#333 George Christie - Surviving 40 Years in the Hells Angels

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“So what point did you realize you wanted to be a Navy SEAL in pursuit of?”

I probably around sophomore junior high school. Was it like a particular event? No, I just... Well, let's see how it is.

But I was just always under the military.

I grew up playing with GI Joe's and carbon spears and shit like that out in the woods. But to be... Then I lost sight of it. But to be honest, I was just a fucking turd high school. I didn't really have anything going for me.

No direction. Uh-huh. And other than booze and trying to get some checks, which I wasn't very successful with. Well, who is a nice guy?

All right. Everybody's lying down. Um, and uh, my dad was, uh, we just put it heads in one day, fucking kick my ass around and, and, uh, as he, you know. And, uh, said, "I'm not paying for your fucking school.

I'm not doing, you know, basically like you're on your own, like fuck you." And I was like, "Cool. Uh, I already joined the Navy anyways."

“So, well, I didn't already join, but I was like, "Yeah, I've already talked”

into a recruiter anyways.

I'm gonna be a SEAL SEAL." And how did you respond to that? I totally like changed everything. It was like, "You did what?" And, uh, "Proud or concerned or nervous or both?"

Uh, yeah, probably all three. And what year was this? Did I join or-- Yeah, that you did this, uh, when you told your dad, "This is what I'm gonna do."

I guess what I'm-- Yeah, I'm trying to-- Probably like-- And my mind was going on in the world at the time, as a parent, you know?

Right 9/11, so probably like 99/2000. Well, yeah, okay, well, shit was kind of getting kind of-- Yeah, yeah. But, uh, I mean, I don't know what the hell was going on. I was in high school.

Sure. The George Bush election. But, um, yeah, that's kind of it. Yeah, you know, it--

“For me, probably 1955, 1956, I don't know--”

I don't know what year, probably--

Right 9/8 or 9 maybe, uh, I saw my first outlaw biker.

It was in San Fernando Valley. I was standing on the corner of my dad. He's talking to, uh, this Italian restaurant-- He has a restaurant as well. My dad was on the restaurant business.

And they're discussing the restaurant business. And, uh, I'm just, you know, just a goofy kid. Uh, and I hear this noise coming-- And I look up the street and you see this guy coming. And he gets to the, uh, stop sign stops.

And he does a series of things. He pushes his glasses up on his head. And he's, like, messing with something to his left side over here, which I've learned later. It's a jocky shifter, you know, it's a handshifter.

And I hear this distinctive rattling. And what they are is, I've learned later. It's the bearings in the clutch basket. Uh, it's, you know, he's engaged the clutch. And it's spinning.

It's not engaged. It's spinning. And these ball bearings are making this whirling sound. It's very distinct. They don't do it anymore because, you know,

they're, it's a whole different motorcycle nowadays. But so I'm just watching this guy. He's got to leave my vest cut off. And everybody's tripping on this guy. And, you know, he's not paying attention to anybody.

And the light changes. He dumps it and gear pops his glasses down. It just shoots across the intersection. And on what? What the hell was that, you know?

And I look at the Italian guy. And he looks at me. And he goes, "That's your America." And he spit on the ground. And I thought to myself, "That's my America."

And, you know, metaphorically, I jumped on the back of that bike. It was another 10 years. And I didn't get a bike till 1966. I was a kid. But that pushed me into the direction I wanted to go.

It was just so profound. And so it was just something else, man. Oh, shit. Yeah, you know, it's just like that. One event for me probably changed my life.

Yeah. I've had him gone down the alley that day and saw that guy. You know? Who knows how? Yeah.

Maybe I've been a cop. That would have been a change of events. But I got a hot question for you, actually.

There are a handful of patches on bike or vest that everyone recognizes. And a few that people whisper about because they're considered notorious.

“For someone who doesn't know the culture, can you break down what the main patch is mean?”

What they represent inside the club in generally. How a guy earns the right to wear each one. Well, the... The Hell's Angel patch, the top rocker, the center patch, which is called the death head. And you have your MC motorcycle club patch below that.

And then you have a bottom rocker that identifies what state you're from or what area you're claiming to basically kind of control.

And, you know, the big dogs run the state rockers. And, you know, the smaller, you know, they're subservient to the bigger clubs. They might have, you know, to ping a canyon or a town in Des Moines or whatever. But each club is pretty much structured like the outlaws. They have a piston.

Have you ever seen that wall patch? It's a piston double. It's a skull with two pissed cross pistons. Almost kind of looks like it could be mistaken for a pirate type patch. I mean, it's a really distinctive, very iconic, like the death head itself.

And they were kind of like the number two in the world of outlaw bike clubs. And on the front, you've got these various patches that some of them are very esoteric. Nobody knows what they mean. Certainly over the years things are getting out.

“You know, people become informants and they debrief and they tell them, "Please, well, that's what this means."”

And that's what that means.

But the problem is, with the gentlemen doing that, they embellish sometimes.

They have their own agenda. No way. You can't hear that. They have their own agenda. So, you know, they want to seem informed.

They want to engage these cops because they're trying to extract themselves from a problem. So, a patch that I'm going to use as some leading up to something. The filthy few is in the outlaw bike world morphed into an urban legend. And what it means is you have killed on the behest of the club, if you will. And that entitled you to wear a filthy few patch.

Would that be one of the highest paths? Yeah. That and there's another patch called the Dequello patch.

“This is how the Angel stuff I'm speaking of.”

They have the Dequello patch which means you're willing to fight law enforcement for what you believe in. You know, like maybe a couple say, you know, and it happens. I'm going to take that patch off. We don't allow that patch in the town. Of course, the in exchange starts. I'm not taking it off.

Oh, you're going to take it off. And then, actually, you know, they're fighting. Somebody did that. And he physically engaged a cop in combat, a hand-to-hand combat or whatever you want to call it. He would have the right to wear the Dequello patch.

The filthy few started out with the first to arrive in the last three. They were like a crew of guys that their whole life was just about partying. You know, right motorcycle was partying. They were the first guys to come to the last guys to leave. They started calling themselves a filthy few.

And they were from the Bay Area. San Francisco all the area up in that Northern California. There's Southern California guys in response to the filthy few. They started the organization themselves called the Raggedy Wranglers. And they were, that was the competition between the two now.

I recently worked with the competition between the clubs with the interconflict. No shit. It's so they don't have Los Angeles, North Cal, Los Angeles, South Cal. They fucking don't like it. Well, not that they don't like each other.

It's like a healthy rivalry. Yeah, yeah, you want to be a real health angel. You ought to come up here with us. There's an East Coast West Coast SIL teams. Exactly.

Okay. And that's where I was heading with as I was going to say. Well, if it comes down to it, we'll also fight together. Yeah, we'll fight each other. Got your back.

Well, the chips are down. I'm right there with your brother. I'm going down with you. Even though I may have kicked you a couple weeks ago in that bar fight. But so I work as an expert witness sometimes for the defense,

which is kind of something new in the past.

The prosecution always brought in their gang expert.

And then he goes through, you know, for four years I did this.

They bring me in there. And I, you know, I tell the judge, well, your honor. You know, I was in the Hell's Angels for 40 years prior to that. I was independent in the Alwa bike world for 10 years. And then the judge says, okay, he's an expert.

And they allow you to testify. There's a big controversy in law enforcement. They say that anybody with the filthy few patch on has killed somebody at the behest of the club.

And I got a big argument with the prosecutor and, you know, the judge finally kind of settled the thing.

I explained to the jury, like I just did, to you that initially was guys first to come the last to leave. And it sort of morphed into this urban legend that if you weren't a filthy few patch, you killed somebody. The problem with that theory and there, you know what, I'm sure some of the guys weren't a filthy few patch. You know, have committed crimes up, you know, to murder. I don't know, you know, I'm not speaking for everybody.

But my point was, everybody in the Hell's Angels now wears a filthy few patch. I mean, you go somewhere and you see 20 guys in a charter with a filthy few patch on it, talking in a circle. And my argument was, where are the bodies? You know, I mean, these people are getting these patches because you're professing that they killed somebody.

“Well, you know, where's the indictments, where's the bodies, where's the cases?”

So it's become an urban legend or not, you know, I told the jury at the end. I said, you know, who am I to interrupt an urban legend? You know, let it be what it's going to be.

You have, as a jury, you're going to have to determine whether he did that crime or not,

whether he's wearing a particular patch or not. That's really boils down to, you know, of course I got accused of perjury. And you know, we're going to die to your line under oath. I said, we'll prove it. You know, I mean, sir, are you saying they may have flooded the club with the patch?

Yes. Would they do that too? Not intentionally. It would not do an intentionally. I wouldn't do it.

It is like a kind of a siop to other clubs that makes it. Yeah. I kind of like, I'm willing to do this or I've done it. Yeah, I've done it. And that's for you to determine by how I conduct myself.

I'm sure. I don't mean any disrespect to anybody in the military. But I'm sure, you know, you run across somebody else that's a seal. You're going to size them up. You know, you want to make sure this guy can have my back.

Is this guy, did he take his training seriously? And how committed is he? You know, I would assume most seals are committed to 100%. But you know, you would have to tell me, yes or no, George. I mean, most of them.

Yeah.

“I always, uh, there's always one turds that fall, right?”

Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand completely.

You know, it's always the guy when you, you got a new guy come around the club.

In the beginning, I was like, oh, this is great. I'm embracing this guy and, you know, just so happy to see him. You know, 10 years down the road. I'm thinking, it's just the guy going to flip. Yeah.

What's he made of is what kind of metal is he really? You know, how do we test this guy to find out he's going to hold up? What is, what is, if you don't want to name names, I get it. But what is one of the most rarest patches that nobody knows about? Well, you know, and what have they had?

The bastard brigade, uh, was, you know, I get people right me all the time. What is the, uh, bastard brigade? You know, this is a small group of individuals. I mean, I guess you could describe it as a small cartel within the organization. And really, maybe only those guys know what, what it is, what it's about.

And when it entails to become one of them. I know that you go back east. You've got back, you've got a group of guys that call themselves bad company. I mean, you know, guys back Eastern, there's some bad asses back there. You know, if you look at your history, uh, with the New York guys, Cleveland guys, the low guys.

I mean, uh, look at the history of Cleveland.

“I mean, these guys worked for Danny Green, are you familiar with Danny Green?”

Danny Green was the Irish mobster in the seventh. Oh, yeah, they made a movie about. Yeah. Kill the Irishman. Yeah, the teamsters.

Yeah. He was up against the teamsters and the mob. Well, it helps angels work for the talons and they work for Danny Green. And, uh, they work both sides of the fence. You know, because they didn't support Danny Green or they didn't support the Italians as an organization.

But people within the organization were hiring out.

And, you know, somebody take the job.

“Uh, uh, uh, did they create, uh, uh, little patches, sure they did.”

And they, they were distinctive to that specific specific group of guys. Perhaps specific acts, uh, you know, in the early days, those patches initially were. And I, I'm sure you're aware of this, uh, everybody would wear wings. And they had to do with sexual acts. You know, you know, the red wings, the black wings, the broken wings, whatever they may be.

We had an individual in the club called Terry the Trump. You know, he had a whole array of, uh, wings. And if you've ever seen Hell's Angel 69? Yes. Yeah.

Terry was in that. He was the, uh, kind of stole the show.

He was the guy with the big gauntlets and long hair and, uh,

red motorcycle. Great enough. That movie creates an conflict between him and Sonny. Uh, oh, shit. Because he seemed to be getting a lot more attention than Sonny wanted him to get.

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Privacy isn't paranoia. It's protection. What was, so what would happen if somebody was wearing patches or a color that they didn't earn? What would happen?

I would say anything from a stern lecture to, of, you know, a hole in the desert. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, just to depend on the circumstances.

“But I think maybe this is something you could relate to.”

Think a lot of it has to do with how people explain themselves or conduct themselves. Why they're explaining the situation. You know, you start, I'll use the worm interrogation. You start sounding somebody about something. He's going to drive how the end process is because if you had an intention to hurt this guy,

you wouldn't be talking to him. You know, somebody'd walk up behind him and she even had or something. But if you're negotiating with somebody, it's because you're trying to avoid something or you're trying to achieve something. And if you're talking, you know, figures as long as you're talking, you're not fighting.

Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. So you guys are looking for ownership. Somebody that owns their fucking shed. Gotcha.

And, you know, is it still that way?

You know, I left the club in 2011. I got disillusioned.

“I was disappointed in the direction things were heading.”

You know, I walked into that world in, you know, 1966. Immediately started running around with the question marks, which were endorsed as a 1% club by the Los Angeles, the St. Slaves again. These are the guys I ran around with.

Ultimately, met the Los Angeles up on Kern River, met a guy named Allman John.

You know, this is in the mid 70s, early 70s. He was already old back then, you know, he was an old man. But former Navy. I don't know if he was a CB or Navy. He had been on in the Pacific Theater.

You know, I don't know specifically where. But, you know, like a lot of the guys, you're familiar with how the club started. You know, they were from returning vets from the European Pacific theaters. You're a little more too, right? Yeah.

Let's get into that in a minute. Okay. Let me give you an introduction here. All right. Let's see.

Became a full patched.

“Hell's Angel in the Los Angeles Charter in 1976.”

And six months later, became president of that charter before founding the Ventura Charter in 1978.

Your 10 years president was was longest in club's history spanning 7 US presidential terms beginning with Gerald Ford and ending with Barack Obama. Survived Rico indictments, ATF stings, internal rats and murder contracts, and time in prison. Since you resigned in 2011, you've written books. Start in documentaries and consulted on other projects.

You launched felony prison consultants and worked with defense attorneys to analyze their cases and prepare a strong legal defenses. You work with defendants to assist them in coming to terms with their situation and prepare for the complexities, of course, as well as protocol of prison life. I forgot to mention, they're also a US Marine.

And so I had years with the Department of Defense, too. Oh, really? Yeah.

I do have that in the outline.

What real quick, just one.

“What is the, I know what it is, but it may be diluted from my days of research.”

What is a one percent or mean? Okay, when these small groups of veterans started teaming up together, you had the pissed off bastards, you had the galping booth, you had the yellow jackets, the booze fighters, 13 rebels, you had these small ones. Those fighters was one of the original clubs.

They were, they were at Hollister. And I, I used Hollister, whether fairly or unfairly as a starting point for the west coast, birth of the outlaw biker. They went to Hollister in 1948. There were hill climbs and races.

And I don't know what else they had going there. They went up there. In addition, the San Francisco Chronicle sent a, got wind of this new phenomenon of these bike clubs. They sent a reporter to Hollister, a reporter went there. They brought a camera guy.

They were snapping shots. They were interviewing people. And they came back and wrote this. What became a slacious story about how these meridine veterans wrote into the small town of Hollister. And we're raping in pillaging.

You know, they took over the town. And the reporter asked the American Motorcycle Association. So what's, what's with these rowdy bikers? And they said that their actual comment was, it's only 1% that run it for us, hold some writers.

And these guys, these club guys, now I'm just, you know, a baby or a little kid then. They get this term 1% or they embrace it. And they become the 1% that run it for the whole thing writers. And they're still continuing to run it to this day. So that's how that started.

And they didn't start wearing the badges. And I'm going to, I have a challenge going. I want to give you along with my book. And you'll, you'll look on the front of that. 1% or 1% or 1% or.

And then, you know, you see the, that's me standing in front of the club house. Thank you. Yeah. And I figured you'd appreciate it and you'd understand it. And I, you know, I trace the challenge going back to the Roman legions.

They go back that car.

They, uh, they carried anybody that did a specific bravery in a battle or fought in a really hard fought battle.

“They would give them a challenge coin that was also valuable.”

It hadn't, you know, had a monetary value. But in addition to that, it identified you secretly as being part of a legion. Oh, yeah. You know, and if you got caught carrying it and you weren't part of the legion, you know, you can imagine back then with the consequences.

Yeah. So, uh, maybe things haven't changed that much, you know. But anyways, uh, so everybody embraced that title in, in the late 50s, early 60s. Nobody seems to know for sure. I initially thought they started doing it right away.

And then I myself as I'm creating this historical record of all this outlaw lifestyle. And I find out that it didn't really happen with the 1% of badges to the late 50s, you know, early 60s. And, you know, there used to be 1% of meetings or in the California West Coast. You had the, uh, health angels in the Bay Area. In Monterey, you had a club called the Losers.

And in Ventura County, you had a club called the question marks.

In San Fernando Valley, you had a club called the St. and Slaves. And then, uh, the Galapagos and the Boos fighters. These guys were all part of this 1% of their coalition.

