm 99% sure I would be a happier person. You know, if I,

if I put all, even though I love doing this, you know, put all the world's distractions, and it, just away from my life, but I still fucking come back to this because I love it. And, and I also think about, you know, we would, would it be better? Would it, would it realistically,

“would it be better for me to be there 100% of the time for my, for my wife and my two kids?”

And what kind of example is that setting for my son because that's not how society is set up? Yeah. I think it's an interesting question. Is it better for that? Is it right? It's better for them, right now, is it better for their future? Yeah. Because they're, they're, they're going to hit a point where they're going to have to provide for their family. Uh, it's on a track. I personally think it's on a track to for a woman to, whether, whether he is a wealthy, financially wealthy man,

or not, a trust fund baby, you know, I don't think, I don't think women, I don't think that's a real attraction. Sure. You know, um, yeah, to find it in a partner. Sure. You know, and so if he doesn't, if he doesn't see me providing for the family and in doing things that, in my opinion, men should be doing is the, is the leader of the household, then what, what happens to him when, when he comes a page to find a wife and have kids and provide? Well, don't you ever have that example,

then what is that going to lead to? And he may not ever find somebody if he doesn't, if he doesn't get that example. I, I remember a couple weeks into the pandemic, my wife was like,

"Please never be homeless much ever again." And like, obviously, I had to do some work on

like being like, "Okay, I have, I have to become a more stable, like chill person because

“this, this is it, this is a currently operating in a way that's only good in small doses." Right?”

That wasn't good. The same time, like, to take the energy and the drives and the confidence and the mastery, all the stuff that you have and be like, "I'm going to put all this at home."

sports parents, like, what are stage parents? I just mean like the parents that make

all facets of their existence, their family, right? And then all of a sudden you're just channeling that energy. Yeah. And like, there's an intensity and an energy that has to have to

“release valve. And I think work and impact, like, that shouldn't all be on your family. Like,”

there's a, we're, we're meant to go, to go out and do things and to figure things out. And it's like, so you're just going to drive them to school and then play golf all day. Like, I'm not sure that's, that's not thriving as a human being either or setting a good example either. So there's attention. But yeah, I think one of the things that bothers me and, and I think we all to loot ourselves with it is we go, "I do this all for my family." It's like, "No, you don't.

You stop needing to do this for your family a long time." Well, this is about you, right? And and that's not to say it's not about them at all. But like, you're a billionaire, dude. Like, you're not doing this for anybody. You're doing this because

there's never enough for you. And so, it can be very easy to take something selfish and make

it seem like it's selfless. Just to find it. Yeah. And so, understanding the tension between those two things. And like what I've tried, I've tried to say and work on a way that I can be really good at what I do and keep it within some reasonable hours, boundaries, and systems. To me, like, what I'm working on, like, I'm not trying to be the, sell the most books in the world, have the most impact in the world or be the most famous or any, I'm trying to be really good at

what I do and be a really good parent. And that in a way, that's actually a more difficult needle to

“thread than just being all in one or all in the other. And I think it's important that we understand”

that that's possible to do. Like, the athletes that I admire or the entrepreneurs that I admire or the leaders that I admire are not the maniacs, right? It's the ones who seem to be reasonably well adjusted human beings also, right? Like, sometimes you read about these, like, this is my daily routine, this is my system, this is how so and so prepares in the off season. And you're like, well, I'm sure that's all really easy to do if you don't fucking see your family, you know? Like,

if you're a piece of shit, that's easier. Yeah. Um, it's, it's, can you, can you be in great shape? Can you do what you do? Can you perform at a high level and do school drop off or, um, I don't know, be involved and be present when you're, you know, like, um, can, can you, like, that's the challenge from, like, it used to be like when I was working on a book, I was just an all-consuming thing. I don't just mean the hours. I just mean, like, I couldn't turn it off. And now I try to judge

the success on a book on, like, how, how, um, how not disruptive it is. Most gear looks good until you actually start using it. Then you find out pretty quickly what holds

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“That's ROKA.com and use code SRS. How do you, I'll be what are your indicators for you?”