“And, you know, they have meetings, but, you know, they really were,”

reasons to get together in a party. Yeah. They weren't really meetings, you know. Uh, you know, be anybody got any business? No, let's drink.

Oh, uh, but, uh, they became interesting. I thought about doing this. Did you really? I did. And when, at what point your life?

I was contractin' for the agency. Yeah. And I'd love to seal teams, try to, try to do some real estate stuff. I fucking hated it. I could not stand being with civilians at the time.

And, uh, that, that, and I was getting fights all the time. It was just all I did was drink and fight. Right. And, um, and then I, that, so that's where I kind of started to think about it, because I just could not fit in.

And, um, did you, did you hang around anybody? No. I bought, well, where were you from? I didn't have any money. I still need any money, man.

So we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're you out. You were absolutely. Oh, well, uh, the St. Louis at that time. Well, I was just reading. And then, uh, and then I wound up contractin' for CAA.

And it turns out there was a bunch of guys, uh, that I was contractin' with, that it all thought about the same thing. And, um, kind of goes along with the, Yeah. And so my, when I, when I, in my readings, I, I, in my research,

I was just, I really, it sounded like everybody was come back for more war to nobody could fit in. So I immediately related to it. And, um, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, So I was drawn to it.

I was, I was like, oh, so this is, well, how all these places started. Right. And then it's, and then, uh, talking to other friends, that were also looking into it. Um, it kind of sounded like maybe the clubs have been diluted a lot.

By this point, they're probably weren't very many better, which years as you think. Probably around probably about the time you were leaving 2,011. Yeah. And, um, and then I, I had heard, one of them told me that, uh,

they were like, yeah, I wanted to do it, because I fucking love motorcycles and he goes, I just went to a bike shop where a bunch of them were working and I realized they're all stealing each other's bikes. I mean, he was like, uh, I'll, I just think it's different.

Well, I just think it's stupid that a motorcycle enthusiast was dealing with somebody else's bike. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, we had a, uh, more touring in Ventura. We ruled as Hell's Angels Ventura.

We ruled Ventura with iron hand. And that was one of the things that was not allowed in that county, or the county so much, but the town. It was hard to control a whole county, but in the city of Ventura, there was no bike, so you know, all.

Nobody even locked their bike. In fact, if you came to our bar and locked your bike, we would ask you to unlock it because we took it as an insult. Oh, wow.

“I go, man, you know, I go, are you inferring that we're a bunch of bikes thieves?”

I go because you need to unlock it. And if you don't want to unlock it, I understand that, but you got to leave. You got to unlock it. You got to leave.

And we're not going to warn you again. So make your choice what you want to do.

And, you know, most of the people would always unlock it.

And go, I didn't know, you know, and whatnot. And, you know, the police knew that was a policy in town.

And he spent the weekend in the clubhouse.

“It was one of the cops knew he was in there.”

Oh, we're spread all over the street. And the sergeant, the scribe known for since 1978, pulled up. They said, hey, he's out there, man. So I went out there, I go, what's up? He goes, because I know you got the guy in there.

He goes, scare the shit out of him, but don't hurt him. He says, we don't want to know reports, man. And, you know, we kept him in there all weekend. Made him assemble the bike. He had taken the bike apart.

Made him real assemble the bike. And then we made him go pick dog shit up in the backyard. We had two big, rot-wilders. Nice. Didn't like anybody.

But we told him to go out there, and we didn't even cage the dog. We don't want to cage him up, man.

We just go out there and deal with the dogs.

They were just like watching his ass. But weren't spread fast. And no more bite to those. On that. Yeah.

“Well, we got a couple things that crank out here real quick.”

Okay. We'll get two in the weeds. All right. So one, I have a Patreon account. It's subscription account.

Okay. And they're the reason that I get to sit here with you today. So I offer them the opportunity to ask every guest a question. This is from Brian. In hindsight, would you prioritize keeping the DOD career

that you had after military service rather than pursuing life as a hell's angel? Follow one. What obstacles did you encounter when transitioning from military service to the civilian world

and how did you address them? So is that two-part question? Yeah. Well, I didn't like taking orders from people I didn't respect. That was a real problem for me.

And I wound up. I was at a Marine Reserve Unit. And it was for over four years. And the O311 was a rifle unit. We had a new gun resargent come.

And he was very disrespectful. And he had old school guy. Now, I felt the unit, the company was tight. But we were reserved. We were reserved, you know.

So people were living their civilian life and blending the military life together. And the platoon I had to be. And we were taking psychedelics. And, you know, we were getting high on smoking pot.

And he knew that he thought he was going to come there and change everything. And him and I wound up getting in a beef. And we were under rifle range. And I was kind of fucking around. I didn't think he'd do anything.

But we were standing the firing. And told him it was four or five guys between us. He was down the range talking shit to me.

You know, like they always did.

He just rode me. And so I told everybody to get off the range. And I put my rifle to my side and I told draw. And he ran off the range. Went and ratted me out.

Got court martial. That's a court martial. It kind of drifted into. Perhaps you'd fit in better working by yourself. And I went out under a general discharge.

And under honorable conditions. While I'm going to work for the Department of Defense. At Point McGu. Obviously communication trouble. Shooter.

There was a summary surveillance. This is the middle of the Cold War with the Russians in the late 70s. Took care of the RCA building. It was a summary surveillance system. They had one in Santa Cruz.

It's all declassified now. They had one in Santa Cruz. And they had one in Northern California. They watched all the Russian subs. You know, didn't let them get too close.

And that was my job. And they found out I was the leader of the Los Angeles Hell's Angels. So I got cold in the office. So I got cold in the office. I'll bet you did.

And they said. They're going to need to ask you something. We know this room has been floating around. We thought it was a joke.

“But are you really leader of the Los Angeles Hell's Angels?”

I said I am. They just looked at me. You know, my. My boss was a cool dude. You know, and they just go cheese.

It's Christ, Christy. And he gets. We're going to pull your security clearance. You can't be with those guys and be with us.

I made my choice. I walked away, you know.

Do I reflect back sometimes now?

I. When when I walked away from the club and everybody turned their back on me after 40 years of service. I had my feet on dirt. I was mad. And, you know, I look at you.

I look around this room. I look at the things that were presented to you. You know, you. You guys know Terry guys. You guys risk your ass every day now.

I used to risk my ass every day too. It was for ourselves. It wasn't for our country. The health angels are so certain organization. But it was a fun loving organization at one time.

Besides, I thought it was a living, let live world. But I, you know, I look around the room here. I look at you.

“I think, yeah, I wonder what would happen.”

But it's a hypothetical question.

And you know, you never get a concrete answer for it.

You know, I. What rank would I have made? What would I have accomplished? You know, I have a. A great story.

When did the Seal start? They started in what 65, 66. Oh, man. I'm going to get killed for not knowing this. Okay.

I'm going to tell you. I think that's that's about winning. I'll tell you why. I. I.

Had got hit in the head. I got to fight with another Marine. And he. You know, I went to a sick call. Had my head stitched.

Wouldn't tell him what happened to him.

I hit my head on the rack.

“Uh, which really up my bar with all of the old school.”

Marine sergeants, you know. And uh, there was a guy in there that had broke his shoulder. Like in a collarbone. He was a. He was trying out for something new.

And he said he was going to be a Navy seal. And he had. He had jumped out of a plane and the parent. Did you guys jump? Uh-huh.

Yeah. And he had hit his shoulder when he landed. He didn't land right. And he couldn't wait to get back. Uh, toward they, you know, they took him out.

And, you know, I don't know the structure how it works. Uh, you know, listen to a guy like that. And you think, wow. Now, another story is, uh, when I'm getting, I'm in the reserve unit. I get activated when I, when I.

Challenges at gun resources. They've got me down at Camp Pendleton. And I'm walking. I can't remember. You know, I have the little camp.

You've been a camp Pendleton. Uh-huh. You know, all the little pick. They got all these little satellite camps everywhere. Yeah.

And, uh, I'm walking down the road. And across the street. As a guy was in boot camp with. And he stepped on a fucking mind. And, uh, you know, he looked like he was, you know,

we're all 19, 20 years old. And I don't know how old I was. But, you know, just in my early early 20s, at the most. And he looked like he was 60 years old, man.

You know, the way he was walking. And, uh, he was walking them like I've walking. Uh-huh. With my two hip replacements. But, you know, just, just, there's a higher power.

I feel that generates all these moves.

“And, you know, you have to assist them in the, uh, in the journey.”

But, uh, I don't know. I don't know if I even answered the question. But I think you did. I, I, I mean, who knows, man. Well, I got you gift to kind of challenge going.

But, yeah. It's going to be yummy bears. Man, the USA. You do it all 50 states. Really?

Yeah. 50 states. That means there's no funny business in those. But, um, yeah. I don't sure.

I got to appreciate that. Thank you. My pleasure. Could you give us a history lesson on the Hell's Angels? How they started when they came about?

Well, you know, they were. They were originally the pissed off bastards. Okay. And, uh, a couple of the guys started two leaders, you know, two leaders and one squad don't. There's a work sometimes.

And, uh, they split. And the part of the pissed off bastards became the Hell's Angels. And, uh, and a little town blooming tone down there by San Bernardino Riverside. There was a gentleman who in 1978, 79 claims that he started the Hell's Angels.

Uh, you know, there's nobody kept any records back down.

There was, it was just unwritten rules.

“If you didn't make it or you didn't stand up for yourself.”

You know, usually wind up getting beat up and run off. And, uh, somebody went up with your motorcycle and your jacket. It was a pretty tough world. And, uh, we started in San Bernardino. In 1957, uh, well, 19 on the back up in 1956.

Sunny Barsher joined the army. And he was 16. And they found out he was, uh, not a legal age. And they discharged him, honorably. He started the Oakland Hell's Angels with another gentleman named Boots.

I don't know Boots is real name. I just know him by Boots. A lot of monocards and the Los Angeles, you know. The power base that was in Southern California made a transition. Sunny Barsher was a kind of a natural leader.

A very charismatic guy.

“And he pulled the power to the Bay Area.”

And probably by the early '60s. And then into the mid '60s, he became the voice and the face of the Hell's Angels. And he was very, uh, uh, adamant that it was his club. Him and I used to argue all the time. I was kind of ten years behind him in the, uh, pecking order.

And his attitude was the club belonging to him. My attitude was, we all belonged to the club. But, uh, uh, that's a brief history lesson. We, uh, started a tug of war. And we mentioned this earlier between the North and the South.

And it was, it was, uh, healthy, uh, rivalry. But sometimes it turned unhealthy and deadly. Uh, I know that sunny. Initially, if people look on the internet, the deathhead was called the Bumblebee deathhead.

It was very small. And it was kind of at a 45 degree angle. And you can see both wings. And sunny met. There were two Hell's Angels Charters in Southern California.

There was a so-called Hell's Angels that had nothing to do with the, Purdue Hell's Angels. It was two separate clubs with the same name.

And sunny basically said, we're going to, you're either going to join with us,

or you're going to get pushed out. And in the process, he liked the patch better that, that gentleman named Vic Bettenhart created. It was the side view deathhead. Basically the deathhead you see nowadays, uh, in the patch.

And he took that style, had him rewrite it. And then sent 12 patches to San Bernardino 13 patches. I don't know how many people in the club at that time down there. And said, this is the new patches. Put these on.

Or the next time we see you guys, we're going to fight. And so of course, San Bernardino being San Bernardino, Hell's Angels. Shop the badges for holes. Put them back in the box and uh, sent them to open.

And then since about 1965, I was told, I wasn't there. I was told it was 1965. I was told in high school. And the north and the south met at Bass Lake that year.

And uh, they fought it out. That war went on for about, you know, interconflict if you want to call it. Three or four years. Nobody was killed over that patch.

But there was a lot of people beat up. I know that a sunny pistol with grubby Glenn at Bass Lake that year.

Because probably said, I'm never putting that badge on.

And I'm never not being a Hell's Angels. And this is kind of a side story, a backstory of 25, 30 years later, I can't remember. The sunny gave grubby Glenn the pistol as a gift. He pistol wepty for this.

And a big party in San Bernardino clubhouse. So, you know, you got that weird rivalry.

“I think the military people were similar.”

Very similar. Would relate to something like that. You know, citizens are like, oh my God, what the hell, you guys are crazy. Yeah, perhaps.

But that's just all part of the game, you know. But I remember being at that party and Glenn opened and that gift up and Glenn worked at it.

You've been at Bass Lake in 1965. Wow.

“And it's just, you know, kind of pistol.”

And they're both felons. I was some revolver, I think. Oh, we're in London special. So let's talk about you then. So how actually, what is so.

When it comes to the, do the clubs recruit? Well, are they looking for pistol? There's two ways to build a club. One way is to push out the weak links, if you will. The other philosophy.

How do you do that? You just start pushing and jumping, kind of. You know, you know what it's like? I mean, I'm sure you guys, if you don't think somebody's. I know how we do it.

I'm curious how you do it. Well, we start kicking people's ass and putting them through tests. Put them out of tests. Well, put them in a situation, perhaps. Go to a bar, you know, there's going to be a problem.

What are these guys made of? How are they going to conduct it? Maybe ask them to do something that. A felony favor. And will they do it?

Will they not do it?

“How important is getting in the Hell's Angels or any club to that particular individual?”

I don't. I thought you meant pushing out the weak from. Well, they're already in.

Well, no, that this is people coming in, but I'm going to address that in a second.

The second way to do things is you want to take over a club. You just take them over. Bring everybody in. Put your patch on them. And then start weeding them out.

Okay. The end result is the same. You're going to lose 50% of the guys. You're going to lose 50% in the old school guys. Well, ever want those individuals to say, well, I used to be a Hell's Angel.

You know, even though it was a three month span, they don't want to hear. You got guys like dug the thug running around and moldy Marvin. You know, they didn't want these guys having the ability to say that. Like, I've been Canada. I don't know if you know anything about Canada.

Very serious guys up there in Canada with the Hell's Angels. They had a complete country patch over. I can't remember. Your country patch. They just took over all these clubs and put Hell's Angel patches on them.

And they used the second, you know, weight is to weed things out.

They put the patches on and they weeded them out. And you know, but what they did was they probably stopped a lot of law enforcement investigations. The prior, I mean, I'm sure the investigation started once the people put that new patch on. But you kind of go around the investigation getting front of it if you will. It's probably like invading, if you guys are going to do an operation.

You know, you just go there and do it like, you know, they took that. Venezuela president, you know. It just went down there and got him, you know, brought him back. Whether, you know, right, wrong or indifferent. Yeah, pushing foot around, you know.

I mean, I would think a lot of these guys would fight to the death over switching, switching teams. Well, maybe not.

“Well, I think that there's a pecking order in the outlaw bike world.”

You've got what they called the big four at one time. It was the Hell's Angels. The outlaws, the banditos and the pagans. Now you've got some additional clubs. You've got the Mongols who really earned their place on that culture.

You know, we fought them in Southern California. We're still fighting. We started in 1977 and it's still going on. I mean, a lot of lives lost. And on both sides, they're a real contender of the outlaw bike world.

You've got the sons of silence. You've got the pagans now making this big move.

I'm told all over the United States that are going into places they never went before.

But you would hope that someone would fight to the death. You know, I'm sure that, you know, be here about things that these different elite military groups do. You know, these guys are there. They don't think they want to surrender. You know, I don't know if I'm answering the question. Yeah, you are. And so with the recruiting, is it, I mean,

Are you, I guess, are you, is there outreach or is it just intake?

If you start petitioning people to get into club. How on board are they, you know, it's better.

“I think I think it's better to have them come to you and want to be in the organization.”

Be part of it. They want it so bad they can taste it. I don't know. I'm sure you know that feeling. You want it so bad you can taste it. And those are the hungry guys.

Those are the guys I always looked at.

I never went and recruited anybody. We had a situation in Ventura when phenomena of street gang violence started. Where these specific little street gangs were shooting at each other. We brought all the street gang leaders into the Ventura clubhouse. And basically, they had a moratorium on the violence.

And we, you guys aren't going to shoot at each other in Ventura. We don't want the heat, man. It wasn't because we were being selfish about it. We didn't want to danger the community. Of course, we didn't want to see anybody get hurt. But it was really self-serving, you know.

We didn't want the heat. We didn't want the government grants coming to town.

“I don't know. You know how much federal government, man.”