The tell you if you're leading. I'm talking to you. I doubt you lean too far in the family. It seems like he probably lean too far into work. Yes. And so what are your indicators that let you know? Is it a personal guilt? Is it a, is it something the way your kids are acting, or communicating to you? Is it your wife? What is, what are your indicators? Yeah. I mean, look, just practically I try to measure like the stuff that I do or I say yes to,

I measure it in dead times. Like how many dead times are I going to miss for this thing? And like

one is a lot, two is usually too many. Right. So I try to measure it in dead times. So that's like, that's kind of my North Star. Like how physically is it's taking me away, yes or no? And that's, that's kind of how I judge like the stuff that comes my way. That being said, that can be a way of fooling yourself, which is like you're there, but you're not really there. So I try to think about like, hey, how, how is my emotional state, my focus? Like am I am I, am I the reason that this is all

“dysregulated or am I the Coleman presence? Right. And, and I think too often, like I'm,”

it's like I came home, amped. I came home, worked up. I'm stressed. I'm distracted. And you can, like, I think you can just feel the energy in the family dynamic. And I want to be the solution, not the problem. And I think I know I'm, I'm not taking care of the things that I need to be taken care of. And I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing when I am, I'm the problem. You know, like, like, if the three-year-old is upset, because they're a three-year-old,

great, if the three-year-old is upset, because you snap at them, because you were trying to play with them, and check your phone at the same time, you're the problem. And so, I try to think about that, like, how am I fitting into this system, this, this sort of wavelength, as opposed to, I want to make it all about me. Makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense.

“And then you should have a spouse and a family dynamic, co-parent, whatever it is for you, where”

they're like, dude, what was that? You know, like, like, I think my wife and I talk a lot about, like, like, let's back each other up in the moment, you know? Let's not throw each other under the bus in front of the kids, but, like, afterwards, like, you know, you can't do that. Like, you know, you can't do that. You saw, you saw when you made that choice, right? And it goes both directions. But, like, I think, if, if, if, if, if you're not making each other better as parents,

you're not, you're not doing their job. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Steve Renello's book. Yeah. Now, outdoor kids, and then inside world. I mean, there's so many studies to talk about, you know, the more kids are outside, the, the, the, the percentage of them having depression decreases dramatically. I mean, less green time depression decreases dramatically. You've raised in your kids on a farm. Yeah. Correct. My, my son's, my youngest is in first grade. And when he started in August,

it was the first time he ever sat at a desk because he went, he did kindergarten and pre-K for several years at an outdoor school. Like, they would go. There was no buildings. And they did it outside rain or shine. You know, they ate their lunch around a campfire.

And they did all the stuff outside. That's awesome. And it was incredible. And that kind of education

gold. I think it's just called a, it's like a nature school or an outdoor school. I'm guarantee you there's one around here. And it was incredible. And, you know, that was a big, big choice for us. And then, you know, we, like, one of our big things is like, okay, sure. Screens are maybe, maybe better parents than us could exist in a screen free household. That, we didn't, that ship is sale. But like, we try to use them to, like, how is that an entry point into a world that we,

we are, by nature of where we are financially and the freedom we have, like, we, I can show you that world, right? Like, my, my boy's got really into this podcast called Greek Count,

multiple times. And so, like, we went on a road trip across Greece, going around this year. Like, you get, if they get interested in a thing, because they watch a video about it, they hear about it,

like, let's go experience that thing in real life. So, to me, like, one of the most important

“skills you can have in life is, is first curiosity. But then second, the ability to”

take that curiosity to its natural conclusion, right? Like, if you're interested in something, or you don't know about something, do you have the skills to go figure it out? You know, like, there are books about that. There are videos about that. There are podcasts about that. There are places we can go. There are experts about this thing. There's AI, right? Like, how, how you to, like, to me, I try to see the screen as an entry point into the enormity of the world,

and then it's like the algorithm is exposing themselves to stuff, and then because they're interested in it, like, my job as a parent is to take them down that rabbit hole. Okay. And so, that's kind

“of how we think about learning and doing stuff. I love that. Like, oh, we're going on this road trip”

now, I guess. Like, you know, or, and I'm, I'm showing them stuff, right? It's like, like, I showed my son, this, like, Saturday night live video. We thought it was hilarious, and then, you know, it's like, oh, you want to take an improv class now? Done. You know, or, oh, do you actually know, like, Lauren Michael's papers or at a museum in Austin? Let's go do that. So, like, that idea of, like, they have that flicker of interest or awareness of something. How do you, how do you take

them down that rabbit hole? So, they show interest in you immediately, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, like, it's not heavy handed, but it's like, oh, there's so much more of that. You don't even know. And that's like, that gets me excited, right? Because, like, sometimes it's something I know a lot about, and I get to show you all the things that I know about it, and that I love about it. And then, sometimes it's something I know nothing about, and we could go learn about that together.

Do you want to do things to a little bit as well? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you're always like,

what about this? What about that? And, you know, you don't have a great hit rate, but when you win, when it, when it, when it lights a mop, that's like the best. Like, music, movies, um, yeah, nice. Let's stop. I'm dying to talk about this. All right. Churchill? Yeah. Okay. I didn't grow up with money. Yeah. It was never around it, you know, and, uh, down I find myself making a pretty decent amount. Yeah. And I don't know where to look to, you know,

how do you raise kids with that? Keep them humble. Keep them from being entitled. Keep them from idolizing shit. Yeah. Well, can cars, watches, whatever. You know, that, that, yeah. Luxury items. And, you know, how do you do it? I don't know. And you don't know whether you see all these people that have grown up with it. And a lot of times, I don't like the way they turn out. You know, I don't wish that for my kids. I'll say that. And you don't know if you're doing a good

“job until it's like too late. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think I think it's the thing that keeps parents”

up at night. Um, I remember I was talking to Matthew McConaughey one time and he said, you know, there were a lot of things when he was a kid where I was like, we can't. But then you find yourself in a position as a parent. It's very different. And it's like, we're not going to. Like, we don't do that. That, that child. Like, in a way, it's not easier because it's hard to not have enough. But it takes the choice out of things, right? Like, yeah. Um, you know. And I think

I think not to idealize the past, but like, there used to be society was, the, the, the, the, the

income inequality was less. Like, we've never existed with this level of income inequality

in this sort of stratified world, right, where it's like, okay, now it used to be there was

but there's like private. And, um, the people who are flying private are living in a very different world than the people who are not. And how do you, how do you stay in reality? I think it's like

the first, the first challenge, um, especially as, you know, people get to levels where, you know,

“it's, it's in consequential to them, like, what this costs or that costs. Um, you, you have to”

create some artificial boundaries and rules, I think. Um, I just, I don't know. It's fucking tough, right? It is because they have, like, you could starve them from all of that. Yeah. It was apparent. And you can, you can start, but then on the other hand, eventually they're going to be in it. And if they don't know how to act and when they're around it, then I also think you're doing them a disservice. And so they really need to know how to operate in both worlds. And in my opinion, how do you get

them to operate in both worlds without becoming a self entitled, selfish piece of shit? I mean,

for a lot of the world. Look, it's, it's a timeless, it's a timeless challenge. Plutarch, one of the great biographers of antiquity was talking about how parents will spend a lot of time on their will trying to create in a state who's going to manage the estate, who's going to be the guardians, how much money do they get? You know, it's been a lot of time thinking about that and not enough time thinking about how do I raise a person with enough character that, like, they can handle

it, right? Like instead of being like, oh, we're creating a trust fund and the trust fund gives them this much per year, which is just enough. And not to me. It's like, you could also just raise spend your time trying to raise a child who has good values in a good work ethic. And is doesn't

“derive their value from luxury goods, right? So I think it's, it's a, it's a challenge. Certainly,”

again, nothing close to the challenge of being a single mother on food stamps, trying to raise

three kids or whatever, but it, it comes with its own challenges. And ultimately, I think we

have to model it. And then I think we have to, like, the most valuable gift you can give your kid is not, you know, a huge estate. It's like, debility to, I have the thing that lights them up, like, that they like doing, that like, they want to spend their life doing. Like, Rob McQueen, my inventory calls this your life's task. What is your life's task? Like, what were you put here to do? And I think our job as parents is to help our kids find that thing,

to create an environment where they can find that thing and be supported and loved in pursuing

“that thing. You know, it's not to make them a doctor or a lawyer or to inherit the family business.”