You've got a health angel charter in your town. You've got to apply for government grants. You can get a attached to a federal agency, a created task force. There's a lot of things that can transpire. And when we stopped that moratorium on the violence,

some of these clubs, these street gangs are not clubs or street gangs. We call ourselves a club. I mean, these guys call themselves street gangs. We start having some of the members gravitate from these street gangs. And we wound up probably getting one to two or three new members and the mid-90s from every street gang that we had approached and said,

"You're not going to be shooting at anybody."

And we never petitioned them.

They came on their own free will. A lot of people accused me of going out and, you know, poaching these guys in these street gangs. That never happened. These were guys that saw what was going on, saw the right thing.

“What if it did? What if it did? What if you did recruit them from them?”

Yeah, who cares? Yeah. But, you know, there's, look, I left the club on good terms. And then soon as sunny, sunny, I were like fighting like, you know, unbelievably. Before I got, you know, it's for I made the decision to leave. We'll get there. We'll get there.

Okay. Let's stay with recruiting. Okay. So, are you guys, I mean, I'm just curious. Do you intake anybody that wants it better? Are you looking for specific skills? You know, I'm just, I've been asked this question a lot.

I'm just going to address it. Maybe you'll stop me if that's something that you're going to get into later. But it's usually white young guys. It's not because we're racist. There's Mexicans in the club. There's Filipinos in the club.

But for years, there were no blacks in the club. Because we adopted the West Coast prison guidelines. And that is very strict. I don't know if you guys are aware of it. Maybe not in the military, so much as the prison culture.

But you don't, the white tang out with the whites. The Mexicans hang out with the Mexicans. The blacks hang out with the blacks. You've got three factions in the penal system in California. You've got the airing brotherhood. This is the original prison guy.

Because you've got the black gorilla family. And you've got the Mexican mafia.

And when you go to prison, the first thing they ask you is,

and they use this term just like this, I'll say, "Hey, what car are you in?" And you say, "Well, I'm in the black car." If you identify with the blacks, or I'm in the white car, I'm in the Mexican car. So the people that--

Wouldn't that be pretty self-explanatory? I think it's going to fucking prison. Yep, but you know, there's a lot of people. I've gone on shows in the past, and not only podcasts, but television shows.

We're accused of being racist, you know, and it's just not true. You know, the East Coast Dragons or East Bay Dragons are a black club up in the Bay Area. They don't allow white guys in it. It's just an old black club.

You could say the same thing about them. It's not about race. It's just about the guys you were hanging out with. And the culture of that prison mentality.

why would they ask you what car you're driving? They just kind of look like-- Let me tell you in the old days, I tell you, when prison in Texas in 2011, it's completely different ballgame.

I had gone to prison in '86 and first time.

So now it's 2013 when I get to prison in Texas. And they're still doing what car you're riding in. Nobody asked for me because everybody knew who I was. But the average inmate, they said, "What car you're riding in?" And you tell 'em, and then they said, "What's your crime?"

And you tell 'em. Now, in the old days, there were particular things that weren't acceptable.

“Child and the Lester, you know, that's what not.”

Now they ask you, "What's your crime?" And they go, "Okay, what's your name?" And they go, "Let's go over the phone." And they call home and go, "Hey, look, this guy up.

It's everything's on the computer."

And they know immediately that this guy says he's a bank robber, but in fact, he's a child molester, or he's there for, you know, some sort of pedophile type crime. I mean, these guys aren't accepted on the yard. It's very difficult for them.

But these guys came and the club started growing. You know, the club got like a shot on the arm. The interesting thing is some of the old guys didn't like the way the young guys dressed. I don't know if this happened in the military at all.

They didn't like the music they listened to.

“They didn't like the philosophy was different.”

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How has the... What would I... How have the core values of the whole's angels? Changed from its inception to what it is today?

“I think the breakdown would be in the brotherhood.”

There's breakdown in the brotherhood. I think... And I'm just going to pick a date out of the fin air. And in the early '70s, late '60s, if you didn't build your motorcycle from the ground up.

And you wrote it into some party or some camp to party with everybody. People would know and you would not be accepted. You'd probably get asked to leave if not getting a physical confrontation. Back then, you have to understand. There was no warehouses where you can mail order all your parts.

Haves. I want to chrome this. Hey, I want a special clutch lever. Everybody was making that stuff by hand. Oh, you know, admit that there were a few people leading the way.

Like Dean Lahn's dick woods. These different bike builders up and down the coast. And you could tell, you know, geographically you could tell where somebody was from. He was like an accent. You look at somebody's bike and you go, this guy's from San Fernando Valley.

This guy's from the Bay Area. This guy's a San Diego guy.

And it's been diluted now.

You can go in the shop.

“And if you got $30,000, you can buy a hearty Davidson.”

And you know, you can be a biker. I hadn't lunch with the Davidson family once. And I was serious, but I was, I was giving him a hard time kind of joke. And I said, you know, and this is a true story. In the old days, you go into the Harley shop and you were outlaw biker.

They didn't want your business. They didn't even want you in there. And I was actually telling Willie Davidson in this son. I can't think of his son names. He was head of marketing at the time that they should give me a bike.

Because they were now selling cutoff vests. They were selling leather pants. They were selling bin downs. They were selling things now that when we were dressing like that in the 60s and 70s, they were condemning, you know.

And it just made this huge transition. So that we had a name for them. And as things progressed from the 70s into the 80s. And by the end of the 80s, we called them rubs. If you ever heard that term.

Rich, urban bikers. Oh, man. This is another thing that drove. So Rich, your minkers. This is embarrassing.

I want to tell you the story about what hold on. I got to cut a quote just a random. What's your favorite bike of all time? FXR. That was shit.

Right on. What about you?

“I bought this fucking big Barrothina chopper.”

When I was, I had never written a motor.

So yeah, what did you call him the rub? Yeah, I was a rub. So. So I told, I was I really interested in this stuff. And then I started contracting for the.

And which I'd never made that kind of money before. So I come home after the first contract. And I'm like. I'm ready. I'm going to buy a fucking bike now.

And so I went to the cutting edge cycles and St. St. Charles, Missouri. You know who who ran it man. His name was Mark. But I can't remember his last name.

But this time. But he had the he had. So I went in there. Ordered a bike got the big Barrothina chopper with a three hundred bird tire. And never written a fucking motor.

So I didn't even. I rid of dirt bike once about killed myself. So it finally comes. And I go on another point when I come back. And I'm like.

Oh yeah, it's in the box. He breaks the fucking box up. Wheels about. I'm like. Given the money cash.

About 35 grand. And. Expensive. Yeah. And my first bike.

And I'll go. I looked at him and I go.

“How do you start the fucking thing anyways?”

And he just looked at me goes, you just bought a 35,000 Or bike and he don't know how to fucking start it. I said, well, do you want me to return it? And I don't think he did. Yeah, he goes, all right.

Here you go. Trying to get it out of the parking lot. Pick kickstand out. I was like, you might want to deliver this one. Well, he did.

And then got home took off right to the bar. And there was a bike or bar right down the road from where I lived. One in there. And that's what I was. I went in there.

Everybody had their fucking chains and their vests and their bandanas and all the shit. And I'm like. Aren't you my fucking dentist. And then the other. And I'm like, this is like the shitiest bar in St. Louis.

And it's full of fucking dentist doctors and lawyers. Yeah. I'm out of here. This is like a costume party. So I went home.

What's that? You sell it? I kept it. I moved down to Florida. I went to biketoberfest and about killed myself doing that.

Did you ever go down on it? What's that? Did you ever go down on it? Yeah. Three o'clock in the morning with a check on the back.

But. And I didn't get arrested for whatever reason. Probably because it was biketoberfest. But the cops came and. Oh, yeah.

Did you get hurt? No. How about her? Nope. No helmets.

Really? No helmets. But have you been had you been drinking? It was three o'clock in the morning. I can't wait to overface.

You know. I don't really understand the inquisition here. So. Oh, man. Yeah.

It was a wild time. And how long did you keep it after that? I probably had it for. I don't know. Maybe.

Maybe three years. You know, I'll tell you if you wouldn't have gotten a bike. Well, I'm going to.

I always push the effects of ours because I've had them all in the Harley's.

And the FXR was probably. The best handling the most reliable bike Harley Davidson perhaps ever made in my expectations. The FXR sport.

And there was a gentleman.

“That worked for Harley, made Jerry Branch in Long Beach.”

And he had this port and polished heads and a carburetion. And he had to hold like little. A kit. You could have the put on at the Harley shop. And I became good friends with this money.

Uh. From venture hardy Davidson. And. So.

I got one of the first FXRs.

“That's great call me and said, Hey, man, you got to come down.”

There's this motors unbelievable. They made so many changes in the motor. Like I was looking at the motor over there. Uh. My friend.

Yeah. And. That motor. Uh, was the probably the next motor was the evolution. And, uh, it was all rubber mounted.

And, you know, it was just, it was just like a homey motorcycle. And. People are going to call bullshit. But it's the truth. I swear I changed the lifters and the valves, I mean the lifters and the cam, the followers and I don't even think I changed the piston and I had like 300,000 miles, which is damn incredible motorcycle.

Just wrote it everywhere, I've got some, I got a cool picture, a couple cool pictures, I'll get to you. But before that, built a bike, I went a bike in a dice game from the St. Slaves, this is in 1978, Bill Reed and I, Bill Reed was the St. Slaves, I was a hell's angel, we were like, you know, real close. I spent so much time with the St. Slaves, the gang intelligence cops, down in Los Angeles said I was a member of the St. Slaves, I didn't even realize I was a hell's angel, I spent so much time with these guys.

I was always with him and we got dice game going and he had got a bike from somebody, decided to want it. So we started this dice game and I wound up with a bike, I've got this picture, it's almost like a prelude to the next bike, Harley Davidson made. People will say, ah, bullshit, Harley Davidson and the copy, yeah, Harley Davidson copy this money was right around the corner, the Ventura Harley shop was on one street and then on the back street was the Ventura Hell's Angels Clubhouse. And money told us he would come over there to see what we were doing. I had a guy, David or Teva, like my closest brother, we were in there loving on each other or fighting, you know, that's one of them deals.

And I would do all of mechanical work and he would do all of fabrication and we came up with this bike and he came up with a paint, he's the first and I said, David, I want to all black bike and he came up with this paint, painted the heads, the front end, the cam cover, the primary cover, the whole bike was black and it was just highlighted with a little bit of chrome. And probably three years, two years later, Harley came out with what they called the night train, they copied it. But I remember that.

You remember the night train? Yeah, a bunch of guys on the Silthames bought a night train. Yeah, I mean, they were, that was a bike that David or Teva and I created. And everyone's a while, I'll put that bike up on social media and people will go, that's the bike that started the train for black stuff. And, you know, it was a combination, David and I did it together, but it was just incredible bike, that's a picture I'll send you.

It's a really cool picture. I'll pull it up.

Yeah, I got, I wound up getting rid of it because I could not contact just never find anybody to ride with.

But yeah, but you know what, I bet you, if you would've got, I'd lost, I got to tell them the story and I got lost direction. If you would've got an FXR, really good handle and bike. Maybe it's still be right in the day. Yeah, I didn't think it about getting another one. Well, tell you, FXR, a lot of the, I've got some new stuff out.

“I like the FXR, which you should do, you should go to the Harley shop and say,”

"Look, man, I want to bike comparable to FXR. I want this all about handling and performance. And, you know, they come now with big motors and 101 inches. This is stuff.

Like the first time I built a big hot rod motor in a bike.

And nobody would share nothing with you. You know, you'd have to learn trial and error, trial and error.

I didn't shave the valve skirts.

“They're hitting, you know, and I've got this in the ways.”

And they're just clippin' each other. And they're not enough to hurt anything. Perhaps over a period of time it would've been, I'm like, "What the hell is that?" So I take it apart, start inspecting everything.

I see the scuff marks on the pistons, you know, the skirts. Okay, I got to shave this, I got to cut this out. Then it's oiling. And what I didn't do was there's inside oilers on the motors back then. I should have plugged the holes and put outside oilers to the heads.

To get the oil up there in the heads. You know, I didn't know the trick.

And I finally, I said to some old man, I go,

"Maybe I didn't plug the goddamn oil passages on the barrels. And he got this big smile on his face, he was bingo." You know, and he wouldn't tell me. He couldn't tell me, but he wouldn't. He wanted me to find out for myself.

And I think that's part of the thing that's wrong with this country. And I don't think he's like thinking for themselves, you know? I think that's a big part of what's wrong with this country. Yeah. I got another brand of question for it because I popped in my head.

I'm just curious, you are out by now.

“Do you remember a couple years ago when Harley Davis and one woke?”

Yeah. What is a guy like you or just the hell's angels or any biker gang in general? What happened there? People were throwing the people were blowing their motorcycles up. Yeah, I mean, I think the whole world, I was in Spain.

I went to Spain.

I came back from prison, my second marriage is in a, you know?

It's crashing and burning, you know? Trying to keep it together for my son. I have a young son, he's 22 now. And it just ain't working. So I put out my second book, Marks.

And it's a fictional novel about my life. And so I, I get this message from this production company. You know, we want to option your book, you know? And so I, my daughter's my lawyer. So I put my daughter on him and all expenses paid.

You know, I'm going to Spain. I'm living in a luxury apartment to hold nine yards. So I go to Spain and I'm looking at the United States now from a distance. And it's just like everything. Just, it was like I walked into a different country when I came back.

And I'll tell the other time I had an experience like that. I'm in, it's 2002. I'm fighting a 59 count state rackitarian case. You know, anything you can think of, the alleged I had something to do with it. And the twin towers gets bond tagged.

And I'm in solitary confinement. There's a rumbling around jail that something's going on. The guard, the daytime guards have complete asshole. You know, I said, hey, what's going on? Because you don't need to worry about what's going on.

“You need to worry about what's going on in here.”

I said, yeah, but, you know, my family's out there. I go, there's a war. What are we doing, you know? And in February, that's, you know, 9/11 September.

And February of the following year, I finally get out.

You know, the case just collapses. The lawyers are just tearing it apart. It collapses. They let me out. They offer me time served.

You know, Tony Sarah, very famous lawyer in San Francisco. She said, you got to take the deal. George, you go to, you know, we fight this case. You're going to be fighting another three or four years. So, I take the deal, but I walk out of that jail.

And he asked me earlier about the brotherhood. You know, and I have a stage play that I do. I wrote a two-hour stage play. And in this stage play, I talk about walking out of that solitary confinement. You've got sensory deprivation in this sunlight.

You know, have been in a natural sun in the year over a year. And not only had the twin towers fall. They had fell. They were attacked. But the brotherhood in the club was a fact.

It was like the whole world. It was like the whole world shifted. And I walked into a different world. And I could feel it, you know. And it's like, you know, cancel culture.

I mean, all this shit looks starting to go on. And, you know, like you say, Harley goes woke. I mean, who would have thought that? No, who would have thought that? You know, I don't know, man.

I'm, you know, pushing 80 men. I'm going to hit 80 here pretty quick. If they were deemed themselves. I don't know. You know, I go to the Harley shop.

Now, I'm, you know, I still ride. I don't work on bikes anymore. I don't like men. I don't like bending over for more than 20 minutes. You know, they're trying.

But I bought my first bike for 200 bucks.

250 bucks. I can't remember what I paid for. You can't even get an oil. I'm going to get the oil change. The bill was like 400 bucks or something.

Yeah. You know, it's just a completely different world. You know, will it ever shift back? I don't, I don't think things shift back. I think we have to adapt.

“I think there has to be awareness here with, you know, people in the country.”

I'll, I'll give you a pretty example. My wife and I have a Jack Russell dog and fonds these. His name is 12 years old.

I mean, you know what it's like having a dog, man.

You know, he's everything to us. He gets diagnosed with his paw has cancer in her. So he has a toll removed. You know, we get everything done. We're out of state.

We have an appointment set up for him. We have a person to pick him up, take him. You know, the doctor changes the appointment. And we get upset. I said, look, we've got this whole thing shifted.

We're in 2000 miles away and we made an appointment. She goes, well, I called and left a message. And I go, did you get a confirmation? And she winds up telling my wife.

Beverly, I don't like the way you're talking to me.

I mean, you know, you know, man up a little bit tough enough. You know, you don't like the way somebody's talking to you. I mean, you're there accommodating people. That's what you're doing. And it's, there really wasn't that a line.

I was right there when I, when I heard what was going on. I just, I'm like, the degree of anger, you know, is like rising.

“And I mean, how, how do you deal with people like that?”

And how do you straighten it out? Will it ever be straightened out? I don't know, you know? Yeah. Is that how cultures collapse?