It's to find the thing that if they didn't do, not only would they be unhappy, but the world would be worse off for them not doing it. I mean, I want to say something too, just for the audience have been a dead. I don't want to sound like a couple of fucking a leadist, you know, sitting up here talking about this, but this is, this is because we're not even talking about what we have, what we don't have. We're just anybody who finds themselves in a position

that they are doing better than their parents did, this applies to them, whether just, you know what I mean? Let's say an average American has a level of choice and privilege that a struggling family, almost anywhere else in the world, is not having to think about. So, this is privilege, but in a way that we're all privileged and there's just different degrees of it. But yeah, how do you, how do you raise a kid who's resilient? Who is in,

like, stoicism to me is about being in control of yourself, being master of yourself. And that's what we're trying, like you're trying to raise kids who can go through life. And, and are not going to be, as I said, don't say you a lot, don't throw in the towel a lot, don't expect other people to solve their problems for them. How do you raise self-sufficient resilient kids? That's the challenge of our time. And yet, it's also the most time we're challenged for every parent

for all time has had to deal with that in some form or another. And, I think, I don't think there's

I mean, the things that I'm learned about kids are very young. My oldest is close to five.

“But, you know, I think, I think it is, I really am starting to think it's the only thing that”

really matters is the example that you set for them. Yeah. So, if you idolize your shit, they're going to idolize their shit. If you get pissed because I fucking scratch your car, break a window, whatever, break a, they, anything. You know, and you, you overreact and idolize the thing, that's going to be passed on. Yeah. Same with people. You know, they're going to look to see how you treat people, all people. Yeah. Not people you look up to and people that you think that you're

above all people. And, you know, they're going to take that in and hopefully, you know, the financial aspect, it doesn't have any relevance. If you, if you lead by example, yeah, like they say your

kids, kids don't always listen, but they're always watching. And like, a way to think about it is like,

let's say you never gave them a single piece of advice. Like you never told your kids do this, don't do that. This is important. That's not important. This is what we believe. These are our values. What do you think they would deduce about what you think about those things from the life that you lead? Like, like, if you were tried and core, would you be convicted of those beliefs from your actions? I think that's like, you know, I think about this. It's like, okay, so I write about stoicism. But if,

“if I didn't, would my kids say that that's what I believe in or care about, that would that be how”

they would describe me? You know, and that, that's like, that's the message that ultimately matters.

Like, what do you, what are you saying with your your deeds, not your words? And you say this matters and this doesn't matter. And then, you know, your, your decisions tell a very different story. I'll have to say like, you know, your calendar doesn't lie. Yeah. And neither, neither ultimately does, does your, you know, you sure behave your home. Do you ever ask your kids for input? What are you doing? Oh, like, what can I do better? Yeah. All the time. Do you really?

Yeah. What do they say? Usually like, can I, you should give us our iPads more stuff like that?

“I think it's, it's a lot to ask them to be able to, I think when they're, they're, they're going to be”

better at being able to verbalize like what, what they need more of and what they need less of. But I do try to think like, hey, like, why isn't this working? You know, I try to, like, why, if this isn't having the effect that I wanted to have, I need to do something differently instead of insisting over and over again that this is how it should go. This is, you know, this is what I think. But I don't know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a constant,

fact of challenge. Yeah. And one of, one of the, um, one of the things, uh, I heard someone say that was helpful to me is like, like, uh, the bad parents aren't thinking about whether they're doing a good job or not. You know, so the fact that it is a challenge and that you are thinking about and that you're, you know, how are we doing here? Where can we do better? I'm worried about this. Like, that's not that already puts you in, in somewhat elite, uh, company. You're a better parent by, yeah,

you're, you're in the better parent category. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I look, a lot of people have kids, not everyone's a parent. Yeah. And the decision to be like, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to take this thing seriously. I'm going to, it's not this side hustle, but I have, it's like my pain to take, it's the main reason I'm here. Um, and, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to work at this like I work at anything else, which means I'm going to take it seriously. She means I'm going to ask for advice.