Is that how societies come to an end? Yeah. You know, this is appropriate time for me to talk about my speech. But when I left the club, but I'm going to wait because I know you probably want to talk about that. But it's, did Harley redeem themselves?

I don't know. You know, there's a lot of things going on in this country that need redemption. Yeah. And it's not happening. Well, let's get back to you.

All right. So we know that we know a culture interest in motorcycles and clubs. How did you get in? How did it all start? You know, it's interesting.

“So I'm running around with the question marks.”

And Dick Woods is the founder and leader of the question marks. And got some serious guys on the question marks. And Dick, the Hessian steel, one of the Saint-Massilabes bikes, they bring it up to the Ventura area. So the Saint-Massilabes were part of that.

Now the Hessians aren't in that one percent of coalition at this time. The Saint-Massilabes say, hey, we're coming up to Ventura Mount. Hessian steel, one of our bikes, we're coming up to get it. You know, we want you to know. So question marks.

You know, we all go down to the center's palace. And recover the bike. You know, a few people get lumped up some hurt feelings. Dick Woods comes in there after everybody's left. He thinks the vent's still going on. We're dealing with these guys, walks in the back door.

And somebody that holds a position of hang around with the Hessian stabs dick in the back. Dick becomes partially paralyzed. Never the same. The question marks slowly begin to unravel. Start hanging out with the Saint-Massilabes.

We go up on the current river. Doing a lot of runs. The Hessian steel show up up there. And in the group of held angels that show up, there's a gentleman named Old Man John. And he's an old man.

I'm probably mid 20s by now, 24, maybe.

And I mean, he looks like an antique to me.

“You know, I think he looks pretty good now that I think back.”

But at that time, I'm thinking, man, this guy's old. And he's riding his bike. And he knows it's seen that you live in this very small community of outlaw bikers. And the Saint-Massilabes had been talking about me. And Old Man John got word.

And the Saint-Massilabes had a different posture from recruitment than the held angels. And we talked about this a little bit earlier. The Saint-Massilabes, you had to ask to join. I didn't know I didn't know any of the rules. I'm just some kid hanging out with these guys.

I want to be like them. Old Man John sees me. He takes an interest in me. The hell's angels have a different posture in Los Angeles. They would say, you have any interest in the club.

And that's what Old Man John said. And he said, do you have any interest in the club? And I just, you know, I have interest in the whole lifestyle. John, and he gives me a card. And says, come to the clubhouse and visit me.

And that's basically how it all started for me with the held angels.

I started hanging out with them. You know, the interesting thing is everybody wants to know about what happens when you're a prospect. You know, what do you do when you're a prospect? You basically do whatever they ask you to do. You know, and it's a shit job.

It, a lot of menial menials jobs. You know, just get me a hamburger. You know, make sure the bear is cold, things of that nature. The real learning experience. And what really defines your tender and the hell's angels.

What you do after you make, remember. You know, a lot of people would just assume go sit on the couch and not do anything.

“But if you want to make a name for yourself, you got to engage, you got to get involved.”

And one of the first things I had to do. I mentioned the war with the Mongols earlier. I walked into a room.

And there was four or five guys in there.

We were having a beef with the Mongols. And they were talking about blowing up their clubhouse by the shop. And I immediately heard it was happening. You know, I told the guys that go look, man. I don't know if you've ever thought about collateral damage.

You want to put a bomb in a public business. I don't take that's a very good idea. I don't want nothing to do with it. I'm out of here. And I was a hell's angel at the time.

So they went ahead and put the bomb in there. The hell's angels put the bomb in. And the Mongols clump, like shopped. It's called a frame up. But it was kind of a clump house, like shop plays.

And this is why you were a prospect. You know, I don't think you're committed. I don't know what the trigger mechanism is or whatever. It didn't go off. So John comes to me and goes, so you walked in with those guys.

And you walked out. And I go, yeah. Because they don't think you're committed. And he goes, so I'll tell you what I want you to do. I want you to go get the bomb.

And I want you to retrieve it. And then we had a place downtown that we called the Armory. Wasn't a real armory. It was a storage place, a garage. And in the storage place, we had 2,000 pounds of dynamite.

We had British anti-tank weapons. It stood on a big, you know, I don't know what size show it was on a big tripod. It was a big as a car. And the shingun's in there. Handguns had a lay to make silancers.

John sent me to retrieve the bomb. Myself and the guy Jesse, we went and got it. And John said, just bring it back. Drop it off. I'll have the guys that made it dismantle it.

You know, because I kind of said, look man, I'm getting involved. I don't know what the hell's going on here. You hope he to go get some unexploded ordinance. Yeah, there's somebody that didn't know what he did. He didn't know what he did.

“Did the building with all of our fucking weapons and ammo?”

Yeah. And I just could go wrong. I go whatever amount. So this is the thing when you start getting deeper and deeper now. What happened was, John got fed up.

We were fighting with Oakland at the time. John got fed up. Step down, a new guy took over the club. It's guy Ray Glor. And Ray had somebody come in that knew how to make a bomb.

And what they did is they took a tire. They stuffed it full of dynamite around the tire.

And they used it as a pressure release trigger.

“As you pull it out, the stem comes up and the contacts hit.”

And then it goes. They taken in. And the bomb goes off. They go to change the tire. And Mongol gets killed.

His 15-year-old cousin gets killed. And now the war's just, you know, it's full on war, man. With these Mongols. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is, you know, people think, well, you know, you're a prospect.

And then you get into the club. And it's drinking in party. And that's the way it was supposed to be. But the dynamics of the problem with the Mongols. It changed the whole structure in Southern California.

And it's not something I'm proud of.

“I mean, I was there when the whole thing was.”

It turned an abrupt, you know, reverse or whatever you want to call it, wherever it went.

It was now, you know, it was basically the urban warfare.

Jingles and you've got to got jingles and redbeard. They get shot off their bike. Holy shit. They get killed by Guy Castilano. Guy is a president of the Senate.

Guys did now. You know, a lot of people make claims. Oh, you know, you're telling this and you're telling that. Hey, everybody's dead, but me. There's a couple of guys left.

And guys gone, who's gone in jail? Nobody. So I, you know, I tell these stories. But what was the beef over? The beef started.

Chester Green was a hell's angel from the Bay Area. There was another guy, whispering Bill Fyfer. He was a hell's angel from the Bay Area.

“These two guys wrote in, I can't remember if they came from Georgia or Texas.”

And they wanted to become hell's angels. And so they ride from California up in the Bay Area. And they're petitioning people, hey, we want to come around. We're cool guys. Well, we have a little thing we used to do back then.

We call the acid test. You can give people LSD. And sometimes you gave them too much. Sometimes by design, sometimes by accident. And one of the guys flipped out.

They were trying to restrain them. And he died. He's come to whatever they hog tied him or whatever. Trying to keep him restrain. So somebody in the upper echelon.

I can only speculate who they make a call. And they say, "Discide died. We've got to witness his partner still here in these alive." So somebody says he's got to go, man. And they decide to kill that guy.

So they killed both of these guys. They take them up to a well abandoned well in Northern California. Former member named George Weatherman. They dump him in the well. And whisper a bill is dying to cancer.

And somehow he gets tied into this and picks up a beef. He becomes an informant. Tells him there's bodies buried up at this ranch on George Weatherman's ranch. And whisper a bill. George Weatherman.

And Chester Green all become informants. And they testified against the other people that were involved in that crime. Of Chester Green refuses to go into witness production program. Which firm bill goes into witness production? George Weatherman goes into witness production program.

Chester Green decides he's going to hide in plain sight. He goes to Southern California and joins the mongles.

So if you read what law enforcement says they always say the fight started over the California

bottom rocker. It's not really what the fight started over. The fight started over Chester Green becoming a mongle. He had him been an informant. And Chester Green apparently convinced the mongles he was not an informant.

I don't know how or why or why they didn't check up with us. Nevertheless, he was now a mongle.

I would imagine that would not be a welcoming call.

Hey, we got your guy here.

“The one's to join the mongles, but we would just want to check and make sure he's not enough.”

Horpets. Yeah, you know, you'd think they'd do you some follow up. But, you know, and perhaps they knew what the consequence was. These guys would have said, oh, yeah, hold him in the back room. We'll be down here in six hours.

So that actually would have been a friendly call between clubs. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, shit. Yeah, okay. But it didn't work that way.

I guess Haiti, each other. Are you doing that time? Oh, okay.

They were this their own little motorcycle club.

And at that particular time, you know, the mongles were a new obscure club. And at that particular time, the health angels were a royalty man. You know, it was our world. You know, we were the number one club. And I know other clubs.

We were just as good and perhaps they were just as good. But in California, we were old California. It was our, it was our state, wherever we went. So we all decided to go to a swap meet. They got to pay attention as the convoluted service.

We all decided to go to the swap meet. Swap meets are new. It's 1977. They got this new deal. They do where people bring motorcycle parts.

And they put them on the floor and people walk around. And they, you know, they bid on stuff. I'll give you a 200 for that or whatever. They sell alcohol in there. They have loud music.

It was probably not a good combination. And that particular environment. So we're in there. There's nine health angels in there. And there's probably 40 to 60 Mongols in there.

Now there's two people in there. They're, their worlds are about to collide. One of them is a health angel, one of them is a Mongol. You've got a health angel that's wife ran off with the Mongols. And they walk in there and they see each other.

And the health angel and him and I are best friends still to this day. We talk, he's an ex-health angel now. He doesn't say where to anybody. He just pulls back and clocks this guy in the fights on.

“Now, how do I know specifically how many people were there?”

Because in the night, the group of nine health angels, there's a police informant in the group. And if you read chain of evidence, it's a book written by the police officer that was his handling him. So the cops have a crisis of conscience. Do they jump in and stop this conflict?

Or do they don't want to blow his undercover work? And let him continue fighting. They decide to let him continue fighting. So there's, we have specific numbers. You know, you get that book, it's a notebook.

So you've got nine health angels fighting all these Mongols. And one cop comes in there. And he's got a revolver. Oh, he's got a revolver, man. It's, you know, in 1977, he doesn't look like he's tenured very much.

I mean, he's just very young looking. And I remember that gun. Looking, I have two thoughts. The gun looked that big, but I also looked at the cylinder. And I go, he's only got six shots.

There's like 60 of us in here fighting. But Balzy guy, he stopped the fight. The Mongols broke and they ran. They didn't break because they were afraid.

They just, they broke first.

“And I think probably part of the reason was we were surrounded by the Mongols.”

We couldn't go anywhere. We were fighting. And we were all back to back fighting these guys. And they broke. And we broke.

And we had a short moratorium on the violence. And we said, let's not let this escalate. Oh man, John went to negotiate with him later that night. Which I thought was a bad idea. I was kind of coming up in the club.

I remember telling John, I go, look, negotiate man. I go, let him brew on it for two or three days. Let them consider what's going to be the consequence for fighting with the Hell's Angels. And I said, don't wait and go negotiate. And John was just a old school up front kind of guy.

And he said, go in the goddamn clubhouse. Or you're a new guy. You know, this is my call. And I said, okay, whatever man. So sat in the clubhouse all night.

He came back in the morning when the sun was coming up. Said, okay, everything's cool.

Johnson, I've had enough. He stepped down as president. New guy, Ray Glor, takes over.

“The shooting with Guy Castle Honor takes place.”

Kill Red Bird, Red Bird, Jingles. The bombing takes place shortly after that on raise orders. And probably within, you know, six months, there's six murders in Southern California. And one of them is Los Angeles Hell's Angels New leader. He had sent people over to the garage.

He had got busted. And then he said he wanted to empty the garage. But what he did is he sent people over to the garage and the police were waiting there. That's where the dynamite and everything was. And later that night, somebody went back.

Shot Ray killed him. But the interesting thing was, so you've got 2,000 pounds of dynamite. I don't know if the anti tank gun was still there at that time. But you've got machine guns. You've got silancers.

And they got out of the, they got, they beat the case basically.

“And how do you think, how do you think they beat the case?”

It seems very convoluted. But then when you, one of these young lawyers comes up with the idea. And he tells the prosecutor, because you're not going to win this case. And the prosecutor goes, why not? You guys are dead to write.

He goes, well, let me ask you this. Because if was there any dynamite in the garage when they got there. And he goes, no, because there's already guns in there. And they had emptied the garage for community and public safety. They'd taken all the dynamite.

Wow. So there was nothing in there. So in essence, they went to an empty garage. And this young hot shot lawyer tells them, how are you going to prove what their state of mind was? Did they think it was empty or did they think it was full?

You don't know. And they goes, I'm not putting them on the stand.

You're never going to know.

And he goes, you can't win this case. And basically what they did is they dropped the charges on two of the guys. And one guy pled guilty to possession of a machine gun without a license. And he got like probation, you know, time served in probation. He did a few days in jail.

So people think, oh, you get voted in the club. And it's all over with. Perhaps it's just beginning. Yeah, can we take a little break? Yeah, let's take a break.

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Well, what you were just talking about was pretty interesting.

“You were talking about the '70s for the Hell's Angels was a rough time.”

Yeah, the in the '70s approached the body count, started mounting up, and when I say body count, talking about the, what the police described as in-house murders are killings. The rumor was somebody had stole something from

Sunny, had broken his house and stole something. I don't know if it's true or not.

Ultimately, he paid for that with his life.

And it was a gentleman named Stork, one of the early informants, you know, prior to that time, nobody had ever flipped on the Hell's Angels. He had a pretty solid record, and then Stork was going to testify for the prosecution, in the case he wound up shot,

a very cold side of the road, unsolved murder, then you had Terry the Trump, who was in Hell's Angels 69. Sunny took exception to his popularity, and underneath everything,

sunning him were in business together. And there was some money owed of, and they were waiting for a big amount of money to come in. And what was the money for?

“LSD LSD? What other primary sources of revenue for the Hell's Angels?”

I think, you know, this is interesting.

I've always contended, and I still do even though I'm not a member,

I don't have to defend the Hell's Angels. I like to tell it like it is. The Hell's Angels is not a criminal organization, it's a organization with criminals in it. And people see opportunities, and they seize them, if you will.

And I think it was a lot of stuff going on. It was a gentleman named Osley. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. He was kind of the premier LSD maker in the Bay Area, and then for the West Coast.

He made drugs for the grateful dead, and it just kind of tentacleed out from there. It was a lot of money in it. You know, there's allegations of, you know, CIA stuff,

and whatnot, that it always seems like MK Ultra type stuff.

“Yeah, and it always seems that was there any validity to that?”

I don't know, MK Ultra is a real thing. Yeah, I don't know, you know, you know, you had Timothy Larry floating around in there. Do you remember Timothy Larry, the LSD guru? Oh, okay.

Toon in, turn on and drop out. You know, you had these things, and you know, we're coming out of the 60s of Kennedy's assassinated. And the Kennedy brothers assassinated. Martin Luther King, I mean, you have all these things happening

that really create an era of paranoia, if you will. I don't like today. Absolutely, you know. And look, how do I say this?

I guess I just say it, as I say it. You've seen things that probably the average person, they, they're suspect when you tell them. I don't think it's quite that way anymore. It's like I've seen things.

I used to tell people for years that, well, you don't know what the government really does. And, you know, people kind of, you know, things I said in the early '80s were ahead of your time. Well, they made me ahead of my time,

because they made a believer out of me. You know, when when investigations taken place, we got off track, but I'll swing back, or I went when investigations taken place. And these guys start going out of the guidelines

or how we want to describe them.

You, you have my cabinet awakening. You're going, wow, they're really doing this. And you learn real fast. I had a conversation with a guy one time. They said that I had ordered a murder.

And I had 19 conversations with a guy, well, the tape recorder only worked on two of the conversations. I mean, it's very suspect, you know, the listening device, a recorder, whatever they were using, didn't work the other, you know, 17 times.

“I think that getting back on that subject,”

sunny had some real hard feelings for Terry the Trump. Terry the Trump was a net movie.

You were said you remembered the movie.

You remembered the character. The club was going through a transition. We had decided that you could not shoot drugs anymore and it was obviously trying to kind of clean up some things. If you ever been around any junkies, you know what they're like.

I mean, don't do anything to get that fix. Terry kind of got pushed out of the club. That was the main reason. But shortly after Terry was out of the club, he got given a hot shot.

You know what a hot shot is? I don't know if you're, so it's going to know what a hot shot is. You do or don't? I do not.

“Hot shot is a mixture of narcotics that will”

makes you unable to breathe. I mean, you OD. Okay. Your body ODs. And you shoot it intervenously.

And you succumbed to the narcotics. And I was told by a high ranking guy in the Hell's Angels. I write about it in my book while writing to the storm. That he was ordered to go over there and get Terry hot shot. And he did.

And that's another murder. Then you've got Gary Robles, another strong-minded Hell's Angel. He wins up dead. He's got Harry the Horse out of San Francisco.

He wins up dead. And you've got this trail of people through the 70s that are casualties of political agenda going on.

I'm not sure why it just basically happens.

The whole thing seems to end in 1980 with the murder of my vice president Craig Koen, Jesse. It was his answer. We knew him by his, you know, all these murders are unsolved. So when people talk about tough times, the 70s were a real tough time.

You've got probably Rolling Stone did an article about it. You know, a decade of murders that remain unsolved by the, you know, in a house cleaning is how law enforcement describes it. You know, was it house cleaning? I think some of it probably was.

I mean, some of what we don't know. Some of it I think was personal. I mean, how high, how was this, I mean, you're the head of the Ventura chapter. Correct. So where were do these hits come from?

I mean, your, your VP gets killed. Right, murder assassinated. Well, I, here you've got a situation. And I'm speculating, here you've got a situation that. You've got a group of guys that come out of Los Angeles.

You've got murders down there through bombings. You know, pistol assassination or however you want to describe it. And they move up to Ventura. My speculation is somebody got suspicious. Jesse picked up another Jesse's the guy that got the,

remember I described the machine gun case. And he got to be, he was on probation for possessing machine gun without a license.

“He picked up a unit, are you familiar with the term mayhem?”

No. Mayhem is, if you and I get in a physical altercation. That's, you know, that's like an assault and battery. If you were to bite my ear and take part of my ear off, then it becomes mayhem.

And that's a much more serious degree of felony,

Yeah, so Jesse got in a fight with a balancer. Jesse was kind of an unassuming guy.

“But he was one of the toughest guys I'd run into in a long time.”

He goes to this bar by himself. The balancer, the guy's hell's angel stuff on the balancer starts insulting them. They went and get them to fight the balancer's kind of a big guy, bigger in Jesse. Jesse beats him up and bites the tip of a zero off just for a good measure. Get to mayhem, beef.

Somebody becomes suspect that, you know, what if Jesse wants to make a deal? So obviously, Jesse was involved in something in Los Angeles that has made somebody nervous.

And basically, you know, they're going to eliminate the weak link.

Whether Jesse was a weak link or not normal ever. No, he's gone. I don't believe he was a weak link, but somebody did. And, you know, people think that all these things are structured. Like I'm going to make a mess.

Yeah, and sometimes people take things upon themselves. I don't know, you've probably been in combat situations. Well, hold on.

“Is there a structure like that? So what is there? Is there a structure?”

But if, look, murders a serious offense with no statute of limitations. And you don't want to get involved in a conspiracy. You know, people will come up and talk to me about, let's do this or let's do that. My first thought was, is this guy on the level?

Or is this guy recording me and trying to set me up?

I got arrested in 1986 because the Mexican mafia said they were going to kill a former associate of ours. And I got in this dialogue with this Mexican mafia member who actually had become a FBI informant. So he's got me acknowledging that they're going to kill this guy. And I wind up getting a beef. I beat the case because the jury said, well, you know, Christie had no interest in killing this guy.

You guys had an interest in killing him. But it was a hoax. I don't know if that makes any sense. It does. What I'm asking, I want to know, how was the organization?

How was the organization broken down? What is it's hierarchy? So is the Ventura chapter? Each charter. Each charter.

Each charter. Each charter. Each charter is autonomous to itself.

“That's why the federal government has never been successful trying to throw a rackitarian charge.”

Are you familiar with the Rico? A little bit. Yeah. Rico is a specific crime where you can take people's underlings. And take the crimes they've committed and say they were directed by the hierarchy.

So it becomes a rackitarian influence corrupt organization, Rico. And so if they get two or three guys and you get, say a group of 10 guys that they say are part of the established hierarchy in the health angels. And then you get these guys saying, yeah, I killed this guy. And I did this here. And I sold drugs there.

And I did it all to be a host of this guy. This guy, and this guy came down from the top. The order came from down from the top. I completed the criminal act. They become the informants in the hierarchy.

The guys in the structure get pumped. We didn't structure the health angels like that. Each charter is autonomous to itself. Hmm. I don't know if that makes sense to you.

It does make sense. But what I want to know down is who approves, who approves a new charter. So when you started the charter and the entire. Yeah. Who approves that?

I'm laughing because I just grabbed the guys and moved up there and started it. Because my philosophy was, if you're a real hell's angel, you don't take orders from anybody. But you do what you want to do. And that kind of goes back to when I got trouble in the military. You know, I take it up on myself and do something.

But getting back to your question. That's the way I did it. Was it appropriate? No. But it was effective because I got my charter and it lasted.

You know, it's still going today. I'm no longer involved. But it's a vote, you know. If like when we got ready to vote, the.

Dirty dozen, I've never heard of that club.

Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

The dirty dozen was a club in Arizona.

A very strong club. They ran the whole state.

“And in mid to late 90s, we voted them in.”

As hell's angels. And the vote was across the United States. I read charter the United States. I had to vote on it. They got to do unanimous vote.

And they. They became a health angel charter. But. It's kind of complex because we're independent. Yet we're structured as an organization.

But we don't take like somebody from another charter can't come and say. On the international leader. And this is what you guys are going to do. Somebody comes and turns says this is what I want you guys to do. Say, well, this is Ventura.

This is our community. Don't come town and tell us what you think we should do within our community. We know it's best for us as an organization. You know, get out of here. But.

It makes for a good argument in in a courtroom. Let's go back or head or wherever we're at to 1979, 78. The Hell's Angels in the San Francisco area getting dieted. For racketeering. Are you familiar with this, guys?

No. Okay. So 1979. They get dieted for racketeering. They have one trial.

And it's a mistrial. So you got two big trials. It's very expensive. They're not successful. And you're going to identify with this.

You know who the prosecutor was in that case. You don't because you don't know about the case. But Robert Moore. What's the young prosecutor in San Francisco. And he prosecuted the Hell's Angels.

Not once. But twice. And Judge County was really down on the Hell's Angels. He thought that, you know, we should have all been found guilty. Robert Moore realized that the way the Hell's Angels was structured.

And the way we were presenting things to the jury that they were never going to get a recoil charge.

I mean, the case was a catastrophe. They bring in one of the paid witnesses. And this guy became a government to extract himself out of his own problem. Plus to receive some financial money. First testimony.

And he comes into the courtroom. And the defense attorneys start questioning him.

“And they said, you did business with this guy, right?”

And they said, yes, we did. How many times, you know, he goes to testimony. And they said, we'd like, is he the courtroom? He says, yes, he is. We'd like you to point him out.

The paid informant identifies Tony Sarah. Now, Tony Sarah is not a hell's angel. Tony Sarah is one of our defense attorneys. But when he doesn't know about Tony Sarah's a guy with really long hair. Looks kind of like he could be a hippie or a biker.

And he identifies Tony Sarah as the guy he's been doing business with for the last three or four days. The courtroom erupts and everybody goes crazy.

And then the guy admits, I've never done business with the hell's angels.

The government offered me money and they said they could get out of jail if I testified. So he had situations like that happening. These guys, they become so zealot in their quest to find the hell's angels guilty. Or anybody for that matter, that they become blinded. You know, just as this is not get served.

And you know, I just, and maybe it's unfair for me.

“I keep thinking, you know, I think about you as a seal.”

I think about you what I know about your past. You understand these things that things like this happen. You know, it's not what is, what's the name saying that movie. It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. You know, we didn't have these problems.

We did not have these problems in the seal teams. We did not.

No, not.

We can't say never, but not often.

Yeah, there's been some incidents. But I mean, is the leader, is the president of the Ventura? I mean, how many people are under you? I'm going to be in that chapter. Well, it's, it's 25.

“25 members at its peak, but what you have to understand, you know, you've got 25 members.”

Like, a lot of people go 25 members. That's not very big. Well, that's pretty big for a health angel charter. And what you have to understand. Each guy that is in the club, probably has five to ten people that follow him.

And we'll do anything for him because he, he holds that position of prestige. And that where a lot of people go, well, that's not prestige. Well, in the outlaw bike world, you know, being a health angel is a very prestigious position. Gotcha.

And so I'm just curious, is, is the president of that club?

And you have all this, this inner, I don't know what to call it. I guess it's not inner club, but hell's angel on hell's angel killing. Right. I mean, what is going through your head? What are you telling your guys? I would imagine that would be mass confusion.

Yeah, it's parents. It's friendly. It's friendly, it's killing friendly. Yeah, and what you say, you have no fucking friends.

“No, and, and it becomes, and that's, this is, I think,”

how the outlaw bike culture made a 180 degree turn, you know. It, you're sitting a room with somebody. And do you know who Jay Dobbins is? No. Jay Dobbins, if Jay Dobbins was here, like, you know, I like Jay.

He's an ATF. He infiltrated the housing. All can. No, who this guy is. Yeah. Now, Jay Dobbins was sitting here.

He would say everything I've said that he would say is bullshit. But that doesn't mean I don't like Jay. I like Jay. He just had a different perception of the hell's angels. I think that guys like Jay Dobbins were amazingly effective,

because, and I don't know if the government realized it at the time, they didn't get a lot of convictions. They didn't get long sentences. But what they did to the hell's angels, and to people in the outlaw bike world, and that, in that culture that are in their 1% or type clubs,

they put doubt in confusion into the room, because you're sitting in that meeting room, and you're looking around, you're gone.

“And I think I said this earlier, you're going to go, who's going to roll next?”

Who's going to make a deal? Who here is actually working with the cops? And who is actually working for the hell's angels? It becomes confusing. I, do you know who Anthony Tate is?

Tony Tate was a hell's angel in Alaska, and he became an FBI informant. For no reason, he didn't get busted. He just decided he wanted to infiltrate the hell's angels, and he went to the cops and goes, "I think I can do this."

And I think the cops kind of laughed at him at first,

and then he started making some progress, and the FBI, this was with the local cops in Alaska, and the FBI came in it, and they basically promoted him as a hell's angel, helped him rise up in the ranks. He became West Coast Secretary.

No, not West Coast Secretary, West Coast Chairman. Well, him and I sat in a meeting. What's the West Coast Chairman? I'm not West Coast Chairman. He became the sergeant in arms.

I was the West Coast Chairman. I was the guy that kind of fishated the meetings. All of the West Coast? Yeah. So then there is some type of hierarchy.

Well, it's, it is, but it's an unofficial, an unofficial capacity. Okay. You know, it's not like it doesn't give me any power to, okay, you're going to do this. There are an organizer. Yes, you know, I'm facilitating the meeting.

I'm keeping the meeting on point and trying to keep any discussion of anything illegal out of the room, because despite what people think, you start talking about illegal activities in an official health angel meeting.

You're going to be asked to stop or escorted out of the room. So Tony Tate sitting next to me, anybody that wants to look this stuff up, they can look up Anthony, Tony Tate. He was an FBI informant.

He was a health angel.

He's sitting next to me in a meeting. On his left arm, he's got a cast.

“And I look at the cast and it's brand spanking new.”

It's white, white, you know, a brand new cast looks like. Well, imagine you're an outlaw, biker. And you've got a cast on your arm and it's just pristine white. I mean, maybe very suspicious.

I never liked Tony to begin with, but it made me very suspicious.

Looking at the cast. Well, inside the cast was a bug. And he was trying to lead me into a conversation. He wanted to blow up the outlaws in Kentucky. And he basically brought his request to a meeting.

You know, it was like, probably 12 health angel presidents from the West Coast in this meeting. And if, you know, we would have gotten gaged in a conversation to kill these guys. It would have been a conspiracy beef. You know, I had enough insight in a tune of feeling that the guy was no good. I steered the conversation off.

Confronted him about his cast, why he didn't have any road rash. He left the meeting. Went to Sunny's house.

They had got suspicious going to this cast.

He wasn't going to work. They knocked his cast off. And they put the bug inside a new device that was just kind of coming up on the scene. And you're going to laugh when I said it's called a pager. And so this gives you time for him.

So Tony goes to Sunny's house and he's got this pager on and he's got a bug in it. And the ironic thing is he's at Sunny's house and he gets a page and it's his handler. And this isn't stuff. I'm just making up this stuff. You can research this stuff.

It's all out there on the computers. It all became part of the case in Kentucky conspiracy case murder case in Kentucky. He's asked Sunny because I'm not called for work.

I got to let me call in real quick.

And Sunny said you got to go ahead. This is stuff's all recorded. He calls the feds. And they say you got to get him to say this. And he hangs up the phone, takes a conversation and guides it into this.

And I'm going to blow these guys up. I want to make sure it's okay with you. Just going to be a lot of collateral damage of saying things to that nature. Very cavalier of comments. And you know, Sunny wedge up getting a conspiracy to commit murder beef.

The trial was in Kentucky. He did just about four years for that. And I think while Sunny was away in prison. He was in federal prison. The club went through a lot of changes.

And when he got back in the mid-90s, I don't think he liked the direction the club was headed. And you know, kind of skipped here. I skipped there and passed it in.

“But you have to understand, Sunny got that cancer call.”

He really delicious power. After he had done that a couple years later. He had this revelation that he wasn't going to die. And he wanted to take his power back. I don't know if you experienced that in any of the seagull teams.

But if somebody is a leader, then they relate you to their power. Kind of tough to get it back. I know you guys are structured more where somebody has a rank. And that rank is probably a description of what they can't do. What they can and shouldn't do.

But you know, in the Hell's Angels, it's kind of a doggy dog world. It's the strong survive. And I think that by the time Sunny came back from his last stay in prison. I was the last time I went to prison for any length of time. His power was very diminished.

Interesting. But I think they would have more respect for him. Well, I think he was respected. But you have to understand. Sunny was taken the position that Tony Tate was the Hell's Angel of the Future.

“And that's how he was introducing him to people.”

He was referring to him as the Hell's Angel of the Future. And he really was somebody that created chaos. I mean, not good. How so? How would he do that?

Well, he set up Sunny with the prison. I was so feral. He's the one that did it.

And he was introducing him as the Hell's Angel of the Future.

Wow. It was a misjudgment. So you know, what happens is people look at him as a leader and go. Yeah. Maybe he's slipping a little bit.

I'm sure you've been in situations where you've got somebody in a leadership position. Maybe making a questionable call. You guys probably got to look at each other and go, just right or wrong. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine you guys following somebody blindly.

Now, I know what you mean. Yeah. Wow. How did you become, you know, one thing that we didn't cover is how you became the president so fast.

“What was it about you that you think the guys respected?”

You know, I think it was, I think a lot of it had to do with the structure of my life. And I attribute that to the Marines, to the Department of Defense. My martial arts training, you know, really disciplined. I liked a party that I was strictly a recreational drug user.

I never had a drug problem.

I could walk away from the party on Sunday morning and not worry about party. And again, until the next party showed up, I didn't go looking for the party. If I came upon a party and I wanted to participate, I did. But that's a real luxury when you live in that world. I don't know what was going on in the military, but I think it was a point in time.

No colleagues were becoming a problem. True or not? I mean, I think not colleagues are always a problem. Yeah, I think. Yeah, it became a problem in the health angels.

“I think that probably one of the worst things that ever happened to the health angels.”

And the out-while-bite culture was a meth. I mean, it's just, it's a mine altering physical and emotional drug. People think they have this unlimited power and control.

And the reality is it chips away at you.

It's actually does not sound first. Similar to the military. I don't know. I don't know. But what are the revenue streams?

The revenue streams are personal private little cartels that people set up themselves. They have to be eye-professed that Tony Tate was very, very successful in infiltrating the health angels and setting the health angels up. The reality is he had access to people in Canada, people in Europe, people across the United States. And after, like, a three-year investigation, I think he busted serious offenses, maybe 10-13 guys. I mean, that's not a lot of people that if their contention is you're controlling the methamphetamine market.

And you, or living off this, you can only get 13 guys. I think the people that were making the big money, they didn't want to share it with anybody.

“That's why my contention has always been we're not a criminal organization.”

It's an organization saturated with criminals independent from the structure of the club. The structure of the clubs about brotherhood, motorcycles, and writing, but it certainly taking its toll. It's a roadie. You know, it was a roadie. That's one of the reasons I left.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then revenue streams. So you have your club members. The club needs money, but maybe the club doesn't necessarily know where the money is coming from. So then you have all the members of the club run in their own extracurricular businesses. So what's that when they participate? A lot of the guys work.

You know, you got to be fair about that. A lot of the guys work. They're construction guys, they're truck drivers, but there's a lot of little hustlers. So how does the club make money? How does the club make money? How does the club make money?