She means I'm going to actually look at how it's going in the results. Um, and then I'm going to be willing to change and try, try it differently. I'm not just going to go, well, my parents sit at this way, or well, this feels right to me, but actually be willing to change and take

there are things that 30 years later, my parents apologize for, it would not allow me, right? Like,

I don't know about you, but like, if my parents were like, hey, you know what, when you're a teenager, you really clearly needed this and we didn't do that for you. And I bet that was hard and like we thought about it more and like we wish we'd done it differently. I thought, oh my god,

“right? So it's never too late, right? Do apologize? How how quickly can you do it now, though?”

Like, like, can I go, hey, like the next day? Hey, I don't know why I picked this fight with you about you want to sleep on the floor. It doesn't matter me. I just love that you still let me put you down. And, uh, picking a fight was not how I wanted it to go, but I did, and uh, I don't want to do that. I'm sorry. Um, I mean, I don't know about you, but I didn't get a apologize to my friends or kid. Um, and, and, you know, maybe some people think that's weak or softer or whatever to me,

I'm trying to get better and I'm not going to get better if I'm not taking accountability and responsibility for when I don't do it the way that I want to do it. I do it, especially about the phone. Yeah. I feel so fucking guilty. And I keep doing it over and over and over again.

“Yeah, but I Paul, you know, I'm like, I do. I just, I have to do it. Yeah, because I think that”

once again, a lead by example, because it also teaches someone they need to be able to do that, too. We're just to see you struggle with, like, you're like, hey, this is a thing I have to use, but I use it way more than I have to. And I want to use it less. So here's where I want to be, here's where I am, and here's your dad trying to get there. Um, to me, that's a much more relatable,

a much more inspiring and ultimately much more practical perception of your parents then.

Mom and dad are perfect. Their word is law. Like, because kids know that's not true. They sense the bullshit. Yeah. And they resent it. And it it undermines it undermines their connection and their belief in you. And so, yeah, I try to, I try to to own that shit when I can. And I try to be, I try to be clear about the stuff that I'm working on and the stuff that I'm trying to get better at. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm doing a, um, I got so much out of my first psychedelics,

uh, I've again treatment. I'm doing it again. Um, and the, in the, in the foreseeable future, and what I'm really hoping I get out of it is some kind of perspective of what my kids think of me. Oh, interesting. I really want to see what I look like through their lens. Yeah. And that's probably going to be a hard time to say. But, um, yeah, I, uh, I just want to, I want to prove and, uh, I just, I really want to see that. I saw this video of, uh, it's billionaire and, uh,

someone was like, you know, what's it like to have a billion dollars or what's it like to be rich?

And he was like, rich isn't having a billion dollars. Rich is having kids who want to come home

“for the holidays. Bad. I think it's, it's, it's really important that you sort of define what”

success is, right? Like people go, oh, you only get 18 summers with your kids. And it's like, legally, but like, you meet families and they spend a lot of time together. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that's a whole different thing. I didn't know we could do that. You know, I didn't know that was something we could work towards. And so thinking about like what the goal is. And so the goal is not to have the shoes nicely lined up by the back door. The, the goal is not to have, I remember I was talking

with someone once shoes, she's in her 90s and she's like, people used to come over and be like, it doesn't look like you have kids and she was like, I took that as a compliment. And I, I don't, she's like, I don't know how I could have possibly been so wrong. She was like, your house should look like you have kids. Your light, you have kids. Why, what are you doing? So like, the goal is to have, it's to not have these people for 18 years and then eject them

and go back to your selfish life. Like, you started a family. The goal is to have the family. Yeah. In the future. And so remembering that, running the things through the lens of that, and again, it doesn't mean giving them whatever they want whenever they want it because that is

kids for the holidays. You know, they don't need to come home. But the point is they should want,

“they should want to come home, right? Like, like, you should, the success here is that that when the”

authority ends the relationship is still there. Yeah. And I think people lose side of that.

I've never heard it like that. That's really good. Let's talk about speed reading.