How does the club make money? How does the club make money? The government makes allegations. The club is worth billions of millions. Well, perhaps there's that kind of money running through a particular group of individuals.

But the club is a non-profit organization. It's registered with the United States government as a non-profit organization. They don't make money off their trademark. So it's very complex issues, you know? And, you know, the club was very simple at one time.

You got a motorcycle.

You had a beef with somebody. You got it off your chest. Perhaps maybe you threw blows.

You know, nobody went and got a knife. Nobody went and got bullets.

“The worst thing was, you got to buy breakfast, man.”

You lost the tussle. You know, that's how it was when you went in. It's made this transition that nobody trust anybody. Looked on you're sitting in a room with a bunch of guys. Imagine being in a room with some guys.

It's like probably going out in a mission. Are you still working for the CIA? I know you do.

So I get being in a room full of people you don't fucking trust.

But this is the thing. And maybe this is the proper way to explain it. You go from a group of seals you're on a mission with. You love these guys. You believe in these guys. You know you can count on these guys.

You may not agree with all of them all at a time. But you know they're there when the shit comes down. And then you make a transition. You're trying to accomplish the same thing. But now you're in a room of people. You're not sure where they're coming from.

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Let's go back to right before the break. We're talking about how do the clubs make money?

“Okay. I could mention non-profit. I'm curious why were the clubs set up to be non-profits?”

Were all the chapters non-profits? Well, deep the club. The Hells Angels name, the logo, is people claim this and I think there's a lot of merit to it.

That the Hells Angels brand is one of the most powerful and recognized brands of in existence.

Whether that's true or not, I guess that's something for debate. When we established in the late 70s, we thought, we thought established in trademark board. We've got to protect our trademark. I was on the board. A gentleman I do not get along with to this day, flash was on the board. Done a lot for the club. Done a lot for the trademark.

I'm not going to take that away from Irish. I was on the trademark board. You know, Irish was murdered. Different individuals. I think there might have been seven or eight of us on the board. We used Limbach, Limbach, and Sutton. Some very powerful trademark attorneys on the West Coast.

They were located up in the Bay Area. They handled, I may have some of these wrong, but I don't think so. They handled Levi Strauss. I know that one for sure. Coca-Cola, perhaps Pepsi-Cola, Mastercard.

“The rest of my couldn't really remember.”

They didn't listen to me in the health angels.

So you had these trademark lawyers representing these powerful trademarks,

recognizable trademarks, Levi trademark, Mastercard, whatever it may be. I get a phone call from Mr. Sutton. He said, "George, I like to talk to you." And I said, "Well, you know, I'm in Southern California. It goes that's very important. You come up here.

I want no misunderstandings. I want to tell you something. So, you know, I'm going, this is not going to be good." So I go up there. This is back, like I said, in early '80s. You can fly to San Francisco for 30 bucks.

There's a plane every 45 minutes, you know, there and then one back. So I jump out of plane. I go up there. And Mr. Sutton says that the other trademark brands have discovered that they're also representing the health angels. And he said, "They don't want their trademark brushing up

against yours because it's not a good image. The health angels don't have a good image." And I mean, you know, how can you argue with him? He can't really. I understood. But they helped us set it up, so it was a nonprofit organization.

And the idea really was it was about protecting the trademark

because what happens is when you have a powerful trademark

and you don't use it, people will start doing it like when they consider fair use. And then ultimately, they'll claim you've abandoned your trademark because you're not using it. Well, you know, the American government set up as a capitalist.

You're not using it in a monetary manner. And they'll try to take your trademark over. It's very complicated. I don't understand it all. But I know Mr. Sutton is the guy I dealt with most of the time. And he taught me several things about trademark.

And Mr. Sutton, you got to control the narrative. You know, what is your trademark stand for? And what does it mean? You got to control the narrative.

“You have to protect it from people infringing on it.”

And if you don't do that, that's how you lose control in your trademark. It's just like, are you familiar with the JKD Gekondo Bruce Lee's martial art thing? What about it? Well, he, their family didn't protect the trademark. And they lost control of the logo.

And the JKD thing, it's, people can use it. It's fair uses what they call it. And that's what we were trying to avoid with the Hell's Angels. We were trying to make sure that the trademark was protected. It was set up as a nonprofit organization of, I'll tell you, I'll give you an example.

We immediately got it shut down.

And we protected our trademark. We sued them. They settled out of court for, I think, $60,000. We gave the money to Ronald McDonald House, Council for Children, because we're a nonprofit.

We couldn't profit from our logo. But we could protect our logo. But if we received any money, we had to give it away. Another thing is, you know, who Roger Corman was?

“Roger Corman was, remember all the B movies in the '60s and '70s?”

Well, you're too young. '82, huh?

Yeah, I know, I'm just, I'm thinking about that.

Roger Corman did all the B movies with these were upcoming stars. Like, one of his directors was Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola, Jack Nicholson, Peter Fonda, Dennis Hopper. These are guys that all started in his films. He made a movie called "Nom Angels."

And he used our logo. We sued him and beat him in court. And like, they paid us, but we had to use the money, not in a profitable way. We gave some of it away.

I can't remember what we did.

I remember he gave us $60,000 for infringing on our trademark.

“And these are the kind of things you have to do to protect your trademark.”

But that has nothing to do. I know what you're thinking about, what your question is. What type of money are you bringing in as a club? Are you talking about street money? Listen, money.

I'm talking about money. Where do you get the money for the building? Where do you get the money to throw parties? Where do the money to have a warehouse full of guns, dynamite, and bombs? The dynamite was stolen.

The dynamite was stolen. But I'll give you an example. We started doing benefit like dances and parties and whatnot at the Venturne Clubhouse. The capacity of that place, including the Praget 500 people there,

and we would charge five bucks an entry fee. And then we would raffle off things. We would buy raffle tickets and you get a drawing. You win a letter code or you win a case of oil. Whatever it may be.

You sell shots of liquor behind the bar. You sell hamburgers, hot dogs, whatever it may be. We made a lot of money that way. I personally felt like by the mid-80s, after all these guys got arrested by Tony Tate,

stealing drugs, man. It was kind of a dead end. Everybody's going to get busted. And Ventura, I suggested there wasn't a few buss in Ventura, but they weren't real successful.

They came after me in 2001. But I mean, the case collapsed. They couldn't prove anything. They were on viking and they were getting viking and from an airman named Joshua Adams. He was my son was involved in that Georgie.

Joshua Adams, Georgie, where Julio Betillo was another guy. He was in a gang called Avenue Gangsters in a couple of Ventura Hells Angels. But out of 25 guys, you had two Hells Angels. And the rest were just associate guys getting involved.

“And I think it adds substance to my argument that people do illegal things.”

But they can find it to themselves because they want to keep the money. They don't want to risk their freedom and harass and make $100,000. And then bring it in and turn it over to the club. You know, and have to share with people that did, I mean, it's just, it's a serious thing. Yeah, it's great.

And so, you know, so if money was not in issue and that the club is a non-profit,

Where does the, because that's obvious.

“I mean, it has to be, you're talking about the 70s and all the, all the, all the,”

inner club murders and assassinations and all the shit that's happening. What's motivating that? He says not, it's not, it can't, it's, no, I think it is money. There's no money then.

I think it's money, but, you know, look, I never got deep enough into the military to understand

JLCs and personality conflicts. You know, my attitude of the military was, you know, you have an MOS. You know, if you fill that job, you take your orders, some of them I didn't like. But, you know, an outlaw type structure. I mean, you've got people making moves, trying to control power, trying to control areas.

You've got the dynamics, and you got the dynamics of who has more power in me or him. It's kind of like, you know, who's dick's bigger. It's kind of that male mentality, I think, and I think that. It was very primitive thinking. It's not an old version.

It's primitive culture. Because I mean, I don't, I don't even understand how you would take over a territory.

“If you do not have the funds to give what you need to do, to, to enable that.”

Well, when you say take over a territory or are you talking about our college trade,

or are you talking about perceived power, are you talking about real power?

I don't know. I mean, whatever you're talking about. Well, you know. I mean, if you're saying that the guy, a lot of the guys in the clubs had regular jobs. They did.

And then we're, and then we're talking about taking over a territory. When I think about taking over a territory, I think it's a, I think of gang wars. Sometimes we're thinking of military take over already. Yeah. But I mean, maybe you could do it psychologically.

You could do a brute force. But perhaps a combination. But it would take, it would take money, right? I mean, even if you'd have to pay your guy, I would think that would be a full-time, full-time thing. Hey, we're going to take this fucking territory.

You guys are going to have to take off work.

“Well, then how are they going to make that a living?”

Well, it doesn't work that way. But you know, that's certainly a legitimate question. You know, you're just, you're going to need gun. You're going to need logistics. Right.

Logistics cost money. Right. That's true. But if you're living in a small town, you're living in the town of Ventura. There's, we come into the town of Ventura.

There's eight bike clubs there. There's, let me see what's count them. There's the mocks, the mongles, the carnolis. The syndicate. The question marks who I'm friends with at the time.

And the orphans. So that's seven clubs there. And you just slowly run everybody out of town.

I mean, you know, that's basically what we did.

You know, it wasn't for, to control the narcotics. It was, to control what was going to transpire in that town. Who was going to come in that town? Who was going to be allowed in that town? And it sounds like perhaps a lot of bullshit, but it's not.

I mean, you know, the, you mentioned the term primitive. I think the outlawed bike culture. It's very primitive. And there's a lot of instincts going on. It's like in 1987 when I came back from prison,

I've learned something that was really unique. And it just resonated with me. The dad got the prison. I mentioned Guy Cassey alone earlier. That he'd killed Redbeard and Jingles.

Remember the mongles? Mm-hm. So I go down to prison. Guys are there at terminal island prison. This is before they had the holding centers.

You, if you got a beef and the fed, you went right to the prison in terminal island. And then you went back and forth between court and prison. And the prison until your case was resolved. And then they send you off to a particular location. But when I got there, I asked Guy.

I said, "Hey, Guy, who do we have a problem with in here?" And Guy said, "We don't fight with anybody in here." Now this is the war with the mongles was going. We had a problem with the outlaws back east. We had on and off problems with the bandedos, constant problem with the pagans.

But when I asked him that question, he kind of startled me and said, "Well, we don't fight in prison."

I said, "What do you mean we don't fight in prison?"

Because we don't fight in prison. And so what there was was an unwritten rule of non-violence. So when I came home from prison, I wanted to apply that on the street. I thought, "Well, for fighting on the street, but we're not fighting in prison. It would make more sense to me that we would be able to interact with each other.

If we're on the street with all the luxuries of everything we have, our bikes, our women, the drugs that people want,

“the alcohol, the party scene, or whatever, why couldn't we apply that to the everyday lifestyle of the outlaw biker?”

And I started petitioning people, you know, set up a meeting with the outlaws, set up a meeting with the mongles,

eventually got an amnesty on the violence with everybody that lasted till 2002. And it just kind of all unraveled. But that position is not popular in the outlaw biker culture. They see it as a position of weakness to me, to petition people in the health angels and the outlaws and these other organizations to not be violent, it takes more nerve than the act of violence. You know, your manhood's getting questioned, your loyalty's getting questioned. You've got all these things going on.

And I had some really interesting dialogue with the leader of the bandedos, the guy Harry Bowman, George Weggers, international leader of the bandedos. I mean, these were people that wanted to hold under their power. These are guys now, you talk about structure. These are clubs that hold absolute power. The leaders do. And both leaders of these clubs, you know, one of them's in jail to do them life. The other guy talk of died in jail.

Because the racketeering law worked on them because of the way they were struck on shit.

“So, I think the bike culture at large is very primitive and it's thinking, you know, it's very primal.”

And you start fighting. It's pretty easy to get along with people in the 60s. You see another guy on a outwaw type look with his bike and even if he might be in a club, you kind of want to hang out with him. You kind of want to stop, talk to him, hey, you broke down, you need anything. That was kind of the essence of the lifestyle. Then the 70s come, you know, it gets a little bit tense.

The war with the outlaws breaks out back east by 1977, the war with the Mongols breaks out in the west. And you can't, you can feel the shift. You ever feel the shift in something, you feel the shift and you go, you know, what's going on here.

And it just ultimately changes and changes and changes and unravels until 1986.

“I go, what are we going to end these wars? Why are we fighting all these battles?”

Not only are they not productive, they're endless. And, you know, you as a military man, when you guys go into some place, you have an objective, right? You're turning to achieve something and I used to ask people, I go, this is like these wars that were involved with. They're like a train with no destination. And I was just going to ask you that.

There's no destination. And I'm trying to reason with people. So I'm in a dialogue with Sunny. I've worked something out with the bandedos on territory. We'll stay in these areas. They'll stay in their area. There'll be no issues, no pushing and pulling.

And, you know, I go to Sunny and this isn't an open meeting with, you know, 12, 15 leaders in there from different charters. And I say, look, I want to meet with the bandedos. And I said, I want to take you with me. I said, if you, if Sunny Barnes just shows up at this meeting, they don't know, I'm an earnest. And I go, we'll be able to negotiate and get whatever we want.

Because I got the man with me, Sunny Barnes.

And he said, because I just don't fucking like him.

“And I think what it really was about, he just maybe like the violence.”

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, how do you explain something like that? It's, it's very primitive. But there you go. Yeah, a lot of you go. It's the inability to change your fucking mind.

And why is that? Because you're worried about whatever everybody else thinks. Exactly. You know, it's, it's absolutely, and it's, it's that like the guy that, you know, discovers the other tribe with a cave in a, you know, going out.

That looks a lot more comfortable and standing out in the rain. And so what do they do? You know, if they decide, you know, we're going to get Joe and Harry and Bill. We're going to go over and maybe we'll act like we're going to be friends with them.

And, you know, we'll be with our clubs that they've never seen before because they've never seen weapons.

I mean, I, you know, I don't know. I mean, I can only speculate how this stuff happens. And, you know, I find it fascinating because I've been in the middle of it. And I watch people and I know how they think. And sometimes people are just unpredictable.

You think you've figured them out. And then something happens and they go sideways. You know, did you total, just popped in my head. I'm, you're in this through Vietnam.

Really? And I think a, I mean, I don't know about today. But there was a lot of draw. There was a lot of interest in bike or clubs from my generation coming home for more. A lot of interest.

Vietnam sounds like there was even more interest. Right. And I think those are some of the baddest motherfuckers on the planet. The guys that served in Vietnam. Right.

Did you have a lot of those guys coming in? We have some. Not a lot. I think by then. Do you, do they have a,

They have their own club? They did. They have some vets. They started their own club.

And we weren't never at odds with them.

But we, you know, we never got close to them. But, you know, I used to argue with Sunday all the time about certain things. But Sunday, sometimes you would say the most profound things. And when, kind of had free reign. And I mentioned that early.

We were kind of the kings, the hell's angels, man. Everybody knew who the hell's angels were. The hell's angels were in the paper all the time. Hell's angels had movies made about him. Hell's angels were as hell's angel that.

And perception perceived perception achieved. If you will, I don't know if you understand what I'm saying. Sometimes people think your tough perception is reality. Yeah. Think your tough.

“Because that's what they read in the paper.”

And that's how it's perceived on a movie. But you've got these guys coming back from Vietnam. And they're going to fuck those guys, man. I'm not going to do what they say. And Sunday and I got a big dialogue about it.

One time, we were both on the same page. We weren't arguing. He goes, you know, fucking Vietnam changed everything. And I said, what do you mean? He goes.

What do you weigh all of that? I just, I look forward to hearing Maria go with those. Yeah. And I said, what do you mean? And he goes, you know, he goes before the war.

He goes, we told people to do shit. They just did it. He goes, now they're, oh yeah. Get off your fat ass and make us. And that was basically it.

There was a lot of people that got military training. And you know, we talked about our roots within the military. But it became diluted over a period of time. And now you've got a bunch of guys that have gone off to war. Sunday was smart enough to know all that.

“Do you remember when Sunny Barnes announced to President Johnson?”

He wanted to send a squad of health angels. You know, he wanted him to be trained and all that stuff.

Look, Sunday's smart enough to know that was never going to happen.

But God damn, it was great publicity. I mean, you know, it was all over the news. And you know, talk about control of the narrative. I mean, Sunny knew how to control the narrative. You know, he wasn't real sophisticated.

But some of the stuff he came up with, you know. You know, it was short of brilliant. But I think that Vietnam war changed a lot of things in this country as far as people doing something.