Speed reading is a scam. Well, how do I read faster? I don't know. It's, I think it's illustrative that that's what you want to do. You're not like, how do I eat food faster? Is there a way to have sex faster? Like, the point is stuff that's good. You want it, you want it to take how long it's supposed to take. So I don't know why we want to read faster. Like, if the question is, how do I read more? I got lots of answers to that question. But I don't think we should try to read faster, right? Like,

I would say I read at a medium speed. I just spend a lot of time reading. And I spend a lot of

time reading because it's worth doing. It's enjoyable to do. And also, it's magic. The founder and

the founding of Stoicism has a story about this. Zeno, the founder of Stoicism. He visits the

“Oracle at Delphi, the famous Oracle, and he asks what the secret to the good life is. And he's told”

that wisdom comes when we begin to have conversations with the dead. And it's only later at a bookstore that he realizes that that's what books are. It's a way to talk to people who are dead. That we can converse with Mark's realist through meditations, but we can read the speeches of Churchill that we can read, you know, the poems of Emily Dickinson, that, you know, we can read great novels, the campaigns of the greats. It's magic. It's fucking time travel. Like, here is

someone who's no longer with us transporting us to them, them to us breaking down, you know, there's a famous poem that says, you know, books are door-shaped, like their portals to another world. And so, anyways, the point is reading is spectacular. Like, like, for $15 or $20 or fucking free at the library that you can have access to the brain of Julius Caesar or Napoleon, you know, you can read from Stockdale, you can read from Mark's really, as you can read from

Epictetus, you can read from Frederick Douglass, you can read from Abraham Lincoln, you know,

this is incredible. Like, like, the amount of wisdom and hard-won experience inside the pages of

book is an incredible thing. And like, most people are like, I'd like to, I'd like to learn by trial and error, or they're like, I don't know, a lot of good stuff on Instagram too, right? Like, it's ridiculous. Tolstoy talked about, like, you can, you can, can first with the wisest people

“who ever lived and you choose not to. So, I think first and foremost, understanding what reading”

allows you to do makes the ROI of it much clearer. Is it also entertaining and fun and relaxing sure, but it's an incredible thing that we have contained in these pages? The other thing is, is like, you gotta make time for it. Like, there's no, there's no shortcut. Like, you got to do it, you got to make time for it. And if I looked at your screen time app, I promise you I could find the time, you know? Like, you have the time, you're just not spending it. And this is for all of us. Like,

I could read more, I just get distracted by things. And so, one of the reasons I like carry a physical book with me everywhere is like, when I sit down, because I'm a little early or someone's late, or I have a few minutes between here and there, like, I want to read a book. I don't want to go into social media. I don't want to go into work. I want to read. And I see that as part of my job. Like, it's crazy. Like, some of my best ideas, some of the biggest successes I've had as an entrepreneur,

but also as an employee, it came from things I read in books. But for some reason, if someone had come into my office and I was sitting in a chair like this reading, they'd be like, I don't pay you to do this. Yet, if I was sitting in my computer monitor, check an ESPN, they'd have no idea. And so, so it's, I think we, we need to do a better job understanding that reading is not just

time. And, uh, I don't know, that's my case for reading. Right on, man. We'll Ryan.

I know you had a flag to catch, but this is amazing. This was an awesome conversation. I

love to have you back at some point. We have to be honest. We do have a hot question. Oh, forgot. One last thing, hot question. Right. Audie Murphy tried to enlist in the Marines at 17. They rejected him for being too small. The pair of troopers rejected him too. He finally got into the army by gaining weight before the physical. 5, 5, 112 pounds. He went on to win every U.S. combat decoration for valor,

including the Medal of Honor. 28 medals total, the most decorated American soldier in history. He came home, became a movie star, and was haunted by PTSD for the rest of his life. slept with a loaded pistol under his pillow, got addicted to sleeping pills, locked himself in a hotel room, and kicked it cold turkey. And then he did something nobody at his level was doing in the 1960s. He went public, talked openly about combat trauma, demanded the VA take it

seriously, died in a plane crash at age 45. Here's the question. Tell me about Audie Murphy. What does the smallest quietest guy in the room becoming the most decorated soldier in American

“history tell us about what real toughness actually looks like?”