And I'm speaking from experience as an old man. Like, I'm almost 80. I'm going to be 80 here. A little over a year. People come back from Vietnam.

It was a very unpopular war. Now you're a military man. So you know, and you respect all those people that were in the country. But there were a lot of people in the United States that didn't find them very attractive. Didn't find them very heroic, and it was wrong.

But you guys came back from the United States getting attacked at 9/11. And it was, it's a whole different ballgame.

“I mean, you had to, I think it was almost like the country was unified.”

And it's at the beginning. Yeah, in the beginning. But it gets, it all gets diluted.

The poll never got as bad as Vietnam coming home, not even fucking close.

But it did get, it did. Yeah, I get very under appreciation. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

Before you guys go into combat, I don't know if this is true. I have a couple of friends that are seals, ex seals actually. Did they use to give you guys a psychological evaluation? Every time. Before you went into combat.

No. No. And initially, initially, to get into the teams. Yeah. And did they give you one after your missions?

No.

When you came back, that's the thing that kind of alarmed me.

That they put you guys in these precarious awkward positions. And you come back.

“And it's like, I mean, what do they, what do they do for you?”

And you know, my daughter goes through it. I don't do anything. My daughter goes to my daughter's lawyer. And she takes advantage of military. I can't remember.

Veterans court. It's a special court. It's criminal court. Better civilian. What's up?

Veterans court. Yeah. And she's used it several times. And it's beneficial for the veterans. But it appears that.

And it brings these people back and just kind of turn them loose in. I'm going to take a chance here. And it equates us together. I'm sure some people out there. Because I was in bullshit.

“But I'll tell you when I came back from prison.”

And so in 2007, there was a fire bombing. Two fire bombings at tattoo shops in Ventura. Of course, this said I was responsible. I gave the order. I didn't certainly didn't do it.

But I gave the order. By 2011, I get indicted. 2013, we start going to trial. The case starts collapsing. My daughter's like hammering away at stuff with another lawyer.

They offer a sweet deal. Because I'm on count six, seven or eight. I'm looking at mandatory minimums of life. You know what that sentence is. You know, you get found guilty in one of those counts.

You go to prison for life. It's just a mandatory sentence. So I now come back. It's 2014 or 2015. And I stay on parole or probation, whatever we want to call it.

Fed's changed it. They don't call it parole anymore. They call it probation. So they don't probation until 2018. So that's 11 years.

You've got the investigation going on. You know, the cops are crawling around or investigating you. They're asking questions. Then you get the beef. Then you've got the pending trial.

Then you do your sentence. And then you come home and do your probation parole. Whatever you want to call it. Not once. Not once did they ever ask me how my reentry into society was.

All they wanted to do and all their interest was. They thought I had a bunch of money hidden somewhere. They were looking for the money. And they wanted their fair share of any money I had. And any money I made I did a show outlawed chronicles.

They wanted to take all my money. They said I wasn't a shouldn't profit off my criminal past. You know, you can imagine what they were saying. Who is this? That was they.

United States probation office.

So they never once asked me.

I don't know what the count is now.

There's an over a quarter million dollar.

A quarter million people incarcerated in the United States. I mean, it's a big business, you know. And what's interesting is everybody. And each family, it all it seems at one time. People didn't talk about family member going to prison.

It's kind of embarrassing. It's now. It seems like every family, at least got one family member that went to prison for something. Because it's become such a big business. I guess I'm just using this platform to complain that, you know,

they put people in a position. They put you guys in a position. Like I said, you come back.

I mean, just went over there.

You engage some people. You know, I don't know what you did or didn't do. How does that affect you guys? I mean, it's that's out. It's horrible.

Yeah. It's the, it's, I mean, suicide is suicide rate is insane. The divorce rate isn't insane. The addiction rate is fucking insane. I mean, but I don't think it's a conspiracy.

“I think the country literally just doesn't give a fuck about veterans.”

And they've proven that over and over and over since fucking World War Two. They just don't, the country doesn't give a fuck. The government doesn't give a fuck. The people don't give a fuck. So if they did, it wouldn't be this way.

Okay. So we've got a 98% conviction rate with the fans. And I don't want to insult anybody. I'm not comparing X convicts to military, whatever. Trying to make a, you know, I'm trying to make a comparison here.

But not that in the same manner that some people may have misunderstood. But what I'm saying of the conviction rate is 98%. It's pretty goddamn high. And, you know, the feds, there's a lot of veterans in federal prison for just various things. A lot of people said they've been putting in scams like selling them weapons, doing this, doing that.

I was in Texas. There was a couple of Navy seals down there. I didn't get close to them. I don't know what they were there for. Didn't ask.

You don't ask people what they're doing. But why are the prisons so full? And I think a lot of it is, in 1986, I fought my case. I pled not guilty. And I fought my case.

And I beat it. I proved that the government framed me. The jury came back and said they wanted to send a message to Washington to knock this shit off. In 2013, my daughter and I, you know, we talked it over. She didn't think she could win the case.

She goes, "I think because of the publicity, I think because the outlaw bike movement has gotten so big and it's a worldwide phenomenon." She goes, "I don't think you're going to get a fair trial." She goes, "We got a hammer at these guys. Chip 'em away to where they offer you a deal."

“And I think that's why the prisons are so full.”

And you know, what point am I trying to make? I guess I'm just getting on a soapbox here a little bit. And I know it's something you're very passionate about. Yeah. You know, people don't get it.

You know, I had a prison. I'm an expert witness in trials for the defense.

The defense lawyers never had in the outlaw bike cases.

I also had a prison consulting business. And you know, I would try to help people come to terms with what was going on in their life. And, you know, I have this story I tell. I had a guy call me when he was a client of mine. And I tried to touch base with him two to three times a week.

And every time he went to court, when he got done with court, if I wasn't in court with him, sometimes it wasn't good for me to appear in court with him. Because in California, I'm very recognizable and especially law enforcement. It's not appropriate. And he was really down.

And I said, "What's the problem?" You know, he goes, "Well, you know, George, they're treating me like a criminal." And I said, "You are in criminal."

“I think sometimes people just can't come to terms with the situations they put themselves in.”

Now, I don't know what is for Vets. I tell you, if I had all the money in the world, that's probably what I would focus on.

But I mean, I had to make this guy understand.

They're treating him like a criminal, because he bezled a bunch of money from a movie company. And I don't know just don't know what we're heading as a country. That's all. I guess I'm just venting a little bit.

“I think a lot of people are wondering where we're heading as a country.”

And I think they've been thinking that for a long, damn time. Yeah. But, you know, it's like I was successful for about a decade. And having her namnesty, you know, got along with the outlaws. Got along with the banditos. It was a war.

And you're familiar with the Nordic bike war? No. It was just a wholeation's war between the health angels and the banditos in Europe. I was instrumental in along with George Wagers, the international president of the banditos. And stopping that.

The Scandinavian governments, the Danish government, specifically petitioned the United States government. They wanted to felons to be allowed permission to enter the United States. So George Wagers and I could sit with them and try to negotiate a piece. And the Hell's Angel Representative, his name was Blondy. I don't know if it's real name. I can't remember it.

He was a convicted double murder. The Scandinavian government convinced the American government to let him enter the United States and come to this meeting. The bandito representative was a guy named Jim Tenien.

“I think he was an international leader of the banditos in Europe.”

So we had George Wagers, myself, Blondy, and Jim. And we had a special number that if anybody in law enforcement interfered, we were to hand him the piece of paper. And I don't know who was in Washington, but they would tell them to stand down and let us finish doing what we were doing. I don't know how long the visa was for that special visa to get into the country to negotiate.

They did, and they went back. They went back and settled the war. They publicly met with the politicians and the lawyer. And it was crazy. They announced it over a Danish TV that the war between the Hell's Angel of Banditos was now over. It was quite a scene.

But everything seemed to be gone. It was very unsteady. I was constantly negotiating with people trying to go to Europe. I went to Europe one time. I went to Amsterdam.

I was refused to entry at a five day hold on me. I was meeting with the banditos and Hell's Angels over there. I tried to put the lid, there were some fires and we're trying to put them out. Fuse me entry. Put me on a plane to send me back.

Just by chance I wound up in Texas wound up meeting with the banditos anyways. I met with them in Texas instead of Europe. I wanted to go to Europe because I thought it would be more effective. But so we had to understand the violence with the outlaws. The banditos.

The Mongols.

I was trying to negotiate with the pagans, but I never really got anywhere with them.

They just had no interest in negotiating. And everything was shaking. How was your negotiate? How would I negotiate? What are you negotiating?

Peace. Stop the violence.

“When I ride through Chicago, is it really necessary to shoot at me?”

I'm riding from point A to point B. I'm not there. I'm not trying to set up a town charter. I'm not interfering with anything you guys got going. I'm just trying to get from one point to the other.

And I was successful, but the bottom line is we said earlier, it's just primal.

That whole outlaw culture is very primal. And people just didn't want to be perceived as being weak. I just before the arrangement with the outlaws was suspended. The peace talks were called off. I talked to Taco one day about it.

Because my positions is threatened. There was an up and coming guy named Spike.

So basically, told Taco that he was being perceived as weak by the club.

And Spike must have been very convincing, because if you look up on the internet, United States of America versus Harry Bowman, you'll see that he put a murder contract on me. They actually came to Ventura, not once, but twice. I think the first time was just surveillance, the second time they came in there, you know, to shoot me whatever reason they didn't. Why do you think they wanted to kill you?

I think that Spike was an ex-ranger, Army Ranger, very aggressive guy. And I think he had his eye on Taco's job as an international leader. And I think that he felt, since this would solidify him, at least to put him up at the same level as Taco. Taco was a real ruthless guy. He was trying to negotiate it for probably three years, met with him twice in person.

I lost count of the phone calls I had with him.

But Taco died of cancer and prison. They wouldn't even give him a compassionate leave to come home and die at his own bed. They let him die in prison. That's not so much that he disliked him.

“I don't know if you want to call him describing this topic, Lieutenant.”

He's doing a life for rackitarian. It just, these guys just don't want to be perceived as weak. And Taco said that to me. I said, you know, Taco's not a popular position. The world we live in.

But I said, I think it's a necessary position.

You know, my thought is, every time we shoot or each other, we get a case and somebody goes to prison or somebody gets killed. I mean, we don't win anything. You know, I think the government wins. I think that like I said, you know, you talked to Jay Dobbins.

He has a particular thought of what we're all about. He thinks we're all about crime and criminal activity. Things that club does it as a whole. I interviewed Jay myself and I, you know, we had a corgial conversation. I, you know, I don't agree with anything he says.

I can't get him to concede that it's not the club. It's individuals in the club. The club wasn't established for that reason. The club was about writing, brotherhood, building motorcycles. And probably why I walked away because we lost sight somewhere along the way.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely attracts a certain culture. It does. Aging is inevitable. And if you're anything like me, you feel it a little more every year. Sorenies, tight joints, recovery takes longer than it used to.

We can't stop the clock, but we can take care of ourselves.

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Why did you, what was it that made you walk away? Suddenly, I continually were fighting about a protocol rules. He was bending the rules. I, every time I'm back in front of him, it would turn into a big chaotic scene. In 2002, had a member in Josh Harbor.

He went to Cave Creek to party and have fun and somebody killed him. He was a Ventura Hells Angel. And we're on the street to want enforcement was that he, that was a message to me from Sunny.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know, Sunny and I never had that conversation.

Subsequently, six months later, four months later, Sunny's, one of Sunny's guys got murdered. And long for him said that was my answer.

“I think that was kind of the beginning of the end.”

It still took me like another eight years if you will. But I just felt like we were losing the sight of who we were trying to had. You know, it's like, and when you're a leader, you know, you want to reach a goal. You want to try to achieve something. And you have a vision and if the people around you aren't sharing a vision anymore,

you know, maybe you're not an effective leader anymore. You know, I think Sunny, I have a saying, you know, don't make yourself bigger than the position you hold. And I think Sunny did that. I think he lost a concept. He made himself very large.

Don't fall for him. Oh, shit. Sunny had done several things that I didn't think was appropriate. You know, I confronted him. The club seemed to be divided. The, uh, there's a lot of speculation from law enforcement who was really running the club with me.

Was it Sunny? And, you know, you guys both in Ventura? No, he's in, he was in Oakland. Then he went to Arizona. Then he returned to Oakland.

Uh, he. Pretty much did what he wanted. Yeah, sure. That was Sunny Bardsher. You know, and love it, hated or condemned.

I mean, it just was what it was. You knew he was going to do that. True outlaw. Yeah, absolutely. And I respected him for it.

And I hated him for it at times because he didn't do what was best for the club. I felt like he did what was best for him. He was a type of guy. I'm sure you ran into this in the military. You run into guys.

It will not reverse themselves. You know, he can show them in black and white. It's wrong. They will not accept responsibility. So, probably around 2008, 2009.

“Can't remember exactly where I started thinking about.”

Maybe it's time, you know, to move on. And it was one thing that kept stopping me. It was my ego. I was going to be the guy that used to be George Christie. And I'm really difficult time.

I did it kind of on without telling anybody. Didn't even discuss it with my son. Discuss it with nobody. I went to the meeting, explain what I was doing.

First of all, they misunderstood.

They thought I was stepping down as president. And I said, no, this is it for me. I've, you know, I've given me 40 years.

And I gave what I thought was a kind of a passionate speech. You know, I said we're fighting with the banditos again. Fighting with the Mongols. We're fighting with the outlaws. Fight with the pagans.

And now you guys want to fight the pagans. This was a bike club we had gotten along with since the mid-60s. And they wanted to fight these guys.

“And my position with them was when I get phone calls from another club and says, hey, what's the problem, George?”

You know, we've always gotten along.

Why is there an issue now? And we can't find a way to resolve the issues. That kind of makes me feel like we're being bullies. When you pick on somebody, whether you win or lose, when you pick on somebody, you're being a bully, you know? So I just basically said, look, we're fighting wars on four fronts.

Now we're going to have a fifth front with the bogos. And I said, don't forget law enforcement. And I said, look, if you look at your history, when societies or cultures run out of people to fight, they turn inward.

And I said, I don't want to be here for that.

And I said, I think I'm played out.

I give you guys 40 years. I'm going to move on. Took my patch off. I folded up. I put it on the edge of the table by my chair where I sat at a chair at the head of the room.

“And I remember I said, look, we've turned into the people who rebuild against.”

I go, we're not outlaws anymore. And I said, I want to get back to the roots. And this is what I'm going to do. But I said, I want you to keep in mind that you guys need to do something, because it's going to be a problem in the future.

About six weeks later, four weeks later, something transpired up in Reno, Nevada. Jethro, who's president of San Jose, who's a good friend of mine, got an argument with one of the vogue and they shot it and killed it. So, Jethro was now murdered by the vogue.

So it's a full-on war at the funeral in San Jose. Steve, I think it was Rua's. He was a health angel. And Steve Tassen, another health angel,

“who had a reputation of just being fierce as a fighter.”

And he started picking on Rua's tone. Rua's, it was he was responsible for Jethro's murder. That he should have protected him better. He was the president. They started arguing, and Steve Tassen's reputation caught up with him.

He punched Steve Rua's and Steve responded by shooting him three times. So, you've got a funeral, five to seven thousand spectators. You've got health angels being buried, had been murdered, and you've got two health angels. Now, fighting, who's responsible, and one of them gets murdered.

It was just a chaotic scene. I wasn't there, but I told him it was a chaotic scene. Rua's snuck out of there somehow. They couldn't locate him. The police thought that perhaps Rua's had got thrown in Jethro's grave site.

And they exhumed Jeth's body a couple of days later. They were open to the casket, but they pulled the casket out. Looked underneath it to make sure Rua's wasn't there. Eventually, they arrested him three months later.

So, what I predicted basically came true.

Was I happy about it? No, not happy at all. Jeth was dead. Jeth Rua was dead. Steve was dead. Rua's was going to go to prison for three years. He put on a defense because Steve tossing.

I said, in a fierce reputation, he had killed somebody. With his bare hands before my punch and he had hit a guy at a bar. He was a security guard at a bar. He hit a guy and the guy died from the punch. So, I left, I left in good standing.

Bad, wouldn't allow anybody to communicate with me.

“And basically, try to cut off any influence.”

He thought I still might have. And he attacked my character and think slowly started unraveling for me. Made a deal. Went to prison. He pled guilty to one. What was it account of?

Interferring, you're going to love this. Interferring in interstate commerce. By fire, bombing, they said, "I ordered the fire. "Bombing by fire, bombing the tattoo shops. "I interfered with their ability to make money."