Well, they told us quite a bit about Audie Murphy right there. It's just an incredible human being

an incredible American. He has a memoir called The Helen Back, which I should have brought you because it's an amazing book. One of the great memoirs of the 20th century. I'll tell you one little story about Audie Murphy that all those accomplishments are incredibly impressive. One of the ones he doesn't get enough credit for, that I think, in a way, it's not harder, but it's rare. So it becomes a movie star, a country musician and he's asked to do a bunch of

endorsements. He turns down all drugs, sorry, all cigarette and alcohol endorsements because he doesn't want to model that for kids. I just think he did a lot of feats of discipline and a lot of feats of courage saying no to money is a thing that a lot of brave and powerful people have found it hard to do. In a way, there's physical courage and then there's moral courage. In the moral courage to say hey, I'm not going to do that. It doesn't feel right to me. It's courage

that we don't celebrate enough. We don't, we don't give out medals for that kind of courage. And then

“the courage to speak out and to speak honestly about what you're struggling with, like vulnerability,”

like hey, I'm not okay. Hey, even though I've capable of all these things, this thing, it's kicking my ass. I'm struggling with this thing. Again, that's another form of courage that we don't celebrate enough and we don't hold up enough. And it's, it's, and we wonder why it's, you know, we wonder why it's rare. And it, it, it, it moves me just as much. It's an incredible person and you, you read some of those Medal of Honor citations for those guys and you're just, it's just

absolutely unreal, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's a follow-up here. Okay. You're going to like this. What does this story say to every influencer right now selling alpha males, alpha male stoicism? Yeah. Uh, I, uh, Android Tate is a fucking abuser of women, a shitty person, a sex

“trafficker, and the idea that like that's who you should be taking life advice from is insane,”

right? Like stoicism is not a recipe for making you a better sociopath. It is not um, this pick and choose thing where you take a couple, uh, motivational quotes and then, you know, you put it up next to a AI generation. AI generated, uh, picture of marks really with a 12 pack and you're like, I get it, right? It's a, it's a, it's a philosophy and it's a philosophy built around

virtue and the, the four virtues of stoicism, courage, central, discipline, essential, wisdom,

That's your contribution to society to the world. And, um, you, none of the other virtues are

“of any worth. If not balanced out by or in fact directed at justice, right? Like, um,”

courage on the battlefield, sure, very impressive. But what if you're fighting horrible war? Like, I was in state in Franklin and, uh, you know, walk past the Confederate statue.

And, uh, you know, it says, uh, there've never been brave or men or a cause more honorable. It's like,

I can think of quite a few causes more honorable. Like, other than Nazism, it was literally the worst cause. Like, literally the worst cause to ever go to war for, um, now it's complicated. And, a lot of the men were drafted. Most of them didn't own slaves. They were told a bunch of lies by the slave powers. But let's not lie to ourselves about what that heroism was used for. Yeah. And what, what it would have looked like had it triumphed. Like, the world would have

been a worst place. Like, they, they're, in fact, they're virtue that military valour was weaponized and spent in the wrong way for the wrong cause. Right. And so there's, like, that's, that's

ultimately what philosophy is designed to help us wrestle with. It's like, what's right and wrong?

What do we owe other people? Are we making the world the better or worst place?

“And, uh, look, if, if the ideas of masculinity and toughness and resilience, if that's what,”

if that's what initially attracts you to stoicism, awesome, right? You just, you just can't stop there. And I think probably you see this in your line of work. Like, the recruiting posters is what gets the people in the door, right? But ultimately, you've got to buy into the values and the cause larger than yourself. And that it, if that's not you, that's actually like, like the most dangerous person because, um, like the violence and the power and the strength,

all that stuff is like, it's dangerous, if not, if not moderated by and controlled by this ethical compass, it can become very addictive. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. Everyone should

read to Helen back by Audie Murphy, just like an incredible and incredible book. Right on. Yeah.

Well Ryan, dude. Thank you. Thank you, man. This was awesome. This was awesome. I'm really

“appreciate you coming. That's a great time. I hope you come back. Yeah. That's what it is.”

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