So, it's interfering in interstate commerce. It's a federal crime. I mean, it's kind of one of those things.

What's that? Interesting.

Yeah, it's kind of one of those racketeering crimes. But, you know, you're not re-coded. It's a federal crime. I went to jail. I came back.

“Sunny got worried that the history channel had approached me about doing a six-up-sode series.”

Told me I couldn't do it. I did it. Told me I couldn't write a book. I did it. He threatened to sue St. Martin. The book publisher I did the book with.

My first book, "Angio." Just was real careful. You know, what we put in the book. What we said, what wasn't said. You know, the book was successful.

I walked on to the successful.

I wrote a second book. Like I stated earlier, I wound up going to Spain. The book was options. And spent three years in Spain. I came back. I was single now.

I buried a girl that I'd known since I was 12. We were a lot of long friends. And kind of started over. You know, when I asked you something. Okay.

What do you think happens when you die? What do I think happens when you die? You know, honestly, I do not know. I believe in a higher power. I, you know, I like the microdose.

And I, I contemplate on where I'm going and what I'm doing. I think perhaps hell is here on earth. Or perhaps if you leave this planet. And you're not satisfied with how you conducted yourself. I mean, even bad people have to have that little voice in their head.

Telling them, hey, man, you're fucking up. I just, I just truly believe that.

“And the reason I believe that is interacting with all these men.”

For decades. Some of them vary dangerous. And I think they're biggest enemy. Most of the time was themselves. I don't know.

What do you think? What do I think? Yeah. Well, I'm a Christian. Oh, you're a Christian.

There you go. Okay. You go to heaven or you go to hell. That's about it. Well, I'll tell you.

I got, uh, I came back. I was very satisfied. Really, uh, my wife and I, having a lot of fun. And I got a phone call. And that was the premise through this book.

Crossing the Ruby Cod. I, uh, got a phone call from a club member. Club members are supposed to talk to me. And they can be punished by, you know, an ass to an all the way to being expelled from the club for communicating to me or with me.

And the guy said, "Do you recognize my voice?" And I said, "Yeah." And, uh, I said some smart ass to him. I goes and this is my rabbi. And, uh, he said, "Look, I called you."

And he used the term, you know, his close friend used to call Ralph. Are you familiar with that? We used to sunny. His name is Ralph.

Okay. So we would say, "Hey Ralph." You know, like, if I was wanting to really be serious,

And I want you to listen to what I'm saying.

So anyways, the person on the other hand said, "If you're going to reconcile with Ralph,

“he gives you need to do it because he's not going to be around that's longer."”

And, uh, I got up out of bed and made myself a cup of coffee, and I started thinking about all these decades. I'm interacting with all these people. And, in the morning, I started writing this book. And it took me three years.

Uh, I wrote it. And the ending, the ending was true, but it was, I felt it was soft. And I just said, "Hey, you know, I'm going to pull all the bullshit away." And, uh, because people ask, you know, "Why didn't you go back?"

Or, "Why don't you try to reconcile?" And I explained all that in the ending of this book. But, uh, it's interesting that, uh, you know, you tell me, uh, you need to go to heaven or you need to go to hell. And, uh, I'm not going to say what it is,

but I have a message for Sunday at the end of the book. But anyway.

So, you know, it was a test of Shopify.com.

So, how did you become a Christian? That interest me. How did I become a Christian? That is a long story. But, um,

“I was going through some serious internal battles with yourself.”

Yeah. And, uh... So, uh, emotional instability or... Very troubled with the world. Okay.

It's very angry at the world. It's angry at the world a lot to do with kids. A lot of, I've started diving into... A lot of the shit that happens to kids, sexually. Okay.

And, uh, exploitation trafficking. Sure. You know. Yeah, you know. All that kind of stuff.

And I got really deep into it. And, um... And then... Yeah. Some of the minor and possession are a minor attracted persons.

Have you heard about this shit? There is a section of the country who wants to make people that are attracted to kids. A condition. And they want to call them minor attracted persons. And that makes it okay.

That makes it okay. And they're mind. That's going to be a problem. You know. Let me tell you.

So, okay. Let me finish. So. Now, it's very... I still am.

I'm very vocal about it. And, uh, I just didn't really see people doing anything. And a lot of the people that I... Um... Respected...

Leaned that way politically. And I just could not understand how you could... To, how you could... Um... Be okay with that.

And, um... Anyway, so having this internal battle in my head and... And, uh... I hit, uh...

Basically, tried to convince myself.

Sean, this... If you're the only one out here fighting this shit who fucking cares. Maybe you're the one that's fucked up. Maybe you shouldn't be doing this shit. Maybe you should just let it happen.

It...

“Not that I'm fucking stopping anything anyways, right?”

But, uh, it just really troubled me. And I just couldn't understand, like, how was happening. And, um... In... In short, it...

It... I was on a hike, and I had felt like I had... Uh... It just surrendered my fucking soul to the... To the...to the devil, you know.

But I didn't really believe at that time. And I walked through this gate. We were on a... My wife for our vacation. I walked through this gate.

And this guy comes up to me. And, um... I tried to talk to me. I don't want to talk to him. Obviously, I'm in a fucking mood, right?

And, uh... And I had smoked a joint before I went on this hike. I tried to call myself down. That didn't do it. That's the worst work.

Uh-huh. And, of course, my wife turns around and talks to him. But I'm like fuck, you know. I just want to go to bed. And, um...

So I turn around and I look at him. And he fucking looked at me in the eyes. And he read every single thought from front to back in my fucking brain. And articulated it.

And said, "You don't need to be worrying about these kids."

That's not your battle.

“And then he went through all the other things.”

There were stuff about trans kids. There were stuff about China. All these things were going on in my head. And, uh... After the first thing I blanked out

because I couldn't understand how... It's almost like it's too much information coming in. I hadn't even articulated this shit to my wife. And this guy's just yanking thought after thought after thought. And he was just a...

I've never seen him. Never seen him. It never seems like a... There for a week. We were there for a week.

And, um... You know, I was a seal. I contracted for say. I pay attention to security. And, uh...

And a lot of those guys that were working at that gig, knew who I was from the podcast. So, I... You know, stopped to talk to them.

Never saw this guy though.

New the other ones. Never saw this. Never saw him again. Never saw him before. Never saw him again.

This was the last night. So, he reads my mind. Legitimately reads my fucking mind. And, uh... I walk back.

I'm walking back to my bungalow and, um... talking to my wife and I'm freaking out because I'm... Tell her I go, "Holy shit.

“I think that was fucking God talking to me."”

And, um... Before that, there's some other things that happen. I'll shorten it up a little bit though. Three things happened. There was another guy.

My best friend died of a heroin addiction. He was, uh... He was a... He was a seal. We contracted it.

See, I ate together. Um... I didn't wind up joining a biker gang, obviously. But I did go down to Columbia and got really wrapped up the drugs down there.

And he was with me. And, um... So anyways, point being, we were very, very close. He was my best friend. And, uh...

But he was also always known as a protector.

He was a pro hockey player before it was a seal. He was a seal. He was a CIA contractor. And each one of those segments of his life.

“Everybody around him considered him to be a protector.”

It's every level. And, um... And I had tried to save his life. He had moved him with me. Duttered it up.

Obviously, you know, you know, the pout end. Anyways, we go there. I'm in the Super Vulnerable position. There's this guy running around all fucking week. He looks exactly like my best friend.

We go out and town. He was out and town. If we're on a hike, he's on a hike. It's always really odd. We're at the pool.

He's at the pool. If we're at the fucking restaurant, he's somewhere in the restaurant. Turns out we'd been there all week. We walked back to the bungalow from the gate. Maybe a three or five minute walk.

The entire time we were there, it turns out. There was only two things, two, two rooms in this bungalow. It was like a duplex. He was in the other fucking side. So first time I'd seen him.

So that was a sign. Then I walk in the room. And I went there. And I don't really have many friends anymore. And especially here in town.

And I had met another seal. And his name was Dan Cerello. And me and him had a special bond. He owned a handful of hospitals and had a very successful security company. And I have this.

And it was one of the only relationships I've ever had in town where I don't fucking need anything from you. And you don't need anything from me. So we don't have to worry about the asks. And we can just sit down and be friends and not have to worry about what the fuck do you want from me. Well, he died. And that really bothered me because it was my only friend.

Here. Young guy. No, old guy. He died. And my opinion had a great death.

He died on a hunting trip with a son. And I mean, I wish he was still here. But if there's a way to go and you get, you know, and anyway, so as soon we walk in the hotel. Me and my wife are having a discussion. My cell phone dings.

I don't answer because I'm in this heavy discussion. Like what the hell is going on? How do this guy just read my fucking mind? Check the check my phone afterwards.

It's his daughter who I never met.

And she sent me a text that said that she had just walked into her dad's gun room for the first time since he had passed. And he was in there. And he told her that he wanted her to reach out to me because I was his. I was the person that had become the closest to him. And then I knew a side of him that she didn't know.

And for those three things to all happen, damn, they're simultaneously, literally within minutes of each other. I knew. Something somebody was trying to fucking tell me. And I could go on because the shit continues on, but it didn't continue on until I got home.

And I had called a friend of mine who wound up being a spiritual mentor.

“My name's Eddie Penny, who's a silt him six guy.”

And I'll send you the episode. Okay. And I served with him very briefly. I wouldn't say we were close. We did a deployment together.

And then he went on to development group. I hadn't heard from him for fucking probably 10, 15 years. Then I brought him on the show. And he talked about his how he found faith. This guy.

Back when I knew him before. He's just a fucking savage.

Never in a million years would you think it would happen to this guy.

And he told me this and just like this, told me how it happened.

“And I released his episode on Christmas Eve.”

Every single person sends them his brought up Christ. One way or another for over a year. So I called him and he started kind of telling me what some of the stuff means. And then my whole team here turns out I didn't even know this. But my whole team here very well versed in this.

So it was almost like after that moment. I was just completely surrounded with people that could guide me in the right direction. You know, I hope that happens for you. Well, there would be nice. You know, I'm thinking, you know, I heard you talk about micro dosing.

I have another, you know, I don't know how seriously take psychedelics. Or if you even do plant medicine. But I have another best friend.

And so when I go do that, I am, I always have an intention that I want to get out of it.

If I do a heavy dose.

“And I did a journey with another one of my best friends.”

His name was Nick is Nick Kevelidas. And he's still a good friend of mine. He was a Marsock Marine, Marine Rader. And we did a journey together. Out in the woods several years ago.

And I asked him afterwards what his intentions were. And he said he just wanted to know if he had a relationship with God. Because he wasn't a believer either. And in the same fucking journey, I looked at this waterfall with him. And all a perfect sculpture of Jesus Christ's head was etched in that waterfall.

And we looked away, or I looked away, looked back, still there. Walked away, still there. Was there all fucking night? Until the next day I woke up and then I did not see it. So the initial guy could have been an angel, you think.

Well, I will finish the story because now you're interested. So then I come home and I told you I called Eddie Penny. And I told him, what had happened to me? This will happen in Sedona. And Eddie started telling me, all right, this is what this is.

And my wife's telling me to, like, Sean, God's always been around you.

You just don't fucking take the time to pay attention. And that's why you never see it. But look at your life. Look at what's happened. He's everywhere around you.

And so I call Eddie, I tell him this. And I laid it night down in a fire. And he starts telling me, you've chosen a side now. All these attacks are going to happen. The spiritual attacks are going to start to happen.

Because nobody gives a shit if you're sitting on the sideline. But once you choose a side, the attacks will start to happen. And so he starts telling me about guardian angels. And that everybody has a guardian angel. And I'm very new at this.

Even though I grew up Catholic, I still, I just, you know, I didn't believe I was a kid. It was forced to do it. I didn't really care. And then lost pretty much everything what I went to war.

And the next day, I have a meeting with my IT guy. And I thought it was going to be about IT shit. And he's a very devout Catholic.

I remember at noon. It was a long call.

And it wasn't about IT shit.

“It was the exact same conversation that Eddie Penny had had with me.”

And those two don't know each other. Couldn't be farther apart from their personalities. They would not get along. And he starts telling me spiritual attacks are going to start to happen. You have guardian angel.

They've known you since before you're born. And I'm still laying out, okay, whatever. So I drive home for a late lunch. I have lunch with my wife. Tell her about these conversations.

I'm driving back to work. I look at the odometer or the, you know, gas left to eat. Says 444. I look at the clock. It also says 444.

And then I think back.

“And I go, this is 4 hours and 44 minutes after that phone call with Adam.”

So I text.

One of my guys who you know, you just met him.

And I say, hey, look up what 444 means. I'll be at the office tonight shortly. Get to the office. He has a pulled up on his laptop. And he goes 444.

What do you think 444 means? 444 means your guardian angel wants to know that they're watching over you. You know, when I got it, I spent a year in solidarity and environment. And I came out of that be very bitter. You know, I try not to appear bitter.

I'm not bitter. I understand police come after guys like me. You know, and it's just all part of the game. I don't hold animosity.

But when I came out of that solitary confinement.

I'd spent a year there. They were using my mom as a bargaining chip. She was dying a cancer. And they were using my mom as a bargaining chip. And to get me to plead out and not fight the case and whatnot.

And I came home. She died the next day. She came to see me that day. And the next day she died. And I had, when my dad died, I had taken his wedding ring.

And I taken all the diamonds out of it. And I put them in a heart for my mom. Because I wanted her to have my dad's diamonds with her. And she was in the hospice. And somebody stole the diamonds off of her.

I was so mad. I went to the administrator and said, I don't know what happened. Who you got work in here. I said, but tell them,

the smartest thing for them to do was walk on the venturb here and throw it off the end of the pier. Because I've ever seen anybody with that on. I go, I'm not asking any questions. I'm just reacting. I don't care who has it on.

And, like I said, I was so mad and so angry. I just, everything was unraveling. The club wasn't the same. It didn't feel the same to me. We were in the midst of a new era with,

you know, the chation was almost been laden. And everything that had happened. And I had a guy come to the house. And he was a minister. And he came there to tell me that I had garnered the angels watching me.

And he goes, I just want you to know. He referred to them as some sort of good dogs that protect you or something to do with the Bible. I didn't quite understand it. And I didn't say no. You know, I, he was sincere.

I mean, I knew he believed in what he was telling me. And I had, when I was in solitary confinement, they quit. Give me a meal, they started setting my mail back. And you know, they started playing little games with you. And like in the month of December, I had 350 pieces returned to the people that sent mail to me.

“And the only thing I had in solitary confinement for a while was a Bible.”

It took everything away from me. And so I was reading the Bible by the whole lot. But I came home.

And they're mysterious, you know.

Like how the fuck you're still sitting there? Exactly. Exactly. When everybody around me has been, there's only a couple of guys left.

“They're dead and I, I think of, I met with somebody that I was very close with.”

Somebody I trusted with my life, that was them recently. And I know you understand this. Him and I had a conversation about things that happened 30 years ago that I couldn't have that conversation with anybody else. But him because we, we both understand. And I, I suppose what the hell is fucking going on, man.

Anyways.

So I, which, I don't pressure off what you say.

What you say and what you just told me. It's, uh, it's interesting and it tracks my attention, you know. But I, I don't know. It's like, I have this little hard head in this, you know. And I, you know what I'm talking about.

I know exactly what you're talking about. You know what I'm talking about. It's kind of like, you know. And it's, it almost goes back to that.

“We were speaking earlier, uh, it's like, I don't want to pair weak.”

I, that is the weakness. Yeah.

And I, you know, it's just like,

I had, like I said, when I had to come to terms with, I had two choices. You know, I can either quit the club or I can do. I can become a hypocrite and do the things that I was condemning other people for doing. And I chose to walk away.

You know, but anyways. I think this is a good place to end it. I think so, but before we do, okay. I'm going to give you something to chew on. All right.

That is the Jesus calling.

“So for dummies like me that can't understand the Bible.”

We have to resort to something like that. But what that is, and you can take it. Leave it. Do whatever you want. We'll take it.

But that is a short little couple of sentences every day. It's not a big lift. It's easy to understand. See if that tugs on you. Well, I will take it.

I appreciate it. I've enjoyed being here talking to you. I hope I made sense. There are some of the subjects of very delicate and a very personal. And, you know, it was an awesome interview.

It's been a long journey, my friend. But George, God has a plan for you, man. And you don't have a lot of time to figure it out. But I hope you do. Okay.

I appreciate that. And I'm going to take this. And I am going to, but my nose on it. See what it says. That's a lot to do.

Appreciate it. Thank you. No matter where you're watching the Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything.

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